it's out there and people can get to it and they can very organically be driven to what you're doing in a way that if you didn't have podcasting, a lot of people wouldn't have that voice the topics that are covered are so interesting and varied.
Sam Sethi:You know there are brilliant podcasts that have been created by independent people who have many things in their lives to do but who still manage to produce a podcast week in, week out or month in, month out.
Claire Waite Brown:Welcome to Creators from True Fans. I'm independent podcaster, Claire Waite Brown, and I'm Sam.
Sam Sethi:Sethi, the CEO of True Fans.
Claire Waite Brown:Each episode, we'll chat with an independent creator, whether a podcaster or musician, about their creative experiences.
Sam Sethi:And we'll answer questions from independent creators about the True Fans features that can help them with discovery, interactivity and monetization.
Claire Waite Brown:We'll get interactive and see what our listeners have been saying in the comments and super comments.
Sam Sethi:And discuss what's happening in the wider world. That could be a benefit to independent creators. Hi, Claire.
Claire Waite Brown:Hi Sam, how are you?
Sam Sethi:I'm very good Now. This week our featured podcast is Exhibitionistas. Claire, you interviewed the host.
Claire Waite Brown:Yes, Joana PR Neves is the host of Exhibitionistas and I chatted with her about her podcast, what it's about, why she wanted to make it and about some of the challenges that she experiences when producing and promoting a podcast which I'm sure many other creators will relate to. I was also able to give some thoughts on how a few features within True Fans could alleviate some of those frustrations. So here's our chat. Hello, hello, hello. I am here today with Joanna P R Neves. Well, at least that's how I say it, joanna, how do you say it?
Joana PR Neves:I say Joana P R Neves it, I say Joana P R Neves.
Claire Waite Brown:And that is from what part of the world? From Lisbon, Portugal. Oh, brilliant, okay, right, let's get into it. First, tell me, please, what is the name of your show and what is it all about.
Joana PR Neves:Right, so my show is called Exhibitionistas and it's about contemporary arts, is called Exhibitionistas and it's about contemporary arts, artist exhibitions and theory for everyone. So the idea is that it is approachable and not elitist as you would normally consider contemporary art to be.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, how do you decide which artists, which shows you're going to cover, and do you have guests ever?
Joana PR Neves:So we have three types of formats. So there's the exhibition discussions, which are always done with a co-host, so the issue is finding a co-host. I think that's one of the challenges. And then I have guests, sometimes people who can bring a different perspective on our idea of what an exhibition is or what the materials of making exhibitions can be Like. New Technologies was a big, successful episode recently. And then there's video slash audio essays where I read a text. There's images if you want to look at the images. There's images if you want to look at the images, and there's a sort of a flow of a conceptual, speculative narrative that is approachable, simple, that allows you to look sometimes at a work that might seem a bit cryptic and to understand from within what it might be about. And these are much shorter episodes. And then in third season I will bring episodes that are topical, that will go into contemporary arts through unexpected angles such as tattoos, for example.
Claire Waite Brown:I've got two questions now. One is actually about audience, and then the other is about audio and visual. So let's start with audience. Who were you thinking the audience would be? Who were you hoping or who did you feel that you wanted to communicate this with? That's such a good question.
Joana PR Neves:It is particularly interesting within the contemporary art field, that question because when I started the podcast I thought this is for people who think art is, or contemporary art is, horrible and they don't like it. And then I thought, no, they will never listen to your podcast. This is for art curious people who want to know a bit more. And then you start your podcast and you realize that for people to know your podcast you have to promote it. So there's, of course, the professional audience, there's the artists.
Joana PR Neves:There's a lot of artists who love listening to podcasts and who have the ideal setting they're working, they're in their studios, they press play, that's it. And then you have people who very organically get to your podcast who you don't know. I don't know who those people in Canada are, I have no clue. But I think for me the real challenge is to get to those people who want to know a bit more and who may be a bit intimidated by art podcasts, because art podcasts are usually very much within their own bubble and they kind of speak a jargon or they're interview based and it's just artists speaking. So I kind of feel like I have a sort of a unique project, which is that I deal with like mainstream art, so let's say, artists with lots of exposure, but at the same time I want it to be interesting, approachable for anyone to listen to, and I think that's my challenge.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, I understand that and you've partially answered. What was my next question when you say about artists in the studios pressing play? But then I'm going to turn into the challenges. What are the challenges of speaking about a visual experience?
Joana PR Neves:I would say and I hope you guys are all listening that it's the co-hosts who never describe the off work they're talking about. It's such a challenge because I always have a little pep talk, I explain and I say do you know, put yourself in the shoes of the person who's listening and not watching. Most people listen to audio. They don't go to the videos. They don't know why you feel so compelled by the artwork to think about your dad. They have no idea what the connection is, so you can't. Compelled by the artwork to think about your dad. They have no idea what the connection is, so you can't go to the subject before you describe the object.
Joana PR Neves:And that really is the challenge, because it's so pleasurable when someone describes something to you and you can close your eyes and just imagine what that thing is. Even for me, listening to someone describe visually something is such a pleasure, but it's so difficult. And even myself I forget sometimes. You know you're in the exhibition or you're talking about the artist's career and say, well, they worked with this artist, this major artist called Blah Blah in the Project Dada, and that was a breakthrough because they understood this. And then, if you don't know the artwork, I'm referencing.
Joana PR Neves:You then got to go back. Yeah, yes, and with everything you can't presume people know. So you have to be careful. If you say something is really crucial, you have to contextualize that can separate your audience right away. You know, if they listen and they say, okay, this person does not explain the references, this is for people who are really steeped in the art world and that's it.
Claire Waite Brown:So that's the challenge, yeah. And they're going to say, right, I've got no idea what she's talking about, I'm giving up. What frustrates you about podcasting? It might not be the process, it might be you know stuff that surrounds it.
Joana PR Neves:It might be the marketing of it, anything I think the frustrating thing is that you suddenly which is part of the really amazing thing about it, it's they go together, is that suddenly you have a platform where you can put your content out there in a way that is incredibly accessible and you have a voice. You develop your own voice. It's incredibly flexible, you can fine tune it as you go and so it's out there and people can get to it and they can very organically be driven to what you're doing in a way that if you didn't have podcasting, a lot of people wouldn't have that voice right, because media, I mean, how do you get to the big media and how do you get to have an article written every week somewhere you know it's radio or radio whatever. But at the same time, I think what frustrates me with it is that it is so accessible that promoting it becomes an ongoing, unrelenting obligation on social media and it has lots of limitations. That's suddenly celebrities come in, they have the money, they have the team, they have all the means and suddenly they are installed in a medium that will kind of shadow everybody around you.
Joana PR Neves:That's what I think on bad days. On good days, I think that's actually a good thing, because in my age bracket in my field and I think in Europe people are still very uneducated to what podcasting is. It's still weird with my art peers to say hi, hello, I'm an independent writer and curator and I'm a podcaster. And when I say podcaster, people kind of jump. They have sort of knee-jump, knee-jump reaction to oh, you're an influencer, what do you mean? Do you sell soap, you know? So, yeah, I think those are the frustrations and the but. So good to have this medium. It's so flexible and can do so many things. I have so many ideas.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, yeah, it's great. Do you have any financial support for your show and do you find that you have interactivity with your listeners? You know, rather than just seeing numbers, do you actually do your listeners communicate with you?
Joana PR Neves:That's a really good and important question, I think, and that's I think that's part of the frustrating thing in the promotion side of things, which is that and I attribute that to my milieu as well, to the field that I'm developing the podcast in as well which is that people in the art field don't really engage that much. They find it a bit ridiculous. It's not cool to go and say I love what you do because it's fandom, and in Europe people don't behave like that. Anyway. We're not fans, we're not Americans, and there's a huge distrust with social media, and podcasting is associated very closely with social media, and so that's a difficulty for sure.
Joana PR Neves:And I think with monetization it's the same issue whereby, first and foremost, when you're listening to a podcast, you're going about your life. There's no direct way of paying for it. There is the tradition of radio that you don't pay for, so you kind of feel that that should be free and you don't want to be a member or to pay every month, although you do pay a delivery every month, but that's a no-brainer. People don't hesitate, they pay for the Apple storage No-brainer, don't even think about it. But then compensating someone for the endless hours of work no, no, no, not going to do that, sorry. Do I sound a bit bitter? Because I am? No, no, no, not going to do that, sorry. Do I sound a bit bitter? Because I am, and I have this talk to people who listen to my podcast every two weeks. I tell them this, complaining and doing the cognitive dissonance of I'm not including you, but I know they don't pay for it and people go like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's true, we are like that. No connection whatsoever, doesn't, you know, get home to.
Joana PR Neves:So what I have to do is I have to send newsletters, do social media interventions I want to call them and also, in the art world, you will never get the Joe Rogan audience or the PewDiePie who started playing a game on YouTube and suddenly became a millionaire. That's not going to happen to you, you know. So you need a sponsor and because I came into this kind of like, I rolled into it. I'm taking my time to perfect it. I want to do a few videos on social media, funny ones, like a sort of editing thing, where I film myself editing and then I film myself going to the show and then I film myself reading and I feel myself taking notes, you know, watching a YouTube video and count the hours and say OK, this is what I do and this is the time it takes me. Some people still think that I just record a conversation.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah.
Joana PR Neves:Yeah, and that I just upload it. So I think there's an education to be done in regards to podcasting and to the necessity of accessibility.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, I completely understand. I do like the phrase you use in your show notes, which is something along the lines of you wouldn't leave the cafe without paying for the latte.
Joana PR Neves:That's what I have in my newsletter as well.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, brilliant. So I'm going to talk about a couple of those little things. Actually, with regards to True Fans, yes, I'm very curious. Curious. Do you know anything about podcasting 2.0? Features the term podcasting 2.0 I?
Joana PR Neves:know because you sent me the questions. So thank you for that. That's very clever, I gosh. I would have sounded like I lived under a rock, and also it gave me the opportunities. Clever because then you kind of get to know in your own terms. So that was really interesting research. I have to say so, I'm still a newcomer to this podcasting thing. So I learned a lot and I did hear about it and I did read about it. I had no idea what it was and I in my mind I just said that's for later, like it's in the fridge, and so because of the question, I thought it was really interesting.
Joana PR Neves:Because, first of all, for engagement, it's really interesting that it will be done across platforms. It's more democratic. But also the time it takes to reply to everyone in all the platforms you're in is mind boggling. I'm almost kind of happy people don't engage that much, because I keep thinking the day people are going to start doing it like how am I going to handle that? So that's great. And also the idea that you can tip, that you can. You know all of that is accessible, because what most people tell me is that you know, I listen to podcasts when I'm walking the dog or whatever, so cleaning, so it's back there in the computer. I have to go to your website. I mean, I'm not going to do that, and so that is really great.
Joana PR Neves:Is that the tagging of the musicians or the people that participate, I think is really important, because a lot of people, I think, like yourself, use the podcast for your other stuff right, and you also invite people that you want to promote, and so that's really important. And Spotify does it, for example, youtube does it automatically, and so I had this really outlandish, surrealist experience of big artist that the podcast is about, or their wife, who was also very famous. So I think this idea of tagging the collaborators, I mean whatever makes sense for each person's podcast, is really good, because it is taking us seriously. It's taking the medium seriously as well. I'm only a bit afraid of Bitcoin, to be honest. It's something that I'm very, very suspicious of, partly because I don't understand it. It's subjected to trends and to hearsay, to rumour. It's not currency, established currency in some way. Of course, again, I do not understand what I'm talking about. So I hope I answered your question.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, no, definitely Thank you for doing a bit of looking into it as well. So the Bitcoin thing is so often what I hear from people, I'm sure, and you were also talking about going home and having to do something, you know, having to go to buy me a coffee or whatever it is. Now I've been listening to your show while I've been driving and I have set up in TrueFans to pay five sats per minute I'm listening to. So five sats is like 0.01 pence, oh, interesting. So I don't have to then do anything. All I have to do is listen and some money goes into your TrueFans wallet.
Claire Waite Brown:Now, the way Sam's done it in TrueFans takes away that Bitcoin fear as well, because the TrueFans wallet runs at Bitcoin. But when you take it out, you can take it as a creator, you can take it to Stripe. Oh, ok, in TrueFans you've already claimed your show. So you have a wallet in TrueFans now and if someone like myself either sends you a super comment with some sats or fiat currency attached or, as I'm doing, streaming a small amount, it goes into your wallet and then at some point in the future, you can take that out in real money and take it to the shops where you can spend it on things, where I can buy my latte that I wouldn't steal.
Joana PR Neves:That's interesting. That's really interesting. That I didn't understand. Okay, that's really interesting. And so how does it work? So can I? Am I allowed to ask questions? So how does it work? Because then you have to host your podcast on True.
Claire Waite Brown:Fans. You joined True Fans when you sent the comment to creators to tell us about your show. And then, when you do that, true Fans makes you a wallet straight away yes, a digital wallet within True Fans. So then, when you've claimed your show and that show is attached to your name within True Fans, then anything that gets paid there just goes straight to that wallet. I had no clue.
Joana PR Neves:I will have a look. I'll have 2p in there. That's amazing.
Claire Waite Brown:The other thing as a podcaster, you can look at your show page on True Fans and you can look at the tab called Activity and it will show you that I became a fan and that I've streamed so many sats, so you can start in that one place. You can see that people may have commented or sent you sats and stuff like that. So once now, obviously nobody's going to know that unless people tell people about True Fans and about how it works. So that's another kind of that's another stage in the process of a bit of like dynamic content or something to say. Did you know you can do this in True Fans? But just have a look at your show on True Fans and you can see some of the things.
Claire Waite Brown:The other one I thought about for you was chapters, and chapters is a podcasting 2.0 feature that you can now you're the host that you're with now won't allow you to do that with them, but other hosting companies and you might think about this just for the future, just to have it in the back of your mind you can put a timestamp and then you can attach a picture to that bit that you're talking about. So when you're describing something, the people don't have to look at it, but if they wanted to, you could have a picture of that. That shows up on the podcast app and also you can have a link. If people wanted to go back to it later, they could see all your photos from that exhibition for example Very interesting.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, so there's this other really good show. It's called Podcasting 2.0 in Practice and it's hosted by Claire Waite-Brown, who I've heard is quite good at this kind of thing.
Claire Waite Brown:I don't know who that is and the episode I did with Daniel J Lewis about chapters. He explains what fun things you know you could do with it and I just think, as we spoke about that visual and audible connection, you can still listen and hear that description that you're giving, but then, if somebody actually wants to see it as well, they can that's so interesting because for professionals it's actually really, really useful, because I have lots of people who tell me oh my god, it's so great what you do because I'm can't be in london all the time.
Joana PR Neves:There was this really important show that you covered and you know I was listening. But yeah, it's such a shame that it doesn't have images, because then you have to look them up. Oh no, I was thinking, shoot, I listened to your podcast on Spotify. I should have listened on True Fans. Ok, I'll skip to True Fans now.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, do have a little look at that. Have a listen to Fan Zone and Podcasting 2.0 in practice. They're nice and short and easy to listen explains those things a bit more. So I'm glad I was able to introduce you to some of those concepts. Let's move on to how can people connect with you.
Joana PR Neves:So my podcast is called exhibitionistas and it's on all platforms and it's really good to follow on instagram because I do all the outtakes and like fun clips and also little video edits of the exhibitions I visit, my impressions as I come out of the exhibition that are really fresh and don't end up on the podcast. So I think that's a really good way to connect and to leave comments. And also there's the website exhibitionistespodcastcom where you can get in touch with me. Website exhibitionistespodcastcom where you can get in touch with me, work with me, that would be great. And also, if you want to leave comments, you know, or if you want to leave suggestions, that's a good way. I'm on Blue Sky as well. Everything's called Exhibitionist. I probably forgot lots of things, but Brilliant.
Claire Waite Brown:Thank you so much, Joanna. Another way people can comment on your show is through the True Fans app as well. There's a tab called comments or there's a little speech mark icon and people can comment and communicate directly with you on the True Fans app.
Joana PR Neves:I forget, of course, it's so fascinating. The problem is that my problem is that now you're giving me another thing to research and I know there's a rabbit hole there and I'm going to fall into it very, very quickly. So, yeah, they're good, but that's good, it's good stuff I think the markets and the industry is evolving and we need to find a way for it to exist in a good way.
Sam Sethi:There we go, joanna, really interesting from Exhibitionistas. Thank you, claire, for doing that interview. Go, joanna, really interesting from Exhibitionistas. Thank you, claire, for doing that interview. And you can hear more from that interview at the end of this episode of Creators, where Joanna talks about her art background and her actual podcasting process, including how she fits in around her full-time work schedule. Gosh, yes, that's the life of an independent podcast creator, isn't it?
Claire Waite Brown:Exactly. If you'd like to chat with us about your independent podcast or your music, send a comment or super comment in True Fans to any Creators episode by clicking on the speech bubble icon or on the comments tab.
Sam Sethi:Time for the questions. Claire, We've been collecting the questions that listeners have sent us in. Which questions have you chosen to ask me this week?
Claire Waite Brown:Well, this is an important question for podcast creators wanting to make the most of everything that they can do on True Fans, and it actually relates back to my interview with Joanna, who has already done this and whose show has collected some micropayments, and that question is how do I claim my show?
Sam Sethi:So, once you've created your account on True Fans, you find your podcast. Click on it, you get to the podcast page and on the cover art itself for the podcast, you'll see a little icon, an exclamation mark. Click on that icon and it will pop up a box that says enter the email that you have within your RSS feed. Now, a couple of years back, we had a problem where people were spamming RSS feeds so all the hosts took out the email by default, which is a shame. But you can actually go back to your host in the host dashboard and have your email added temporarily for 24 or 48 hours, republish your podcast and then you'll see that we have it then available in TrueFans and you can enter your email. Now that's the current way of doing it. It's a bit messy because clearly, if you want to claim your podcast, you want to do it straight away, and you're like oh, I have to now wait, do I? Well, we're working on a new method called the verify tag, so all the hosts currently support it, and the idea is we'll give you a little code in TrueFans that's unique to your podcast. You then go to your creator's dashboard, add that code in and then we will be able to read in your RSS feed that code and verify that you own that podcast. So it's a little step to claim your podcast. We have to be secure that you are the owner. We don't want someone else taking over your podcast, making changes and then that will be disastrous.
Sam Sethi:But once you've claimed it, you go to your creator's dashboard. You'll be able to see your podcast. How many people listen to your podcast, who's the most active? Who listened to it first? How long did people listen to it in total? What was the average time each listener listened to your podcast episodes? How much money were paid, and so more. So all that is called first party data. So I highly highly recommend if you have a podcast, you go and claim it. And of course, the other thing claire is you can go and set up your true fans wallet in your creator's dashboard and then start to have your fans pay you directly into your wallet.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, it's brilliant. It's absolute box of delights. The creator's dashboard.
Sam Sethi:Excellent. Now, my favourite time of the week it's Fanbox. This is where we talk to people who've given us comments Any comments that we had.
Claire Waite Brown:So one of the comments is from Joanna P R Neves, who said I can't see my comment here so I'll repost. I agree that celebs doing podcasts is a bummer. You're saying out loud what everyone is thinking. That's in relation to a question you asked me in the last episode. I have a podcast called Exhibitionistas about contemporary art and I'd love to be featured and, as you know, because of that comment, joanna has been featured. And we also had a comment from Christine Gritmon Hi, claire, excited to see this new project from you and, of course, I'd love for let's Talk About Brand to get involved. So Christine is someone I have met through the Digital Women Network and I have sent her an email with a link to how to come chat with me about let's Talk About Brand. So, christine, go to my diary, let's book a date.
Sam Sethi:Excellent, this is how you do it. So if anyone else, let's go back over it, claire.
Claire Waite Brown:Anyone else wants to come on the show as a featured guest. What do they need to do lower than that? A selection of tabs, and one of these is called comments. Click on either of those and it's really clear how you can leave a comment for that episode and if you want to, you can turn that into a super comment by attaching a little bit of money to it.
Sam Sethi:I like the sound of that money.
Claire Waite Brown:Sam, let's go out into the real world. Have you spotted anything this week that independent creators and their fans might also want to know about?
Sam Sethi:yeah, there's a couple of stories that I think will really resonate with people. The first one is a report by paul mandel. The big thing claire at the moment for poor independent podcast creators is should they do video, video, video video. It seems to be the mantra right, and that's because everyone says YouTube is dominating podcasts. Well, signal Hill Insights, where Paul works has said there is evidence that actually we are still using an audio first platform and it's time to tone down the discourse or the you must do video. So that's the good news, I think, for independent podcast creators who have been worried or scratching their heads about how or when they should do video.
Sam Sethi:Video is interesting and I think video works when you've got something more than just two talking heads to do. But I think if you're just having two talking heads, yes, be on YouTube if you want to. I mean, it's a large platform, it has an algorithm, but also be aware that I don't think the world and their dog are going to beat their door to your podcast just because you're on YouTube. So, yes, good news, youtube isn't the only place where you can do podcasting.
Claire Waite Brown:Brilliant. I completely agree, sam. There is a lot of pressure on us independent podcasts to do more work, and do we really want to do more work? I tend to use YouTube when I have a bit of spare time to maybe put some highlights up just for the algorithm point of view, but I am an audio girl through and through.
Sam Sethi:Yeah, and I think you know, when you're driving, when you're at the gym, when you're walking, when you're on the train or when you're busy doing other things, video does not work. And there's a place for radio, there's a place for TV, there's a place for podcasting audio and there's a place for YouTube video.
Claire Waite Brown:But it's good to have that report, I think, to give a bit of reassurance.
Sam Sethi:Yeah, to counter all the arguments which, to be fair, has come from YouTube PR, so it's nice to have independent people looking at it and saying, no, that's not quite true. Now, one of the other things that I think podcasters are worried about is actually when they have to do a formalised script. We are recording today using riverside. We have used dscript as well in the past, but dscript have just come out with a new feature called a teleprompter, which we all know what one is. But it's nice now that you can actually, if you are having to do a formalized I don't know podcast ad, because you're the host and it's a host read ad. Maybe you need to read it out, and now you can have a teleprompter within Descript to help you just read out while you're working through your video.
Sam Sethi:Cool, the next story that I thought might be really interesting and I think it's great news Goalhanger, which is the biggest independent podcast creator in the UK. You might have seen. The rest is football, the rest is entertainment, the rest is money. They are now announcing a new free, monthly masterclass. You can join sessions with the company to learn more about being a producer, an editor, commercial leads. These will all be streamed live and you can watch them or listen to them free as well. So that's great. Thank you to Goalhanger for doing that. It just brings more knowledge into the marketplace for all the hardworking independent podcast creators.
Claire Waite Brown:Can I ask you a question about that, Sam? What is an independent podcast studio?
Sam Sethi:So they are not funded. They are not part of a larger group. They're not owned. So Wondery, for example, is not an independent podcast creator. They are part of Amazon. Audible is the same, and there are many others. So, for example, there's a massive group called PodX now which owns Listen, which owns many other companies. Platform Media is one of those as well. So they're not independent. They are conglomerated into a larger group. So they're not independent. They are conglomerated into a larger group, whereas somebody like goal hanger has not taken external funding. They are totally independent. They're not part of the bbc or any other bigger group, and that's why they can still call themselves an indie podcast studio brilliant, got it, thank you so, finally, claire, the para podcast awards yes, I have put my teeth back in have been launched.
Sam Sethi:It's the third year for the awards, which honour the best and most compelling voices in the paranormal, supernatural and unexplained podcasting genres.
Claire Waite Brown:That's my cup of tea. I like those kind of shows. Talking about awards, sam, while we were at the podcast show, the shortlist for the International Women's Podcast Awards were announced. I'm actually going to the awards ceremony tomorrow night because I was lucky enough to be a judge for one of the categories and I wanted to have a little look through the shortlist for, obviously, some independent shows. I asked you about independent studio and a definition of that, because I've been kind of grappling with what a definition of an independent podcast is Right and I borrowed some words from the website of the Independent Podcast Awards. Entries for those close on June, the 19th, I believe. So thank you to those guys for giving me a bit of help with my research. I looked through the shortlist for shows of the IWPAs, for shows that do not have financial support from an organisation such as a publishing company, production company or brand which is what you alluded to for Goldhanger and is not fronted by a high profile celebrity for whom the podcast is one of many revenue streams. So that's how I kind of guided myself as I was looking through the shortlist. Now there are probably more here than I'm going to mention. So if you're one of those and I don't mention. You. Send us a comment or even a super comment and I will correct that next week. But there are a few independent shows I saw there and they're up against shows that have financial backing, that maybe have access to well-known guests or big stories. Perhaps a team of production staff to lighten the workload, perhaps a team of production staff to lighten the workload. So these indie shows who don't have that backing have done such a good job and should be very proud to be on this shortlist.
Claire Waite Brown:The first one that pops out to me are from people I know the Story of Woman and Blue Mondays. They jumped out at me so I'm really pleased for Anna Stockline, who's been a guest on Creativity Found, and Vicki Stevenson. Other shows I spotted include Made For Us, bump To Business Owner Retirement Rebel. The Scars when Life Gives you Lemons. Actually I met Emma Levy at the podcast show. That show sounds amazebobs.
Claire Waite Brown:Why Mums Don't Jump Tales from the Singing Porch Mag Hags, shelley and the Can Do Kids. My Spouse has Dementia. Parky Conversations meaning Parkinson's that's what that one is about. Public Health is Dead. Two Lives the Adult Ballet Studio. Grownups doing ballet again right up my street. My Cotton Patch Moment Random and Wonderful the Pink State and the Cancer Caregiver. So those are the ones I'm going to be really looking out for tomorrow to see if they actually win, and good luck to them.
Claire Waite Brown:I'm just going to mention another awards. If that's okay, sam, go for it. The True Crime Awards winners were announced on June 5th in London and I'm very pleased to say that the independently produced podcast Watching Two Detectives won True Crime Rookie of the Year for its first series entitled If Tomorrow Never Comes. So the True Crime Awards celebrate exceptional true crime content from creators and producers across the screen, podcast and publishing sectors. True Detectives is made by Sarah Ferris, whose podcast Conning the Con I recommended on episode three of Creators from True Fans, and she's also a guest on podcasting 2.0. In practice, she's brilliant. In the series Watching New Detectives, retired Australian police detectives Scott Rogan and Peter Hogan revisit cases they were involved in bringing new insights and revelations. Sarah also weaves in interviews with other police officers as well as family and friends connected to the case. So listeners should expect to hear the human side of a true crime story. As you know, sam, I'm always amazed by Sarah's storytelling and production value. So congrats, sarah, well deserved.
Sam Sethi:Yes, well deserved indeed. I have to say this is interesting, it's an eye opener, and I like finding this side of podcasting because I'm on the other side of podcasting the geeky side and I'm always looking at tech and new technology, and these are really interesting to understand how audio and podcasting, you know, the topics that are covered are so interesting. They're varied. You know, I laughed at why mums don't jump. I have a wife with two children and I exactly understand that.
Sam Sethi:I think you know when we, when we ask often where is the voice of women in podcasting? Because it's often men dominating it. I think it's because men talk about the nuts and bolts of podcasting, the bits and bytes of it all, and these are the much more thoughtful, heartfelt stories that I think we need to promote. This is part of why we wanted to do this show, which is to bring to life the fact that it isn't all about Joe Rogan, but there are brilliant podcasts that have been created by independent people who have many things in their lives to do but who still manage to produce a podcast week in, week out, or month in, month out.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, and they're very often as well. Telling the stories of other people and sharing those stories helps the listeners who may be in similar situations. It's really giving encouragement for people to understand that you can do things, and here's some stories to help you along the way. Oh, yes, I love my indies.
Sam Sethi:So do I, and that's it for this week, claire. Our audio is recorded and edited using Riverside this week, and we're hosted by our friends Buzzsprout.
Claire Waite Brown:You can support this show by streaming sats from your True Fans wallet or leaving us a super comment. And if you're still not sure what those mean, have a listen to our sister show Fan Zone, where we explain everything you need to know in really really short episodes. Better still, you can become a monthly supporter of this show.
Sam Sethi:And if you'd like to advertise or sponsor this show, please email me, sam@ truefans. fm, for further details. And that's it, I guess, claire, till next week.
Claire Waite Brown:Bye, Don't forget. You can keep listening to hear more from this episode's featured creator. Why did you want to start this podcast and how did you come up with that format? Did you do a lot of planning to come up with those ideas?
Joana PR Neves:It's interesting because I started with this idea that I really wanted to do a podcast about contemporary art and that was it. And for a long time I kept the idea in the fridge and I didn't quite have the hang of it. I didn't know exactly what the format would be. And as soon as I found the format, which was in the beginning, an art specialist, an art lover who doesn't work in the art field, go and see exhibitions separately, talk about them for the podcasts, that was it. And then I was on the loose. It was everything just kind of came together in some ways, Because I knew that the podcast is something that I would have the skill set to do, but also that it provided a really interesting tool to connect with audiences in a completely different way than we usually do in contemporary art. So that was kind of the thinking behind it.
Claire Waite Brown:Tell me about you, then.
Joana PR Neves:What's your background and I'm artistic director of Draw in commercial galleries to being an independent curator, to writing, to doing my PhD and do tons of research and really dense academic writing. So all of that has given me the assurance and the composure to say, yeah, I think I have something to say and I think I might have some angles here to explore.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, I wonder if you can look at the exhibition differently, because you're thinking about your audience and not just yourself. So it might open up the way you experience a show in a different way.
Joana PR Neves:Completely it. Actually, I was always like that. I don't like good art. I think that the idea of the masterpiece is something that we've inherited from this very old traditional way of looking at art history. That's not what drives me to art at all, but there's always that sense of oh, I'm not someone who likes photography, or I'm not someone who likes this, or I don't like that kind of style, and I've always tried to overcome the notion of style or your natural penchant to go for something, because that's not what art is about.
Joana PR Neves:But art is aesthetic, isn't it? It has an appearance, it has beauty somewhere in there, and so it has become a really beautiful experience to be able to understand where the artist is coming from, because I have to explain it, I have to put it out there in an understandable way for the audience, in an understandable way for the audience, and it has transformed the way I see and I experience things, and I feel that for the audience and for myself, I think it's some and people tell me that it's a transformative experience and people tell me oh, it's funny, because ever since you talked about that artist now I've seen this one, which is kind of similar, and even though it's not something I navigate towards. I feel like I get it and that, for me, is so good. You know, it really is what art's all about, you know.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, and it's wonderful to have that medium to be able to communicate that as well with anybody, to be able to communicate that as well with anybody anywhere could find that podcast and find what you're saying. Let's talk about the podcasty side of podcasting. With regards to, like, what kind of equipment you use, what kind of I don't know your hosting companies, how do you record? Give me a little rundown of your podcasting process.
Joana PR Neves:All right. So I record at home and remotely. I use Riverside because Riverside is part well, comes with your Spotify hosting platform, so I use both. I started with Zencastr and I used Zencastr to record and publish the episodes through Zencastr and I thought, oh, I may as well go to Spotify. Someone told me that it was for free and that Riverside was for free as well, which is not true. Don't fall for that one, because they only do five hours of free recording a month, which, if you're really podcasting, is not enough.
Joana PR Neves:It's funny because it's so easy to set up, right, you want to set up your tech, it's easy. You have a computer, you have a mic, you have good headphones and that's it, you're done. Then it's a question of whether you use Riverside to edit or if you edit outside, using visuals and doing videos, because Spotify has very clear instructions of what is going to give you visibility. So, to promote your podcast, they really challenge you to do clips, for example, for your podcast, to have a trailer, to do images, and so, because I'm so new at this and because it is a niche podcast in some ways, but also could be major, like everyone loves art and it could really be something that could become, within that niche, global.
Joana PR Neves:Let's say, you know, you have people everywhere want to know about artists and art, etc. So I thought I may as well just do what they say. And also, it's art, so maybe people would love to have visuals, because I'm talking about exhibitions that some people are not going to experience. I went for it and in that sense, I lost FL Studios, which was the software I used to edit sound in a really precise I'm a bit of a maniac with sound in a really precise way and Riverside I don't know if you want me to go into the minutiae of things, but Riverside is very different and you're editing sound and image, so it's a whole other thing.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah, what was I going to say next? I don't know. Time, that was it. Time, time. How do you fit this in to the rest of your life? You sound a bit like me. I'm overly on on the sound thing. I will spend a lot of time on editing and you are doing more background work than I am as well, and you've got quality.
Joana PR Neves:It could, because when you're doing a podcast solo, with the format that I have, with research behind, etc. You're doing basically the job of five people. So you have to be very mindful of that, I think. And you know, fitting in the podcast just means that I'm very lucky to have a podcast that has a theme that bleeds into the rest of what I do, and so of course I use what I'm doing, the artists I'm working, I mean use.
Joana PR Neves:They are the subject in some ways, and I also tried to focus on exhibitions because I was losing the passion to go to exhibitions because they kind of became a thing of oh, have you seen this exhibition? And then I would visit and I remember very clearly one day leaving the show and thinking I've done this, Like I've done this, Did you do the tape, Did you do the check, you know, and not even realizing where I stood and exploring that experience, and I was kind of getting, yeah, losing the passion. It was all about checklists, and so I'm lucky that this fits into the holistically in my work obligation schedule etc. But it did add a lot of extra time of work.
Claire Waite Brown:Yeah.
Joana PR Neves:For sure, for sure yeah.