The Archery Project
Welcome to The Archery Project where we sit down and have raw, unfiltered conversations discussing archery and bowhunting adventures in depth through the perspectives of unique individuals from all different backgrounds.
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The Archery Project
The Instinctive Hunt: Traditional Archery, Turkeys, & Mountain Lions
A wooden bow in hand, watching an arrow's perfect flight, and feeling that connection to something ancient and primal—this is the world of traditional bowhunting that Joe Long introduces us to in this captivating conversation. From his earliest memories of fashioning homemade bows as a child to becoming an accomplished traditional archer, Joe shares how the "mystical flight of the arrow" captured his imagination and never let go.
We dive deep into the technical aspects that make traditional archery uniquely challenging yet rewarding. Joe explains why he prefers different feather lengths for various hunting scenarios, the advantages of hunting from a saddle versus a lock-on stand, and how shooting a traditional bow can actually make you more deadly with a compound. For anyone curious about making the transition to traditional archery, his practical insights offer a roadmap for success.
The conversation takes a thought-provoking turn when we explore the psychological and spiritual dimensions of extended hunting trips. Both hunters describe a remarkable phenomenon where, after several days in the wilderness, ancient instincts awaken—heightened awareness, sharper senses, and a profound connection to the natural world that simply isn't possible during shorter outings. This reconnection to our evolutionary heritage as hunters offers a powerful counterpoint to our increasingly digital, disconnected lives.
Conservation issues take center stage as Joe articulates the critical importance of science-based wildlife management, particularly regarding Colorado's proposed ban on mountain lion hunting. His measured explanation of predator-prey dynamics challenges common misconceptions and highlights how proper hunting regulations contribute to ecosystem health rather than harm it. We finish with masterful turkey hunting tactics, from decoy setups to calling strategies, that will have you eager for spring season.
Whether you're a seasoned traditional archer or simply curious about this ancient pursuit, this episode reminds us that hunting represents something far more meaningful than just a successful harvest—it's about conservation, connection, and carrying forward the wisdom of our ancestors. Join us next time for more authentic outdoor conversations!
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What's going on everybody? Welcome to the show. This is episode six. Today's guest is Joe Long. He's a good friend of mine who has an avid passion for the outdoors, hunting and specifically traditional bow hunting. He was born in Houston, texas, but raised in Georgia. Joe grew up hunting the mountains and foothills of North Georgia and Eastern Tennessee, mainly hunting white-tailed deer, turkey pigs and coyotes. Today we're going to talk to Joe about his passion for hunting, discuss the traditional side of bow hunting. We're also going to speak about the proposal in Colorado which seeks to ban mountain lion hunting and the negative impacts that come along with it, and, finally, some of his tactics for turkey hunting.
Speaker 1:Enjoy the episode, joe. Thanks for coming by. Man, I know you're busy. I appreciate you taking the time to come by and sit down and talk with me a little bit on the show. This is episode six, I believe, so still new, but we're up and running. Things are coming along, getting better each episode. But you know I want to sit down and talk to you a little bit. You're kind of my go-to when it comes to all things outdoors and hunting and especially now the traditional archery that I'm starting to dabble in a little bit. Um, because you're you are the traditional guy for me, you're the go-to traditional guy. I appreciate that. So you've, um, you know, kind of steered me in the right direction for everything. And now this, I'm kind of getting into this um, I kind of wanted to get your take on it. Like what was the, the thing that drew you to the traditional archery side of things versus compound bow or even, you know, guns?
Speaker 2:Uh, so basically, I grew up in grew up playing around the woods. A lot, of, a lot of kids my age back then wanted to play Nintendo, good stuff like that. Um, I wanted to be outside. Um, so being part of that being outside is building your own bows out of whatever you can find, whether it be bamboo, canes, stuff that you're not supposed to use around the house, right Stuff like that. So me and my brother are big into running around the woods cowboys and Indians, stuff like that. I want to say I was probably seven or eight when I actually magically built a bow that actually worked and found an arrow that had feathers on it already and I just sat there and I put one shot through it and that arrow just kind of flew perfectly. I'm like, well, that's what it's supposed to look like.
Speaker 1:It typically doesn't go that well with your own homemade bow.
Speaker 2:It wasn't kicking around or anything like that, and it was just perfect. And then from that point on I kind of became obsessed with. A lot of people call it the mystical flight of the arrow. If you listen to Ted Nugent or read any Fred Bear books, that's what they call it. So Ted Nugent or reading the Fred Bear books, that's what they call it. So from that point on I started asking for bows for Christmas, got a few older fiberglass bows and things like that. We'd just run around the woods shooting rabbits or trying to shoot rabbits, trying to shoot squirrels.
Speaker 1:So you've been shooting trad bows forever, so I did a shooting trad bows forever.
Speaker 2:So I did it a lot as a kid. However, when I got older teenage years, I kind of put it down around probably 12 or 13, because I became enamored with other things, as most young men do sports and things of that nature but I still hunted, so I would mostly hunt with a gun. I never really picked up a compound until I was probably 17 or 18 years old, just dabbling with it.
Speaker 2:But I gun hunted, go out, shoot the first thing. I saw all normal teenage type hunting um. You know, shoot the first thing. I saw normal teenage type hunting um. But where I really got into the hunting aspect of it um was after I'd gotten into compound um a little bit and shot a few deer with it with a compound and then started getting. I don't want to over-inflate myself, but it became a little too easy. With a compound Deer would walk in 40, 50 yards in the woods. A lot of people are like no, you're not supposed to do that, you're not supposed to shoot that way, archery equipment, whatever. I did it and it worked. Now I killed some deer that way and uh, then that's when I started looking more towards the traditional.
Speaker 1:So where did you get your start at hunting at? Was it in Texas?
Speaker 2:No, no, um, it was in Georgia. Starting hunting was like a mission, previously running around with a, with a, with a bow, trying to shoot rabbits, trying to shoot squirrels. Um, that's where my son's at right now. That's a great age. I find myself doing that now.
Speaker 1:I'm almost 40 yeah, that's like me and him go out. He's like, hey dad, uh, you want to go squirrel or rabbit hunting? I'm like, yeah, let's go, absolutely let's, let's do this. Let's see what happens. Yeah, it's a blast man, um, but so now you primarily just shoot traditional, right, I mean you have a compound bow though I have a compound.
Speaker 1:I bought it from you, so I know yeah, so I I know you've got a compound bow, but I rarely see the compound bow. It's like I I typically I think I see it. You bring it out whenever you go to new york. Is that when it is? I do yeah um so it's got like its own special purpose. It's got a special purpose um.
Speaker 2:We have an arrangement with with some farmers up there that they want us um to kill those as many dares you can. If we have the opportunity to shoot them, shoot um. So that's when the compound comes out, because we're primarily field hunting um taking longer shots if need be. And then also the time of year we go up north, it is raining on us a lot. So when it comes to traditional gear feathers, wet feathers no way.
Speaker 1:So what about when it comes to you talking about feathers? What about the new, like trad veins that are like a synthetic material? Do you run those ever?
Speaker 2:I have. I have used them. I've got a few arrows fleshed up with them right now. Um actually hunted with them quite a bit last year. Um, what I've found um to be an issue with those is durability, really, um walking through thick stuff like we have around here, um. They'll easily be torn by briar's brush oh, I could see that it doesn't matter what you use as uh as an adhesive they're. They're really flimsy. They don't have a really good thick um portion of the vein like a normal vein.
Speaker 1:Compound vein would come with like you're talking about the channel, where it actually adheres to the shaft itself.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, very thick area to really get a good adherence to the arrow. So smallest imperfection in the glue or smallest, smallest piece of brush that snags it, it's going to tear Right, I've learned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so whenever you come to so, just getting on to the the arrow side of things you typically run feathers. Is there a feather length that you prefer, or is that based off of kind of application, what you're doing, based off?
Speaker 2:application Based off application. So I've found if you run a, if you use a smaller, smaller fletching two and a half to three inch feather if you use a smaller fletching 2 1⁄2 to 3-inch feather and do a forefletch, that it is affected by wind a lot less. If you're shooting a traditional arrow, a traditional bow, you'll find shooting in the wind becomes an issue because your arrow is not going as fast.
Speaker 2:It's not as efficient as a compound in the wind. So shooting at a crosswind, you're going to see that arrow kick out, whichever way the wind is blowing. If you're shooting a smaller feather and your bow is tuned correctly, you'll see a lot less wind drift, if you will.
Speaker 2:As well as if your feathers get wet. Take an arrow fletched with three five-inch feathers, douse it in water, shoot it On a tuned bow. You're going to see a lot of accuracy issues with that. Your point of aim, point of impact is going to be way off.
Speaker 1:Even at like. I mean, are we talking about, like, greater than 10 yards, Because that's about where I'm at with the treadmill.
Speaker 2:Within 10 or 15 yards, you're going to see a difference, really. Yeah, because it's taking that big, huge feather. It's basically soaking up water, right, it's adding weight to the back of your arrow which is going to throw the tune of that arrow off. You've arrow off, you put small fletchings, smaller feathers, put it on the back of an arrow, douse in water.
Speaker 1:That's less surface area that is being soaked with water.
Speaker 2:Less weight, less difference, to your tune, right?
Speaker 1:okay, that's what I found right. So whenever you, because you shoot, do you shoot long bows, too long bows, recurve bows. I mean you got a mix is? I mean, do you change out your feathers based off of the bows themselves too? Like I'll run, I only run a. I like I prefer a five inch feather on a recurve bow versus, you know, I don't know, a three inch feather on a long bow so I do have.
Speaker 2:I do shoot both styles of bow, if you will. I usually hunt big game at least deer hunt with a recurve, because I personally find that I shoot a recurve better than I do a longbow.
Speaker 1:Why is that? What is the? I've never messed with longbows, ever so. I have no idea.
Speaker 2:So I do a lot of testing, I do a lot of shooting, I do a lot of shooting. That's my wife. I'm in the yard a lot, but I think for me it is the weight difference, the weight factor. A recurve has got a solid riser, a thick riser. Your longbows are usually smaller and lighter, but personally I find myself enamored with longbows because of the, the tradition of it?
Speaker 1:It's just like as primal as it gets, isn't it Like stick and string?
Speaker 2:It is. You take a I mean you take a longbow some five inch feathers, a four inch. I prefer the four inch feathers on a longbow because I don't like the big long fives. But I like the look and traditional can be about look. Sometimes I like the look of a four inch feather on an arrow. Take that long bow into the woods. There's something primal about it when you walk in with it yeah, even if you can't hit anything with it.
Speaker 2:So you feel like you're, you're there, you're getting back, uh, to your ancestral roots.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see that, Even with just going from compound bow just to like I got a Satori, now that I've been messing with right, just going to that, I mean it's such a learning curve it's very, very difficult for me to be consistent with it because there's the draw length. I mean it doesn't roll over and stop at you know 28 and a half inches. You know finding my anchor point, anchoring correctly. Uh, I've just really struggled with and you know I talked to to Ruben. I'm like hey, dude, what's your draw length? Supposedly, whenever you shoot a your, you know, your your trad bow, um, he's like I, I'm drawing it like 29 and a half inches or something like that. I'm like I don't understand how, because whenever I measured mine, I'm 27 and a half and they're like you're probably collapsing somewhere and I'm like I don't feel like it though so there's, there's the mechanic.
Speaker 2:There are some mechanics to shooting a traditional bow, and he was probably right with that. You're probably collapsing under the weight because, like you said, you don't have cams, you don't have let off right the farther you draw that bow, the greater the resistance you're going to get from the bow right so a lot of guys have that issue shooting heavier bows.
Speaker 2:Um, they'll come to full draw. They don't, and their shoulder the front shoulder start collapsing under the weight of the bow. So they'll start doing this and one little movement like that is going to throw off your shot.
Speaker 1:And it throws everything off Like it's dramatic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so getting to the Reuben thing, like that's something that me and him actually worked through together and it's good that he has mentioned that to you. Yeah, set that front shoulder, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's that's what we talked about. And so one of the things he told me it's almost like you kind of flare your lat out and is that, is that how you kind of eliminate that from collapsing is just pushing your lat out, almost flexing it.
Speaker 2:Exactly Just flexing that, that the lateral muscle you you probably can define it better than I can the lat, yes, pushing it out. Set your shoulder and then that's just bone-on-bone contact between you and the riser, and don't let him move.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that's one thing that I've just really had an issue with is because the more he says it, the more I'm like okay, I've got to think through every aspect of this shot from beginning to end, If not something's off.
Speaker 2:And it's funny you say that A lot of guys I talk about the traditional stuff. I see people talking about traditional stuff A lot of guys are shooting compounds like I just can't do it. I can't do it what? They don't realize shooting a traditional bow, whether you hunt with it or not, in your yard, in your garage, on your personal range, taking the time to learn how to shoot a traditional bow correctly.
Speaker 1:Work out a shot process.
Speaker 2:Work through your shot process. Be intentional with your shot process. If you can shoot that traditional bow 15 yards accurately, pick up your compound, you're going to be invincible yeah.
Speaker 1:I can see that.
Speaker 2:Because you're teaching yourself the correct mechanics and your mind is working through everything and your body's doing it in sync at the same time, right. So that's one thing that I've found personally and that I've seen in other people is, after shooting traditional for so long I can pick up a compound and make a stupid long shot, even after not shooting it for a year?
Speaker 1:Right, cause you can just work through that process that efficiently. Yeah, yeah. So what about? So, whenever you are, whenever you've got your um, your bow, you're in the woods and you're hunting out of a stand, you typically hunt out of a saddle, right, correct? So do you ever find any issues with angles? Whenever with a traditional bow versus a compound bow, do you have any like because the traditional bow is so much longer? Right, we're talking like 62 inches versus, you know, a 32 inch bow. Do you ever have any issues or or shot angle angle issues whenever you? You know, like I can't take the shot with a traditional bow, like I could with a compound bow.
Speaker 1:Short answer no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for one reason with a traditional bow I'm not having to level out like you are a compound drawback. Why your peep? Why yourself, your peep acquire your sight housing, acquire your level, level out. I find it harder to shoot a compound bow out of a saddle than I do a traditional bow at least from zero to 25, 30 yards. Okay, with that traditional bow, if I have to make a weird angle, I mean I can dang near, turn that thing from.
Speaker 1:You know, horizontal Right, turn the thing flat and shoot it If I need to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've actually had to do that to get in between branches, to get my arrow to go in between branches, trying to shoot through thick stuff, and that all comes with like practicing those angles. I mean, you can get in your yard, I'll take a. I'll take a normal chair and set it in front of me and then I'll take my bow, lean over and basically get my bow horizontal and shoot under the chair. Um, it's just, it's. It's teaching yourself shot angles and knowing what that arrow is going to do when it comes off your bow. When it's being shot horizontal, it's not going to do the same thing. It's being shot as if you're holding vertical. Um, so that comes to practice. But that was the long answer to add to my short answer. But no, I don't really have to worry about the angles as much as I do with a compound, I feel do you?
Speaker 1:so?
Speaker 1:I miss, I hunt up a saddle too and I hunt out of a lock on.
Speaker 1:So one of the things like I feel like I have more shot opportunities I don't know if that's the right word when I'm hunting out of a saddle versus with my lock on, cause, like whenever I'm sitting here with and I'm, you know I'm, I'm five, eight, you know it's both 62 inches I was messing around my yard and I was up in a tree sitting on the lock on, up against against the tree, and that's one of the things I do like about the lock on is I feel like I move less right. I feel like I can, I can kind of blend into the, the tree itself. You know, I try to get a little bit wider tree. I can sit back. I don't move with a saddle. Maybe I move a little bit more, maybe I don't Um, but when I'm sitting in that lock on and I go to draw the um, the traditional bow, I'll notice out I have to come out really way far out to get the angle to not hit the bow on my actual stand.
Speaker 2:Uh, that is an issue for a lot of I don't. I don't, I'm not trying to rub it in, but I'm a little bit taller. Yeah, I've never really had that issue before. But yes, with the saddle I've also found that. You know, when you're standing straight up and say the deer is right under you, you just draw the compound point that straight down, like that, instead of bending at the waist. What's that arrow going to do? Right, with a saddle?
Speaker 1:well, I mean mean so standing on your lock on you, pull back shooting with a compound you're supposed to bend down your waist right out of a saddle.
Speaker 2:I found I don't have to lean any with my waist, unless it's unless the animal is directly under me, right, and that's just causing my body to need to lean that way because I'm having to change how I'm shooting, right. That's one thing that I enjoy and that I've found works for me with a saddle is I'm not having to think about the lean as much. It's also more natural it is. It is Correct. I've missed some deer not leaning, standing in a lock-on or a climber before I started using the saddle exclusively Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's pros and cons to everything and, like I said, the reason I like the lock-on well, I've used it more this year than I have and I kind of use it as like a hybrid right. Sometimes I'll I'll stand, sometimes I'll sit, um, I just like. I feel like um whenever I. I'm just more still because I got busted twice last year just for the littlest I didn't feel like I've I should have, but just a little littlest fidget and it's like boom, they, they've done some of my art. I'm going, let's fidget, and it's like boom, they busted me. So I'm like, all right, I'm gonna sit here and I'm not gonna move until I have the perfect opportunity. And I guess that just comes with woodsmanship skills too. Right, just knowing when you can't. But typically I would move whenever I didn't see them and then they bust me from off in the distance. I'm like, oh, there goes my hunt that has happened to me as well.
Speaker 2:Um, but what you can do with those experiences is learn from them. Right, learn from them. If you're going to be hunting out of a saddle which is something that I have learned to do exclusively when I'm in the saddle is I'm going to get myself into some back cover? Yes, I do, and I hardly. Just, by the nature of of the deer that I hunt, I don't go into the woods to hunt a deer. I go into the woods to hunt the deer.
Speaker 2:Um, usually I'm going after a specific type of buck and those big, mature deer are not going to find themselves during daylight hours in big timber. Big timber meaning wide-open timber. They'll skirt the outskirts of it, they'll use the thick stuff right on the edge of it to cruise, look for, does wind check? But, um, I'm not going to be basically out in the middle of big timber without any back cover. Um, and that back cover gives you the ability to move a little bit, but you're not going to be standing up there waving Right, but, um, just to break up your outline a little bit, um, yeah, the back cover is a is a big thing. It's crucial here.
Speaker 2:So, so, getting back, just one quick remark um, with the traditional stuff, the traditional gear, I'm not getting as high as a. As a compound, hunter usually is they're people, I think they they don't need to, they they take it as like a sense of pride. Oh, I can get 25 or 30 feet up. Do you really need to do that? Do you understand your shot angle at that point? With an, with a, with an arrow much less a traditional arrow arrow or a compound versus traditional your shot angles can be way off it's wicked.
Speaker 1:Shooting an angle that steep is very difficult. I mean, the closer that deer, the worse to me. I'm like dang it. I'd rather you be further away so I could take a shot. I I like that as well, like I typically whenever, especially hunting around here, I'm usually 10 to 12 feet for anything higher than 15. You don't really need it well, especially here too, it's so green and thick all the time, I mean you end up you know canopy in the camp, like above the canopy, unless you're hunting those wide open, like you know, pine.
Speaker 2:So if you're gun hunting, like I've, also will carry a gun if I feel the need. If it's a windy day, um, cause, if it's a really windy day and I'm hunting a deer well, not a, but the deer and I want to kill that deer, I'm not, I'm not going to get close to that deer's core area, so close that the wind can shift and bust me right, because I could just run the entire hunt, if not the whole year. Um, so the gun hunters, that's fine, get. You want to get higher than 15 feet? It's cool archery hunting.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to do it, there's no need really.
Speaker 2:Um, get get yourself into some cover, some back cover. Um, pay attention to the sun, which way the sun coming up, which way it's going down, and then, uh, be as still as you can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, that's the hard part. So do you? Do you have any issues hunting out of a saddle? As far as like comfort or so? I don't like, that's why why I'm at, cause I hear some guys that's, that's the biggest. You know we we've talked about this before. That's like one of the biggest you know complaints that people get without actually understanding it or have ever done it. Like I can't imagine standing all day. Well, I mean, I think it's way more comfortable than sitting. Personally, I mean and it's not like you're standing, it's almost to me. I'm leaning, Correct. Do you keep your knees against a tree?
Speaker 2:So that's one thing I don't do, and a lot of the small circle of friends that I have as far as hunting, they all think I'm a psycho. Because I hardly, because I don't wear knee pads. I don't either. I don't lean against the tree. I hardly ever do that. If I do, it's maybe for 15, 20 seconds. I like to stay ready. Um, because everybody's done it. A deer will get up on top of you and you're not ready and there's nothing you really do about that's the end.
Speaker 2:At that point you have to use your skills to determine when you need to move right. And if you haven't learned animal behavior animal behavior and you haven't been around deer or around your game animal of choice at a close proximity for a long time, you're not going to know when and where to move right.
Speaker 1:That's that's the great thing about bow hunting, man, I mean, that's the challenge is because you're there, you're on top of it, and that's what makes it so difficult, because that's when all your woodsmanship skills and everything really come into play and you have to, you know, kind of prioritize everything, because whenever you're in the woods and I look at it too, because you'll notice movement like the, even the slightest little, it's very easy to pick up on whenever you're you're in the woods. So now, as a human, that's clumsy or something like that, any kind of movement you have that deer, I mean that animal is going to pick up on whenever you're you're in the woods. So now, as a human, that's clumsy or something like that, any kind of movement, you have that deer, I mean that animal is going to pick up on it right away and you're that's, that's the end of the hunt.
Speaker 2:So I like to compare it to this. You've been on some out of state trips where you're out there for three or four or five days, right? So when you get there on that first day, how do you feel like? When you're up in the tree, do you feel like you're like in tune? You're like you're ready to go. Like the smallest flicker of movement, you're on top of it me yeah, how do you feel on the first day, the first of the last?
Speaker 1:day, the first day, oh man, I'm like I'm on high alert, um, and obviously, oh, probably a little overexcited, um, yeah, it's when I, when I first get there, it's like, oh man, I feel, um, and it depends on where I'm at Right. So whenever I go to Kentucky and I get there, it's I get there, I'm overly excited, I'm ready to, you know, and I blow it right away, typically, uh, that's what I did this year. You know, I was a little overzealous, got in there right away, um, pushed a little harder than I probably should have and got busted right away, um, and, as you know, time went on. I felt like I became more in tune, if that makes sense, with why do you think that is?
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Too many energy drinks. That's possible.
Speaker 2:Um, so I asked you that to to, to go this route. I guess for a second. If human beings are supposed to do this, like you said, that first day you're out there you're a little overzealous, you're not as sharp, that's because we live in the world that we live in. We have a phone, we have other people, we have business, we have work. Five, six, seven days in that predator nature that human beings are supposed to have is starting to kind of take back over a little bit. At least that's what I've found Because I've done this. Past year I was on a 16-day whitetail trip, which that's a lot of hunting, and I've always found that five or six days in your body's in tune, your eyes are catching everything, you're smelling everything differently, like you can walk through an area and be like that's a buck or that's a doe.
Speaker 1:No, no, I think it's an amazing thing.
Speaker 2:But once you hit that level, whenever your body's in tune with being in the wild, being in nature. It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1:To me anyway.
Speaker 2:It makes me pretty happy and excited to talk about it.
Speaker 1:Agreed and that was so. You bring up a good point, making me think, man, actually kind of recap my trip. It took almost my entire trip for me to really to really get there to that point. Um, but because at first I'm still looking at my phone, you know, still got a lot of other things on my mind and it seems, as the days kind of progress, that you know it was easier to get out in the woods and be there, be in that moment, versus whenever I first got there and it did, it took like day four or five, you know, being there, for that to really kind of happen I mean you're moving quieter through the woods, paying a little bit more attention your surroundings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, it's kind of it's. It's kind of amazing how humans have kind of reverted back to their original instinct Right.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I might have let us off on a tangent when you said that I kind of rung a bell upstairs.
Speaker 1:I like talking about that, yeah, I do too, man. I mean, and you don't think like, at least for me, I didn't. I've never. I'm not really even consider that, because typically my hunts around here are you know, you go out for a little bit, you get to hunt a couple days maybe, and you go back you still got business going on. You go before you go hunt. You got something you're working on. After you hunt you got something to get back to family. But whenever you go out on like that out-of-state trip, it's completely different. It's game on, it is man, it's awesome, it's. I think that's why you look forward to it so much. It's a complete disconnect from normal life and you get the ability to go back out and do that primal thing that feels natural once you get back to that state.
Speaker 2:Being comfortable with, being uncomfortable that's what I like to call it sometimes. Because you're out there, you're cold, it's wet a lot of the times. That's what I like to call it sometimes. Yeah, because you're out there, you're cold, it's wet a lot of the times, and that's one thing that I hate is being cold and wet. But if I'm in a tree and I have a mission or I have a purpose for being there, I don't really care, right? And some people are like how do you do that? Because I'll sit there all day, um, and my, my hunting partners are the same way. They'll sit there all day and be completely miserable and then, but you're completely happy on the inside at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's um it's definitely unique to you know, for someone that's never done it or been in the woods like that Cause I do know a lot of people like that who live in the city. They've never experienced what it is to be, you know, in the woods by yourself, you know for days on end, uh, hunting something. I mean it's, it's a pretty um. To me it's, it's a thrilling experience. I mean there's not much more that I enjoy than that.
Speaker 2:I'm right there with you. I do enjoy steak, this is true. Big ribeye is one of my favorite things. However, I take more pride in eating what I kill. Sorry, I don't want to say a lot of people kind of look at me weird.
Speaker 2:When I say kill, I don't say harvest a lot. I'm not out there picking tomatoes, I'm out there killing something. I'm not trying to take the glory away from the animal, but I think, from from my standpoint, saying harvest because you're taking a soul, you're not harvesting a soul, you're taking a soul and feel something right. You're using that, that meat, to, to bring sustenance to your body and your family's body to your table. Um, I think calling it harvest, um, it's just kind of taking a little away from that. That's my personal view. Some people might not agree with it. That is just kind of taking a little away from that. That's my personal view.
Speaker 2:Some people might not agree with it, that's just how I am, but I take pride in that, and a lot of the red meat that I eat year-round is deer elk. I love me some turkey fingers. So, yes, a lot of people from the city don't understand exactly what we're doing out there and I'm not disparaging anybody from the city, because I've grown up everywhere, I've lived in a city. I've had to because, you know, it's just the situation I was in with my career at the time. But they don't understand what we're doing out there. We're not. They're going to the. They're killing their food with a credit card. We're going out there and actually taking I don't want to say the dirty work, but doing the work ourselves, and we find pride in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, and I can see where some guys say harvest, um, as you know, um, maybe you know it's because it it, it, it is such a sensitive thing, right, I mean, and and I think most people try to do the best they, especially hunters, do the best they can to, you know, make it so it's not such this like taboo, like grotesque thing, so that you know, maybe they use the word harvest. I've always been a fan of saying kill myself, because you know you're out there, you're killing something. It is what it is and I.
Speaker 2:I guess if I was well, let's put it this way if I was sitting in front of a group of children and I was teaching a hunter's education class, I would use the word harvest because of the target audience there, right? If I was sitting in front of?
Speaker 1:well, that's that target audience is a lot of your non hunters. I think you might have to talk to them the same way well, the non hunters.
Speaker 2:I can explain that to a little bit easier right so, yeah, you might have to talk to them the same way. Well, the non-hunters. I can explain that to a little bit easier, Right? So yeah, I guess we could the target audience thing, but as an adult non-hunter, I think I would be able to explain that well enough that they would be able to understand it. Unless they're just one of those type that don't want to hear it.
Speaker 1:Well, there's a lot of that, you know, unfortunately, and I think if people actually got out and experienced it and realized that it was more than just that kill, it's the actual hunt itself, it's the preparation, it's the, the strategy, you know all the things that go into it it would really probably change their perspective on it, on hunting as a whole. Right, because I mean, you look at it, a lot of people you know, you know anti hunters, whatever, whatever they are, you know, and I get where they're coming from. Right, you know it. It cause it is you're, you're, you're killing something, you know. I mean, I've always been a big believer in you don't just kill things to kill things. So I teach, I teach my kids that, um, I'm not, uh, a believer in just going out and killing something for the fun of it or the sports. You know, I think there should be a purpose behind it.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think, with the anti-hunting community or the you know, all the non hunters out there, I think that if they actually experienced it from somebody that's a true hunter and they, they, they went out there and they saw everything that went into it they would have a different not all of them, but I think a lot of them would have a different outlook on it, because, because, let's look at it, think about it Do you go and buy your food from the store? Have you ever? I know you've seen, you know the factory farms, right, how disgusting these animals are. You know, on top of each other, the way they're treated, the lack of, you know, nutrients that they get their food. I mean, it's just it's. I I'm also not a big believer in um animals in captivity, like, right. I don't like, I don't like it right, I don't know, that's not it's not.
Speaker 1:It's not natural, it's not the life that that animal is supposed to have. They should be out there in nature stretching their bodies out, you know, being able to run doing what they were put here to do. Exactly Um. So yeah, I don't know, man, I think it's a very, it's a very difficult thing to um to tell somebody about. I think it's really something that you'd have to, they'd have to experience to really understand it, and that's where the issue is.
Speaker 2:So I've I've had these conversations with people and I think I was able to articulate it good enough for them to understand at least the the the few that I've talked to.
Speaker 2:So I am a hunter. I enjoy hunting as much as people don't believe it sometimes. I don't enjoy the killing part. I love the pursuit, I love the shot, I love the feeling of making a good shot. But then you know, you get the initial jitters right after the shot, adrenaline dump, all that good stuff. But as you're walking up to that animal and I love the blood trail, I love trailing and tracking as you walk up and you see that animal, I don't know if you've noticed it, but at least with me there's always that sense of like, not regret, but Guilt. I guess you can call it guilt a little bit. Like, I don't know, it's just. I like to equate it to like you just took another life. Um, I'm not trying to over dramatize things right.
Speaker 2:But that's how I feel, and then it kind of goes away once you get to the, to the work portion of it, because you know that that meat, that animal is going to get used, um, but moving on past the hunter thing like I am saying that, um, I love animals, I love watching animals and, truthfully, when I'm hunting, when I'm in the woods, especially with a traditional bow, I'm watching animals more than I'm shooting, right but, um.
Speaker 2:To kind of like to drive this point home and to maybe touch on the traditional thing just a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Um, even after we've moved on, hunting with that traditional bow has made me a better hunter because I get to watch animals. I'm sitting there, I'm I'm watching how these, these animals, these deer, pigs, whatever it may how they're interacting with each other, how they're interacting with their environment, how they act. If I was to mess up on my entry and they hit my ground, set where my boots have touched the ground and I get to see how that doe or how that buck because they react differently depending on their age and depending on their maturity I get to see how they react to that. That's just tools of the toolbox up here. So I'm getting to see all those things, but I legitimately enjoy watching animals interact with their environment. So a couple of that when talking to an anti-hunter, if you want to call it that, couple that. When talking to an anti-hunter, if you want to call it that, couple that with.
Speaker 2:I'm out there to hunt either the deer or a mature deer, whether it be a mature buck or a mature doe, for numerous reasons. One reason they're larger. There's more meat on them. I get no enjoyment out of shooting a small button buck or a small yearling doe. There's not a lot of meat on it and they're also. They're not to the maturity level of, they haven't gained all the skills to be able to survive. So it is super easy for anybody to go out there and shoot a small yearling deer. What is not easy to do is go out and shoot a four or five-year-old buck or a three or four-year-old doe, because they're tried and true, they're gangsters, they've been out there living and they've been living hard. And to kill one of those, to put an arrow through one of those at 15, 10, 8, 6 yards, it's tough. So I'm after mature animals, but where I kind of segue with talking to those people after that is I'm hunting mature animals for another reason.
Speaker 2:Nature is brutal. The worst thing for a mature animal to go through is to starve to death. And as deer get older, as animals get older, they start to lose their teeth, they start to their health will dwindle. I want to say around 10, 11 years old, something like that. A mature buck has mostly lost his teeth, especially around here, because the soil is gritty, it's sandy, they don't have a lot of acorns, so they're chewing on random things. So if you look at an 8 or a 10-year-old buck around here, their teeth are flat, nearly gone. Any time after that he's going to start losing body mass. He's going to start slowing down. What's going to happen when he slows down? He's either going to starve to death or he's going to get wrapped up by coyotes or another predator and to die. Being eaten alive to me sounds like the most horrendous thing. So I would rather take a mature animal, because nature is going to run its course whether you do it or not.
Speaker 1:Right, it's like probably the best way to. I mean, right, you think about death, death no matter what, is scary, right, but as a hunter, I think your, your sole purpose when taking that is to make a good, clean, efficient saw. That's why we preach so much here like you need to spend time behind your equipment before the season comes, right, you should be efficient, you should be lethal with your. Whatever you decide to take in the woods, you should be very well prepared before you head out there and take a shot on an animal, which I still think is part of the myth, is a missing piece for some people, some hunters right, they want to get out there. They just they got a brand new something they're going out to next week to go hunt with it.
Speaker 1:To me, which is not necessarily the best choice, and you know, you know it's kind of gives hunters a bad look too, because the potential for something to go wrong a bad shot, um is is so much greater.
Speaker 1:So I think when it it's such a sensitive topic, hunting right For so many people I mean, even you know people that have been around in their whole life that don't hunt it's still one of those things that not everybody gets it.
Speaker 1:Um, and I don't, you know, one of our, you know, and one of the reasons I want to sit down and sit down and talk to you is you're very good at articulating things. I'm not, you know, um, it's just, it's one of those things that I, I don't know, and there's some organizations out there, right that do a really good job advocating for hunters and putting, you know, bringing it to light in a positive way. But I think that's what we need more of and that's what's one of the missing pieces, because, if you look at it, hunters rights, I mean, it seems like every year they're slowly, you know, kind of slipping away and the potential for them to to slip away is, you know, it's very high and I think and it's even harder nowadays, especially to to even to get into hunting, you know, because you can't like, for example, like private land. It's impossible to find private land to hunt around here.
Speaker 1:It really is impossible around here, especially around here, and you know, and then you get on the public land and you know, there there's I don't want to mention dog hunting on here.
Speaker 2:It's probably not a route we're going to go down. We've already we've already spoke on it a little bit. Everybody that knows me knows my thoughts. I'll just leave it at that. Yeah, Um. However, yes, Um, there are some things that are being kind of chipped away slowly. Um, mostly I don't want to say mostly, but a lot of it is happening out West. Um, we talked briefly on things happening out there. Um, the most recent things were the release of wolves in Colorado.
Speaker 1:Which is recent right.
Speaker 2:Recent. So the petition started around 2020, and I have a funny story with that. We can get into it shortly if you'd like to. And then the most recent thing is amongst the social media chatter is the petition to stop lion hunting Totally Lion and bobcats predators in Colorado. So that's what's on the forefront right now. I'm not a native Coloradan, I don't claim to be. However, I like to advocate for the rights of an outdoorsman and I understand, I like to think that I understand, and I look at the management of wildlife from a scientific factor instead of an emotional, personal.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about that. So what you're referring to is in and actually talking to you about this. This morning you made a post about it and this is where I find out majority of this stuff is. I can go to your social stuff and I can get a lot of information. Um, but it's like you said, it's out in colorado, it's ballot initiative 91, which the aim is to mountain lion hunting. You said, right?
Speaker 1:So one of the things that is interesting whenever you look at it is the way that it's portrayed to the public. Right, this is where the political side of things come in and they really they spin it, right. So when I was reading up on it, so they're calling it trophy hunting to gain support from the public and potential voters, right, that's the twist that they're putting on it when that's not the case at all. Right, it's managing the predator population out West, right, just like we manage the elk and the deer population. But what this would do would eliminate the ability to to hunt the predators out there. So what does that mean? That means whenever you can't manage the predators, but you're managing the elk and the deer, the predator population continues to grow. And one of the things we were talking about as well is Colorado, doesn't exactly have a small mountain lion population right there. They're, from what I read, they are the largest population of big cats in the U S.
Speaker 2:I've also read that as well. So last I checked they don't go to Walmart to buy deer tags or elk tags, right? Just a quick tidbit of information. A normal male mountain lion will kill 40 mule deer a year, when a typical hunter in Colorado is going to kill one mule deer a year. A typical male mature wolf will kill 30 deer a year. Mature wolf will kill 30 deer a year while an entire pack of I don't know you want to call it five, seven, ten wolves mature wolves will kill herds of elk. We can get to that if you'd like to. But getting to the mountain lion, stuff the mountain lion hunting. You mentioned trophy hunting, so I don't know if you've ever hunted mountain lions. I have not. Hunting a predator is difficult, especially a mountain lion. I grew up predator hunting coyotes. Mostly they will respond to a predator. Call Mountain lions. Are smart, they're keen. You will hardly ever actually watch them or see them in the wild. They know you're there. That's just part of it.
Speaker 2:They're really spooky when you're hunting in areas that you know there are big cats, because they can stalk. They can stalk way better than we can. But getting to the trophy hunting, yes, it's being spun that way. But what the public doesn't realize and most of the public that I'm speaking of, we're talking about the public, the republic of Boulder, denver, people that, yeah, they go outside, they go to, they go to REI, get their Patagonia gear and they go hike a trail. You know a niner or a 14er that's got a beaten path up and down and then they're. They're all of a sudden outdoorsmen. But what those people don't realize is they want to call it trophy hunting, but it's not.
Speaker 2:So to hunt successfully a mountain lion in Colorado is mostly houndsmen doing it.
Speaker 2:They have a pack of hounds. They'll ride a mountain road, they'll cut a track, they'll release the hounds. The hounds will then chase the cat down, not brutally, because the cat's going to tree. It's going to go up a tree. And I have been lion hunting one time and it was just a kick right in the man, jules, if you know what I mean. It was physical. We were running up and down hills all day. The dogs had the cat treed for five hours. It took us five hours to get to the cat. And what happened when it got to the cat? Did we kill it? No, why? Because it wasn't a mature animal, it was a female.
Speaker 2:What these people in Boulder, or these people that don't understand cat hunting, especially with hounds, is, that's the only successful way to lion hunt and take a mature animal. That's the only way to get a cat in the tree so you can look at it, assess it. Is it mature? Is it a female? Is it a female that possibly has cubs somewhere? Because you can see, you know the plumbing. So that's how you assess the animal that you want to take. And I want to say I've talked to houndsmen out in Colorado. I know a few of them. I want to say during the season that they're allotted about 95 to 96% of the time they're not shooting the cat that they treat. They enjoy watching their hounds work. They enjoy being able to see a cat an apex predator because that's what the mountain lion is in Colorado See a cat from 10 yards, look at it, watch it, learn from it.
Speaker 2:If it's a mature tom, a big tom, they're probably going to take it. Why? Because it's mature. At some point in that tom's life he's going to dry up. It means he can't reproduce, but he's still going to be the dominant male in his area, so he's going to mate with females. What does that mean? If he's mating with the females and he's dry, he's not going to produce offspring. So the younger cats that are able to reproduce are not allowed to mate with the females. So there's no offspring. So that is correct management. What is not correct management is outlawing all of that, allowing male cats to continue doing what they're doing, and not keeping that population in check.
Speaker 1:So what is? Do mountain lions even have any predators out there? Us, us?
Speaker 2:right. And so another thing they like to say is well, that's trophy hunting, they're wasting the meat. Have you ever had mountain lion?
Speaker 1:I have not, so I've heard of people eating mountain lion. I've heard. It's really good, it's amazing.
Speaker 2:So is bobcat.
Speaker 1:That, so that that's new to me too. Um, I heard that they are both actually really, really good.
Speaker 2:It's so. I've got friends, like I said, that live out West and they prefer mountain lion over mule deer. Really, Um it is. It is tasty. I've had some mountain lion backstrap. It was saved for me. Excellent table fare. So that is untrue as well. Are they being wasted? No, they're not being wasted. Their fur is being taken, their meat is being taken off the mountain. The meat is going to be eaten, the fur is going to. In most cases they're going to either do a mount full, full size body mount so they can remember the animal correctly or they're going to, or they're going to turn into a, basically a piece that you can look at, you can talk, to, talk about forever and remember that animal in that way.
Speaker 1:Well, also, the thing that it does is it provides income for the local community as well. Right, so you got your taxidermy. You know they make money. Meat processors, meat processors You're selling tags Houndsmen.
Speaker 2:Houndsmen. There are hounds out there. There are hound outfits out there. They you know their income. Their yearly income is that they're paying. They have clientele that are paying them to take them out so they can hunt a lion.
Speaker 1:Um, so it's more. It's bigger than just what people see at a surface level. It really trickles down and that's what people don't realize is when you eliminate one thing and when this starts to happen in their chip, but when you start losing hunting rights, it's more and more and more, and it's a. It's more than just you know, oh, you can't have that animal. It's local jobs, it's, you know, people coming in from out of state, it's hotels. I mean there's so many things that people don't consider and that's that's the big issue. And then that's that's the part of the problem.
Speaker 1:And you know, and like you said, it's the issue is people are doing this out of emotion. Like you said, right, you see a Disney. We have done a very good job of making animals into these cuddly. You know, and don't get me wrong, whenever you see an animal, it's incredible to see them in their natural habitat. Right, you see them doing what they do, observing them from afar, and they have no idea. You're there and you can able to watch them do what they do. It's incredible, but it is different than what is portrayed in hollywood, in these disney movies and stuff, correct? You know, there's so much more to it than just that surface level.
Speaker 2:Humanizing is part of what the issue is the cat ladies. Nothing against cat ladies, that's my wife I've noticed that cat ladies are usually the ones that we'll have to have conversations with, if you will. What they don't realize is take a grizzly bear, for example. A big, dominant, mature male grizzly bear Looks cool, right, he doesn't look. He's not cuddly like the ones in the Disney movies.
Speaker 2:What happens in the wild people don't realize is you have your mature grizzly bear male grizzly bear and you have your female grizzly, bear with cubs in order for that female grizzly to go back into heat or in estrus, if you will, would be to take her cubs out of the picture. So what does the male grizzly bear do? The big, mature male grizzly bear will kill a female grizzly bear's cubs in order for her to go back into estrus, so he can mate again, that's not in a disney movie, that's what happens.
Speaker 1:That's not the only species that does that either. Black bears do it too. There's a lot of them that that do that, and that's one of the things that, uh, yeah, like you said, it's not portrayed. No, you know, and and nature is raw and real and unforgiving. It is. It is. I mean, there's a lot of people that don't realize that it does not care about your feelings and nor do those animals.
Speaker 2:No, they don't. Let's see, I had a point. Welcome to my life.
Speaker 1:I got something good. You said I was articulate. I just forgot what I were going to say. That's me. That's like I need to jot this down. I forget about it and it's gone.
Speaker 2:Oh God, what was I going to say? Oh, the humanizing. So moving past. Not moving past the humanizing, but kind of coupling the humanizing aspect with the taking away from income. Not only is it going to take away income from the hunters or the people that benefit from hunting itself. But look at areas like Denver and Vail in Colorado seasonal towns, if you will, a lot of it is skiing, people will go there to ski. Colorado seasonal towns, if you will, a lot of it is skiing like people will go there to ski.
Speaker 2:What's going to happen in 10, 12 years after the release of wolves? Because if they go unchecked there is no management. There is no plan for it right now, but if it continues on for 10 or 12 years, what's going to happen to the local herds of elk that stay in the Estes Park area or the Vail area? Their winter range has been taken away because their normal winter range used to be Denver but now there's a metropolis there so they're not going to winter in Denver. What's going to happen when Trevor and Rhonda are watching a herd of 200 head of elk being slaughtered on their favorite ski slope because they don't have anywhere else to go because their winter range is gone.
Speaker 2:The ski slopes are there, the tourists are there, so there's some type of aspect. Animals will learn. There's a little bit of safety there around people. There's also food. There's easy access to trails and things of that nature, but for the most part, predators will stay away from people. When the predators start learning that people are not a threat, what's going to happen? You're going to, you're going to, you're going to witness and this is me speculating.
Speaker 2:you're going to witness a slaughter of herds of elk on ski slips and at that point they were going to be like man. That wasn't a good idea and it's going to be too late.
Speaker 1:Or I mean so I don't know about this as well, but what about whenever you know that's where you're right, so they're going? Whenever you know that's where you're right, so they're going, they slaughter this elk herd or whatnot, or they get used to feeding around people and they're no longer afraid of people, you know. And then they're in. You know food becomes scarce, so you know, house cats, your dogs, that's out back, I mean, what happens when? Do they start wandering into the city area? You know, and it's an even bigger problem. And how do you, how do you combat that? Like?
Speaker 2:then you call in and what's? And it's it's. It's happened in washington state and oregon. It's happened because they outlawed um, they outlawed not lion hunting, but the hunting of lions with hounds. So basically, if a deer hunter is in the woods and he happens upon a lion, he can shoot it and it's legal. If he has attack, he or she can shoot it. Sorry, um, but what happens is you know they, they can't. Just, it's not going to happen, like I, like I mentioned before, unless it's just pure luck that a mountain lion walks across you. Um, but what they've done? Because the mountain lion population has exploded, has increased they've called in government hunters. So, instead of paying, instead of hunters out-of-state residents, whatever it may be paying, going to a store, paying for a lion tag, that state getting those funds, and out of state license licenses and tags are expensive Instead of the state getting that money, the state is paying for government hunters to come in and kill animals and, most cases, not use those animals and taken away from the hunters. Why? Because of people's feelings.
Speaker 1:Right. So what we've done is we've circled all the way back around. Now people are, now we're killing animals because they're over, they've not been controlled, they're not getting used now, and it's everything that the anti-hunter didn't want in the first place, which could have been eliminated by successfully managing bringing income to the local populace, supporting local businesses.
Speaker 2:This is going full circle. I see this personally. I see this happening in Colorado because it happened in Washington and Oregon. It's happened in Idaho, I can't remember exactly what year off the top of my head they released wolves in. Idaho and a couple of the largest wilderness areas. The Lolo region and the Frank Church used to be the Mecca of elk hunting. Frank Church is a wilderness area you can only access unless you're crazy enough to do it. Only access by plane.
Speaker 2:Mecca of elk hunting. I never personally got to do it, I'm just going off the experiences of others. You go into Frank Church now Crickets, not a bugle, not a elk. And that's the long term effects Of the release of predators Without a management plan. Because at first Idaho had no management plan. They were like, no, they're off limits. Farmers, shoot them, there's a fine. Now they have no management plan. They were like, no, they're off limits. Farmers, shoot them, there's a fine. Now they have a management plan.
Speaker 2:Well, not shoot on sight, but you get tags and you go and you hunt wolves because they realized really quickly that well, we're losing revenue from elk tags from in-state and out-of-state. Which is a lot of money, a lot of money, a whole lot of money.
Speaker 2:I mean, we're talking about 700 a pop for an, for a non-resident to go hunt, and I don't remember what the tag, the tag amounts last year was. I try to keep up on that, but it was. It was way up there. Um, they're losing a lot of money and they realized that was a bad idea, not just from the revenue and the money aspect, but the the wildlife management aspect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean, it seems like we just like, when do we ever learn? Ah, you know, I think you've mentioned it before.
Speaker 2:Uh, there, there are some groups out there that that attempt and um, that are flat and pushing back on this.
Speaker 1:What are some of the groups or whatnot, or organizations that you personally, you know, follow or keep up with that? Are doing a good job for this.
Speaker 2:I like to keep up with SCI, nwtf, rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, those groups that I found they mostly do things right. They're out there advocating for hunters, advocating for access. They're not just pushing for funds. They're not having rendezvous, tap night, whatever beer nights they want to call it yeah, um, that's nonsense, um, but yeah, they're actually. They're actually out there doing the good work, right?
Speaker 1:those are the ones that I follow personally yeah, I, I mean in when you look at it. I mean, I mean, because this is something that if you're a hunter, you should probably look into. I mean, and I'm uh, I don't have a lot of experience and you, you always that's why I was going to you. You always you do a good job of bringing things to light, and then I'll look into it and, you know, dive into a little bit more and be like, oh wow, this is a real issue that has potential to, you know, roll over to us at some point. You know, I mean it, just because it's not in your state necessarily doesn't mean it's not going to negatively impact you further down the road.
Speaker 1:Um, and, it's it seems like it's an uphill battle and it's going to be an uphill battle, but I think it takes kind of more of an awareness, because I don't you don't see a lot of awareness for it. I mean, you really have to dive into those accounts or those groups to really get updated about it, Because you know, I don't see it in the news much, you know.
Speaker 2:No, it's not really a popular issue in the news right now. We have an election going on. Of course, yeah, no, it's something that I personally like to keep up with, because it does. It's going to affect me Not to be selfish it is going to affect. But yes, I have children. I have a, my daughter's not so much the, you know, the biggest hunter. She, she's, I don't know. She likes to look at the animals whenever I bring them home, things of that nature.
Speaker 2:She'll listen to me when I talk about it. She's 15. She might not be listening, but she's letting me talk, it's an important thing. But my 8-year-old son, he is all about it. He is absolute heck on a turkey. I feel sorry for him here in a couple of months but, yes, it's going to affect his access, his ability to go out West and do the things that he wants to do and that you know. That's kind of an issue for me, right?
Speaker 1:And that's why it's important to get involved, yes, with the correct group With the correct group, and that's where it's important is vetting the groups that you do get involved with, because there are a lot of them that are kind of I don't know the best way to describe them. They're not exactly what they portray. Maybe Is that the best way to say it.
Speaker 2:I think you're hitting a nail on the head with that, and I'm not going to name any of those groups. I will leave a small example, if you will.
Speaker 1:I think we both know who we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think they're not exploiting people, but they're exploiting people's nature to want to belong to something. And for the majority of folks out there, a lot of people are like man that looks cool. They say some really good big words and they say this thing, but they don't do the research before they go, give them their money, and that's unfortunate, right.
Speaker 2:Do your research, people. But moving on, one of the groups that will not be named that issue we just talked about. As far as the lion hunting, that will not be named, that issue we just talked about. As far as the lion hunting, you know, this group touts itself. As you know, we're here for the outdoorsman, the back of the. You know we're here for the outdoorsman's access and access to public lands and rights and public waters and this and that Hunters' rights all-encompassing.
Speaker 2:But you go to their Instagram pages, pages, and there is not one post, rickets, bringing awareness of the current petition in colorado. Even that organization's colorado chapter has only had one post mentioning that issue we just spoke about. I know, because I've done my own research, why that is Because it's a predator and I'll leave it at that. But if that group was so much for hunters' rights, you would think they would be using their wasta and their power because they do have some of each to maybe instill some change and say, hey, wait, wait, wait. Let's not make this decision based on emotions. Let's let the people who have the degrees that can make a scientific-based decision based on management, make these decisions instead of your feelings. But I haven't seen. I mean, like you said, there's been crickets so far. I mean this is being voted on in November, so they have from now until November. But if it was me running those pages, I think I would be probably bringing that to the awareness of my subscribers yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean that's kind of the whole. In my opinion, the point of those groups and affiliations is to spread the awareness.
Speaker 1:Right, everybody wants to spread awareness about this, about that, but you have an organization that stood up solely for that and they're, you know they're kind of not doing their their part to, you know, to let everybody know Um, and yeah, and, like I said, I have kids too. You know my boys are all about me in the woods and honey um, especially my oldest right now. That's what he lives for, um, and you know to think about it and you know what it's like now. What is it going to be like, you know, in 10 years? You know, whenever he's a young adult and you know he wants to go out and do things, is he going to have that capability or that you know, the ability to go out there and do that stuff? It's, you know, it's kind of, you know, up in the air at this point and if um hunters don't get together and speak on this and spread that awareness, it's only going to, I think, continue to get worse for everybody.
Speaker 2:Correct, correct. So we talked a lot about the negative stuff. Let's talk about something positive, real quick, just talking about the proper management, the North American model of wildlife management. If you will Big words, let's listen. I mean just to mention one instance where it's worked the wild turkey when I was growing up I'm 40 years old right now when I was growing up, if I won, turkeys were few and far between. You had to hunt hard to even see one here or in Georgia, georgia, georgia, okay.
Speaker 1:Here or in.
Speaker 2:Georgia, georgia, georgia. Okay, but even in the eastern states those years turkeys were not unheard of, but they were not as populated as they are now. Those groups got together, they created a management practice or a management plan and then, if you look at the turkey population now, some people will say, oh, it's dwindling, or this and that, um, you know, the numbers are fluctuating because the the massive amounts of new hunters coming in and turkeys are relatively easy to hunt.
Speaker 2:If you basically speak for yourself if you, if you do your research, um, and, and put in your time, not saying you're not, you don't do any of those, but you are a busy band.
Speaker 1:You run the business um it's my excuse for everything, though why didn't work? Yeah, dude, I'm a businessman, I don't know but relatively easy to hunt um.
Speaker 2:And so yeah, those numbers are dwindling a little bit not dwindling, but you know they fluctuate right during the covid years, because covid happened march 20th right before spring, march 2020 right before spring. The spring turkey season in 2020.
Speaker 1:Those poor turkeys oh my gosh man. I know even just the amount of of product that we sold.
Speaker 2:The influx was unbelievable for that year but compare the numbers currently to 30, 40 years ago. Even with whitetail deer, proper management works. The eastern states, the midwestern, you know, attest to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean, there is hope, it's just there's hope.
Speaker 2:You know I wanted, I wanted to little in that conversation on a positive note.
Speaker 1:Absolutely as we should, right, um, I think there are some, like you said, there's some girly great organizations out there that are doing everything in their power to to make an impact and it just takes, you know, like this, spreading that awareness, and you know, hopefully people listen and you know they'll get a look, they'll get interested and you know they'll. You know, try to get involved as best they can. But so let's move on from that. You know, debbie Downer, um, but let's talk into something a little bit more. That's actually right around the corner turkey hunting.
Speaker 2:You've been a pretty successful turkey hunter as your son has as well.
Speaker 1:Correct, yes, moving on.
Speaker 2:That's a point of contention.
Speaker 1:There you go. So you're a big turkey hunter. I mean you pretty much hunt everything, but been a very, very successful turkey hunter. Do you hunt heart back on the traditional side? Do you hunt turkey with a trad bow as well?
Speaker 2:so yes, I do, I do both, um, shotgun and traditional. Yes, um, I have killed, uh, I've killed, I don't know, five or six, seven, seven off the top of my head with a bow, with a traditional bow, now, yep, six, a traditional one with a compound. There we go, trying to access my memory here. So, yes, and it is a challenge trying to hit such a small target, because most of the time they're constantly moving, but yes, it can be done and I've been successful with it.
Speaker 1:Are you hunting out of a blind or are you just hunting off the ground with a ghillie suit on?
Speaker 2:I know some guys, some older gentlemen, that do the ghillie suit with a traditional bow back in georgia. Um, they are some like salt of the earth, straight killers, however, that's not me, I've tried it. I've tried it and and if you've ever been turkey hunting, you've heard that. I hear that a lot whenever I try to turkey hunt out of a ghillie suit with a traditional bow.
Speaker 2:So no, I'm mostly hunting out of a ghillie suit with a traditional bow. So no, I'm mostly hunting out of a blind whenever I'm hunting with the archery equipment.
Speaker 1:Okay, but you also do a lot of the run and gun stuff though I love it.
Speaker 2:So there's nothing like it to me. It makes me feel like I'm a child again. Wake up, Go, you know, use your alcohol, locate a, locate a gobbler, get up to him, a couple of tree yelps and then a fly down cackle. And this is all. Turkey speak, sorry if you don't understand that. Um, quick fly down cackle, and then that that you know you wait, and then that gobbler just lands in your lap because he's expecting you know, susie, to be sitting there. Right right, there's nothing like it to me. It's awesome. Actually, the one that I killed, um, I usually only kill one a year because I'm in north carolina. We can we get two tags? I'm trying to do my my part. Um, one less turkey for me, maybe you know one more turkey lives or one more turkey for a newer hunter, um, so I don't have a problem with turkey hunting. I usually go out and I'll get my turkey, but I have no need for two because usually my son is killing one as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he had a good season last year, didn't he?
Speaker 2:He did. Yeah, he was seven then. But my seven-year-old has killed a bigger bird than I ever have or probably ever will on his third season. I think he killed his first turkey when he was five and I'm hunting out of the blind with him. I'm trying to get him out of the blind this year to run a gun with me so he can learn how to actually do it not correctly but to do it a different way.
Speaker 1:So what kind of gun does he use? A 410?.
Speaker 2:He's got a little, a little Rossi 410 shooting.
Speaker 1:I need to make note of this, because Gavin wants to go this year and he's like dude, we got to do some turkey and I'm like, bro, we can, we can do it, but you need to do your research because I ain't good at it.
Speaker 2:Now the little Rossi 410, it makes quick medicine of them. I mean, I even like carrying that shotgun every once in a while because it's so light, yeah, but that's what he's using. I put it on a tripod for him. I have what's called a tri-clops mount, kind of like a hog saddle, a little different and then we'll sit there. I'll let him work the call every once in a while, because I want him to get used to, you know, to learn the language, because that's what it is, it's not just sitting there, yeah.
Speaker 2:Hammering that thing, speaking a language, speaking their language. The quicker you learn that language is, the quicker you're going to have a turkey sitting in your lap. But I'm letting him work the call a little bit, but as soon as we get one, worked up, daddy's taking time to go to work, right.
Speaker 1:So whenever getting kids involved in hunting to me is important, right? So I'm you know I try to do everything I can. That's the thing this year. I'm taking Gavin we. He plans to go to Kentucky with me to do some deer hunting, but he wants to do some turkey hunting this spring. So how are you getting you know? Are you pre-scouting everything and then you're setting a blind up because you know where they're roosting at night? You'll go set up a blind you know in the evening, like how are you getting on turkeys with your son?
Speaker 2:So if you've hunted turkeys long enough, you realize well you'll, you'll start to learn that they, they basically do the same thing every day. They come out of the tree in the morning and social hour usually begins social social hours, what I like they're. They're, they're flocking up, um, they're trying to gather up their hens, or the. The hens are trying to, you know, lure the males in, and usually that takes place in an open area so they can see each other, so they can both see each other, and they can see predators, because that's most of the time when they're most vocal in the morning like that.
Speaker 2:So they're being vocal to basically say hey, I'm here, come on over. So that's when a lot of people have the success and that's gonna take place in an open area. I don't, I mean, I have scouted for turkeys. I like to see some, you know, turkey sign up. There's tracks here which way they're going. They're going okay, but they're going that way maybe to feed. But in most cases in that morning time frames gonna take place somewhere in the open where there be a logging road or a food plot, the corner of of a field, a lot of places. They're going to fly to a high point in a field. If they're using a field so they can see a little bit better, they are a prey animal.
Speaker 2:They don't want to be in defilade because they're in defilade, they're below. I mean, if you've run and gunned enough, you know when a turkey gets in defilade you can go kill it. So they're going to try to avoid that the best they can. In a lot of cases, you know the animal instinct mate takes over and that he trips up a little bit and you get him. But so a lot of times that social hour is going to take place in the morning and then they're going to. They're going to move off, whether it be to feed or just kind of frolic through the woods.
Speaker 2:There is no rhyme or reason to turkeys. People think they're, they think they can pattern a turkey. They're going to do whatever they want. There is. I like to say there's no rhyme or reason. Can you? Can you pattern a group of turkeys?
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you have a group of turkeys on your property, they're probably going to do the same thing every day, right? Unless you go in there and booger them up, then they're going to move a little bit possibly. But I've found that if you find a roost tree where the flock or where the toms are going to roost, then you can in most cases get a really good crack at them in the morning. So what I like to do and it's kind of like a ritual with me and my boy we'll go out the day before youth season, the evening before youth season, and try to locate Tom A few calls, see if he can get them fired up, because most of the time early season like that they're still vocal and they're still going to crack back at you, gobble back at you. So he's right there and then, if you listen hard enough, you can actually hear the turkey. If you're, you know, a couple hundred yards away, you can hear the turkeys flying out.
Speaker 1:They're loud, yes, they are so cool.
Speaker 2:They're there and then you go home, make your game plan where you're going to go. So at that point I would go in way before first light and set up the blind, get ready, set up the blind, get ready, set the decoys out and then start off my sequence of calls closer to the first light Sequence of calls that I usually use are some light tree yelps. It's basically just a hen yelping, but very, very soft, and if you don't get a response, maybe add some more volume to it.
Speaker 1:But eventually he's going to fire off.
Speaker 2:I'm like there he is and then, depending on what mood he's in, he's either going to keep firing off to try to get you to talk back to him or he's going to shut up. If he keeps firing off, don't say anything. There's no reason to call back. He knows where you're. At Closer to daylight I like to do the fly down cackle because a lot of people are like.
Speaker 2:I don't like using that Well, it works for me. I'll. Basically, it's a sequence of clucks I'll take off my hat and I look like a complete fool doing it. Take off my hat and just flip it around. It sounds like wings flapping down from a tree. Okay, and it works. It works for me.
Speaker 1:What about as far as decoys go? How do you run decoys? Do you run like I'm going to run a, you know, a Jake and one hen or two hens? I mean, how do you set decoys up and does it differ throughout the season, like early season and the later part of the season? Does it differ throughout the season, like early season and the later part of the season?
Speaker 2:it does differ, uh, throughout the season. It's our early season, especially during youth. Um, it is super easy to get a mature gobbler worked up over a jake sitting over the top of the hen. Really, um, they don't like it sometimes if, see it, you don't even got to call, you don't have to do anything, just sit there and wait, just charge right in and start fighting him. Um, good, good buddy of mine, part of mine, he's got footage of his little girl's turkey that she shot last year and that's exactly what happened. Um, he set his decoys up just like that and gobbler came running in fighting that jake decoy and and his daughter got her first turkey footage um.
Speaker 2:later on during the season and if I'm hunting turkeys in the evening I'll most of the time I'll use a lone hen um, put it out? Um at a high point or out in an open area and just kind of wait it out. But middle of the season, lone hen, and then towards the end of the season I'll bring the jake back into the picture because at that point the gobblers are lonely. They're looking for ladies. I found that generally I either kill them the first of the season, when they're still vocal, or in the season when they're still vocal, or in the end when they're, when they're out looking real hard when most of the hens have been bred at that point so what about?
Speaker 1:do you ever use a strutting tom or strutting tom um decoy?
Speaker 2:I've never had any luck with it. I I've never used one. Is that like too aggressive? I mean you could? I've had some, uh, some friends that have used it. I've never used one. For that reason I don't, I don't want another mature gobbler sitting in my spread. Right, that makes sense. I mean, a Turkey is a Turkey. To me it's not a, it's not a whitetail deer.
Speaker 1:I love hunting turkeys I love hunting white-tails but a turkey's a turkey If I shoot one that's got small spurs.
Speaker 2:As long as it's a mature bird, I don't care.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I don't want the chance of a less mature bird being scared off by a mature-looking decoy. That makes sense.
Speaker 1:So what about? You know, like with deer hunting, weather and everything plays a big role in being successful. What about with turkey? Is there a specific weather pattern you look for? Or it's like man, this season's short, I'm getting out there, I'm gonna make it happen all of the above, so season is short.
Speaker 2:Yes, get out there as much as you can um a lot of people don't like turkey hunting the rain I see a lot of turkey out in the fields in the rain there you go.
Speaker 2:What does a turkey do in the spring? Around here especially, we have rain, we have wind. So what the wind does, if it's a really windy day, yeah, they're not going to hear a call as well, because the wind is constantly changing directions. But thank goodness, a turkey is not a whitetail, it's not going to smell you, right? But what the wind does to a flock changing directions but thank goodness, a turkey is not a whitetail, it's not going to smell you. But what the wind does to a flock is it breaks up the flock. They can't hear each other. If they can't hear your call, they can't hear each other either. So what a turkey is going to do is basically wander around until they find a flock.
Speaker 2:So you find your open area, your social area, and put your decoy out there. In most cases, you sit there and be quiet. It's and put your decoy out there. In most cases, you sit there and be quiet. It's gonna happen if there's a one in the area, um, with. If you add some rain in there too, um, most of the time with.
Speaker 2:So you mentioned seeing turkeys out in the field when it's raining a heavy rain, most of the time, like a good dousing. They're not going to be out in the field. Light sprinkle most of the time, but after a good heavy rain, as soon as that rain stops, as soon as that weather breaks, get your butt out there, sit on an open area, because they're going to want to dry out their feathers. They do have some natural water shedding ability, but their feathers are going to be damp. It's going to be hard for them to fly because they're big and clumsy. Anyway, whenever they try to fly, especially towards the evening time frame, they're going to want to dry out. So if you find yourself close to a field and the rain has just broke, sit there and be quiet get ready, wait on.
Speaker 1:So what do you plan on doing this year? Are you gonna, are you gonna, hunt them with the bow this year, or do you like? Hey, I'm gonna start off with the bow. It doesn't go well, I'm gonna move to the shotgun. Or is it just like that? This year, I'm going to hunt with a shotgun.
Speaker 2:So I do hunt on base. So during turkey season you're kind of at the whim of training areas and what's open and what's closed. So if I'm a father, my husband, I have a very active daughter active in school clubs and whatnot, and then I'm also I've got a very active daughter active in school clubs and whatnot, and then I've also got a very active son in athletics basketball I'm assistant coach for baseball this year. So my spring is going to be pretty busy. So if I get a chance to go in the woods and there's nothing open, I'm going to go to an archery area and set up my blind. I'm going to locate and set up my blind and then go for it. Um, if there's some open firearms areas open, I get in there and run a gun.
Speaker 1:So you really it's just. Do you prefer one over the other?
Speaker 2:I love shooting them with a bow, but I also love having one land in my lap. Yeah, there's nothing, there's not. And that, like I said, it happened last year. It was just a textbook thing. This, this turkey had been giving me the slip. Um and I went the evening before I was hunting. But I was just sitting there quietly and uh um saw, saw him. He was out across. Uh, he was across the logging. He crossed a logging road in front of me. I'm like I know where you're going. He's going to the edge of the swamp. There's a couple of really tall jackpines. That's exactly where he's going to fly up, get to dark. I walk down that logging road a little bit, hit a crow, not a crow, hit an owl, call and he fires off at me, that's where you're at.
Speaker 2:I'll see you in the morning, get up, do my routine of white tree yelps and then fly down cackle. And he flew down and landed 15 yards from me. So quick work of it. Yeah, quick work. I was at home eating a biscuit by 7 30 that's the way you wanted to go, right there so that's, if I can, I would like to, I would. I would like to say that I have a my favorite way of doing it, but I enjoy both of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because when you're in a blind turkey's eyesight.
Speaker 2:It is keen. They can see everything. If they're going to get you, they're going to get you with their eyes. If you're sitting in a blind and you're being quiet and you've set up your blind correctly, the sun's not shining into it. They don't see you. In there. You can watch turkey Turkeys do turkey things and you can learn a lot from doing that. Watch how they communicate with each other. Within five minutes of watching a flock of turkeys, you can visually see who the lead hen is and then you can use that to your advantage. Say, the next day you're out there and you got a. You got gobblers with that lead hen, with that flock, and they're locked up 60 yards out, can't get a shot.
Speaker 2:Well, you listen to what that lead hen is doing because you've already identified which lead hen it is most times the bigger one, but it can also be like who's got the worst attitude problem um make her mad because he might, because if a locked up gobbler is not coming to you, what do you do? Make the hen come to you. So everything she's doing, repeat it, cut her off. She'll eventually come to you and be like who is this over here? And then there's your gobbler there it is. There's the opportunitybbler there it is. There's the opportunity.
Speaker 1:So what about whenever you're setting up your blind? Do you brush your blind in or you just throw that thing out there and you're good?
Speaker 2:I just throw it out there. No issues. I have a lot of people do brush them in. I found that as long as you set your blind up where the sun is not going to be because it's coming up shining into your blind, shining on your face, you're not going to have an issue. Turkeys don't, and it's super weird, because if you go whitetail hunting, throw up a blind that's not been there before and a mature doe or any type of deer comes out, what are they doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're going at you, they're out, but a turkey?
Speaker 2:it doesn't seem like they really care. They don't see you move. My biggest issue is setting up the dang blind. Setting up blinds in the dark is funny.
Speaker 1:Dude, you want to see me look like a maniac trying to get that thing to open up or deploy and then breaking it down.
Speaker 2:And trying to do it quietly.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at one side's collapsed Trying to do it quietly.
Speaker 2:It's I yeah, I'm looking at one side's collapsed trying to get it. I have found. Uh, I got one last year. I didn't get to use it, but one of those see-through blinds like you. As you're sitting in it, you have your shooting windows, but as you look sorry, as you're looking in, as like if you're outside looking in, you can't see anything but when you're looking in, like. If you're outside looking in, you can't see anything, but when you're on the inside of it you can literally see everything 360.
Speaker 2:Really, I got one of those. I'm interested. I can't wait to try that one.
Speaker 1:Are you shooting? Are you using the screen and shooting through the screen, or do you have the screen down?
Speaker 2:I have the screen down. Okay yeah, a lot of guys shooting compounds, they'll leave the screen up and just shoot through the screen material with the bow, with a bow ah, that's always worried me because anything can deflect that arrow. If you're using a mechanical, you might as well just not even shoot right screen. It's going to deploy and your arrow is just going to go off and then if you shoot them with a compound bow to use a mechanical- I would rather that's what I.
Speaker 2:I'd be cutting diameter, because you're shooting a small target on a turkey Right so Like a two inch Mm-hmm. Yeah, big axe Swacker makes it pretty good. Yeah, 150 grain, three inch cutting diameter, three yeah just a monster of a blade.
Speaker 1:Oh, good deal. What else you got? Anything else? Any big trips planned this year? I know last year you said you were dude when I talked to you. You went to New York. You were gone for, like you said, like 16 days or something like that. What do you got this year?
Speaker 2:I don't have anything big planned. Uh, work has been pretty stacked for me. Um, the thing with you know my career right now. It stays pretty busy, um, and I can't really plan. I would love to go out West and do some things. However, putting in the time and planning those to just have something come up, um, last minute would pretty much break my heart, and I found that being in eastern carolina during september during the elk rut. Um, we usually have to deal with hurricanes.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, so I mean that we're due that run in eric, uh, that that ruined elk hunt for me in 2019. Whenever Florence hit Big plans to go to Idaho had everything shipped out there with a buddy, like we were ready to go Florence I'm like it's not going to happen now We've got to stay back here and put our house back together. Yeah, yeah, I understand that it happened last year too. So September last year we got another hurricane.
Speaker 1:But nothing big.
Speaker 2:Probably usually we'll make time to do the New York trip and we'll see how the draws go, if I get drawn for some some high preference point type hunts out West, then I will have to plan something hastily. But we'll see if that Well, good deal.
Speaker 1:Well, I know you're a pretty private individual. Do you have any social channels Anybody follow you on? Or you're pretty. You're a pretty private individual. Do you have any social channels anybody can follow you on? You're pretty private, from what I.
Speaker 2:I do. I have Facebook, I have Instagram. I can't remember Instagram. I don't know, it might be jlong13 or something like that. Account is set to private.
Speaker 1:Got to be approved, guys. We made the cut. So you may not, but you do put out a lot of good information though, especially for you know, um, advocating for hunters. So that was one of the reason I I asked because you are very in tune with that, and, uh, if I'm looking for anything, I can always find it on your page.
Speaker 2:So I try to keep the uh, the banter, the banter at a minimum, but sometimes I get a little um, a little carried away as we all do do.
Speaker 2:When I'm passionate about something, that's right. Very passionate Gotta be, especially about the things we talked about. Yeah, I try to keep that to a minimum, but for the most part everything else that I post is just family stuff. I do like to throw some hunting pictures on there, some stuff like that. So I don't lose it because I've found that phones break, especially when they fall into rivers. I don't lose it because I've found that phones break, especially when they fall into rivers. External hard drives break, computers fail, so social media is kind of a way for me to get some photos out there that I don't really want to lose, right.
Speaker 1:And just remember that, guys, once you put it out there, it's always there. We just talked about this. Can't take it away. Can't take it away. The internet is forever, yeah, so yeah, well, I appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me and it's always great to sit down and talk with you. I'm very informative. You always have a lot of, you have one, a ton of experience, so I love picking your brain and getting to sit down with you today and talk about something that's very important, I think, for for all hunters. I just appreciate you taking the time and sitting down and I need to get with you sooner than later so we can get my Satori set up and tuned correctly, so I can make something happen or not happen with that thing eventually we can definitely get that done.
Speaker 2:I'll, uh, I'll, help you with your soulless recurve, my soulless recurve one day.
Speaker 1:Whenever I get it, get it dialed in, I'll get a. I'll do the true traditional route right. It's gotta be a wood bow that's made out of like a special tree. It's a very, very um again. The traditional community is another one of those Like there's.
Speaker 2:There are some camps Um, I just make it, I just made a joke Uh, those Tories, um, that you carry in the store. You can turn those into a machine Because the ILF setup. You can do so many things with it. You can put a rest on it, you can align the limbs correctly, you can change your tiller.
Speaker 2:All of this I need your assistance with yeah and all these things like you can manage to get them close with a wooden bow, but all those adjustments, like you can turn that Satori or those eye lift rigs into a shooting machine.
Speaker 1:It's pretty like pretty quick work of it yeah, well, I'll need all the help I can get. Like I said, it's still very foreign to me, um, but it is, the more I play with it, man, the more I'm like, oh man, you know this, this might be the move so I found myself even now after doing it for a while. Um, I'll sit there, I'll shoot, and I love watching that arrow fly dude, it's just fun, man, because it's, I mean, you can just step out, it's.
Speaker 2:You got a tab, you got the bow, you got a couple arrows I guess, before we close, anybody that's interested in doing it and I don't know if you've done it yet um, you don't really have to have a target. There's a thing called stump shooting, but I don't know if you've done it.
Speaker 2:Yet you don't really have to have a target. There's a thing called stump shooting, but you don't have to. You don't really have to shoot stumps. You take a, you get a. You get a field tip or a blunt, a blunt tip from the store, here or online. Throw it on your arrows, throw some tennis balls out in your yard. I mean, you're not blowing through a target like you are with a compound. You have to worry about what lies beyond it. You're shooting into the ground, but you get good at shooting a tennis ball at 20 yards with a blunt tip, yeah it'll humble you real quick too.
Speaker 1:It'll humble you, but then once it starts coming together, you're like yeah, I'm still working on it, it is doable.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know if you looked at the. I didn't really take score in that last 3D shoot, but Reuben was wearing it out.
Speaker 1:Reuben's a good shooter man, he is. He's pretty talented with a bow. I mean, you put a compound bow in his hand, a traditional bow. He does a heck of a job with it, which makes me a little jealous.
Speaker 2:I'm like why are you so good at this. Some people have to work a little harder. I found that I'm one of those.
Speaker 1:I definitely am. It takes everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was out there like a champ.
Speaker 1:He was. He shot really really good. This last one. We do got another 3D event coming up on March 16th. I was glad you were able to make the other one. I know you're busy.
Speaker 2:I might be able to make the March 16th. We'll see what work's got in store I I'll have some other cool targets set up out there.
Speaker 1:We're doing something a little different this time too. So Jurassic park, yeah, Maybe one day I don't. I've got a lot of targets, but I don't. I don't got all that. I got one dinosaur target.
Speaker 2:No, no One's enough.
Speaker 1:One's yeah, yeah. Well, like I said, we're going to close this thing you put out and just taking the time to assist me with everything you have, and it's always good to see you and you know when you stop in the shop. So absolutely appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So appreciate you guys for watching. This was episode six. This is with Joe Long. We appreciate you guys watching and we will see you all in the next video.