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The Archery Project
James Yates Arrow Ballistic Study: What Does It Mean For Bowhunters?
What makes the perfect hunting arrow? For years, bowhunters have relied on marketing claims and personal preferences, but now groundbreaking research provides data-driven answers. The largest independent arrow ballistic study ever conducted has finally given us scientific evidence about what really happens after you release an arrow.
Zakk Plocica and Bryan Gay break down the revolutionary findings from James Yates' comprehensive study performed at Easton's facility in Salt Lake City. This isn't just another opinion piece it's a deep dive into hard data that challenges many long-held beliefs in the archery community. The study tested 34 vane configurations, 27 different broadheads, and multiple arrow diameters using a pneumatic shooting machine to eliminate human variables.
The results are eye-opening. Mechanical broadheads consistently outperformed fixed blades at distance, averaging 4-inch groups versus 7-inch groups at 70 yards. The Flex Fletch 360 emerged as the standout vane for balancing lift, drag, and noise. Perhaps most surprising were the findings about arrow noise with evidence suggesting animals are more likely to react to the sound of an approaching arrow than the initial bow report. This explains why vented broadheads might be undermining your hunting success despite their popularity.
Beyond the specific findings, this episode emphasizes the importance of honest self-assessment. The perfect setup isn't universal it depends on your shooting ability under pressure, hunting environment, and target species. Whether you're a tinkerer who obsesses over every component or someone who just wants a reliable setup, this research provides a framework for making informed decisions that match your actual needs rather than marketing hype.
Ready to rethink your arrow setup? Listen now to discover how science can help you build a more forgiving, accurate, and effective hunting arrow that matches your true shooting ability and hunting style. The data doesn't lie but you need to be honest with yourself about what it means for your bowhunting success.
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All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the archery project. I'm your host, Zach Placica, I've got Brian Gay here and we've got a good podcast for you guys today. This is pretty an informative podcast and this is all comes to light from the aeroballistic study that James Yates and the crew did out in Easton's facility in Salt Lake City, Utah, right, Yep. So a lot of really good information came from this and I think it was important for the archery community. And when I first kind of looked at it I was like, oh man, just a ton of data, too much information, almost. But then I started to look and watch his videos and read his articles a little bit more and it just really intrigued me the way they did this in the information that was generated and gained from it that is now going out to all the bow hunters in the world. It's great information.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, and there's a lot of it, and if you're just, if you take it in without context, it's, it's almost overwhelming.
Zakk Plocica:It is. So I talked to Cody Harrington the other day about this. We did a different podcast on it, um, and you know Cody's a very technical individual podcast on it. Um, and you know, cody's a very technical individual, sure, uh, cody harrington from here at extreme outfitters, a very technical individual, very intelligent and fantastic shooter. And we kind of broke it down a little bit, but I've continued to read and watch james yates actual video. He just started a youtube channel which is going to be very informative for all the bow hunters out there. Oh yeah, um, it was just, and it it was. It was great man, it was the.
Zakk Plocica:The testing was very thorough, very well done. And this goes back to James Yates is an incredible bow hunter, right, he's a Western bow hunter and he has. He was the perfect one to do this test because he is an engineer by day, right. So it's not just some random dude up there who's like me, like trying to conduct a test. I'm not saying I'm I'm not very intelligent, but I'm not at that level of understanding data and how to portray data and I don't have the means to do it. He just did a fantastic job with it and was able to articulate it to guys like us who are able to interpret it and understand it very well. I think he did they. They just did.
Bryan Gay:He knocked it out of the park man, yeah, and there's multiple times. He says look, hey, you're going to have to be honest with yourself and then take a look at this data and do a self-assessment of where you're at and how to take this which blew my mind, cause no one says that right. I mean you look back historically. People are like you need to do this, you need to do that, I mean.
Zakk Plocica:I mean that's and I think and I think that's one of the a great point, right? Anybody that says this is exactly how you should do it is probably not as good or proficient as they claim to be. I think, especially when it comes to the archery side of things, there's a lot of ways. There's a lot of different ways to do this man to tune a bow, to build an arrow, tactics, techniques I mean the archery community as a whole, a lot of it. Especially if you go on social media, you look at any of my social, you look at any of my brand social stuff. Dude, people are just this is exactly how you do it. I mean, we kind of eat our own in a way. Absolutely, it's not everybody, but there is a lot of that that goes on. People just think they have it absolutely dialed in and I don't think they're quite as well versed or proficient as they believe they are. It's just easy to get on social and claim to be.
Zakk Plocica:Sure, it's kind of funny, yeah, but so, moving into this, this was the largest independent aeroballistic study ever done. There's nothing that has even come close to doing what they did. I mean this was very in depth. This was a long time coming. It took them a while to put it together and they did. And the reason this was so important for bow hunters is one the lack of third party testing for all of the products that claim to do a specific thing. Um, the manufacturer claims verse reality, right, right, you know it's, it's easy, uh, and I think it's normal, not just the archery industry, but industries as a whole. We built this product, it's the best product, this is what it does, and there's no one vetting that.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, it's super easy and that's you know. We talked about it a little bit beforehand. If I just say, hey, this is the best product ever, and I know that you have a huge following and I send it to you, you're going to take off with it and say, yeah, this is great, whether you believe in it or not. And that's why this study is so very important, because they took all of that and they even published it and they said you know the influencers aren't checked.
Bryan Gay:This is true. No one's checking these things, we're just oh, this guy has a lot of followers and we can get behind him, or let him hitch his wagon, ours for a time being, to up our sales, up our stuff, and then we're going to go ahead and push. But that's I mean. It was published in the article, yep.
Zakk Plocica:They did a good job. It's very easy. I mean, that's what the influencers do, and by no means are all influencers like that Correct. Sure, obviously, a lot of your bow hunters that are successful good bow hunters. They use product they believe in. I think that there are some, some really great guys out there doing doing good work, but there are others who are not necessarily as well versed. They've got into it because of the social media side of things and they're very good at whether it's media, photography, videography, whatever it is. They can put together and display something and then they can. They have brands that approach them because they've got the following and they push this out. Whether it's real or not, they don't care. Claim to fame, move forward, keep it moving, and this was a great job. This study dude is flying about the ninja chop out of here. I want to see it the ninja chopping stuff yeah they see it's coming after you now.
Zakk Plocica:nope, so this was. They just did a really good job. It's real world, world, real world, data driven results and answers again that are documented in in a digestible way for the public to read. So, again, shout out to James Yates and his team. They did an incredible job and and he, like I said, he just doesn't, he articulated articulates it in a way that's dumbed down that I was able to understand it and honestly makes me start considering how.
Zakk Plocica:I mean cause I've never been a tinkerer right, never. So I'm the guy run what you brung, shoot what you got, you know, as long as the bow's in tune, I'm not the guy going out there chasing that perfect arrow. Never have been. It's never interested me enough to to go pursue that Right. I mean, some guys really go down the rabbit hole with it and I just I haven't. I've been more so like what do we got that's pre-fletched? In this configuration, I'll run it. I know that arrow's cut down correctly. I'm looking for an overall arrow weight and speed out of my bow. For me, that's about as in-depth as I've really got, and this kind of brought things to light and made me consider a couple of different things. One as a shop owner how I set people up, sure.
Bryan Gay:From how I set people up, sure, from the bow to the arrow side, uh, so just, great man, yeah, but there's so many different variables, right, especially when you so what they did with this pneumatic shooter that Easton has. It takes that out, right. So as a shop owner, you can't take that human element out. So you're basically going to have to rethink how you fit arrows to the bow, not only, but also the person.
Zakk Plocica:Right, and so that and that.
Zakk Plocica:That goes back to the thing that that brought to light was the forgiveness. Um, in the setup for you, and especially when we're looking at talking about new shooters or people that just you know, maybe aren't as good under pressure, building something to the standard for them that is as forgiving as possible, the bow that they select to the arrow that's coming out of that bow. Building something that makes that ultimately sets them up for success. And I think that's why this testing was so good, because you can look at that and you can have no data on the individual in the shop, but you can have an idea of what's going to be the most forgiving to set up that individual up, to make them successful as a new hunter. Because you know the archery is tough. I mean, it takes a lot of reps and a lot of time behind the riser in order to become good at it, and there's a lot of learning curves, oh yeah, and this, I think, kind of speeds those learning curves up in a sense to help out people, especially in our position.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, and you can't just look at this study right and say, oh look, this one plotted the best on the graph for those three axes. This is the one I'm going to use, because I'm going to shoot holes in all of that, and James Yates does also. He said, yeah, this may be good on this aspect. However, look at it from here. Look at it from here. What's best for you?
Zakk Plocica:Right, yeah, so the reason the study was needed again going back to it is the lack of standardization and aerobalistics testing. Right, there's things that are claimed that might not necessarily be true, and there's things that are claimed that might not necessarily be true, and there's things that haven't been claimed, that we don't even know, that they're bringing to light now. And then the other thing is the confusion caused by the marketing claims which we already talked about. Right, marketing is king in today's age In order to get in front of people. If you have the best product in the world, it doesn't matter if you can't get in front of the right people or you can't get it in front of your target audience. And that's what marketing is. Marketing brings products to light, gets them in front of people, and a lot of that can have can come down to the amount of money you have in order to put into the marketing industry. Right, marketing is king. You can have the biggest piece of shit, king. You can have the biggest piece of shit. And if you've got the best marketing strategy or team or dollar to back that, you can bring this product up and get in front of everybody and sell a ton of it. And it might not be the best product.
Zakk Plocica:So this study, it gets rid of all of that For the most part, for it does. I mean it's about as unbiased as you can get. It's just data driven. There is no saying it did something while it does something else. It's the results speak for themselves. They're all plotted, there's no question. This is how this performed. They took the human error out of it. They put it in that nomadic shooting machine from Easton which is insane. I mean they were putting repeatedly when we were kind of moving ahead here, but the field point side of things, two to two and a half inch groups at 70 yards consistently every single time.
Zakk Plocica:So they removed the human error side of things and they also took and put error into the bow.
Bryan Gay:They took it out of tune to see which would correct Right. So I mean they did it all, which would assume. Or if you got a bow that's out of tune, or you put some hand torque in it or you make a bad shot, like what you said, what's going to be the most forgiving setup for you? Yes, so they said they did it all.
Zakk Plocica:That was the whole point of it. Right to see how well the vein side of things did in correcting the flight of the arrow, right. So we talk about lift, we talk about drag, and this is that's my wheelhouse.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, that's a lot. I'm dealing with aircraft for my entire adult life, right, I know?
Zakk Plocica:a lot, yeah. So that's why you're a great guest to have on about this. But before we get into all of it, you know the team behind the study. I wanted to shed light on them because obviously it took a team for in order for them to do this. So you've got Tristan at Precision Cut Archery. They have the software and we're able to do the drag coefficient analysis. They do all of your site tapes and stuff like that. Um, pretty incredible what they, what they're doing, how they're getting, um, speed measurements at two different distances, and then they're able to calculate the drag coefficient seat of the arrows in order to create their site tapes and stuff. Um, pretty, pretty neat.
Zakk Plocica:And then, obviously, you've got Easton Archery. They had their shooting machine and they had all of their engineers and they were the ones I think they used for the most part. They used their arrow. That they used, for the consistency, was an Easton Axis 5 mil. So they did a bunch of them, but they had one that was a consistent. It was a 27-inch Easton Axis 5 mil. So they did a bunch of them, but they had one that was a consistent. It was a 27-inch Easton Axis 5 mil with an AAE max stealth on the back. That was the arrow that they used, but they used Easton's facility to do all this testing right.
Zakk Plocica:And then you had, which was also interesting, the Archery Sound Lab which did all the vein noise testing, which is very cool because they were able to remove all the background noise. We try to do some arrow testing on veins ourself and it's just very difficult to repeat with all the different variables outside, all the outside noise. They were able to eliminate that and see exactly how the veins sound. And then how the veins sound to the deer downrange, because they say it sounds different to the animal versus what it does to a human. So a lot of testing going on within this. And then you had Black Ovis, which built over 300 arrows for them, and then again James Yates himself, who again a date, a full-time engineer, who led this study and put it all together. Fantastic job. So all testing was independent, with supposedly no manufacturer bias, which it seems like reading and watching the study holds true?
Bryan Gay:Sure, so I did listen to something he produced a while ago, like we were talking about Easton Arrows, the way that they're built in, in his opinion. Right, it generally takes far less knock tuning than anything else because it's not the traditional wrap and roll of the carbon, right it's? I wrote it down.
Bryan Gay:It's the AccuWeave, but it's a specific type. He said here we go. It's a pultrusion method. I don't know what that means. Yeah, so as it's weaved through, the whole arrow is pulled out of the weave as it comes through the pultrusion method. So there's no traditional spine. He said the victories have the spine alignment, which is, eh, it gets close but it's not as good because there's no traditional wrap-and-roll spine.
Zakk Plocica:So that's another reason they went with the Eastern arrows. I mean, shout out to them at the proofs in the pudding because that's that's what I use. Yeah, it is me too, and it's I. It's. It's interesting because, depending on the comments you get when we talk about Noctune and they're like I have to Noctune my Eastern arrows and I don't, typically I shoot them through paper. If I get a bullet hole, I run it. Um, like that's my starting point. Yes, uh, I don't. I don't typically have noctune or choose not to noctune most things. Uh, but it seems like the eastern arrows you don't really have to, but depends on who you talk to. On out there, right, there's a lot of guys that say I absolutely have to noctune my eastern arrows and for some people who may be a little bit more particular, that's, that's probably the case.
Bryan Gay:I only do it when I throw a broadhead on it. Do you, yeah that?
Zakk Plocica:makes sense. Um, so there's a couple key things that need that, um, when they we go to this study, uh, in terms that you need to know to interpret this study, one is the arrow drag. That was one of the major things considered and that was the opposing for the opposes posing forward motion. So the drag of the. So the drag of the arrow right, the drag of the arrow can be impacted based off the length of the arrow, the vein configuration on the back, the broadhead, whatever you do, is always going to impact the drag of the arrow. And then they talk about lift, which is, um, what stabilizes the arrow. So, when we're talking about the vein side of things, they have his statement is you want the least amount of drag with the most amount of lift is ideally right.
Zakk Plocica:No drag, more lift. And then, um, you've got drag coefficient. So they say, think of it at like, ballistic coefficient for arrows, and then lift recovery. Um, this was big.
Zakk Plocica:When we talk about the veins is how well the veins correct arrow flight. So, which is critical, depending on, as we'll as we further move into this episode critical depending on what you strap on the front of that arrow right. How well that arrow recovers is going to be based off the configuration on the back and sometimes it's going to take more or it can take less depending on the size of the head that you're shooting on that arrow. So, again, typically, when they look at the veins, more lift is going to equal more drag. So the goal is balance right.
Zakk Plocica:If you're shooting something that's a little bit smaller, you typically need, like, for example, a field point, you need less lift to correct that arrow Right. But as the head gets bigger, you typically need greater lift, which is also going to increase the drag in order to stabilize and steer that arrow better. So those are some of the key terms arrow drag, lift, drag coefficient, lift recovery are all key words or things that were brought up in this study, that are on repeat that help make sense of what's going on for the study, for this ballistic study. So, moving into more of the testing, the goals and the testing methodology behind it, one of the big things was understanding how components affect aeroflight.
Zakk Plocica:Okay, Right yeah sure, I think, as bow hunters, there's so many options for us out there when it comes to vane configuration, broadheads, and everyone has an opinion on what is best. Yeah, absolutely Right, and this brings it to light without the human error side. Yes, um, and this brings it to light with out the human error side. Um, what's preferred, performed best, based off the configuration on the rear of the arrow, and that is your vein selection.
Bryan Gay:So, and then we're going to take it a step further, because you can't just say, looking at the charts, plotting this is the best vein, because you're not taking in how good a shooter are you. Do you need more lift, recovery, do you need more forgiveness, do you need xyz? Where are you shooting? What's your max distance? You know there's there's variables and everything, so you can't just look at this graph as a single snapshot, which is what I did in the beginning. Right, let's look at the graph, let's go to all three axes. Let's go lift, let's go recovery, let's go noise, let's go recovery, let's go noise. Right, that's the best vein, maybe not.
Zakk Plocica:Maybe if you're not a fantastic shooter. Or what James brings to light is, if you're not a fantastic shooter, under pressure, Sure, If you crumble when that critical moment presents itself, you know maybe you need and you need you need something with a little bit more lift recovery, even though you're shooting a smaller mechanical broadhead because you need a more forgiving setup right, and even greater so if you're shooting the fixed blade side of things. So that's where you got to be realistic with yourself and say, hey, I don't shoot as much as I should, and if you're not great at ranging things.
Bryan Gay:Yes, animals move. You may range an animal at 27 odd number right, and then you're come to full draw and it's moving. So you want to be able to have as little variable as possible. That meaning, if I let that arrow rip at 27, because that's what my single pin sight is set at, it's only going to drop half an inch at 37. You know, for instance, that to me is the forgiveness that I want, right.
Zakk Plocica:That comes back to the drag side of things that he talks about.
Bryan Gay:Trajectory speed, the drag, the lift I mean all of that kind of all rolls in. That's why this is so crucial, you know, to don't just take a snapshot of the graph and look at it. You need to go through and dig and figure out but you.
Zakk Plocica:But it gives you the starting point as where you an idea where you can start with those products right, versus starting way over here. You're like, wow, this clearly is not a great option for me it's too small there's no lift in it.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, it's quiet. Yeah, there's no drag'm shooting. You know, a monster fixed blade, probably not a good idea. Let's start over on this side, sure so? So the goal again, optimizing arrows for the hunting side of things, for the bow hunters, and the variables that were tested were arrow diameter, arrow length. They had 34 vein configurations, which is crazy. And then they tested 20 different, 27 different heads heads, and that included broadheads and field tips. So, going back to what I was talking about before, they had a controlled baseline build. The controlled baseline build was an Easton Axis 5 mil. It was cut at 27 inches and it had three max stealth vanes on the back half of it. The field tip that they used was the gold tip, easy pull. That was for the field tip side of things For the controlled arrow. For the broadhead, they had the sever 2.0, which was their mechanical, and then they used the iron wheel wide, the 100 grain, which was their fixed.
Zakk Plocica:Again, what Brian was talking about too out of this is the bow was not set up perfect right, so they tuned it and then they detuned the bow essentially right to simulate imperfect real world setups. So they took, they put a little bit of cam, lean into the cam, and then they took it out of center, shot so left, and so your horizontal axis. They took it out of center, shot a little bit, um, and that's how they shot the bow and they, you know that's how they based everything off of. So all the data that they tracked um was using what they called a PCA software and they had two Garmin chronographs, the X zero chronographs, set up. One was, I want to say it was like a foot or half a foot away from the bow, and then they had another one down range at like 70 yards, and they took those two points and that's how they were able to um. For the precision cut archery guys to calibrate, to calibrate the um ballistic coefficient, I guess.
Bryan Gay:Right that yeah, so you just see the drag. Yeah, compare the two speeds yes and come up with a drag coefficient from a to b which is over distance right, kind of cool.
Zakk Plocica:I'd be interested to do it myself figure out what that formula is and looking at it.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, I don't think I have enough brain for it. Yeah, but I plug it in something because it's speed and precision. Precision cut archery, yeah, speed distance, over time, something like that. I mean, it's a lot of numbers, a lot of math.
Zakk Plocica:I really should have listened better in math class. Yes, yeah, that's a lot. So these are the guys to do this. If there's any kind of testing, these are the dudes to do it. They put it all together team and they've set this thing up for success with all of the different um variables that were tested, Sure, Right. So you know, what was interesting to going right into it is that the accuracy of the broadheads yeah. Um so top mechanical sever 2.0 sever 2.0 and the 1.5.
Zakk Plocica:Yep sever 2.0. Sever 2.0 and the 1.5 yep um non-hybrid, non-hybrid. They also had the thorn rift 2.2 and the schwacker 261 were all the top performing mechanical broadheads yeah, two to three inch groups at 70 yards consistently consistently and that is almost on par with the field tips that they tested.
Zakk Plocica:Yes, like when it talks about a forgiving broadhead of choice. The Severs, the Thorn Rift and the Schwacker 261 were at the top of the list. Just incredibly good shooting broadheads. Which is kind of surprising because I didn't think the 2.0 would be quite as consistent and accurate because it's longer. But they said some of the longer ferrules yes, it had more drag, but it didn't necessarily affect the accuracy of it, which was cool. I mean more drag doesn't necessarily mean worse accuracy. Correct.
Bryan Gay:I mean any vein you put on, it is going to create drag. However, that drag is necessary to create your lift.
Zakk Plocica:Right, right, right, but we're just talking about just the broadhead, not even the veins, kind of things.
Bryan Gay:It almost runs along the same lines, I would imagine.
Bryan Gay:You're talking about the length, yeah you have to strap a broadhead on the front of it. No one's hunting with a field point, right? So I would assume you would want the thing that's going to shoot closest to your field points, because that's what you do everything with you know, hopefully saying you shoot off-season, that's where you're centered around. I mean, we shoot 3D for you know, six months in the off-season and make sure, like all our stuff's dialed and dialed and dialed, we don't put the bow down, right.
Zakk Plocica:I was just shooting some severs. Yesterday, me and Joey was just shooting some severs.
Bryan Gay:Uh, yesterday me and joey were outside shooting some um, some media stuff, and I put a 2.0 on there and I shot it out. How far did I shoot that? Like 70 yards, yeah, 70, I do. It's a tag driver dude. I took that 175 hybrid and I mean I didn't put it anywhere on social, but I mean I drug it out to 90 yards and I missed yeah no deviation from your field point very little at 90, I'd say at at 60, dead on 70, 80, 90 getting out really stretching it.
Zakk Plocica:Then that's when the drag starts to really come in, because it is a little bit more and I was shooting the hybrids yeah, but I think, um too, I mean, so that doesn't necessarily you've got to mean you need to run these broadheads though, right, because this is extreme distance, right, and a lot of your East Coast guys, this is overkill when it comes to shooting out that far. So, you know, maybe you like a different broadhead a little bit more. I mean, and you're shooting within 40 yards, sure?
Bryan Gay:As long as you're consistent, you can make an ethical kill Right. That's what matters.
Zakk Plocica:And that comes to again testing your own equipment. Right, Because you can only read so much data and go off of studies or YouTube videos or articles, but you need to, at the end of the day, configure your setup and go out and test it and spend time behind it just to build the confidence and know that the equipment one is capable and two, you, behind the riser is a capable individual and you know kind of the trajectory and how that broadhead is going to perform. Because I'm a big believer in you should always sacrifice a broadhead in order to get real world testing for yourself, because you can strap those ballistic points on there or those points that simulate the broadhead.
Zakk Plocica:It's not the same. So, just in my opinion, sacrifice a broadhead. If you had one from last year, you're going to shoot those same heads again. Sacrifice one and run that, test it, see how it performs, and then you know. Going into the woods, I know exactly what this arrow and this broadhead are going to do. I have all the confidence in the world with it. So if there is a failure, it's typically going to be on my end yeah, and that that's again why this was so crucial.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, you know, um, even the mechanicals back to it. I mean, the severer hybrid and the beast were at three to three and a half inch groups, yeah, which is at 70 yards. 70 yards, that's fantastic. Shooting better than I can, I'm pretty sure that either one of us can right so amazing let's, let's roll back a little bit, dude.
Zakk Plocica:So I was shooting yesterday, I was on, man, yeah, I was on. So after joey left, yeah, I went shot yesterday evening with my son, um, and, dude, I stretched that bow out. I was shooting like 88 yards on that elk target. I got out there, man, and I feel like I am like with that hinge, like I'm, I'm continuing. Obviously, archery is constantly evolving. You're constantly working to improve and that's why shooting all year is critical, because technique and form really break down if you don't spend time behind your bow and I've been shooting my bow a lot, a lot more than I ever have, um, and I can tell because, at distance and one figuring out my setup, playing with my back bars and you know just how my quivers mounted, um, that accu, archery, sos hunter, elite system on my shorter bow, kind of really dialing in my bow for me.
Zakk Plocica:Um, I do, dude, my shooting, I feel like, is like improving like week after week, just the more arrows I put through it. And I really slow down and think through my shot process and my foreman technique and, you know, build it one um, one point at a time, whether it's for my footing, to my grip, to the way my shot breaks, how I'm staying in line. Um, I just feel like my shooting is really improving and, uh, dude, it feels good man, because, yeah, you get, you get close to the season, you get excited and you're like, man, this is gonna be the year. Whether it is the year or not, you know that, you're, you're you've done, everything you've done everything you can to be successful.
Bryan Gay:Yeah yeah, hold, I was out there shooting with milkshake the other day. Who is milkshake? He's a. He's a buddy of mine. He just got the ax2 at 80 pounds from you guys.
Zakk Plocica:Okay, off season a 29 or 32 oh, it's 29.
Bryan Gay:Oh yeah, um, he was out shooting me, was he.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, that's a good shooting bow man it's a shorter bow, but it shoots really really well I mean I was, the acoustics weren't right.
Bryan Gay:I just got done working out I was just tired you know i's a story of my life.
Zakk Plocica:Anytime we go to TAC.
Bryan Gay:Yeah.
Zakk Plocica:I mean, I didn't lose any arrows. Oh, that's good. I've yet to lose an arrow at TAC. You just lose them at your house, dude, did you see? Oh, so, did you see that video I posted Did?
Bryan Gay:you hear that it yeah.
Zakk Plocica:Everyone on the comment says so. If you haven't seen it, you go to my Instagram. It's Zach Placica and you look at this video I posted. It says turn the sound up. But I was shooting a group and each shot breaks very clean. And then this shot breaks and it sounds like a whistle. Yeah, it's very, it's. It sounds crazy. You may have had a torn vein. It was crazy. You may have had a torn vein. It was not. I know it was not a vein issue and everyone in the comments is saying kind of leaning toward broken knock. I cannot find the arrow. I'm still on the hunt for it so I can inspect it and figure it out. But the arrow flight was weird because it shot high, it made a crazy noise and then it like flipped and I can't find it. But I'm usually pretty good about inspecting my equipment after I shoot and pull arrows just to make sure everything's good. I don't know what I missed, but yeah, it's odd.
Bryan Gay:It was crazy sounding, or it almost sounded like it didn't have a field point on it.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, but it had to have, because that arrow would have been like weighed nothing, Right, because it's a Sonic 6.0. Yeah, 0.0. Yeah, I don't know what it was, but it was crazy sounding. I had to go back and slow the video down and I zoomed in and put it on my Instagram for people to look at. It was just weird. So I'm curious. I want to find the arrow and see what exactly happened so I can hopefully prevent that from happening again. Yep, we'll see.
Zakk Plocica:So that was top mechanicals. Back to the fixed blade side of things. The evolution jackal was the best fixed blade and it had three inch groups, which kind of surprised them, because some of the um fixed blade broadheads had less drag than mechanicals. So, yes, and outshot mechanicals, sure, so he, he even said he was a little bit surprised with that, because the fixed blades average of seven inch groups. This is an average over all of them. Yep, fixed blades, the group was much greater seven inch group for them at 70 yards versus mechanicals all your mechanicals the average was a four inch group.
Zakk Plocica:So right, there tells you. Especially for me, when I'm looking at new shooters, I want the most forgiving setup. I'm probably going to err on the side of mechanicals for a new shooter, especially in order to have a more forgiving setup, because clearly mechanicals did group better, aside from like the Jekyll and the Iron Will Wide 100 grain. So if you're somebody that doesn't spend a lot of time broadhead tuning, doesn't understand vein configuration and pairing that with your broad broadhead, you probably want the most forgiving head and that looks and is going to be the mechanical side of things absolutely mechanical broadheads yeah, there are more forgiving.
Zakk Plocica:the data is there, there's no question anymore. A mechanical broadhead I think most people know, especially obviously you bow hunters who hunt all the time, you know. But the mechanical broadheads are more forgiving out to distance. But when we talk about mechanical broadheads, everyone wants to bring up the. They have the ability to fail. Sure, right, absolutely. They do, like anything has the ability to fail. But when you look at like a sever, especially a hybrid or some of these others, um, most of them have still like a half inch cutting a hybrid or some of these others, most of them have still like a half inch cutting diameter. So let's say they don't deploy, you're still getting almost what you're getting out of some of your fixed blades.
Bryan Gay:Sure, but if you look at let's just look at anomaly right Four inch group overall for my mechanicals, right that in Eastern whitetail deer that is, I'm still in the kill radius. If I had same shot at a seven inch radius, I'm either shooting brisket or right at the top of the back. There goes my forgiveness right there. So even if it I have the chance of mechanical failing, I'm still in the kill zone, whereas I would not be with a fixed blade Right.
Zakk Plocica:I. I'd be curious to like what's the actual fail rate of these broadheads? I'm not talking about your cheap broadheads. We're not referring to those. I'm not talking about your Walmart broadheads. Yeah, I'm sure those are much more likely to fail If you're buying anything at.
Bryan Gay:Walmart, you're in trouble.
Zakk Plocica:You're in your own thing, we're not the right podcast, we're not the right company for you because you know, I, I believe in you owe it to the animal to invest in halfway decent quality equipment and the Walmart equipment for me ain't it. It's just not. Uh, I'd be curious what the fail rate really is on mechanicals, because anytime you hear somebody like I just couldn't recover the animal, the broadhead failed. Was it really the broadhead or was it the individual? Was it the shot placement? There's a lot of things to consider. Everyone's quick to to, you know, jump on and you know the mechanical. The broadhead did it. You know what are the other factors. I'm not saying it didn't, but I'm just saying I'd like to see the testing, you know they took out those factors Right, right, and you're still at a seven inch group.
Zakk Plocica:I mean, well, I'm just talking about them actually deploying. Sure, you know, like, what's the fail rate for these mechanical broad? Your quality, your severs and stuff like that? I just don't see them as really. I mean, even if only one side deploys, you've still got a massive cutting diameter. So I'd be curious, you know, if they did that, testing what the fail rate is on these different mechanical broadheads, to bring that to light to people to say, hey, this is what the fail rate actually is, it's X percent.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, that's. I still think it's. It's less than point zero one.
Zakk Plocica:I agree it's probably far less than what people make it out to be, but I think the data would be good for people to be able to look at and say, oh yeah, the fail rate is would be good for people to be able to look at and say oh yeah, the fail rate is 1%.
Bryan Gay:So now let's on the other end of that spectrum. Right, people are blaming fixed blades on zero blood trail. Yeah, absolutely right, which, I mean, is a valid point. It's not a great hole, right, it's what you get. Is what you get if it's, if it's a 1.5, that's a 1.5 inch cut, you have zero. I mean, that's it. You're not getting any expansion from it, which, and then the forgiveness end of it yeah, so, and that comes back to the shooter, right?
Zakk Plocica:so somebody that doesn't spend a lot of time behind the bow, probably not a best choice for a fixed blade, but somebody that is very capable individual. James yates, bode turner, um, dan uh, from elk shape, these guys that shoot all the time, they can get away with a lot more. Uh, one, they're very in tune with their equipment. Two, they spend a ton of time shooting a bow. They understand the shot process. They've put themselves in those high stress situations. Obviously you can look at the amount of animals that they've killed. Sure, they can get away with a lot more. And I think it comes down to application as well.
Zakk Plocica:When we talk about the fixed blade broadheads, I think everything has a place. You just have to be realistic with yourself. For me, heads, I think everything has a place. You just have to be realistic with yourself. Um, for me, the mechanical just it just takes the cake. It's a little. For me, it makes it's it's more forgiving. Um, I'm confident in them, especially a good head, the sever heads which is I've been running the last couple of years. Um, same, they just perform really, really well. They're yet to let me down. Uh, the technology in them is really cool with those pivoting blades, how they lock, and I proved it they they three weeks ago yep, they pivot and you can secure them so you can use them as a test head where they don't actually deploy.
Zakk Plocica:So there's just a lot. I've got a lot of confidence in that. But the same could be said for uh, for somebody that spends a lot of time on that fixed blade, if they found that perfect configuration, veins, size, diameter, and they've built that arrow, that is just they're confident in run it the iron wheels the iron wheels, clearly are phenomenal. People rage about them all the time and it's a very popular broadhead. Same thing with the evolution uh, jekyll yep they're. I mean, they're good broadheads.
Zakk Plocica:They group really well, they're forgiving obviously yeah, um, it's just you got to kind of look at yourself as a shooter as a whole, what you're doing, what you plan to do, what your capability is, and then build based off of those factors, absolutely so you know lots to consider lots of variables, like you've said. I mean, there's just there's a lot, sure, there is a lot, and you can't.
Bryan Gay:So they try to take the human out of it, right, right, which is what they did. Um so, but that's where it comes down to a self-assessment of how good a shooter you are, how like you can wish in one hand and crap in the other one. Yeah, you ain't gonna shoot the machine, correct, you're not? I mean, I'm not shooting three inch groups at 70 yards, I'll tell you that right now. But I'm gonna set myself up. Hold on you're not shooting what? Three inch groups at 70 yards?
Zakk Plocica:dude I let's get back to. Yesterday was the day I was on man.
Bryan Gay:They were freaking tight at 88 yards boy that was with a field point though yeah, so well, I mean you shoot that severed should be about the same it should be up, dude, I'm telling you, whenever we shot the, the, the one yesterday, man, that thing just flew fantastic.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, but yeah, back to what you're talking about.
Bryan Gay:Sorry it's, you really have to take a look at if you're going to put a fixed blade on there. You probably need a little more vein on the back, just because that fixed blade is a wing. Yes, it's a wing on the front, so it's already doing its own lift and drag. Now I have to get the back of the arrow to follow it to steer it. Yeah well, I just got to keep it in line, right, right so, and they even did three vein versus four vein. I mean, it's for him. It's not worth it because you're not getting a third more performance out of that extra vein, right?
Zakk Plocica:yeah, that makes sense. You know what I mean.
Bryan Gay:So I've already got three on there. If I put a fourth on there, am I even gaining a quarter more Right, just get more drag.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah.
Bryan Gay:Is it steering a fourth better than it would with three? And it's not Okay, yeah, I missed that part. Yeah, so yeah.
Zakk Plocica:I mean like they talk about. You want more lift, less drag. Obviously, with the bigger head you're going to have to have more, even greater lift, but greater lift equals more drag when it comes to vein configuration. So you've got to consider that. How far are you shooting the bow exactly? That's another big factor.
Bryan Gay:Right, if you're within 20 yards, you can get away with a lot sure, but if you go, so now you start waiting this arrow down here, we go with that too. So you got to look at the forgiveness of it and how good a shooter are you. Can you gap shoot? You know a gap that's two inches in your sight group that's, if that's 30 yards well, that was again.
Zakk Plocica:That's what he talks. Your sight group that's if that's 30 yards. Well, that was again that's what he talks about. Forgiveness, he wants any cause. He's looking at Western hunt, right, he's talking about those further shots. He wants a flatter trajectory.
Zakk Plocica:You know, all the points that you've made. He wants an arrow that you know if his shot isn't perfect, it corrects. So maybe it requires a little bit more lift on that vein to steer that mechanical. He shoots that mechanical because it is a more forgiving broadhead, so he's setting himself up for success with the way he builds his arrow. Again, he focuses on forgiveness and quietness. Those are other key things that we'll talk about as we get into it. You know what his factors are when building a hunting arrow.
Bryan Gay:He did a podcast with um elk shape while ago and he said he can be off up to 30 yards on his guests right For range and still have a 10 inch group. That's pretty good. Isn't that ridiculous? That's I mean. What. Do you know what he's Bowie's shooting? Uh, it was. It was a Hoyt RX seven and RX seven.
Zakk Plocica:I wonder how fast? Or 287. So the same thing we preach 285 to mid-290s is like the sweet spot when it comes to trajectory tunability and performance out of a bow. In my opinion, that's how all my bows are set up. I think it was 287.
Bryan Gay:Now he's shooting a little faster.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, I don't typically do anything north of 300 feet per second for a hunting rig. I mean, it's like I think my mach 33 right now is like 289, 298, 299, yeah, and then my, uh, mach 30s, 290s or something like that. Yeah, what's your lift shooting, do you remember?
Bryan Gay:it is 306. That thing's screaming fast, but it's at 80 pounds yeah, I would definitely make my arrow heavier. Yeah, no way, I'm at 440 yeah, right, and it's just fast, that's all right does it shoot that broadhead?
Zakk Plocica:fine, oh yeah, does it. Well then you're in no problem there. Yep, all right. So drag the most aerodynamic broadheads, the lowest drag. Um, the thorn rift.
Zakk Plocica:The beast was like up there, like number one, I think. The beast was like one or two, and then the sever one, five. Yep. So, based off the design of those broadheads, that makes sense. Less drag, less surface area, you're gonna. And again, lower drag, your trajectory is better, sure, right, then the increase in the amount of drag, it slows it down. You're gonna have a more of an arc in that trajectory versus that flat trajectory. Uh, and then one of the things they said that was surprisingly aerodynamic were the fixed blades, the Magnus Stinger and the Iron Wheel Solid, that 100 grain, they said they were incredibly aerodynamic as well. So when we talk about like aerodynamic and stuff, one of the things he made a good point with was the vented side of things. So when things are vented, one, they're louder, but two, it decreases their aerodynamics, which is to me I've never understood and maybe it's just me being not well-versed or just don't have the understanding, but I've just never understood the vented side of anything.
Bryan Gay:So you want to get a wider cut but keep the grain weight down. So that's how they do it.
Zakk Plocica:Okay. Right, so they want to go to the it just doesn't make sense to me, though, because if you've ever shot one, they whistle.
Bryan Gay:Right, well, that's where the drag comes in. That's a direct correlation of the drag. Is that sound?
Zakk Plocica:right, which for me, just knowing that, as someone who's not an engineer, I look at that and I'm like I don't think I want that in the woods well, something if you're shooting 20 yards and in so, and here's another one.
Bryan Gay:Well, I mean, we'll be even further. The further away the animal is right, the less they're going to hear the bow go off well, did you hear what he said about the bow going off?
Zakk Plocica:he's not worried. He's not concerned about the bow going off, right, because it's one and done. It's like a stick breaking he's concerned. Arrows coming through that's what he's concerned about is the arrow.
Bryan Gay:So that's why, to me, it make the vented side of things makes no sense whatsoever, because it just increases the noise if you're shooting 285 feet a second or faster, 20 yards, and in the sound of the bow and the whistle of the arrow are going to be so simultaneous, it's not going to matter didn't you just have a hog duck and arrow? Uh, yeah, no, that was probably me okay yeah, all right well I went back and redeemed myself okay, so, so, so it didn't.
Zakk Plocica:So you just shot high.
Bryan Gay:More than likely. Yeah, so it's, I wasn't, and I think you brought it up. Actually, we were probably 40 feet in a tree and that angle was extreme. Plus it was. It was as cool as a red hog it was. You know, I was excited. Yeah, I hadn't shot at an actual animal in quite a time, since last season, so it was just that's why I always pop a doe early season, just to get those jitters out and say, okay, now I'm back. Right, makes sense. So it was you. 100% yeah, because I went back what a week later, two weeks later, and proved it.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, Well, I mean, maybe that hog was training or something, dude, I don't know. He's on it, he knew he knew some stuff was not right, yeah. So the other thing too is, which we already hit on, drag does not equal accuracy, right, right. So the example that they, that they gave, was the sever 2.0. It was it had more drag than a majority of the broadheads, but it had the tightest groups. So you cannot equate to drag making it less accurate, which is interesting. Less or more, yeah, less or more, but it outperformed a majority of the broadheads the Sever 2.0, and it had more drag. So more drag, obviously it can make it maybe a little bit less forgiving.
Zakk Plocica:Though, when we talk about range estimation, right, sure, because the more drag, the slower it's going to drop that, the slower it's going to make that arrow which is going to increase that arc, as you have to shoot out the distance. So there's that to consider too. So you know, maybe if you're shooting within 40, 50 yards, that drag doesn't really matter, but maybe you're shooting those 70 to a hundred yard shots, depending on the animal you're hunting or the type of hunting you're doing. Maybe you need to go with something a little bit um, smaller, that has less drag. So you maintain that flatter trajectory. So again, all things you've got away, based off individual preference, capability and application.
Bryan Gay:Right, and if you go smaller, you can get away with a smaller vein. Yes, yep, I mean, that's it's. It's literally science, science, buddy. Yeah, breaking bad over here. I know science, we need lab coats and glasses.
Zakk Plocica:We don't know those guys do?
Bryan Gay:Yeah, definitely. Um, and that just goes to the prove their point right. So if you have less drag on the front of that arrow, prove their point right. So if you have less drag on the front of that arrow, you require less drag slash lift, because you can't have one without the other on the back of that arrow.
Zakk Plocica:Right. So that moves into the fletching configuration. And aerodynamics right. No, veins obviously equals the best aerodynamic or dynamics, but we all know that's not realistic. If you could just shoot a bare shaft you would have the most aerodynamic arrow there is. But that's not a realistic factor for us. We have to. As soon as we put a head on there, a broadhead on there, we've got to have something to steer that arrow or guide that arrow. And that's where veins come in. So the goal is to minimize drag but have enough lift to stabilize it, and that's finding that sweet spot. And then again it comes back to using the data that they plotted. That you can kind of pick and choose. Like I'm going to shoot this broadhead, maybe I should, probably. I should, probably shouldn't pair it with this minimal tiny vein I should probably look at. Okay, in this area of the chart, start with that vein configuration and it gives you a great starting point.
Bryan Gay:Absolutely Agreed, a hundred percent. I mean, you can't, like I said earlier, you can't just look at that one chart and say, for instance, dca, super savers, best vein ever Got it. Yep, that's what I'm putting on. But if you have that sever 2.0, that doesn't require that much vein, then you don't need it because you're also going to run into. Is it hitting my um? Is it hitting my riser, my cable guard, is it? You know, there's all those other things that come into play a little bit, I mean.
Bryan Gay:But the super super is not that tall, do you have to? Yeah, oh sure it is.
Zakk Plocica:I just looked at him the other day, not compared to the mini that I mean even I was looking at the supers yesterday and for some reason I always because I was looking at, because I was looking at those. I was looking at the supers yesterday and for some reason I always cause I was looking at that, cause I was looking at those and I was looking at the max Hunter, right.
Bryan Gay:Cause I was trying to compare.
Zakk Plocica:They're so loud. The DCA super vein are not. And the super vein, the super saber, was one of the best performing veins by far. But do you need that much? You don't necessarily need it, but I'm going going back to. I mean much, you don't necessarily need it, but I'm going going back to. I mean it had more lift and it had less drag. So, and do you pair that with a decent broadhead like a mechanical not we're not talking fixed, probably more mechanical for this. It's a great option for a lot of people because it is going to make that um set up a little bit more forgiving for you. And there's not a lot, there's not a lot of drag using those. Based off the information that they've got, no, and they've proved it.
Bryan Gay:That's why they went DCA, went with that design based on the airflow.
Zakk Plocica:He's a super techie guy. He's very in the weeds in that and he did a killer job with those things he did airflow testing. Airflow testing. That's what it was, yeah.
Bryan Gay:Obviously it job with. He did airflow testing. Airflow testing, that's what it was. Yeah, um, obviously, the more it's like a spoiler on a car is what they equate it to, the further away you get that vein, the more downforce you're going to create on the front right. So that's why he went with that profile and then he also came out with the mini, because you don't need that you can get away, yeah right if you can get away with it and then go a little bit lighter, because I don't want that much weight in the back.
Bryan Gay:Right, I want to put it up front, yeah I just I still it's.
Zakk Plocica:It's kind of it's hard for me to understand because that vein was so quiet and I looked at the max hunter and I'm like it's a similar profile. But I wonder what makes the dca that much quieter? Because it it was sure max hunter when you put it on. I mean we did our own testing on it.
Zakk Plocica:That is a loud, very loud, even with the mechanical even with the mechanic, I mean just at with a field point on there, it's incredibly loud, um, but it does steer really well, but and because it is that little bit taller profile, but it is, it's just loud man, it was a no-go for me because it was so loud absolutely so.
Zakk Plocica:Yep the it was so loud, absolutely, yep, the fletching that controlled the broad heads best right. So the best lift recovery vein was the AAE air razor Talon 3.0. Yep, that controlled broad heads better than any of them. The worst for broad heads was the Fletch FFP 187. It had 21 inches more of drift. That's a lot with a broadhead Right. So Right, there is good data. It's probably not your starting point for a broadhead, sure, I mean, the AAE Airazor Talon did really really good. And then the AAE I think it was the HPs, which is what Cody Harrington here shoots. They performed exceptionally well.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, the Flex Fletch Silent Knight 2-inch did really well. The top three were the Super Sabre. Yeah, the Flex Fletch Silent Knight 2-inch did really well. The top three were the Super Saber, tac Driver 2, 2 1⁄4, and the Flex.
Zakk Plocica:Fletch.
Bryan Gay:Silent Knight.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, I've shot the Super Saber and the Driver 2 1⁄4. I really like both those vanes. Adhering them was a little bit more tedious.
Bryan Gay:Yes, the Tac Driver specifically was very difficult. Difficult especially because it's such a stiff vein.
Zakk Plocica:It's so stiff and if you'd put any kind of helical on it, it's just it's hard to get it to adhere. But once it does it here, that bad boy is on there for life, right?
Bryan Gay:yeah, they and so well, I mean, then you got to look at right stiff veins. If it encounters any type of say it hits your rest, say it hits a leaf, say it's gonna steer that a little more, it's gonna cause it to come off course, but then it corrects itself obviously, which is why we have the veins on there right. So that's another thing to take into account. Um, I mean, there's just so much.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, there is a ton. And again, going back to it, that's why the data is so good, because they plotted it in a way that you can understand it and it gives you a starting point for anything. And back to the fletching that controlled broad heads best. So they measured. They were measured by drift with the iron wheel wide from a torqued bow setup and that's going back to we talked about they induced a little bit of hand torque or torque into that riser and they, um, detuned that bow in order and that's how they got the drift Right For those with that particular broadhead. So again, the best lift recovery, a razor town 3.0, the worst was the flex fletch FFP one, eight, seven. And you already made you already stated it the best combinations as far as vein configuration goes, with the balance of drag versus lift. Super saber was number one, one, yep, and then you had the track tack driver two and a quarter, and then your flex flex fletch silent night, two inch. Those were the best balance of drag versus lift recovery. Um, and it says for, for hunters who tend to rush or shank their shots using more lift heavy veins, or use more lift heavy veins like the AAE Talon, because if you're somebody who you know, you get under pressure and you start to kind of push that shot or pull that shot. You need that as much forgiveness in that setup. And that AAE Talon provided that. So it had more lift in order to provide a more forgiving vein configuration.
Zakk Plocica:And again we've said it, it's not a one size fits all. You have to look at what you're building. You need to match your vein with your accuracy level and your broadhead of choice. So when you're building your arrows earlier in the year, you need to be thinking ahead about what broadheads am I planning to shoot, if you're not someone that builds arrow specific for each application, right. So if you're like, this is the arrow I'm shooting this year, I'm going to shoot the east and 50 with 300 spine cut at 28 inches, I'm going to run a whatever x broadhead. You need to be thinking about that before you start fletching those arrows up, I think, because it's just going to set you up ahead of the game and you know, um that you're building your arrows, the end goal hunting application You've got. You've already setting yourself up for success.
Bryan Gay:Absolutely so. And then you got to take into effect or account, rather, how far are you actually shooting? That's a big one, I mean here in east north carolina 40 max, I don't know where you're.
Zakk Plocica:I don't know where you're hunting 40 yards if you find a field you know what I mean.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, if you get, that's like really pushing it.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, have you ever seen an animal in east your north carolina, in the woods at 40 yards? It looks so far.
Bryan Gay:Yes, it's crazy different I mean, there again, you need to take into account, you need to think about this before you even start this process what broadhead am I shooting? How, how good of a shot am I? And then you start working backwards from there, right, you know?
Zakk Plocica:um, it all comes down a lot of self-assessment, a lot of you know I mean that's I think that's the the cool thing about bow hunting, man is, is the challenge that comes with it? Right, if you're a bow hunter, it's. It's a different level of hunting. It's a different, obviously, a different style of hunting, because everything matters. You know one, your capability in the woods, your woodsmanship skills, right, how easily, how easy are you able to navigate in and out of the woods? You know you've got to consider access, you've got to consider wind, you've got to consider thermals, stand height, stand selection, um, because you're not shooting animals at 200 yards, you're up close, you're breathing, as John Dill would say, you're breathing the same air as that animal.
Bryan Gay:You can see it.
Zakk Plocica:On a cold morning you can see the steam coming off when that animal breathes. So you've got that. But then you need to take it a step further and be proficient with your equipment and be again confident and capable with that equipment. And if you're somebody that does the tinkering yourself, you know you need to do all that testing so that you're not going out there blind with it. Because we do see a lot of guys that tend to only pick their bow up as the season gets closer, which I think is a huge mistake, because you're not setting yourself up for success Again, form technique breakdown very quick if you're not behind a riser and then you just don't. You don't understand how your equipment works or how proficient it is or how forgiving it is when those you know it's easy to forget when you haven't hunted in a year picked your bow up.
Bryan Gay:Yeah Well, you're not doing right by the animal? No, you're not, absolutely not. You know what, and I'll be all you're you're not doing the best that you can for that animal Right.
Zakk Plocica:This, yeah, the another interesting thing was the quietness of the vein configurations, right, which has always kind of intrigued me, because you don't want something that's loud, right, obviously. That's why we're bow hunting. That's why we're bow hunting, but it's kind of hard to tell really how quiet something is whenever you're shooting a bow. It's hard to measure that. Or you know, you think you know something's quiet, but it's hard to tell. It's hard to measure that. Or you know, you think you know something's quiet, but it's hard to tell. So they went with what was it? The Archery, what was the name of it? The Archery Sound Lab? Yep, right, they did all the testing there. The FlexFletch 360 was the quietest vane and performed well for correcting arrow flight. The loudest vane was, again, a flex fletch quad. For fletch it was twice as loud in decibels. Yep, um. And one of the things he talks about is a quiet vein is going to equal less hiss, the sound of that arrow flying through the air, which is going to create less ducking or jumping of the animals. And one of the things James talked about again is that was one of his focuses a quiet vein, right, he wants something that has less of that hiss, as he refers it to because he thinks that is more detrimental to your hunt than the sound of the bow going off. Because, I agree again, everyone's like that that's a loud bow, right? Well, you're not taking into consideration the loudness of the arrow that you're choosing to shoot, right, because when the bow goes off, it goes off and it's done. Right, it's once that arrow is making that hiss or that noise and getting louder as it gets closer to the animal. So you, according to him, you want to minimize the sound or how loud your arrow is, and that comes down to the broadhead selection and, more so, the vein selection. So when everyone sees all of our videos and stuff, when we're shooting these bows inside, where it echoes and I've got a microphone right on my chest, right they're like oh, that bow is so loud. Well, maybe you should be less focused with how loud your bow is and more focused on how loud your arrow is. So his thing.
Zakk Plocica:Key tip that we talked about already avoid vented broadheads. Yeah, I mean, if you're shooting really close, like you talked about, and you want that bigger cutting diameter, maybe opt for a vented broadhead, but for most people that are shooting maybe further or really want to minimize the sound of their arrow, just avoid the vented broadhead. But for most people that are shooting maybe further or really want to minimize the sound of their arrow, just avoid the vented broadhead side of things, Um, and you'll do yourself good. And then look at the as far as on their chart, where you should be, as far as vein, noise, forgiveness, drag and, uh, lift, I mean, and take all those in consideration when choosing I and lift.
Zakk Plocica:I mean and take all those in consideration when choosing. I mean cause you could pick out five to six veins and if you want to test, test them yourself. Yeah, I mean you're not out in arm and leg to do that. Build up a couple of arrows and see for yourself. But I mean the data's there, Sure, and then you're a big four mil guy.
Bryan Gay:Yes.
Zakk Plocica:Right, are you running four mils?
Bryan Gay:I'm running five mils this year.
Zakk Plocica:Okay, so you are running five mils this year, so you've run four mil in the past, and we know, when it comes to, uh, arrow diameter selection, that the smaller diameter, the less surface area, typically, the less wind drift you get. Um, so you know there's a lot of people that opt for maybe that smaller diameter, um, you know. And then the other thing when we talk about diameter selection is component availability for those, so that you know. And then the other thing when we talk about diameter selection is component availability for those, so that kind of depending on what arrow diameter you're going with, you got to kind of look at components. But one thing that was interesting is the four mil had 10% less drag than the five mil arrow shaft, which sounds like a lot to me and that leads to a flatter trajectory and obviously less wind drifts, which holds true for somebody that's a Western hunter taking those longer shots, or you're someone that's just going to tack and you're shooting those hundred plus yard bomber shots. You know. Way less drag on a four mil over a five mil. Now compare that to a six or a six and a half. That's got to be dramatically less flat, flatter trajectory, less wind drift, be dramatically less um, flat, uh, flatter trajectory, less wind drift, sounds like a great arrow option for somebody that's really wants to take those, um, those longer shots. So when every inch counts on a hunt, right, when we're talking about ranging animals, we want to um, have, is it more room for error? I always say this more room for error. You know, and you're you're looking at arrow diameter. Maybe a four mil shafts a better option for you because there's that much less drag increasing and making that trajectory that much flatter.
Zakk Plocica:Sure, I've always been a five mil guys, but now it's got me thinking, which is probably I'll be overthinking this now, which I don't typically do. Um, I'm not changing my arrow setup for this year, but I do think, moving forward, if I plan on heading out West, I might do some more testing with the four mil side of things and just see if there's much of a difference for me. The only problem I have with the four mil is, for me, they're typically not as durable of a shaft as the five mil. That's why I ended up going with the five mil, because I know for me, the axis five mil. That's why I ended up going with the five mil, because I know, for me, the axis five mil, or even the Eastern five, oh um have just been incredibly durable shafts.
Bryan Gay:So, and I'll counter you right A, we're not shooting 80, 90 yards here, right?
Zakk Plocica:That's why I'm running 6.0s out of out of one of my bows because, I'm. I'm realistic and I understand the application. Right hunting east, east coast, north carolina, kentucky 50 yards max in kentucky. Honestly, let's be realistic, 20 to 25 yards is still what I'm aiming for. So my shots are close so I can't shoot that bigger diameter and then without worrying about wind drift or anything the big buck I shot last year with the four mil.
Bryan Gay:I tucked it in right in the Vital V and as he was running he broke that arrow off because it lodged in the offside shoulder.
Zakk Plocica:It would have broke anything. Yeah, exactly.
Bryan Gay:The hog I shot with the 5.0 broke that too. It's just because of the shot placement. It was almost exactly the same. I put it right in behind the shoulder and the deer actually poked through the skin just a little bit. The hog in behind the shoulder and it and the deer actually poked through the skin just a little bit. The hog it was wedged into his scap on the other side.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, so I mean it didn't go 20 yards, 30 yards, but that's I expect. That, right, I like, I. So I also like the five mil because of the component selection. I personally like easton's hit components. They're hidden, the recessed in the shaft, the, the hit, they're the excuse me, the half ounce, and stuff they do bend. I mean, right, you can, you can always opt for the titanium side of things where it's a little bit heavier, but then you look at the price of components goes up dramatically when you're building out a four mil versus a five mil. Right, because I can run a little bit of brass hidden inside there. I can still get really good foC out of that five, oh right, um, and depending on the head, I'm running a hundred 125 grains and I'm not out as much money. Um, because the aluminum half out systems that even the steel. I mean you hit something hard in a target and a foam target or you, you miss, you hit a rock and you bend.
Zakk Plocica:That I mean you may not even know it and you may not, and that's one of the other things. When we look at spinning the arrows, your half outs typically are not as consistent as like a hit or a recessed insert system. Well, it's just longer, it's more surface. It is, it's more surface and depending on the components and the company that you buy them from, the toler all come into play as well. So easton's obviously got their new match grade system half out, four, four and five mil, which have been seemed to have done really, really well. They've got those o-rings on them.
Zakk Plocica:So when they're recessed into the, the shaft, the actual shank, there's no wiggle room so they are nice and tight, so they do seem to um spin really well sure so and we know cody griffin from easton, he very well speaking with him.
Bryan Gay:He said, dude, check this out. This is, you know, I can't exactly say his voice but five mil aero, 50 grains of brass, with the collar behind it, right, the standard match grade collar, and then keep the same vein configuration you have on the four mil. And I'm running 40 grains lighter and it's still. It's just stout arrow. Yeah, that I mean it's, it's, I'm shooting way faster, way flatter.
Zakk Plocica:Uh, it's just proving to be that much more it forgiving better yes, yeah, no, I um my easton 50 out of my 33, my mock 33 this year it's kind of like 28 inches. I've got 50 grains of brass, a hundred grain head. I'm not running a collar on it, I just have not opted to because I've been shooting a lot of targets and I don't like the tar, the collar, shooting into foam. It's kind of a pain to me.
Zakk Plocica:Um, and I'm at like 400 and as strong as you are, you just pull right through it, man. Well, I don't want to my my targets already get shot a lot and I, you know I want them to salvage them as much as I can. So and then, uh, my overall arrow weight's like 418 grains, which is lighter than what I've run in the past, but it seems to shoot really well, but the foc is greater. So that's kind of what I'm testing this year because you got some people who are foc believers.
Zakk Plocica:I've never really been a big foc guy because I've always run the axis 5 mil, which is just an overall heavier arrow. It's always been around 440 450 grains for me, but this is going to be lighter, more um foc focused. So I don't and I've never had a problem with my axis 5 mil passing through anything and I don't anticipate there being an issue with this foc build higher foc. So, again, like everything else, it's just testing on your own, your own personal testing. Um, I'm curious because they shoot really well. They seem to have been incredibly durable. I'm just curious how they're going to perform this year hunting uh, and I I don't doubt, I don't have any doubts for them absolutely yeah same.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, um, the next thing when we talk about drag is the arrow length. So, obviously, the the longer the arrow, the more drag you get. So a 31 inch shaft has 12% more drag, which is a lot than a 27 inch arrow. So one of the things that he talks about which we've always done is cutting your arrows as short as you can, based off the ability to get them tuned Right. So typically, I like my arrows cut within the riser. Um, and this just comes to prove that there's data behind that. Now, the shorter you can cut your arrow, the less drag you're going to have, the more the better your trajectory is going to be. Um, so those guys who are we've talked about in the past, running unnecessarily long arrows you're not really you're not gaining anything.
Bryan Gay:The only reason you would need to is if you're running a super wide broadhead.
Zakk Plocica:Well, and you still? I mean you're going to cut it to the front of the riser right. You're going to get it. I mean just as far enough, as close as you can rather right as close as you can, Um, but you know, maybe you need to look at um going to a weaker shaft and cutting it down shorter in order to decrease the drag, versus running that stiffer shaft that you need to run longer Right.
Bryan Gay:So you can't overspine these new bows. You're just not going to, I don't. I mean, he said it in one of his podcasts. He goes I mean, it's you're. You're shooting it as straight as possible. The bow is so technically proficient?
Zakk Plocica:I don't know, man. We've tuned some bows and arrow selection matters Really. Yeah, man, we've seen some weird things come out depending on these bows. Like the Matthews bows seem to, um, you can err on the side of a little bit weaker shaft versus, like, some of the other bows. Uh, I'm not saying he's wrong, but we, we tune bows every day here and we have seen, based off the bow that you're shooting, um, some of them prefer maybe a little bit stiffer or a little bit weaker shaft yeah, yeah, I mean with as short as I cut mine.
Bryan Gay:It's even at a 300 spine. I cut them 27 and three quarters so we're very similar. You know um that 300 spine is still super stiff and I'm not having, I haven't had any issues tuning it. Whether it be broadhead and or field point, it's still running. Really, really true, right, no, that makes sense.
Zakk Plocica:I mean you gotta look at it. I mean, and you gotta look at two shooter induced error into the bow when we tune these bows right grip and everything like that matter. But I would say I mean to me it probably makes more sense to be a little bit stiff than we sure, um, but we have seen some bows that perform prefer a little bit weaker shaft well, that's, that's where that comment I think was coming through.
Bryan Gay:I I think you can definitely over. I mean, you're not shooting a piece of steel, right, but I think you know 250, 300 if. If you're pushing that, you know 80 pound draw. If you cut a 300 spine arrow to 27 and three quarters at 80 pounds, I'm gonna be okay, I think, yeah, probably so you know what I mean I agree, I wouldn't go 400 spine, that's. You know. You can definitely underspine your arrow, yeah, and then you start to get a little sketchy.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, to an extent. Yeah, I would agree. So the perfect configuration is, I mean, it can be interpreted a bunch of different ways. I think it's rare that you're going to have a perfect in all categories, right? Sure, zero drag, maximum lift, incredibly quiet, it's not. You're not going to have that perfect. You've got to kind of pick and choose based off the data and what your goal is, the arrow that you select so you can get as close to perfect as you possibly can. But it's, it's not going to be, it's not going to score the best in all those categories, right. But when we do look at one of the veins that performed well in all categories, it was the flex fletch 360. It scored the top in all three categories. So clearly that's a really good vein option for people and I have a feeling the sales and those veins are going to pick up based off this study yeah, absolutely that, and the super sabers the super sabers already know we've already seen an increase in those.
Zakk Plocica:I've already put in some more orders with uh kyle over at dca for those super sabers because I anticipate that being a very sought after uh vein, especially for the mechanical guys. That's where it's really going to shine. So that's it. So key takeaways, man, I mean aero building. There's trade-offs with everything.
Bryan Gay:Right, right, and a lot of it comes down to the person behind the bow, that's exactly what it is. They took all of that out of there and gave you the best data for both right, Both scenarios and said this is the most forgiving, which is the Flex Fletch 360. That's tough to say, Flex Fletch.
Zakk Plocica:I was talking about it with Cody yesterday and I was just mashing this up Flex Fletch yeah.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, that's tough to say, Fletch, yeah, but I mean, if you take, take all things considered, I think that that, like you said, it was in the top what five in every category, which three, top three in every category, which then overall put it number one. I mean that's tough to beat.
Zakk Plocica:It's tough to beat man, but yeah, and again it comes down to I mean, everyone's got a little quirks right when it comes to because when you custom build arrows, you want a specific look right. So color combinations, wraps, configurations, there's those things. They touched on that too wrap.
Bryan Gay:why would you add more weight to the back of your arrow? I've never been a wrap individual. I like it Cause I like custom stuff.
Zakk Plocica:They do, and that's that's where we talk about our quirks. Right, it's you, it's, it's personalized, it's me, it's mine, it looks cool. I'm just I hate taking the time to do it. I know we we key very simplistic and I'll be honest, I don't like building a new bow every year. I do, obviously, because I need to stay up to uh, up to speed on everything that's come out, because this is archery, is my life. I honestly own and run a shop, so I've got to be well-versed in all things that we sell and that's all the brands.
Zakk Plocica:Um, but as far as like setting myself up, personally, if I could, I would just build one bow and just shoot it a lot and become very good with that one bow. Uh, cause that's what I like. I like being proficient with my equipment. That same, when it comes to my stands, my arrow selection, any of the equipment or tools that I utilize, I I'm not someone that typically upgrades constantly. Sure, I know there's some guys that are that like to tinker with it, which is fantastic. We need those guys out there but it's just not me, man.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, I tinker, a ton.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah, I need guys like you, because then you can give feedback.
Bryan Gay:Yeah, tinker a ton. And that's the reason I know that the Max Hunters are so loud. Oh yeah, you know, because I mean I've shot them, I've shot animals with them, yep.
Zakk Plocica:They steer really well, they do.
Bryan Gay:They're just loud Right.
Zakk Plocica:So the best vein and broadhead for you depends on a series of things, right, the number one being your capability. Behind that riser, behind that bow, how comfortable are you under pressure? How accurate of a shooter are you and not just when we talk about a shooter on the range goes back to under pressure, weird angles, weird footing, how much forgiveness do you really need If you know you're someone that's going to shank that shot you're going to? You're going to push that shot? You need to look at building the most accurate setup or, excuse me, forgiving setup as possible, and then from there you got to look at your broadhead choice the terrain and species that you're hunting, the distance that you're planning to hunt and plan to shoot, and the tuning of that bow.
Zakk Plocica:Um, again, those are all things you've got to consider and they I mean they brought light to it. We know these things, but they brought it to light for the public to see. These are all considerations, and important considerations in order to make yourself and set yourself up for the most success or that you possibly can, and I think most people need to err on the side of forgiveness. Jamie Yates said it very well His focus is a forgiving setup, a quiet arrow, a mechanical broadhead. He's done everything he possibly can to make that bow shoot flat and be forgiving.
Bryan Gay:Yes.
Zakk Plocica:I couldn't agree with him more. I mean either man. I mean he absolutely nailed it with this. I think they I can't say it enough They've done a fantastic job. So again, this comes back to this. Brought a lot of stuff to light, man. Don't just trust the marketing claims blindly, or your favorite influencer right. There's data there now. Test, tune, track your own results. That's the great thing about archery. You can do all of those things. You can tinker, you can build your in order to get into arrow building. It's not, does not cost an ungodly amount of money if you're an archery guy.
Bryan Gay:No, no, I mean, you can buy, you know, a jig, a plastic jig, from Amazon for like 30 bucks.
Zakk Plocica:Yeah.
Bryan Gay:And then start, start messing with you know angles and helicals and vein configurations, and think, however you want to do it. I mean, at the end of the day it's, when it comes down to it, it's you in that stand or that tree, whatever, and then that animal in front of you.
Zakk Plocica:That's it, man, I mean. So I think this kind of independent testing is critical and important for the archery community and we need more of it right, outdoor Life did a fantastic job with their bow breakdown and again, this goes back to not just forgiveness within your arrow build, but your bow, the bow itself that you choose to shoot right. So this is PSE has a really great marketing term. That is not just a marketing term, it actually works. They're full draw stability when you look at the outdoor life side of like the shooting, like the Decree and the Mach 33 were the most forgiving platforms and grew the best as far as accuracy goes. So you can look at all these different independent studies that were done and help you make a more well-informed decision.
Zakk Plocica:And I think it goes back to it what do you shoot? Well, that's why it's important when you go to your archery shop, test the bows and you know, based off all of the data, you can kind of find some conclusive data as to I'm not a great shooter. I need a forgiving platform. You know these are, these are within my wheelhouse and my budget. This is probably where my starting point should be and, um, you know, build something that's going to set you up for success. Again, over and over again.
Bryan Gay:That's just such a great conversation to have with your bow tech at your shop. That's right. Right, you go in there, go to your local shop. If you're going into a shop and you're picking up a bow first time new bow, whatever you need to spend, you're planning on spending four to five hours there, right? I mean, I did it with cody three years ago when I set up that hoyt. It was just and and I've been shooting for a while. It was just one of those things that you know let's do the best we can and that's why you know, drug me to here is you guys did right by me and have always, you know so.
Zakk Plocica:It's important to me, man. I mean we're big believers in testing and tinkering. All of our techs here are very well versed in the archery side of things and our tinkers and it's important that we bleed that over into the customer side of things so that our customers, when they come in especially the new guys they're confident with their equipment. They leave with a quality build setup. You know, we put them on the range, we teach them how to shoot the bow, so they're not just coming in buying and leaving. There's an entire process, right, we tune the bow, we set it up, we build their arrows for them, put them on the range, teach them to shoot the bow. They walk away comfortable and confident with their equipment so now they can carry on what they've learned to their house or, if they come back and shoot on a range, they can continue to build off of that. It's important, man, and I think shops should. John Winker said it really, really well when I did a podcast with him the other week. Shops need to invest in more than just the selling side of things and teaching and instructing and coaching the people that come through those doors. So you ultimately set them up to be successful. Got to build that foundation you got to man. Archery is a lot man, a lot of moving parts, a lot of variables. Clearly, there's a ton with this test.
Zakk Plocica:James Yates, the crew at Easton um precision archery all of them did a fantastic job with this. They've really put out a lot of great data. If you haven't checked it out, I need you need to head over to um either James Yates Instagram or uh, you can go to his blog articles that he puts out. It's westernhunternet. Uh, he's got a new YouTube channel. Um, all of the information is there. It's fantastic. He's broke it down. If you've got questions on it, I would encourage you to reach out to him. You can always reach out to us. Um, some of our techs here are pretty qualified in answering that. You know, reading that data and helping assist you in building or setting up that perfect arrow build and bow build that you are after to be successful. Absolutely so that's it, my friend. What else you got, anything?
Bryan Gay:Nothing, nothing. This is. It's a lot to digest.
Zakk Plocica:It really is, you know, and and 95% of it comes down to the person behind the bow. That's it. You are the ultimate. You know. Whether it's going to happen or not falls on you week and as a shop we can only do so much to set you up and make that equipment um proficient and reliable and without you spending the time behind it I've done it enough where I know that if I have a bad shot I don't look at my equipment yeah, I look at look at me, inner, inner monologue.
Bryan Gay:Unless I hear something weird, something crazy like that, my arrow, yeah, then you maybe need to look at the equipment, or. But the other arrows shot, fine. So you know, it wasn't the bow, nope, it was that one arrow. Maybe need to look at the equipment, but the other arrow is shot, fine. So you know, it wasn't the bow, nope, it was that one arrow, we just need to find it.
Zakk Plocica:Yep, I will track it down. So that's it, man. Set yourself up for success. Guys, go to your trusted archery shop, reach out. If you've got questions for us, let us know Again. Shout out to all those arrows, archery, sound lab. Um, james Yates. Dude, those guys crush it, man. I appreciate it. It was great to read all the information on it. Uh, again, head over, check it out. Um, I think it's Yates. In the back countries is YouTube. You can watch his YouTube videos on it. Fantastic stuff, my friends. But, as always, we appreciate you guys Listen, drop some comments, give us some feedback, let us know what you guys think about this study and if it's changed anything for you, whether how you're going to build one, your bow, and two, if it's changed your arrow, vein, broadhead, diameter, shaft, selection of choice, you know, are you changing up?
Zakk Plocica:I mean, it's kind of late. We're getting close to the season. For me, I wouldn't change until next year. But you know, some of you guys drop some comments, give us some feedback, let us know. And then also give us some feedback on topics, guests and any other information you are interested in, so we can continue to move this podcast forward. So that's it, guys. Thanks for listening. Another episode of the archery project. We will see you guys in the next episode.