The Archery Project

Minimalist Saddle Hunting with Former Green Beret Jake Roberts (Wayward Ridge)

• Zakk Plocica • Season 1 • Episode 36

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What if the pack on your back is costing you shots? We bring on Jake Roberts, retired Green Beret and founder of Wayward Ridge, to rethink bowhunting from the ground up: less weight, less noise, more purpose. Jake came to archery at 30 with a clean slate and a Special Forces mindset—focus on what matters, remove what doesn’t, and test until you can’t get it wrong.

We dig into minimalist hunting that still boosts performance: silencing every metal touch point with tape, ditching snaggy stabilizers, and carrying only the pieces that earn their place. Jake explains why he often hunts low rather than high, prioritizing concealment over height for better shot windows and less skylining. He makes a strong case for white light on max during entry—quieter feet, safer public walks, and deer that spook more from scent and sound than visibility. We get hands-on with face paint that actually works in the woods—dark on high points, light in recesses—to flatten shine and hide movement.

On gear, Jake shares how 3D-printed accessories can be stronger, lighter, and more adaptable when you build them right, back them with a lifetime transferable warranty, and prove them with destructive testing. His bow hanger sits close to the tree, packs smaller than a phone, and has passed real pull-up tests. His patent-pending phone mount tracks with your saddle so you can watch wind shifts, map access with OnX, and see how your shot breaks under pressure without fidgeting. We also cover shop-first business ethics: fair dealer margins, a 90-day buyback if products stall, and marketing that educates so customers walk in asking for the right gear.

If you’ve been meaning to trim your kit, quiet your setup, or push closer on the ground, this conversation gives you a blueprint. Subscribe, share with a hunting buddy who carries too much, and leave a review with the one piece of gear you’d remove first.

Check out Wayward Ridge: https://waywardridge.com/

🏹 Shop Extreme Outfitters for all of your archery & bowhunting needs: https://extremeoutfitters.com

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Zakk Plocica:

All right, guys, welcome back to the archery project. I've got Mr. Jake Roberts all the way from, well, Dallas, but from Indiana. Waard Ridge himself in the house. Dude, thanks for coming and making the trip to see us here at Extreme Outfitters.

Jake Roberts:

Man, thanks for the opportunity. It was so nice meeting you last year. I really appreciated the invite to come down and talk on the show.

Zakk Plocica:

Dude, so killer background, like, so you have an awesome company, right? Wayward Ridge is you, I mean, it started with your bow hangers that you made, um, but your background has kind of led to where you are today. So former Green Beret um got out of the the military. It was this year or last year.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, yeah, just in February. I retired.

Zakk Plocica:

Just in February, just retired, already stood up a company, you've got that move in the right direction. But you know, we've been doing a lot of talking, and your mindset is kind of, you know, kind of what I gravitate towards, right? All the guys I know that just really get after it and are there's no slowing down. Yeah, right. So, and you apply that to pretty much all facets of your life, from the home life to the bow hunting side of things to the business. Um, and now that you're directly involved in the archery industry, not just as a consumer, but you know, as a manufacturer, you get to see see and experience everything that this industry has to offer.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah. And uh, one of the things too that I love about my personal experience is I came to archery much later in my life. You know, I was as did I. I was I think I was 30 years old when I came into archery, and that uh has really given me a fresh set of eyes. And I really I keep my blinders on a lot in the industry. Like I really just focus on what I'm doing.

Zakk Plocica:

So that's funny you say that because you know that's kind of the approach that I've taken as well. It's like we get asked a lot, well, did you see what so-and-so did? Are you see what and I'm like, I'm gonna be honest, like I know I haven't because you know we're we're busy doing our thing. Um, and I think it's important. I, you know, my perspective and our team's perspective is you know, we kind of stay on that that path. And um I don't want to compete for the views or, you know, we have our our own ideas and we've got a really good team behind us. Um, but it it's funny you say that because that's kind of how I am. They're like, Did you see the video on this? I'm like, I'm gonna be honest, bro, I didn't.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, that's totally fine. And I I love that mentality too, because keeping a focus on what you're doing and what's in front of you gives you the ability to really niche down and find the perfect solution to things. Because when you have other outside influences, you're thinking, oh, well, I really like that he did this or that he did that. And you know, you end up trying to make something your own instead of just making something that is actually your own. And that is super important when it comes to gear, anything in the archery industry, because as a Green Beret, you you have to be adaptive. And outside of special operations, special forces, I've only found really one group of people who excel at that, and that is saddle hunters, bow hunters, guys who are going into the woods and figuring out how to tackle their problems one at a time, reaching failure and then accelerating through it.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, I I I love it, man. Um it's um it's refreshing to see, man. I mean, guys that like you just willing to kind of push the boundaries um and continue to push and push and push and reach that failure point and then exceed that, not only in the woods, but like on the business side as well.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

I think it's super important. You're not chasing trying to do what everybody else is doing. Because let's be realistic, man, there's a million podcasts out there, um, there's a million people doing the same things we're doing. Um, and it's very easy to get sucked into that trend and not be authentic or be yourself.

Jake Roberts:

Exactly. And authenticity is what what matters the most. Because, like, why would I want to ever hold something that's not my own? It's so much more valuable to me. Like, if I if I bought a knife versus I made a knife, I want the one that I made because it's special to me. That's right. And it doesn't matter if it's the best knife, it's my knife, right? And uh that's kind of my approach to the gear making too. I would rather make one or two amazing pieces of gear than have 50 skews of middle of the road gear.

Zakk Plocica:

That's right. That's what we talked about, right? Narrow and deep. So narrow in what you're doing, but very deep. Yeah. Um, you know, and and constantly improving on it and making it better and just being so well versed in that particular thing or category or whatever it is that you know you're the leader in it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So so let's talk about Wayward Ridge um first, because there's a lot of people who aren't familiar with you, right? So brand new to the industry, yeah, right. You started this thing yourself, um, and you started off making these these bow hangers, right? Yeah, and which we we've discussed it. I take that minimalist approach. I'm a big fan of less is more, only take what you need. Yeah, and your lifestyle has been that, right? You can't carry more than what you need. Yeah, exactly in order, I mean, for survival, yeah, realistically. Uh, and you take that approach with the saddle hunting side of things, and you're creating products that are for the minimalists. So there's no wasted space, no wasted weight, everything has a specific purpose.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, purpose and durability. Yeah, and one of the things, uh kind of how this my mentality goes about is I kind of approach it in uh the same way we'd approach pack out on a team for a mission, right? Uh, no matter where you are, uh, whether you're stateside doing an exercise, you're Iraq going out for uh a convoy operation, you're gonna pack and really think about what you're packing, just like we talked about earlier. Like everything has to have a purpose before you decide to do it. Otherwise, you would never make it through any of these special operations pipelines. Everything you do has to be well rooted in reason. And when it comes to making and packing out gear, that gear needs to have either dual purpose or dual configuration. Otherwise, it's just wasted space if it's not mission critical gear. So, like for a bow hunter, your bow is pretty much the only thing that you have to have to go out into the woods and bow hunt. Everything else is not necessary. That would be an extreme form of minimalism. Whereas, you know, the things that we use like bow hangers to keep our bows out of our hands, saddles, sticks, all that stuff. Obviously, I want to use that stuff too because it does give me some form of advantage, and I want that. Um, so finding the right balance of minimalist is is where I go and I hone in on the products that are essential. And I also have a manufacturing background, um, lean manufacturing, and that's more about removal in the process. And and yeah, it's more directed towards the actual manufacturing line, but when you look at the products that we have and the trend toward adding more features and more BS that you actually don't need, it's quite easy to look at um, you know, a bow hanger and say, what don't I like about this? And remove that, and instead add features that matter and uh do the function uh more precisely than they have been found in other Right.

Zakk Plocica:

So that's one thing I notice in the archery industry, right? Is the accessory side of things, right? There's more and more accessories, right? And then you end up with more and more stuff that you probably didn't necessarily need. And a lot of that can be when we talk about bow added onto the to your bow. So this year, I'll give you a prime example. So I'm shooting the PSE Mach 33. That's what I focus on is my my bow hunting bow this year. I've shot it all year for everything. I went from the Mach 30, which is my backup bow, which I really haven't shot as much. I focused on the 33 and I put a front bar on it. I put a and I put a back bar. I've never run a back bar in my entire life. And I was like, you know what, this bow shoots better. I shot it attack really well. I'm gonna take it in the woods. Guess what came off my bow like two weeks ago? That damn back bar. Because it was getting hung up on everything. And I'm like, realistically, let's be real, I'm hunting out of a stand, out of a saddle. My average shot is within 30, 25, 30 yards. How much more accurate do I do I need to be shooting that far? Do it that I need a back bar? I don't.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

So I stripped that thing off and it was sitting in the bed of my truck because it absolutely drove me insane. So I'm I'm it's fun to experiment and then realize you strip everything back down to the foundation or the the actual bare structure and realize I don't I don't need any additional things.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, you really need less all the time, especially in um I love this comparison. This is what I like to talk to people about when we when we discuss ultralight in the industry versus minimalist, because I mentioned this earlier, but there's a real difference between our industry and other outdoor industries like hiking and camping. When you say ultralight hiking or uh backpacking, you're talking about guys who are carrying less than 10 pounds to go on three-day trips and they don't have a single thing that's wasted. Like they have enough toilet paper for as many poops as they're gonna take in that amount of time, and not uh an ounce more. And they cut down their uh their their toothbrushes, they don't bring any any nice to halves, it's all essential. And these guys are going out for three days, but you're telling me you're gonna go out on your private land for a morning sit and you're carrying 20 pounds. Mm-mm. You don't need that, man. You really just don't.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah. I I think it's funny too, because um I get it, right? We the more comfortable you can be, the longer you can hunt. Right. Right. That's that that's is important. And the stiller you can you can be, right? You need to set yourself up so that you have you are comfortable um and capable, but I think you it's very easy to overdo it, right? I don't need to take a nap in my stand.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

I'm not they here to nap.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah. And I like like we talked about last year, like I don't need to eat in the stand usually either.

Zakk Plocica:

You're you're out there for if anything, 12 hours. That's a I we don't I don't know that we have 12 hours of light at this point. Yeah in the day, right? But like you're out there for, I mean, I think you you you don't need the snacks, you don't need you know that amount uh of water. And I understand some people want to carry it because they do, but I I like to take the approach like similar to you, less is more. Uh and same thing with water, right? I won't take, I don't typically take water if I've if it's just a couple hours sit. But when I do take water, dude, that thing I was telling you about, yeah. So I took this from the endurance runners because I did some long distance running at one point, and they have those bottles that collapse that you can fill with water. And I I think Joe, Joey, do you use those? Yeah, okay. So Joey, Joey does a lot of like the lightweight backpacking stuff. Um, but you fill them and they expand, and then whenever you run out of water, they shrink and you can stow them, they take up no room. It's fantastic. Such a good idea, dude. It's amazing. I'm definitely stealing that, dude. It's it's worth it, man. I mean, and then you have your pockets or wherever your pouch, you don't have anything massive that's just you've got to carry around with you. I that was one of my I felt like big wins for myself.

Jake Roberts:

That honestly, you blew my mind when you said that. I'm buying those on the plane ride home.

Zakk Plocica:

Dude, I got them from uh Solomon because I have a Solomon running vest, and that's where I got them from. And dude, it was fantastic, man.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I'll definitely be doing that. It would bring like probably half a cup of water with me. Yeah, because stay up.

Zakk Plocica:

That well, and that's it. Uh, because we talked about it like before, like I always have to cough, and you always have to sneeze. Um, and that's why I carry water to try to cure that tickle in my throat, or else I'm gonna blow my head up trying to hold this cough. But but you also cover a little bit more distance though, too. Like our public land hunters obviously need a little bit more than the guy that's going out back and hunting, you know, for the hour sit, you know, it's different. You're covering, you're expending more calories.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, so the minimalist approach is definitely, I think, the most important thing when it comes to hunting is how do you have fun hunting? Because at the core of it, if you're not having fun hunting, like no one needs to hunt, no one has to hunt for their family's survival at at this day and age for the most part. But if you are going to hunt, you probably do it because you enjoy it. So however you enjoy it is definitely how you should hunt.

Zakk Plocica:

So take the honey bun, man.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, take the honey bun. If you love it, if you love uh the ho-hos, the ho-hos, whatever, you know, take them with you. It's tradition. Yeah, and and and you know, those things are more might be more meaningful to you than how you hunt. And if if it's fun for you, that's the best way to hunt. And what is fun for me is you know, that ties me back to my SF route. Suffering. I like to suffer. Yeah. I uh if I'm not slightly uncomfortable, I'm not having fun. I'm just bored. So I so what I do, my approach to hunting and gear development, um, where it all starts, is when I'm in the tree. Obviously, now I incorporate what my customers are saying they don't like. That that's obviously a big part of it now. But when this started, I looked at what don't I like? Where where is it being uncomfortable or where is it being annoying to me? Because if I can reduce those things, there is an exactly opposite curve for how much enjoyment I get out of it. So if I can get that down to the things that I don't like are gone, I am enjoying the hunt and focused on that hunt much more clearly. So if my walk-in is miserable because it's so heavy, then I want to lighten my load. But if I need, you know, a two-piece saddle to be comfortable, then I'm gonna wear a slightly heavier saddle. And it's just picking and choosing your battles amongst the uh among the way. It's not just a target weight that you want to be at. It you want to have what you need to have fun out there. And that's that's what I love about the minimalist gear because anyone can come grab a piece of my gear and lighten their load a little bit, or have something that's just more functional than what they've used before, more quieter, um, you know, fits in their pocket, like is smaller. And having that even in one small thing, you know, that might be cutting it down to uh less than you'd like to have, but it makes you more comfortable in some way and you get to enjoy it more. And you so you don't need to be a minimalist hunter to enjoy this gear. You can just take it and add it to your setup and gain something from that somewhere, yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

So that kind of leads me into like you're you tinker with gear, yeah. Like that's your thing, like very gear heavy like experience when it comes to like modifications. So, what are some of the modifications that you do to your stuff that you have seen as like critical or absolutely like there's these is a non-negotiable at this point. I'm always gonna do this.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, so silencing, because we talked earlier, like my biggest thing is noise. I the the only thing besides smell that spooks deer for me is is noise. So anything that makes noise has to go or has to be modified. So every touch point on a piece of metal, because my platform's metal, my sticks are metal, um just that exact point is wrapped up in tape really well.

Zakk Plocica:

So you tape, you use just regular tape, like duct tape?

Jake Roberts:

I I use uh hockey tape with like BDU camo.

Zakk Plocica:

And you tape your platform if if it's a touch point.

Jake Roberts:

So if it like right where the right where my platform collapses and it would normally ting in the woods as I'm um getting down from the tree, that's taped up on both sides and it's just dead noise when it comes together.

Zakk Plocica:

What about like your sticks?

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, so where the sticks come apart. Um, this is back when I was hunting with multiple sticks, now I just use one, but not one sticking. Right. Um when I would pull them apart, I would just get this slight ting out of them. And uh it was only happening the way I took them apart, was I made that the same every time. So it was only happening on one side. So you see my sticks, and it just has two wraps of tape right where it would make that contact on the left side of the sticks, because that's where it happened every time. And I could I could make it uh dull by adding that tape. And that's that's the most essential piece. Like if you have something that makes a noise, bring tape with you and just fix it in the field. Because when you're done with an all-day sit or you know, sitting in the woods and you didn't see anything and you're kind of defeated, you don't want to go home and modify your gear. Right. But if you do it while you're in the tree, yeah, you might move a little, but it'll get taken care of right now. And I I I personally will do that.

Zakk Plocica:

That's a good approach.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, it's it because I always I used to forget, you know, you know, so that I'm medically retired, so head injuries, I'm a little forgetful nowadays. And uh I I used to forget, so now I have to take care of it right now. So that is one of the pieces of gear that I certainly don't need to bring into the woods, but I do because it it aids my process, you know, for hunting.

Zakk Plocica:

Right, until you get everything dialed in exactly like it. So you're not somebody that chases new gear then. You're looking at constantly making what you're using more efficient, unless it it makes sense to upgrade that.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, so unless it takes a drastic step forward in weight or functionality, I'm I'm not changing my gear. Like I could I could upgrade to uh like a hyperlight platform. Like those are super sweet. My platform right now is like four and a half pounds. So a hyperlight platform would actually be a pretty good upgrade in terms of weight if I'm trying to be uh a true minimal uh an ultralight guy uh in the gear. Uh that might be an expense that is worth it to me. But um, you know, for a new saddle hunter, obviously that expense probably doesn't make any kind of sense. Um but yeah, always tinkering and those those big leaps. Um, you know, someone may come like for me the bow hanger was a big leap because it just it's more functional. Like to to have something that fits in your pocket and not like oh it fits in your pocket and it's a cargo pocket, but like fits next to your cell phone in your pocket. Oh dude, it's tiny. Yeah, it's so it's smaller than an iPhone. And um that that is a huge leap forward to me. You know, that to me is to me now that's the standard, and I'll I'll modify that and make it better for myself. And anyone should do the same for themselves. And that's what I that's my approach to it, is it doesn't matter how good the gear is. Right. If I pay $400 for these sticks, I'm gonna modify the sticks because they're not perfect as is for me or for you. You know, they they're going to have like I may take them off with my right hand holding them in my left, and you may do the opposite, and they may have different touch points that make noise or things that annoy us. So we all need to modify our gear a little bit.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, I think that makes sense because what a lot of people, what I see a lot of people do is they they buy gear thinking that it's the end all be all or it's the final solution. And that's just not the case, especially for a bow hunter, right? Because like you're talking about, everything matters as a bow hunter from the way you access the woods, the winds, your scent, noise. There's always gonna be a weak point, I think, in any of your gear in some capacity, because you just can't make it perfect for everybody. Yeah, you can get close, but there's gonna be things that need to be done, whether it's taping zippers, zipper pulls, yeah, um, wrapping your sticks, like you're talking about, the way you pack, unpack. And I think it's important for people to, whenever they buy gear, they they they see it as that. That they need to take and evolve this thing and make it work and fit them.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, and it even goes for your soft goods, like your bags and stuff. Like I'm still working through that. I know. I I I struggle with it. And one thing that I really struggle with is like really cutting up my bag, like the straps, like I want to cut them so bad. I usually just uh because I'm gonna resell them at some point, right? Right. So I usually just tape them up, but it comes undone and it pisses me off so much. I've got no harness. Yeah, yeah, I know. Little teaser here. Uh, I'm venturing into soft goods for next season, and we're actually prototyping right now uh a better way of using uh your binary harness. I'm I'm looking forward, I'll have to share that with you off the phone. Oh, dude, I'm looking forward to that. We'll we'll we'll talk about it.

Zakk Plocica:

So that's a competitive market because there's some killer binor harnesses out there, um, some really good systems. And I almost go back and forth like I love my system I've got now, but I also hate having something on my chest at the same time because like I'll give you a prime example. I carry my phone in my binocularness, right? Where my binos go in. But the problem is I'll go and I'll need to get my binos harness, and my phone is still there, and then I can't get it back in without moving and fidgeting and stuff. So there's like these, I mean, they're they're not big problems, but they're they're little issues that just drive me insane.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, things add up. They do, and it takes away from the hunt, right? It does distractions. Yeah, and I I actually I come down to my knees a lot against the tree in the saddle, and so I I hate having a bino harness on.

Zakk Plocica:

I was gonna say, do you so when you run your tether for how high do you run your tether?

Jake Roberts:

Uh I keep it about I keep it usually at eye level or slightly.

Zakk Plocica:

So you run it a little bit high.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I run it high, but I'm also a pretty tall guy.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, so does your bridge impact your harness, your kind of harness?

Jake Roberts:

It it it does only when I try and lean forward and try and take a little weight off my lower back as an army guy. Like obviously my back does not do great. And I'll try and I'll try and unweight my back a little bit, and then it gets a little tied up in there and I'll make some noise shifting around. So if if you're like feel good standing all day and like you're really comfortable with your saddle setup and you don't lean forward, bino harness is great. Yes. But I think there's a better way to do it. I do. I like it.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, yeah. I I that's that's been one of my bigger pain points, is that uh is the bino harness because I love it because I love having binos at easy to access, and I like the pouches for like because I run my rangefinder pouch on my right side, and then I run like a little wind indicator on it, and it's great. Um, but also sometimes it can be a little bit frustrating with specific things, but obviously there's give and take to everything. Yeah, absolutely. So so let me ask you this. So you run one stick now, yeah, you run an eight or on it. How do you wear your saddle, your platform, and your stick in? How does that pack? What does that look like for you?

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, so uh you know, Trophy Line has their plateau pack. Are you familiar with it? Yep. That's the smallest pack I could find.

Zakk Plocica:

So you run a pack with it, yeah. Dude, every that's been a so I have a handful of buddies that absolutely love that.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

So that's so that's the same thing you run.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, the plateau pack, I like it because my platform just sits against my back, and I literally just reach back and I hold it and I unclip it on one hand and I unclip it on the other side, and I just pull it over the top.

Zakk Plocica:

So it's almost like a little H harness, isn't it?

Jake Roberts:

Uh yeah, you so you can um yeah, it is. It's like a turkey pack where it sits in the the the small of your back.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, we sell them. I should know this. Yeah.

Jake Roberts:

But they're great because they're they're the lightest pack I could find. Okay. So I made that work for me. It still does not work. There's way too much space in this bag. And I think too much space in a bag encourages me to bring stuff that I don't need, and I hate that. I want to like when when I was on the team, right, my aid bag, there is no way that I was fitting more in this thing. It was as small as can humanly be. Like if you're gonna go into a house and this thing is gonna be on your back, you're gonna have to drop it to to make space for your kit, yourself, your gun, all that stuff. So and and then you need to be able to respond once uh once everything's over and go grab that bag and treat someone. But that bag carried only the exact essential things that I would need to get them stabilized and moved. Um anything else was wasted space. But you know, you'd come across uh medics in the regular army who are packing things out that were like for long-term care and they didn't understand like, no, this is a this is a very specific scenario. I want to use it like this, and I'm only using it for this amount of time. And that is kind of my approach to the gear side of things and my packing. Like a lot, like I said, like 20 uh you know, 10 pounds for a three-day hike versus 20 to 25 pounds for a morning sit.

Zakk Plocica:

Right.

Jake Roberts:

That's just it doesn't it doesn't jive.

Zakk Plocica:

Right, no, yeah. I'm with you on that because it is very easy. Like I I hate, I honestly don't like carrying a pack. I typically carry a pack whenever it gets cold so that I can put my layers and my jacket in there, and that's the main purpose of it. Yeah. Um but my pack is also kind of noisy. It's a great little pack, it's a great little like day, like not even, it's like a what's it, like a half day pack. Maybe by wrist mystery ranch. I can't remember what it is, but it's loud. The material is loud, it's the biggest issue with it. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so you wear, so does your stick go underneath the plateau pack?

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, it does. So I have to take it off to get that off at the base of the tree, and that's that's too much noise for me. That's one thing I really don't like about it.

Zakk Plocica:

So, I mean, so what's your solution to that? Because and what do you carry in normally in the bag itself? I mean, because I find myself like I've got a just a pouch on my right side that barely has I carry chem lights in it for like blood trailing at night because it's way easier for me to see that. No kidding. Yeah. Oh, okay. So I mean, because That's a good idea. Well, I'll tell you why. You get the mini ones? Oh, I didn't know that.

Jake Roberts:

That's a really mini too. That's way better.

Zakk Plocica:

I've got boxes that I had my buddy, yeah. Um, he's a he's a ranger or wasn't it? Yeah, he got me a bunch, man. He's like, here you go. Uh I was like, it's fantastic. Because I had a problem, like, so this goes back to headlamps. All right. So I'll I'll tell this story. So I had a headlamp, it was a rechargeable headlamp, the damn thing died on me. And I I shot a good buck and I was trying to find this deer. Yeah. So I'm out there with a cell phone with a light, trying to blood trail this thing. Yeah, absolute nightmare. And what would happen is I would get turned around because one, I didn't have good light, and I would go back to my starting point and I would I would use either toilet paper or I would use my arrow and mark my last spot I had blood, but I couldn't see it in the dark. Yeah, that's so I would take a chem light and drop chem light where I would see blood every so far so that it's easy for me to go back and backtrack, right?

Jake Roberts:

I didn't think of that. That's a genius idea.

Zakk Plocica:

Well, it works, actually works. Yeah. I thought I think it works really good. It might be dumb to some people, but it made it easier for me to visually identify where my last blood was so that whenever I was continuing to move forward in the dark, I could see the trail or the direction that I was going, so it made sense to me. That's why I did it. Uh, and it works, it worked good so far. But the little Kim lights are great idea as well.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, because they're like the same um circumference as uh like a glow-in-the-dark necklace that kids would wear, and but they're only like two inches long. So they take up no space. Perfect, yeah. And you could carry 50 of them and a little rubber band around them. Yeah, like bread crust. Yeah, exactly. Like Skittles and it's perfect.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, no, that no, that's interesting because everyone every like blood trailing, everyone says to carry toilet paper, but I'm like, I can't see that at night.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah. See, this is why I love other guys with extreme mindsets because they put they do stuff because they plan and and and and focus on inside of a vacuum, they have the blinders on and they're just focusing on what works for them. And then when you end up getting together and talking about it, you really see something that I was like, oh wow, that's a terrific idea. I can't absolutely incorporate that immediately.

Zakk Plocica:

And I do go and pick them up afterwards, just so you know I don't leave them. We don't leave them in the woods. I don't which is the great thing about toilet paper, right? Because it it does, it breaks down, it goes away. So, like when if you drop three to five chem lights, they're easy dynamic five. So when you're working your way back out, you can go back and grab them up in your pack and take them out. So I don't leave them in the woods, everybody. Yeah, not polluting the woods.

Jake Roberts:

It's a good call, good conservation. That's it, man.

Zakk Plocica:

I figured I would just put that out there because somebody would be like, Oh, you're leaving those in the woods. Nah, I'm not, man. I promise. But um, you know, that goes back to what we were talking about, like minimalist approach and stuff. Um, but looking at some different ways of approaching things. But so in your pack, so that's that is a lot of space. I mean, it's not a lot of space, but it's a lot of space in the way that we think about things. What uh what else do you carry in it?

Jake Roberts:

I carry a limb saw. Oh, a small limb saw. I need to get one of those. Well, I I do public, so I very often I definitely don't cut trees on public land. But you know, um I actually use that limb saw to uh cut the pelvis of deer when I'm when I'm dressing them because you can actually use a limb saw for that. So it's just cut right through it. Yeah, something that that you can do that most people don't actually know about. It cuts right through that bone, no problem. And then um I'll carry a set of hand warmers, just one, and then uh my grunt if I'm just walking in, but usually like I told you, like I usually keep that thing around my neck uh when I'm walking out, I'll throw it in the bag. And then I keep some emergency 550 cordage.

Zakk Plocica:

Dude, so to the 550 cord thing, like that is one thing that I feel like I use more than anything. Yeah, is because instead of cutting branches out of the way, you can pull like you can rig it up and pull things and build cover exactly versus cutting them and then you're just exposed. Because that's what I did in Kentucky, is I would wrap it around and I would pull this branch and it kind of created a little bit more cover for me without cutting it down. Yeah. Um, it just worked well for that way, and then I didn't have to cut anything either.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, it's smart too. You could take uh like a fishing weight and put it on the end of that and just kind of whip it over and grab a branch that's a little farther further out of reach, too.

Zakk Plocica:

That's really smart. I was not I was leaning, you know, risking my life trying to get around this tree to tie it off and whatnot.

Jake Roberts:

Thank goodness for tethers.

Zakk Plocica:

That's dude, you ain't lying, man. You ain't lying. So you keep that in there. What else?

Jake Roberts:

Really? That's it.

Zakk Plocica:

So there's a so it's a lot of empty space. Way too much space.

Jake Roberts:

And oh, an extra uh like a rechargeable battery pack.

Zakk Plocica:

Okay.

Jake Roberts:

That's the only other thing. Just because I I still use the GPS, like I'm not using hard maps or anything. I'm using my GPS.

Zakk Plocica:

So what GPS do you use?

Jake Roberts:

I just use Onex.

Zakk Plocica:

Okay, use Onate. Okay, that's what I use as well.

Jake Roberts:

And plus, it gives you that like directional feature like we were talking about for guys to navigate into their stand a little easier.

Zakk Plocica:

I don't know if mine needs to be updated, but my directional thing has been off lately.

Jake Roberts:

Uh, do you try doing like a figure eight on Your phone because sometimes that compass gets out of whack. Or you could have a really big um declination down here just because of the uh uh whatever mag uh magnetic signals are going on around here. Interesting, yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

Okay, that makes sense.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, it could it can throw you off sometimes on your reading. I'm not sure how that translates into GPS positioning. Now that I'm thinking about it, it probably doesn't actually at all. It would have compass, but it wouldn't your GPS or nothing. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, because it's global positioning, so that shouldn't actually happen.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, maybe I just need to uh decalibrate my phone or something. Because I noticed it with my compass on my phone too, it was off. I was like, dude, that's not close to north. Yeah.

Jake Roberts:

Like where are we going? Oh yeah, yeah, it's probably your phone though.

Zakk Plocica:

I'm lost. Yeah, so you don't carry you don't carry any clippers. No. Oh, dude, I carry clippers. I use clippers, I'll cut down a damn tree with clippers. I like to cut them where just in half and break them where they hang.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, yeah. That way you still have more concealment. That's that's what I do, is I I grab it and I twist it back on itself. That makes sense. It usually doesn't snap if it's a fresh tree, and then I just let it hang that loose and it kind of like hangs at a 45. Yeah. And I still have my open shot lens, but I'm covered.

Zakk Plocica:

So um, what about headlamps?

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I keep two.

Zakk Plocica:

Okay, so you keep two headlamps.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I'm two on that one.

Zakk Plocica:

Okay, that's smart because so I went uh talking about it how my headlamp died, I went away from a rechargeable, right? The rechargeable was awesome until it wasn't, and there's no way you can just recharge it in a matter of minutes where you're at. So I went back to a battery-powered, I like battery stuff because I always carry extra batteries in my bioharness. Um, but I carry one, I carry a little petzel that's got all three, you know, three different colors, and then um nice white light uh that has three different brightnesses. Um, but you know, something we were talking about, which is interesting, you're you're one of the other individuals um that I've talked to about it, is you use white light over red. Yeah. Which blew my mind. Like all the dudes I talk to that are like actually like hard pretty, I would say hardcore hunters, like really get after it, public land, kill good deer, um, are have kind of gravitated towards white light.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, and and you know, I think I think it becomes such an inflated argument on social media because everyone thinks that the way that they hunt is the best way to hunt, or you know, they're trying to do things in the way that's most logical to them and what makes sense. So it becomes very personal very quickly. So they get very fired up about this. Extremely. But the reality is is the deer, the only color on our spectrum that they see is blue. So don't wear blue jeans, don't use blue light. Other than that, because that would be abnormal to them. But with the white light, I find that if I were making more noise with any other light, like red or green, then that would kind of it the it goes in this order for me smell, noise, and visibility. Those are the things that will spook deer in that order. So just because I'm walking, deer don't spook. But if they smell me, they're definitely spooking. And if they hear me um because I'm making too much noise, they're definitely spooking. So when I go and have a white light, but I'm walking quieter, I find I get in really close to deer because I hunt bedding areas on public most of the time.

Zakk Plocica:

So aggressive.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I'm super aggressive with my with that. And then, you know, like I said, my favorite setup is uh a drainage, but that's near bedding too.

Zakk Plocica:

Yep. Yep, dude. So it's it's that's funny because like I've always been the guy like I'm going in, no light. Yeah. Like I'm going in in the dark, no one's, and then yeah, I'm louder, obviously. Like, because when you're trying, even if you have like, let's say, decent like uh loom, like you still can't, your depth is way off. Your depth perception is way off. And then you get up to like a briar thicket that you know, you move three feet to the right. If you had white light, you could have walked right around it. But I'm over here trying to like cut through this thing because I can't see. And then I've gone to red light, and it's the same thing. You can see three feet in front of you, but your your depth perception is still off. So I talked to a handful of other individuals and they're like, no, dude, I run white light. And I asked you, I'm like, dude, do you run it on like the lowest setting? You're like, nope. Max setting, max setting. So you're quieter, you're more efficient getting into where you need to be. And I always figured, like, oh man, you're gonna deter the deer, but you had an experience with a doe.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, it's my personal experiences that have led me to this conclusion. And it's just that I I had a doe when I was walking in last year, and I I was walking in, she stood up 20 feet from me. She uh she had I she was upwind to me, so I was downwind, and she couldn't smell me. She could see the light. Obviously, my white light was right in her eyes, and I turned my head directly to her to keep it in her eyes because I knew she couldn't really see my silhouette. I pulled up my grunt tube, let out a soft little uh young buck grunt, and then I started walking more on the downwind side. I went, I skirted around her, stayed 20 feet the whole time. She let me get into the spot which was only 50 yards away from where I was headed, because like I said, I hunt in the bedding areas, and I hung up in that spot and she hung around me all day, and it was no problem. So, and I had it on the max setting, and that it that's not the only experience I've had. I've gotten in next to deer or gone around deer, and I just have found that as long as they aren't smelling me and hearing me, they do not hard spook. I um I'll get a soft spook, right? Don't trot off, but they won't blow at me.

Zakk Plocica:

And they seem to always come back, like it's like they're more curious than anything.

Jake Roberts:

I I've I even bumped and dumped a buck on opening day two or two or three years ago, same way. Oh, that's such a good feeling.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, that's like that's yeah, that's the best. So so what so whenever do you turn like as soon as you get in the wood, you turn that thing on?

Jake Roberts:

Oh, yeah. Uh and that's bec and one of those things too is I just have a healthy distrust of other hunters and safety. Good point. And public land, like I I'm not even gonna play any, play any games. That's how I started using white light. But now through my experiences, I'm really finding that it doesn't matter anyway.

Zakk Plocica:

That that that's a really good point. Safety issues. Yeah, especially on public, man, you just never know uh who's out there. Uh, and there's some people that are willing to uh risk it all for what they think potentially could be a a good animal.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, one of the one of the guys on my team shared the funniest story I think I've ever heard about a hunter. He said uh they were in high school, and this guy comes up to him and says, Man, I got a big buck this morning. He's like, Oh yeah, you got a picture. It's like, no. He came in, it was dark, it was like a half hour before first light. So he's like, You mean like gray light? He's like, No, it was like dark, dark. And I I, you know, I pulled up my gun and I just started firing. I definitely hit him, but I didn't see any blood trail or anything. I was like, I'm never not using white light again.

Zakk Plocica:

Oh, yeah, that's an instant game catcher. That's good to dude, that's terrifying.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, it's no, it's horrifying. And I I, you know, I have a family I want to go home to, so it's it dying over something stupid like that would be Yeah, well, which is is crazy.

Zakk Plocica:

I don't know what it's like in Indiana, but here in North Carolina, like, dude, it's flat here, right? There's no like real terrain. You can shoot whatever rifle round you want, 30 aughts, six rounds. I mean, big rounds that are ripping through the woods. And uh, every year you hurt hear about it though, there's a horror story where somebody gets shot or somebody gets hurt, or yeah, I guess air on the side of caution, run a white light.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, it's and and to don't don't fret over while running that white light because the deer really just don't care. And if one if one deer happens to be have a terrible experience with white light because someone was poaching them. Right, and you know, and they're and and they're running away at white light, then don't worry about it. Yeah, there's more deer in the woods.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, that's true. That is very true. So um why saddle hunting, right? So you say you got a little bit of some back issues. I mean, obviously your career prior to this was very um tumultuous. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Um, so obviously you're a little beat up, I'm assuming, in in areas, right? Lower back, some issues, um TBIs, yeah, uh and all that. So, what drew you to saddle hunting over, like just hanging a platform and sitting?

Jake Roberts:

So, my first first year I did a uh a climber, okay, and it was uh, you know, a nice 25-pound one, which is a nice one area you it was, and um that worked for me, but I just didn't have the options that I wanted to. And one of the things that on the team was very important was having I need to kind of go over some history of or how SF works. Basically, this is an elevator pitch, mind you. You get an area of operations, you get given a mission, and then you plan and do everything in a vacuum. So you make these choices and you have to be able to provide the reasons for them. You plan the mission, you decide everything. And so God, I really lost track of the question. I apologize.

Zakk Plocica:

So why saddle hunting over um there's the TVI?

Jake Roberts:

Okay, so when when I have options available to me, I can do that planning better, especially when it comes to hunting. So if every tree's an option, that's a huge advantage over anyone who's not saddle hunting. I would rather be uncomfortable and have more options. And it's not that saddle hunting is uncomfortable, it's a little uncomfortable for me in my back, but at the same time, I allow myself myself some of those comforts to do hunting the way that I enjoy it. And saddle hunting is so versatile because when you do when you pick up saddle hunting, every single thing in your pack or that you carry with you to saddle hunt is customizable. You can adapt that, you can cut pieces off, you can add pieces to it, and that's the fun part of it for me. That's the community that I want to give my all to, and I want to provide products for because these guys are really trying to make it happen. They're really going deep. And those are the types of folks that I want to work with too.

Zakk Plocica:

So and and you, I mean, your approach is um a little different as well. I mean, which I I think it more and more people are are taking this approach, but you use one stick, so you hunt low, and you're a bigger guy, anyways.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I'm six two. Yeah, so I mean that's a yeah, it's it's you know, I'm I'm pretty tall, so I can get up like seven, eight feet in a tree.

Zakk Plocica:

Which is very low for what most people consider hunting height, right?

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, but it I find that when I'm 20 feet up with four sticks or 25 feet and I'm really stretching it out, I I in the late season I don't even have enough cover up top to prevent myself from having a silhouette. So I I find that, and then by then the deer looking up anyway. In the early season, there's too much vegetation up high. So it the advantage of getting your scent over that isn't exactly more than getting good shot angles and having better concealment. I would rather have more concealment than anything because if I can I I'm a I'm a I'm a fidgety guy, so I like to move a little bit in my saddle. And if if I'm not, if I don't have good concealment, I'm gonna get picked off by these deer really quick.

Zakk Plocica:

So this so here's one of my problems, right? When it comes to tree selection, I I either go about it one of two ways. I pick a tree that is very easy, it's easy, but it doesn't provide the best cover concealment, or I go the complete opposite. It's the most difficult tree in the world to get in, yeah, but it's got really great cover and concealment. So would you sacrifice like when it comes to tree selection? Are you are you are you more looking for cover and concealment over like a tree that's easy to get into, even if it makes the shot you less shop opportunities?

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I would way rather have concealment. Yeah. Uh uh and and it all can be um now here's some more anecdotal evidence. I went out one day on Fort Campbell and I got about 20 feet up in this tree. Some does come out of the bedding area, silhouette me instantly, blow, run off down the ridge. I I pack up, move out, and I go and find this is where it really clicked with me. I move to this other bedding area that was about 100 yards away, and uh between these two bedding areas is just a clearing with a bunch of oaks. It's just a great spot. And I get up in here and I get uh about 12 feet up in the tree, but there are branches from other trees just concealing me perfectly. Those does came back, other deer come back, and I ended up seeing something like 20 deer that day, even after I ruined my morning sip by being silhouetted. So I went and changed and saw the concealment work for me for the first time. Like that hands-on experience is invaluable as a hunter. Yeah, because you know, you can listen to as many podcasts or YouTube videos as you want, but until you try something and it works or doesn't work, you really don't know.

Zakk Plocica:

Right, you got a hypothesis, yeah.

Jake Roberts:

Exactly. It's it's actually a scientific approach, and that's that's exactly how I approach the gear making too. It's like uh like those bow hangers. I've I've broken over a hundred of them. I broke 112 exactly, and then I broke five more before I came down here because I was gonna bring those ones that I forgot for you to break, and I just wanted to see like where is that breaking point, like what's breaking first. But you need to do those things with your gear as as a as a make as a manufacturer, excuse me. You don't do that at home. Yeah, that's gonna be very expensive. Um, as a manufacturer, you have to do those things and like PSE, they do that 100,000 cycles test, right?

Zakk Plocica:

Oh, yeah. So yeah, so some of the bow brands do some extensive stuff like PSE's cycle test and then Hoyt's dry fire cycle test, like manufacturers, they put them through the ringers, man. So yeah, and that's a really good point because people aren't just, you know, these manufacturers aren't just putting out a subpar product. And that's like you.

Jake Roberts:

I mean, you go through the the testing and yeah, it's it's it's exhaustive, and I have so much data on it. And like I even go through drop testing to see which, you know how we talked about how you can have different internal configurations, and that's why 3D printing is like one of the best, it's probably the best and will not be matched in terms of accessory gear.

Zakk Plocica:

Which is crazy, which it it really makes sense though, yeah. When you step back and think about it, yeah. Especially as as durable as you say you're able to make these things.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

And it's based off the the process, though.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, exactly. And and the proof is in the pudding, like being able to do pull-ups off of two of these things is like it kind of speaks for.

Zakk Plocica:

How much do you weigh?

Jake Roberts:

Uh I weigh 205.

Zakk Plocica:

200 pounds. Yeah. And I mean, these things are little. I mean, they're just enough to hold your bow. Yeah. And you got them between two put two trees and you've done like three to five pull-ups on them and no issues whatsoever. So it's a durable product.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, and it doesn't break, doesn't bend, and no malformation in it after the fact.

Zakk Plocica:

Not to mention your warranty.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, the lifetime warranty too. So if it did break, who cares? I'll send you a new one. That's correct. And it's transferable too. So like I don't care if you got it from your sister. Like, I'm gonna replace it if it breaks. Ridiculous. And and that, and that, you know, when it comes to 3D printing, I I wanted to do that because I know guys have had bad experiences with 3D printed products, and it's really turned them off. And I'm I'm so blessed. I've had so many people reach out to me and say, Man, you you know, your gear intrigued me, and the durability test that you showed made me give it another shot. And I'm so glad I did because I had a bad experience with 3D printing and the cheap gear. And the the point of breaking a few more and having you break it, which isn't happening, I apologize for that. Um, was just to show that I can make the same exact thing, but me as a manufacturer, I can change the way I do it, and it creates a subpar product. So when you're looking for at 3D printed products, find someone with a lifetime warranty because that speaks to them being willing to stand behind their gear. Right. And in the industry, that is hard to find. Oh, extremely but uh but you know, there are a lot of great companies out there who do stand behind their products and and do try to make them last. Like I don't want someone buying a new bow hanger from me every two years. Every season. Yeah, uh it needs to be one.

Zakk Plocica:

Right.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, and it and they'll buy a new one when I make a better one.

unknown:

Right.

Zakk Plocica:

No, that's a good approach, man. I think it just shows the integrity and uh just how well and how how methodical you are with the products and stuff and how important it is to you. I mean, that it carries over to the consumer side because you see a lot of products nowadays that come out that are cheap, quick fixes, yeah, and yes, they only serve a a purpose.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, and it's it and you know the or a long-term purpose, I should say. The manufacturers are fighting multiple factors, right? You need affordability, you need um you know, you talk about different manufacturing methods. We talked about injection molding, like could I injection mold them? Yeah, but I can make them lighter if I don't, and I can make them just as strong, if not stronger, if I don't. And would that allow me to sell more? Yeah, but at the same time, my goal isn't to sell more, exactly. It's it's to uh upgrade people's gear so that they have what they need to get the job done. And if it breaks, they don't need to worry about that. I'll have a new one to you immediately.

Zakk Plocica:

So the thing I do like about the product too, like um, is how well thought it because it's very low profile too. So like it it fits like you're you know, a lot of your hangers, they really stick out and they've got all these different arms and they can stick out way far. There's some smaller ones, they're metal, they're a little bit noisier, a little bit heavier, but yours is super low profile, and the bow or whatever you're hanging is right up against a tree. So there's it works really, really well. Uh and I again I just like the low profile uh design and just how easy it is to access it without any additional movement outside of the body.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I like that too. I know, I know you like to stay like in this right here box. That's why you like to have your binos right here and all your gear really close to the tree. Yep. Yeah, when I was looking at that piece of um, because I you know, I just I hyperfixate um probably to an autistic level, uh, where I really it has to be a certain way in my mind and I have to make it work. And if it doesn't work, I had to figure out a new way to make it work. So um when I was looking at how big and long to make it, right? Because you have these really long bow hangers that are great for putting both your limbs on. And and you know, if that's how you like to hang your bow, great. I personally don't hang mine on the cam. I d uh um, you know, unless the what I'm hanging it on requires me to do that. So I like a limb. So when I went to develop the size of this, I took the widest limb on a dual limb bow, and that was my sizing. I added uh about a centimeter to that to make sure it would fit any bow. And at the time it was a prime that had like the widest limb in the bow shop, and that that's where uh the actual length of the bow hanger comes from. Got it, that makes sense. It's in the thought of the reason. Yeah, like everything has a reason. Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

That's cool. That's a good approach, man. I mean, like it's obviously everything you do, there's no excess in anything. Yeah, and uh, I mean, you spend majority of your time public land hunting, so obviously you want to shed as much weight as you can. Um I like it, man.

Jake Roberts:

And a lot of that comes from rethinking how what what we actually need to hunt. So, like dropping the three sticks made my pack my my pack three pounds lighter, and I I still get on deer just as much as I did with four sticks. Yeah, yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, uh it's very easy to be consumed. I mean, we're can consume consumers, right? We want to consume and consume more and more and more. It's gonna make everything better, and it's not necessarily the case. I think most people or most bow hunters learn that the hard way. Everybody starts there, right? Yeah, everybody chases that gear. Yeah, but the guys that I see that are are really successful, they're not chasing the new gear. They're they're uh improving upon what they've got, right? And just like you, it's trial and error, and the only way to really learn is to do it yourself. But I mean, going from three, six to one, you know, creating your own bow hanger, starting a company. Um it's cool, man. I mean, it's as far as the archery industry goes, though, I mean, what is have you had any um like what's been your biggest pain point?

Jake Roberts:

Not enough negative feedback.

Zakk Plocica:

Really?

Jake Roberts:

Yep. So I um and this sounds like I'm patting myself on the back, and it's really not this is actually a very big frustration um for me, is all all the guys that I have test my prototypes are veterans, uh usually SF guys, but um I I exclusively send my prototypes to other veterans because I need their honesty. I need them to be harsh with me and not be my friend about it, and they're really good at that. And by taking that and um doing it before I even bring the product to market, that um kind of starts the ball way further forward than if I just went to market because I thought I had a good idea. Right. So I I've really only had one person reach out and say, um, this needs to be fixed or this isn't working. And I found that it was actually my fault. I was not educating my customers in how to properly use the uh the attachment device with my bow hanger. And I made a video about it because I I want to own that. I want to own the bad parts and make them better. But it's just frustrating because I want it to be better. I want it to be it's good, it's really good, but I know it can be better, but I need more eyes, I need more people to tell me what doesn't work in a professional way, like in a critical way.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, no, that's that's uh I will say in a professional critical way is very difficult when it comes to the social side of things. Yeah.

Jake Roberts:

Uh because usually it's just like that's a basic crap. Yeah. Thanks.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, you should probably end your like it's crazy. Yeah. I'm like, oh, all right, enough comments for one day. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for your constructive criticism, friend. Out here just trying to do something. And yeah, no, that's funny, man. But as far as building the brand though, I mean, has it been um is it something you enjoy doing? Like, is it has it been a struggle trying to I mean, because you're very resourceful, you're very, I would say pretty well connected. Maybe um just based off your background, you're good with at connecting with people and you've done a really good job right out of the gate from because I mean you came to our shop before you had yeah really even done anything.

Jake Roberts:

In business one month.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, and uh have made some good connections and it seems like you got started off right with a really good shop that you were in. Um but as far as like building a brand in the the hunting industry, has it been um is it been a struggle? Has it been fun for you? I mean, what's the it's it's been fun, yeah.

Jake Roberts:

Um the struggle is the fun part though. Right. I I'm I'm a big like you know, killing big deer is great, but how I kill that big deer is way more important to me. Like if if I'm not having fun on the path to, it's not worth it. Right. And I my my brain just craves dynamic problem solving. Like I need a lot um for for me to feel fulfilled in in my work. And this is the most fulfilling work I've ever done, uh, more so than even being on the team uh in terms of making gear, because there's so many facets of this and building this brand that has been challenging and I've had to overcome. Because you know, we were just talking about how as entrepreneurs we just have to acquire new skills on side quests and and just be extremely well versed in things that we never thought that we would. And um, you know, the actual business side of things, logistics, marketing, product development, all of that, uh having to master each of those one step at a time as a solo person. It's just my wife and I'm doing this brand right now. And um, and then as it grows, delegating those tasks and making sure that they cannot fail at those tasks because a lot of people stop when they get it right. And in SF and my personal life, I stop when I can't get it wrong. So that's that's the that's one of the things that I really value going into building this brand. It's been fun because I like overcoming those challenges. I like having a problem that stops me and makes me use my brain to overcome it. And then it's been challenging because sometimes like marketing, that is the most frustrating piece of the puzzle, but I finally am starting to get that side down and I'm marketing in the way that I want to. You know, I'm reaching out to guys and saying, Hey, I don't want you to just post a link to this and be an affiliate. I want you to represent this, and and that to me is more important and uh invested in it, believe in it. Yeah, like my my friend uh Wesley Spear from Strategic Veterans Outdoors just did uh a hunt for Rally Point, put together for the veterans, and we donated gear. A lot of guys did, it was great, and these guys had a wonderful time. Uh, you know, having someone like Wes in my corner has been so valuable. And then that first bow shop, Brian Scheisser from Herndon Archery out by Fort Campbell, so awesome because he actually supported the um making of the gear in his bow shop. That was the first place where I had a sale was in his bow shop. So that's like having that level of support and the people that are bought in and the people who really support the long-term vision and not the short-term uh monetary benefit of it. That's that's where I've started to hit my stride in marketing.

Zakk Plocica:

So, so what about as far as I mean, obviously you can buy them directly from you, um, but like what's your goal as far as like dealers? Are you looking at bringing dealers on, having them in the bow shops? Because I mean I'll be the first to say, I think maybe I'm a little biased here, but the the archery shops are the backbone of the archery industry. And without the archery shops, you don't have the archery industry, right? You got to have good tax and everything to set your bows up. But whenever people are coming in to buy bows, they're also looking at the hunting side. So, what's your what's your goals as far as like potentially getting them in shops?

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, so definitely want to get them in shops. Totally agree with you on the point about bow shops because this will always be an industry where you need to have something in your hand to believe, be a believer. Uh, you know, you may take a risk, and that risk is financial right now by going direct to consumer. And um, you can eliminate some of that risk by going to a bow shop. And my end goal is to be in bow shops. Right now, I'm trying to educate consumers on my product. So my push right now is more business to consumer. I still deal with bow shops all the time, and I give them great terms because I won't manufacture a product or list it for sale at a price where I can't afford to give them a great margin. Gotcha. Because they have to have the margin. Because working in Brian's Bow Shop at Herndon Archery, I really saw the struggles of a small bow shop owner and the margins that you guys have on bows and other gear. And it's like, some of this gear is made in China. How is the margin 20? How are you guys only getting 20 points out of this? And it's it's frustrating. And you know, uh, something that you need as a bow shop owner, you need me to have really good marketing and a really good education on my product. People need to walk in and say, I want a wayward wire and pick it off the shelf and know what it is and how it's used. You don't need to spend any more of your time educating them on my product. So that's why the focus is on business to consumer right now for the education piece of and then as we grow and become more of a household name, it'll be the focus shifts to bow shops and getting them the products.

Zakk Plocica:

I think that's important, is if as for especially for shops, right? When the shop has to do all the marketing and all the education on a product and nobody's coming in asking about it, that's difficult.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

Um, because if you look around a lot of the bow shops, they don't have the same um it's it's I would say it's kind of an old school industry, right? It's a lot of word of mouth. Um as far as current media, there's a lot of influencers and stuff that you see out there, but like bar bow shops, a lot of them are kind of that old school way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

Um and if people aren't coming in asking for the product, it's hard to stock the product.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, exactly. It's just gonna collect dust on the shelf. And and one of the things that I implemented in my business to combat that is one of the terms that I have when you um become a vendor for me is um I do a 90-day buyback for bow shops. So after 90 days, if my product's just sitting on your shelves and taking up space, I'll buy it back from you for the same price because you shouldn't have to sit with my product until next bow season for it to not sell anything. And if people in your area don't know about my product, it's not gonna sell.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Jake Roberts:

So that's why the onus is on me to go direct to consumer right now. And also one of the big things that I saw where I saw the suffering from the bow shops is the online um discounts. Dis yeah. Discounting, discounting products that the bow shops just can't meet. If I'm gonna run a discount, I'm gonna one, make the stores alert to it. And two, I'm probably not gonna discount it anymore. Like where my cost, uh, the cost to the consumer to get it shipped to them is gonna be any different than it would for them to go into their local bow shop because they need to support their local bow shop. And it should not be more advantageous for you to come directly to me.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, that's so that's one of the big things. We've seen so many businesses go consumer direct, right? And then they cut the throat of the dealers, and there's, I mean, nothing we can do. I'm looking at brands right now that are doing 60% off direct to consumer. That's greater than what the dealer margin is, which is, you know, I'm like, so how do you expect somebody to stock your product if you're gonna cut their throat and not give any incentive or, you know, reimburse because we can't run that sale. We're out. Exactly. Um, so you know, though and that that makes it difficult for a lot of shops, uh, you know, and then you can go and you can order it from out of state and potentially get it tax free too. And ship to you for free. So what's the incentive to go to your local shop?

Jake Roberts:

There isn't one. Exactly. And I right now I have I keep my my bow shop list very short right now because I am still uh and very much growing. And I don't want to have more shops than I can personally tend to. And one of the things that I'm going to do for Black Friday say I'm going to offer a sale on the website is I'm going to reach out to them and say, hey, I'm offering a sale at this price. You can match my price for these days. And I will throw that back onto your account, the sales that you get. So that way you're getting free product to replace the product that you sell at a discount. So you're actually not losing anything in terms of what you uh in what your dealer margin is. Right.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, that's cool, man. That's important. It's important. And when dealers see that, they I mean they feel valued. And then you know it's it's an incentive to continue to work with the brand. Yeah. Of course.

Jake Roberts:

I think that's a good we we all understand like you're in business, I'm in business, and and and I know that my product is nothing without a bow shop. Right. At the end of the day, I need bow shops. So I I don't I don't ever plan on just being direct to consumer. It's just not it's not part of my value system as a business, and let alone my strategy. Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

So so what's your major um as far as like channels for like marketing? Like is it is it TikTok? Is it Instagram? Is it YouTube? Like where do you see your most return?

Jake Roberts:

Instagram and TikTok actually give me a lot of returns. TikTok shop has been really good to me. Really? Oh, okay, yeah, it has. Um the Instagram, I think I get a lot more genuine interaction, but on TikTok, like the virality of certain videos and uh showcasing the product just reaches so many more eyes that um it generates more traffic to the website and I I see a greater return on that. So it's really I have to go uh I kind of pincer them and get both in there. They're both equally important to me right now. Whereas, you know, it when it comes to marketing, usually they say focus on your primary. But right now I'm seeing different really high yielding things because like I want to educate the people on Instagram, but I want to sell to the people on TikTok if that's right.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, yeah. So that so it's been to me, it's a game of volume. Yeah. Like I look at all platforms, all platforms have value, and we have different age demographics based off the platform too, like TikTok being the youngest, yeah, then Instagram, then Facebook, um, and then YouTube is uh for extreme outfitters, is probably the most influential uh platform for for our shop for there.

Jake Roberts:

But you guys are so educational too. Like no one walks away from one of your videos without learning something. Yeah, or telling us we're stupid.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah. Whatever. No, but that's me. Yeah, it's I think it's important though, and in our like that's the whole thing with the archery project, right? Is it's just an education-based platform. So uh, and it's been important to me that we can sit down with like manufacturers and other hunters and just have these discussions because it's cool, man. I mean, people want to learn about all facets of the the archery industry, yeah. You know, from the manufacturing side to actual on the ground hunting side. Uh, it's a very interesting industry. And we talked about it uh a little bit earlier too, and kind of how the the industry has transitioned, right? ATA used to be the big show that everyone would go to and like all the manufacturers. And now you look at it with the rise of Total Archery Challenge and their vendor village and on the ground with directly dealing with the um customers and consumers, like ATA would had its place and they seem like they're bringing it back this year and doing something more, bringing allowing um uh they're allowing consumers to come through.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, they have a they have uh uh some days blocked off that are still just for the um for the vendors. Yeah, and then um and then there are other days. I think it's five days total where they're having uh consumers in to see the products. So what what each um you know booth allows them to see is you know up to them. But it you can get you could really as a manufacturer get people excited about next year's products.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, I think so too. I think that's important, but uh, it's funny to me with the rise of Total Archery Challenge, which seemed to just be a place to go shoot your bow and shoot these awesome courses, but what it's done for vendors in the vendor village, the amount of exposure you gain going to that event, because that draws everybody. And we're talking about your bow hunters, your families. I mean, there's kids there, there's all kinds of stuff. And then you get to go walk through and meet and greet with all the vendors and test product. I mean, I feel like Total Archery has been like the best thing for the archery industry as far as events go.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, and I you know, I think I I heard you talking about it in one of your other podcasts, but it's just fun, is my understanding. It's not necessarily competitive at all, which is great because where else do you see that in the archery industry? Exactly. It's like who shot the biggest deer or we're at an actual archery shoot. So to have a place where bow hunters can come together and and shoot dynam in a dynamic environment, learn from each other, polish their skills before season and see what the vendors are offering. That's cool.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And like I said, for you too. I mean, if you get an opportunity to go, yeah, go to one, you have to, man. I mean, it would it's great exposure. Even if you don't get a booth, you can tag in with someone else, go with extreme outfitters. Yeah, set up an ibu.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I'll be there.

Zakk Plocica:

And you meet so many cool people, uh, and then you can showcase your product and let people get hands on it. And the people you meet are just awesome, man.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Jake Roberts:

I I've found that's pretty common in the archery industry typically. And and you know what, the ones who aren't suss themselves out pretty quick.

Zakk Plocica:

Absolutely, man. Yeah, it's a great industry, man. I really enjoy it um in the the short, you know, seven to eight years that I've been involved in it um directly. Uh, and man, it's it's it's a blast. I mean, it's my whole life.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah. And and what you know how we talked about dynamic solving problem solving earlier and just how fulfilling that is to mo to to men who um who need stimulation. This industry uh will never stop offering a dynamic environment for growth and opportunity. It's amazing.

Zakk Plocica:

Absolutely, man. I mean, whether you're directly involved in it, you're a uh consumer, I mean, there's there's so much to be to be had within this industry. Um I mean, and there's so much opportunity in it, I think, as well. Um that we're seeing, I mean, from the creative space to the manufacturing side. Um there's a lot, man, to the instruction side. There's just so much that you can do within this industry. And it's I think it's a yeah, at times we eat our own, I would say. Yeah, I've seen that. But I think for the most part, it's it's just it's a great industry to be involved in. It's dude, it's like I said, it's my life. I love it. Yeah.

Jake Roberts:

Well, we talked about those gaps a little bit too, and like you, you and I both see uh in our in our respective businesses, see a huge gap between what we envision as our end goal and where the industry's at right now. Yeah. And it's up to us to be the drivers uh to push that needle forward. That's it.

Zakk Plocica:

Look at some of these new young brands that are coming up. I mean, you said a prime example is Ultra View.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, their marketing is just they just crush everyone on marketing.

Zakk Plocica:

I think Colby is a cool dude, anyways. I really enjoy talking to Colby. Uh we actually had him on the podcast, uh, and he's just got a really good vision. Yeah. And he's a hard, you know, he just drives that thing hard.

Jake Roberts:

Like seems like he's really um, you know, he was in college when he and he made this idea, and he's just, I mean, just as an outside observer, he seems like a very mature man.

Zakk Plocica:

He is. He does yeah, it's hard, you you forget how young he really is whenever you sit down and talk with him. And he's very nice too, and very um just yeah, he's a CEO under 30.

Jake Roberts:

That's amazing. Uh that's incredible by any measure of anything. And then to be doing it so successfully and beloved by the community. Wow.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, well, and you think, man, he's like one of the biggest. When you think Archery at this point, one of the biggest brands within the archery industry.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

I mean, it's it's very impressive in what he's done. Um, and to be as grounded, from what I can tell, and when every time I've talked to him, I mean, he's come in our shop and never like just what the first time he came in, he just wandered in, didn't introduce himself, and he just showed up here and we, you know, we met him. Um, so super cool, very grounded, very um easy to get along with, and just somebody I think that offers a lot. Uh, and it's cool, like I said, you being able you flew in here from Dallas, you know, to come and sit down and do this. I mean, it's it's awesome. There's a lot of great people within this industry that are just looking to, I think, better the industry.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah. And you know, it's it's really awesome too when you meet other people with extreme mindsets, if you will. Um, because those are the guys who are really pushing this industry. Uh, because you know, it used to be a dying industry, archery was. And and you know, you can look at some metrics and still say that's happening, right? But I see a really good trend towards saddle hunting. I have a five and ten year uh vision of what the industry is gonna look like, and it looks healthy, it looks good. I think so too, man.

Zakk Plocica:

I mean, we've we've watched in the last couple years just the the boom in saddle hunting um and how a lot of people have gravitated towards it. Just um yeah, I mean, all the look at all the brands that have stood up.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, and you know it's one thing too that I I just uh just realized is as as you focus more on the minimalist side of things, you're actually lowering the barrier to entry. Because if I need to buy one stick and make an aider in my house versus buying four sticks, and if I can afford a nicer platform then or whatever I need, if I don't need a pack because I can just carry my stuff in because I'm making do and I'm modding my own gear my way, it's actually gonna lower the barrier to entry to be a minimalist in hunting.

Zakk Plocica:

Absolutely, I agree. Uh which you make me want to go now with just completely overhaul all my gear. Yeah, right. I want to go and just strip everything down and start over again. Because I go back and forth, man. I've got, I usually have a hang-on that I usually run, like in it's an XOP retrograde or a cold world. They don't make them anymore. Um, and then I I wear that in and then I attach my sticks to that. But the more I look at it, um, I go back and forth. I'm like, ooh, you know, do I want to go back down? Do I want to cut my sticks down, change out the way my eighters are? How can I attach this differently? Uh and I think that's part of the fun with this whole thing.

Jake Roberts:

It is ripping up a piece of gear that you just bought and hundreds on and saying, nope, this isn't good enough. Yep, that's that's probably one of the funnest things that you can do. And and I think that what that's what pulls a lot of guys over into saddle hunting. It's not just the mobility aspect, they want to be able to put their own flavor on things.

Zakk Plocica:

It's the customization that comes along with it.

Jake Roberts:

It is, and that's what really gravitated me towards it is and and makes me want like it's it's the people in this industry that made me want to manufacture gear for them. Originally, I was just doing it for myself, and like I told you, I'd be manufacturing this gear for myself and my friends, even if I had no business.

Zakk Plocica:

Um I think that's how all great companies start though.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah. Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

You know, that's kind of like the story of it. It's like I did this for myself and it turned out it was, dude, I I I kind of nailed it.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, things have really accelerated quickly in under a year to have the sales that I've had, it's been fantastic. And that the positive feedback, which like I said, at times is frustrating because there's very little negative feedback that I need to grow. But at the same time, it's it's rewarding in its own way. I just thrive in a more negative place.

Zakk Plocica:

So dude, I I feel like that. My wife says that. She's like, Why are you doing this? Yeah, you don't have to. I'm like, I I don't really know. I don't have a good answer for you, but it just feels right.

Jake Roberts:

Because I'm I'm hungry. That's why. That's it, man. I'm driving forward. I need I need purpose.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah. Wow. That's exactly what it is. Purpose, man. It's it's important. It it's what um, you know, when you become stale and stagnant, and yeah, you know, things just seem to the outlook doesn't seem to be as bright.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah. And that's that's part of what led me to go even more minimalist and just start hunting on the ground. And that's what, and just having that heart throbbing moment.

Zakk Plocica:

Dude, so you can't tell me there's you like when you are able to be within, you know, 15 yards on the ground, eye level with an animal, like that just feels primal. Yeah. Like it's different versus when you've proactively made this happen, right? Like you haven't just you didn't there's I'm I love setting up the perfect ambush site and capitalizing it on it, but whenever you're able to push the boundaries a little bit more and move in on something and then create that opportunity, that to me is like the most primal feeling. You're like, I did something. Yeah, like I made this happen.

Jake Roberts:

That feels like hunting. Yes. And that's like it's like putting it in italics, it's just a different flavor on the same exact thing, and it's just it feels different, it feels primal, as you put it.

Zakk Plocica:

I I love it, man. I think that's the draw to bow hunting, too, man. That's why I love that it's the most frustrating, rewarding thing you'll ever do.

Jake Roberts:

Yep, you'll never try harder to be unsuccessful at something. Yeah, and that's that's so seductive in a way. It it really draws you in. Once you become a bow hunter, you're not going back.

Zakk Plocica:

You know what's funny too is how quickly when you are successful, that feeling like you're like, what's next? Yeah, like it's so fleeting. It's it's yeah, I mean, yes, you get that high and you're like, wow, I've done this, and you reflect on it and you look back and you're like, what worked, what didn't work, yeah, uh, and then you look forward to that next yeah thing. So that next failure.

Jake Roberts:

I'm gonna go off on it. Yeah, yeah. And and and that's kind of like what I talked about earlier is the uh driving towards failure is exactly how is exactly how a special forces team is successful. So I'll just use um uh training to clear houses as an example, CQB. So how we did it on my team was we you know we did our crawl crawl walk run for new guys, and then we get up to our run phase, and then we just push it too fast. Hard, hard, hard, hard, go, go, go until something breaks and uh we're reaching failure because of the same thing repeatedly. And then we dial it back 10%. We focus on that thing until we can't get it wrong. So if it's stepping center on a door to to make your initial uh move into a room, you drill every single piece of that until everyone on the team cannot get it wrong, and then you crank it back up to 110% and go until something breaks again, and then you train that thing down at 90% until you can't get it wrong. That's exactly the approach that I have toward making gear and that I have towards life, and that it sounds like you're the same way.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, I love it, man. Yeah, dude, it's I mean, there's I I don't know. There's not a there's not a lot I can compare to it. I mean, I don't have the background that you had, obviously. Um, but I think it's cool to the amount of individuals that I've had the opportunity to sit and talk to and have these discussions with, and then we are all able to relate to this this common thing. Yeah, uh, it's it's neat, man. Um it's definitely uh something that I really enjoy. And I I really enjoy talking about it to you guys like you who have an extensive history. We're we're pretty fortunate where we're located um to be able to constantly talk with guys like you, but your guys' previous experience, how you apply that to the hunting side of things is what really fascinates me because like we were talking about like map reading, right? That's one thing that I'm not great on reading contour lines and topographic maps, uh, and then how that's like so easy for that for someone who's done it on an extreme level, right?

Jake Roberts:

You because it's like it's like going 100% and backing down to 90. You know, it's like it's it becomes a lot easier. Um, yeah, because we used to just do it in the dark with no no light. You have a map and a compass, and all you can see on that compass is this little like a like a um like a chem light, basically. It's just this little faint glowing piece, and you kind of see uh the number for the azimuth that you're gonna walk on, and then you just walk in that direction in the dark for nine kilometers or however far into your next point. Yep. Oh, I'm here. You're not worried about being quiet though, so that's pretty, pretty pivotal to it. Whereas with hunting, you are. That's why I use the white light.

Zakk Plocica:

Which makes sense, man. I'm that I'm so I'm putting that into play the next time I go out, which hopefully like tomorrow. We'll see. Uh, we got a nice uh massive temperature drop rolling in here and uh high pressure day, so we'll see. But I'm dude, I'm taking that approach. I'm getting rid of the red light, and I'm gonna go in full white light.

Jake Roberts:

I hope you have an experience with the with the deer. I hope you do. So do I hope that deer blows and runs away from you?

Zakk Plocica:

Damn it, he was wrong. Biggest deer I've ever seen in North Carolina just blew at me. He's gone forever. Oh, dude, that's funny, man. So moving forward, you've got some cool new products that you're gonna be releasing this next year.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, we're going into soft goods, and while I won't go into the specific details, um, you know, we talked about gaps. There is a huge gap in what where we're at. Like, I like I love the plateau pack, it's definitely the best pack I've ever had. But it is way more packed than I need. And most people will look at the plateau pack and think, It's tiny, it's so small, I'm not gonna fit my jacket in there.

Zakk Plocica:

You're like, yeah, you're like me, man. So I because like I like just having a pouch on my side, and I'm like, if I take more than that, yeah, I'm gonna dump it. But so so let me we'll kind of go off track a little bit here. I want to ask you like when it comes to you hunt um like late season.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I hunt I I hunt, I bow hunt from early through late season.

Zakk Plocica:

Okay, so how do you pack in your your jacket and stuff?

Jake Roberts:

So if I if when I have a pack or anything with a strap, I don't put it in my pack, I just push it through that strap and it hugs against my body.

Zakk Plocica:

While you're move while you're getting into where you're going.

Jake Roberts:

Okay, don't need it to be packed away. Yeah, yeah. So even if you just had a bino harness, you can tuck it inside of that. That's smart and just move with it. It just needs to come with you. It doesn't need to be pretty.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah. See, look at it. It's too much sensed. Yeah. Simple. Yeah, the deer don't care if you're wearing sick code. So, so um okay, so now that you bring that up, we're gonna take this podcast a little bit longer. What is your thoughts on um like patterns and camo in the woods?

Jake Roberts:

You know, this is a question that I'm really finding myself asking now because a recent hunting experience. So, like I'm not like like I told you, I grunt in as a cover sound.

Speaker 1:

Yep.

Jake Roberts:

And um I rattled um successfully for the first time. It's like I've tried rattling on public before, and uh, you know, Fort Camels hunted pretty aggressively. So I I avoided the rattling because I found it spooked more deer than anything. But I I just got into this spot where I was like, man, it just feels right here. I've seen it before. I came back with a set of rattling antlers and I rattled and I had three deer bust in to see. And I I was brushed in really well on my right, really well on my left, and I thought they were gonna come along this trail and that I was gonna have that open opportunity. They walked straight into you. They came right at me. Three bucks. As fast as they came in, they went right out, and I was not moving a muscle.

Zakk Plocica:

Did they did you do you paint your face or anything?

Jake Roberts:

No, I don't, but I cover my face.

Zakk Plocica:

Oh, you do? Yeah, okay. Because I used to not um and I so I cannot stand like a balaclava or a face cover and try to anchor.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I just hate it. I just have to have it over my lip. I can't do my nose, otherwise I can't anchor properly. Exactly.

Zakk Plocica:

So, but I went back to painting my face because I kept getting picked off. It's like my white ass face just sticks out, like no matter everything else, my face would just glow. And I felt like that was one of the reasons I was getting picked off. Because I typically hunt in like where they're called Fjall Raven pants. Um, it's just a high-end outdoor pant, right? Um, they wear really good. They're pretty quiet. They, they, I like that they've got some stretch in them. Um, and then I typically wear like a flannel, if it's cold, like a flannel and a base layer, something simple. Um, so I'm not so much a camo guy. I'm I like pattern to break me up. Yes. But I'm curious your thoughts on it. Are you a camo guy or are you a more of a pattern? Concealment. Concealment, yeah.

Jake Roberts:

Concealment over everything. Because it doesn't matter if you wear blue jeans and flannel. If you're concealed, you're concealed. Yep. And and that's that's the be all end all. And when it comes to face paint, I love that you brought this up. Because I've been itching to put something out about this before because like you paint your face in the military quite often. So when guys are painting their face, if you want to be more successful, use darker colors on the high spots, shiny spots of your face. So like cheekbone, cheekbone, eyebrow bone, eyebrow bone, and then use lighter colors on the um faceted parts of your face, and that creates a flat effect for your face in the woods.

Zakk Plocica:

I went through a whole camo paint facing like Google search thing because I was because I was always intrigued by guys that were able to. I love the idea of disappearing into the woods, right? Like I can go in there and you can't find I tape up my bows, I tape up my gear, I like stuff to disappear. Like I set my bow down, I want it to be like where'd it go? Right. And I I got really interested in the um paint side of things, like what matters? Because I see everybody do these dumb designs. No offense if you do them. Um, like paint, like just random paint on their face. And I was like, man, I how why do guys that are in like these sniper platoons that disappear and able to stalk in so well? Like, how do they paint their face? That was what fascinated me. So I went down this thing and I was reading about how you want to create that flat look and you want the darker faces on the taller parts of your face versus the lighter. Um, and I still look retarded whenever I I don't know if I can say that. Um still look dumb whenever I I paint my face, I look like uh, I feel like. Um, but I felt like it made a big difference for me as far as getting picked off, having something that just gets rid of all the white because I feel like it stood out really, really bad, especially when it was cold.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, now that I'm hunting on the ground, I think that's the way to go. Uh, because like I'm like I said, like my thresh, my threshold for what excites me is just so much higher than the average person. Like to to be to get that adrenaline dump, I have to have a truly stimulating experience. And like smelling that deer 10 feet away from me on the ground is cool is pretty much what it needs to be if I'm gonna feel that way in hunting. And I want to have fun, I want to do that stuff. And I think I'm gonna have to incorporate the face painting if I really want to be successful at it. Because like I said, in and out, like didn't didn't stop for one second.

Zakk Plocica:

So how what do you think it was?

Jake Roberts:

Oh, they just they I mean I wasn't brushed in, even though I wasn't moving, my camo didn't matter. Even though my camo was okay for the scenario, I was like I had a pond behind me, I had some tall brush behind me, brushed in really well on the sides, and then open for a sh uh shot in the front. And I just they just came from exactly the wrong spot for me.

Zakk Plocica:

So what was your what's the what would you have done differently?

Jake Roberts:

Oh yeah, I would have all the concealment directly in front of me. I would I would I would rather get in coming from the side. Yeah, like if I had tall like uh like switchgrass, I would I would rather be in the middle and breaking stuff up and uh grunting while doing it and um and then stand up for the shot than to be in the on my knees and taking a shot from an open.

Zakk Plocica:

Oh, you were on the ground, yeah.

Jake Roberts:

Oh dang.

Zakk Plocica:

Okay, yeah, okay. That I got you now. So you were eye level with these guys.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, yeah, they came right in, saw me, and ran right out. Yeah, yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

Oh man, that's always so exciting, though.

Jake Roberts:

It was, it was I was like, is this seriously gonna work? Five minutes into my sit? It's like this is awesome. Yeah, I was like, oh shit.

Zakk Plocica:

Here they come.

Jake Roberts:

Oh dang, there they go.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, surprise, surprise.

Jake Roberts:

So so what do you normally like as far as like um apparel goes, what do you Well, um, you know me, I'm a fan of a lifetime warranty. So Badlands camo. You wear Badlands I like, yeah. Their stuff's great. It's really well thought out for bow hunters specifically, and um, you know, it's just second and none on the warranty. So I I really love companies that stand behind their products, and I I love supporting that mentality.

Zakk Plocica:

So what about uh you wear their cold weather stuff too? Yeah, I do. Okay, because it gets cold where you're at.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, it gets that's primarily what I have for them is that I I use their stuff for the cold weather because they're uh like I have their some bibs and a jacket from them that are both waterproof and for cold weather. And they just I've never been cold hunting except for my hands and feet.

Zakk Plocica:

Dude, I hate wearing layers bow hunting. Like dude, but once you get cold, like if you can't recover from that, like that that'll ruin hot, man. Cold feet, cold hands. Yeah, yeah. I think uh that's where I think spending good money on quality um apparel really shines.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, and if you don't understand layering, like if you if your core gets cold when you hunt, you're not layering properly. That's probably the number one indicator. Is if your legs, your upper legs and torso are cold, you're doing something wrong. You need like for instance, what I do is just a marino wool liner. It's not especially thick, it's actually really thin. I wear it in the mid-season all the way through late season, and then a down insulating layer, and then a jacket over the top that's a shell and is waterproof, and that keeps in heat so well.

Zakk Plocica:

Yep, I agree. And then you realize you're not as bulky as you as you thought you were gonna be.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, because you can get the lower profile insulating layer, like you you know, like uh this is an expensive example, but the Patagonias that have that uh synthetic insulation instead of down, um, that works really well too, and it still functions when it gets wet. Right. So yeah, that that will keep your uh chest lower profile, and it's it's that uh that winter setup plus uh bino harness just does not work for me.

Zakk Plocica:

That's a nightmare, dude. Yeah, I'm with you on that. That's my biggest complaint.

Jake Roberts:

I'm not sure you could wear a layering system plus something on your chest and be perfect to take a shot. It's gonna be slightly different than how you would normally shoot. Yep, yeah, I'm with you, man.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, that's funny, dude. So uh so face paint.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, I'm dude. Yeah, dark, dark on the heavy spots on the on the high spots and light on the low spots, and you will actually create a flat effect like you're looking into nothing. Yeah, and uh that's what they teach you in the army. That's definitely uh how I would approach it as a deer hunter, too. And I'm definitely gonna be implementing that myself because obviously I have the experience, but I've not applied that to the deer woods. There's there's so much from special forces that correlates over to hunting. It's so fun seeing the the the relationships form and coming into the industry with those blinders on and that fresh set of eyes towards things, and you know, planning and designing in a vacuum. And that's why I don't have a million SKUs, I just have like two or three products that just are different but work really well. And that's that's I like that.

Zakk Plocica:

I love it. That's the thing I love about bow honey, man. It requires everything to work your planning, your preparation, and then getting accessing, um, and then constantly reflecting on all those failures in order to, you know, at some point make it happen.

Jake Roberts:

And there's always going to be the factor of luck, too.

Zakk Plocica:

Oh, dude, it's it's a massive part of the game.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, the deer are biological beings, they're they're not robots. Right. So it doesn't matter if he comes in on an east wind in the morning, typically, he may not that day. Right. I never take the same path, same exact footsteps through my house to get to the bathroom, right? Um, the deer is the same way. He's living in his house, and he's not gonna go the same exact steps every single time. That's it.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, that's good. You gotta constantly be able to shift and move and adapt as a bow hunter. So, and that's the great thing about the saddle hunting thing, man. You can climb anything, you can get in anywhere. You know, branches are no longer an issue, and it really gives you the opportunity because cover and concealment are so critical, especially at a lower hunting height, that you can get in and really kind of cut yourself into that um and set yourself up for success.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, and and where I find it most successful is when I don't have a downwind side that I have to worry about. So if you're cut setting up off of like a drainage that has a heavy drop or you're um you're working with a body of water on your backside, you can get really low. Yeah, you can get you can hunt on the ground. Um, it's and and you don't need that to hunt on the ground or the downwind side, but it really helps. Like I'm not worried about calling something in, rattling on the ground because I can I'm gonna brush up these leaves, I'm gonna do uh some mock scraping, some um rubs while I'm there to make it really sell this to these deer. And I'm not worried about anything going to the downwind side if it's blocked off.

Zakk Plocica:

Yep, uh, that makes sense.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah, but unfortunately they came in directly at me. So what do you know?

Zakk Plocica:

Surprise, surprise. Uh that's funny how that works. Uh so that's it, man. So Wayward Ridge, you can find you online, waywardridge.com. You can find you on any of your social channels. Um, so if you're in the uh the market for saddle accessories, you've got some absolute bangers, man. You've also got uh a cool um the thing that I saw more recently was your your saddle hunting and your phone.

Jake Roberts:

Uh your phone mount.

Zakk Plocica:

Phone mount, which I thought was really cool. Which for me looking at it, um, I I typically have mine in my buying a harness all the time, right? And that gives you the ability with if you're saddle hunting, how it attaches to that carabiner. Yeah, like because I'm constantly looking at where we talk about weather and then onyx and stuff like that, and plotting why I made mistakes and where I'm at, you know, and how I should probably move. And it's hands-free. Yeah. So it's a it's a super cool concept.

Jake Roberts:

It is, yeah. That's why that's why I filed uh for a patent and it's patent pending because it just it really did seem like a game changer to me and worth protecting the uh, you know, the intellectual property there. Yeah. And it it really allows you to communicate with your spouse, see what they have coming in. It allows you to see your shot break because it tracks with you as you move in your saddle. So if you wanted to see that shot go off and how you performed under pressure, you can actually get record that. Yeah. And which is a special thing because where else can you do that?

Zakk Plocica:

Exactly. It's funny too. Everybody thinks they did the right thing, and then you can go back and look at the the video and you're like, wow, man, I hammered that trigger. Wow, I didn't even look through my peep site. What do you mean? Yeah, yeah. That's crazy.

Jake Roberts:

Capture your reaction to your, you know. To show to your spouse. That's it. They don't care about the kill shot. They just care about you.

Zakk Plocica:

That's it. You're 100% right there. So that's it, man. So if anybody wants to get a hold of you, waywardridge.com. You've got new products coming out. You're constantly looking to innovate and improve upon what you're doing. And you've got some killer stuff. Killer warranty, lifetime warranty on all of your products. Uh, and built for the the minimalist, the saddle hunter. Yeah. I like it, man. What else you got? Anything else new or exciting?

Jake Roberts:

No, there's uh yeah, one thing. We're really gonna reimagine the whole pack and uh uh chest rig.

Zakk Plocica:

So I'll be first on the list because you know how like I we're we're very similar, I think, in our our thought process and what we want to take with us and what we want to leave behind and in that approach. So I will be first in line to uh be buying and uh testing this out, man. I'm looking for I'm honestly super excited now that you bring it up to check it out.

Jake Roberts:

We'll talk off camera, but uh I think it's really gonna shake up the industry and make people think differently, which is good. Like let's come up, shake the tree, and see who else can innovate even better than us. I I I want that. I really do.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, no, I'm excited for it, man. I'm excited for everything you got going on. You've really got some cool stuff, man. Awesome background that carries into um to what you're doing now. And um, I think your your your company is um refreshing to see uh because it's not products just built just to make them, they actually truly solve problems and uh improve on, you know, ultimately give people the opportunity for more success with the how you're eliminating waste.

Jake Roberts:

Yeah.

Zakk Plocica:

Yeah, I like it, man.

Jake Roberts:

I appreciate you.

Zakk Plocica:

Of course. All right, that's it. That is Mr. Jake Roberts from Indiana, um, all the way here in North Carolina, dude. Again, I can't say thanks enough for coming out, sitting down on here. And um, yeah, I'm really interested to see what you got coming out this year. Yeah, I'm super stoked. So, Jake, appreciate you, man. Um, but that's it, guys. That's another episode of the Archer Project. Drop some comments, give us some feedback, uh, and go head over to waywardridge.com, check out all of his products. He's got some really cool stuff. Um, and uh give us some feedback too on your thoughts on saddle hunting. Like what are some things in the industry that you think are missing or that could be improved upon, uh, you know, that we can take away from, look at. And um, you know, if you ever use any of Jake's products, let us know. Give some feedback on them because they are awesome. So again, Jake, thanks again, man. Appreciate Jake for having me. That's it. So, all right, guys, appreciate you guys following along. That's another episode of the Archery Project, and we will see you guys in the next episode.