Speaker 1: 0:35

Thank you, good day everyone and thank you so much for joining. Speaking with Sandra L, as I always say, I certainly, certainly, certainly look out, and everyone that knows me knows that I look out for the patient's experience. I want to make sure, and our foundation works to ensure that the patient's experience is good. I don't even want to say good, I want to say great, because I always shoot for ensuring that patients have access to optimal healthcare. And what does optimal healthcare mean for Sandra L? Well, it means the patient and the provider work together to ensure that the patient is getting the best healthcare ever.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Talking to people over this weekend when I was out and I was like you know what I want people to have? I want patients, not to say people. People are patients and patients are people. But I say I want our patients to understand that there's more to it than just going down the street to see Dr Jones. You need to see Dr Jones and you need to ensure that you have a good communication role with Dr Jones. And if you don't, then you need to ensure that you have a good communication role with Dr Jones and if you don't, then you need to actually consider talking to someone else, maybe giving a referral or even if not a referral, you know, looking online. But I tell people this all the time please be careful about using Dr Google and Mr Firefox to find yourself a good doctor. Please be aware to follow instructions or information that they're putting out on Dr Google and Mr Firefox, because a lot of times, if you don't understand that information, it will lead you down a rabbit's hole and we don't need any patients, especially those that are underserved, under-resourced and marginalized. We don't need them going down the rabbit hole because it causes more pain for them and their loved ones, and sometimes even the doctor.

Speaker 1: 2:36

So what does it take to have optimal healthcare? Well, in my opinion, what it takes is it takes a working relationship of all the role players. So patients, the communicate, you know their inner and outer networks, support network, and the doctors coming together and saying, okay, what can we do? How can we help each other to ensure that that optimal healthcare that Sandra L is trying to get is reached? So today, with that in mind, I have an awesome, awesome, awesome PhD student. Before I even came on, I was like I thought you was going to be done. He was like no, I still got some time to go, but we want to continue to push him, continue to push him, continue to encourage him, continue to lift him up so that that goal is reached.

Speaker 1: 3:29

Because we need African-American male, we need female too. But during the men's month, men's health month, we definitely need to hear from our men, our men psychologists, our men psychiatric. We need to hear from our men, our men psychologists, our men psychiatrists. We need to hear from them because they got a story that only they can share with us, and that story comes from both them being a Black man in America and also for them, studying what it is as far as mental health for Black men in America. So, without further ado, I'm going to go ahead and introduce you and I'm going to let him introduce himself to Mr Zachary Simon, aka Zach Zach. Please let us know all about you.

Speaker 2: 4:17

I got to say thank you for that introduction and just highlighting the importance of more Black men in mental health. We need more Black male mental health providers and professionals, so I appreciate the shout out. Just to introduce myself my name is Zach Simon. I'm a doctoral student in clinical psychology. I focus on doing therapy with Black men in particular and Black folks. I use an African-centered lens, and so in my process of growing as a doctoral student, I've been learning how to paradigm shift away from Western, eurocentric standards in understanding mental health and viewing our people from an African-centered lens, so viewing our people from a lens of their African ancestry, their African ways of being and their essence of being human. And so it's been wonderful being a graduate student learning how to incorporate African-centered practices in therapy under the supervision of my supervisor, and it's been an awesome journey.

Speaker 1: 5:32

And I thank you for that. So now let's go ahead and ask you some questions so you can enlighten all of us that are either watching this live or going to catch it on a podcast. Let's go ahead and ask you some questions. And you know, guys, you're in for a double treat, because I sent some questions for him to look at and before we came on, he was like hey, sandra, is it okay if I ask you questions? And I said it's great if you ask me questions, so you get the chance to actually not that you don't hear me, because many people that know me know, yes, sandra's going to speak up, but you get a chance to actually hear some real dialect going on between me and Zach, because, as I ask him questions, he's going to ask me some, and so we'll have a beautiful dialogue today going on. So, zach, my first question to you what would you say are three primary factors that contribute to the stigma surrounding men's mental health, and how can they effectively be addressed?

Speaker 2: 6:34

Yeah, I appreciate you just focusing on just three, because there are many, but I would say the first one is, you know, lack of consistent support in a social network. I think many men, including myself, continue to live in the world without adequately having social support and people who got our back right. I think many men, including myself, oftentimes feel the need to go solo, to do things on our own, and that really degrades our mental health, right, it encourages many men to feel lonely, to feel like they don't have support and things can get overwhelming. And so many men, because they feel lonely, take on high amounts of stress, high amounts of anxiety and oftentimes have depressive symptoms. Right, and this really impacts black male mental health in terms of going after your dreams, your goals and just living a healthy life.

Speaker 2: 7:41

I think the second thing I would say is access to quality care. I think many men, including myself, oftentimes find that we don't need care, that we don't need to go to the doctor, the hospital, seeing a therapist, and oftentimes feel that we can handle it on our own. And I think sometimes, when we do this, we have a tendency to neglect certain parts of our health and well-being. I think, for me at least you know, I've neglected my body, my physical health, taking on more and more responsibilities and having it way on my heart, way on my body.

Speaker 2: 8:26

In particular, when I take on a lot of stress, I get back pain, not only when I'm carrying my backpack and everything but as I'm taking on responsibilities at work, I notice my pain in my back continues to subside, continues to grow depending on whether I'm seeking health care or not, and what I've noticed as I work with many Black men is, we take on a lot of responsibilities, a lot of roles, a lot of tasks, daily or weekly, and we tend to have physical pain, we tend to have emotional and mental pain, and we tend to be reluctant to seeking help from a mental health provider or just someone who could alleviate our pain.

Speaker 2: 9:14

And then the third I've got to say, you know, sometimes we get distracted either with social media or people in our environment that don't have our back, by distractions that continue to hinder us from going after our Africanness, our Blackness, our goals, dreams and really valuing ourselves as a human being, you know.

Speaker 2: 9:40

So I would encourage folks who are listening to this, even my younger self, to be able to find spaces and places that support our back, whether that's in the workplace, whether that's in our social life, whether that's at school Someone who really has their back, who can help us avoid the distractions, avoid the things that harm us or don't really care for us, and find spaces that do. And for me, one of my all-time favorite spaces that I continue to engage in is the Association for Black Psychology. This is where I find out about my African ancestry. This is where how I can understand myself and liberate myself from the chains of Western Eurocentric standards and notions and begin to paradigm shift towards an African-centered worldview and an African-centered way of being in the world. And I got to ask you, sandra, like what keeps you going and how do you support other men who are experiencing similar issues?

Speaker 1: 10:50

What keeps me going is the fact that, one, I'm an African-American, two, I'm a woman, right. So those two factors right there. But more importantly, I lost two of my sisters to medical gaslighting. When I take a look at it and I see what happened to them and why they're no longer in my life. As far as physically in my life, what I see, and on an everyday basis what I see, is that our community doesn't really get it right. We don't really get how important it is for us to be in control of our own healthcare system not system, but our healthcare journey. We don't get that and we need to.

Speaker 1: 11:37

So very often I am told Sandra, people you trying to help, they don't really want to be helped. Well, in a sense that's true, because some of them don't. I could vouch for it and I could say different a long time ago. But after spending 35 years in the healthcare system, after going and getting my degrees in the healthcare system, in the healthcare space, I live it, I walk it, I breathe it. Every day when I come across men who might seem to be struggling or they need help, but they're really not sure how to get that help, or they need help, but they're really not sure how to get that help. I actually, our foundation, serves as a cornerstone, so we can't do everything, god knows. I tried, I'm going to tell you when I first started the nonprofit side of it. I tried, but I came to the realization that many that Choms, many helps is better off being that cornerstone.

Speaker 1: 12:55

So when a man comes to me and says you know what, sandra, I'm really struggling these are some of the issues I have I actually reach out to the folks like you who I know will help them. I have a subset of men that I know will do the work. I'm never going to send a man to someone that I know is effing up or doesn't know what they're doing or hasn't been clinically trained, or not even clinically trained but trained lifestyle. I would never send them to that because of the simple fact that I know that our community is already hurt and we can't, we can't take no more hurt and I know, as far as a woman, you know, I know that we hurt. But men, you guys have a I don't want to cuss, but you guys have so much stuff as a leader of the family, as a leader in the community, you have so much stuff that you already have to deal with, that, me being a woman trying to break that down. I wouldn't be able to do it and I'm not even going to try.

Speaker 1: 14:06

So I thank you for asking me that question. I really do. Now you did bring up the Association of Black Psychologists that you can go to correct. So is there a place that men can go to where they can actually see who's on the chart, who they can reach out to? Is there someplace other than just going to Dr Google and Mr Firefox and looking for help? Is there a directory, a resource that could be used to seek out trained mental health experts?

Speaker 2: 14:44

Yeah, I love that question. I think there are many places and spaces to find Black men who are going after their goals and dreams. I know for myself. It was finding organizations on LinkedIn. It was finding organizations within my local environment. I'm located in the Bay Area, california, and there are several Black organizations that really support Black men In particular, not only ABCI, but things like 100 Black Men, which is another organization that really focuses on uplifting Black boys and Black men. So I would encourage folks who are listening to this to not only seek online resources like LinkedIn for spaces and places for Black men, but also in their local environment.

Speaker 2: 15:33

I would encourage folks to find mentors who are, you know, somewhat along the lines of the path you want to live right, finding a black man who works in a space or making the type of money you want to make or in a higher position that you are seeking. Finding those folks and really orienting your folks, orienting your time and energy around those folks right. How can you link and network with Black men who are where you want to be in the future? I think that is so essential and it helps us paradigm shift away from the problems and the things that cause us to be distracted with obstacles and it encourages us to be proactive and constructive with our time and energy.

Speaker 2: 16:25

I know for myself, as a grad student, I'm constantly seeking black doctorates, black folks who have a private practice, black doctorates, black folks who have a private practice. This is it's encouraging, it's inspiring, it's sexy to me to go after a goal of being a black male with a private practice, and in order to do that, I need to be equipped with tools and resources, and I know people who are where I want to be have those tools and resources, and I know people who are where I want to be have those tools and resources. So I'm going to go spend most of my time and energy networking and connecting and growing and learning from those folks.

Speaker 1: 17:04

And so I thank you so much for that. And if you're watching this today or you're listening on a podcast and you're like, okay, well, he said that, but I really don't like using LinkedIn, and perhaps you are from the old school where LinkedIn was traditionally someplace where you actually would go to find a job, it's changed tremendously over the years and so now you're exactly correct. You can go to LinkedIn and you can put in black psychologist and if they're on LinkedIn, you will get that information, it will come up and then you can reach out to them. You can reach out to me and you can say, hey, sandra, I need to find a black psychologist or a psychiatric doctor, someone in mental health for men or for boys, or a psychiatric doctor, someone in mental health for men or for boys, and I will actually be able to do the research needed to actually help you, to help that man or help that boy, with actually finding out who is a black male mental health expert that you could go to in the region that you live in. Many times, if you have insurance, that's a whole nother issue. There's a whole nother day that we can go over that. So I would use LinkedIn or, you know, contact Choms, contact me, sandra, at Choms Foundation, and say I need to find a doctor. What happens? And I do want to take, and I don't want to take up that much time with this, but what I do want everyone to know is we had, and we still have DEI diversity, equity and inclusion.

Speaker 1: 18:45

Well, part of DEI, and something that we lost sight of and something that we don't have as much of right now, is you actually calling your doctor's office and asking them to find you a black doctor. They won't do it. They won't do it. I mean, that's something that we lost. It used to be where you could go and easily find a doctor by their color. It's not going to happen when you have a doctor and excuse me for coughing when you have a doctor that you're comfortable with and that doctor leaves the practice. They want to tell you where they're going, but they sign a contract stating that they cannot tell you where they're going. But they sign a contract stating that they cannot tell you where they're going. It's a conflict of interest and no one works because they ain't got nothing better to do. They just want to work. You know no one does that.

Speaker 1: 19:48

So we as a community of people and you know whether it's male, whether it's female, whether it's based on race or gender, whatever it's based on. You need to know this information, which is why I'm continuously trying to push it out there as much as I can, because I know that there are people that don't know. I know that I get emails and I get calls and, sandra, I can't find this and I don't want to go to a doctor If it ain't African-American. I don't want to go to a doctor. My husband he prefers to have a female doctor. He said they take better care of him. So when he's looking for a doctor, I know I need to find him a female doctor, but his fallback is me and he knows that I can actually help him find that. Whatever it is he needs you who are listening or watching this. You also have that same outlet because you have a connection to Sandra. Whether it's Facebook, whether it's LinkedIn, whether it's sending me an email, whatever it is, you now have a connection to me.

Speaker 1: 20:54

So when I get upset and rightfully so when I'm talking to someone who I know I've repeated this information to, or I know that I have had a guest, like Zach on, who's going over this information and you call me and say but I didn't know, it's not an excuse. We got to get over these excuses. People, the information is out here. You just have to want to do better for yourself and you just have to want to actually be educated, empowered and engaged in your own healthcare. I can't make you do that. I'm not even going to. I tried. I beat myself up so bad because I was trying. I'm at the point now where I'm tired and I'm not going to beat myself up. I'm going to keep giving the information without beating myself up. And I see Ms Carolyn Coleman says hello. Hello, ms Carolyn Coleman, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2: 21:48

And I got to add something. You know, if you're looking for a black psychologist, yeah, it's pretty rare and hard to find. I know you could potentially find some on Psychology Today. It's a website where you can find therapists in your area. They do have search filters for black folks so you can search by not only gender but uh, you could, you know, search by ethnicity as well. I also want to shout out an organization uh, black men in white coats. They're on linkedin, they're on youtube and several other social media sites. Um, these are black men dedicated to the medical field. Um, they're a dope group. Definitely check them out. If you need a doctor in your area or just need help finding one in your area, I would reach out to them as well. They're a great group, constantly putting out events and testimonials and uplifting Black men pursuing higher education and doctorate degrees.

Speaker 1: 22:52

Thank you so much for that. So you said it's psychology today and what's the other one that you said?

Speaker 1: 22:58

it Black men in white coats, okay, and this is the thing. People Guess what. We got telehealth now. So, even if they're not in your area, you can always ask them do they offer telehealth services? So you no longer have to say, okay, well, I live in Chicago, so I can only go to a doctor in Chicago.

Speaker 1: 23:20

There's no excuse right now. There's really not. What I would suggest that you do is that once you use a tool and you find a doctor that you feel comfortable with, then check with your insurance to see if it's covered, or. There's many organizations I don't want to say many, I know of two that will actually, if you don't have insurance, will actually help you to find a mental health expert that will work with you for little or next to nothing, meaning they will put you on a sliding fee scale. There's no excuse, none whatsoever. Zach, my next question is this In your research, have you identified specific mental health challenges that disproportionately affect men, whether it's based on their race or their age, as compared to women, and, if so, what are? Can you give us like two examples?

Speaker 2: 24:15

Yeah, I mean. The first thing that comes to mind is the suicide rates. You know Black men are four times more likely to attempt suicide in comparison to white folks. You know which is an alarming rate. And I think in my experience working with black men here in the Bay, there are several factors related to that, factors such as low socioeconomic status. Right, living in the Bay where cost of living is high, it could be hard to take care of yourself, it can be hard to afford just living here in California, thereby increasing the levels of hopelessness and despair.

Speaker 2: 25:04

Also, substance use is a common issue among Black men in particular issue among black men in particular. Many black men have high rates of substance abuse, where we are abusing drugs and other substances and this really impacts our levels of memory. This really impacts our levels of emotion, regulation and expression. It impacts seeking jobs and maintaining jobs and it also just impacts our social well-being. So I've worked with several Black men who are homeless, with substance use issues and little to no income, and I think when you combine these three things, it makes for a recipe that is hard to overcome, especially without a mental health professional or a primary care doctor. So we've got to address those issues. These issues are very common among black men and you know I'm passionate in wanting to provide a space and a place in therapy to address these issues.

Speaker 1: 26:27

Thank you so much for that. And you know I do want to back up a minute because I you stated something in the first question, your response to the first question that I actually need to address, and it's this you stated that you know, physically, your physical condition is attached to your mental condition. And so many times men will say, well, my back hurts, or I'm really not feeling well, or you got any other thing that's going on with you physically and you lose sight of that physical condition, maybe attached to that mental, whatever that mental state is that you're going through. And guess what, if you don't have either one of them checked, you're not going to be very good to yourself nor your family, right? So a lot of times when people are talking, or I'm hearing things they're saying, well, that has a mental health issue, that's a physical health issue. Mental and physical are all one health. There's no such thing. They are all tied together. There's no such thing. They are all tied together.

Speaker 1: 27:36

So, ladies, if your man is constantly complaining that his back is hurting, men, even without your woman, if you're constantly finding that your back is hurting or you're having headaches or indigestion or anything like that, take some time, question him and say hey, what's going on with your life? A lot of times, they don't want to tell us that stuff. So, men, I'm asking you to be responsible enough when you start noticing that you're starting to have many more headaches than you used to have, or backaches, or whatever. I'm asking you to take the time to sit down. If you don't want to contact a mental health expert, sit down. If you don't want to contact a mental health expert, sit down. Sit down and think about what's going on in your life that's causing you to feel like that.

Speaker 1: 28:20

You could probably come up with the answer yourself whether it's stress, anxiety, depression. You come up with it yourself, but know that you need to take the time when you start seeing these things happen on a regular basis to figure out why you're feeling like that, because very often it's tied to a mental health issue. Once again, the two are intertwined, so please take the time to consider yourself. My next question is this how does societal expectations of men impact men's willingness to seek help for mental health issues? And I'm going to break that down what makes men? As women, we do it too, but this is Men's Health Month, so I'm going to ask it in a men's way. What makes men think that it's not okay to be okay? Where's that coming from?

Speaker 2: 29:12

to be okay. Well, I mean, what makes them? Where's that coming from? Yeah, that's a deep question. You know, I think oftentimes I've observed within myself that I have to be a workhorse, constantly working long hours, putting long, you know, putting large amounts of effort into all the responsibilities that I have on my plate. Right, I'm going to this place, I've got that responsibility, that role. I'm going to another place. I've got to fulfill this requirement.

Speaker 2: 29:46

And I think many men, including myself, carry this weight of stress, weight of anxiety, high expectation. We're not getting enough sleep, we have anxious thoughts either most of the day or most of the week. We are grouchy, irritable. It becomes hard for us to express and regulate emotions. Hard for us to express and regulate emotions, you know. We get harder on ourselves, we become pessimistic.

Speaker 2: 30:24

All these different things tend to be wrapped up within myself and it becomes hard to recognize that I need help, that the world expects me to do, do, do instead of be, be, be, right, I'm constantly meeting someone else's expectation and constantly stepping into a role of responsibility that I do not feel that it is safe, or I have the opportunity to just be in the world, and so I'm encouraging for folks who are listening to this, especially Black men to be able to find spaces and places where you can just be and also really seek help in re-examining your roles and responsibilities and expectations.

Speaker 2: 31:13

I think some of the expectations I have on myself are someone else's right. I've, I took on this unfortunate expectation of a huge burden on my back. I've took so much responsibilities, roles, tasks and agenda that I just have to do regardless and I have no say. And so, if you're listening to this again, it's being able to re-examine that and paradigm shift towards your Blackness, your essence of being human in the world, and being able to just be, be a Black dude and be unapologetically about it, instead of being forced into roles and responsibilities that do not align with you.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Thank you so much for that. And you know, man, it's okay, it's okay for you to take. You know, we're encouraged as women, we're encouraged so often to actually drop the luggage, quit carrying that baggage around you around, it's not ours to carry around. And men, that's the same thing with you. I mean, and you're right, so often men take on this extra responsibility because that's what society tells you that you're supposed to do, Especially with black men. You take on all of this responsibility and you're thinking, okay, well, I got to do it because that's what you've been force-fed. But you got to unfeed yourself and you got to say it's okay for me to not pick this up right now.

Speaker 1: 32:55

A lot of times there's things that I want to do and put an issue on my husband, a burden on my husband, and he's trying to do it. But he really doesn't need to have to try to do it. It's okay for him to say, not today, babe, maybe next week, Right, but as men, they, you know, try to hold up their end and they try to do what they can. And you know there's too much pressure and way too much stress. And so what do you do when you're in a relationship or a marriage when both you and your spouse are stressed out, anxiety, late, depressed, what's going to happen? What kind of relationship do you have?

Speaker 1: 33:38

You know, and me being a spiritual person, I put my spirituality in there and I'm like I'm glad that I know who God is and I have a God in my life that I could turn to and I can release some of that stuff too. So, even if you're not a Christian, whatever belief you are, have that spiritual peace so that when you're tired you have some place that you can go and you can release it and let it go. It doesn't mean that you're not going to pick it back up, because we, as people, that's what we do. We put it down and pick it back up because we don't have patience, but have that spiritual part, because it's a real big role. It plays a real big role when it comes down to mental health.

Speaker 1: 34:20

My last question for you is this Actually, no, we have two more. Can you discuss and you've talked about it a little bit, but can you discuss any, let's say two effective interventions or programs you've studied that are specifically designed to support men's health, for both the race and the age? So is there a difference between the groups that are available or the programs age. So is there a difference?

Speaker 2: 34:45

between the groups that are available or the programs. Yeah, I love that. Focus on interventions, right, let's think practical about what I do, and maybe just listening to me might help others learn what can they do. I know for myself when I'm working with Black men in therapy, I do interventions such as into psychotherapy, which is humanistic in its focus.

Speaker 2: 35:11

Into psychotherapy focuses on helping people understand the essence of how they be Right and it's being able to explore how do black men understand themselves and be comfortable with just being in the world, and I really love this. It is African centered. We explore the disconnects and the disharmony that is in their life and how to reconnect to their African ancestry and ways of being in the world. So that's one intervention that I do. It's exciting to incorporate this in therapy. I also want to suggest to everybody that, simply, reflection and introspection are two simple things that we could do on the daily, on the weekly, to learn about ourselves what do we want and need in the world and how can we go after it and what can we let go of in the process of going after it.

Speaker 2: 36:20

I think I sort of summarize this as min-maxing, right, minimizing the things that are not for us and maximizing our goals and dreams, and people who help us to achieve our goals and dreams and I think in the process of being in the process of a min-max way of being in the world, we kind of have to be judicial with our time and energy. There are some roles and responsibilities we have to say no to because it doesn't align with our way of being in the world, and then we also have to maximize the things that give us pleasure, joy and happiness and go after goals and dreams that make us who we are. So I would really encourage people who are listening to this to min-max. It may be hard to min-max and it takes a bit of practice and there's some context to it, but being able to minimize the things that do not serve you is super important. It avoids distractions and enhances our vision for ourselves.

Speaker 1: 37:31

Thank you so much for that, and my last question to you is what role do you think peer support and community networks play in improving mental health outcomes for men?

Speaker 2: 37:41

I would say it's an essential role.

Speaker 2: 37:46

I think men oftentimes, like I said before, we have a tendency to go solo, we have a tendency to not ask for help, we have a tendency to be self-made, be a boss, be recognized as a leader, be recognized as a leader, you know, and I think we relegate help as a weakness, and I think there's such a disconnect there that when we relegate help as weakness, we limit our growth and potential.

Speaker 2: 38:29

So, seeking help, having friends that got your back, um, that you're not just bsing with but who are also encouraging you and inspiring you to take that next baby step I know for myself, when I work with many men in therapy, I'm encouraging them to take a baby step that's along their goals and dreams. I do think we, as Black men, need that in our life. Sometimes that comes from our girlfriend, our fiance, our wife, and sometimes that comes from our friends, family, people from church, people from work or wherever. But many Black men need that sense of support, encouragement and inspiration to take that baby step. Hopefully that baby step is towards health and wellness. Hopefully that baby step is towards seeking a primary care doctor, a mental health professional, that next baby step in your career, your finances anything to take that next baby step.

Speaker 1: 39:27

Thank you so much for that. And what I do want to add to that part once again men, it's okay not to be okay. It really is. If you find that you're not okay, seek help. If you find that you're not okay, it's okay for you to lean on your community support. But I say this to everyone please be really careful of who you have in your circle, because sometimes, when you have the wrong people in your circle, you don't get help and sometimes having the wrong people in your circle makes it a whole lot worse for you, especially when it comes down to mental health issues, which, once again, is tied to physical health. So it just overall has a negative impact on you. If you're with a group and you feel like I'm alone, then step out, you really don't need to be there. Then step out. You really don't need to be there. You need to. Actually, you know, if you got to back up and say I'm not going to hang with them no more because they on one thing and I'm on something else, do just that.

Speaker 1: 40:33

But overall, as we close another session of speaking with Sandra L, what I want to remind everybody be kind, please be kind. It's free, it don't cost a dime. It don't even cost a penny, which we get ready to get rid of pennies. In a few years they'll be gone, but right now we need to actually be kind to each other. It's free, and with everything that's going on in this world, with everything that's going on in this world, we really need to take some time to step up our game when it comes to being kind. It's free. With that being said, I'm going to go ahead and close out this session. I do want to let everyone know we'll be back in August. Speaking with Sandra L is taking a much needed and much deserved break for the month of July, but she will be back in August because, once again, we deserve to have access to optimal healthcare. We deserve to know what the resources are. They're not going to be put on a shelf and given to you.

Speaker 1: 41:42

If you're not listening, you really do need to listen. Carolyn, thank you so much for saying great information, and Zach, thank you so much. Each time. I ask you could you come on? Can we have a discussion? You're like sure, sandra, we can, and so I'm appreciative of the fact that you're pouring from your heart what you want our community, especially our men, what you want them to know. I so appreciate that, and I'm sure that the men that are listening who have touched you know the information you have touched with. I'm sure that they, once again, will appreciate it as well. I want you to have the rest of a beautiful, beautiful app. It's 12 o'clock there, 12 30. So I want you to enjoy the rest of your beautiful day. Have a blessed day.

Speaker 2: 42:29

Thank you so much thank you, sandra, thank you.