Speaker 1: 0:12

Good day everyone and thank you so very much for joining in another episode and another discussion of Speaking with Sandra L. I'm absolutely excited that she's decided on her birthday to spend time with us discussing a topic that is so near and dear to her heart. She's going to share with us a personal experience and she's also coming at us from a lived experience, and that's what happens a lot of times with patients. They have personal and lived experiences and, unfortunately, because patients don't realize that it is the power of the voice, the power and the tone of the voice, the power that the patient holds in his or her hands, because they don't realize it, what happens is those stories that should be told. Those stories go untold.

Speaker 1: 1:12

All of us has a story to tell and you might think people already heard that story, but we didn't hear your story.

Speaker 1: 1:20

So I ask you, as a patient myself who has a personal and a lived experience, if you have a story that you want to tell, please reach out to us and say hey, Sandra, I would love to be on Speaking with Sandra L story with the world, so that the world knows that there are real people behind these stories that we read about these statistics, that we see these stories that we hear so often or that show up on Dr Google or Mr Firefox and not realizing that there are people behind it.

Speaker 1: 2:01

They show up and a lot of us read it and we have no idea that a lot of this stuff that they're telling us is made up. There's some falsehood to it. So, without further ado, I'm going to go ahead this evening and I'm going to introduce everyone to the dynamic, the awesome. She's such a sweetheart and I've grown to know her, to love her as a sister should, because we're all queens, and so, without further ado, what I'm going to go ahead and do is turn this over to Ms Nneka J Hall. I'm going to let her introduce herself and then we'll get into story time. Personal and lived experience story time. Nneka, please go ahead and tell us all about yourself.

Speaker 2: 2:49

Thank you, sandra. I guess I will start off by saying today is my 52nd birthday. I am the mom of four, three who are with me and one who rests in paradise, and it's a one who rests in paradise that has brought me on this phenomenal life journey I am now. I don't know what I am. I don't even know what title to use at this point, at this stage of the gram. I am a researcher. I am a full spectrum doula, serving people from preconception all the way up through end of life. I am a maternal health advocate. I hold a bachelor's in public health. I'm currently pursuing my master's in mental health and wellness, with emphasis in grief and bereavement, in mental health and wellness, with emphasis in grief and bereavement. And I guess I don't know what else to say about myself. I'm the founder of Mother is Supreme Inc. And Quietly United and Lost Together.

Speaker 1: 4:01

Sandra. Not only that, she is a recent 2025 graduate of the University of Maryland Patients Professor Academy and I am so glad that you know I talked her into and I'm talking to everybody into, especially if you're in policies, if you're in public health, if you want to study policies the way they should be studying and see how they impact us all. Please look into when it comes out next. Normally the class is starting July and it's a five week program. It's a free program, but the information that you learn in this program really like literally blows your mind.

Speaker 1: 4:41

I remember 2024, I graduated in 2024, I graduated from the program and I tell everybody, when I first went into this program, I was like what they're going to teach me? I know everything. Week after week after week, they just kept filling you know my mind and you know networking that was able to be done with the cohorts that were in my class and the speakers that came out, the senior subject matter experts that came out to speak to us. It literally placed me on an entirely different platform. So while I thought I knew everything, I'll be honest, I really didn't. I had no idea that there was so much wrapped into what I did know. So Nneka graduated this year and I'm so glad that she actually took the time and made time to actually come into the classes and learn what she did learn, because now we are both prepared to take this to another level.

Speaker 1: 5:45

And so what happens with going into another level is this our patients come out win-win because they're getting the knowledge that we have, we're passing it on to them, which goes along with my mantra of each one teach one, reach one. Don't just stop at teaching one, reach somebody else, and encourage the person that you do reach to go ahead and teach somebody else. So I'm not I don't care what order you do it in Each one reach one, teach one. Let's keep it going, let's move it on, because that's the only way that we're going to be sustainable in everything and anything that we do do. Nneka, I'm going to start asking your question. Okay, from what perspective are the most overlooked emotional needs of mothers navigating instant loss? From your perspective? From my perspective?

Speaker 2: 6:44

Okay, instant loss from your perspective. From my perspective, okay, let me tell you, um, my daughter, if she had been born alive, would be 15 today. Yes, I was born in 1973, on august 27th, and my daughter was still born on august 27. He was healthy and I wasn't, and I think the misconception surrounding my daughter's not being alive and my feelings about that something that shook me to the core. I was expected to get over it. I was asked well, did you have to give birth? I was asked a year later well, why are you still talking about it? I was told that these things happen and, honestly, healthy children should not be dying. Healthy children should not be dying. And she was healthy.

Speaker 2: 7:50

So I think most people are not able to support what's not uncomfortable, especially out of order grief, complicated grief. People don't know what to say or what to do. Even if they don't know whether the person can have another child, they say, well, you can try again at least, and you can insert whatever statement. I think I got. At least you didn't get to know her, at least you know you can get pregnant. I was even told that I had enough children because I already had a son and a daughter.

Speaker 2: 8:25

So I think, for the emotional piece, I think people need to do more listening and less talking. I tell my students to serve from a place of open ears and closed mouth, because if your gums are flapping you can't read a room. And what people who suffer losses need are advocates, people to sit and hold space for them and honor these little people. I don't understand why deceased babies are not treated like babies, because they are babies, regardless of the gestational age or the cause of the death. They're babies. All babies deserve to be honored, revered, made over, loved on, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 9:11

For the emotional piece, I believe that more people need to be properly trained. But empathy and this is something that was discussed this year in the PPA program and it took things to a new level for me, because I never knew. I knew that everyone was born with empathy, but what I did not know was that, because of the choices we make, it goes away. So that's not something that we can teach. It can't be taught. Either you have it or you don't. Now, if you don't have it, send them to somebody who does have it, simply because you'll be doing further harm by not caring for these people at a time when they only need positivity, love and tenderness.

Speaker 1: 10:04

And thank you so much for that. You know, what you just said goes back to what I always end my discussions with, and that's be kind always. Who are you, as another person talking to someone that has lost anyone, especially a baby, to say, well, you know, the woman has other kids. Well, at least you got some other kids. Okay, but that's not her. Who are you to say you know, well, you can have more kids. How do you know that woman can have more kids, like you're asking? You know and I'm not saying this because I want all of us that are listening, those that are listening I want you to understand this and walk away with this. Be kind always.

Speaker 1: 10:50

If you knew someone was pregnant and then they lost the baby, don't say, well, at least you didn't get to know her, because if that baby is growing inside of you from the moment of conception baby is growing inside of you from the moment of conception that child becomes a part of you. So when you no longer have that part of you, you know you're waiting to say, hey, baby, and you know watch the child grow up and all of a sudden that's not there with you. That's a really hurtful and harmful thing to actually say to someone was at least you didn't get to know them. So please, as you're listening to this discussion, you know, hear, and not just hear, but understand the words that are being spoken by Nneka. She lived this. This isn't something that you know well. Hey, she went to sleep and she had a dream and this happened. She actually lived this, and because she lived this 15 years ago doesn't mean it goes away. This was something that will be with her for the rest of her life. She'll carry this baby with her for the rest of her life.

Speaker 1: 12:01

So if you know someone that recently lost a child or is going through and think they might miscarry or anything like that, be kind always. You never know. Maybe the woman can't have another baby, maybe the man that she's married to, or the boyfriend or whoever, maybe they can't have no more kids. We don't know a person's situation unless we actually ask. And I'm gonna be really honest. Sometimes it's none of our business. Really, sometimes it's none of our business. But if you wanna make it your business, make it your business out of kindness, not out of animosity, not out of okay. Well, I asked and I really don't know what to say. So you say something that you really shouldn't be saying, because that doesn't make it better, it makes it worse. So thank you for that Necklace. So thank you I'm bringing once again. I normally do and I will do it tonight.

Speaker 1: 13:00

Say be kind always, because we have to be kind always, but for this particular reason, I want to say, even before the end of the show be kind always. I also want to say, as we continue on with this and I should have said this earlier, before we started, and I didn't, but I do need to say this we are going to be touching upon a very delicate, delicate topic, very delicate, delicate topic. So, if you are not, you know, if you're of the mindset, well, you know what? I really can't hear it. Or maybe you're going through it yourself or you know someone, please. You know this will be podcast and it'll be available on Spotify or on YouTube. It'll be available in so many other places.

Speaker 1: 13:49

Take a listen to it, reach out to me and say, hey, sandra, I couldn't listen because my mindset just wasn't really there and it was a hard topic for me to listen or swallow and say, hey, sandra, when is that episode coming out on podcast?

Speaker 1: 14:04

Because I need to listen to it, but I feel more comfortable listening to it when it's just me and I'm in the right frame of mind to listen to it. But I do more comfortable listening to it when it's just me and I'm in the right frame of mind to listen to it. But I do want to listen to it, and I will let you know when and where you can find it on podcast. So, please, if this is a subject that's going to touch upon your nerves or your soul or anything your mind, please you don't have to listen today. This is going to be a topic that's hard to hear, but we need to hear it. With that being said, nneka, can you tell us how healthcare providers can better integrate compassion and cultural sensitivity when they're supporting families that are grieving, when they're supporting families that are?

Speaker 2: 14:50

grieving. Hire bereavement doulas, hire my pale advocates, definitely hire people because doctors don't have the capacity and, just like if I had a heart condition, I would not go see a podiatrist, a foot doctor. You need to go to people who have the experience in the topic, in the subject matter, the people who are trained to support these folks Because, honestly, it takes more than 10 minutes or 15 minutes, I don't know if I mentioned I met my new PCP last week and he was asking me questions and he looked in my record and said well, how many pregnancies have you had? And I said four. Oh, that's good, that's good. Oh, so tell me about your four children. And I could tell he wasn't listening because when I got to Aniyah he says to me oh, that's good, that's good. I said how is having a 39 week stillbirth good? And then that was a teachable moment for him and he'll never make that mistake again with me because I am now I've been advocating for years and that was either our first appointment or our last appointment and because of the response that he gave me after I schooled him, I realized that was going to be. It was going to be a long lasting relationship, because he finally did apologize and he made sure to listen, going forward.

Speaker 2: 16:34

Sometimes, when you're working with providers and someone told me this years ago, many providers, they're on the spectrum and that changes the way that the empathy works, changes the way that the empathy works. So there's no way, especially when and I'll never forget 15 years ago, yesterday I won't say today, because I actually gave birth to her the day after I found out she was gone, my provider, she did everything within her power to get me to agree to go home and come back a week and a day later for things to happen, naturally, and I went. She made the mistake of taking me into her office her actual office, not an exam room and I wouldn't leave that office until a bed became available. She was not able to do to me what she wanted to do and that was escape. She did everything within her power to run from that situation, but there was no place for me to run.

Speaker 2: 17:41

You'll notice, I hardly ever use trigger warnings. The reason why I don't use trigger warnings in my work, when sharing my work, when talking about this topic, is because I needed a trigger warning and did not get one. Those of us who go through it, we know each other because everybody who knows me. If you don't want to look at, if you don't, if you don't agree with it, don't look at my profile on Facebook or any of the other social media sites. But the reason why I choose not to use a trigger warning is because the rug was pulled right out from under me and they tried to soften the blow, but there was just no way to soften that blow. When they say I'm sorry, there's no heartbeat, there's nothing, well, what are you going to do? Are you going to restart it? Where are the paddles? What are you going to do? Can you re? Can you take? No, that is not what we do. So doctors need people who are trained to work with this demographic to soften the blow, and that's where the empathy comes in, not with them.

Speaker 1: 18:47

So what I'm hearing you say when you say that you know the empathy doesn't come with the doctors and you know is the fact that, like you just said, you need to hire and unfortunately there's been so many grant cuts, there's been so many different things that have gone on that you know, while doctors or hospitals might want to say, hey, let's go ahead and hire these people, I don't want to say these people, but let's go ahead and hire bereavement doulas, let's go ahead and hire maternal doulas, whatever we need to do, the money is just not there for them to actually hire on additional staff.

Speaker 1: 19:31

Are there courses and I know the providers are like Sandra, are you kidding me? Courses, you know how hard they're working us, because medicine today is not medicine. Medicine today is a business, and so of course, with this business comes additional responsibilities. And so here I am saying well, are there courses like professional development, courses that they can actually say hey, you know what, I'm going to hire you, but I'm going to recommend that you do X, y, z for continuing credit, so that you are well aware of how to treat patients when they come in, empathetically and sympathetically treat patients. Are there any courses like two or three that you could think of that would assist them with that.

Speaker 2: 20:38

Definitely, there are tons of courses. Of course. I want everyone to train with me.

Speaker 2: 20:43

I have a course that I created. That's actually it's a two-part series, along with my 300-plus page manual, but there are courses out there. The only thing and I don't ever, while I want everyone to train with me, the one thing that I will suggest is, if you are looking for a perinatal loss course, Google the person who created the course. Now, if you Google me, you'll see everything that I've done for the past 14 years. If you Google someone and you don't see their name pop up for anything they've done in this work, they are not the ones to train with. They may have the right hue based on your necessities, but that does not mean they know X, Y or Z. Dr Google is out here, and so is Mr GPT, whatever you call it, Mr AI and Miss, whatever else. That is not the way to create a course.

Speaker 2: 21:49

My course came from and I now teach. There are 20 courses that were born from that one course, which is 10 years. It was turned 10 this year, turned 10 a couple of months ago, and I edit my course. That's another thing. Data changes on a regular basis, so if they're still teaching the same information from 10 years ago, that's a problem. I make it a point to edit my course every year Around April. Everything is updated and it becomes. I add on new modules if needed. I change all of the data to reflect what's, and that's what you need to look at in taking any course, and you also have to look at what that person who's teaching is doing.

Speaker 2: 22:42

I was looking for a certification course that a friend of mine mentioned and I ended up getting a whole master's degree in a master's program when I was supposed to be going into somebody's MPH program. I'm where I need to be now that I'm in the coursework five courses in to a nine course program. But this is me, and now I'm also thinking about my PhD. You know I'm always looking for training. I'm always looking to improve. I'm always reading somebody's book, and it's not always not just new books. I read the old books because there are staples in this work that the information should never change and having that empathy piece in there. So you want to make sure that the person that you're learning from is truly knowledgeable and not just saying that they're knowledgeable.

Speaker 1: 23:38

Thank you so much for answering that question and the manner in which you answered it. What I do want to bring attention to, especially when it comes down to subjects such as maternal health and this is what all feels. But since we're talking about maternal health and loss tonight, what I do want to actually make sure that everyone knows, is that you are correct when you put someone's information in their name in. You should be able to see what work they've done, how much they've done, where they've done it at. What are the testimonials saying about their work? We are in a society right now that believes in skill-based hiring. What that means is as long as you can do the job, we're going to hire you. But what happens to the education that should be along with that skill? A lot of times, that's being overlooked. So when it comes to your health, the health of your baby, the health of your community, the health of your friends and family, when they are looking for a doctor, you want them to look for a doctor that has any clinician. You want them to find one that actually has. Not only do they have the skills where they can do this, but they also have the education that goes along with the skills. It shouldn't just be skills only.

Speaker 1: 25:07

And unfortunately, nneka, you are about the fifth person I've spoken to this week that's in a career-based field. That's in a field that's dealing with the public. That has told me Sandra, I don't know what has happened to these people that are in this field right now. They don't know, they don't want to know. It's like all we want to do is get our paycheck and then we want to go home. But if you're in a field and if you are one of the ones that are listening to this and they're in a field and you're doing a job just because you're getting a paycheck, please stop, because on the other end of that paycheck are real human beings. So you taking a job because it's actually paying you and you need money and you really are not educated enough to speak to the person or personally have a communication, a line of communication with them, you're in the wrong field.

Speaker 1: 26:02

You could do an AI search and it will tell you what you could do with your field and still be in healthcare without actually having a direct interaction with a patient. People that know me know that I do a lot with AI. I don't do a lot with AI because I'm trying to get it to replace my brain. I use a lot of AI because I'm trying to get it to generate ideas for me that I can work with or see how I can measure it up, so I can give it to somebody else that's interested in it and they can work with it. But please, if you're in a field that's dealing directly with patients, customers, whatever, and the only reason why you're in that field is not to learn what you can learn to make that person's life better, but to pick up a paycheck, please exit that field and find something else to do Really you can. Can I add one?

Speaker 2: 27:01

more. I've also noticed maternal health is a hot topic right now. So maternal health is a hot topic right now. So what I've noticed is that there are a lot of people getting upper level degrees and just sliding in without a lick of experience in the field, creating courses, creating doula courses, et cetera. Then you have the others who are, who don't have degree, the first who are paying for their doctorates. So there's a lot out there to be wary of. But the best, the best resume is not the one that the person sends you. It's at this point. It's those Google footprints.

Speaker 1: 27:48

Thank you so much for that. So my next question is this what role do you think or?

Speaker 2: 28:01

do you know that community networks and storytelling play in healing after infant loss? It validates. It validates the fact that, um, I know every instance and I've been in a couple of documentaries. I've done a lot of birth story slams. Whenever given the opportunity, I share, because nine times out of 10, but it's the one who you cannot see who speaks the loudest. So I love sharing all of their birth stories and being inclusive of all of those experiences, because they were all life experiences for me as their mom and for them as a people who were born. So being inclusive of and honoring all births is as long as the person's willing to share. Let them Don't put them over into the corner and talk about oh my goodness, they experienced a loss, so we can't invite them to this table. No, those are the people who need their stories told because their story could save a life let's talk about the future, what you see ahead.

Speaker 1: 29:29

What do you see as far as any changes or any programs that are on the horizon that you like, we really need to encourage? We really need to empower these people, and even for yourself, as you get ready to become dr neka j how, in another year or two, what programs would you like to either see, or that you currently see, that are on the horizon?

Speaker 2: 29:55

Well, of course I'm still working on getting my maternal health holistic care course, which is a little bit deeper because it's not just a six-week course and everyone wants quick and easy right now. So the right people are coming my way who need to be in the space at the time. But I see a lot more people going into public health because that's the foundation. I also see doulas being included as community health workers because that's what we do and that's who we are included as community health workers because that's what we do and that's who we are. I see communities being taught the old school way, you know, the way of our grandparents and great grandparents, where sister such and such is the one who's going to come over and take care of the new mom, regardless of whether she physically has a child there or not. I see us going back to grassroots community activism, where I cut my teeth on this work, and I see people going more into different disciplines surrounding physical health, because I see people learning sooner about their reproductive health.

Speaker 2: 31:16

See, pregnancy starts before you get pregnant. You know conditioning your body, eating correctly, learning about what conditions you might have. All of that needs to start before you even think about getting pregnant and understand that sometimes, when I mean in my instance, and this is something that shocked me my second pregnancy ended in my daughter requiring open heart surgery when she was two weeks of age and she's 20. She turned 20 last Friday and she's perfect. Well, she's healthy, mostly healthy, but the one who was healthy died. So, not trying to make meaning of any one situation, understanding that each birth deserves to be revered regardless of the outcome, and understanding that once you're pregnant then you're not your postpartum, so that person needs that support, and I see more courses driving those things home so that people can further understand what their bodies look like. It's a shame that my 10, soon to be 11 year old, knows more about her reproductive system than a person my age or yours, sandra.

Speaker 1: 32:38

It is and that becomes because of the fact that who her mother is is going to make sure of. You know what? I'm not going to let anybody tell you anything else. This is how this works, and so a lot of times, it rests on us, as mothers, to actually ensure that our children know at a very early age and, please, people, let's stop saying, okay, well, they're not old enough to learn about this, old enough to learn about this. What they're not going to understand is we have to start teaching our children at a very early age about their bodies, about mental and physical health. We need to actually start teaching them, because they're starting younger and younger to exhibit signs and symptoms of the fact that they were not taught and yet they still, you know. So here they are being taken advantage of because they were not taught, and that teaching starts at home. That's where that teaching starts. That teaching starts at home, whether it's mom, whether it's mom and dad, whether it's grandparents, whoever. That teaching starts at home, and we have to start them young, because we're in a time and age where the young ones are the ones that are all of this stuff is starting to happen with them and it's going to continue if they're not taught how anything else.

Speaker 1: 34:03

My last question for you is this what message would you share with mothers? I want to say mothers, but I want to ask you this because I don't want to leave the dads out because the dads a lot of times feel just as unheard, just as unseen as the mothers. And we do have some awesome dynamic dads out here and awesome dynamic men that truly care about the health of their woman in their life. They truly care about the health of all of their children. So what message would you leave for both the mom and dad who feel like they're unseen or unheard when they go through the process of grief of an infant?

Speaker 2: 34:52

Your community is waiting for you. There are so many wonderful groups out here waiting open-armed, ready to embrace you, ready to work with you and on grief's highway. And understand that what you're feeling today may not be what you will feel tomorrow. If anyone would have told me 15 years ago I remember my grandmother used to always say trouble don't last always. What I'm going to say is my twist on it.

Speaker 2: 35:24

Grief, yes, you can grieve for a long period of time. Grief yes, you can grieve for a long period of time, and there is something called prolonged grief. However, no one can tell you how to grieve. You can smile and still be grieving. I just love speaking my daughter's name, especially today on our birth date. Understand that you may feel really low today, but you may not feel that way tomorrow, and that's fine. I believe our children want us to live life and to enjoy a full life. So find the community. If you can't find a support group, reach out to me. I'm Nneka Hall on all social media sites and I look the same like this. This is me, this is actually me, and understand that. I will tell you about 50 to 60 groups that you can join today to walk with you on grief's journey, to walk with you on grief's journey.

Speaker 1: 36:29

And please don't forget, for those of you that are facing a grief journey, that no one can tell you how long you should be grieving for. They don't have the right to tell you how long you should be grieving for. So if you're in a situation where you're starting to hear you know things such as what Nneka was saying earlier oh, you can have another baby, oh, you already have kids you should start hearing all that negative talk. Just leave. You don't have to force yourself to be around anybody that's going to bring you into a space of negativity, into a space of okay. Well, you need to get over it right now, because they don't know where you've been, they don't know your journey. We can look at you and try to guess what your journey is, but we really don't know what your journey is. So you have every right to grieve for as long as you want to grieve. However, if you're grieving and you find yourself like this is like okay, I want to take my life, or you're so depressed and you're so out of it because of that grief loss, please seek mental health help. Find a therapist that you can talk to that will understand you. That will actually get you through to the next phase of it. Prior to Nemean Nneka coming on today, she was talking about a program, a course that she's taking in school right now that actually, finally, has given her a name to what she's been feeling. Find a course, find someone in your community that's been there before. But whatever you do, don't stop at the person that's saying I can help you. Yet they have no educational experience behind trying to help you. They just know that. Okay, somebody told me I was a good speaker and I could lead someone somewhere without having the education to match it. Don't take your education lightly. Study up on things and become acclimated to what you're learning. With that being said, I am going to go ahead and close out this very you know on point discussion, because we needed to hear it and we didn't need to hear it from someone that has never, ever went through before Could tell us. You know front and back what they're thinking, but they don't have that lived experience and some subjects and some topics that we'll be talking about when speaking with Sandra L, we have to have someone that has that lived experience, along with the personal experience. Maybe it was your wife that was going through it, but you're not the one that was carrying that baby and, like I said, as far as a man is concerned, he is important, very, very important in this whole process. But men, remember, inside that woman was that baby that didn't make it. So you're a great help to us, really you are, but inside of us, really sit down and have a deep, deep, deep discussion with us to find out, and don't just have it one time and say, okay, well, I did it. Have it repeatedly If you see the woman struggling. Have it repeatedly, because this is something that she's holding on to, that she's not letting go of, and you can help her let go of it and together you can grow.

Speaker 1: 39:57

Be kind always. It is absolutely positively free. You don't have to pay a penny for it, it's free. It's not something that somebody should have to force you to do. You should want to, in your own heart, feel like, okay, I need to be kind. You never know what that kindness might mean to someone on the other end of your discussion, might mean to someone on the other end of your discussion. If you don't know what to say, don't say anything, but be kind. You can be kind without saying something, especially if you don't know what to say, because sometimes what you say becomes an argument or it becomes you're turning someone off and you really don't want to do that. Be kind always, nneka. Do you have three things that you want us to leave out of here with?

Speaker 2: 40:58

Besides your, be kind. I love sitting in silence with someone who suffered a loss. Sitting in silence with someone who suffered a loss, so be silent so that the people that you're supporting will be heard. And back to Sandra's be kind. Kindness goes a long way, especially when a person is feeling at their worst.

Speaker 1: 41:27

Thank, you for having me. Thank you, and thank you for spending your birthday with us. Tom's appreciates you. Happy birthday.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 41:38

You're welcome.

Speaker 2: 41:45

Can't hear you, can't hear you.

Speaker 1: 41:49

Thank you all For taking some more time to spend with speaking with Sandra L. We're hoping that you learned something about the patient experience when it comes down to maternal and infant loss. We will be back on September 8th. Have a very safe and happy Labor Day for those of you that are listening to this before Labor Day arrives. Thank you.