The Final Cut
The Final Cut is a bold and insightful podcast exploring the latest in film and television. Hosted by Professor John Cook and filmmaker Charlotte Bjuren, each episode dives into new releases, classic gems, and the stories shaping screen culture today.
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The Final Cut
Behind the Masks: African Storytelling and Cosmic Music
Step into the TARDIS as we journey from the vibrant markets of Lagos to the dazzling stages of an intergalactic Eurovision in our analysis of Doctor Who's groundbreaking fifth and sixth episodes. These stories aren't just adventures in time and space—they're cultural landmarks that showcase the extraordinary vision of Shuti Gatwa's Doctor.
"The Story and the Engine" marks a historic milestone—the first Doctor Who episode penned by a black male writer and featuring an almost entirely black cast. We unpack how Inua Ellams transforms a Nigerian barbershop into a celebration of African storytelling traditions, exploring the episode's theatrical origins and its fascinating departure from the show's typically science-based approach. The Doctor's acknowledgment of his black identity creates powerful new dimensions to the character we've known for sixty years.
Meanwhile, "The Interstellar Song Contest" delivers a spectacle worthy of Eurovision itself, with Disney+ production values elevating the visuals to cinematic heights. But beneath the glitter lies a darker political allegory about oppressed peoples denied cultural expression. We examine how this episode—cleverly scheduled before the actual Eurovision broadcast—uses music as both weapon and healing force, while taking the Doctor to morally ambiguous territory we rarely see.
Both episodes reveal how Doctor Who has evolved into something profoundly personal, with themes and settings shaped around Gatwa's identity and interests. The reintroduction of classic elements—including the return of the Doctor's granddaughter Susan after nearly 60 years and the villainous Time Lord known as the Rani—shows Russell T Davies balancing innovation with reverence for the show's rich history.
What does this new direction mean for the future of Doctor Who? Join our conversation to explore how this iconic series is becoming more politically engaged than ever before, creating memorable television that tackles contemporary issues through the lens of science fiction. Share your thoughts on these episodes—we'd love to hear your perspective!
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Spotlights fade, the curtains rise, new stories waiting behind our eyes, charlotte and John with the final say, breaking down the screens in their own way. This is the final cut, where the real reviews ignite. Wings of hope are pulling through.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of Final Cut, and I'm also I'm joined here with my host, co-host, professor John Cook, from Glasgow Caledonian University, and today we're going to talk about episode five and six of Doctor who, and it's called the Story and the Engine and the Interstellar Song Contest. So to start with, so how did you find out? How did you like the episodes?
Speaker 1:Well, hello there everybody and welcome to another exciting episode of our Doctor who Season 2 review. So yeah, these two episodes, it's quite useful to speak to them, speak about them together the Story and the Engine, episode 5, and the Interstellar Song Contest, episode 6. And the reason I think that they're linked is really through star power, the star, shuti Gatwa, of the star of doctor who, because they both episodes in many ways reflect and are sort of modeled in around his own image and the things that he's interested in. So the story in the engine is set in africa and shuti gatwa has um, although he has hybrid lineage, he he was brought up in Scotland but he is of Rwandan heritage. And then the Interstellar Song Contest and maybe we can touch on this in more depth as the podcast goes on I think is really an allegory for Palestine and Shudy Gatwa has strong feelings about the situation, about the plight of the Palestinians. So both episodes really interesting, fascinating, and let's get into a bit more depth on them.
Speaker 2:So for our viewer from abroad here, we just need to explain that the Eurovision Song Contest is a contest where you compete in music and you have songs from about 12 to 14 countries all competing to be the sort of top song.
Speaker 2:Each country is represented with one song and they're mostly European countries, but more recently you also had Australia and Israel and some other countries join, and in the past you always used to sing in your own language, but now a lot of the songs seem to be in English and they have various finals and then it becomes a semifinal and then the top final is normally in the host country of the winner from last year, and there, and then on the night, the big night when everyone is tuning in from all, all over Europe and sometimes all over the world, the winner is sort of crowned ground.
Speaker 2:But yes and but. However, we start with a story in Indian, who's indeed set in Africa, and it's about a barber shop where the barber has gone a bit wild and kidnapped his clients, so to speak, or his people coming in for haircuts, and my first question is then so it's a lot about story, and of course I can imagine sort of African storytelling and storytelling as a whole. So how did you think this concept of storytelling? How effective was it to use the plot device and the thematic element?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the strength of the episode, I think, was the emphasis on storytelling and a really interesting setting for this episode. So it's set in a barber's shop in Africa I think it's actually in Lagos and the idea is that it plays into a key aspect of black male culture, which is going to the barber where men can gather together and tell stories. Black writer with links to Nigeria, who in 2017 had a hit play in England called the Barbershop Chronicles, and essentially what has been done is the setting of that play in a barbershop, where a bunch of black males gather and swap stories and anecdotes is transplanted into Doctor who, so that suddenly we get a science fiction element to it. And, in actual fact, the setting in Lagos has the same cast that appeared, I think, with one exception that appeared in the stage version, the Barbershop Chronicles. So it's a very interesting hybrid episode this one exception that appeared in the stage version, the Barbershop Chronicles. So it's a very interesting hybrid episode, this, where it's sort of melding a theatre play setting with, you know, a typical Doctor who science fiction spin in it.
Speaker 1:So I think the strengths of the episode are the emphasis on storytelling and a very interesting setting for a Doctor who story, one that's never been explored before. Another great strength is the virtually all-black cast. I think, with the exception of a flashback scene, all the actors who appear in the episode are of colour, and so I think that's definitely a first for Doctor who. I mean quite shocking in a way, that it's only since 2018 that we've started to see black writers write for Doctor who or be invited to write for Doctor who. In fact, inua Ellams is the first black male to have contributed a Doctor who script.
Speaker 2:The previous three have been black females, so, in that sense, story in the engine, a very groundbreaking episode for doctor who I must say I was really impressed by the set of whether, how they I mean you almost feel as if you're transported into nigeria, to a market there, to a bustling market. It was not after seeing um doctor who's unleash where you could understand that this was all set was actually you almost thought that the production team had gone on a trip to Africa. So what do you think of the setting? How significant is the setting that the narrative logs Nigeria? Is it that they want to? Is it that they wish to portray African culture, do you think? Or is it to wanting to enhance African culture, do you think? Or is it wanting to enhance it to a bigger audience? Or why do you think they choose Nigerian-African?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, again I come back to star power. I think, although Russell T Davis is the showrunner of Doctor who, the show, you know, doctor, who has always modeled itself around the star, uh, the star actor playing the doctor, uh to um, you know, essentially have stories that reflect um, his particular kind of interests and in a way, so that that will make something interesting and and more powerful for the screen. I mean a trivial example, um, far more trivial than the issues we're discussing today, is the fifth doctor. Peter davidson was a big cricket fan, uh, so what do you know? Suddenly, in doctor who, back in the early 80s, the Doctor suddenly has his cricket garb and in several episodes or different stories he's suddenly revealed to have a great love of English cricket. So it's that idea of modelling around the star and reflecting the image of the star.
Speaker 1:Now, in this case, far more profoundly, you have the first Doctor, its first black doctor, and one key line, which I think is done rather effectively at the start of the episode to explain suddenly that the doctor appears in Nigeria, is the idea that he talks to his companion Belinda, saying that he acknowledges that he's the first doctor to inhabit a black body following all these regenerations and therefore feels more comfortable within black culture, because there are still places in the world many places that are racist and where he feels slightly different. So that immediately sets up a story context for why the Doctor would feel so comfortable within black African culture. So the setting works well. The episode, I think, has met with quite high praise from a range of different critics and I felt that there was a lot of strong aspects to the episode. However, at the same time, I did have reservations, things that I thought were a little bit not really fitting within the Doctor who context, and I'm happy to go into these if you want a bit more, charlotte.
Speaker 2:Sure. I must say, though, before, that the gentleman played the barber. I thought he was kind of fantastic and what came out of. My next question is how do you think the doc's interaction with the barber and Abene in this revealed different facets of his character, especially regarding past action and the consequences?
Speaker 1:And also, please do tell us about things you felt maybe also a bit out of place yeah, um, so the, the setting of the barber shop, a fascinating new angle for us to explore in doctor who and the power of storytelling. But at the same time, to me anyway, um, uh, it felt a little bit too much like a theatre play Once you were in that barbarous setting. There was a long scenes of just you know, a bunch of characters trapped in that setting. So in that sense it wasn't very televisual, it was very dialogue led. Another key weakness that I felt, perhaps arising out of the writer's background in theatre, was there's a classic line or lore in screenwriting show not tell. So you know, rather than describe things and give the audience verbal cues, you actually show it. And give the audience verbal cues, you actually show it.
Speaker 1:But in this episode there was an awful lot of what Austin Powers used to call basil exposition, a lot of expository dialogue telling us about things that we couldn't possibly know until people essentially explained this plot to us. And I have to say, you know, watching it and I watched it with my 14-year-old son, who's an avid Doctor who fan, as you know, charlotte and he, like me, couldn't really understand it the first time. It needed a second watch to be able to actually understand it and appreciate it. So that is maybe a weakness with this particular episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I agree with that and I also sometimes I agree that I thought also the story was a bit too predictable. However, um, I just wonder, I think I wonder if the reason why they had to explain so much was because, actually, that it was quite loosely based on this play, so that if you had seen the play you might have understood better what the reference was, so that they sort of had to fill in the backstory for the audience. I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think. From what I understand, anyway from what I've read of the barbershop chronicles, the play is actually set in the uk and explores sort of black male culture in the uk. So I think it's only really the setting and many of the cast who appeared in that stage version who've been recruited to play in doctor who. But, um, no, the story itself is about mythology and it's about the power of storytelling. So in that sense it's a different concept and premise to the barbershop chronicles, albeit linked by this idea of black men telling stories to each other. But it's about, you know, it's the story in the engine. It's a science fiction plot about the gods of storytelling needing to be fed. But that touches on another key weakness that I thought personally, that maybe hasn't been brought out by other critics and commentators that I've heard, which is this notion that at one point in the episode the doctor says you know you cannot sever the links between humans and gods. You know humans need their gods.
Speaker 1:And I thought to myself this is very strange for doctor who in terms of the the 60 year history of the show, because the doctor has always been a man and very occasionally a woman of science.
Speaker 1:Uh, where, if, if the doctor in the past had encountered supernatural aspects, it would be ultimately explained as some evil villain trying to put fear into the hearts of their victims. But in fact, in the end, science and rationality figure it out. Here we had a Doctor very much in tune with African culture but at the same time in a sense saying that humans need their gods and that the god you know they need to have a relationship with the supernatural and superstition, and that seemed a little bit off to me in terms of the 60-year history of Doctor who. So this touches on aspects which I think is true of both the episodes that we're reviewing today, of aspects of the show that are kind of slightly jarring in terms of the history of Doctor who Very strong episodes and very interesting stories and revelations and plots. But having that, whether it fits into the Doctor who mythos, perhaps the Russell T Davis should he get what you know, is taking us too far away from the way that the Doctor has traditionally been written.
Speaker 2:But could it not be? I don't know, it may be my kind of guessing, but could it not be? I don't know, maybe my kind of guessing, but could it be that Disney could have an influence there, because Disney in the story they have a lot of gods and it's a lot about mythology. I just wondered if they were trying to sort of link it up with Disney kind of mythology. Maybe just a guess. Anyway, I wanted to go on and move on to talk about the production design, because that was another thing I thought was great. So we know that the barbershop here is both sort of familiar but also a spaceship. So how do you think the production design contributed to this duality and what do you think challenges it to?
Speaker 1:Well, the production design is great. I mean on both. You've talked about disney, on both, um, this episode, an interstellar song contest, um, fantastic production design. When we move outside of the barber shop, uh, and see actually that the barber shop is being carried on the back of a giant sort of scary robot spider, um, no expense has been spared in that respect, and you know. To come back to your point about Disney, that's a very interesting point. You know about Disney and mythology and so on.
Speaker 1:It is certainly the case that Russell T Davis has announced that the Doctor who is moving more into the fantasy realm in these two seasons, the Shurigatwa era, than straight science fiction. There are some straight science fiction stories, but a lot of it is more fantastical. But it's explained by the idea that, as happened in an episode in the David Tennant specials called Wild Blue Yonder, that the Doctor has inadvertently let gods into our universe. But I don't have an objection to that, but it's the idea that the doctor himself would somehow say that that we need our gods, and and to me that that seemed a little bit off, uh. But yeah, absolutely agree, the production design, uh, is first rate okay.
Speaker 2:So how do you okay? So, if that often, how do you this? How do you think this episode fit with the broader content of dr who's exploration of identity and mythology? Because I feel that there has been quite a lot of talks about gods recently, but in terms of um remember we had god of lights and god of that's, yeah, oh, yes, there's, the gods are invading the universe and I think we're about to.
Speaker 1:that's going to reach a crescendo in episodes seven and eight, which is the two-part season finale for season two of this reboot-y Doctor who. The two episodes are Wishworld, which is coming up on May, the 24th in terms of original release date, followed by the final episode, the finale. So the reality war, it's called. So yeah, it's happening and the gods are around, and so the theme of the gods is consistent. It was just the way in which the Doctor dealt with it.
Speaker 1:But moving on, there's also in this episode the introduction of the fugitive doctor, uh, a return of of an old character, again fitting very much within the black cast theme, because the fugitive doctor as revealed in the chris chibnall era is a sort of predecessor to what we originally thought was the first doctor played by will William Hartnell in the 1960s. But again, there seemed a giant plot hole there for me, because the Doctor seemed to remember meeting a character as the Fugitive Doctor, but the idea, or the original premise anyway, was that the Fugitive Doctor had been blocked out of the Doctor's memory. So again, there was a giant plot hole there. So it suggests a slight disregard for the canon of the show at the moment. This also continues into the Interstellar Song Contest, which we can perhaps move on to. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So just before we move on, there's a final question. So what has been the critical and audience response to this episode and what does it indicate about the direction of the series? So I felt that when what I came across was that maybe not super positive response, but how did you use, what did you read and what did you find out?
Speaker 1:but the audience reaction well, I think, in terms of pure ratings, there was a slight bounce, um from I about 1.5 million in UK viewers. This is viewers in the UK on overnight ratings. So this is not counting streaming ratings yet, which is yet to be totaled up and released publicly anyway, but I'm talking about overnight ratings. So so doctor who, as we've touched on before is, is troughing with with very low overnight television ratings, this show had a slight bounce of about sort of 90 000 viewers, I think, uh, to about 1.59 million. However, the interstellar Song Contest gained another million viewers, suggesting that well, we can perhaps come on to why in a minute. So that's been the raw ratings data. But in terms of critical and audience reaction, as I said earlier, the story in the engine has been very favorably received.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, let's move on then to Interstellar Song Contest, and, as a Swede, I was really excited to remember. Well, I didn't remember, but the reminiscence of Abba in the 1974 winning this Eurovision Song Contest with Waterloo. However, yes, I thought it was, I was really looking forward to this episode and it didn't disappoint. I thought it was great. However, what was your first reaction to the Interstellar Song Contest? Did it capture the spirit of Doctor who and Eurovision? Did you think?
Speaker 1:Well, it was certainly a lot of fun and we need to explain to perhaps our listeners and viewers who are outside the UK. Charlotte, at the very beginning you set up a very good introduction of what the eurovision song contest is, but, um, the key fact with this episode of doctor who is that it was aired in the uk on on bbc, uh, just before the eurovision song contest went out live at 8 pm. Uh, saturday night, saturday the 17th of May. So Doctor who was shown 50 minutes earlier, starting at 10 past seven, and so the episode had been conceived as being an episode that would precede the Eurovision Song Contest and, in that sense, provide a sort of Eurovision night for BBC television. Now, there was a little bit of a worry on the production team's part because, prior to, doctor who would have to be junked from the the schedules and um moved to another um BBC channel. Um, fortunately for the team, that did not happen because the FA Cup final finished on cue at the right time, which allowed this episode to air, um, exactly as planned, 50 minutes before the Eurovision Song Contest.
Speaker 1:So it's a hammock between two live events and, in terms of our ratings discussion, that explains why it got a bounce of a million viewers. So it's called. In the TV industry it's called hammocking, where you have two successful programs, in this case two live events, and you put a program in the middle and that program will both gain from those who had tuned into the FA Cup final and it also gains from those who are beginning to switch on to get ready for Eurovision. So I think that, rather than necessarily the intrinsic quality of the episode accounts for the ratings bounds of a million viewers.
Speaker 2:But coming back to my second question, do you think that the episode in itself which I thought was great really entertaining, but do you think it captures the spirit of both, the spirit of Doctor who and Eurovision?
Speaker 1:Certainly captures the spirit of Eurovision, although with quite a dark political story underlying it and again coming back, I think, to Shuti Gatwa's support of the Palestinian cause. In terms of your question about Doctor who fitting in with the canon, it was very much with this episode. Yes and no. It seemed what they were doing was introducing old characters from the past of the show the villain, the Rani, which is revealed at the very end of the episode, so spoilers, but that is an old Doctor who villain that is returning to be the big bad, if you like, of this particular season.
Speaker 1:And also, for me, most poignantly and I'm just amazed they've never done this sooner they've brought back the Doctor's granddaughter from the original William Hartnell era, who is making, at the very least, a cameo in this particular episode. The actress herself is now 80 years old, so we've got this rather ironic um juxtaposition of an elderly lady playing the granddaughter of um, a young black actor. So that's that's kind of interesting, uh. So, yeah, it's very much within the the canon. But to me, though, there was quite a lot of lurches of tone in this episode, including in the Doctor's character, which I felt was a little bit. The episode seemed a little bit all over the place in that respect.
Speaker 2:So the episode playfully riffs on Eurovision. How do you, what do you think this Doctor who episode says about the importance of music, and particularly in the spectacle, in popular culture, this idea that the role of you know, artists and music has in popular culture, this idea that the role of you know, artists and music has in popular culture.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, I think the episode is a celebration of Eurovision in that sense, particularly its resonance in, certainly, the last couple of decades. It's embraced, you know's embrace, you know gay culture has embraced it and um, it's certainly true that um, with, uh, you know, a gay actor in in the main role of doctor, who in a gay showrunner that there is, you know, the lgbtq plus um feeling of this, you know, iteration of doctor who has never been stronger. So, for example, you had in this current episode a gay couple that suddenly got roped into the Doctor's adventures and what have you. So the Eurovision, I think, was celebrated in that sense. But coming back to the darkness of it, we also had, underlying it, russell T Davies' pitch to the writer of this particular episode, a person called Juno Dawson, was this, and it kind of sums up the episode. He said what I want is for you to write an episode in which Eurovision meets Die Hard, and so what we have is a terrorist figure taking over the control gallery of this supposed contest that has now spread beyond Eurovision to the whole galaxy as the Interstellar Song Contest and it's taken over.
Speaker 1:But it's in that element of the terrorist that we begin to get quite political, and it is very much you know.
Speaker 1:The idea that we begin to get quite political, and it is very much you know it's the idea that there has been a race that's been whose culture and land has been devastated by a corporate invading force is the premise of the show and that they are denied a voice and not allowed to participate really in most parts of not only the song contest but the wider culture of this particular futuristic era.
Speaker 1:And it's absolutely no stretch to see that as an allegory for Israel taking part and has taken part in the Eurovision Song Contest of the 1970s, but that in recent decades there's been a lot of criticism about the fact that why is Israel in the Eurovision Song Contest? You know, shouldn't we, you know, shouldn't there be solidarity with the Palestinian people, etc? And so you have the corporation that's trying to, in the episode, keep the lid on all of this in a way directly echoing the way in which the organisers of Eurovision Song Contest in recent years have tried to manage the situation in such a way that it doesn't become a kind of political event, even though by default it effectively is.
Speaker 2:Well, I sort of agree with the interpretation, but when I saw it I actually agree with the interpretation. But when I saw it I also thought about other sort of interpretations that are to do with other terrorist attacks. I mean, if you think about the attack on Ariana Grande and some attacks that have been in concert halls in Germany, similar where there has been kind of an event and then but yes, it has suddenly been growing much more darker and perhaps more depressing aspect. But moving on then. But I also want to touch on the LATP aspect, of course not related to this, but one thing I did like with this episode was that the gay couple wasn't brought in as a gay couple. Instead, they were kind of just brought in as a couple and then you realize they were gay afterwards. Yes, yes, they were less of a token.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, that's true that it was more subtext. Um, you know, it just happened to be two men's, sort of right, I think the subtext was. You know one point, I think one of them says oh, I would follow you anywhere, doctor. Uh, so you're right, it's a gay subtext. Um, uh, no, you know, the children's audience might not necessarily have picked up on that aspect about the two men.
Speaker 2:How do you think the format of a music contest shaped the narrative of the structure compared to a more traditional that, using this as a? I mean, I thought it was quite for me. I thought it was quite interesting making that as a device of a music contest, but obviously it's quite different to what normally shows would observe. How did you think? Do you think that was an effective part of it?
Speaker 1:Yes, well, music is increasingly coming into the, the new Russell T Davies iteration of Doctor who with Shidi Gatwa. So we had, for example, bon Afaeri singing and dancing in the season one, episode two. I think it was the devil's chord in which people burst into song. We've also had song featured in the introduction of Shuti Ghat was the doctor, which was the Christmas special. The church on Ruby Road we had in the I think it was in the hall of the goblins there was a singer and interestingly yeah, so the person that I think it was in the Hall of the Goblins there was a singer and, interestingly, oh, yes, yeah that was yeah.
Speaker 1:So the person that sung that actually comes back in this episode heavily disguised as an alien and sings. So bringing music into Doctor who is something I think that has been an aspiration of Russell T Davis. But in this case, you know, music is being used as the way in which to resolve problems. That's the theme of it, I think. So the terrorist is defeated because he tries to use violence, whereas there is one character who is a singer in the contest who, as the episode goes on, reveals herself to be actually one of these aliens, helion. She had hidden her identity, but through the power of song she's able to move the entire audience and to recognize the plight of the helion people.
Speaker 1:Um, at the same time, you know you could have a counter reading and say well, does that mean that that, um, it's all? Just um, just, the only platform she has for political protest is through music and she cannot do anything else. So you could read that as being slightly odd, dodgy politics. You know that ultimately, the only way that people respond is through song, but it doesn't actually change anything. But certainly within the episode I think it's set up that violence is wrong. However justified. Your cause, your political cause, violence in this case. I think the terrorist wants to kill three trillion people and instead, what you must do is participate in the conventional structures in order to try and bring about change through culture and dialogue.
Speaker 2:So maybe that at the Eurovision the music brings them together. I actually thought that when she sang the Helenine song although not, I know, we don't understand a word of what you're saying I thought it was pretty, very moving. It was very kind of strong, because it must be quite difficult to sing a song, you know, in a kind of completely alien language. But yes, that was a moving. So maybe. But coming back to this about songs and music, so how did you think that the anthems uses sound ways to feed on emotion and life force? How does that fit into the classic doctor who villain archetype? But also this for the fact that they're using sound ways, given coming back to the previous previous two episodes where they were the lux, where they used light, I mean it's like uh, yes, it's going to connect the episodes a bit, I think.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's an interesting point. You know the elemental aspects. You know we're getting quite basic territory here. You know light and now sound.
Speaker 1:Sound ultimately being used, trying to be used for evil purposes, and that's defeated by the Doctor, but alternatively, sound being used positively through the singing of the song in the contest. It did strike me. I mean it's entirely likely. Although I don't know the exact timelines, it's entirely likely that this episode was conceived and written after Ukraine in 2022, just after the invasion of their country won the Eurovision Song Contest of that year. So I wouldn't be surprised if there's a little bit of a Ukrainian subtext going in there as well, about a land being invaded and being destroyed and the Song Contest ultimately being used as a platform to draw attention to that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so it's not necessarily all Palestinian issues, but I think it is important to realise that the star of this show now, shuri Gatwa, is a strong Palestinian supporter and, revealingly, when Israel qualified through the semifinals to appear in the final of the Eurovision Song Contest last Saturday, shudy Gat was originally down to announce the results of the UK jury, which is a great tradition where, you know, stars from different countries appear to represent their country, and Shudy was down to do that and as soon as Israel qualified he pulled out.
Speaker 1:He hasn't given his reasons, but it's highly speculated it's because he didn't want to be in the awkward position that if, say, israel had won the eurovision song contest, they didn't, they came second. Um. So it's very important to realize that um, there's a strong palestinian subtext to this, um, this episode, and again I come back to my point at the start that in both of these episodes we've reviewed the, the story in the engine and the interstellar song contest. There are strong cultural political themes that very much reflect and mirror the current star of the show and what he's interested in.
Speaker 2:Sure, I guess we have to say that this is speculation, but I also think that, yeah, I agree, as I said, it could be that, but it could also be an oppressed, like an oppressed, any sort of oppressed nation as a metaphor of a wider theme of an oppressed nation, like.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you take, bring for example, sweden with the, uh, native population, by the, the boar, um, by the other part of the population, do you see what I mean? And uh, and in, but moving back, coming back then to the episode, if we look at just the quality of episode itself, so how did you find episodes, visual and musical creativity, in terms of costume performance, and I think I was really impressed, I mean, when I saw this, um, dr who, um, sorry, the, the, the companion show, um, when they talked about the fact that they had to create all the music and they all created all the, the costumes, and I must say I was it was really impressive To me. It very much looked, even though it was alien, it looked very much like, you know, something that could have passed for Eurovision.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and you know the special effects. This is where you know Disney has really upped the ante in terms of the budget. I mean the, the sequence where um the doctor, along with most of the audience of the of the interstellar song contest, finds himself blown out into space where they have to float around and I think it's in this in the story, it's supposed to be about 150 000 people you, you actually do see, you know a massive body, you know the special effects is almost well, pretty much is movie quality now yeah.
Speaker 1:So that is, you know, no question, it was a very strong episode visually and in that sense it was more of a visual episode than the bulk of the story and the engine.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, no, the show is. You know, there's some aspects where I have reservations about both episodes, but there's no question that this run of Shitty Gatway episodes is probably, episode per episode, stronger than season one and certainly a range of very interesting stories and characters that now set us up nicely for the two-part finale. The Wishworld is coming up, followed by the finale on May the 31st, when it's first released, called the Reality War, and in this, as I've said earlier, we have the return of the Raniani, a villain that hasn't been seen in doctor, who, I think since 1989, um, a sort of female version of the master, a sort of villainous time lord time lady um, and, as I say you know, phenomenally, the return of susan, the original companion to the, the original doctor, um, and, as I say, I can't believe. You know, I felt sorry for the lady that she'd been kept out of doctors for so long, I think, uh and it wasn't the party, until the party, that they realized they could bring her in.
Speaker 1:That's right apparently russell t. She met russell t davis at a party um, and I just thought you know they must bring her back, because I mean time is marching on and I mean that story has been unresolved since 1965, I think whatever happened to Susan the actress herself has appeared in a cameos, in a couple of sort of multi-doctor episodes, shall we say, but it's never been satisfactorily explained what happened to her. So I presume that in the two episodes coming up we're finally going to learn what happened to the Doctor's granddaughter.
Speaker 2:But bringing back the companions. How did you think this setting allowed the Doctor's personality and her relationship with his companions? How did it work with Belinda in this episode and how did you think Belinda performed, and in terms of yeah.
Speaker 1:Belinda is in Interstellar Song Contest. Belinda plays a very important part because she reminds the Doctor of the need for compassion. Now this touches on one of the need for compassion. Now this touches on one of the aspects where I felt there was a lot of lurching of the character and indeed the tone of this episode. So the Doctor suddenly we're led to believe because he's been ejected into space and almost dies through being frozen, before, in a very bizarre way, rescuing himself it would take too long to describe how he manages to get back into the contest. But after that he suddenly becomes villainous himself. He says I've had a little bit of ice in my heart, he tells the terrorist, and at one point about the end of the episode he starts to torture the terrorist.
Speaker 1:Now we've seen the dark side of the Doctor before, but I don't think we've ever seen the Doctor lurch into genuine evil. And certainly there are elements of that torture sequence that are quite strong. I believe the writer of the episode asked Russell T Davis, you know, can I go darker? And Russell T Davis said sure, can I go darker? And Russell T Davis said sure, you know, make it go even darker, but there is a danger that in so doing you kind of weaken the character of the doctor and his presence as a force for good in the universe, and in this episode it's only Belinda's intervention that reminds that in fact he needs to show compassion. So a lot of latching around, quite a light episode, the Interstellar Song Contest on one level with Eurovision, and quite fluffy and some fun. Then you've got this dark political subplot and then you've got this dark turn in the Doctor as well.
Speaker 2:So it was definitely an episode of contrasts yeah, I must say I was a bit shocked about that, and particularly, you know, the doctor is a role model for children and yeah, yeah, so that was funny, and also the fact that they wondered about this, that with the eyes, and does it suddenly go darker? Um, yeah, however, can I just ask you so do you think this episode, one thing that kind of, was in our back of the mind? Do you think it was made for dr, for dr who fans or fans of eurovision or both, and I sort of wondered, do you think it was a chance here, like to kind of tease in eurovision Labo, to look at Doctor who?
Speaker 1:Yeah, in a way. I mean Doctor who's under Russell T Davis has always ridden these two different ponies. In one sense, you're obviously making it for the established audience, but you want that audience to grow and of course one of the great concerns, I guess, of the Shudigatwa run is that that audience has not been growing. It's not even been level. It's effectively declined to a sort of you know um, a sort of low point of about 1.5 million overnight um viewers per episode, with maybe another 500 000 catching up on streaming. That I'm talking purely in the uk terms, because disney Plus does not release its global streaming figures, unfortunately. It would be interesting to find out.
Speaker 1:So the so we've, we've got those issues and so, yeah, of course, putting it, you know, bringing Eurovision in might bring a new audience to Doctor who, but I do feel that in many ways it's it's the. The strong LGBTQ plus theme thematic that now runs through this iteration of Doctor who means that it's a bit of a no-brainer for them to bring in Doctor who, bring in Eurovision to Doctor who. Yeah, because both are seen as British television institutions or institutions that the BBC have traditionally. In the case of Eurovision, you know, bbc were one of the pioneer countries in setting up Eurovision. I know the British often disparage the contest but in fact you know it is a British television institution, just as much as Doctor who is and has been.
Speaker 2:Well, in Sweden, eurovision is very much loved. It's a big sort of family celebration. Everyone sits in front of the television. However, my final question here then where do you think Interstellar Songkot sits in the broader tradition of musical and high concept episode in Doctor who? Do you think it kind of fits in, or is it slightly odd? How did you think the episode is? Well, it fits in.
Speaker 1:Actually one of my fears going into the Interstellar Song Contest was I hope they don't all sing and dance again, because I felt that had been done in the Devil's Core. It was an interesting episode. Season one, episode two, it would be repeating themselves to have another song and dance spectacular, but actually the. Instead, music is used um, you know, um within the story and what's called diegetically uh, so that in that sense it's um, it's motivated by the plot and the setting of the song contest. So, um, in that sense it wasn't too jarring. It was within the tradition of Doctor who of visiting alien worlds that have some relationship to our own current present, in some ways perhaps similar to an episode called Bad Wolf from an original Christopher Eccleston run of the rebooted Doctor who, which I think was episode 12 of the first season, where the Doctor lands with his then companion Rose in some kind of futuristic reality TV show that seems to be quite oddly modelled on.
Speaker 2:Big.
Speaker 1:Brother, the worldwide current reality franchise. So again it fits in with that tradition of Doctor who riffing off current television and extrapolating it way into the future.
Speaker 2:Well, I thought it would have been more alien dance. I sort of missed kind of most alien figures been dancing. But hey-ho, Is there anything else you wanted to add to our viewer before we leave today?
Speaker 1:No, I think we've had a good old chat about this and covered the main points. All I would say really is that this is all by way of prelude to the two final episodes of this season of Doctor who Wishworld and Reality War and I'm sure we'll be back soon to review both of those episodes and give our final thoughts on this very interesting second season of the Shutey Gatwa era.
Speaker 2:Well, with that, thank you very much for following us here and in this episode and, as always, please subscribe or follow our channels and also, if you do have any questions or anything you would say, please text us and otherwise we see you next week and thank you.
