Big Brothaz of Destruction podcast

Why Babyfaces are BORING right now

• Itsthemazoku and SwagSwitcha • Season 2 • Episode 68

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Babyfaces are supposed to be the people we root for, so why do they keep making choices that would get any normal person laughed out of the room? We get into the growing frustration that WWE, AEW, and TNA “good guys” keep walking into obvious traps, turning down help, and trusting the same villains who have already burned them. When the hero never learns, the crowd doesn’t feel inspired, we feel played. 

We start with Cody Rhodes and the difference between a fully formed character and a performer being asked to play the pure definition of a babyface. From there we zoom out into the landscape: heel groups are strategic, the audience is savvy, and the old Superman template doesn’t hit the same without mind games or adaptation. We also talk Sami Zayn’s long, slow shift and how fan reactions change when a story hints at selfish choices without fully committing to a turn. 

On the TNA side, we debate Mike Santana’s reign and why a real, emotional comeback story still needs booking that makes the champion feel dangerous, prepared, and star level. We hit AEW’s “fighting champion” habits too, including open challenges and the tension between tournaments and sudden title shots. Then we take a fun detour into Lucha Underground memories and the hard truth about how contracts and business goals can shape what we see on screen. 

If you’ve been asking why modern wrestling heroes feel less believable, this conversation is for you. Subscribe for more, share this with a friend who argues about booking, and leave us a review. What’s one change you’d make to fix babyfaces right now?

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Intro And New Nicknames

SPEAKER_03

Because we raised the prices of deceit.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to another episode of the Big Brothers of Destruction podcast. Too boy, it's the Monster Cool.

SPEAKER_03

And it's your boy, Swag Switch in the Building, Tiger.

SPEAKER_04

And making a special appearance, it's your boy, the Champagne Don ReZeon. And yes, we are exhausted.

SPEAKER_00

Oh boy. First off, you would be a special guest. Remember, second episode, you're part of the family, bro. You can go to- To be fair, I kind of already rated the. But um, I have also started coming up with other monikers like yourself. Let's go. Um, so first off, is uh monsters are not born.

SPEAKER_01

They are released. He is too big to deny true strongs to stop. Suko is musk. Okay, okay, I can see it. I can see it. All right, no, no, that's that's that's if you got somebody like Dela Rosa saying that on the mic.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. That's uh no, that's solid.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was the only reason why I said I tried to do that clip of us and everything, and I was like, all right, because you saw it. Like that was the thing. So I created that and I was like, nope. But anyway, uh, y'all see me every week. I'm trying to just build up my own little thing. Swag got his own thing, Ray got his own thing. I gotta have mine.

Why Babyfaces Look So Foolish

SPEAKER_00

But today, what we are going to have is a discussion on what the fuck is going on with baby faces currently in the product. We're talking about WWE, we're talking about TNA, AEW, just all around. I have currently been feeling that baby faces are making some of the dumbest decisions anytime whenever, like, especially like Cody Rhodes, currently holding the belt. Mike Santana, bro, I understand you have a tremendous story. And I understand at the same time that this is not all you. It's also booking, it's also the writers. But man, do they just make baby faces really fucking stupid? Guys, do you have a similar thought process with this? Like, do you guys feel that same way? I want to know what you hate the most. That's what I want. Okay, let's talk about Cody real quick. For the last three fucking WrestleManias, he has just been stupid with his decision on talking to people and trusting people, and he's been getting kicked in the dick for the last three WrestleManias. Am I not wrong?

SPEAKER_04

So is it be being too trusty?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, and then making dumb decisions. Like, have you not been kicked in the dick one? Trust me, it only takes me one time to be kicked in the dick from somebody I trust to be like, mmm, I don't know about you, but let me keep my okay. I saw the kick.

SPEAKER_04

That's fair.

SPEAKER_00

But like he he does none of that. And he's done it three times in a row. How many times did it take you to get kicked in the dick to realize maybe that might be a problem here?

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so we've always been kicked by in the dick by what?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so we're talking about Cena. We gotta talk about uh, was it um Rock? Well, technically Rock didn't kick him in the dick, but Rock did get him. He issued it. Yeah, he issued it, yeah. Okay. And then um Sammy kick him in the dick? Sammy? No, no. No, but it was um it was Randy Orton, technically. Uh yeah. Okay, so that's enough. Randy Orton. And then oh, actually, um back McAfee.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so that's four. Mm-hmm. Jeez, yeah, you gotta put that.

SPEAKER_00

You you sit here thinking about it for a second.

SPEAKER_03

Like No, I'm just I'm processing what your your your your uh your opening statement is.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes. I feel like I feel like baby faces are too trustworthy or in an era where heels are very dominant. Heels are very strategic. MJ, MJF is a perfect example of a strategic ass heel. But a part of me just feels like one, it could be the writing. You know, obviously the writing is telling you, hey, you know, this is gonna happen. You're gonna trust this character, and you're just gonna be that red hot baby face who is just, you know, I'm coming out here. I'm I got the support from the crowd, I got this, this, and that. And I just feel like, yes, you can be a baby face, but you could be strategic. I mean, shit, Cena back in the day used to trick the fuck out of people. He'd be like, oh, you gonna do that? I got your ass. I'm gonna get you back. And he always used to do something that may seem heelish, like when he used to like drop poop on people, uh, used to put uh the chairs on top of um.

SPEAKER_04

You're missing the mind game.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like where are the mind games? Like you got somebody like fucking with you for a while, and then you just I'm gonna come back up every time and don't do anything different. And I just keep getting my ass kicked every time.

SPEAKER_04

Instead of actually changing the game.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Where's the strategy?

SPEAKER_04

I get your point.

SPEAKER_00

You know?

SPEAKER_04

Now, for me, from what I've seen, as far as what you're saying, especially lately, since there's a bunch of heel groups around, I don't get the whole baby face that, oh, don't worry about it. I want to do it on my own. I want to do it by myself. It's like four to five on one, six on one sometimes. And you want to do it by yourself. Then when somebody's offering you help, on the babyface side, mind you, then they turn it down. It's like, wouldn't it at least be better if it was like maybe two on six, three on six?

SPEAKER_00

And that's and that's another thing. It's a dumb decision like that to be like, I'm gonna go out there, and then suddenly he goes out there by himself, handling, trying to handle all six, then gets his ass kicked, and then those people still come out there and help him. Right. And he's just like, actually, thank you. I appreciate you. But no, you could have had this from the jump.

SPEAKER_04

I told you. Now, me personally, as another baby face, I would sit up here, yeah, I'm gonna come out there and help you, but then I'm gonna look at you sideways like, I told you, roll my ass out the ring and go about my business.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's a difference than that for you, because I don't, I think because of how I've seen Federation years and you've seen like your Hulk Hogans

Cody Rhodes Keeps Trusting Wrong People

SPEAKER_00

and things of that nature and their baby faces, and yet they make dumb decisions. But like, I feel like it's what's the best way to put it? Um, y'all wouldn't really be super babyfaced to me if you like, hey, I told you, roll out the wing. You kind of, it kind of feels like you'd be a little bit in the gray area, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_04

I don't see how that's a gray area when I helped you out, and I'm just pointing out the fact that, hey, I was right. Isn't like I didn't like I'm dissing you. I was right. But then I go about my dang business. Like uh, heck, for instance, you can say Montez Ford is in that lane right now. Yeah. Well, at the end of the day, it's like, bro, we get into Seth, we give up with Seth, we're gonna get in trouble. And now you in the mix, which is fine. But at the end of the day, Tez was right.

SPEAKER_00

Tez, well, and isn't um uh Dawkins currently injured or I think so.

SPEAKER_03

Or is he just well, I I don't know cave-wise. Yeah, that's what I mean. I don't know, like, you know, but uh what I think is the big difference, you know, with that comparison of you saying like how Cody runs, and then like for you in this particular instance is the fact that Cody Rhodes pretty much it's one of those things like uh Cody Rhodes's character right now is a baby face. Cody Rhodes isn't his character isn't Cody Rhodes, and if that makes sense. So for instance, like Ray Zeon, as what he is, you know, and how he moves in the ring, Ray Xeon can be a heel and can be a babyface, but whenever he is heel or babyface, he is baby face Ray Zeon. As where Cody Rhodes is just a baby face. We all know what Cody Rhodes can do. We've seen how Cody Rhodes can act, we've seen like his character before, and even more so, we even know what the nightmare Cody Rhodes is potentially able to do. Fox the revival. But he's not being the nightmare Cody Rhodes as a baby face, he's just Cody Rhodes being a baby face. If you look up the definition of what a baby face is, Cody Rhodes is being that definition. It's not Cody the nightmare Cody Rhodes is a good guy. No, Cody Rhodes is just playing the part of babyface.

SPEAKER_04

To be honest, I think the nightmare part is gone. They've been gone.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, literally. Which is true. He is literally the daydream at this point.

SPEAKER_04

I'm not even about to say day party. I ain't gonna be a good thing. No, it's a daydream.

SPEAKER_03

He's literally the daydreamer. Daydream, Cody. But it's like, cause like, so because which like because the the type of babyface definition that Cody Rhodes is going for, he is the Superman, okay? And I feel, to me, I feel what your issue might be is just the fact that when you look at the landscape right now, like, especially looking at WWE, there are people who are understood as babyfaces, but they don't necessarily do babyface things, they do whatever that character does, if that makes sense. And so they're all their own people, but they are on the line of being, but they're they're good. So they'll say nice things to the crowd, you know, they'll touch on those usual babyface things that lets you know they're a babyface, but they're still them. Cody Rhodes, he is, he's not being the the American nightmare Cody Rhodes. He's just being the default babyface. He is, he's being that Superman that that everyone wants to see that's forever good standing in justice and this stand the other. But I also feel the other thing that might be going on, especially in WWE, is the fact like we're not getting people who are who are like fully identify as babyface, and then we're seeing their personalities come

Strategy Missing From Good Guys

SPEAKER_03

out, type deal. Because like we could only handle Superman for so long before it's like, all right, fuck, give me a Batman, give me a Hal Jordan, you know what I'm saying? Give me, give me a different taste of good guy.

SPEAKER_04

Here's why Roman keeps coming back and literally even apologized.

SPEAKER_03

Literally. And that's the thing. So it's like when we because then when you look on the opposite end, it's like we have Roman Reigns. And like Roman Reigns, he's it's not a good guy. He's not a bad guy. He's he's legitimately now the guy. The guy type situation.

SPEAKER_02

All over again.

SPEAKER_03

But it's like, you know, so it's like he's he he treads this weird line. So it's like you're not really getting a whole lot of baby face out of him, or like if you if he's because he's not on one side or the other, he's just in this little middle area where he literally can teeter-talter on what bits that he wants to do. It leaves Cody Rhodes as like the only true identifiable good guy that exists. Because like even Seth Rollins, who's up in this upper echelon, he is a he is a understood good guy right now because his bad guy group turned on him. So that has to make him good now.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so I think what you're saying is basically, you know, with some like Seth's example, he is a baby face who is justified. Whereas Cody, again, Cody has nothing. Cody to me has no character after winning the title again recently. Like, all the story and the matches that he's had is just like Cody versus Wrestler. Cody versus wrestler. That's literally what it is. Like, I mean, now with the match with Gunther, so what? Like, at this point, I'm I do want the belt off Cody. I I think Cody is on that echelon of Stone Cold where he needs to be chasing the title constantly. He can't have the title too long because then it gets stale. And Austin even said to himself, I get stale. I need to lose the belt, I need to get it again. And I feel like Cody is in that same category, and because of that, and because they keep wanting to make him the quarterback, they keep bringing back Roman Reigns. And funny enough, John Cena just did a promo with him years ago saying, I keep coming back because you can't do your job. And Cody, right now, you're not doing your job, and that's why the fuck Roman Reigns keeps coming back. I'm pretty sure somebody said that the singer at one point.

SPEAKER_03

See, I can't agree with the fact that Cody Rhodes isn't doing his job. All right. So when you go going back to a statement you made about Stone Cold and the fact that like he feels like he gets stale when he's not chasing the title, kind of thing. And I think the reasons why I feel Stone Cold probably said that is just the fact that for certain there are, I feel like there might be certain people, which I don't think Stone Cold ever got stale when he was holding the belt.

SPEAKER_00

He said, he said it became like at that point when he got the belt, it's like you can't he doesn't have that much he can do with it. He just felt like chasing the belt was better. Because you got the crowd constantly going for you, and then the minute you got the belt, yes, he could be champion for a while, but then after a while, he needs that red hotness again. And what better way is to lose the title to get that climb again.

SPEAKER_04

Now, to be fair, it is always better when the baby face is chasing the hill to try to get to the title. Even though I'm gonna get the back face, though. That doesn't work. Because I want to say, to me, he got still when he shook Vince's hand. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00

Oh no, he just killed it. He he killed it at that point.

SPEAKER_04

That was like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But he killed the anti-ray. But the thing is, when it comes to something like that, and I feel the like now, Stokold, he I would say he's a I won't say he's a special case, but I feel like the reason why he probably saw that and he felt that way is because in his mind, as smart on the business that he is, he probably knew that if I hold this belt too long, the people backstage aren't going to be able to figure out how to keep me interesting with this belt on my shoulder. And so in his mind, he's like, if I lose it, then that gives me a reason to do Stone Cold things to try and get it back, aka Stone Cold felt that he just can tell a better story if he's chasing the belt as opposed to holding it. Now, as we've seen, it's possible to tell an amazing story and still hold on to the belt. It's been proven. Roman Reigns did it.

SPEAKER_00

But he wasn't a babyface, though. He flip-flopped a lot of now. He was a heel through and through. Let's let's be real. No, no, no. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_04

They had moments. They had moments. Now he was heel the whole time. How about if he was a tweener?

SPEAKER_00

He was a tweener that was something.

SPEAKER_04

No, no, no. I agree with you. He was a heel majority of the time. Yeah. But he had the little flip-flops here and there. There were small moments. They kept it interesting.

SPEAKER_03

Small, small moments, yes. Yes. But it's like it's all about in how you tell the story when the person holds on to that height.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03

And what's happening right now is the fact that WWE, and I won't even say, like, yes, it is the issue, but I I can't put that on Cody.

SPEAKER_04

And that's why. So you can't think it's WWE as a whole? Yes. Yes. So then I pose this question. NWE, because I know what you want to get to. But in WWE, are there any interesting baby faces right now?

SPEAKER_00

See, and that's a weird situation because I was gonna bring up uh Sami Zayn. Like Sami Zayn as a baby face, you would think he always would have the crowd no matter what. But as of recently, you've seen how the crowd is not liking him, and they

Default Superman Versus Real Character

SPEAKER_00

and it pushed it so hard that he had to turn heel. Now hold on.

SPEAKER_03

Because if you pay attention to the story, all right, they've been trying to, they've been doing like this extremely slow, might I say. But they've been doing an extremely slow build of making him be healed they're doing the thing where they're making him be heel without outright truly making him be heel. I'm pretty I think this is this is this is their attempt at a long-term story for Sami Zayn. Because this goes all the way about almost about a year ago to this point. Because when he was getting mixed up with Drew McIntyre and Cody Rhodes and all that other stuff, and like he's, you know, like he's Cody Rose, him and Cody Rhodes are starting to have this falling out, and all like it's it's been this weird progressive thing where him, yeah, like he was doing that, and then he was going through this whole situation of like I have to do the right thing, and then people are all like even Cody, like kind of like passive aggressively saying, like, hey, doing the right thing ain't always what you gotta do. Although it's weird when Cody kind of dead because Cody's in this weird thing of always trying to do the right thing. But it's like everyone keeps on saying it's like, you know, Sami Zayn, I didn't get all my championships with if I, you know, being at all uh cool with everybody. I had to be selfish to get to where I'm at. Word for the wise. And so in the more recent times, especially after he had that unnecessary clean loss to Drew McIntyre in Saudi Arabia for the type.

SPEAKER_00

That shit was pissed me off.

SPEAKER_03

And so it's like ever since that point, Sami Zayn has been doing very tiny little minuscule heel things to try and get his way. And cause because like it's because it's been, it was slowly working for him. And so the the crowd isn't blind to that shit. And that's why he initially has been getting booed. But it's like he's doing this, he hit as the story is going on, he's all like, I didn't do anything wrong. I don't understand why you're booing.

SPEAKER_00

To an extent, yes, but then that's where the Sammy Hogan allegations came in. And that's where it's like the fans were truly like, yeah, actually, like I feel like, yeah, they probably, there's one side that may feel like Sammy Zayn is probably using Hogan tactics to maneuver himself or position himself and things, which to me honestly sounds crazy. But for people to throw the allegations up at him because he took the US title to be in a match with Trick Williams at uh WrestleMania, that kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Because I was like, that's uh that's just WWE. That's not Sammy being that's the story. Oh yeah. No, that part is exactly what it is. But that's just again, that that part is WWE. So like I see what you're saying is like it's not really the wrestler itself. It could be the writing, it could be the position that they're being put in. And it's we all we all understand that. But as a a fan, I don't I don't want to look at my baby faces and heels and think, man, this is this is crappy product because the back. Because that's gonna be the argument in any situation, right? Because they have been also been put in positions before wrestlers who've been given crap sandwiches but turn them into uh crap sandwiches with bacon, as being swag like to do every once in a while. Yeah, no, every once in a while it's like, yeah, this is a crap sandwich, but this is a crap sandwich, just a little bit of bacon in it, and it makes it somewhat okay.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Always. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So so, but yeah, I feel like they begin to crap a lot of crap sandwiches. And and another example I wanted to bring up, and it took me a minute, because when I originally said

Sami Zayn And The Slow Heel Turn

SPEAKER_00

this concept in my head that I just do not like Mike Santana's reign and TNA, I had to sit there and think to myself, what exactly is the story Mike Santana has been telling? One, it's a very true story of him battling addiction for a while and then coming out triumphing, putting his dues in and winning the title. This is very much babyface esque. But I think as I'm looking at the product again, he also sometimes makes stupid decisions. And that's why I came with the argument is like, why are babyfaces making dumb decisions? Like, out of the pure nature of like, I'm defending this title no matter what, this, this, and that, which is a very babyface thing to do. But then you don't think about, I might need to watch my opponent because my opponent might be a tricky son of a bitch. You're just hoping, knowing that the person's a backstabbing motherfucker, I'm just gonna trust that we're gonna do this fair and square and down the middle.

SPEAKER_03

The problem is, is I think it's the problem is the same issue with Cody Rhodes. All right. We all know what Santana is. We see his story in like his presentation and all this other stuff. But the problem is, is the fact that they're making Santana play, they're making Santana play the role of definition baby face. They're not making Santana just be Santana as a baby face. Gotcha. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and now that you put that in perspective to me, it definitely opens my eyes to okay, then this is just a hey, you know, like when you watch your Saturday morning uh wrestling back in the day, and you see your Hulk Hogan's or ex etc. back in the Federation years, and you're like, that's the babyface talent. He's gonna win no matter what. And you just ran with it, right? I guess because um, I guess I got a little bit more mature. I want more than just the fact that he could just win because, right?

SPEAKER_03

What you're looking for, and I'm glad you've made that analogy, all right. Cody Rose and Mike Santana are trying to be their respective Hulk Hogans, all right?

SPEAKER_04

Super white meat, no pepper, no salt, no saisson. What we want some paprika.

SPEAKER_03

We want macho man Randy Savage. Jesus and salt. Some salt. We want somebody who is unapologetically still them, but they're good. They're on the side of good. Because when you look at that, when you look at Randy Savage, right? Whether you was booing him or you was cheering him, Randy Savage was always Randy Savage. He would just either be extremely turned up because he's got the crown on and he's with Scary Sherry, or he is super crazy babyface because he's rocking with the mega powers. But no matter what side he was on, he was still Randy Savage. When you look at Cody Rhodes, we know what the American Nightmare is. We know what that looks like. This ain't it. This ain't it. He's not American Nightmare Cody Rhodes, he is babyface Cody Rhodes. What we wish we could have is American Nightmare Cody Rhodes being a baby face. We wish we could have Mike Santana being a babyface, not Mike Santana babyface.

SPEAKER_00

Because he's so gutter, and like I love like how gutter he is, and he could put that into a character, but it's just like I'm here for the crowd. I feel like they toned it down, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_04

Because I've seen him in Hog versus TNA. That's a big difference, bro.

SPEAKER_00

That's a big difference. It is a big difference. And I think why he's probably doing that is because he's trying to prepare himself for WWE. Because he has recently not, uh I think he's not free-signed with them, and he's trying to go to WWE, which that is what they want.

SPEAKER_03

But for now, granted, there's also this for me the issue that uh I respect everything about Mike Santana. Yes, absolutely. But the problem is he's not a star. No. He is he is not a star. He could be a star. He could book the right way. Yes, he could. They are not booking him the right way. Which is, which I that that I can agree with. And and and him being booked as this white meat baby face Mike Santana is not doing it for anybody.

SPEAKER_00

I need I need that. I need like mira miro. And I believe.

SPEAKER_01

No, it's not brought up the song from my childhood, bro. Like the tag team back in the day. That was that motherfucking shit. Wait, I got I got it. It's an old Federation song, but it can't. But we used to blast that shit for no reason.

SPEAKER_04

But nah, so Santana, we was messing around with the order for and Mustafa and all of them. He kept coming out looking stupid every time. Because it's like, bro, you know they're coming to gang up on you. You got no backup, no tricks up your sleeve, nothing.

SPEAKER_03

And honestly, I feel, bringing it all the way back to like one of the analogies that you gave, it's because of that particular bit is probably the reason why Stone Cole's like, I'm not trying to hold this title very long. And that's why he felt like I get stale when I'm holding this belt. Because when you're holding the title, unless you're gonna flip-flop from good guy to bad guy while holding the belt, the all it being that, you know, once you have that belt, you kind of fall into that area of just because you have to keep on going up against heels. And if you're gonna be going up against other heels, because AEW, that makes sense when you have baby face versus heel, just saying. But it's like, if you're going to go up again, you have no choice, you kind of have you kind of fall into that white meat baby face area. Because you kind of have to. And I think with Stone Cold, he's all like, if I fall into that cycle, then I'm going to lose about the crowd. The the crowd, and I'm going to lose what makes me Stone Cold Steve Austin.

SPEAKER_00

Because it's like it's anti-establishment.

SPEAKER_03

Because well, not just that, but it's like, as Stone Cold Steve Austin, he has to raise hell, he has to drink beer, he has to be crazy. But if he's the champion, what are you complaining about? Yeah, why is he raising hell? I mean, he can still drink the beer, but it's like, be crazy for what?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you're at the top of the city.

SPEAKER_03

People are look tree, people are trying to get at you. You're not gonna be, you shouldn't be the champion and being like, now that I'm at the top, so and so, I'm trying to fight you and put this belt on the line type situation. Which is also another thing about wrestling right now that has been really uh.

Mike Santana And The TNA Problem

SPEAKER_04

Because that's what Cody is at right now.

SPEAKER_00

Or or these fucking everybody's wanting to do an open challenge.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. You can't do that for everything. I get it. So who was it? Cena that made it popular during the year. Cena, but that was the but we did it one time and that was it. And then everybody else started kind of doing it.

SPEAKER_00

But only this year. They didn't do it for like a while, bro. Oh, yeah. It's been it's been a uh Well, who else has done it this year? So it was it was Carmelo, it was um We got people in TNA.

SPEAKER_04

Anyone who had now Darby's been calling people out, so that's why. Yeah, but that's that too. And that was Carl was doing the open when Darby What are the girls trying to do it?

SPEAKER_00

Um Ruca's kind of kind of she has she's officially said it. She's trying to do it. That's like three right now. But there's AEW.

SPEAKER_03

It's this whole fighting champion situation.

SPEAKER_00

Um, um Jet. Jet's currently doing it.

SPEAKER_04

Wait, why is he doing the he's heel?

SPEAKER_00

Because he's just trying to showcase that I'm the best talent and I need to maneuver myself into the heavyweight title though.

SPEAKER_04

But if I'm the heel and I'm trying to maneuver myself into the heavyweight titles, you need to earn a shot at me. I can move up all I want to. You're right. But if you want to fight me, you gotta earn that.

SPEAKER_00

But I also think is with the TNT title, I think one of the rules and stipulations is what it will be defended every week. On TV. I think that is the thing. I thought it used to be that.

SPEAKER_04

I thought it used to be a lot of it. I've seen several weeks to where it hasn't been, but I get it.

SPEAKER_03

It yeah, AEW's really loose on their rules. But I will agree with that. Great product, though. I will agree with you on that particular bit, and there's been a lot of that not happening, which is one of the why one of the couple complaints when it comes to AEW and why AEW can't, I feel they can't get to a space where they have the right amount of stars to really push them to where they should be. And it's because of the fact that we're not putting wrestlers through the grind of trying to get to the heavyweight title picture or whatever. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Because what's happening is remember when they used to have the records and all that, yeah, yeah. Stop doing that. But you're right.

SPEAKER_03

They need to take that Mortal Kombat Mountain Climb and get to because we're having a whole lot of we have this tournament going on. However, so-and-so comes on and be like, MJF, you're a bitch. Challenge me with the title. And MJF's like, you know what, fuck it. I'm gonna show you. We'll have a title match right now. There's a whole number one contender tournament happening right now for the title. Why is he fighting Roosh? Roosh did not do a goddamn thing to earn himself a title shot. He bunched about a bunch of no-name niggas. I don't even know if he did that. I really don't even know if he did that. I know I know Roos matches later. You know why? Because there were squash matches and they were over in two minutes. You know what happens in that two minutes? You get a phone call, you get up and get something to drink, you take a quick pee break. By the time he comes back, there is no evidence that match ever happened.

SPEAKER_00

Not you saying that match is the pee break, bro. God damn. That's the thing. It wasn't. It wasn't the pea break.

SPEAKER_03

You went to use the bathroom because it went a commercial, and by the time he came back, there's still commercials going on. You're like, wait, what happened? Because Roosh had a quick, what did they call it? They call it buffer match. Had a quick buffer match and got on the thing. You get the ball, get the horns. Next commercial commercial break. When you come and sit back down after you use the bathroom and you realize, oh, I need to fill my couple with a little more liquor before I sit down and watch the paper, continue watching the show. You come down, sit down, commercial ends. You're like, oh man, they got some long ass commercials. All right, next match is on. Let's good.

SPEAKER_00

This motherfucker got PTSD, bro.

SPEAKER_03

It's not PTSD, it's just what the fuck it is, bro.

SPEAKER_00

He's sitting here flashing back like I'm I mean, he's not wrong because I'm being serious.

SPEAKER_04

I'm like, I ain't seen no Rouge matches with him.

SPEAKER_00

I've seen Ring of Honor. I've been I've been following the infantry and all these stupid shit all day.

SPEAKER_03

Well, God bless you. Where's the roof? Y'all, y'all heard that first. Ray Zeon, he watches Ring of Honor. I only watch it for five minutes. I got you.

SPEAKER_04

The rest of y'all.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Shane, Shane Taylor Productions, yeah. I'm I'm glad he's actually on AW now. He's been in Ring of Honor way too long for him to finally get elevated at something bigger. Yeah, hell Fox.

SPEAKER_04

Fox is starting to get exposure.

SPEAKER_00

I mean,

Open Challenges And Earned Title Shots

SPEAKER_00

yeah. Fox definitely needed me. Um, but I also am cited Lucha Underground's coming back.

SPEAKER_04

Wait, wait, wait. Under who?

SPEAKER_00

Uh I can't remember who, but it's supposed to be coming back. And how so it's coming back is because they actually started posting the episodes on their uh YouTube.

SPEAKER_04

Let me research those contracts before I say yay and nay on that. Because you know what happened last time.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, yeah. For anybody that does not know, if you were working with Lucha Underground, you couldn't work anywhere else. As long as you are a part of a storyline, it was like, oh, yeah, you're part of a storyline. You can't get injured in anything because we're filming months in advance.

SPEAKER_04

So I didn't wear as far as just TV. I'm talking about like this is beyond wrestling. Acting, commercials, et cetera.

SPEAKER_00

You couldn't do nothing. Nothing, bro. So you would it was life. Yeah. So so talent would simply do a match and then has to wait maybe a month later to potentially go back and do another match when you still gotta eat and you only getting paid technically contract-wise, but like you're also getting paid for your bookings. So it's just like And if you're under a mask, you can't post half of this stuff. Mm-mm. So hopefully it's not this ain't granted. I did love Lucha Underground as a product. Completely. I still need this motherfucker to watch it. Well, it's gonna be interesting because like he's never watched it. He watched it like those equals. He watched like the tail end of it because him and Antonio started watching.

SPEAKER_03

So here's here's the situation when it came to Lucha Underground. All right. Cause Lucha Underground came out of the time, because once again, that I've always been a uh if it's on TV, I'm gonna watch it kind of person. And so it's like I I have only recently converted myself to being able to just like take time out of my day to watch something that has been pre-recorded on a stream somewhere.

SPEAKER_00

But it was also it was on L Raid Network.

SPEAKER_03

But that's the thing. I we didn't have like TV related too, Greg. Well, that's the thing. So during that time, I didn't have cable in the house, right? But you did say at first TV. So I'm just calling that. Well, yes, if it was on TV. But then when I moved out with my roommate at that time, we didn't have cable for a while. And then like we had we caught cable on its on a deal, and then when we got cable, then we was like, all right, cool. So and we only really watched wrestling, and then no one around us was talking about Lucha Underground at that time. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00

And so it's like I was really stuck under my ex at that point, so I wasn't seeing y'all niggas.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. So it was like, you're you're you're MIA. Grant, we thought we just shooed you away because we would just ridicule you about John Cena, the whole rep the whole wrestling paper. Nah, that was that was literally her. But the situ but anyway, what ended up going down was like, like I said, no one in our immediate circle really watched other wrestlings besides myself, Cecil, God rest the soul, and then of course our boy Antonio. And so, but even then, they only stretched as far as New Japan New Japan kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00

They didn't really honor.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, a little bit. A little bit of Ring of Honor. So it's like where I think where Antonio would watch WWE and he would stretch the Ring of Honor. Cecil, he kind of stretched and he uh uh got more, got a bit more on the New Japan side, where I kind of sort of would still pay attention to TNA, uh kind of sort of deal. So it's like none of us knew that it was really going on or how on and popping it would be. We found it scrolling through channels one day on on uh just just whatever. We're just kicking and we're just talking. So it's like we watch it, we set the DVR to record it, and we would try to make sure we set aside times to watch more of it. So I would say I've probably at least watched, I've watched at least five unordered episodes of uh Lucha Underground.

SPEAKER_04

So who do you remember, or what moment do you remember from Lucha Underground or everybody that day?

SPEAKER_03

So that's that's the problem.

SPEAKER_04

For what you saw.

SPEAKER_03

So I do remember um uh Big Zeke, because I was excited to see that Big Rick?

SPEAKER_02

Was it Big Rick? Rick, whatever.

SPEAKER_03

I know him as Ezekiel Jessica.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, yeah, you good.

SPEAKER_00

Big Rick, yeah. But it's like I remember. Wait, did he have the eye patch on? Yes or no? No iPads. Okay, so that's way season one, season two, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so it's like I remember him. Uh I do remember seeing Pinta. Okay and Chavo was having some matches too.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, so yeah, so you saw earlier.

SPEAKER_03

Who else did I see? Uh that was also, I also saw um oh my goodness, what's that girl's name? Uh Eva uh or sexy star. Actually, yes, sexy star, but um Eva? Uh no. Spanish chick, right? Yeah, Spanish girl.

SPEAKER_00

But you know that's that's uh that's what's saying Eva Lee?

SPEAKER_03

No, no, no. She she she was she's she's the one Spanish girl that's on AEW right now and also often on busted open. Literally, her name is just escaping me right now.

SPEAKER_00

Thunder, I'm about to say Thunder Rosa. Yeah, there you go. Thunder Rosa. Yeah, because Thunder Rosa was um uh um the moth's sister. Yeah, Thunder Rosa was like.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, because you had the Moth Tribe, Rabbit Tribe, Reptile Tribe.

SPEAKER_00

Which Rabbit Tribe had uh uh Carrying Cross. Right. And so like and um uh Paul London. So I I do remember seeing Paul London on there. Yeah, it was like corner like season three, almost season four. Well, see technically season three was the last one, right? I want to say it wasn't. Like one is season four. So wait, and I remember Josh Mingle was on there.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, you know it's the gift of the gods. Yes, I do. I ain't gonna lie, I remember that's the title and everything. Because I remember seeing the belt. I can't I can't.

SPEAKER_04

We need pictures of that title.

SPEAKER_00

You can actually get replicas of it.

SPEAKER_04

I I want to see the original one to see if it still look as good.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it might bring it back. We never know. Well, it can only one to have.

SPEAKER_01

Didn't Mondo have a squad though?

unknown

Who?

SPEAKER_00

Didn't Mundo have a squad? Yeah, he did. He had uh where it was his wife, uh, and then he had Ricky Mandel, who was like a duplicate, and he had one more person I can't remember.

SPEAKER_04

I think Ricky Montel is the same dude that's part of um damn, what's the school he got? I want to say current proof dojo. I don't know. I I kid you not, it's the same dude. Because he still looked like dressed like Moondo to this day. I cannot remember his name for nothing right now.

SPEAKER_00

Well, Moondo, I think he well, he's not Moondo now, he's uh T V. He shaved his hair now. Well that's because no, that's because he lost a hair mask. Against who?

SPEAKER_03

Um good question. I remember it was like a whole it was like a small thing, and then it was like, yeah, I just gotta shake it.

SPEAKER_00

It was in triple A, though. Not Triple A. It was on CMML.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it was a span, it was in one of the C MML.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can't remember. Not Mystica. Um I regardless, he had a hair mask. Yeah, and he lost and he lost his hair.

SPEAKER_04

But back to the point, he had a group. Yeah. And it was like, well, he I want to say he had a helico uh sevens.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, no, they was a they were their own function. Bitch, by the way, that was one of the best tag teams on there, bro. Like some of the crazy shit they were doing, jumping off of Dario Quedo's uh office. Uh that was also another thing about Lucha Underground was great, is the fact that the the chairman was literally, oh, that's the top door right now. Okay. He could just be right there all of a sudden in the middle of the match, just uh this is a hardcore match now. Close the door.

SPEAKER_04

Or he would.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, or he people would actually fall through his office, and then you would actually see uh because they do everything as cinematic. So while you would probably see it in real time, it's a cinematic, like, ugh. They pre-planned it, pre-record it as a situation app. It was really dope. It was funny. It was easy. Yes, with the winner's gonna bring that back if he's gonna go. He is literally the bad. He is literally a Latin Vince McMahon, I swear to God. He looks like one.

SPEAKER_04

And in person, he is much cooler.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, no. I I I've had my fair share with them as well.

Lucha Underground Memories And Contract Traps

SPEAKER_00

Um, but to kind of get back into the the the bare bones of the original conversation of how I have been feeling about baby faces, I I appreciate your perspective. Normally, we sometimes are at an impasse in our uh our ideologies of wrestling, but like once you said that, it's like, bro, he's just a default babyface. It lets me know that oh, so then don't fucking care about the character. Just know he's just gonna go out there and be your baby face that the kids love, which is weird because like when John Cena was that, well, he still was fucking John Cena. And that's what's weird because he was the default, like the default baby face.

SPEAKER_04

I think it's weird because now we could tell the difference.

SPEAKER_03

But I also think, because like, yes, John Cena was the default thing, however, it was still it was still, as I would call like that Hulk Hogan formula, and and even more so, it was the Hulk Hogan formula pushed in the way that Vince McMahon would push it. Because think back when Hulk Hogan was doing his thing, right?

SPEAKER_00

He still had a personality.

SPEAKER_03

It's like Hulk Hogan did have, yeah, Hulk Hogan did have his personality and he never lost his personality, and he would still do what he'd want to do, but he was still the white hot, you know, baby face. But then, like, whenever there are points when it would get stale, this McMahon's like, nah, fam, tough it up and push through that stale. With all the hot dogs game. And and so what happens? Hulk Hogan continues to Hulk Hogan and push through and continue winning.

SPEAKER_00

I think Hogan didn't care because he was still getting money. He was like, I need the.

SPEAKER_03

Now that's also I'm I won't say that that could also be the reason why it is what it is right now. I mean, he didn't want to even give the title to Taker, bro. No, well, no, what I'm saying. No, no, no. I'm not saying what Hulk Hogan did. I'm talking about right now. Oh, because you could still equate that that could be the reason. Cody Rhodes is the top of the bull chain in WWE right next to Roman Reigns. The amount of money he is getting, his children's children's children are going to be taken care of for the rest of their lives.

SPEAKER_04

But who's better off? Is it QB1 or is it receiver one? Is a runner back one?

SPEAKER_00

Who the fuck are they? You can't have a QB1. But I get it. So who the fuck are they?

SPEAKER_04

So that's what I'm saying is when people are making touchdowns, who do you remember more? Do you remember the quarterback? Do you remember the dude who caught the You're not answering my question?

SPEAKER_00

Who the fuck is QB two and wide receiver then?

SPEAKER_04

If Cody claims he's QB1, you can't tell me Roman ain't receiver one?

SPEAKER_00

Honestly, Roman is QB1.

SPEAKER_04

So if Roman is QB1, Cody claims Cody's a receiver. Cody's a running back.

SPEAKER_01

No, Cody's QB two. Oh, okay. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, it's the great. Yeah, he's the backup. So if he's the backup, but he's trying to claim he's QB1. Yeah. Okay, then. Who's receiver one? Who's running back one? Receiver one is is definitely Trick Williams. I can concur with that. I can live with that.

SPEAKER_00

That's definitely him. And you know what your running back is? God damn. He's running through that shit.

SPEAKER_04

I can't argue with that. I really can't argue with that.

SPEAKER_03

But the thing that the point that I'm making is the fact of talking about how like the reason why the reason why Hulk Hogan also agreed with it is because he's getting paid. Yes. He's absolutely agreeing to bite the grit and be like, ah, not everyone likes me, but enough people like me for the checks to keep clearing. What do you think Cody Rose is doing right now?

SPEAKER_04

Dang, that is some QB2 Joe. That's some boo mother. State QB2 Joe right now.

SPEAKER_03

What do you think Cody Rose is doing? Yes. You put it like that. That is clear as day. Cody Rose. Listen, bro, it all comes back down to the fact. I hold it. It all comes back down to the fact that they are making so much money that uncaring towards what we feel, who cares? Cody Rose is Alex Moran. The checks are the checks are clearing. The Super Bowls are getting one. And we're filling up, we're not even filling up the stadiums. We're meeting quota because we raised the prices of the seats.

SPEAKER_00

Jesus. So so what we're saying is basically you have to one, then respect the talent for saying, well, hey, I'm in the business to make money. I'm not in the business to I want to say entertain, but I am here to entertain, but I'm also in the bus, I'm in this for the business. And you cannot get mad at somebody like a Cody Rose or Mike Santana for being a default baby face because god damn it, at the end of the day, it's still a business.

SPEAKER_03

It's one of the reasons why. It ain't gotta be a stale business. It's one of the reasons why, as and I always I always catch heat for it, but like it's true. There is a small part of me that unfortunately kind of has to, and I know y'all gonna yell at me on it, but I have to at least respect Hulk Hogan in the sense that at the end of the day, I need to get my bag. Sure, the practices that he may have done, not necessarily of good heart. But he put bags on the table.

SPEAKER_00

So, but and I think with that logic, though, it's it's very disheartening because, you know, it is, yes, a wrestling business, and you have to think about the boys, you got to think about the girls, but there's a part of the business where a lot of people will say you have to be selfish. Triple H said it himself. Now, you know, Hogan said it himself. It's just a lot of like, okay, when you get into it, you got somebody like maybe who's 18 or something who's looking maybe at us or maybe looking at the product to say, I want to get into this business because I love wrestling, right? I love the entertainment aspect, I love all of that. But then you actually get into the business and see how tainted it is, which is one of the reasons why Dusty Rhodes, if people ask him, Do you want to get into wrestling? Don't do it. Like he said it multiple times, don't do it. And this is one of the reasons why, is because it is a business and you gotta be selfish, you gotta be this, you gotta be that, and and that takes away the fun. Like you can be a talent who is, I want to put people over, I want to do this, I want to do what's right in the business, but are you getting the big checks?

SPEAKER_03

It's a balancing act. It is, and it's one, and as people who are fans, right, when you look at it from a fan perspective, it's like that's like the part that, like, for us like super fans who are in the know, we we try to put that in the very back of the mind. And that's why we feel and get in our ways of saying how we feel this way or that way, or why is this still this way? They need to change it, and da-da-da. Because the the the unfortunate truth of it is is the fact that no, we're not going to change it because it makes us money. Seth Rollins coming out to the ring looking like a fucking goof troop every single night. It's not because Seth Rollins loves the fashion that he's wearing. I don't know about that one. It's because no, Seth Rollins on many occasions has said the fact that, like, I don't know what the fuck I'm wearing. I have someone give this to me and they say, put it on, and I wear it.

SPEAKER_04

You know why you broke come on. No, he did that. No, he dead ass you can't. Oh, he can say that. I don't believe that. Because you can find that.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like Becky also did something.

SPEAKER_04

I feel like Becky dresses. Yeah. And that's fine. Well, that it also agree with the fact of on the inside, if I'm getting that bag and this is getting me that bag, I'm gonna keep doing what's getting me that bag. But continue.

SPEAKER_03

Well, yeah, so it's just it's one of those deals where it's just like, you know, it we be like, oh yes, we love the entertainment part, and yes, the entertainment is what keeps us coming. But especially in the WWE world right now, they have gotten so high up in where they're at, where the entertainment aspect of everything is coming in third place and then fourth place and then fifth place as an important.

SPEAKER_00

I take that. I take that instead of the entertainment, it's the story, even though technically story is a part of that. The story is part of the entertainment. I feel like story is literally at the back of the back of the back of the bus.

SPEAKER_03

Which, I mean, yeah, when you when you say entertainment, you could say that and at that back end of entertainment is the fact of doing store. Because with story, what alleviate this feeling of staleness with Cody Rhodes? It's because it's one of those deals where it's like, it's not impossible. Yeah, it's not. Y'all did it for what three, four years before. It could be easily fixed. It can be done, but then there is also the fact they want to use AI.

SPEAKER_00

That's it's gone on record multiple times them using AI. Come on now.

SPEAKER_03

I I'm not just a big I don't think AI is the direct cause in this particular aspect. It could, it could indeed have something to do with it.

SPEAKER_00

The writers, the writers may be getting a little lazy. You're thinking it's a lack of care. I I mean shit. Freddie Prince Jr. even said to himself a lot of those writers are not even fucking wrestling fans. Okay. They're just people who've been writing for sitcoms and fucking movies and shit like that.

SPEAKER_04

Want they emmy, they ain't worried about that.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Even though I don't technically know if they get Emmys for that shit. No, they don't. I thought they'd get nominated. I don't know. I don't know. I'm a wrestler. I don't know. Which is which is terrible because you know, you see something like the mask versus mask, and that needs something. That needs some kind of award of just story. And that is what I'm also missing. And which, you know, some people are saying it's about time. It's part of the Emmys. It's probably the Emmys? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Well, maybe there's a reason why no one's ever gotten an Emmy for doing a wrestling story.

SPEAKER_00

Because, but well, I bet you Undertaker and the motherfuckers will, because again, that Mass versus Mass was a fucking story. The first. It goddamn right. And you know what? That's probably why they made the Slammies.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I thought that was a split in the face of all the award shows anyway. But that was exactly what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but but again, in the sense of, you know, because they ain't really.

SPEAKER_03

But but then at that point, like I mean, sure. They get, but, but slammy ain't shit. Like, that's not that's not real shit.

SPEAKER_00

Hey man, look, look, man. You telling me.

SPEAKER_04

Nominated, never won. Yeah. Who's split in the face? They mad because they never won one.

SPEAKER_00

So they made the slammers for that?

SPEAKER_04

I believe so, bro. So what wrestling story was nominated? Because I didn't know there was one of them. Apparently, some mess that was in like 20s, 2024.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I could I could definitely tell you that Okada and Kenny could have definitely been a story that.

SPEAKER_04

Peacock episode uh 23, the Rick Flab one. SummerSlam was up for it, hit me in 2015.

SPEAKER_03

I never knew. I never knew that. Look at that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, at least they're getting nominated, so that's cool.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, rainbow.

SPEAKER_00

The more you fucking know, you know what I'm saying? The more you fuck it know. I can fly in this. No, it's butterfly. I've seen it. Butterfly. You can't just be.

SPEAKER_04

You gotta have a Geordie shade as well. Stop the madness.

SPEAKER_00

Stop. Stop the madness. As a macho man fan, you telling me to stop the madness is crazy. Anyway.

The Business Side Killing The Fun

SPEAKER_00

So, okay, now that we kind of I have got an explanation on what is the difference in it, there's been a lot that we have talked about that has kind of brought me back, brought me back now to the previous conversation you gave me two, three episodes ago. When you watch your wrestling, how are you watching it? How are you analyzing it now? Because I feel like with us having this conversation, is now making me change how I'm about to start watching wrestling moving forward. Is and it also brings back to another conversation I even brought to you, is that I feel like wrestling fans are too fucking smart. We are too smart in knowing the behind the scenes things. We are too smart to just turn our brain off and enjoy the progress that it is. Because when we were growing up, we didn't know that shit. We some people thought it was real. Some people just went into the actual scale of it all. But once you start getting too smart into something, maybe it's just me. But now it doesn't become as fun because you're really wanting in-depth stuff. It's just like, okay, think of tasting cheesecake for the first time, right? You got a plain basic ass cheesecake from, like, I don't know, a restaurant or something like that. And then you actually go to somewhere that is a bakery and they give you this delicate ass cheesecake made with this fine ass cheesecake. You taste it like, this is what cheesecake can really taste like? Oh, I want cheesecake like this all the fucking time. And then you go somewhere else. And you're expecting that same goddamn cheesecake. But now it's like, why this shit bitter? Why this shit not sweet enough? Why this shit just tastes like cheese?

SPEAKER_04

I think it's that whole thing of knowing and not knowing, and you know that you're not gonna get the same taste every time. You're not gonna get the same taste.

SPEAKER_00

And that's and that's upsetting.

SPEAKER_04

You're not gonna get the same quality every time.

SPEAKER_00

Because coming from again, an era where every week was red-hot fucking wrestling, you couldn't miss a goddamn second of it. And if you did, God forbid you went to school or something like that the next day.

SPEAKER_04

I agree with that, but at the same time, I was a little bit more aware during that time. Some of that stuff was good, some of that stuff wasn't. It just depended on the week.

SPEAKER_03

I think now, on that initial thing, because I know when you brought this up before, it's like I feel that there's two levels you were look you can look at this on. It's you can look at on the level of the fact that we, like, I know you're a little older than us, but it's like, you know, we're not five. Not very, but like six.

SPEAKER_06

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

So glad don't crack. God damn. Well, because so like I would say, like, so for you and me, we're pretty much core attitude era forward. I know for you, you probably have tail end of the golden age era going into that new generation era and then going into attitude and further beyond. And it's like and you also watch WCW. And so weird ass. Weird ass motherfucker.

SPEAKER_01

And so, oh my weird because I got all the cable. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00

We had Record Wiley in here talking about the fact that he's playing WCW NW overvenge. We were like, ugh, nigga.

SPEAKER_04

That's an easy copyable. It was it was SmackDown 2 just in a whole nother format. It was the same game.

SPEAKER_00

Nah, you're talking about No Mercy, but yes, you're correct.

SPEAKER_04

Sorry, yes, you're right. No burst. Same game. Different sprites. It really was.

SPEAKER_00

Hold up, hold up now. Hold up now. Um, at least in No Mercy, they actually came out to their theme songs.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I ain't gonna lie. I don't know what the theme song was. Look, I wouldn't even worry about that. I had I had AKI and THQ man and Sting, and I kind of didn't care.

SPEAKER_03

But I also think it's because like WCW, like they they could, because they had a lot of license. They had like no license for anything, so they just had where WWE, which I guess they owned it because it's they owned all because they made their they made that shit.

SPEAKER_04

Whatever. Hogan ate all the licensing money, so that's why we handle music.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, Jimmy Hendrix. But the thing that I was getting at is the fact is like the no, like, because we've came up to a certain point, like we know, or at least I'd like to say, metaphorically speaking, for per se. Like, we we think at least, we think we know what peak and what good wrestling is, was, and looks like. And so a lot of the times when we're watching SmackDown, Raw, AEW, when we're watching these things, we're expecting the peak versions of those, or at least I know I am, I'm expecting the peak versions of those respected brands. And if they don't meet that peak version, then it's like, how close can we get to it? Because as of this very moment, all wrestling right now, when you look at the main, the top five brands right now, because I could even say AEW with how young it is, it's like there is a very specific point in their history where they were peak. For other brands that are not WWE, there are points in their history where it's all like, damn, I'd rather watch this than watch WWE right now. AEW's been there, TNA has been there. Ring of Honor, I feel, up until now, has always been there. It's just that they didn't have a TV deal kind of thing. Uh I mean, there are some people who never made it there, probably like. Hey man, look, man, you put some respect on my boy J Leto, bro. But it's like you had to. Well, that's the thing though. With with though when those those are those peak times. If you watch you watch Ring of Honor.

SPEAKER_04

Ring of Honor from like early 2000s to when Bullet Club started invading, it was pretty damn silly.

SPEAKER_03

So when you watch Ring of Honor, does Ring of Honor feel like that peak Ring of Honor to you? Oh, currently? No. No. When we watch WWE, we know what our personal peak WWEs can be.

SPEAKER_00

Like they do this a lot. You know what's funny? This kind of goes peak. This kind of goes back to Is anybody in a peak right now?

SPEAKER_04

I don't think nobody's been peaking.

SPEAKER_00

That's all five. And this is why. I would say, I would say definitely AEW's not at a peak, but they're like, No, no, no.

SPEAKER_03

It's like, it's like every once in a while, like So what AEW is right now, AEW is they're not at a peak. And this actually kind of goes to the video, the the comments that we've that have been blowing up today on YouTube. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're digging themselves out of a valley, right? Exactly. They're not, they're not at a peak. They are doing this right now, which is the reason why, for the more common people who watch, they'll be all like, man, AEW is really good right now. No, AEW isn't really good. AEW is trying, is remembering how to be better. They're remembering how to be good again. And they're starting to do the things that made them good before. And so it's like with WWE right now, WWE, for those who uh uh live in Florida and go to Busch Gardens, they are in Chikra mode right now. All right, 90 degrees straight down for those who don't know what Chikra the roller coaster is. WWE is Chikra. Not not we know Chikra.

SPEAKER_00

I was thinking more of uh Doctor Doom and Marvel Doctor Doom. But see that.

SPEAKER_03

They both had that 90 degree. It's bad. No, no, they're they're they're because no, they're chicra. I mean, I see what you mean with the Doctor Doom thing, but it's like with the Doctor Doom death drop, you either go up or down. Roller coasters, you can go up, down, loop-de-loop, climb up, side to side. But the sequel.

SPEAKER_00

But I still feel that makes sense because then WWE has these moments where, like, say, Over Fammy right now, that's like, oh, this is kind of dope. We enjoy. Oh, this is kind of dope. We and it just dropped. No, no, no. They that I don't agree.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. I don't, I don't, they, they don't, they're not they're just here. They're just here. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

So you're thinking that, okay, they got something good going on. That's how I think Cliff.

SPEAKER_03

Correct. Okay. I see what's going on. That's what they're doing. See, they're not they because it's like they got some good cliff.

SPEAKER_00

But that's the same thing as the dude. But see, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_03

The doom was just up and down.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's a peak, but it's kind of the same thing as a roller coaster. Whether if you're going up like this or you're going up like this, it's still a rise.

SPEAKER_03

But the but the thing is with with uh the reason why I go with the roller coaster analogy is because there are times when they're just riding. There are times where they are where they're just riding. Okay. They're coasting. They're

Smart Fans And Peak Wrestling Expectations

SPEAKER_03

chilling. They're you know what when you're on a roller coaster, then you hit that one part where the roller coaster slows you down a little bit before you go into the rest of the roller coaster. That's that that that exists in wrestling.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. Okay, so with that analogy, you think we're gonna get to the rest of the roller coaster before or after SummerSlam? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00

I I have no faith that that's ever that that's gonna happen. Is that the same thing you feel about what Matt Hardy mentioned earlier or a while back that the TNA is gonna be the second best product in six, what, six months?

SPEAKER_03

So listen, I will not disclose too much on that piece because we're still on the roller coaster, all right?

SPEAKER_00

How much longer did he see having to that roller coaster?

SPEAKER_03

Let me see. You don't even know the original, when was the original post? Hold on. It was sometime in January, like right before, like right as they was getting the the TV deal. And so I thought it was February and they got the TV deal. Was it? I think it was February. It might have been, but I'm giving them from January because that was when they was really getting their things going. So let's see here. We are there. Uh they got, let's see here, because TNA comes on on Tuesdays. No, I mean sorry, Thursdays. So uh after July 2nd, that is the first TNA of the seventh month of this year.

SPEAKER_04

Wait, so they have until the 4th of July to get their stuff together.

SPEAKER_03

Correct. The end of the study is that episode of TNA, which will be on July 2nd. How ready? Now, unless there's a now, unless there's a because I don't know what I I forget how their pay-per-view schedules go. If there is a pay-per-view schedule and on that week of July, then sure. I will give them till that pay-per-view. How ready are you to be disappointed?

SPEAKER_04

I actually want to discuss this.

SPEAKER_03

How ready? How ready am I to be disappointed? Listen, I will not disclose fully on how I feel on this until you know how AEW got their episode?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Tina is going to have it. Will you still be throwing the V1 up after that? Listen, I will love my Hardeys till the day that they die and beyond. Okay? I will not hold whether his words being true or false against him because I still love my Hardy voice. All right. So just because he's wrong.

SPEAKER_04

But anniversary is the 28th of July. I think July. Oh, wait, wait. That's the same thing. Wait.

TNA Versus AEW Date Night Collision

SPEAKER_00

How is that? And then we have Forbidden Door the same fucking night.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, WWE did that on purpose.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that I think that was indeed done by design.

SPEAKER_04

They did that on purpose.

SPEAKER_00

But nobody's trying to choose TNA over fucking AEW.

SPEAKER_04

It's not the same.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, you you're not about to have this discussion with me. Nobody's choosing TNA over AEW. I'm sorry. AEW has a way better pay-per-view. If there's anybody on the market who is giving pay-per-views, it's AEW, okay? It is not TNA, it is not WWE. Those are premium live events.

SPEAKER_04

It's only to try to split your hardcores. It's only trying to support those people.

SPEAKER_00

And it but there's no split. There's no fucking split. But I'm telling you, it is spiteful. That is not even spiteful. You are setting TNA up for failure. That's literally what you're doing. Because again, who is saying I'm going to switch to TNA? Matt Santana, again, great human being. You are not that good to be able to make me swap over there. And to my knowledge, the next factor we have today today. In the August. I will say Mustafa though.

SPEAKER_03

Like I said, when it comes to TNA, they will I will give no available. I will give them their their just deserves at the end after w af the next episode we end up having after uh July 4th. So that's why it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00

Actually lockdown in August.

SPEAKER_04

That's that's uh But will he extend them to two months of Great?

SPEAKER_03

No. No, no, no, no, I'm I am I absolutely will not.

SPEAKER_06

No.

SPEAKER_03

Uh the only way I will maybe what I'll do is because I because I don't remember the exact date of when Matt Hardy like made the video. I'll find it for you. I'll find it for you. But like because I used it. Whatever, whatever, whatever the date was, if it is February, then sure.

SPEAKER_00

Just look up, no, look up when they first aired on AMC. Just look up the episode when they aired on AMC. That's all you gotta do. But what I'm saying is just to also pinpoint real quick, I am not picking on Mike Santana alone, okay? Well, what was it that?

SPEAKER_03

Santana. So it was yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, but real quick, I'm not picking on Mike Santana alone and saying he's he's a bad uh baby face uh champion or anything of that nature. It's because he is the champion. He is supposed to be the face of the company. And as Cody understands, as QB, you can get a lot of the scrutiny. And right now, I prefer watching Ollie over Santana. As I said, I can't even I can't even dismiss it.

SPEAKER_03

As I said, it's because of the fact that like state they have refused to figure out the way to make Santana feel like a star to everyone else. It's like Santana holding the title. You know how they say that that the whole saying of like, you know, rising tides raise all ships. It's like Santana having the belt to me doesn't raise anything. The tides have not changed. And it's like when you look at the playing field of stars, there are uh in TNA as of right now, there are there's like no super big name. What TNA means is for someone to be selfless and be like, I don't care about the money. I just want to come and become the face of this company. And they have a big it'd be like if right oh who? Who knows? Because no one's going to do that without getting the money part of it. Like they need the first person that came to mind, they need someone like uh Kevin Owens.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, no. They need Sami Zayn in uh black and gold, the heart and soul of NXT.

SPEAKER_03

I don't even need, I won't, I won't even say that. They just need they just need someone who is a big name and has a lot of clout. That's what they need. Who that is literally could be anybody. The problem is, those people who it could be are in AEW or WWE.

Who Could Raise TNA’s Star Power

SPEAKER_00

Real quick, where y'all think Aleister Black's going next?

SPEAKER_04

I was about to say that next. I was thinking about that. I'm like, what about Aleister Black Black? Was Murphy already?

SPEAKER_00

He's not he well, Murphy's in AEW still. Still? Yeah. Oh shit. He'd just be going to Australia every once in a while.

SPEAKER_05

Well, apparently he's been hurt.

SPEAKER_00

I know he's you can wrestle in Australia.

SPEAKER_04

I've seen him more on my scene than on TV.

unknown

Got it.

SPEAKER_03

That is true. But it's like, so someone like Aleister Black going into TNA would be huge. Because Aleister Black is an extremely big popular name. All right. Mid-card in WWE, main inventor in TNA. But do you think he would be a star over there? I think so. He would be, because his name is big enough to raise the tide. Like, he might not be great. Like, he might not currently look like he's a, you know, in in the spot of a Cody Rhodes, but that's just because our last images of him is him not doing shit in WWE. But because he's got that, it is uh it's that whole idea, like he's got that WWE stank on him. And so it's going to raise. And so, like, anybody who's got that WWE stank on him and are remotely decent wrestlers, go to TA, instant star, instant champion. Dang, you're right.

SPEAKER_00

Well, well, we'll have to pick up this conversation for another day for sure, because we definitely want to make sure we give our audience a chance.

Final Thoughts And Listener Comments

SPEAKER_00

I want to take some time later on uh to give us a chance to go over some comments and stuff like that. But guys, let us know what your thoughts are in the comments because we can go on for hours about this. This is a lot to put it to some stakes with this, especially with just understanding the realm of what baby faces are, what is the product currently? But we would love to hear you guys in the comments as always. Uh as we are here in the domain of destruction, we are glad to have Ray Zion here as always. And just remember, guys, uh the ring is sacred, the questions are real, and the destruction is guaranteed because I am Sugoy the Monster Coup.

SPEAKER_03

And it's your boy, Swag Switch in the building.

SPEAKER_04

And of course, it is your boy, the Champagne Don Ray Zion. Always representing the house of spades.

SPEAKER_00

Until next time, we'll see you soon.