Ella Taylor: What about the money? Let's talk with a financial planner.

Ella Taylor a financial planner and is the CEO of Ella Financial Advising. She spends her days talking to people all about their money - and more importantly how they are using their money to create the life they want.

Ella Financial Advising's mission is to make financial planning more inclusive and to use investing as a force for planetary wellbeing.

At the core of her work is the belief that money is one of the most powerful tools we have to not only to provide freedom and stability for ourselves, but also to shape the future of our planet.

She believes sustainable investing is not just about avoiding harm, but about actively participating in the transition toward healthier systems—financial, social, and ecological. Through steady, values‑aligned action, Ella Financial Advising supports clients in using their money to care for both themselves and the world they are part of.

Website: ellafinancialadvising.com

EVOLUTION OR REVOLUTION is produced by Courtney Kaplan.

Website: Iconic Leadership Coaching.

Follow me on IG @iconic_owl

Connect on Linked in @courtney-kaplan 

Music by Midwest Got It (IG: midwestgotit)

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Evolution or Revolution. Evolution or Revolution is a podcast about making big changes in your professional life. Our guests give us the insight scoop about how they did it. We hear the origin stories, the wins, the challenges, and we get generous advice that can help you in your own life. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Courtney Kaplan. I'm a coach and I'm a founder of Iconic Leadership Coaching. And I've always been fascinated by these kinds of transformations. As a coach, I work with leaders navigating changes and new expectations at work. Let the stories in Evolution or Revolution inspire you, open your mind, and build confidence that you can make the changes that you need to make as well. Thanks for listening. Hi, it's Courtney. I'm so excited to have you today. I am now in season two of Evolution or Revolution. And there's a topic I really wanted to dive into that's truly the underpinning of any evolution or revolution. That topic is money. It's come up in every episode. People wondering how much does it cost to make a change? How do people afford it? How did they make the change? How much are they spending? How much are they planning and saving? And so today I want to get into that. And my guest is Ella Taylor. Ella is a financial planner and is the CEO of Ella Financial Advising. So Ella spends her days talking to people all about money and more importantly, how they can use that money, how they can use their money to create the life that they want. Her mission is to make financial planning more inclusive and use investing as a force for planetary well-being. Welcome, Ella. Thanks, Courtney. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah. So before we get into it, I was reading on your website as I was preparing for this that you actually started your career as a pastry chef. And so I'm really curious to hear what does financial planning and pastry chef have in common, if anything. What are the things about those two parts of your career that are linked?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Wildly, so much of it. Um, yeah, Pastry Chef is almost all math, which people, you know, like math and science, which people don't really think about. Um also, they're both super creative. I know when you hear financial planning, you do not think creativity. However, it is. It is so creative. When you're creating a plan for like an individual, it's funny, I was as we were getting ready for this, I was thinking about the creative aspects, weirdly, and how a financial plan made specifically for you has to be very creative and made up of like all these different pieces that you wouldn't necessarily think of or be able to like put together yourself because you can't necessarily see how all the pieces align, just kind of on your own, by having someone talk through it and what are your values and your goals. So, yeah, they're both, I think, super creative and I think fun personally.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah, I want to hear that you think that it's fun. That's important. Yeah. Um, and obviously, you know, money is core to so many changes in our lives, and how we relate to money is so wildly different depending on background or experience or beliefs, cultural beliefs, personal goals, um, life lessons that you've had. And so I'm hoping that we can talk a little bit about some of the relationships you've seen with people's relationship to money, mostly the fears, but also the possibilities and maybe some of the common pitfalls that people tend to fall into when thinking, or maybe more importantly, when they're not thinking about money. Yeah. And then to wrap up, maybe you could talk a little bit about how people find a good financial planner. Um, you know, it's a it's a complicated world out there. And I think that a lot of times it's hard to know where to start, or if you're working with someone that you're not really excited about, how to switch. Yep. Yeah, that all sounds great. So um what is a financial advisor? When you think about financial advisor, what does that mean to you? Because I imagine listeners are thinking about some experience they've had with someone. Um, but I'd be curious to hear what does financial advising, what does that encompass?

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Oh man. So I think financial advisor as a term is just kind of a big, broad blanket term, right? It includes like people who just sell stocks or just annuities. You know what I mean? Just basically kind of salespeople all the way over to like a financial planner, right? And I think kind of for our conversation today, what we really want to talk about are financial planners, where you're not just investing the money to make more money, but you're kind of helping people to think about like what are their values? What are their goals? How do they reach these? And then how do they use their resources to actually create that plan to reach their goals? And then I think more importantly, as things change, how do you pivot? How do you think about it? Um, and having kind of a trusted relationship with someone where you can be vulnerable because it is so vulnerable. Um, like I was talking to a client recently and they were like, You're the first person we'd call if we got pregnant. I was like, Well, that's wild. You should probably call your mom, but you know, flattered. But you know, like people tell me everything because money touches on every part of their life. And so I think someone where you can feel vulnerable, who's not judging, where you feel like they're listening. And so a financial planner, I think, is what most people want, and frequently end up with like a person who manages their investments, which are two separate things.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Or not two separate things, but like should overlap, I guess is what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yes. But I I think that instead of the overlap, people have someone who manages investments, but not necessarily the financial planning piece or maybe the basics. You're retirement, you're covered. You did your, you know, you got your um contributions in this year. Yeah. So as someone who talks about finances with people every day, what are some of the things that you see that kind of tangle people up about money?

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Oh man, so many. Um, I think kind of the big ones I see are shame, right? Like the first thing I do with clients is cash flow, where we look at like income and expenses. And literally, I've had maybe two clients who were like, Oh, I feel pretty good. The rest, like, I can't believe I spend so much money. I'm so ashamed. I don't want to show this to you. I don't even want to look at it. Like it was hard for me to even like start to look at it, and I just felt bad, right? And so I think shame is like a huge part of it. So they kind of avoid it, or they a lot of time I worked with this advisor who would be like, put your actual expenses in. You're not on like a water lettuce diet. We need it to actually be like what you're living on, right? And so um shame, I think scarcity, feeling like you don't have enough. Like we talked about this when we met, where we're like, how much is enough? Good question, right? Like, how much is what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Um I agree with both of those points of view that you've got shame, you don't want to look at it, you don't know how to look at it. Um or it's like you're not balancing checks, so it's probably fine, right? Or I'm not overdrawn, so I guess all is well. But that's not quite taking this energy of money that you have and putting it to specific use, um, yeah, either now or for your future.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah. Well, or you see the flip side of it, right? Where people just are like, men die one day anyway, and so they just spend very frivolously and don't necessarily plan. And I think that's also being scared, right? I think all of it kind of comes back to like shame and ego for the most part.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

I think so too. I mean, it would be nice to think that most people have a healthy relationship with money, but it seems like no one does like it's pretty complicated. Like it's pretty complicated. Well, those the your beliefs, I think your beliefs about money kind of come about um without you even realizing it, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Like, oh, for sure. Well, it's like kind of what you see your parents do. Did your parents talk about it? Did they fight about it? Did they have a lot of money but never talk to you about it? Or did they have no money and never talk to you about it? And you just felt that like anxiety all the time, right? And so, and then also uh I find the shame so I mean I understand it, but I also find it so wild because we're not taught about this. You're not taught anything about how to like manage your money, how to think about it, and then we're just supposed to know it. And if we don't, you feel shame. I find it so the disconnect so wild.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah, absolutely. I think then the other thing that's a big wake-up call is when you suddenly might have a partner in your life or a business that you're starting, or some other person or entity or organization that bumps up against your beliefs about money. And it's a real eye-opener, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Right. Yeah, I work with a lot of people who are just getting married or just partnered up and want to have a kid and buy a house and do all these things. And like, how do you combine finances? How do you even talk about finances without like being embarrassed or fighting or you know, like it gives you a safe space to talk about this confide, and then a professional would be like, this is normal, or maybe we should look into that, you know, like kind of somewhere to air it out and create clarity.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Like your job must be partial relationship coach in some ways. So just helping people come together to talk about something that's particularly hard to talk about. I mean, I I would imagine money is one of the major things that people fight about in in relationships.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Oh, for sure. There's so statistics like money and sex are the two that people fight the most about. And yeah, so I dive into the money part apparently.

unknown 11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Yeah. So, you know, I'm uh you're based in the Bay Area. Um, you live out here in Oakland near me, and a lot of your clients work in tech or have tech adjacent jobs in the Bay Area. I mean, a lot of people that live out here do. And I I'm I wonder, I hear a lot of people in my coaching work who are in tech thinking about plan B or thinking about the next chapter or thinking about how and if they could exit their tech job. And I wonder if you hear similar things.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Oh, all the time. Yeah. Well, and also I think, I mean, tech seems to be changing a little bit, but also I think it's like an age thing, right? Where I work with people in their 30s and they're like, I'm making, I don't know, a million dollars a year, right? But then how long is that gonna last? When are they gonna kind of age out of tech? And so, yeah, that. And then also just kind of the stress and the hours and just not necessarily the lifestyle that they want, but the money that they do want.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah, it's like how long is the money gonna last, or how long are you gonna last? One of those things is gonna last things one has to give. One may give, may, yes. Yeah, yeah. So, um, so you do you help people kind of figure out what that next step could look like? Because I feel like when you're working in a job that kind of has a little bit of the golden handcuffs and also demands a lot of your time and energy, yeah, there's not a lot of space to think about what would be next. And that's kind of a core reason I started the podcast is to kind of illustrate for folks what possibilities are, what other people have done. So when people come to you, do are they forthright about wanting to have a next chapter? Or do you kind of ask what's how does that work?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

I think most people are very forthright, right? Like they're kind of clear that they don't want to do this forever or that they can't. Um I think it's two part, like what is the next step? Like, what do they want to do? I think a lot of times that's not clear for people. They just know they don't want to do this. Um, and then kind of what's available to them financially if they did want to switch. And so a lot of it is just planning, like looking at the numbers, diving in, like what are your expenses, what is your income, what is your savings, you know? And then I think the big one, I keep coming back to this repeatedly, is um I don't have a different way of saying it, but kind of like the ego part of it. Where I think people get really caught up in their job being a part of their ego. And some of it is taking a step back and thinking about like what does success mean for you? I remember when I was like a baby financial planner, I worked at this big firm and everyone drove Porsches, and you know what I mean? And they had these big lifestyles, but I was like, I don't actually think that's my idea of success. But it felt so weird to be questioning, like, what what do I want? And so I find that that interesting in my clients to think about like, what do you actually want? Not what do you think your parents want or your peers want, but like you, and actually talking about that and verbalizing it because that's almost always like the elephant in the room, right? Is what everyone else is doing and you feel like you should be doing, as opposed to like what you actually like deep down, what makes you happy and being okay with that, and then planning for it.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Absolutely. I think that our culture is kind of oriented towards comfort and luxury. And what do you want? You want more. You know, why do you want more for comfort and luxury? Which on one hand is like, yeah, of course, that makes a ton of sense. Yeah, exactly. Um, but um, you know, when you actually are in that zone, um, it doesn't always kind of add up to be what you thought it was gonna be. You know, I remember going on a vacation um with my family, and we went to Maui and it was a like a milestone birthday, and we stayed at a really fancy place, and we thought it was just gonna be amazing. And on day one, it was amazing. It was like, wow, the pool has all these things, and you can go out to the beach or the pool, and they'll bring you a drink and all this stuff. But then on day two, we were all like at each other's throats. We were just like, we're bored, I don't like this. This isn't our style. And realizing like in that moment, like, oh, this doesn't match us, even though it's the type of thing that you think, like, oh man, my you know, big birthday. I'm gonna go do this big fancy trip. That that's cool. Enjoy it. But that in that moment we realized we weren't enjoying it. And it's pretty wild to suddenly see, I don't want the Porsche in the parking lot, or I don't need the the fancy, yeah, the fancy resort vacations, just not for me. Right? Even though all your friends are doing it and they're enjoying it. Or they have great pictures of it. I don't know if they're enjoying it or not, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:17

But real questions. You saw it on social media and it looked good.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

That's right. That's right. That's right. So I love this idea of like actually being able to make a plan that lets you broaden what's possible for you in the future. And like I said, I know when folks are in a job that's particularly draining or they're burnt out, it's hard to be imaginative. But even being able to start with something concrete, like the numbers, can sometimes make you realize, wow, we spend a lot on X and we don't really value X, or we spend a lot uh doing this and we don't, that's not really, we don't have to do that. Um, I think that that can be a great starting place for people to realize, wow, I actually have I have options. Yeah. I have some options. So I think a lot of people are nervous to maybe make a financial plan because they don't know what they want, or they maybe they don't feel like they know what the future holds. How do you manage folks that I mean, it's fast changing times? How do you manage those types of twists and turns in people's financial lives?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

It's I mean, it's tricky, right? And well, and it's funny, like something you said just a minute ago kind of struck a chord of creating kind of a more conservative, like reasonable plan. I think that is the antithesis of what we're kind of taught what we like taught to want, right? Where I find it with clients that so often what they'll be like, well, my uncle's portfolio made 40% last year. And I'm like, great for your uncle, but like is he meeting his goals, right? And also like how much risk is he taking? And so it's so easy to look at other people's plans and then feel bad about what you're doing, right? And so I think a good financial plan is actually pretty boring. And so, kind of the way to get people to start and to think about it and to think about the changes is to create, kind of look at the risk. How much risk can you take? How much risk should you be taking, and then create a plan from there, right? Where almost every prospective client call I have, they ask, like, what is your portfolio return? And I'm like, that is such an interesting question. Because if you're, I don't know, 55, getting close to retirement, have really high expenses, maybe your return isn't shooting the moon, right? It's a pretty good emergency cash reserve. It's putting more toward like bonds and cash so that we have that money we know available when you quit working. Your kids' college fund is relatively conservatively allocated because you know you need that money in the short term, right? And so it's really looking at what is the risk so that when things change, you can pivot. Where when clients lose their jobs, I always think they're gonna fire me. They're like, we need to cut expenses and really hone in, right? And that's when they actually like lean into planning and they're like, oh, thank God we had this plan. Like you helped us think that we need an emergency cash reserve. And so we have that like three to six months in cash and bonds, and then our portfolio isn't like super aggressive, and we have money that we can pull out of the market, and so they have this plan so we can easily kind of pivot, and they don't feel like, oh my God, I'm like, I didn't plan for these changes. And then also to your point of like when you're initially creating the plan, a lot of times we're like, okay, so you'll work making X amount until you're 55, and then you'll cut back and you'll make X amount until whatever, right? And so it's being really clear about what your expenses are, what your income is going to be, and then kind of building the life around that rather than like already having the life and being like, oh shit, we need to make X amount of money and have such a high return and and and because then your risk is so high that it's not reasonable and you're really stuck. And like things don't go well when your life changes. Whereas if we've planned and we have like a relatively conservative place and then have everything kind of built upon that, when things change, like you're okay. We've thought about this, we've planned for it, and you don't feel like adrift and scared. I mean, you're still scared, but less.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Well, it's interesting because even the I love, I like how you lay it out the plan is really black and white of like, how much do we need to have? Where are we in life? How much are we gonna spend? I would say that it's one of those things that sounds easy, but can be kind of complicated to do, which is why it's really useful to have a planner or someone in your corner to kind of help you think through those things. Because the first thing I know certainly in my relationship, like the first thing we're like, great, how much are we gonna spend on X? And my number is really high and my husband's is really low. So then it's like, okay, so what do we put in the spreadsheet, dude? Like there's not there's no agreed upon number you here. Um, and so I like that uh when you talk about planning, there's kind of like a lot of hashing out that needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Oh, for sure. It's like all negotiating.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Well, and then also having the clients negotiate with themselves, right? Because a lot of times they want me to be the negotiator. And me to like tell them, but like, I don't know your life, I don't know what you want. I could tell you theoretically how much you possibly sustainably could spend, but like that is only like a very small part of the plan. And then I think to your point also, seeing how people like don't think about certain things or underestimate risk or overestimate, you know, like there's all these things that we really do need to talk about and think about. Like, you're not thinking about like your Medicare expenses, yeah. Right? Like that needs to be put into a plan. You're not thinking about like, if you're a lesbian couple, your need for long-term care is significantly higher than like a heterosexual couple, right? And so all these different things that we need to be thinking about and discussing of how are we gonna fund this? Like, what does that look like? And having someone there to be like, college costs increase 5% per year, you know, whatever it is, right? And so thinking through and having a professional kind of put it together for you. Well, and full disclosure, when I was pregnant and we were looking, no, I was I we I had already had my daughter, she was like three months old, so I definitely wasn't sleeping. We wanted to buy a house, and I put together a financial plan, and thank goodness I had my mentor look at it. So he was like, This is so conservative. You guys aren't even gonna get a house because you've put in the biggest safety net I've ever seen in my life that you don't need, right? And so having that second set of eyes to be like, that doesn't make sense. Like, let's talk through this.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, sometimes someone who's seen a little bit more than you have at your stage in life. So I remember having kids. I wanted to have a family, but I never really knew what daycare costs and what childcare costs. It's exorbitant, it's incredibly expensive, especially in the Bay Area. Especially in the Bay Area. And so then, like, you know, you're learning about these costs. Like, and I mean, someone's listening to this being like, Really? You didn't investigate the cost of child care? No, absolutely not. Um, and so now then I, you know, having young children, I thought, well, this is the expensive time, you know, all the child care and the expenses with child care. This will go away soon. Well, now I have two teenagers, and guess what? It's still expensive. Like teenagers are expensive. So there's like these life phases where you may not have the visibility into the costs or the requirements, or to your point, you may way overestimate that or way underestimate, underestimate that. And so having some kind of a plan, even if it's a plan that you can then adjust, right? Oh, I assumed it was going to cost this much, it's actually much more or much less. We need to make some tweaks and changes.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Well, I think you're always adjusting it. A plan is never ever ever static. Ever.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

How often do you think that people should look at a plan when you're saying it should always be adjusted and it's never static?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

We look at it minimum of two times per year. And not like we run all the numbers, but like how's your cash flow? How's X, Y, and Z going, right? Because everything changes. And especially I find this may be everywhere, but like in the Bay Area, like insurance is constantly changing, people's jobs are constantly changing, like your bonus structure, like you used to get 30%, and this year you got 10. What are we gonna do? You know, it's just it's just constantly changing. Housing costs are so high here that also like doing renovations, doing all these things that like we planned for and now it's double the cost. I have two clients right now doing renovations and we're going through that. And so yeah, I I don't you don't have to rerun the numbers every time, but just kind of a check-in, check in what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Yeah, yeah. So, do you have any clients or in your experience of people again doing this kind of evolution or revolution moment where they've been in one career or one industry for a long time and they want to make a big change? Um can you give us or share any insight that you have and what would be useful if somebody's thinking, I can't, I don't want to be in this industry forever. I've done it for 15 or 20 years, I don't want to keep doing it for another 15 years. Should people consider that they may need to stay in that role and save before they can make a big change? Do they need to immediately cut costs or be willing to cut costs? Is there anything that you've seen that's really useful if someone's thinking about making a big change and moving from a more consistent, maybe high salary?

SPEAKER_00 26:54

That's a good question. I think the automatically cutting costs isn't what I would go to. I think a lot of people go there, right? Of like, ah yeah, cut cut, you know what I mean? Like that'll fix it. Where I think back to the like people feeling embarrassed about their cash flow or like ashamed about their cash flow. I'm like, if it works, then it maybe it's not shameful, right? If it's like going with your values and your goals and you can sustain it, sure, why not? Like you don't have to cut just to cut. So I have these two clients, I think I told you about them, and they um wanted to take a long sabbatical, right? They made a lot of money in tech, and the other one was he made, you know, a decent salary, but not in tech. And they were both like, you know what, we want to travel around the world for a year, and we want to just like live it up and then we'll come back, figure out what we want to do. Um the number of scenarios that we ran was crazy, but it gave them the confidence to be able to, you know, quit their jobs, do what they wanted to do, but then also to your point, like adding in the flexibility of like, what if they get back and they can't get jobs? Or what if they come back and don't want to work in tech? How much do they need to make? What if they come back and they want to buy a house, right? Like blah, blah, blah, blah, and all these different scenarios. And so we created the plan, but then we were also making big changes to the portfolio so that it could cover their lifestyle, cover any changes to the plan. Because we were like, you know what, we can invest more aggressively in the future and have those higher returns and you know, theoretically, and all of that. But right now, let's really kind of scale back, have it be more manageable so that we know that you're okay while you're doing this change. And so also interestingly, they went and they did their sabbatical, and halfway through they were like, turns out we don't love traveling as much as we thought. We want to come home, we miss our friends, we miss our home base. And so they came back and we completely readjusted the plan again. And so, and then they while they were back here, they had more epiphanies and we readjusted, right? And so it's just as like ongoing iteration, but they were able to do what they wanted, but also like not worry about the money part.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I love hearing that story because I think it's illustrating something that I see so often is someone will almost hold a version two or an alternate plan or an alternate path as a fantasy that can never be achieved.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Like they'll state, this is what I love, or this is what I enjoy, but that can never happen because I'll never have enough money to do that. And that could be true, but I like that you ran so many scenarios for your client, or that you really get creative and start to think, well, maybe we could do it this way, or if we did it this way, here's the risks, here's the rewards, here's there are multiple ways to get to a destination. And by the way, this next phase in life that feels like the big relief that's going to be the real solution to things may or may not be right, right? It may be, oh my God, this is a perfect fit. This is amazing. And it may be you go on the sabbatical and you're like, okay, let's turn it around. I'm ready to go home.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Well, and I think the other part that was really nice about these clients is they they got a lot of clarity around the kind of lifestyle that they wanted and what they would need to do to make that lifestyle work. And for them, it was not working 60 hours a week, making a million dollars, you know, whatever it was. It was we want like a nice small home that we can like enjoy. I want to work maybe 30 hours a week. And so they were really like willing to look at the numbers and you know, kind of downscale the like big dream to fit kind of the lifestyle that they wanted and have a smaller budget for that lifestyle, as opposed to having to make a lot of money. They were so open to making these trade-offs, which I find so admirable.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Which doesn't feel like a trade-off if it's satisfying, right? If it's something that you really value that's really satisfying to you, and you cut out some of the expenses that didn't really matter or the things that aren't as important to you, it doesn't feel like a huge sacrifice. It feels more like a focusing in on the life that's a better fit for you.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Oh, for sure. I think back to the like the world is built for like luxury and convenience, right? When I initially do work with someone, we do cash flow. And we also look at like what are your values? What are your priorities? So frequently there's like a misalignment. I mean, and every single like priority sheet, the top two are freedom and security. Like they flip-flop, but those are every single time, those are the top two that people have. And then we look at their budget, and 90% of their money spent on Amazon, right? And I'm like, this is wild. This is like, and so some of that is really being intentional with your spending and really like aligning with your priorities and not just like ease and cheapness, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah, that's interesting. Um, freedom and security, it's like kind of two sides of the same coin, right? Like I want to be free and do what I want, but I want to be safe and not take a risk. So, how do we like find the right mix for us? That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. I know a big um turning point for me was when I was working um full-time at Meta and did a coaching workshop. Um, and they asked you to name what are your values. And we're talking about a values aligned life, and my values were, you know, family and community and um friends. And then I realized that in that moment in my life, I didn't see my friends. I was too busy working and too tired, and things were, you know, I was traveling a lot. I wasn't involved in my community at all. And my family, certainly, I spent time with my family, but I never felt like I spent enough time with my family and was basically financially supporting them, but not there as much as I wanted to be physically, emotionally present with them. And that was a really big um moment of clarity for me. If these are your values and this is how you're actually spending your time and energy, something's got to give what might be possible or how might you want to change how you're living? Because a lot of times, time is the scarce resource more than more than money. We don't think about it that way, but um it's true. And so, right about that time, my father got ill and passed away kind of in quick success succession there. And I realize time being a hugely valuable component that we kind of ignore and think we've got forever. That really put my um plans into high gear to make to make a change. Did you meet with your financial planner? Girl, I I had a financial planner that was terrible. I want to get into that. I want to get into how to find how to pick a financial planner because I had a financial planner, was recommended by a friend. I hadn't had a ton of experience working with financial planners. I had done my own budgeting or, you know, had maybe a low, low-key planning support, but this was like the real deal. And this person seemed friendly and smart enough, I guess. And I remember they came and met with me at work one day. We had a meeting at my office at work. And at Meta, they have those kitchens that had all the snacks in the kitchen. And this person at the end of our meeting said, Oh, can I go through the kitchen and grab a snack? My kids love the dried mangoes that um, I think they have them here. And I'm thinking, like, yeah, sure, come on through. Let's grab the dried mango for your kids or whatever. This man opened his briefcase and dumped the whole basket of dried mango snacks into his briefcase.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

I love this story so much.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

I was horrified. I mean, look, I'm sure it's not like hitting the bottom line of you know a huge gigantic corporation or anything, but just to see this person's integrity, like just I was like, oh my God, I'm trusting my this person with my money. And this is what he just did with the dried mangoes. So that was the end. That was the end of that. And then I was just kind of like, oh God, now what do I do? So because it's a big deal, right? Like if you find a financial planner, there's your money is in accounts, and you're meeting with that person and you're downloading information and creating this relationship. So if that needs to change, it can be a huge pain. But I'll tell you what, those mangoes went into that briefcase and I was like, we are done. We are done here.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Well, and how gross. It was you know all of it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

It was wild. Yeah. So if someone's out there listening and they're like, yeah, no, I've got a financial plan-ish. Um, I use software or I have somebody who's okay. Um, or I don't have anybody. Uh, you know, I don't I don't have anybody that I work with. How do you find someone good?

SPEAKER_00 36:49

That is a great question. Um, I would recommend, like we said at the beginning, I would go with a financial planner, right? Like if you want to create a plan and you want someone who can kind of help you with ups and downs and isn't just managing your portfolio, you want a planner, right? And you don't want someone who just works at like not to disparage what other people do, but someone who, you know, like people will bring to me and they'll be like, My broker at XYZ made me this plan, and literally just put like, did they do cash flow with you? They're like, they asked me what my expenses are. And I'm like, how do you know what your expenses are? They're like, Well, I guessed, right? Or they assumed based off of my like demographic or whatever. And I'm like, oh my God, that's that's nothing to do with you at all. So anyway, I would pick an actual planner, someone you can trust. Like I was saying, you're gonna feel vulnerable, right? Like your parent will pass away, and you'll need someone that you feel comfortable calling who can kind of talk you through this, or like, you know, all these big life changes. I'm involved in those. And you want like someone with integrity, someone you can trust, someone you can talk to, someone you can be open with, and someone who has knowledge, right? You want someone with experience who ideally is a certified financial planner, which means they put in the time to get all the training. Um, and then I think it's really up to like, do you want a really big firm where you could work with like many different people? Or people who work with me want like a person to call one person. Yeah. Yeah. I know them, they know me. Like I have a very small practice of people that I know really, really, I mean, really well, right? Like we I know them so well. And then the last thing I would, or I guess two more things. One is you want someone who's kind of values aligned, right? Like you talked about at the beginning, where I we only do environmentally sustainable investing. That's our bottom line. And so we do philanthropy, sustainable investing. And so if someone wants to invest in oil and gas, they're probably not really our people, right? We want people where they feel like their values are kind of embodied in their advisor, right? So there's that. And then the other thing I think is like, what type of relationship do you want? Where I only work with people ongoing. Like they're like, when does our engagement end? And I'm like, well, probably when one of us passes away, like we're just gonna be together forever. Um, you know, there's that. And then some people want to do everything on their own and they just want a plan. And so then I would work with like an hourly financial planner where that you go to them, you say, Hey, here's my questions, here's my thoughts. They create a plan and you go out and you implement it. And then you can go back and re-up it. Um, and so that's kind of what I would look for is like trust, values alignment, an actual financial planner, and then someone that like you want to talk to. Because we're gonna do a lot of talking together in life and in time.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

I like that you brought up the values aligned um investing too, because I think that's something, especially if maybe if you're a little discouraged about the direction of the world sometimes today, to be able to know that your money is creating a world that you believe in, or at least not supporting the things that you don't believe in, that can be huge. And I think that a lot of times when you go in and talk to someone at a big name investment firm, you know, they'll have funds called the whatever, whatever 250 or the whatever, whatever 920. And you don't really know what's in there. I want to feel good about putting my money into things that I believe in that are important to me.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Yeah. Well, and I think it's a big misconception that you're giving up returns by doing sustainable investing, because that's not true. And a lot of it just a segue for two seconds, is I think a lot of people want to do good with their money, but they feel like by not investing in like oil and gas or certain things that they're not gonna have the same return. But I think part of it is thinking about like we were talking about what makes a good plan, and a good plan is like risk assessment, right? And part of it, I think about oil and gas and all these industries, they're gonna kind of die, hopefully, and probably die at some point, right? And so also the risk that they're posing to the environment and our world, and then additionally, companies that don't believe in climate change aren't making smart decisions about where they're building their next facility, about how their supply chain is set up. And so I think a lot of it really is I do it because I believe in it, right? Like I I love the environment, that's my bottom line. But like it's also just I think smart investing and thinking about kind of the risk of things that are happening in the world and how is your portfolio aligned to manage that risk over time?

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then um, do you also cover people kind of making putting their money towards charities or community outcomes or I don't know, political parties or whatever it is? Once you've got your basics covered, you've got your basics covered. How else are you using your energy and your money to create the things that you want to see or the things that you want to have happen in the world?

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Oh, for sure. I mean, kind of we need a better analogy, but I think of it like a fork, which I do need a better analogy. A fork. A fork. Um, so I also like eating, so I don't like this kid, you know. Um, but I think kind of the big things are like how are you spending your time and your energy, right? Is that aligning with your values? Like to your point earlier of yeah, you're working all the time, but you're not doing like all the things that you say you love, right? And so being able to think through what does that look like? And I think a lot of times getting clarity, like what are your actual values? Um, because I think frequently we do not know. And so talking through that, aligning your investments, not only like your stock market investments, but also we offer um like private equity and alternatives and all these different things that directly target um like communities and areas that we really want to support to make change. So through your investing. And then the last one is like philanthropy, right? Like, where are you donating your money? We have a philanthropic advisor on staff that we work with who helps you think through like, how do you make the most change? Where do you donate to how much can you donate is part of what we do in our planning? Um, and then like, do you don't do it over time? And then also, I think like the part that we're not talking about is like the tax implications of all of these things. And so being really thoughtful about how do we manage taxes and you know, what does that look like within the Plan. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Thanks for addressing that because I think so often, you know, these conversations can really be centered on like covering the bases, having a plan to support me and my family. But at a certain point, I think a lot of folks would like to do more or have thought that they would be doing more with the financial resources they have, but it's hard to know where to start or what's enough or what's too much, or it's complicated sometimes. And so being able to have a plan that you're satisfied with could really make a difference there.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Well, and I think it just makes you feel good and kind of safe. Like we were talking about like the freedom and security thing. I think a lot of times people feel like they're beholden to do one thing with their money and being able to talk through like different options and have that be okay and know that they're still doing a good job is I think really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah. I love that. There's so much, um, I there's just so much emotion about money. I thought it would be a great TV show to just have like a reality show where you just open up somebody's bank account and just get real about how they spend their money. Like I would just be fascinated.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Let me tell you.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

I would just be fascinated to see like how much do people spend? Like I or you hear someone who spends something in a way that you don't spend it or they don't spend in a way that you do spend, and it's just so puzzling, right? Like it's wild.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

It is so crazy. Well, and then also I think there is a lot of, I mean, maybe we're seeing it less, but kind of shame around spending in a certain way, right? Where I have these clients who make significantly more and have significantly more than a lot of their peers, and so they don't tell them full disclosure about their vacations, or they don't take these vacations that they want because they feel like they'll be judged. And it's so, yeah, it's so fascinating to see the way that like money shows up in people's lives and how they behave. Yeah, I find it so fascinating. It's like my favorite, it is like a reality show. And then also the other thing is everyone cries in financial planning meetings. Everyone. It's so emotional, it's so like everyone cries.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Everyone cries, yeah, because it's yeah, if you're not fighting with your spouse, then you're trying to figure out what to do, or remembering some painful money moment, or feeling the shame and regret of money you spent, or whatever has happened. Yes, there's so many reasons to cry in a financial planning meeting. My gosh.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Yeah, yeah. It's wild. It's wild. It's I think it's fun at some point to be able to talk about it and dream bigger, right? Like we were talking about like the things that hold people back and kind of the shame and all these things. But I think the flip side of that is having clarity and understanding allows you to do these things. Like I had these clients where we started working together and they have a lot of money and they don't they don't understand what that means to their lifestyle, right? And so they wanted to move to Hawaii, they wanted to do these things, but they got like fear and insecurity around what they had was holding them back, right? And we're working together, and I'm like, oh, of course you could move. Like, I see you know reason why you cannot move, right? A lot of times when you do have that clarity and we and it takes so long, we go over it and over it and over it and over it, and then the market will dip and they'll get scared and we'll go over it again, right? And over and over and over and over, and uh so that they can feel comfortable doing these things and feeling safe and free to do whatever they want.

unknown 47:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Well, you don't real you don't think about it, but like no matter how much money you have, it's much easier these days to see evidence of other people with more money than you. Like Instagram and social media and TV shows or whatever, or whatever, you can look around and see more of that, more at least the external imagery of it. Who knows how much money people actually have, but you see you're you're exposed to more um variety in that respect. Where, I mean, at least when I was a kid, like you grew up in a certain kind of neighborhood and you didn't know anybody richer and you didn't know anybody poorer. You just lived in your little space there.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Well, or there were the rich people, and you weren't necessarily like vying to be them. You know, it was really at my last firm, we worked with a bunch of lesbian couples and they all knew each other. And so I couldn't like disclose who was who and who was doing what, but this couple came in and they were like, We have a mortgage and we think we should pay off our mortgage because Deb and Susie don't have a mortgage, and we want to, you know, and they seem very successful. And I couldn't tell them that Deb and Susie can't retire because they paid off their home and yeah, they don't have a mortgage, but they don't have enough money to meet their goals and what they're doing. Whereas you, yes, you have a mortgage, but you also have a very sustainable retirement, right? And so I'm always talking about like you're looking at other people's finances from the outside and yours from the inside, and they're completely, completely different. So yeah, you never ever ever know unless you talk very candidly with your friends, which I do, but other people even your friends are sometimes a little bit, you know, a little bit dodgy about it.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

I remember being probably in my late 20s in San Francisco. I had a good job and you know, I was working hard and I was really ambitious and stuff. And my friend always had like new clothes and had a really cool apartment and had all these things. And I was like, wow, I must be terrible with money and she must be really good with money. Well, she had a huge trust fund, but I didn't even know what a trust fund was. Like, you know, your parents can give you money. Are you kidding me? But like the judgment was all about, you know, me. What's my problem? Why can't I live like this? I went into some credit card debt, kind of trying to live like that. Like, well, she can do it, I can do it. Um, and then, like you said, you don't realize what's going on behind the curtain there. Oh, ever. Ever, ever, ever. Ever. So I love it. And I also love this point that financial planning is not just the shame and the vulnerability and taking a look at a spreadsheet and crying over every transaction that you've made in the last six months. Sure, that's part A. But part B is the the future, the possibilities in the future. Yeah. And um, feeling like you're in alignment with your values, what you want, what's possible. If it can't happen next year, maybe it happens in three years, or maybe it happens in six years. One of my guests on the pod talked about his dream and how he and his partner saved for six years for their for their dream. And sometimes I think it's easy to assume, oh, I can't do it now, I'll never be able to do it. But with a little bit of planning and looking out to the future, it's definitely a lot more is possible with that kind of a plan.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

A lot of times it just having a plan kind of prompts you to into action, right? It helps you know how much you need to save, where you need to save. And then because I find a lot of people don't save because they don't have clarity about why they're saving for what? Yeah. What am I save about? What do I save if my retirement's 40 years away? Who cares? Right. But like if I want to do something else uh in the foreseeable future, yeah, that's easier to save for because then you can really have that values alignment. And we didn't talk about, but I'm also a life coach. And so some of that is helping people think through like how to do this behavior change, you know, all of that to get from point A to point B.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

Yeah. We can intellectually know things, but then not actually physically change the way that we're being, right? It's like, yeah, I get it. That makes a lot of sense. And then we continue on our happy, merry, misguided path. Um, yeah, that's amazing. Well, this has been so fun to be able to talk to you a little bit about money and kind of the power of being able to have a plan, finding a planner that's aligned with your values, the possibilities of doing that, and recognizing that just if you're crying in one of these financial planning meetings, you're not doing it wrong. Everyone is crying. Everyone is, yeah, everyone's having a tense exchange of opinions with their partner in those moments, kind of getting aligned in in ways that you may not have been aligned, and having that neutral third party to help guide through and stay on track can be a huge advantage. Ella, I'm gonna put your um link to your website in the show notes so that people can find you if they want to reach out and work with you or talk to you further. Um, is that the best way for people to contact you?

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Yeah, there's a link on my website to schedule a call. Great. And then oftentimes, if I am not a good fit, I'm happy to refer people to other people who are a good fit.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Because I guess you're you know other people that you can refer to.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Yeah. And people that you trust, right? Because not everyone's on the up and up.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Some people steal all the dried mango out of the basket and you don't want that.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Weirdly.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Why?

unknown 54:01

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

Just fundamental poor judgment. Which is which is very nerve-wracking when that person has access to your entire financial future. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Oh, yeah, because are they rating it to buy mangoes?

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Or anything. Yes, or anything. I don't want to know. Um, so thanks so much for spending time with us. I'll put that contact information in the show notes if people want to reach out. I'm thrilled to be able to talk with you because we've known each other for a couple of years and I've always admired the way that your firm's mission is positioned and how you're trying to connect people with their values, not only in the plan, but in the investing or the giving or all aspects of their financial life, which I think is incredibly powerful. So thank you again so much, Ella. Yeah, thank you. Have a great day.

unknown 54:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Hey, it's Courtney. This is Coach's Corner. I just got off my call with Ella, and I'm just so excited that we're able to have that conversation. I mean, money is a strange thing because, on one hand, it's a spreadsheet or a plan or something that's, you know, it comes down to numbers, but on the other hand, it's so emotional. There's so much emotion and judgment and shame and possibility and difference of opinion and family beliefs and cultural beliefs, so much wrapped into money. And so I was especially excited to have Ella join me because she really works with all kinds of people. Part of her mission is diversity, aligning people's money with their values, and kind of taking a different take on financial planning than maybe a more traditional like investment house. So if you're somebody who's kind of wondering like what would be next in my world, and you're busy or you're feeling a little burnt out, a little crispy, or you're worried that you might lose your job, find a financial planner that you can trust. It's worth making the time, it's worth that uncomfortable moments of kind of revealing all the money things to that person in order to be able to sleep better at night, in order to be able to find a path that you're excited about moving forward in order to realize what might be possible for you that you haven't really allowed yourself to consider before, you know. Um like I said, I feel like money is something that we consider as the most scarce resource we have when actually time is the most scarce resource that we have. And so if we can look at the money that we have and put it towards things that reflect how we want to spend our time and energy, use it to work in ways that are aligned with our values, aligned with the things that are important to us, it's incredibly exciting and inspiring to see what might be possible, right? But sometimes it takes a little nudge from someone outside of our own bubble of our own mind or our own, you know, relationship habits or patterns to help us really explore, hey, look, if there's something you want to do, let's figure out how to do that and figure out all the ways that that might be able to happen for you. So just wonderful talking with Ella. I'll try and have her back on sometime in the future because I think that this conversation of money and working through some of the emotions of money is just fundamental to any evolution or revolution that you might want to create in your own life. So, again, thank you for listening. Um, please share it with a friend or two who might enjoy the pod and be true to yourself. Thanks for listening to Evolution or Revolution. If you're interested in learning more about my coaching work, please go to my website at iconicleadershipcoaching.com to read more about how I work partnering with people like you to become more grounded and reconnected to their peace and power. You don't have to leave your job to make things better. We can work to help you to develop a more settled nervous system in order to stay with what's happening instead of reacting to it. Please share it or leave a review. It helps people like you find us. Check out the show notes for more resources and more information.