Corporate Leadership and Beyond with Mitch and Bonnie Rudin

Tune in to hear from our good friends Mitch and Bonnie Rudin.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in to another episode at Benchmark Studios. We have two really special guests today. Guests that came the whole way down from New York. We have an FM connection, which we'll talk about, but they made a trip today to join me and Nate on Benchmark Studios. So we have Mitch and Bonnie Rudin with us. We really appreciate their leadership. They have supported the Benchmark program and believed in our mission, but their work extends far beyond the work here. It extends to communities in New York and beyond, both professionally and through their philanthropy. And we're going to talk about a lot of that today. But we're just grateful that you both, in all of the things that you do, would give a little bit of your time to us. We think you have a lot to share with our audience, and we think there's a lot we can learn from you. And that's what Nate and I are going to try and tease out today. So, Mitch and Bonnie, I just can ask you if you could just start by sharing with our audience a little bit about who you are, maybe what you do, what work matters to you, and then we'll get into all the specifics later.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

Okay. Thank you for having us, both of you. I'm Bonnie Rudin, and I'm here today with my husband Mitchell, who is an FM graduate, and we're celebrating the 50th uh anniversary of his uh graduation, so it's going to be a nice weekend. And we've been here before to meet Will and uh Nate, and very impressed with what they do here, and we're happy to join you. So I um I am a speech and language pathologist by education and profession, and I did that for several years. And now uh when my kids were young, I ventured into some other things. I'm also involved with a bunch of philanthropies, um, one of which is the Boys and Girls Club of Mount Vernon, which is near the Bronx. And uh we are dedicated to helping this very underserved community make a safe place for the children to go after school, both young youngsters and the teenage group, which is a very important part, as I know you all are aware. Um and we're in the process now of building a new building, which will be nice, and uh we're excited to have a new beautiful place for the kids to come. Um we're involved with uh a school down in Florida that is a school for the performing arts, also, that uh kids from different uh neighborhoods and backgrounds are you know have to audition to come to. It's for the performing arts and the visual arts. Uh Mitchell, you'll talk a little bit more about that because he's on the board there. Um and we're just always trying to see how to make this world a little bit of a better place, especially for children. Um, even since our our youngest son played basketball in third grade, he was in a program in Porchester, New York, an underserved program, and he became friendly with several of the boys that came from families with no fathers, sometimes no mothers, and we sort of took them under our wing to help them in all aspects of their life, including helping them get into move into their college uh when they went to school and get them set up in their dorm room. And and the joy and the pride and the um feeling you get from seeing a young man who, young boy who was so troubled with no family, grow up and have a successful college career and go on to have a good profession. There's nothing better, you know, to see that. So um we hope to continue to work in areas that can help this population.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah, and you are. Yeah, thanks, Bonnie.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

That's a really good background. So I'm fortunate in a number of ways, but uh we've been married for 42 and a half years and we're best friends. And I'm also fortunate in that I entered an industry, the real estate industry, that it is generally philanthropic. It may be for its own interests, but of our generation, uh we got involved early with the number with the number of not-for-profits and a number of causes. And uh particularly fortunate is that we got involved together. So at the moment we're on eight boards together. Eight boards, uh not not necessarily in combined, not necessarily together. Um we we do share a lot of notes uh about things that are common interest. Uh I was on a call yesterday for the board that I've been longest serving on, a group called St. Francis Friends of the Poor that houses the homeless, and realized I'm coming up on my 45th year, not on the board, but engaged with that with that organization. But uh I also want to talk about how how we connected. Yep. Uh, because there was a great lesson in that. Uh during COVID, I was asked to do a podcast by uh uh FM. And Will uh immediately sent me a handwritten note, which is a great thing to do. I mentally said I needed to respond to this, promptly put it in a pile and it got misplaced. But when I found it, uh that minute I responded, I sent an email and and and Will got back to me right right away. And I always talk about, you know, there are various lessons in in life that are important. And one I we've always told our kids and and their friends is put yourself in a position for something good to happen. And every now and then it happens. And and Will, by reaching out, taking the time, and also by differentiating yourself by sending a handwritten note, which I which certainly works with our generation, but I think it works with every generation. Um, in this case, uh you piqued my interest, and it led us to visiting you last year, um and and and not even hesitating uh as soon as we decided to come down to let you know that we'd be here and figure something out.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

That's a really good lesson for for a lot of our students to hear too. It you know, I thought that it you had forgotten about it. I knew how busy you were, but people don't forget about things like that. And I think that's if someone doesn't write back to you right away, you just wait. I had no idea when I would hear from you, but here we are. So I'm glad you shared that. I I want to begin just by talking a little bit about your lives together as you were both growing in leadership, Mitch and the real estate industry and Bonnie and the work that you were doing with speech pathology. How how did you balance your careers and your family and your time together? A lot of people today struggle with that. How how did both of you manage? You've both been very successful. How did you manage the family and that piece as well?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

What's the key? What's the key?

SPEAKER_04 7:04

You know what? There's always time for things that are really important. And if there's things that you want to do that you have to give up because you need to be somewhere else to help other you j you just give it up. It it works out. Somehow it all works out, and I think um you just you just make that time, you carve that out.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Would you say you have to do you make the time, but prioritization is really important. And and it's it's you know, it's hard at every age to say what I want to be so many years out, but it's you know, I always try and tell people, think about where do you want to be five years out from now. You know, if you if you know if you're you know if you graduated college and you're you know you're in a you've gone off and you're living with three people in a in a in a small apartment, you know, is your goal to have your own apartment. Whatever, what whatever it may be. Is it your goal to go on a on a vacation? Is your goal to have a family? And you know, we worked really hard. Uh and some and sometimes you have to make decisions. So I was, you know, for a long part of my career. Uh I traveled a lot. So I wasn't there for the midweek practices. Uh I rarely went to a kids practice. Uh I was there on the weekends. Um, but I wasn't we weren't those parents that coached little league or coached you know basketball. But we were there when it mattered, and but and actually in our case, our kids appreciated it more. Uh I think when you when you feel you have to do everything, you set yourself up for failure. Because if you want if you're gonna go to every practice, every recital, you know, your your child or whoever it may be, you know, starts to expect it, and you're only gonna as opposed to to being there in the important mode. And and and we've been both very good about prioritizing family work, philanthropy, and being able to bring that together. Uh it's not always easy. You do miss things. Uh I made um a career decision uh at one point, uh, which if I was uh you know comp 100% dedicated to my career, I I I was asked to to move from one role to another. Uh it was a great role. Um it was from a national global role to a uh New York region. Uh I realized that it was gonna change my career trajectory within the firm. On the other hand, uh our son Ben, who had a terrific basketball career in high school and college and played a year overseas, uh, it was gonna enable me to see most of his college games, uh, which had I been on the road, it wouldn't have happened, and I wouldn't have traded that for anything that you can't get back.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

So it sounds like like in and when when the important decisions came, you guys chose each other, you chose family. That's what like a lot of the your decisions kind of um decided on, like the deciding factor was family, right?

SPEAKER_04 10:35

Would you say yeah, definitely. I would say that was exactly well put that we we just made those decisions, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

When it was like, hey, look, we could take this job and go over here, or we can stay and I can make it to his college games. That's that's exactly what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

And I I see Mitchell uh advising certain people in the in in different careers that were making changes to focus on the time the kids are there till twelfth grade. I mean, then they leave. I mean, our son played in college, so we kept watching him at games another four years and then overseas. But um yeah, those those twelve years, you know, mm be there.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:14

Be there then, you know, not look back and say, Wish I could have, wish I stayed, wish I saw. You know, so maybe some of the people that he speaks to and gives advice because a lot of people come to him for, you know, thoughts about career and life, and you know, and he's pretty wise and always has good comments and thoughts for these people. And I think that that makes a difference. And people that have done taken his advice were always said, I'm glad I did it you're that way.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Right. But but connected to it is thinking about family in terms of your career choices, right? What you want to achieve for your family. So I I remember during during COVID, and and one of the great things, if you see someone doing something smart, copy it. Yeah, yeah. And and there was a CEO of financial service firms who you know was uh I work in New York City, and he once a month would randomly take out 10 to 15 people, just whoever was around. For lunch. For lunch. You know, at 1130, his assistant would send out whoever it is. So whether it was the you know, a top-level executive, or whether it was someone who just started, or whether it was an administrative assistant, first to respond. So I said, I like that idea. And uh I saw to copy it. Once a month I did the same thing. At 11:30, notice would go out, first 12 to respond. Let's go. Got a table over there. And I remember one of these discussions was just the question that you had asked. And I said, look, we live in a very nice community in in New York. Um, and there's a range there. Uh, you know, as part of our career collectively, and Bonnie Bonnie pushed me uh in the in the best way possible. But I wanted to reach the top of a number of organizations. Um so I couldn't be that father who coached Little League. Right. Uh I said, but there are a lot of people in our community who can. Now, they're not going to be the CEO, but they're going to make great livings. They're going to do really nicely. They otherwise worked very hard. But I was not going to be that father because they could leave the office at at two or three o'clock. Also, um point we were talking about before about reading, which we continue to do. We were actually listening to a podcast on the on the on the way down. Uh uh about a month ago I was invited to a session and they talked about prioritization. I think I shared this with with you. Um and they uh they picked a point of time in time and you know, as you go through the eight or ten things that are important to you in life, what do you think you should how do you grade yourself on them so versus how you're achieving? So you may say family is a ten and you're achieving a five, but that changes over time. When I was really emerging in my career, yeah, family was important, but I wasn't focused on it. I was focused on advancing my career. Now, if some you know, if somebody got sick or if there was something going on in in life, yes, of course. But if you the the way I would grade myself was vastly different at 30, 40 versus, you know, today it's at 70. Um where today, you know, if I looked at the I you know, also you know, health and uh and s and sports. Um you know, in my 30s I would I would have said it's important and I was achieving it. Now it's like you know, it's family, it's health. Those are the those are one and two. Health slash less slash sports.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Do you still play sports now?

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:09

I'm going I'm going to Utah with him next week, in two weeks. Next week? Next week, I think, for a master's basketball tournament.

SPEAKER_07 15:17

Whoa.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

In Utah for five days, five games in a row. He played also in Florida in May in a tournament. Again, a master's, and there's this league, he'll tell you about it. They play all over the world. So I'm gonna go and make sure that everybody stays well and that the refs are in check.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

So the how many people are playing competitive basketball at 70 years old? Not many.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

More than you would more than I thought, and more than you would think. Okay. Uh so I played from a little kid. It was this I wasn't very good. That's all I wanted to be was a good basketball player. And you know, when I got past the point of thinking I was gonna go to the NBA because I was told, I reached full height at about 13. But I, you know, I just wanted to play and I wanted to make from an earlier generation. We didn't have middle schools, we had junior high schools. So with a junior high school, you got to be a big shot twice because you made the junior, it was a big deal to make the junior high school varsity. And it was in the day of you got a letter and you were a big shot, and then you went on to high school. So my first goal was to make the junior high school varsity, and then and and then and then I just and I played a year at FM, sat at the end of the bench, barely saw any time. Uh, but I just kept going and I made some of the most important relationships. Uh, and then I I never stopped. I had an active master's career um from 40 to 52. But at the time, and this is all full court, yeah. We played in and played internationally, at the time, um most of the master's basketball was 40 and over. So the time you by the time you started to get close to 50, you were old. I put the last tournament I played in was in Florida, and they did it by five-year increments. So two years ago, I said, as once I turned 70, I said, let me start to think about this again. And long story short, I ended up playing, I've played now in twice in Florida, uh, and in 65 in over division. Uh the teams fill up quickly. They're they're capped at 10 teams per division. There are over 800 people playing in this tournament. Uh when I was, it's now when I first went, it was 35 to 70, it's now 40 to 80. Uh, there are people that are traveling all over the world who do this. They scrape together together the money to do it. They're they're not of the highest means, uh, but they seem to do it. I had a wonderful experience playing at the Basketball Hall of Fame in July, which was really cool. And the the best part about it was that when I came back, our six-year-old really wanted my uniform and wanted me to autograph it. That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. It was a cool uniform. Yeah, it's a cool uniform. It's hanging in his room. By the time he's eight, he'll realize it's not worth it. But at the moment And I have a basketball card, which I've autographed. Oh, yeah. I have a card and uh you know it's it's added a new a really new dimension. But we've also used it for leadership. I've had this game uh we we've played in forever, and uh we were very fortunate the Wall Street Journal picked up the story, and it wasn't about an old guy playing basketball, it was about the careers that were developed, and there was one in particular. So when our son played in high school, he was close with twins who both played on the basketball team uh with him, and one of them actually went to Middlebury with him. Uh and the second one though had the magic to be a salesperson. You know, he just he just had the smile and the glow in uh in his eyes, and he he wanted to go to a bigger school and didn't keep playing. And and I was able to get him uh uh a cr a job at the first an internship and then a job at the firm. And uh last year, uh proudly, uh he became the youngest ever vice chair at that company in New Jersey, a major global company. And then he began as an intern. And the first ever black vice chair in the history of the company. That's amazing. It all started and the relationships that he made on this basketball court, and uh uh he behaved himself, behaved uh in a way and and made these relationships, and people wanted him around and like they liked him. Uh and I just was with another fellow who's uh played with his son, which doesn't happen that often anymore at this stage, it's too difficult. Uh and I said all credit to what you've done as a father because I have time for your son because of the way he handled himself on the court. He's a senior in high school, maybe he could play afterwards, maybe not, but the way he handled himself, and that made an impact on the other players.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Can can you just say a little bit, because maybe one of our students would one day get invited to go to something with somebody and they might and they might think it's just basketball, but what can you see from somebody when you're playing basketball with them? What these what are some of these things you can pick up on?

SPEAKER_04 21:08

That's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Yeah, what that's really important so that they know, so that one of our students might know hey, if I get invited to something, be aware. People are gonna see you.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

I I understand it's it's a team sport. So it's a particular challenge when you have the age gap because you're the young person's moving at one speed, the others are moving at another, and the game has changed. You know, the the game has changed materially. None of the adults I play with know can do a Eurostep. Okay. Um you do a Eurostep? No. I can't do it a Eurostep. But you know, so but you know, it's understanding and and if you see how the but there are things that mature players know what to do, and when you see kids. Who pick up on it. So for example, as I've become slower and do, you know, and I continue to think things, where do I add value? I add value on defense, because I can still play. I said a lot of back picks, which this generation doesn't know about. And I'll go up to if I'm playing with one of those young kids, I'll tell them, I'll say, keep your eye out. I said, I'm going to free you up. Right. And just use it. I'm not looking to get the ball back. I'm looking to free you up. And if I see the context, and also are they polite? Polite's really important. You don't have to be, you know, it's a bunch of adults. These adults have been together for a long time. And how do you sort of create, you know, sort of look around. Look around and see. And and and, you know, these groups are all a mix of people. Uh and uh but those are one of those, go back to that statement I made earlier. Put yourself in a position for something good to happen. You never know where it's gonna happen. The the the young man, and there was another uh uh young man who who who Bonnie had mentioned, they were always welcome at our house. Why? Because they they were polite, uh you know, they handled themselves really, really well. Uh we saw one of them play in we saw them both play in college.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Yeah, we went one and played football, it got a scholar full scholarship at Virginia for football. And we went and walked down there and watched that whole that was quite a thing. And the other fellow played in uh North Pomp Beach. What was this? Northwood was the school under Raleigh Massamino was the coach there. And and you know, we shared our experiences with this young man, and he kind of looked over for for him while he was there. So it wasn't just about basketball, it was about other aspects of this young man's life that he should take a special interest in and make sure. And he did, he to his credit, he did.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Greenhouse scholars. And and what Greenhouse does is um they find high-performing seniors from underserved communities and provide interview them and take them through a rigorous process and offer or offer scholarships to them. And one of the things we tried to do was figure out why similar kids but from different schools, why some were so successful and and others weren't. And we created a top ten list, which I think I shared with you. We still have it. Um of uh generated by the graduates. So we had two two round tables of graduates that said why you. Right. Why you as opposed to somebody else. And the for number one for most everyone was create curiosity. But one of the other points that came up, which we were able to talk to, was if you have the opportunity to be in extracurricular programs, because if you're in extracurricular programs, you're gonna be with kids from different socioeconomic backgrounds. And that's gonna be the one situation where you're at worst equal. You know, if you're in the dance class or if you're in the basketball, or you may be better. And and all, you know, our our our kids are 40 and 38, so we've had a long history with that, and we've seen those that have those that preceded them and those that followed. The friendships that were made through these different programs, and you know, and the kids were, you know, it's not gonna be everybody, but you have the opportunity, you know, you're gonna get you may get financial support. And our instance, you know, Coach Massamino, um, you know that name? I mean, he was that iconic coach at at Villanova and and and won a uh uh won a national championship. And then when he retired, went on to a division school in Florida. You know, he called Bonnie once and said, Look, Melvin needs uh a comp a laptop. Can you help us? And we didn't have to discuss it. Melvin had a laptop. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

I think that's important too, though. That's because volume, just the consistency and uh you guys being there um and able to help someone through that journey. Um, not even like needing you as a resource, but you just being there to support when needed. And I think Will did that a lot in my life. And you know, I veered off past, and Will was still with me though. And anytime I leaned on him and called on him, he was there for me. So the consistency and not giving up and just you know standing by my side, I think that's really important. And that speaks volume. And I think mentorship really comes down to consistency and how are you gonna be there through the tough times, through the worst times, through the best times. And um, you guys got the opportunity to see someone go to Virginia and what was the other school? Northwood. Northwood.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

Yeah, it's a small school in uh West Palm Beach. Crazy, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Just him coming over and just being polite. You always have the door open. You always you you you you have the door open for him to always feel invited and come over there where he sees something different. Exposure equals expansion. I say in every single podcast. Exposure equals expansion, exposing these kids to something different, and them thinking outside the box that they can do more than just what's in their community and right in front of them. That's a great thing.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

And that also came out very significantly. So at the at the Boys and Girls Club, um Bonnie arranged to how many kids came into the city, and what did you pick up?

SPEAKER_04 27:33

Twenty uh kids from the club. We made we made arrangements for them to get in to take a train. I wanted them to take a train from Mount Vernon to Grand Central. Many of them have never been to New York City, certainly not, of course, not Grand Central. And I met them when they came off the train and we looked at Grand Central, the constellations, the whole building. It's so fantastic alone. And then we were able to walk like five blocks to Mitchell's office, and they came up and they saw what a New York City real estate office, or any office. I mean, first they were looking at the buildings, and you know, it was such a great experience. And then when we got to the office and they saw this beautiful office and all these people working in different offices, and uh the the kitchen area was um the the common area, I guess you call it what do you call it? Common area? Yeah. They sat and we had snacks for them, and then they were presented with refurbished laptops. They each got, they sat there and they were given a laptop and a case for it and whatever else they needed, and we had people presenting from the company, younger people with the board, how they came up in the ranks and how they started. And many of them started the same way these kids are. And you know, uh you know, parents didn't speak English, and they, you know, were struggling and they found a way to become executives, young executives at this company, and they were very excited to see these stories of these people and get the laptops, and it was uh a really nice experience. And and the other thing about, you know, how do you a after something like this or after he, you know, get helps someone go in a position at a company, when they write back to you and they an email. I mean, nobody sends letters. I think that's great. He loves handwritten letters. I think that was but to acknowledge, thank you for inviting me, thank you for the opportunity to come to your office and see how you know where people work and you know what I can aspire to do. I can, you know, I can I can be this. I can be this person, I could be in one of these offices. Right. You want them just to see it and think about it for the rest of their time and how they're gonna get there.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

It's changed so many kids' lives doing that.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

And by the way, this was only 30 minutes from New York City. Right. This wasn't even like you know, Lancaster to Philadelphia. This was 30 minutes, you would assume everyone had been to Grand Central. Right. Some and never been on a train. Most none of one, I think one of the kids had been in the city. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Well, uh on this topic, specifically thinking about bringing kids into the firm and getting them to see that. Mitch, one thing, if if people read about you, they see that you took a huge step to bringing diversity into the field. You created a number of different groups that still exist today that have grown, that have multiplied. I'm sure there's more now than when you started, but you planted the seed. So from your leadership role, what made you realize that was so important? What made you realize that you would go out of your way to bring diversity into the firm? I don't want to make it noble.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

It wasn't. It was about you know providing opportunity for talented people. And and unfortunately, you know DI diversity has turned into a bad word today. Um but for uh you know, as I look about it, it was always about providing opportunity and access for people who otherwise might not have had it. And once you provided that opportunity and access, could you earn the next role? And in the last uh company I was with, uh I joined a I was a fourth white guy on a four-person management team. Uh and when I left, the team was uh five out of nine diverse with women in the second and third positions. Uh but they earned it. I I just was made sure I provided the opportunity, but also not only provided the opportunity and provided coaching when appropriate, you know, and and resources.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

We don't hear much of that. Uh you know, it has become a bad term. But when you look back now, you can see the positive impact that those pipelines created that now the business reaps the reward from. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Just because absolutely. Um I think there's there's hopefully there'll be enough momentum that the right programs that were created for the right reasons and the people who were committed for the right reasons. Yep. Uh and one of the reasons we were successful as a firm is that myself and others were authentic about it. And you know, look, people can figure out authentic whether you're authentic or not pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Yeah, for sure, right? Yeah. We there's another thing, and this is for both for both of you to talk about in your your own leadership journeys. You introduced me to this topic of a personal board of directors. You've you've talked to me about that. Nate and I both kind of have our own personal board of directors, people that we lean on. But for both of you, how has that been important in your lives? Who have been your people that you've leaned on throughout life, your personal board?

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Beyond each other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Each other is a good answer.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Each other very, very significantly. Um we've seen the evolution of our kids.

SPEAKER_04 33:17

I was gonna say that as they grew up, we've learned a lot from them. But as they said, one of the older ones said to us today, Dad, I had a front row seat to everything you went through. Your whole I watched. I wasn't just, you know, in the background. I paid attention to how you did things and how you ran your life, your career, people that worked with you. I paid attention. And now he's in a big leadership role, and he is utilizing a lot of his, I wouldn't say techniques, but his, you know, the way of the way about that he went about all this and instilled some new things that we're learning from, you know, that he he had some great ideas about things and you know he wrote us a made a chart with a book on what's important, priorities that we should look at.

SPEAKER_06 34:08

I mean, he made this whole thing was really funny. We said, Scott, that's really good. You know, we'll we'll work on this. Yeah, right? Wasn't that funny?

SPEAKER_03 34:16

He was really but it it's a concept that again, we're as we were talking before, if you see something good, uh make sure you steal it. Um and and this was used by the uh Wall Street introduced by the Wall Street Journal. And I I think you're fortunate you have a mentor-mentee relationship, which is now mature. It's really tough. It's it's not so tough from the mentee. It's tough to find somebody who's a good mentor. Oh, yeah. It's uh I've always I've never been a pure mentor to anyone other than you know co-mentoring with our with our family. Uh but I've looked at role models and uh in in my instance I sort of I evolved to having three people on my personal board of directors. Now three of them don't know each other, by the way. Uh well two of the three do, actually, as I as I reflect. Um there was never a meeting, but there were people who I could go to for advice. And um recently somebody asked me, they said, Well, look, if you know, if you you know you had a position or if you're a famous person, it's easy, or if you're enormously wealthy. I said, Well, let me give you the three instances out of the three people that I got. Uh the first person came out of tragedy. Um all three, the thing they have in common, they're 15 to 20 years older than me, but when one has passed, the first came out of tragedy. He uh his son worked for me and committed suicide in in the office, which was one of the worst tragedies, probably the worst thing I ever dealt with. Um and uh uh through a colleague who knew the father, uh I spent a fair amount of time with the father afterwards, and we developed a relationship. He appreciated the outreach, he appreciated the genuine attention uh and concern, and he appreciated what I had done for his son uh during the time he had been there. And he became a very valuable mentor. He was in the financial services industry. The the second was opportunity, uh head of my firm was part of a group, and uh he unfortunately grew ill and was just looking for someone to cover a meeting, and I said, Okay, opportunity, raise my hand. I said, I'll I walk into a room with 20 people, um uh and I knew who 19 of them were through the news. So there was a room with 19 well-known public, successful people and me. But I hung in there and I was there, I was the kid. I was the kid, and I guess I I behaved myself well enough. And you know, if you you show you're sincere to to keep getting invited, and the person who ran the group was also went on to come. And the third came out of basketball. Uh guy played basketball with uh was partnered at a law firm, and uh, you know, we we cultivated a relationship on the basketball court. So there there are so many ways to to do it. Um it could, you know, for in my instance it was three people outside the industry, uh, but it could be somebody within your industry, it could be somebody within your church, it could be a family member. Uh it's somebody that you think you can learn from. And you also have to sort of pick and choose your moments. Uh you can you can overdo it and then you lose the person. Right. You mean a you mean asking then? Asking, asking constantly. And you also want to give something. When you show up and you not not a gift, but a thought. Also helps when you leave with when you uh lead with the thought, right? Particularly if there's an age gap, because you there's a lot to learn. A lot we need to learn, you know, about each each generation.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

It's nice to know that you could mentoring can go both ways. Even if you're the the mentee, you can still benefit you can still help drive some benefit. So, Mitch, I know that you do a lot of leadership coaching today. People come to you for leadership advice, and you go to groups and and help their young leaders grow. What are you teaching today? What topics are important when you're out there instructing on leadership?

SPEAKER_03 38:46

One of the things I I talk about, and I I show it in in the presentation that I do, I call it a path to leadership. Until my mid-30s, there was nothing in my past that would have suggested I was going to be a leader. And I and I start by asking, are leaders made or born? And you know, most people say you know, slight more will say it's a combo, some will say made, some will be born. And I and I and I start talking about um our um 38-year-old son, who captain of every team he's been on, been on, walks into a room, automatically people gravitate to to him. Uh and when we moved to a new community in second grade, Bonnie got a call. Um first week of school, he's from the teacher saying, Look, Ben's adorable, but he's mischievous. And when he does something, the whole class follows him because he's a leader. So he gets home, and I get this story, and I said, You better behave because you're a leader. And he says, I don't want to be a leader. He was the leader. I, on the other hand, was never I I was never captain of anything. Uh I was uh you know, like I was a good student, I tried hard, I did the right things. I, you know, I I I I learned I didn't like to speak in class. Uh uh I learned the the trick of not sitting in the where to sit in class, which was two-thirds of the way up. Because you know, if you sat in the back, you were trying to avoid being called on. And uh with with Bonnie's encouragement. Two-thirds of the way up. With with Bonnie's encouragement, when I had an opportunity uh to change my career move from being a lawyer into the real estate industry, and I realized I had to change myself to be succeed. And I looked at two organizations, uh, two not-for-profits, one which was New York centric, the other was U.S. centric for the entire United States. And I just decided I was going to put myself on a path to leadership faster than anyone had ever done that. Where that was, where that came from in me, I have no idea. But there was nothing in my past that suggested it. And I became chair of one organization and I became a uh chair and a trustee uh of another on a very fast track. So I tell people it's one it's yes, there are people who are inherent leaders, but there are others who are leaders made. And and it's pot there's really an opportunity today. Because the challenges of leadership are so great. Um, you ta take sports. Pick pick whatever sport you want. Um the era of you know, these are well before, but maybe you know some of the names. The names of Vince Lombardi or you know uh John John Wooden. And there was a great story with uh John Wooden and Bill Walton. Bill Walton uh probably was one of the top ten college basketball players of all time. Um and he was what you called in the 70s a hippie. Uh he unfortunately passed away last year. And in his junior year, after it was the time freshman couldn't play, so uh senior year, he had won two National Players of the Year, two national championships, and he shows up at practice with long hair, headband, and a beard. And the coach looks at him and says, Bill, what's this? You know, my rule? And he says, Yeah, well, I'd like to exercise my right to expression and free speech, and I want to look like this. And the coach looks at you and says, Bill, I entirely respect your right, and we'll still maintain a relationship. And I will wave to you in the stands every game you attend. Now that wouldn't happen today. It was a lot easier back in the day when you told somebody to do something in the now, but it it's very much about empathy. Uh it's very much about understanding dealing with people as individuals. And this isn't just not challenges for people of my age, it's anyone in a leadership position. It's understanding what's important. Uh there are particular challenges with the generation that's grown up through COVID. And uh you know, the uh one of the opportunities, you know, one message is it's never too late. There's um and another is if you're really looking for an opportunity, look for an opportunity to put yourself in a leadership position because your peers don't want it. And in one of these leadership groups I do for the uh in the New York Police Department. A lot of the a lot of the attendees are are parents of you know kids who are either in high school or beginning college or or just out. And they, you know, after we get comfortable, you know, and we start to talk about personal things, I say, how do I motivate my child? Or you know, how do I get how do I get them out of the house? Um and and one of the things I say, look, one of the messages is look in in our generation, we competed against everybody. Everybody who wanted to do something, you know, if you wanted to become a doctor, a lawyer, go into business, you competed against your entire universe of people. Now you got 60, 70% of the people who really don't want to compete, who are still trying to sort out what they want to do or want to pursue and I'm not yes and maybe they will make the best dump better donut. And uh but they're, you know, when it it's it's good it was good to see for example that law school applications are are up. This past weekend we were with our niece and two friends who have now put nine years into their education to become doctors, right? And they're they're gonna be extraordinary. But some of those those things of putting time in and look what you've put in what you've put in to this devoting yourself time, effort, heart and soul is into something uh you know i i is significant. Uh so those are the you know sort of some of the key things we talk about and then it's it's really never too late to go for a leadership it's it's never too late to to to get on track in your in your career. People just start later. Each generation starts later.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Trevor Burrus When I think about our students being interested in leadership and they've heard now they've heard some of these lessons which I think are critical for them just because we're all together and we don't have the chance to talk this often I'm I'm interested in what have been some of these really hard challenges and this is for both of you that you've seen and faced in leadership. Are they are the biggest challenges that you reflect on are they are they because of people? Are the big challenges because of uh you know a really tough deal that you needed to work extra hard to get done reflecting back what what was the hardest part of of leadership?

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Oh you're the leadership expert I mean he really speaks to a lot of groups um including the police you know in New York City and uh I I should take that one I think you know what you you build resiliency you you learn life but you you you're for the terrible thing that happens you're not never fully prepared uh I had mentioned earlier uh you know having dealt with dealing with the suicide okay that that I was with that person that morning everything in his life was outwardly terrific uh and uh you know then a few hours later he commits he commits suicide uh what you learned from that uh one first got professional help right away so we got grief counselors into the office be visible leader you as a leader you have to be visible um the third part is make sure you take care of yourself because you have a whole lot of people so you need to be visible during the day you need to if we we brought if you need to bring people together uh and it was a horrific stretch which Bonnie uh lived through with me uh because we'll get to the take care of yourself part two weeks after this suicide a very popular young man in the office died in a surf surfing accident and it was followed by a series of deaths that were not normal course of life you know so it was a sibling it was a spouse it was not not a child um where I attended you know I think it was eight wakes or shivas and finally and I had to call an off I called an office a meeting in the office that there was not a black cloud of the office people were thinking we're starting to really get spooked that this was happening because a lot of we were close enough we were all attending these but I also wrote was reaching a brook breaking point and grabbed the family and we we took off for a five day vacation because I needed I I couldn't do one more. But those lessons you know we we had a horrific tragedy in in New York a few days weeks ago where there was a shooter who walked into a building by the way in case people it was not our family but we were very close to them and the lessons that were learned that I learned in the in that first tragedy were were lessons that you saw displayed again. Be visible be really visible take care express do all the right things by the family but do all the right things by your employees challenges are different so we know 9-11 uh but we'll bring you um didn't know for 24 hours whether a particular building where we had employees had gone down or not uh uh but the challenges of the last few years because of the uh the length of you know how long this is this has gone on and and behavior has has changed and together with it the increasing demands upon leadership to be present to be available to show empathy to do it one by one very difficult to do when we were all doing um it's a message that uh certainly convey I convey the importance of being present in person and you know when you read about you know all these you know mental health challenges uh point made was no no matter how difficult it was to get to the office pre-COVID uh whether you were in an hour you know you were stuck in traffic you were on a train you were on a bus in Silicon Valley somehow or other people got through it. What they haven't gotten through is sitting in a little room by themselves. You know talking to the you know you know talking to screens or or or or or being overwhelmed by social media.

unknown 51:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Bonnie we we glazed over it but it's important. I I want to know how did you handle this string of tragedies at the office when Mitch is coming home I would imagine probably very late and probably full of emotion just trying to hand like you supported the family during that time you supported them. What was it like to it was difficult.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

It was a hard time and you know there was so much going on all at once very unusual and uh you know you just try to provide the most normal home life you can and of course make sure the kids are well taken care of and and and they're okay because they saw their dad in a state that was not normal for him but you know they were understanding and you know just try to make things as comfortable and as normal at home as you can. But you can never change what happened or make it really much any easier.

unknown 52:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:03

It's important to know your releases and Bonnie was always great about that. So at the core of that part of my career we really had two it was meeting for a movie at five o'clock when people went to the movies I forgot on Friday I would say every three out of four Fridays a month we Bonnie would meet a movie that's his that was his great escape sitting in the dark unfortunately you probably don't ever have that experience but sorry you missed it. Not a bad experience by the way sitting in the dark with the soda and popcorn and MMs or something. And the other ones in in all the in in the 45 years we've known each other never once interfered with me playing basketball Saturday and Sunday morning. Really? On the calendar yes and sometimes comes out and talks to some of my younger friends and says I'll be glad to talk to your spouse about why you need to be here. I told them to bite their spouses for the you know we would hang out while they were playing just so they didn't not come to the game you know because you do you do it it is important to take care of yourself because you you know as you move into leadership you you have a lot of people who you have responsibility for and you need to be able to take care of yourself to do it and continue to look at the you know what are what are the different sources continue to learn um you know is is my life you know and you learn from different people so we we were we were at a conference together and uh Arnold Schwarzenegger spoke okay you wouldn't have picked him but he has recently wrote a book called Be Useful as his career has changed and he's no longer doing anything on a full-time basis periodic acting or movies and he says look every he says my goal in life is every day to be useful and he says I wake up in the morning I do my emails and texts I have something to eat I go to the gym and by 11 o'clock I've accomplished three things. If I don't do anything the rest of the day I have accomplished three things by 11 o'clock and after hearing that I make sure by 11 o'clock I've done three things at least and then and then what you go on from there and then you you you you you find different sources for at different points in time. I talk about this in my leadership thing um Sidney Portier great actor of the 50s and 60s you know iconic historical black actor and there was a documentary about him uh that I saw about two years ago and he said my goal in life is not to be a better actor it's to be the best grandfather father husband that I can be and that that really resonated because we also think about that you know I'll you know there have there have been people who are more successful there are a whole lot of people who are better athletes as nobody that are better parents or grandparents I'll take I agree I second that as nobody and and and I you know uh a a lot of pride in in in that we we work very hard on that together yeah and you have the impact to see right in front of you yeah we're not the grandparents that bestow gifts and things we never bring stuff you know it's always about the time together fishing basketball reading books reading sports stories from the hard copy papers that he still gets three of Wall Street Journal New York Times and the Post and the kids come in in the morning and opens the sports page of the Post and they love that time together just to there's good pictures in there and the good stories.

SPEAKER_06 56:17

And but notwithstanding all that they'd rather be with us what do they say about us we are mean we're strict they say you know you're much stricter than mom and dad you know you're much and dad always tells me that you were strict I said we well we had rules.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Right now it's a little looser of you know no judgment or criticism it's just a different I I see the young people it's a little different you know so but they they say yeah you're really strict you have a lot of rules the world has rules the world has rules get ready for the rules guys yeah yeah it's out there I want to ask both of you just if you know a final thought about everything we've been talking about you know we have we have kids at Benchmark who might be watching this and I'm just interested if you could they're and they're probably in their late teens maybe early teens they're in high school trying to figure life out maybe they're here maybe they're bouncing in and out of benchmark what what advice would you give a young person today you know just a closing comment that something that they could take away after listening to us talk during this episode that's a good question.

SPEAKER_04 57:36

I would say nothing is perfect nothing is uh you know exact of what you think or want to get there's going to be a lot of pivots in your life and you have to make the best adjustments you can and be positive be kind be respectful and that'll go a long way I think I think and just go with it you know and don't beat yourself up if things aren't a hundred percent as you wanted because at the next turn there'll be something that might be better. It'll be different and you know keep a good strong head on your shoulders and and plow forward.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

That's great. And find the your support network that's great yeah really find your support work network and understand you're not out there alone and that you don't have to make decisions alone you will be you'll be faced with challenges and there's organizations like like the one you like Benchmark that you've done here that you know has done so much for good. But that was also thematic with the people that we met at Greenhouse who were so successful. There was somebody in their lives and not necessarily family. It might have been a teacher it might have been a coach it might have been somebody from the community it might have been an organization like this. But don't think you have to do it alone.

SPEAKER_04 59:22

And sometimes that person isn't going to be reaching out to you you have to be brave enough to reach out and say can I spend some time talking to you? I have some thoughts and I have things I'd like to talk to you about.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

One of the greenhouse scholars this one teacher was the one who really had confidence in her and even though she wasn't paying attention he thought she was bored because she wasn't challenged enough you need to go to the next level math or science or and she did and she you know it made a big difference yeah I I think it's incredibly encouraging for our kids to hear that sometimes it's okay for you to reach out to somebody find some supports if you don't have the supports find the supports.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:05

Yeah look our our kids are our grandkids they come from stable backgrounds comfortable backgrounds they're reaching out all the time they are always reaching out and and you know to some of your population think why would why would they need to? Because everybody needs to I do Bonnie does we're constantly reaching out you're constantly learning challenges are always changing it's not a sign of weakness in any way find those those people.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Yeah none of us do it alone yeah that doesn't happen well Mitch and Bonnie thank you so much for being here with me and Nate we appreciate the opportunity to get to know you both and thanks for leaving our audience with some insight into who you are and some of the lessons that you learned over the years. It's not something we take lightly and we really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:57

Thanks for asking such great questions because it made us think about some of the things we have done and want to continue to do and it's encouraging so thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

It means a lot to us and to us we learned yeah perfect what a way to end thank you all so much for listening and we hope you'll tune in again for another episode at Benchmark Studios later