The Sanctuary: Walking With God Season 2 Episode 10 – What Can Science Reveal About God?

Welcome to Season 2, Episode 10 of The Sanctuary: Walking With God! In this episode, theologian Dan Robb and scientist Mark Wadsworth explore the fascinating realm of space-time physics to see if science can uncover hidden truths in the Bible.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Welcome to the Sanctuary. It's a podcast about walking with God. I'm Dan Robb. I'm the theologian. He's Mark Wadsworth, and he's here to lighten us all up today.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Boy, I am punny. That was very punny.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Oh, yes. Just stay. There's more jokes in the way there. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Other things too.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Mark's gonna charge us up today. With science. Science. Yes, there you go. Well, if you have a question, a comment, a query, you can undermark Wagmire, you can reach out to us at contact at sanctuarybb.org. Or you can check us out on our Facebook page, or you can watch us on Rumble if you dare and be one of the strong, the survivors, uh, people who watch us there. So yeah. And uh let's see, that's today. Mark, why don't you tell us about the topic you're gonna take us through?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

All right. Well, today I'm gonna take us down this little interesting topic about God and science. Before we go there, though, I have to tell everybody that's listening, if you hear weird noises in the background, that's because it's like barbecue boiling hot outside, and I had to let the dog in. So the dog's like trying to help, and I'm trying to get him not to, but hey, we won't worry. But if you hear weird sounds like you know, chainsaws or any of that, it's just the dog. You know, you can ignore it.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, yeah, that's not me this time. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

So um for some time now, you know, we've people have come up to me and they've asked me questions about, well, you know, you're you're a scientist. How can you believe in God if you're a scientist? You know, stuff like that. Oh, yeah. And I always tell them, well, the fact that I am a scientist actually helps me believe in God more strongly. And they're like, well, I don't understand that. Yeah, and and the reason that nobody understands it is because, you know, for like the last 200 years, there's been this real battle between science and uh and religion, science and Christianity more than anything. It's not so much the other religions, but science and Christianity, science and belief in those who follow Yahweh and Jesus. So it all kind of boils down to you is that you know, you you go out and you you turn on the television or something and you watch one of the you know uh documentary networks like Science Channel or National Geographic or whatever, and they'll all basically tell you at some point during any program you're watching that you know science is truth.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, well, okay, and they'll say, and God is superstition.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, because God's supernatural if he even exists at all. But it's a myth. Science is truth, right? Well, it's not. I mean, you know, what science is, if you actually define science, it's the systematic study of the structure and behavior of all the processes, physical and natural processes that govern the universe. Okay, that's all it is, you know, and the way we get to science, the way we develop science, is through observation and experimentation. So, in order to do observation, you know, we have to use our senses, our, you know, uh, there's five of them. What is it? Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, something. I forgot what else is touching. There you go. Right, right. So you go off and you, you know, you you do these things and you try to make some sense out of what the universe is is doing. The problem is that once somebody puts those things together nowadays, they want to say, oh, this is the truth.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

You know, but it really isn't truth. It's the best understanding that we have of how something works right now. That does not necessarily mean it's truth, because that can change. Yeah. And a day, five days, five years, a hundred years, five hundred years, we might have a better understanding of how it works. So it's not truth, it's fact. And fact is something that you know you've based your experience, you've gained experience on it to try to develop that information, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

I re I remember being in uh psychology 101, and I was thinking about switching my major, and I said something to my professor about, well, this is truth, and she was quick to go, yeah no. And I realized, oh, oh, okay. Right. No, okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

This is just There's no truth, you know. There's no such thing as uh ultimately never mind.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

She was very quick with that card. I I was surprised.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah, so anyway, science is often touted as the truth, but it isn't truth. You know, it's a search for truth. I I'll grant, you know, any scientist that Star Trek. It really is, it's the search for truth. Yeah, we as humans, God gave us this amazing innate curiosity, and he wants us to use it, and so we use it all the time, sometimes to our detriment, right? But we do use it. So we go through our normal lives, do these things, normal circumstances, or whatever, and we glean information and we put that information away. And for most of us, you know, uh, those of us who aren't scientists, we put that in the realm of common sense, right? But for a scientist, you know, it's it's an experimental fact that you're gathering there, you know, and you're gonna use that. So that's all about the natural world, though, because that's what we as humans are limited to experience, right? It's a natural world. But God isn't part of the natural world, God is supernatural.

unknown 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

God created the natural world, right? The Bible tells us he created it out of nothing just by speaking it into existence. Yeah, right? So now you have this problem. You know, if science is out there trying to determine truth, but the only thing that science can do is apply this s concept of logic to natural things, natural law, then by definition, God has just been excluded from the equation. Yeah. Right? So that's the problem, right? What we have here is a situation where scientists want to find truth, but the truth is God is the ultimate truth. Yeah. I mean, uh, what is it? Titus 1, 2 tells us God is truth and in him is no lie.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

But now, if science can't, by its very nature, he got a good piece of carpet done.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

The dog is tearing up the carpet, folks.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Folks, look, uh Mark's carpet is actually made of candy. Just FYI. Uh it's yeah, so my bad.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

No, so you know, if if science is going after truth, but God is truth, and and science can't, you know, do anything other than look at natural law, then what is it that exactly science can tell us, you know, about learning more about God? Well, the truth is not a whole lot, yeah, right? But the cool thing is that we can try to understand God by looking at the natural world. You know, if you think Paul says in Romans, you know, that God has made this tremendous universe, this display, and that anyone who looks at it knows there has to be a God. I think David said something similar somewhere in Psalms. But you know, we can try to understand God by looking at how he's arranged the universe and use those observations to try to figure out an overall methodology. Right. And that's what science does, right? But sadly, even though humanity tends to be in you know incredibly, I was gonna say competent, but I was gonna say something else, you know, like arrogant, maybe. Yes, there you go. Um we really, really don't know how well thing how things really work. Now we might think we do, but nothing science finds help helps us really, really get to the bottom of understanding God directly. We can kind of do it indirectly. So I go back and I say, you know, so what good is it, right? Well scientists like to be fairly arrogant, you know, when they come up with something that that explains some phenomenon that hasn't been explained before. Sure. They get they dig their heels in and you know they're like, This is it, this is it, this is it. Right. But you know it doesn't always pan out. In fact, most of the time what you find is that uh nothing stays around for very long. We can go back in time for just a little bit over a hundred years ago to start off with. Back at that point, we had this series of uh uh physics, it was called classical physics or Newtonian physics. And as a result of what Newton had done and some of the other scientists of his time, by the way, almost every single one of those believed in God, the same way that you and I do. Okay. This was before the big fog hit the scientific community. So these guys came together, they put they put these, or they discovered these things that explained how things moved in the universe, and then some other scientists got real cocky and they came in and said, Hey, you know what? We now know how everything in the universe moves, we know how this does this, that does that. So if we had a big enough computation machine, we could literally predict every event in the future. Because God built this thing and it's all there. Emotions of all the plants are completely understood, the properties of electromagnetic radiation, light and radio waves were understood. Maxwell did that, you know, and so basically the answer to any any question you had, scientific question, they believed that they had the answer to it. And for a while it kind of worked out that way. But it turns out that um somewhere around you know the turn of the century that all changed. And I I don't want to get into all of that because that's another totally different podcast altogether about what that did to society and religion and theology and such. But um if you look at that perspective, though, if you if you hang on to that perspective that you know you can predict everything because we know where everything in the universe is and how it moves and how it changes this and all that, there's there's really two philosophical paths that that'll lead you to.

unknown 10:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

So the first path is it'll lead you to a profound reference for God. It's kind of what Paul is talking about in Romans. You know, you look at you look at these beautiful, beautiful things that God has made, and you see that they're moving, and they're moving in a beautiful path that can be predicted. You know, so God has his hand in all of this and it's in order and nothing is out of order, there's no chaos. You know, that's that's not a bad idea, you know. I mean it certainly makes you be very reverent for God. Uh so you know, you you can be awestruck by the grandeur and the glory, if you will, of the universe. And that will help kind of like bestow in you uh an additional desire to know more and more and more, because it's like, wow, God did this. I wonder what else he did, you know. Right. So you kind of you kind of go down that rabbit hole like that. But there's another another kind of a path that that you can go down philosophically that's a little bit more sombre. And that's uh the one that like the deists, the 19th century deists had 18th and 19th century deists. Yeah, Ben Franklin and those guys. And that was that, yeah, there's this God, and he created the universe and he did it perfectly, and it's this huge clock. And God just made the clock and he wound the clock up and he went off and went to the Bahamas and he doesn't care about us anymore. He's busy saying, Hey, you do you, I'm gonna do me. Have a nice time, right? Yep, yep. So, you know, if you if you kind of go down that route, you it's not very far from that to say, well, you know, then why is God necessary? You know, if he's not interacting with us anymore, you know, what purpose does he really serve because he's not helping us anymore? So, you know, what do we need him for? You know. And you can go even darker on this, right? And I I kind of alluded to it earlier that when that concept of physics disintegrated that we could figure out everything, um that led us led scientists down this philosoph philosophical path that uh uh everything's random and that there really is no need for God. You don't need a God to explain how the universe was created or what's gonna happen. Uh everything happens totally by chance. And you know the problem with that, and again, I don't want to go into it in in detail, but that's really nothing more than a thinly veiled religion. Yeah. Because those guys accept these things as facts on which you know things which have no basis. They just said, oh, this is the case, and we accept this.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Yeah, it's um like people kind of see the tracks, if you will, that have already been laid and they or the buckets, you know, and they go, Oh, well, I don't fit into this God bucket, you know. God's been mean to me in my life. So, you know, I'm I'm gonna go to this bucket here. They might go the evolution route, you know, uh still they might go like a Buddhist route, you know, here in America here in America. It's uh quite interesting to kind of observe that.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Well, there's another way, another thing too that happens, and that's like let's say that you're really not a nice guy.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

And you know deep down inside of you, you're really not a nice guy. The last thing you want is for there to be a god.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Because you know that if there's a god, you're gonna pay for the fact that you're not being a nice guy. Yep. So it's like, no, there's no god. There can't be a god. I'm I'm doing I'm I'm doing me, you know, the universe is out there, right? Blah, blah, blah. And deep down, those people are like saying, Boy, I sure hope I'm right, but I know I'm not. You know? Yeah. It's uh it's kind of a scary thing. So one of the things that critics like to do is jump on the Bible's case for being unscientific, right? So like you look at the book of Genesis, they really like to whack that.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

But you know, criticizing the Bible for lack of scientific rigor is it's kind of like uh if I said, Oh, uh, well, Homer's Odyssey is really bogus because you know, Homer sails all over the place, but the book doesn't tell us how to circumnavigate the earth. Right. Yeah. That wasn't the point of the story. Right. Well, you know, in the Bible, Genesis is explaining something that it's he's not that book is not designed to tell you the science behind how God did it.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

The whole point of Genesis is to say God did it.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, and if he did, yeah, I mean, God could have downloaded science into Moses' brain, and he would have just written all this stuff that would have been nothing to the people around him.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah, could you imagine how that would go, right? Oh, yeah. So the Holy Spirit is, you know, like giving Moses these words, you know, to write down or whatever. But I'm pretty sure there's no ancient Hebrew word for, you know, doxy, rival nucleic acid or DNA, right? Yeah. So the Holy Spirit says, okay, Moses, uh, God created man by creating uh alleles and then creating DNA. Write that down. He's like, What the heck is it? And it's like, okay, so he writes it down. Is anybody that reads it gonna have a clue? No, they're not. So it's not revelation. And the same is true for the other things in the creation process, right? It's like these guys weren't scientists. The guys that were reading the Bible, the he the early you know, ancient Near Eastern people.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah, pre-scientific.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

They were pre-scientific, right? And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying that's that's the case. You know, now, okay, so but we're so much better than they are because we're so much more knowledgeable about all this stuff that they didn't know about back then, right? So if Genesis had been written now, it might have been more scientific. Maybe I don't know. Well, probably not, truthfully. I'll tell you why. Yeah. It's because you know, in spite of our human hu hu hubris, especially with scientists, we're still pretty clueless about the way the universe was put together and the way it works.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

We think we know a lot, but we don't. So let's go down a little rabbit hole here.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Oh, all right.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

This one's a little, I hope it doesn't make people's brains hurt. But it but it's worth it, okay?

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Okay, good deal.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

So let's talk about something that everybody has some direct experience with, and that's space and time.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

You know, you can walk left, right, you can jump up and down, and you can look at your watch and say, Well, I just wasted three seconds of my life looking at my watch, right? Correct. Space and time, we know all about it.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Thing is, um, what we know about space and time seems pretty boring to us, but what we don't really understand it. And the reason is, you know, what if I were to tell you that everything that we experience about space and time is just one really small special case of everything that could possibly happen in space and time. Oh wow. Now you say, what does that mean? Yeah. Okay, well, you think about it, we're pretty slow. Even the fastest things that we have are pretty slow. Right. So we don't have a chance to move around really, really, really high speeds all the time. So we don't have a lot of experience in a lot of things. Um let's start off by uh just investigating space a little bit. And let's pretend that we've got this this situation where we have a tabletop and we have a piece of paper on the tabletop. And we draw two axes on the tabletop, we draw one that goes up the page and we'll call that north. One off to the right hand side, we'll call that east. So it's basically it's just like your compass. If you were looking at your compass, you know, you've got the compass points. And now we we create this imaginary uh flat friend. And he's trapped inside of that graph paper. Oh wow. Now he is constrained, he can he can only either sit still or he can move at a rate of let's say uh one mile per hour. Okay. So let's take a couple of cases. Let's have him start from the dead center of the compass, dead center of the graph paper, and have him travel um oh let's say let's say we'll have him travel north. Or let's I'll have him travel east first, okay? Uh at his at his normal rate, so one one mile per hour. And we have him travel for one hour precisely. So at the end of that one hour, he's gone one mile east. How far has he gone north or south?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

He hasn't. Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Okay, so let's put him back at the center.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Let's do it again, and this time we're gonna have him go north. Same stipulation, one hour. So he travels for one hour, he gets the his distance, and he's exactly one mile north of where he started. How far east or west did he go?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

He didn't.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Right. So you've got two constraints here if you're moving only on the compass points, right? But now let's take a third case and we're gonna say, okay, we're gonna make him go northeast. Same rate, one mile per hour. He goes northeast for one hour. He travels one mile total distance. But let's look at what he did like east and north. Turns out that if you look at how far he went east, it's uh basically 0.71 miles. Oh, okay, seven tenths of a mile. And if you look how far he went north, it's seven-tenths of a mile. So what he did was he took that motion that he had and it allowed him to split it up into two directions basically simultaneously. Okay. Not just one and one, like he started off. Okay. Now you're probably you know saying at this point, this guy is like incredibly boring. Why is he telling me this stuff? I don't care about geometry or trigonometry, and I never will. So you know You're being obtuse. Bear with me, there's a point to this. So we as human beings like to think of time as four separate independent dimensions, right? Um we'll call it uh, well, what, length, width, height, and time. But uh it turns out that these things really aren't independent. They're interrelated. And they're interrelated in a really, really weird way. So you have to take my word for this, because I can't prove it to you, and I don't want to lecture you to demonstrate the math behind it, because nobody wants that. But it turns out that in the universe there's this quantity. I don't know what else to call it, but there's this like quantity of something that's constant. And that quantity can be split up. It can either be maintained wholly in either time direction or in space direction, or it could be split up in between in the two, kind of like our flat friend that was walking along there. Okay? So what's really weird is that this constant value is always traded off between space and time. When you're sitting still, all of that quantity gets put into the time direction. And so you look at your watch, and it one second Is one second. You're like, what does that mean? One second's always one second. Yeah, bear with me. Skin or find out that's not true. All right. Now. So if you're sitting still, it all goes to time. Now, if you're moving at a rate that sucks up all this quantity in the motion direction, what happens is all of that quantity goes to motion and there's nothing in the time direction. Time stands still. Time is zero. There is no time. Now you're like, okay, that's silly. When does that ever happen? Well, it turns out that things that travel at the speed of light that is the case. So things that travel at the speed of light experience no time. There is no such thing as time to them. Um sounds weird, and like I don't think that probably makes any sense. But that's because we as humans could never travel that fast. Anything with matter cannot travel at the speed of light. It's impossible for a lot of reasons. Again, I could go through the math. Nobody wants that. Um but now let's let's look at it again. I you know, I just want to kind of go over it a little more clearly, maybe. So I remember our our uh little buddy. Our little flat friend. Yeah. Okay, so now we're gonna we're gonna draw a different graph, okay? And we're we're no longer dealing with a flat friend, and now we're dealing with a fat friend, I guess, or something.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Okay, he's three-dimensional.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

He's three-dimensional. Now, our axes now, uh along the top going up where we had uh north before, we're gonna have time there.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

And on the right hand side, we're gonna have space. Yeah. Or we'll call it motion. Just call it motion. Okay. So now uh there's this quantity that we talked about. There's this constant quantity that everything has. So if you take that quantity and you take our fat friend and you shoot him off along the time axis, okay, then everything that he has in that quantity is now directed in time, and one second to him is one second to him. Not only that, but one second to anybody else outside of where he is is one second to them too. If you do it the other way around and you take that quantity and you shoot him along the motion direction, if he had mass, you couldn't do this, so he has to be a massless fat friend. He would go at the speed of light.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

His motion would be the fastest motion that he could have, and time would stand still for him. And you're like, that makes no sense. That's like that goes against common sense. Well, of course it does, because we can't do these things. That's what I was talking about earlier. You know, why wouldn't God write the Bible in scientific form? It's because that's constantly changing. I mean, 80 years ago, even, people thought this was complete and utter nonsense, right? Yeah. I mean, they would have they would have never, never thought that anything like this were the case. And in fact, even today, there's a lot of people that that have a hard time, scientists that have a hard time with this. But the weird, another weird thing that happens is, you know, I uh if you take that same guy and instead of shooting him off along the time axis or along the space axis, you shoot him off, say, at 45 degrees. What'll happen is that he will move at some percentage of the speed of light, and time will actually slow down for him.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

It actually slows down. It doesn't go to zero, but it'll slow down. Now, what if he's doing it, he'll look at his watch and a second still a second. But if you're sitting here and our fat friend goes zipping by at you know seven-tenths the speed of light, uh, you're looking at where he's moving and you measure the rate, and you realize, wow, one second to him is now a seven-tenths of a second. The faster he goes, the slower time gets. Yeah. And it depends upon where you are when you're looking at it. This is weird. Yeah. But now, you go back to the book of Genesis, right? In the beginning, God created heaven and the earth. What frame of reference? In other words, when the Holy Spirit gave those words to Moses, where was it being looked at from? Was it looked being looked at from a human perspective or from God's perspective? Yeah, God's right. So you gotta take that into mind. So this whole business about time and space, it's gotta be very, very important. Now, just so you know, uh, you know, even if you haven't personally seen the effects of space and time, like we've talked about, and maybe you're still saying, oh, this is a bunch of hooey, uh, you probably use something every day that does experience these effects.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

GPS.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

GPS.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

So GPS satellites travel around the Earth at like uh somewhere around 13,000 feet per second. Big orbit, right? Very fast. And even though that's pretty slow compared to the speed of light, which is uh it's like a million uh no, it's like a billion feet per second, something like that is what the speed of light is. I mean, so it's a little tiny amount compared to the speed of light. The satellite speed actually cause or the speed the satellite goes at actually causes uh the time on the satellite to be different than the time on the Earth. And you say, well, why do I care? Well, it turns out that because of some other things that we don't want to go into, there's it's it's not as simple as I've made it sound, there's other effects that happen, but because of all these weird things that are related to motion, fast motion, that satellite experiences time so that it's about 38 microseconds different than the time on Earth, and that happens every day.

unknown 27:55

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Okay, so that means that if engineers didn't fix this stuff and they fix it beforehand, they actually go when they're building the satellite, they go in and they mess with the the clock that's on the satellite to slow it down, uh, to take to correct for the fact that the satellite is experienced a different time than we are. If they didn't do that, and they just let the satellite go off and have its own atomic clock and time on earth is doing this, then the GPS would be off by about seven miles every day. So it's a real effect. It's been measured and it's been documented. It's not just some hooey that some goofy item science guy tells you. You know, it's actually there. You know, so why do I tell you all this, not to bore you, but to let you realize that there's things about the universe that no matter how smart we are, we don't really have the ability to grasp it because we don't directly see it and we don't directly feel it. You know, even when we're told these things, we might not always agree or believe them. Like I said, there's scientists that still argue, you know, tooth and nail against some of this stuff. And so what we talked about is a pretty basic take on space-time. It gets a whole lot more complicated, and we didn't even touch on things like gravity and strong and weak forces or electricity, any any of this other stuff that when you put all that in there, it just gets to be this gigantic mind-numbing, painful thing that you have to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Benstein is talking somewhere. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yeah, you know, so why would we think the Bible uh would would be written to teach us something about exactly how God did things? Well, it's kind of silly. But there is something that comes from from our chat, you know, this little concept chat that we talked about here, and it's that mysterious quantity that I talked about to connect space and time, right? Uh it doesn't just it doesn't just connect it, but it's it's totally interconnected. It turns out that it's very, very strongly affiliated with the speed of light. Okay. We talked about that a little bit. Um kind of in a nutshell, what it means is something that moves at the speed of light does not experience time. It's outside of time. If I took a flashlight and I turned that flashlight on and the beam of light started here and it hit the wall over there, the last we could measure it and we'd say, oh, I took uh 40 nanoseconds to get from when I did this to hit the wall. But from the photon's perspective, that happened at exactly the same time because there is no time. A photon's life, if you will, not that not that it has one, a photon's life um is all at the same instant. It's almost impossible for us to comprehend that because we're stuck in time and photons aren't. So, you know, if time stands still for a photon of light, what does that mean? Well, i again, it goes against common sense, but it might be useful in helping us interpret some things in the Bible. It's interesting because if we take these goofy little things that I've talked about with the graphs and all that, and we start looking at them uh and look at some scripture, there's some interesting things that happen. So let's look at uh Genesis 1 3. It says then God said, Let there be light, and there was light. This to me is really interesting because you know the Bible states that God spoke light into existence, and this is after the creation of the heavens and the earth. Wow. That's before the creation of the sun and the moon. So what is that light coming from? Well, if God's light, when God said, Let there be light, he basically created the universe and he was in the universe, and therefore his light was the thing that illuminated it. To me, that's pretty weird. That is pretty bizarre, especially when you take it, you know, coupling it with John, 1 John 1.5. And 1 John 1.5 says, this is the message which we have heard from him and declare to you that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. So God created light and he is light.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Ugh. All right. Brain brain hurt. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

So you know, earlier we discussed that uh light has this amazing property of being outside of time. So for light, no time passes. That means if God is light, he's everywhere all the time, just like you know, that light beam that I talked about when you turn that, yeah, flashlight on to the to the photon, it coming out of the flashlight and hitting that wall, it's all the same event.

unknown 32:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

To God, everything is all the same event. To us, not so true because we're trapped in this space-time dimensional widging thing that he created us to be in. You know, so that by itself basically demonstrates, scientifically, if you will, God's omnipresence.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Something that we take for granted as one of his attributes. Wow. Right? All right. So maybe that explains like 2 Peter 3:8. Yeah, Peter says, but beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord, one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. So God created the universe and everything in it, spoke it into existence, right? But he's not constrained by that dimensional system that he's put us into, but he has the ability to come into it.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Now, when he does, he can come in and exit, enter any time he wants freely. Like, so to him, no time is elapsed by doing that. So it's not hard to understand that you know a year might be a thousand years.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

I do have a question though, yeah, for you, uh, in regards to that, because this is one of those verses that people who want to put billions of years into the Bible, you know, or even people that don't, you know, they they this is their linchpin verse that they go to. Well, even the people that don't well, they put some kind of time in there, and they and they they transfer that over to you know when God created you know day one and day two.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

So they want to make a day an epic, right? So they want to make it an epic, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:33

You know.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

And you know what? It could be, and you can you can actually back that up scientifically because time is relative depending upon where you're looking at it from. If Genesis is written from God's perspective and not man's perspective, then God is out there, he's moving really slowly compared to what we see. So to us, you know, one day looks like a day, uh, but it's actually in God's time, one day could be a thousand years, a million years, a trillion years. Just time doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything to God. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Right. So, you know, yeah, you could you could use that as an argument. So, you know, it gets even weirder or more interesting when you look at things like John uh uh 8 12. You know, John 8.12 says, then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, I am the light of the world. He who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life. So God already told us that he's light, so it's not a contradiction that all parts of the Trinity are light, right? Because it's the Trinity. Yeah, God is God. So why would the Bible use light to represent God? I don't know. You know, maybe light, uh, you know, like our spirit, uh, doesn't have any physical form, right? Um maybe we will act like light once we're free from our bodies. Once our spirit's free from the material body, maybe we'll have that ability, you know, like Jesus said after he rose from uh the grave, that yeah he could be in any place he wanted to be, be inside a room, just materialized, walkthrough, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Go go have a sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Exactly, you know, just do all these crazy things, right? So, you know, uh when we believe in Jesus for eternal life, we get that spirit of life. We also have this material body that's kind of stuck with it until we get rid of it, right? Yeah. But I think one of the things that uh we can learn from all of this business with you know pulling a little bit of science into it is that if our spirit is like light, then uh we are going to have some absolutely amazingly good times once we have been eliminated from this uh uh this body that we have. So there's a lot of other things that we could talk about, but to me uh the last thing I want to do is make the Bible a book of science.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

But when I see things like this, where little little words that just keep appearing over and over and over that are tantalizing, it makes me want to go and dig out, dig deeper. Yeah, and uh I think God has put things in the Bible that you know it may take us another hundred or a thousand years to figure out, oh, that's what he meant by that. We thought he just meant it was just a metaphor, but no, he's actually telling us something for real.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

That's the I you know, I just kept thinking as you were talking there, some of the things Michael Heiser said, you know, and one of them is he he would always say, I'm not going to protect people from their Bible. Yeah. You know, or don't make the Bible into what it's not. You know, it's not a science book. However, there are some things in it, you know, where you can get a better idea of God's frame of time, if you will. Pun intended on that. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

So well, alright. I've uh I'll get it out of my subbox.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

You obvious enough.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

I oblviated enough, and I hope that uh I hope that it makes some sense.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

It does. It you know, and I think for me, I I would just say I I've usually stopped at the God's outside of time, and you're like, I'd search too much to think about. Yeah. Yeah. And but yeah, it's uh definitely it's very fascinating. And it actually plays a little bit into what we're gonna be talking about next week, which will be on this guy, Ishmael. But really, it's the story leading up to his birth that is the interesting part. We'll cover Genesis 16. Well, folks, thanks for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe and smash that like button if you found this enlightening. And remember, we're not saved because we're eternally faithful to the Savior, we're saved because he is eternally faithful to us.