Avoiding the School Initiative Graveyard with Dr. Kristilynn Turney

From Burn-out to Buy-in-Free Resource: https://forms.gle/L4Lpu4m1CsYuu4R7A

In this episode of Data in Education, I'm chatting with the absolute powerhouse that is Dr. Kristilynn Turney, a dear friend and a true force in educational leadership. With over 25 years in the game, she’s been a teacher, a principal, and now a consultant who has seen it all, from the highest-performing schools to those that need some serious love. She has this incredible gift for helping schools move past the fear and see data for what it is: a tool to tell the real, authentic story of their students.

Learn more about Kristilynn Turney at www.drkristilynnturney.com

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Connect with Kristilynn Turney
Email: drkristilynnturney@gmail.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drkristilynnturney/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kristilynn.turney.50
https://www.youtube.com/@drturneyspeaks

Connect with Jessica 
Email: jess@data-informedimpact.com 
X: @informedimpact
Instagram: @informedimpact 
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/informedimpact 

Transcript

0:50

Welcome to Data and Education. I'm so excited to introduce today's guest, a true powerhouse in the world of educational leadership. With over 25 years of experience, she's been a teacher, a principal, and a consultant, and she's seen it all from high performing schools to those that are seriously struggling, and she has an incredible way of helping those schools move past the fear of data and start using it to tell the real story of their students. She's the author of several books and a speaker who challenges and motivates educator educators to turn obstacles into opportunities. I'm so excited to welcome Dr. Crystalline Turney to the show. Crystalline is a dear friend of mine and I'm so excited for this conversation. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Jessica, for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, absolutely. So, I gave a, a very short, um, little blurb about who you are, but there's so much in there and I really wanna dive into it. So start from the beginning. Well, you don't want me to really start from the beginning, but I'll, I'll No, you do. I'll give you, I'll give you a start. So my passion for literacy as well as teaching, uh, led me to start off as an English teacher. And in that process I was also a public speaking teacher as well as a theater director and teacher, um, in there. And, uh, from there I moved into school improvement with a focus on literacy. I became an assistant principal and then a middle school principal and a high school principal. And at both, uh, my middle school and high school, I was the first black principal in both of those buildings. And I share that. To share, uh, the cultural competency journey as well as some of those additional data points that we were looking at because our populations were shifting in both of those buildings and we wanted to make sure we were providing the best instructional practices for all students, um, in those buildings. After I left, uh, becoming, being a high school principal, I moved into district office where I focused on curriculum as well as intervention and human resources with a focus on, uh, diversity. And in 2019 I decided, uh, to start to consult full-time. And since then, I've had the wonderful pleasure of supporting schools nationwide as well as internationally in the areas of school improvement leadership. As well as equitable PR best practices. And of course in that lots of data and lots of opportunities to see some of the highest performing schools in the nation, as well as some of the lowest, uh, performing schools that need, uh, very, uh, specific strategies to help them move forward. So again, it is a pleasure to be here. Um, and I'm excited about what we're gonna talk about today. Yeah, for sure. So I have a couple questions about that. Um, uh, number one, you said internationally. Give me, give me some, some places that you're, that you've worked. Yes. Well, it's just one place, but I hold it very near and dear, uh, to my heart, the Cayman Islands. Oh, my, a couple years ago, oh my, I had the wonderful opportunity to do some school improvement work in the Cayman Islands, and it was a beautiful, uh, experience, uh, visually, uh, as well as being able to connect, uh, with the school that was in great need. And we saw some major, uh, growth and shifts in that period of time that I was there. Um, in addition to internationally, across the nation, I've had the wonderful pleasure of working in, uh, New York City, Chicago, uh, in the state of Wyoming, uh, California, Denver, Ohio. Of course. Woo whoop. Yeah, I was just gonna say definitely Cincinnati. That's right, because, uh, you're right down the street from me. Yep, absolutely. Um, as well as Kentucky and Indiana and a host of other, uh, states virtually so. It has been an amazing journey. Yeah. That's so cool. I, um, I was invited, I can't remember where, somewhere deep down in South America for, um, for a couple days, but we just could not, it was very late notice and the, the plane tickets ended up being way more than they were willing to pay. So, yeah, it didn't work out, but it was such a cool thought. And one day, one day I'll be somewhere. Yes, yes. I was gonna say, let's cross our fingers and something like that. We'll circle back again. Yeah, most of my work is, has been virtual, but you know, every once in a while something comes along and I'm like, Ooh, that sounds like it would be fun. Yes. Um, okay, so you said that you, uh, you had a strong passion for literacy to begin with. So tell me a little bit about how you use data in, um, in that aspect. Well, it's interesting because when I first started out, uh, in the late nineties, data did not look anything like it looks, uh, right now. And so I knew though that I had to track student learning, right? And so something beyond the grade. So let me tell you a quick funny story. So one of my first, um, tests that I gave, I, uh, went through my student groups and I counted how many students got a's how many got B, C's, D's, and F's. And then I made a bell curve and I said, okay, well it looks like how it's supposed to look because I got a couple a's here, I got a couple F's, and then everybody kind of falls in the middle. Now, fast forward, I've learned that obviously. That, uh, was only a, a very small measure of, you know, student, uh, data as well as, you know, not tracking any type of growth, uh, in that processes as well. But just starting off as an English teacher in tracking, uh, student comprehension, we did obviously a lot of grammar and literature and separating those into those individual buckets to identify student strengths as well as areas for growth. And I look back on that and I'm like, wow. I, I think I was ahead of my time in that regard because I was already looking at it almost like a standards based, um, data point. Um, even then. And then now fast forward, we do a lot of that and there are so many wonderful programs that do it for us, uh, that help guide instruction based off of that. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, we'll be hearing about a, a new program, um, that does stuff like that pretty soon. Yes, yes, yes. Dropping those Easter eggs. Okay. Um, so, so, so that was back when you were a teacher and I wanna kind of, um, talk a little bit about your experience with data culture as a leader as well. Um, specifically how, what kind of resistance you've been met with and how you think, um, we might be able to overcome that resistance for those of us that have been in similar situations. Absolutely. So, um, as an an administrator, oftentimes teachers especially view data as a hammer, right? And we wanna make sure that we're looking at it as a mirror. It is the reality. It is reflecting, um, the things that we identified for growth targets our goals, and the areas that we want to improve upon. So even when I started off doing school improvement, again, data did not look anything like it looks now, but I did see that a lot of teachers were resistant, uh, to hearing about it, to learning about it, and to. Taking it to help improve. And so with that resistance came that shift of, no, we want to use it to help and not hurt. And yes, you are going to hear and see things that make you feel uncomfortable, but feeling uncomfortable about, uh, low performing data is, is a part of how we grow, right? And we take that experience and say, we want to make things better. We want to shift. So making sure that there is this healthy culture around data, that it is truly reflecting, um, the reality and that we are looking a, at celebrating progress and wins first, as opposed to making it all punitive. And so those were some of the ways that I worked to overcome that initial level of resistance, not only through student data, though. Through teacher performance data, uh, school-wide data, and even me as a leader conducting, um, some qualitative surveys about performance and, and things that we can shift, especially around making some big decisions in, uh, the school. And so again, taking all of those pieces and saying, look, this is a mirror. This is our reality. This is what we want it to reflect. And this is not the hammer, this is not to be punitive, but to help. Yeah. And I think you really touched on one of the big reasons that, um, that teachers are so hesitant when it comes to data is because it's being used against them. And, um, so often, like, uh, you know, we have some states who are, most of their evaluation is based on their state assessment data. Um, so it makes sense, um, that they would. Be nervous about it, but then we also think about why we all went into teaching. Mm-hmm. And it was for those students. Right. So it's really challenging to be able to look at a set of data and comprehend that it represents all of those, those little babies that are in your classroom. That's right. And so it's like, it's, there's, there's a disconnect there. Mm-hmm. So how do we patch up that disconnect and make it so that it feels a bit more genuine and, um, a bit less, like we're just like calling each student a number. Absolutely. And I think with that goes to the stories, um, of those students and asking questions about those data points that we're looking at to improve. And I think even when I think back to being the teacher and doing that bell curve initially mm-hmm. As I started to reflect more, I'm like, but each of these hold stories. Why did these students get A's and these get F's? And why is this student performing well on this particular standard or unit and poorly on this one? And so thinking about it, yes it is telling a story. It is painting the picture of, uh, our work as educators, as well as leaders, and not again. Where we're just so focused on it being negative, uh, and punitive. But to that point, it's important for leaders to make sure that they are rolling it out and sharing it in that regard. Making sure you are celebrating the wins. There is always something positive that can be seen. And in our data sources, no matter how small it might be, Hey, we see growth here. Hey, we see a shift here. Hey, we see opportunities here. And starting with those wins first so that it isn't so quick to be, oh my gosh, here we go again. They're going to to nail me and, and make it more punitive. And now add on some other measure of evaluation that's going to challenge all educators, the ones who are implementing it, as well as the ones who, uh, are overseeing and, and, um, having to cater to those initiatives too. Yeah. Yeah, so true. And you've mentioned a couple of times bringing it back to those winds and, um, something that I've been preaching a ton lately is the fact that, you know, like those wind, that that shot of dopamine that we get from the winds mm-hmm. It's, it's not just the good feelings, it's also your brain connecting the fact that you did something. And it led to growth, it led to the impact. And making those connections is, is gold, right? Because then you, you know, you have control over some things. You feel that control, you feel that efficacy. And if you're building that together, you get the, the collective teacher efficacy, which as we all know is a huge determining factor in how well students do in your school. So, um, getting to those wins, it's just, I can't, I can't stop talking about that point.'cause I think we overlook it so often. We, we think, okay, we're, we're looking at data, um. And the reason is to grow the students, but we forget that we will not keep using data to grow the students unless we know for sure that there's a connection between the actions that we're taking and the impact that it has. Yeah. We had to be able to make that connection because if we're just growing on some kind of state assessment and we don't know what led to it. That's right. Yes. No point in even looking at the data. Absolutely. And then to me, you become, uh, a loser in the sense that you made these gains, you have no connection how you got there, and then probably you're gonna lose out the next year because you will not be able to Yeah. Replicate it because you didn't really pay attention to what you did. And so that's the important piece with, with data as well. Paying close attention to what you are tracking, what you are monitoring, and the impact that that is having on those outcomes so that you are able to either replicate it or say, oh my goodness, we will never do that again, because when we did it, this is what we got, right? And, and that wasn't a positive feeling or when we did it, this is what we got. We know exactly what we did, we know exactly how we got here, and this piece is what we are going to continue to replicate. And then we'll feed in something additional to help push that growth. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And we'll continue to monitor that, that first piece too, because you never know. Absolutely. You never know when AI comes along or, I mean, going back to like calculators, the internet, like of course my mind goes to all the things that affect math class the most, but, um, we, there shifts constantly and we have to be able to keep up with those shifts and keep the students, um, engaged and growing. So, yes, definitely. Um, so let's talk about rolling out new data initiatives, because I know you've had experience with that before and you've seen mm-hmm. Kind of how, how, how it can be a bit of a minefield. And we've talked a little bit about teacher hesitancy. What are the most common pitfalls that you've seen schools kind of fall into when rolling out some kind of new data initiative? Well, I, I think it's even any new initiative, right? Yeah. Because if you've been in education long enough, you've seen every flavor of the month, new idea, new trend, and sometimes it is too much, too fast. And so I, I see those pitfalls again, across multiple areas, whether it's like, Hey, we got this new curriculum, we got this new, uh, data platform that we are going to use, and I can see where staff sometimes are drowning in resources, right? We want this resource rich environment. I get it. But then when we have too much too fast with little training and support and, and very little feed into build up to utilizing whatever that data, uh, platform or initiative is to its maximum potential, then that's when we shut down. Right? Yeah. And that's anybody, right? So I think it's important. To make sure that we have a strategic way to roll out this information as well as the why. Why all of a sudden are we using this platform instead of that one? Right? And oftentimes the answer is very simple, right? Hey, what we were using before wasn't working, wasn't effective. We need something new and more robust that's going to help us shift. Right? So making sure we are, uh, being very explicit with the why, because we also know that data without context doesn't go anywhere, right? Yep. Like we have to have that connection. And then also making sure that it is not a punitive rollout. I've heard leaders, my fellow leaders. Say, well, because we didn't hit this measure last year, then now you gotta do this. Or now I gotta do, and it sounds very punitive and we don't want that either. Again, we still want to celebrate. So let's say the scores don't look so hot from the previous year. We find that little growth. We find that win, we celebrate that and say, now we want to take that to the next level and here's how we're going to do that. Right? So preventing, um, that punitive approach that is unfair for really everybody involved, right? And to make sure that, uh, we. Start small, whatever it is, and to focus on those priority metrics and we can identify very specific targets. We know, and I've been in schools where from one to 20, every single area was a low performing area. Right, but we're not gonna go in and focus on all 20. You can't, right? So let's find these ones that we often call our lowest hanging fruit and say, okay, let's start with these three, right? So making some priority metrics, um, and then providing that supported training and making it all ongoing, not Here's the platform, here's how you use it, okay? And then in May, well, what happened? Well, what, well, because your September rollout was extremely poor and you threw it in, in, in everybody's face. You didn't revisit it. You didn't, um, you did everything. Um, that you tell teachers not to do when they're teaching students, right? Exactly. Yep. Like, we expect you to roll out. We reteach scaffold. You do. We do. I do. We expect all of that. But then when we hit you with some of these new platforms, we don't have that. So I just hit on a couple of, uh, ideas to avoid those pitfalls. Making sure that there's the why, the context around it, making sure that we're starting off small, um, that we have those priority metrics, that it's not punitive and that we're providing ongoing training and support. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I love that. And, and I was taking notes as you were speaking as well, so, uh, but perfect summary like it is. Thank you. It is, um, you're dropping some gold, so I want to touch on a couple, actually, all of them. Okay. The going slow to go fast. So important. And I wanna talk a little bit, uh, how this connect about how this connects to, um, data specific rollouts. Like all of these are, you're right, they're so, they're generic to all rollouts, like, come on. Mm-hmm. It, it makes sense, right? For everything. Mm-hmm. Um, when we're dealing with, with using some kind of, um, new data platform or new procedure set of meetings, whatever it may be that you're kind of rolling out within your building, what does it look like to go slow and start small? Let's, let's look, let's think about, um, rolling out a new, uh, like a new structure for, um, interventions. Absolutely. So. There are plenty of opportunities to start slow, right? And if we're rolling out a new structure for interventions and we're measuring impact in that moment, taking a, a small snapshot of that, that can be five minute walkthrough. From a leadership standpoint, I'm going in and I'm specifically looking for, um, the, uh, I, implementation of this intervention strategy and, um, how students are engaged with it or responding. That's it. Five minutes, right? For teachers, this could look like exit tickets, quick checks or quizzes, reading logs, things that many teachers already do, they just don't connect to that next level, right? Right. Or that next piece. So. When, uh, people in general here, a new anything, right? They're, again, it's like, how is this going to impact my life? How is this going to shift? What do you have to do? And as leaders, if we can just say, yes, it is new, but we're gonna start off very small. We're gonna do five minute walkthroughs, and we're looking for this. We're gonna only look at exit tickets and we're looking for this so that slow to go fast so that we start small and then build up to where we need to be. Yeah. Perfect. So then, uh, going slow to go fast, we're, we're talking about the why and not making it punitive. So I really like how you say, um, you know, we're instead of messaging it as we have to do this because, uh, we suck at teaching reading. Um, and so we're saying, um, but we've experienced a little bit of success in, um, in a couple of our classrooms who are implementing these, these short formative assessments or this intervention, right? Yeah. So now, now how can we take that and grow upon it? Um, so I love that idea of bringing in the context and really getting down to the why. Um, looking at specific targets you mentioned. Mm-hmm. And, and you kind of talked about this in, um, from a leader standpoint, having those walkthroughs, um, that is also a very specific small data set. That they are collecting, that they can use for progress monitoring that may be, uh, useful when it comes to checking on like the fidelity of the action steps that they are creating. Mm-hmm. And I think all of it really goes back to having a plan. Mm-hmm. Right? Like having some kind of action plan as opposed to just selecting the next big thing and saying, okay, we're gonna try this. Right. Yeah. And I think there's a, there's, uh, you know, we have these, these larger platforms now that help us, um, with what used to be our biggest pain point, which was the fact that we have, well it still is the biggest pain point for a lot of schools. Yes. We have so much data. We are collecting a ton of data, but we don't know what we are looking at. We don't know where it is, right? It's all chaos. So we're starting to get these, these tech platforms that are bringing it all back together, aggregating the data so that we can look at it in meaningful ways. And, uh, to me, the step that comes after that, the step that comes beyond that is then being able to take that data and come up with some kind of very specific plan and monitor that plan and, and make sure again, that we're getting back to connecting our actions to the impact that we're having. Absolutely. That connection, that fuels collaboration, it also builds to strengthen beliefs in the system, right? Yeah. So again, you, you, you hit on a very important point by saying, instead of just grabbing something and saying, here it is, and there's no plan to follow through, then we know that oftentimes those fail. But how and why they fail oftentimes are just because of that failure to implement and structure it out accordingly. Um, again, though, we wanna make sure that as we're doing this, it's going to build in belief and connection and collaboration, so we get it when something new rolls out. Oftentimes people are hesitant. But with the right plan and the right backing, then within a short period of time, they're going to see that value for themselves to say, we have to keep going. Right? And this is when we're coming into some of our quick cycles, our short assessments, and making sure that we are continuing to support that rollout with the necessary training and bringing back that data and saying, okay, yeah, I see we've been doing this for three weeks and look at that growth and it might be small, but o of course it's only three weeks, but we still wanna celebrate that, right? And then let's come back six weeks. And even beyond from there that we're continuing to bring that to the forefront as well. Yeah, absolutely. I have a, a fun story about how when I first came up with a student data dashboard and. My homeschool at the time, which was North College Hill. I even have my woo woo. I graduated from North College Hill. We shared that before. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, but, uh, that's my family. But anyways, um, but when I first started making the Student Data dashboard, you know, I, I remember the first year just getting up and saying, here it is to the staff. Yeah, here we go. Yeah. Don't use it. And then like. January, what did we do? January rolled around February, rolled around. And I was like, oh yeah, nobody's using it. And then like the higher ups were like, why isn't anybody using it? We're all just like, why isn't anybody using it? And it goes back to what that training has to happen in the moment. It has to be connected to whatever you're trying to accomplish. So as excited as I was about some cool dashboard, nobody else is that excited unless it's helping them accomplish what they need to accomplish. That's right. That's right. And so I think we're, we're often missing the mark, uh, with, with the disconnected beginning of the year, uh mm-hmm. Training that just end. Dropping off. And I can say that because I've done it. And as a leader, I hate hearing that so much. And, and as again, a leader and one that speaks and does trainings, I'm always like, no, I need to come back. Like, or I need to build in something where this is spiraling and ongoing, not a one and done. Thank you so much, Dr. Turn for coming. We loved you. And then, yeah, that's it. So because of that, and this is just a quick side plug, but because of that, yeah. I often leave, uh, materials and resources and follow ups for that reason because I see whether it's through budgets or time where schools, they do this one and done, and because of that, you miss the mark to really build it. And then. Before you know it, it's May and you're looking back and you're realizing, oh my goodness, we, we never picked that up again. Or we didn't do the follow up. And what impact could we have had if we would've just said, you know what, we're gonna hit on this quarterly, even if it's just, you know, 30 minutes quarterly at a staff meeting or PD session. We're continuing to roll that in as a reminder of this journey, the process, the goals, and how we need to move with this initiative. Yeah, absolutely. And I think about, you know, what, what made it so successful the second year? And a lot of it had to do with the fact that I, I mean, I didn't present on it at the beginning of the year for the school that used it the most. I did not present on it at the beginning of the year either. Wow. Yes. And the reason that it was used the most in that school was because they had a structure for meetings. Mm-hmm. And what they were doing previously was a lot of clicking into different platforms and finding different data and then pulling it all together. And instead they just said, okay, we're not like doing like this big training on the student day dashboard. We're just gonna bring it to the meeting and see how it helps. Yes. I love it. And yeah, and it helped with the efficiency of their meetings dramatically and mm-hmm. Then they wanted to use it. Yes. So really just like bring it in in those moments as opposed to that, that disconnected training is so valuable. And, um, and you're right, just like touching on it over and over and over again and not letting it just fall to the wayside, um, is, is so important as well. Um, I wanna get back to talking about, um, there was. You had mentioned that you did some training in terms of diversity and looking at different kinds of data sets for that. So I wanna talk a little bit about the connection between, um, your experience with data and the, the more like equity center decision making that you've, that you've trained or worked with leaders on. Absolutely. And thank you so much for asking that. That's one of my, uh, favorite questions and topics. Uh, that's also one of my signature talks around addressing disproportionality and, uh, utilizing data from, uh, burnout to buy in. Uh, because I know from a leadership standpoint, uh, how quickly leaders as well as teachers can get burned out. And you, you really need to start turning that, um, needle or turning the dial, excuse me, in relationship to saying, Hey, we, we need this buy-in to get to that next level. So I wanna share, uh, some of my experiences around data, especially as it relates to, um, mandates expectations. And the reality is they are here, uh, and they are here to stay. Right? And they tell the story of our schools before we even get to share our stories, right? Yeah. And now with, uh, so many. News outlets, uh, releasing, uh, grades and scores. Again, this is what people see as the story of your school before they move to your communities. Before they decide to, uh, open businesses in communities or to send their students, uh, their children to schools. They look at these reports, right? What does that story tell? And so thinking about my experiences with the Ohio State report card, uh, even years ago and how it has shifted over the years, but more specifically looking at chronic absenteeism. And so already that topic has come up and we're only a handful of weeks into school. They're already seeing low performance, uh, as it relates to attendance. But again, remember I said. The data tells a story. So what is that story? Do we have, uh, transportation issues? Do we have, um, you know, uh, issues with our start times? And I get it. It's hard to shift, uh, now, but we want to hear that story as opposed to just relying on. Putting it out there. Hey, we had so many tardies or so many absences in the last week, let's do better next week. Well, how? Right, right. What resources and tools and strategies are we going to implement to do that? Right? And we see that that starts to lean in. Um. Really when we, uh, start to get to some of our, uh, more disproportionate, um, environments, right. Our traditionally marginalized environments as well. But I wanna share a story about, uh, enrichment versus, um, remediation and intervention. And when I was principal at Fairfield Middle School, one of the things that I noticed is that even though we had an excellent banner outside of our school and our students were high performing, it didn't tell the story for every student in our building. Mm-hmm. Especially our black and brown students, our students on an IEP as well as our economically disadvantaged students. And so I felt that it was kind of my task as the first black principal there, as well as just my background and experience to say. Let me dig deeper in this area, right? Because again, we are leaning back and excited about that excellent banner, but all students weren't connected to that, right? And so one of the things I started to look at is how we. Identified the students who received intervention as well as enrichment. And did we have to shift some of those expectations, uh, to align better to what was telling the story of that excellent banner? And we noticed that we needed to, right. We noticed that the, um, testing tool that we were using to identify our gifted students and our students who are going to be in our higher level courses, uh, wasn't fully aligned, didn't fully tell the story. And so instead of saying we're going to, um, take away some of these numbers and say, instead of, um, uh, 30. White students we're going to put in, um, 27 white students and reserve three spots for the black kids. We didn't do any of that. But what we did do was, uh, start to look at those bubble kids and say, how can we provide additional resources and support to help these bubble students? And oftentimes we had students who were missing these, uh, higher level courses by two points. So what could we have done to support them to be a part of that and to close the achievement gap? And that didn't mean we were taking away from the students who were already high performing. Right. We were adding to that. We were leveling the playing field and balancing that and looking at it from the standpoint of how can we provide intervention to support enrichment? Right. And traditionally it's looked at, well, how can we continue to provide this intervention to help build this student up, but build them up to what? Right. To being in a higher level class. Otherwise, to me, the way that achievement gap was, there was a scenario where, uh, the students that we were working to build up would never catch up. Right? Yeah. Unless we started to provide that enrichment to build, uh, that intervention to build toward enrichment. So I just gave you a, a couple of scenarios and stories, um, just on how I utilize the data, uh, as a principal and to bring about the shifts, especially, um, to I improve in equitable, uh, situations and to build that up. Um, and then also thinking about disproportionality. I was in a building where we had, uh, been flagged for disproportionality in discipline and, um, the steps that we had to take, and again, that started to look right down to the system. What is our system that we are using and why are these students being flagged at higher rates than their white counterparts? Yes. Yeah. Um, it just makes me, it brings my brain right back to like, how can we. Again, not, we're not bringing one group down to bring another group up. No. How can we adjust the supports to make sure that everyone has that, that opportunity for that enrichment or that opportunity to get to school on time or whatever it is. What can we do additionally to make sure that we are, um, giving everyone that opportunity? Right. Love that conversation. That could be another three hours. Oh, yes. Yes. And it's, and that also connects to the re um, to the resource that I'm providing, um, which is addressing disproportionality. It's a framework for a school that, um, or any school or district that needs that support. And it could be that you're not quite in disproportionality as identified by the state, but you do see an imbalance as it relates to, uh, discipline or closing the achievement gap from one subgroup to the next. So thank you. And yes, that can be a whole other, uh, conversation and it's something I'm very passionate about and love to talk about. Uh, so I'll just slow down because of that.'cause we'll be on it all day. Right. Um, I'm right there with you, but, okay. So you mentioned it, it's a survey. Yes. Complete a brief survey to receive the free resource guide for addressing this. Yes. Ality words. Um, so I'm gonna add that in our show notes. So if you're looking for the link to that, please, please, please check out the show notes. In addition to that, how else can people find you? Wonderful. They can reach me on my website. It is my name, dr crystalline.com. And, uh, that's the easiest and best way because it links you to my Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube channel. Yeah. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation, conversation. Um, there was so many amazing actionable, um, little, little, little trinkets that people can walk away with from this episode. Yes, I love that. I love it. Oh, I'm sorry. I was just gonna say I love it and I, I so appreciate the opportunity. Um, and you know, I hate that it's such a short period of time, but I get it. Um, because again, we can talk on and on about this, so thank you Jessica, for the opportunity to come on and chat with you about our favorite subjects, right. Data. Yeah, absolutely. And, and I'll make sure that you like, get a chance to come back and talk more because Yes, like I said, it's a, it's a big conversation. So thanks again. I appreciate it. And um, I'm sure my audience will as well. Thank you.