Momentum: Building on MultiversX
Momentum is a live-streamed, interactive show designed to provide insights into the latest developments in the MultiversX ecosystem. The show will feature discussions on blockchain technology, ecosystem growth, and Web3 related trends while fostering engagement with the broader community.
Momentum: Building on MultiversX
Momentum Ep.2
In this episode, hosts Robert Sasu, Mihai Schiopu, and Lukas Seel are joined by Claudiu Lataretu (xExchange), Mihai Eremia (XOXNO), and Adrien Vandenbossche (Shelters) for an open conversation on recent developments across the MultiversX ecosystem.
Topics include ecosystem growth, protocol evolution, and how builders are translating core technology into real-world use.
GM, hello, welcome. I hope everybody's feeling good. This is uh Momentum Episode Two. We have a very special episode today, uh, for I think two or three reasons. One, we're gonna um get live information from uh my two co-hosts, Robert and Mihai, from the Multiverse X headquarters in CBU. Also, I'm in Istanbul, so I might have to run out at any moment. There's a bunch of earthquakes. So if I disappear, um, you know this show is live because anything can happen. Uh, preparation today um was so so. We have to admit that to you uh very openly right at the beginning, because um Mihai and Robert have been stuck in a bunch of important meetings. Maybe they'll tell us a little bit about it. Um, but first of all, let me welcome my co-hosts Mihai and Robert. How are you guys doing?
SPEAKER_05:Hi, everyone. Uh, super stoked about today. We had a bunch of good meetings here in CBU in between the leads, and then we can share a little bit about and a little bit tired, and we still have a few more discussions to go through after the podcast. So a long day, but productive one.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Um, hello, good morning, good afternoon, and all the other salutations. Indeed, we started early in the morning and we had and we did not have breaks. I mean, not even a five-minute break. That was that was crazy. I think we had a 15-minute break just to have some th some snacks and some drinks, but then we were full focused just because um, as probably you have seen, the markets are changing. The momentum, just because is the the name of the podcast, probably it's it's a keyword for that we should we we should use furthermore. The momentum is changing, and um it's important to be at the right place at the right moment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and we'll talk about that. We'll have um we have a bunch of things prepared, including, I think, three wonderful guests, um, including Claudio, who I think might just be joining you at the studio right there where you guys are right now. Um and um then also Adrian from Shelters and Mihai from XOXNow. So packed show, um, also a big reminder here. Um, we do this and we have done this successfully um last time, and we'll we're doing it again. We're doing a live quest. So XAlions um is offering$150 uh dollars in EGLD. Um, if you um just produce some content about the show, you can live tweet it, you can uh you know, clip it, um, you can uh summarize the the big takeaways from the threads uh through threads on or or blog posts, whatever you think is best. Um but just you know, as the markets are roaring, might be a a good opportunity to um fatten your bags uh by just participating and and producing some content. Um ego it's uh yeah, exactly. There you go. Um and well, let's start. Um we we always kind of have three parts here. The first one kind of like bigger web 3 tech developments, the second part, um, sort of very specific um multiverse X ecosystem, um, and then more community focused achievements in the last part, and maybe I think today we'll have um a little bit of a preview right at the end. So stick around till then. Um, but I'll pass it over to Robert to talk a little bit about um what's been happening out there in the world and and your takes on it.
SPEAKER_05:I don't didn't spend too much time on Twitter this week or last two weeks. Uh I was pretty much stoked on coding, wipe coding a lot, uh trying out different things and trying a lot of AIs, how to fast to speed up my job. But there were some interesting topics. I think that right now the mark the everybody is searching again for fundamentals. That's what Benjamin said as well, and that's pretty much um a topic which is is getting up at every discussion. And it's you can see a lot of back and forth on the Ethereum ecosystem around scaling Ethereum L1 or not, and especially I think the big trigger it was on the weekend when Vitalik have announced the RISC-V that it would be much better than EVM. I even at that time, you know, being after six or seven years on the wasm part and understanding everything and what wasm is, uh you question a little bit yourself because that's how engineering works. You open up to new ideas, you see what is, and then uh you draw dive a little bit into the risk five rabbit hole. And I would say it's a rabbit hole because I just cannot understand what their thinking is. I get it that they abandoned Wasm somewhere in 2018 and 2019, and that was a bad decision. Um, at that time, even their eWASM version was not working. We made it work and we sent it to Prismatic Labs and the others uh just to show that how to solve their issues. And from any kind of uh like objective perspective, there is no reason to choose risk five versus wasm. Uh wasm is just if you want to believe build a global computer in which everybody from the world is building in their tools in their ecosystem with their own knowledge, uh, wasm is the best. Like I think you have heard on db crypto, Andrei reasoning a little bit about it. But as the topic came up, we had a lot of internal discussions as well whether we are thinking well about how we created our ecosystem or not. But still, wasm is just killer, it's uh from a security perspective, it's created to be secure by design, meaning stateless execution directly in its own sandbox where you can add guest tracing deeply integrated inside the execution part, the execution engine, and it doesn't make it slower. Also, it is one of those execution environments which is kept up by everything which is web, from Apple to Microsoft to Google to Android, you can run it everywhere, and you can design any kind of code and then just deploy it and run it. And even if your code is closed source, the resulting wasm is somewhat understandable even for human language, but for AI, AI can just make magic. You can just drive, give a wasm file to an AI or a bunch of Wasm files, and uh ask think about things about those, and he prompt a little bit, and he will get back all the results. So it is clear for me, wasm, and I think it is clear for everybody. Uh everybody who is engineering, real engineering, that wasm just wins all the VM wars. And a little bit from my perspective, it's like risk five is this kind of super geeky thing which you like as a PhD uh coder somewhere in your own garage, and 30 of your friends know about it, and you are geeking about it, but it's not faster, it's not safer. Uh, you have to engineer around a lot around it. And another thing around the VM, uh, with all this discussion and making Ethereum even, let's say, smaller and smaller, the the risk you are getting is that you are outsourcing security to the wallets and to the whole infrastructure. Meaning that even right now in EVM, all the transactions are blind-sided, and you are just one approve away from losing all your funds. Uh, there was a big talk between Ethereum and Balagi, and there, Balagi have uh said that um uh Vitalik said that ThreadFi and uh DeFi risk are reasonably close, and then Balagi said, Yeah, but you need just only one transaction and you lose 100% of your funds. So it just killed that kind of direction. So when you are making the VM smaller and eliminating a lot of primitives like safe token transfers, executions, uh multi-transfers with execution atomically, and you eliminate all those, what you do actually is that you put the security part to to a top layer like a wallet, which understandably cannot under cannot really understand what's happening in the background. So even after almost 10 years, we have still blind signing for for Ethereum on EVM. We will have the same thing on RISC-V for another 10 years. So I think that's my take on the VM wars. There were some pretty other things about Ethereum L1 scaling or not, L2s not being uh good enough. Uh I I think they shouldn't even name those L2s, but you cannot actually scale an L1 just by increasing the gas limit. Uh it just hits the the ceiling super fast, and you haven't solved a lot of the underlying issues around safety, security, around writing bigger and more complex contracts. And whether you do it or not, at the current moment, man, it is all the blocks are empty. Bitcoin blocks are empty, uh, Ethereum blocks are empty. Let's say it multiverse six blocks are empty, but we have bigger capacities, so we might say that we are somewhat okay. Uh, I think Solana blocks are not empty, but they have like 70% in um in consensus messaging, so that's a little bit interesting. Take it would be this is the best time, for example, for anybody to launch directly on layer ones and to try out new things when the blocks blocks that you have the abundance of block space, and if you really care about how do you design things, then it's a must. So that's my take. I think that Mihai wanted to add something on that empty blocks.
SPEAKER_00:I just wanted to say that those are really hard numbers. I mean, you mentioned a few uh examples, but we can continue the the list. Like Polkadot uh has this the same issue. I think they just averaged around um 11,000 um uh daily active addresses in in I don't know, last quarter of the year of the last year. Um, even though they can relay much more, like that's also our case. File coin storage network is I I think at around 30 percent uh full. Again, that's um a lot of idle hardware uh that just stays, it's is is waiting for usage, and then um Avalanche. Uh I think they slashed the fees by 96 in December. So you see why does it matter? It matters because everyone is looking for utility. I mean, oversupply of block of block space um actually wrecks token economics and developers morale. I mean, there was the the the saying, you know, if you build it, they will come. Um and we see that it works for some, but it does not work for everyone. Um, that's why I believe that we we we should not have the um use cases just because the infra can uh support, but the use cases should lead the infra, um, not the other way around. Um and I hope that the block space now in 2025 is not the same situation that we had in 2008 with the with the unsold houses. And I think that's also something that we are very focusing on uh in the last month, and uh we will uh also uh continue doing that, finding solutions for the let's say it's a kind of a crisis that uh that what we are having right now, even though the markets are um thanks to the uh delay of the tariffs, um, are becoming uh greener and greener. Uh, we don't know how long it will take, but it's the moment when the utility has to come first and then um build on top of that.
SPEAKER_05:Because I think around the threat on the tariffs that was like a big manipulation in any kind in all kinds of talks because you know there were just announcements and announcements, and trillions of dollars were moved in milliseconds or a few minutes, and it was definitely it was like pre-programmed bots to do this and to organize around that. So I don't think it was so let's say organic or natural, these kind of things, but it was like um uh pretty much arranged, uh the same way I think in January or February, when the crypto market had those kind of three weekends, strange weekends one after other, where every bot was doing the ex actual same thing. So that's that's not organic.
SPEAKER_02:Can I ask you guys just as like uh apart from the markets and all of this, like from an engineer's standpoint, not BD necessarily, but the the empty block crisis, like is it just more users, more use cases coming in, or is there like let's say engineering solutions to start filling the blocks with meaningful transactions, or is it really just about adoption, bringing more more users and more people, more projects in?
SPEAKER_05:I I think that the current applications do not really satisfy the users as they are right now, because let's be honest, you are not going to swap thousands of transactions every day as a user. You might swap a few per day, you enjoy a little bit. Um, you might play a game for a few minutes, but if it doesn't have transactions on the chain, but one per, it it doesn't, it doesn't bring up. I think that people should think a little bit differently around the block space, because actually the data inside the blockchain is much more valuable than any kind of centralized databases like Google, Facebook, and others. And if Google and Facebook created trillion dollar economies from their data, because that's what they did, yeah. We know that uh actually uh Meta was selling out all his data even to the Chinese government. So I'm not saying that uh blockchain developers should do that, but uh the the thing is that you could encrypt and times and have timestamped final data on the chain, which then according to them processes, you could let's say resell or to be reused on other applications. I would say that a lot of things, a lot of accounting, a lot of tracking uh could let's say put directly on the chain, and this would make so much more um valuable for those companies. This is just another example.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but anyway, for that we need a great UX. And great UX for us should come with supernova, but the road to supernova is quite long. Um, and I think um what a great transition there, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Amazing. Let's talk about it in common.
SPEAKER_05:He he he knew he he learned a little bit about you about these transitions, third episode, and and we're becoming pros here.
SPEAKER_02:Nah, yeah, it's common.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so um probably, I mean, the the voting has closed, the governance vote has closed for Andromeda. Um, if you did not vote, you will not receive the soul-bound NFT. But no worries, uh, there are going to be other chances like Bernard is coming and also Supernova afterwards. But let's stay with Andromeda. We had a participation of of 30%, I believe, uh, which is nice. That's why we did not ask for a minimum quorum yet, just because we've seen that um the participation varies quite a lot. So we had 28% at the first call for governance vote, then we had uh around 33% just because it was taking phase four, and now we have uh 30%. Um, most probably for the next uh governance votes, we will uh see an increase in numbers just because for sure the interest on uh the next um upgrades will be greater. Uh, we will try to promote more. What does it be? What does those new uh releases bring and how uh people will be uh impacted by that? But staying with Andromeda, um we announced to go on DevNet on Monday, next Monday, so uh three days, four days from now. Actually, we are going to delay a little bit on that just because while we were testing on internal test nets and also going on the um public testnet, we've seen uh degradation in the latency. Um, and also we have to already bring some features that will uh be used by supernova, and um bringing them now will ease a lot um the things for the next upgrades. So it makes sense to uh let's say delay the things a little bit just uh for uh this uh this moment and then uh win some uh momentum uh later afterwards.
SPEAKER_05:Technically speaking, only like the how the proofs are distributed and how the proofs a little bit how they are created and how they are distributed in the system that's has had to be fixed, and this um this fix helps supernova to be let's say smaller in terms of coding efforts because uh we don't need to make another big transition as we are doing from um from the speaker release to to the to the to the Barnard, uh to the Andromeda. The thing is that when we have these kind of releases for a few days, uh you are going on the old code, and then at epoch activation, uh the code is switched in which the validator is running, but there are uh certain edge cases when your your node is reverting or your node is still on the old epoch and the metachain is the new epoch, and all kinds of combinations around that, and that needs a lot of coding and uh testing. So we managed to eliminate one big switch, and uh that would help supernova in the end.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so um just to return a little on the updated plan on uh the Andromeda uh upgrade. Um, we were we are not going to uh update the Devnet on Monday just yet, so we will delay it with uh three or four days. Um, so I would say that we should expect Andromeda on the mainnet after the 5th of May. That's one week and a few days from now.
SPEAKER_02:If things will change momentum episode is guaranteed we have Andromeda on mainnet.
SPEAKER_00:100%. And just to have a better idea of how big this uh patch is, actually, it brings 5,000 new lines of code. So those are going to be added, or okay, so the difference is around 5,000 lines of code to an already 35,000 lines of code for for Andromeda.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, the the Andromeda patch 2 is actually bringing another 5,000 code. So yeah, so let's say the developers have uh brought in in less than two weeks another big chunk of 5,000 lines of code, so they are working pretty fast.
SPEAKER_00:This is just the last step before transitioning from the off-chain governance that it's still on-chain, but let's say it's a hybrid way of um dealing with governance to an on-chain one, uh, which is brought by by Bernard. And for Bernard, as so today we also had a planning, a very intensive planning session. And for Bernard, we are seeing like the end of May, beginning of June as the moment when we are going to announce it for upgrade. Obviously, we will have to run governance in between and then uh the acceptance and so on, um, going through the regular process. But Bernard will just turn the proposals on Multiverse X from suggestions in the forum into real transactions uh and smart contract deal engineering on chain.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's definitely. And one more thing, this is for the developers if they are listening for especially those who are liquid staking or yeah, liquid staking and the legacy delegation, let's call them. Uh after Barnard, we will create a new module which you have to integrate into your contracts in order to allow people to vote. So for liquid staking uh providers, they will need to enable users who have liquid stake tokens to vote. And this has to go through that content, no more like snapshotting stuff, but direct voting. Uh and it will go as a delegate vote, uh as we care about every single user and every single liquid stake token.
SPEAKER_00:Now, thinking about uh another thing that Bernard brings is a lot of effort on updating the contracts for the timestamps, and um probably the person who has uh the biggest amount of work on that is Claudio. And uh Claudio, if you can, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Another brilliant transition.
SPEAKER_05:Um I don't know whether we will need you anymore.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. I can just look I'll just I'll just hide my video and and let you guys do everything. Welcome.
unknown:Hello guys, hello, can you hear me?
SPEAKER_02:Uh not really. Still need to fix the mic there, but it's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. Um, thank you for having me now. So I'm very glad to be here.
SPEAKER_02:I I heard so um we were planning the show, we had some some different options for uh different guests, of course, from the team. Um, but then Mihai said you wanted um to to drop some alphas. So this is what I'll be looking for. But I know that um both uh Robert and Mihai have some questions for you also, perhaps as it pertains to the upgrades, how you're handling that and and everything going on behind the scenes.
SPEAKER_00:Actually, I I'm trying to push for a transition now. Claudio, who are you? Tell us more about yourself.
SPEAKER_05:Come on, you just read the first question around the document.
SPEAKER_03:Very, very nice transition, Mihai. Yeah, so um, who am I? So I I've been working with uh with Elon back then and now with the multiverse X from I think um four years now. And uh when when I first started with the with the Land back then, it was basically with Robert that uh I had the the first encounter and with Benny and Lucien. And um we first started with the uh idea of having an uh decentralized exchange on on the Errand network, and this was the the first thing that I've been working on. And uh I I'm working with the um XEchange now uh from back then. So I I started basically with the uh first implementation for the contracts and with the uh supervision from from Robert as well. And then I I've been transitioning to the um product side as well with the uh backend and having uh actually a product uh from those smart contracts, and uh now I'm I'm leading the efforts for the X exchange.
SPEAKER_05:I would have like before getting into the alphas, I would have like in two, three months uh truth sentences or whatever a minute. How was our first uh war room? Can you say a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_03:Um yeah, it it was painful, maybe. Uh I I think the uh the the first war room that uh we had basically it's when it was when we launched the uh the Mario Exchange. And I I still remember that the first transaction that happened on the Mari Exchange, I think it was on uh three o'clock or four o'clock in the morning. And uh it is very interesting because um a lot of the uh a lot of the community was was with us uh when we launched it. And I know that everybody was waiting for the for the launch, and everybody just waited uh to have everything um ready, and they stayed with us uh up until we we had it. And uh when when the first liquidity uh came in came in and we saw that everything is working, I think it was a very, very good uh uh relief from from our side to see everything that is working.
SPEAKER_05:But the in more interesting part was the first upgrade, no? That was the big the big war room. It is it destroyed our uh Christmas party, actually.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, indeed. Uh we we had some uh some issues back back then when uh we we tried to update something and um we uh saw that uh we introduced basically uh an issue in in one of our smart contracts, and uh then we had to uh figure it out from where this comes from, and uh we we had some uh with the uh rewards, I think it was for the for the farms as well. Uh but um we uh I think we managed it very very well because we uh found it, and uh um in two or three days we were uh patching it up and we had everything um um calculated again and um we had the the full fixes done.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and the community was really with us, like everybody understood that okay, we need three, four days to fix everything and get back everything, and then they were just hyping up the things. I think that at that time we had to postpone a little bit the holo ride launch as well, and that was crazy again, a crazy night.
SPEAKER_03:That was the second world, I think, for the for the uh ride launch. But um indeed one thing that um it is very valuable maybe to to mention is that every time uh we had something and um we were managing managing it in in some ways or another, the the community was was with us uh every time. And I think we should be very, very grateful with the with the community.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, definitely. Um then let's go technically a little bit. What's up with XExchange? What happened, let's say, in the last three months, and what's the near future?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. So um as um maybe all of you know, that uh we we just uh launched, even though it it's it feels that uh we we have the uh the XExchange version uh V3 from uh from quite some time. So for me it feels that we have it for uh years, but it's basically a few months. Uh and uh since then uh we we iterated it uh very very much on the um on the look and feel and some uh user experiences that uh we found uh during some sessions that uh we did with with some analytics as well. So we were working with the uh with some upgrades so that uh we can have a more better user. User experience and uh easier experience for the for the users as well. Um, this is on the on the products also. Uh we are now thinking on uh two different uh directions with the with the X Exchange. So we have the uh product, it's uh that uh what users are seeing with the with the front end and some uh tools that we are putting in place for uh for the users to to have uh simplified experience with the uh with the protocol itself, what we are calling it the exchange protocol with all the smart contracts. So uh maybe some uh uh some cool things that uh will be uh launched very soon and uh in in this regards as well with the um optimizations and how we are trying to gather more feedback from uh from our users. It's basically, I think, um starting from tomorrow, uh we'll have this is maybe the first alpha. Good alpha, yeah. Uh we'll have a model, uh four model uh that uh users uh will will be seeing on the XExchange after some um specific actions. And uh I will uh I will encourage them to uh fill in the uh the form so that we can gather some um uh some more insights on how we can improve better the uh the XEchchange. Um and um one one thing that is um uh uh valuable for the for the form is that it is anonymous, so don't uh uh don't have the um the ability maybe to um track them or not.
SPEAKER_05:Uh do we save it on the blockchain?
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_05:Why not? Come on, let's do that. Like let's encrypt it and then save it on the blockchain, at least the hash of it or the full document. Let's be funny.
SPEAKER_03:Maybe after we are done with the with the feedback, we can we can put a you should write the first feedback. We already have uh five uh feedback, I think, from definitely.
SPEAKER_05:All right, I think we have to move all the agora as well to the um to to the blockchain as well. Why not? That's a great idea, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And um the the other things that uh uh we were working on and um we were discussing with um uh with our colleagues as well, it's how we can um be more uh open and uh have more um visibility and information for users to understand better uh what are the things that uh the XEchange provides and more in terms of the rewards. So we do have now um a new dedicated page for the for the rewards that are distributed uh each week in terms of the um farms rewards and the staking rewards and what they are getting from the from the fees collector. And it's it is a very good insight form uh for the users to understand where those rewards come from, how we are distributing them, and uh if there are changes as well, they will see them there. Um the the next steps, um I will emphasize a bit on the protocol side and uh what upgrades we were performing. And uh we had some um um some governance calls that uh that were uh proposed and they were passed uh back in October or November, I think, uh last year. And for one of them, uh we already did the uh the actual uh actions in uh in the smart contract. So uh we are now distributing 100% of the um uh early unlocks uh penalty back to the uh energy holders. So this was the the first one. And um the the the second uh governance call that uh we will put in action basically in a very short period of time. It's the uh the more um um the unclaimed distributed rewards basically. Uh we were not claimed them, uh not even after we uh passed the the government the governance because we we had to do some uh some adjustments for the for the smart work and smart contracts, but now we are ready to to have them as well. Um the the other alpha that we are working on.
SPEAKER_02:So that means uh money going back to the Mex Energy, the locked Mex and XMEX uh energy holders in in uh other words, correct?
SPEAKER_03:Uh yeah, yeah. So basically it's about the the strategic fund that uh we were proposing in in October, and uh uh it was the uh the governance call uh for for the strategic fund. So the uh the uh unclaimed reward is basically the first uh um uh source of funding for that uh strategic fund.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, and now some big big alpha for 2025. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in terms of let's say one feature you would name for 2025. You don't need to speak any like date or week, just yeah, one which makes you excited.
SPEAKER_03:The the funny part, and I'll come back to the uh to the features as well. Uh the the XEchange basically and the the protocol it itself, uh, it is developed in open uh uh in an open source uh paradigm. So um I'm I'm very uh confused that people do not uh get or do not uh see what we are doing because we are doing everything in the public basically. So uh every uh feature that we are developing uh it is visible on the on the GitHub. So uh if you do guys want to know exactly on what we are working on, just go to the GitHub. Um we we were thinking of uh how we can improve some uh some part of the of the economics. And the uh the one that I'm I'm thinking about is the how we are distributing the rewards from the uh from the trading fees. So uh the the trading fees, uh as you know, it's uh part of them are distributed to the energy holders uh through the fees collector smart contract. So um as we were um planning them to happen um back when when you had when we had it, it's basically uh we wanted for use uh for the energy holders to uh get some um uh some of the trading fees in in any token that is traded so that uh they can uh gather some of the um some of the tokens that that are traded. But uh seeing how the uh market um uh performed and how how the market moved and uh the um the number of tokens that the the user gets may maybe is is not the the best way to distribute those uh those rewards. So um the the thing that uh we are planning now maybe is to uh have the the fees collector to basically distribute all the uh fees in in one single token. You can uh guess what what token can be.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, so would would this be the moment then uh that max becomes a first class citizen again? Um the uh the or it is the energy.
SPEAKER_03:This part with the with the uh which one is the first class citizen, whether it's max or it's the X-Mex. I think it's uh more like how um uh users or uh people are uh interacting with the uh with the XEchange. So basically the uh the Mex can be the first class citizen for uh part of the uh uh for part of the users, but for the other part uh it's uh the the X-MEX uh as a first class citizen. So I'm I'm thinking I'm thinking here. So for example, on the uh liquidity providing side, maybe it's the uh the max that it's more interested, because it's the uh the token that can boost up the liquidity with. But for the uh for the energy holders and for those that uh believe in how we are building with the uh with the XEchange and uh they want to be part of the XExchange, maybe the XMEX it's uh is their way of thinking for the first class citizen.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, I would have one more last question. When the next governance call?
SPEAKER_03:Um maybe uh it will be uh quite soon. Uh we we are uh exploring a way for the uh maybe with the upgrade for the fix collector to have uh uh to have a new um governance call on how we are planning to do the upgrade and uh how we are planning uh to work with the uh tokens that are now in the in the fix collector.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Thank you very much, Claudio. Thank you, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for joining us. Thank you for putting in the late nights at the uh headquarters. I know he can't hear me anymore. We're grateful nonetheless. Um next, we have another first-class citizen of the Multiverse X um uh ecosystem and somebody who's been putting in a ton of work, not just in real life, um, but even at universities, um, teaching uh students, I think, about uh MVX. Hopefully we'll hear a little bit about that. Um, but we have the co-founder of Shelters with us, Adrian. Um, how are you doing? Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for for having me. I'm I'm really great. Uh hi everyone.
SPEAKER_02:We want to hear a little bit. Obviously, always great to hear from builders and hear the builder stories and and have you on. But first of first of all, of course, like need to give you a little bit of time to explain shelters, the vision, what you guys are doing, what problems you're solving, and then perhaps also why you chose to solve these problems on the blockchain. Very curious to hear your take on all that.
SPEAKER_01:So the the idea behind uh shelters is uh pretty straightforward. Uh, we we wanted to to make uh real estate investment uh available for for everyone and increased a lot the liquidity. Uh in the meantime, removing all the barriers to entry uh in this market. And so basically uh we look around for already existing solutions because back at the back at the time when we we had the the idea of uh shelters, we were uh students, uh engineering students uh uh at Cisylon, so the same school we we make uh some courses uh today, and uh yeah, the the goal was uh to to create an application where as an engineer, as myself, as a young uh uh student uh being able to invest in uh in real estate. So no no other solution uh find the meet all our criteria. So we we had to develop uh ourselves uh the solution. That's why we we decided to to do it.
SPEAKER_02:What was your first like touch point with with MVX? Obviously, the French community is is very big. Um, I just remembered like I don't know if you listened to the previous conversation, but the the Meyer launch, I remember that night because I was in Prague somewhere late night and was like, oh, I have all of these Mex tokens, I don't really know what any of this is, but I'm gonna give it a shot.
SPEAKER_01:Um, how long have you been around the community and then what could be Elon or Multiverse since uh uh the ERD on the on Ethereum. So I'm uh I'm a really really uh OG. Uh yeah, I I did all the night with you guys with uh the lunching of the lunch of of the mechs. I was there too trying to buy some. Uh everything was kind of uh tricky because everyone wanted to do the same thing in the in the same time. So yeah, it was a really really fun night with friends. So yeah, I'm I'm here uh since a very, very long time. Uh basically, why I I chose to to come to Multiverse X or Iron back then was the the sharding. I think uh like uh Benjamin said in uh in uh Munich or and everywhere, I think. Uh today we we need uh a blockchain that can scale but truly scale. Uh and sharding, in my opinion, as uh uh an engineer is uh is a no-brainer because we we have to uh to to be able to to put uh more servers, more uh nodes to be able to process more transactions in case we need it. And so that's uh basically what uh sharding uh exists for. So that's why I'm here. I think Robert will like this answer.
SPEAKER_05:Um, yeah, this is music for my ears.
SPEAKER_02:I also think like you you mentioned Munich, and and this is something I think that perhaps I've seen some misconceptions about this in the community. Like Munich was obviously um uh our event that was specifically targeting RWAs, like a huge vertical of something that's extremely interesting and something where I think you're really doing something that isn't um isn't possible um without blockchain, um, fractionalizing real estate. Um where do you kind of like see this this um let's say vertical going? Um and perhaps also again, why is sharding or what are the sort of technical, underlying technical abilities that MVX presents for our RWA projects or um that other chains just cannot handle? Is it you know we still have uh a lot of empty blockchains we we learned today, uh blocked space, but but we're working on is that something um that that you guys are are thinking of as well?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh of course. I I think my my vision is tomorrow everything will go on-chain uh because we have a lot of uh advantages of doing so. Uh today when I buy uh a real estate uh we it's uh practically uh dead money because uh yeah, I have the title, I'm uh the owner of the of the place, but uh I can't do anything else of uh using it or rent it. But tomorrow on-chain I will be able to put it at a collateral and uh make it uh a working money, a working money flow for the owner. So yeah, basically, I think tomorrow we have too too much advantages of going on-chain. I think it's just uh a matter of time, it's just uh a matter of um of difficulties because you know state uh is very very low to evolve. A lot of uh parties are also uh uh like notary are involved, so it's uh a really uh slow pace uh uh evolving situation. But uh I think tomorrow everything will go on chain, and shelters is is uh in is in a position to to be ready for the for that for the next wave, because we are the only platform I think in Europe or in France, but even in Europe to be fully Web3 ready because a lot of platforms claiming the same, but it's not the case uh in the reality, because uh a lot of things are uh is still uh doing manually. Uh in our process, everything is uh is doing is doing uh automatically. So yeah, basically tomorrow everything will go on chain and shelters is uh is the best position for for that.
SPEAKER_00:So you you are basically putting, let's say, a barcode uh on reality and you let it trade 24-7. You don't have to go to a notary, you don't have to wait for uh notorno, I don't know. You you just trade it whenever you want. Um, and and I believe it should be simple enough for anyone anywhere in the world to be able to, for example, uh participate in br in winning from the value in um, I don't know, you you are living, you are staying in Seoul and you you want to participate in some uh real estates in in France. Um, I mean, uh even my grandma should be able to check guilds without uh opening Excel or what whatever she she's using anymore. Now I'm curious. Um I I I checked your um platform. Very nice. I've seen you you already have a garage there. I'm curious. Um what are the next milestones? When when a palace, when when when are we going to see a palace there?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a very, very good question. Uh we we heard uh it a lot. Uh basically, we we are uh focusing on one thing uh at the moment, it's uh the walletless onboarding. We already um did it uh as of today. So if you create an account today on the shelters platform, you are able to create a multiverse six wallets in a minute in one click. But we our solution uh is not uh compliant ready uh at the moment, so we we had to to rethink everything. And now we are we we are developing a solution that is fully compliant and ready for the for for the big game, for being able to uh put on uh on the platform bigger projects, bigger opportunities, and it was uh mandatory to to continue to to grow. So yeah, basically we we we are focusing on that, it's almost ready. We are uh trying it uh as we speak on our staging environment to to be able to test everything to see if it's if if it's working, sorry. And so that's uh pretty much what we are doing uh now to be ready to have a bigger project.
SPEAKER_00:I have a very specific question just because I've seen um let's say situation in the community with another project. What do you need from the community so that you can uh uh let's say come and say hey this is a success? And then what do you need from the foundation in order for you to say hey this is a success, and I feel that you are helping me, and then which are the next steps and if you are already having some things uh ongoing?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so basically, what we we can ask for the community is uh feedback. Do not uh hesitate to engage, to talk uh with us, to to share our messages, to try to put shelters everywhere because we need to reach a bigger audience, even outside of the web 3. That's our main uh target, to be honest. We want to think bigger, we want to bring people on chain, not just using people already there. So that's uh the first thing. Do not hesitate to interact with the the dApp, with the the application, to to bring feedback to the team, uh, to try to improve the the user experience as much as possible. And from the from the foundation, I think Robert knows uh something about that because we are asking some something, but uh yeah, for we in the one of the next steps for us is to bring almost everything on chain, even a balance of the user, for example. And so to do so, we we are working on euro, we are in France, in Europe, and so we we would need uh a native euro uh stablecoin on multiverse or even a rapid one but uh really easily exchangeable to actually uh true euro in the bank account. So that's what we we want, and we are working with Robert to making it uh happen uh quickly. Uh we we like to to be annoying with uh with Robert to ask a lot of questions when it's coming, how how it's improving. So, yeah, no, we are we are talking with the foundation, and the foundation can also help us to meet uh bigger bigger communities, uh, to engage with uh with institutions and so on. I think we we can do so much together.
SPEAKER_05:I'm loving it. I love the questions that they are not so much, so it's pretty smoothly going, and then if you push us in the right directions, then it's good. I think one of the let's say here in Europe, we we need to let's say somehow break out of this thing about regulations. I'm not saying that we don't have to keep the regulations, but we can propose better ones and a little bit work on other set of rules until those come. Uh, whether it's you know, the rules on the blockchain or the laws on the blockchain are much more uh much better than any kind of law written in any kind of country because the law on the blockchain is actually executed. So you could argue about that, and you could argue on this. So if people, let's say, want to degen into RWAs, why not? That would be great, and then you would have some kind of movement. And I I would say this kind of degen is that a little bit of uh F regulations and let's do it because we are a power couple community, and this should be our right. So it should be our my right if I want to invest in a fractionalized uh uh RWA that I invest. It shouldn't be taught about, like let's say the some bureaucrat saying that you can do it, but only if you follow these kind of how 500 pages of procedure. My two cents.
SPEAKER_02:No, Robert, I actually saw your face on an important document, and uh we talked about the proof of concept uh today. Um, just a little bit more on what's next for shelters, and then we'll we'll let you go, Adrian. Um, I know you guys are preparing a small pre-seed raise, is that correct? And um, like what are kind of the next steps in in the roadmap?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh totally. We we are looking for fundraising uh at the moment. I think it's uh needed to grow bigger and stronger. Uh we I think the the main uh issue for for us is to be bigger, to reach a broader audience. And uh to do so we are working to an affiliation program so that every user that uh are incentivized to bring their friends on the platform uh on top of the RAA advantages we are pushing for bring uh to bring more advantages for them. And uh, of course, we want to increase the liquidity of the the real estate market, so we are preparing ourselves to for the marketplaces feature of the of shelters. It's a really uh huge uh a huge thing because of regulation, uh because uh of uh it has to be smooth for our user, and we wouldn't be able to do it with our current integration of uh of our wiretless feature. So we we had to remove the our feature, uh our current wireless feature to to migrate to the new one uh for us to be prepared, fully prepared to develop the marketplaces, and we are almost ready on that front. So a lot of uh things is going on. We are also working with partners, real estate partners, to to build link between our project and uh and their um uh project on real estate side. So a lot of uh things are moving uh on our side, so we are pretty excited for the future. And on top of that, if we are uh successful on rising uh pretty fast, I hope the the fastest as possible because it's uh one point that are throwing us uh at the moment. Uh we could be uh it could be very, very, very cool. Uh shelters could be very, very cool by uh by the end of the year. So yeah, we are working on uh a lot of uh things, but uh definitely it's moving.
SPEAKER_00:And and we really have to say it, Europe has the best real estates in the world.
SPEAKER_01:I agree.
SPEAKER_02:I think great garages as well. I mean, that's right. Very foolish on that. Um Adrian, thank you so much. Um, guys, check out shelters uh.finance, I believe. Um to learn more. Um best of luck. Uh keep keep up the great work and and thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for having me. My money. Amazing.
SPEAKER_02:Before we move on to the next guest, I want to take a quick break to celebrate uh something quite remarkable. Um and it's that. Um saw this the other day, Lucian shared it. Um, I don't know, either of you speak to this number. So we're looking at the code commits um for L1 blockchains, and this is, I believe, yeah, since 2010, yeah. Um, and MVX is sitting in fourth place overall. Um, maybe talk a little bit about what that number kind of means and and signifies, guys.
SPEAKER_00:I I think I'll start and um then uh so uh just because um I'm uh part of the DevRel team, I know exactly how it looks like when uh we are looking at a number of commits. And the questions that and fairly the community asks is what's the proof or what's the value of um having such a big number of commits? Because you can either argue that having lots of commits and lots of lines of code, it means that you have lots of lines of depth, indeed. But you have to think that what you are seeing there are the uh thousands of lines of code that um are with plus, but you cannot see the thousands of lines of code which are with plus in the private repos. So this is only 55%, I think, of the repos that we have public, and this is uh what is accounted on, but we have another 45% which are private. And in general, commits are a proof of change. It's not really proof of value, it's a proof of change. It means that there's some velocity around it. It may not be productivity just because you are changing or refactoring uh function 10 times, it just shows velocity. Um, and I think this is very important. Why are we changing things? We are changing things because we want to add more value, and um the value can be seen and can be felt uh only by um going and then getting feedback from the users. Does the does this update improve your life? Does this update improve your experience on the chain? Does it make it easier for you to build using the tools and everything that we are uh uh putting at hand to the developers? Um yeah, I think this is this is what um it's important for for our community to notice that this is nothing but an uh immutable receipt, to say so.
SPEAKER_05:Immutable receipt. I I would say that in our case we have really strict policies in general about commits and merges of how it happens on every team and on the protocol level. So those numbers are really um, let's say uh what's the most important one because those are the commits merged into main. It means that that got into the hands of the developers or into the hands of uh users. Um it also means that you know, in 2018, 19, 2020, everybody and even after that, everybody was calling us a small Eastern European uh uh team who cannot build anything. And and it shows that a small Eastern European uh team can actually beat everybody else out there. If if we look at around, okay, if we measure that we are sin we are on this since 2018 versus the others who are in the top, then I could we could say that we have a bigger velocity than those, and I'm pretty proud of how our velocity works. I don't think a lot of teams could achieve the number of upgrades and the num number of uh governance and every kind we are pushing, especially here in 2025, where especially uh I think yesterday or today, uh the people have showed out the Vega, the uh the speaker release, and then Ardrumeta Bern Barnard and Supernova. And comparing this that to how other uh protocol upgrades are done, this I I think that we managed an architecture which uh speeds up this kind of velocity, and that's quite uh remarkable thing.
SPEAKER_02:Now I'll bring in somebody um who knows a thing or two about writing code and velocity and uh building a lot of products all the time. Um, this is Mihay Aramia from XOXNow, or however you want to pronounce that. Um building a ton of things, and we'll we'll get into some of them. Um, but first of all, uh hello, how are you? What's up? Do you hear me?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, yeah. You are not wearing the good t shirt.
SPEAKER_04:Uh we can let's say yes. I didn't expect uh Robert to be like this and then I feel bad. I thought we changed it. But uh yeah, I didn't have time. Uh Yeah, Lucas, thanks for asking. Um yes, we build a lot. I think if uh SOX no code will be included in that top, we'll take uh rank one. And I want to follow back on what Robert said in the velocity of uh five to six years of uh multiverse X without downtime, because the others they had some downtime along the the period. So that's also important.
SPEAKER_05:Now thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_02:You you've been around forever, right? Like one of the first staking providers when you were about three years old, you got into the game. Um and and like have stuck around uh for a long time, you know, built, I think the the most successful marketplace, now have have um expanded um with the launch pad into DeFi, also building uh a ticketing platform, which we'll talk about at at the end. Um, but give us like a little bit of an insight, um, XOX know sort of like how you started, um, how you developed and and what you guys are building right now.
SPEAKER_04:You want the honest one or the public-facing one?
SPEAKER_02:I mean go for whichever version you're comfortable with. We're comfortable. We can't edit this again. So the earthquake might happen while you're saying something controversial.
SPEAKER_04:That's actually why I didn't come to you exactly actually. Yeah, so being a staking provider is boring by design because you end up doing nothing except getting rewards and looking at them, and this is the case for 99% of staking providers anywhere on blockchain, not just NVX. So we were there at a time where we got in contact with some people that wanted to do a launch pad for NFTs. I know we started designing the first uh standard for NFTs back then. Uh, I think we launched before or a bit after Meyer exchange or in the same time. I don't know, like we launched the first contract on uh I think November 2021. Not sure when Meyer was launched. Uh Robert can tell that, but very early.
SPEAKER_05:Still on November, right?
SPEAKER_04:Same, same like weeks apart or something like that. Yeah, same period. Like the contracts were just getting live on the mainnet. I know there was a period of testing on DevNet, test net, and then live on Maynet. So yeah, we do have one of the oldest contracts, and we started doing that as a playful thing. Okay, what can we build? I know at some point I was playing with the version zero of smart contracts, and I was doing a lot editing. I think that's the first contract ever deployed on chain, even not by me, but I think by many people playing with that one. So that's how we started. We started playing around, ended up that that contract was probably the biggest volume generator on chain with the NFT hyper in that period. And I don't know, 30 plus million dollars worth of Eagle passing through, splitting through uh creators, royalties, like it was huge. Uh, there was no security audits at that point, but uh, let's say it was fine. So we do have some experience with uh handling large amounts of money.
SPEAKER_05:Uh I think that the first time I I saw or interacted with one of those was like the minting of the Stramosh, and uh that your site looked like a government site, so it was like actually that's how we had to check down hundreds of times whether this is the good site or not. Because come on, who is building a uh government site on Web3?
SPEAKER_04:It was like it was actually actually we build the website let's say faster than the contract, and we had the contracts first, and then we were like, okay, let's do something to be able to do a transaction, right? Actually, we changed the website from trans market to the current socks. No, I think five times from scratch. Like we never rebuild, you know, patch it, patch it, patch it. We just did a new repo and said, Let's build it from scratch three times. It's a waste of time, but I think now we have a good version that everyone can use. Uh but uh yeah, that website was creepy. Every time I look at the pictures, I'm like, man, I was so young, but no AI back then, no AI. So I have an excuse.
SPEAKER_02:I think that was the first um NFT I minted too, actually. So that was your your contract. Very cool.
SPEAKER_04:We were the first contract that was doing auto generation of the NFTs. We were not minting the first NFT because people were minting NFTs before us, but it was the send me an eagle and I send you the NFT. So that became a bit dangerous because Eagle had a huge value at that point, and people were just hyped about this. And I think people were like donating Eagle to other people's wallets in millions of dollars. So at that point, you think about okay, let's stop that because bad guys can come. Luckily, it didn't happen. I don't know any incident where this happened as a rug. Rug was not a term that was you know uh popular back then. Even when we did a launch pad, we didn't even know what's a rug because being born on MVX, we didn't really touch AVM to lose money, to get drained, to all that stuff. So yeah, nothing really started as a rug, but then people got smarter and they got uh I don't know, very ingenious in uh scamming other people. I remember the button was not even called buy if you remember Robert when you mean it. It was called on MVX was called donate, like donate a eagle to receive stramoshi. There was no buy or I don't know, pay for this. It was like very weird, but we started uh interestingly.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. So so take us what was the I I forget, was it Easengard? No, was that yours? What was the marketplace called?
SPEAKER_04:That was not mine.
SPEAKER_02:Trust trust, of course.
SPEAKER_04:Trust market, our one, but the first one was E Moon. Uh, if you remember this name, yeah. Not sure who was behind Emoon was anonymous, but I know that they were not using a smart contract, and that became another vulnerability because not sure why they didn't use, but they were using like a personal wallet, like bot wallet that was receiving all the NFTs, doing a lot of tracking, like who sent me this, who paid it, I need to send it back. So I don't know exactly how they were tracking all that because I think it's a mess overall, especially at that time there was no APIs at Advanced and so on. So that got hacked, and uh since then, uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think in some ways this is kind of a theme in your builder journey. It's like you look at something, it's like I can do this better and faster, right? Like you you looked at the marketplace, obviously now you're um you've expanded from there. Um, but like talk to us about the the evolution from marketplace uh to XOX node, like a really, really well-functioning, greatly designed marketplace that even accepts fiat um and and has like a really nice web 2 feel to expanding to now liquid staking, where you just celebrated a milestone. I'll bring that up in a second, and now even building a lending boring protocol.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we how to say we always wanted to be more than an NFT marketplace. Everyone, even when we launched a token, we're like, Tha is just an NFT marketplace. What do you do? Uh, I tend to remind people that we are first a staking provider and then we did the NFTs. So a lot of people say, Oh, why do we define liquid staking now? Come on, I was dreaming this for four years. It's not like we wake up today and you know the guys with the pictures are like they tried something new. Uh, it doesn't work like that, at least in our team. But uh yeah, how we evolve. So basically, we wanted to keep up with all the features from like OpenSea, and everything was uh live on Solana at that point, it was also huge. Uh so everything was lacking in terms of features on MVX, not only on our marketplace, but across others as well. So we were just looking at like let's say global offers was one of the most used features and the most hyped up. It was something that was possible only on AVM because you could put, let's say, orders without actually giving the money because you know the contracts can claim the money from you with the permission later for the more technical people. And because we don't have such thing on MVX, I had to you know hold the people's money in the contract, uh, but somehow invent to replicate the point where you could use that money in multiple parts. Like, you know, the the tweet was like you put one eagold and it's worth a hundred eagles, and everyone went crazy. Like, what do you mean? It's game, it's not possible, it's something like that, right? So that was one of the big boom of a feature. Of course, we had other things like uh custom offers, like specific NFT, uh trade privately, P2P we had at some point, then we came with staking of NFTs, but all these were just take. And we interacted with a lot of businesses in that hype period, like you know, uh a supermarket came to us to be like we want an NFT marketplace, everyone was coming to us. Uh, we were in a position where we need to filter people that are bad intended and not bad intended. Like, who do we help? Do we even attach our name to this? It's not a position where you want to be. Like, we always wanted to be like, we don't do partnerships with people, we don't say we support this project or that. We might help them behind the scenes with technical things, but we don't want to say socks not promotes, it's not a good thing, and I think nobody should do that. Um, and yeah, we said how can people from web two buy NFTs? That's the moment when the supermarket came and say we want to sell this, sell to who? Because you don't have anyone in web 3, right? So you have to bring your people. And at that point, we tried to play with uh uh TwistPay, now XMoney, which now got acquired by MVX. So we we did an integration with them. I think it's their first integration where you could process uh fiat. We had uh many deals with like uh let's say who is on the market, MoonPay, and others to process the payments uh by themselves, but we actually went and did the entire integration ourselves, like basically pass the message through contracts, verify, issue the minting of fiat, like all that automation is done. And even if NFTs are kind of dead now, it's not a waste of time that we did that because now we use it in ticketing and other many things, like you don't build and lose time, right? You just re-implement it in another form, shape, and it's very useful.
SPEAKER_05:I think that you need another set of another retard ideas like your one ego values 100 and some kind of um some kind of uh statement like this because that that moves people like that triggers people. We trigger people you you you trigger with everything right now, whatever you do. But uh that's some kind of it it makes sense that one e-gold uh values 100 in case of global offers, uh, but it makes the people to look into what you are building, and that's a very very cool, cool way of uh making them check what you are building. Yeah, when uh still so if you have some ideas like that, just push me in private.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I have many ideas, but it's uh some of them are I just don't think will work, some of them it's just a game of attention, like even with bober and everything, it's uh it's a game of attention. Like Bober Battle, it's one of the biggest yep. I didn't build it, but uh I see it on on chain that is like crazy. It's just a simple thing, you know. Like we build so many complex contracts that we wanted to go mainstream. No, uh people just want to click, click, flip, and that's all. It's actually the first, it's actually the first contract with the lottery that I was talking in the beginning, like four years ago. Someone took it now and made a UI, and it's a super game.
SPEAKER_05:It's like I I am not a lottery guy, so I will not play because I played like three or four times and losed lost everything. So no, sorry.
SPEAKER_02:Robert also thinks that poker is rigged against him. He la last time we played, there was there was very big, big drama. Yeah, exactly. He was like, it can't happen. The probability is too low. Um, I want to talk about a milestone and and your new protocol because um this is something that um recently happened. Congrats on this is old.
SPEAKER_04:We are already 250.
SPEAKER_02:There you go. Oh my god. I did did you not post it?
SPEAKER_04:I I went it was too fast, it was like two days after this, and we didn't have time to change the you know the designers.
SPEAKER_02:Well, there you go. So, this is only how many weeks old, and you're you've already uh two and a half.
SPEAKER_04:Oh no, exactly. We launched it like slowly, we didn't do marketing for it. We launched like I think 100 days ago. Uh just because it when you don't hype it, and still people don't understand this, they should learn. Don't hype it, launch it over the night. People will see in the morning, there is no traffic, it's not crashing, and everything goes very nice. Um, it's it's a thing that we practice at Sox now.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I at one point I was holding 10% of uh small liquid seeking.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now same I was, but uh now many people uh hold that. Um yeah, let's talk about it because uh I was thinking about this protocol since I don't know, it was hyped on Lido. Like I think we had the first discussions with uh MVX uh 2022 summer, or when that was Robert. It was like very, very in the beginning of everything on Ethereum with taking. Uh we actually started to do some contracts back then. Uh how to say we drafted some things, then we learned more things, and then MVX made it uh public, open source. So yeah, that was the beginning. Then I kind of abandoned the idea to do it ourselves because we were pretty busy with NFT marketplace, was still how to say hype volumes and all this stuff. So I didn't really have time to focus on my side project of liquid staking at that point. I started to advise others, I was happy with that. Then everyone knows what happened, and then I decided okay, fuck it, I'll do it. So I did it.
SPEAKER_02:Uh and now you're you're I think your uh lending boring is already on testnet or or going on testnet?
SPEAKER_04:It's on devnet for some time for people that actually follow us closely, and they see that actually they see that we actually work, you know. Uh like actually, Claudio said if you actually watch on uh on GitHub, you can see everything. And I wanted to comment on that with Claudio that I see everything you do, Claudio, on uh uh on the GitHub, but I don't know if I should tell to people because then they will say, Oh, insider, it happened all the time. All the time when I tweet something, people think like you guys tell me, no man, it's just on fucking GitHub. It's like the commit name and the line or the branch name, or I actually scared Mihai a few weeks ago with uh something, and he was like, From where do you know this? And he didn't know that his dev actually leaked it on the GitHub.
SPEAKER_02:Let's talk about the story because that's an interesting thing, right? This open source um coding and and building, you guys are on DevNet. I think you put out some amount of money in bounties to um to hack your protocol or test it. Um, talk a little bit about sort of the ethos behind um that like and and the different approach that you're taking, maybe over uh others with security audits and how that works.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, in terms of security, I still believe MVX is one of the most easy uh blockchain to build on, luckily made by uh Andre Marnico on the framework and uh Robert on the VM and other teams on the on the node level. But to build contracts, you usually interact only with the VM and a smart contract framework. So it's it's actually I had a discussion with someone from Tone Foundation why nobody's building on Tone, and she was like, Oh, can you can you uh check uh how you can build on tone and tell me feedback uh why it's so hard? And I was like, because I cannot focus on what I want to build when I try to build on tone. Like this is a very slightly important factor when you choose to build on a protocol, you should focus only on the business logic. So when I go to build something for SOC, no, I don't think how to build, I think how does this should work, right? So that allows uh a lot of clarity and security. And then I bet a bit on our team because as you said, I'm here since the beginning, and I am kind of the one sometimes pushing Robert with bugs. I feel like I am annoying him and Marinika as well, so uh it's it's uh very funny, but uh annoying sometimes because I have to wait for a fix and that delays me sometimes, but I understand why I need to be delayed because I know the consequences of being hacked after that. So that's why actually we also delay landing now a bit or something, but we found another fix. So before I even publish these things with security and bounties, I trust what I code and what I audit myself. Then I also work with uh Artha team not to do audit, but I pay for consultancy because I like more to brainstorm with people what I call rather than just you know give them the code, they read it and tell me this is this is this. Right? It's way better if two minds are reading the same code and uh you know he's pointing something out, I point something out, and we debate. Right? I like this approach. And after these things are done internally, we launch it publicly and say, hey, if you break it, instead of paying an auditor to give us uh a PDF, I give you money. Right? Uh it it did work very well with liquid staking, nothing was found. We launch it, we try to break it multiple times, but the code is so simple that there is nothing to break.
SPEAKER_05:Like if you just you know you actually built in a contract like was audited three or four times before, just just yeah, looking around.
SPEAKER_04:Because we said the base one that we said in 2022.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, but that's that's that's how uh open source and composer bitty works. Uh one for example, I think that liquid staking is one of those those uh those things which was pretty good that we just open sourced and did not uh deliver on it as a product, and the same with NFT marketplaces, because then other builders could take it up, have full-time focus on it, and improve in ways which we did not see because we had other 10 things to do. So I think we will continue to experiment, or I think there are other contracts as well already published on our open source repositories.
SPEAKER_04:It was one of the most uh let's say untouch. It's a bit old what you have there, but it's a good starting point, like yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So so we just launch like whatever we experiment on, we just open source it, and then people can just take it up and make a business out of it. Um that's and when people do that, we pretty much like it.
SPEAKER_04:Just don't take it and deploy like that. Please check the code because uh it's not just perfect all the time.
SPEAKER_02:It's uh Mihai, two questions before we'll let you go, also um, and code some more. Um, one, when when launch, of course, lending um when live. Um, and then also let's talk about an event uh in in a couple of days because that ties in to the next section. Um, when are you guys gonna planning on launching the lending?
SPEAKER_04:We're actually auditing it with the MVX team also in open. Like if people would check GitHub, there is like a commit and so on from uh team people from uh MVX. So we done that, nothing was found. There are some uh let's say nice things to improve in the code uh uh let's say source code. Uh we are actually preparing to deploy a DevNet campaign with funding, basically pay people to test it. We created a ZLE campaign based on like the level of the user. You can start from like beginner where you just supply some money, you can go to medium where you pay from your collateral, a lot of new features coming on this protocol, something new for the entire ecosystem. And then you can arrive at the expert mode where you are like long and short through the landing, through looping, one click, you sign once, and you do 20x leverage uh exposure. Uh, we have a full integration with XExchange for like LP tokens. You can literally hedge against them, you can borrow LP tokens to let's say for the most advanced people, you can do what Fluid is doing right now on Ethereum, where you have smart depth and smart collateral. That means you can borrow LP tokens or supply LP tokens or borrow and split them and do something else with the money. So that's something very flexible for the chain. I would say next month I would like to have it. We wanted to have it in Q1, but as I say, there were some bugs at the LP pricing. We found the solution. Uh we delayed, we wanted to wait for Bernard to get some uh new features from there, but we don't really need it.
SPEAKER_05:Uh so you need it, but uh you figured it out. Uh workaround.
SPEAKER_04:It's like you know, it's a it's like a dance. Do you wanna risk it or not? Considering that there will be not much LTV at the beginning, we can say we can ship it like this and just uh you know observate without being anything that people can drain funds or anything like that, and then we we upgrade it with uh Bernard. So I would say next uh month.
SPEAKER_02:Amazing. Well, last thing you're building, and this is something I I will have the pleasure of using in three days, two days, um, in Istanbul for for a nice event. Um Zontix. Um, just give us the very short TLDR. Um, what are you building there? Why are you building it, and how far are you on it?
SPEAKER_04:So we took everything SOXNO related and we just branded it as Zontix. If you want the short story, uh but no, it's it's for real. Like there is a lot of infrastructure from the entire NFT thing that we built for the past four years. Like all the tickets are again NFTs behind it using a modified launchpad version of that contract launched in 2021, uh connected with uh Fiat as well. We had to build from scratch that web solution that you use, and everyone that comes to Zontix used to log in. Uh it's kind of like uh the other solution from Multiverse X, but a bit specified for us. Uh I just forgot the name, XLS, yes. Uh so it's similar with that. We are still working on improving our own version because we find some limitations on people's devices. I would like to go for the best key, but it's not that uh stable yet on many devices. Um it's not about that solution. I know your solution is about APL doesn't allow to save the way your implementation had. I don't know why. Don't ask. It was crashing on my device. Um yeah, why we build it? Because NFTs again are a bit dead. I am more towards real-world assets in terms of everything, like even the finance and the protocol of uh lending and borrowing will go in that direction at some point. And you know, when it's bear market, you have nothing to do. So you need ticketing because events in the world are happening all the time, and there is also a big opportunity to improve them. If you saw in the US, they are signing new legislation for uh uh anti-competitive law with Ticketmaster because uh they take everything, super huge fees, not transparent, bots, nobody knows who is buying because it's not on chain to see who holds all the supply of the tickets. Uh all these things at some point will matter. And I think once the entertainment industry kind of gets more not smart, but more open to new things, they will explore the fact where you can raise money through this ticketing on-chain from people to bootstrap your event, like a pre-sale, uh, you know, because right now to do a huge event in Bucharest, you need to put yourself the money, not let the community raise that money for you. Like if you want to bring Beyonce in Romania, you cannot just pay Beyoncé two million and risk that nobody will buy your ticket to come to see Beyoncé. You cannot say, hey, if we raise this amount of money from all the people at Interstate, we can sign Beyoncé to come and sing here in summer, right? So you can use that with this solution uh very easily. You can also resell your tickets easier right now, which is not possible anywhere in a decentralized way. Uh it's possible on Ticketmaster, of course, but uh they control everything and they don't give any royalties back. It's like, hey, you buy it from us, we get the money and the fees, and that's all. The event is just a third-party, let's say, loser because uh yeah. So I see potential. Our app is building well. I actually told Lucas that he might have the first version for scanning and seeing attendees. I give some videos on uh on X sometimes, but we don't want to release it yet because we are still working on uh on let's say uh API login. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Amazing. Yeah, and and I think it's it's so cool to to like this approach to building where really you can get get very direct, very good, very real user feedback as it happens, fix it on the spot. We have uh a bunch of telegram groups, obviously, where we're constantly giving feedback. And yeah, congrats um on that. Really looking forward to using it um this weekend. Uh, congrats on everything else uh you're building. Um, best of luck uh for the launch of the lending protocol. Hope to have you back once that's all out there. And then um, yeah, we'll keep chatting, uh keep up the good work, and we'll talk very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye. Um, we committed internally to not keeping making the show very long. I don't even know how to keep it shorter. Um, still, like let's let's quickly um go over some highlights that we wanted to mention. Um, this is the um events that we were talking about. MVX was actually at the schools. Um, your colleague um Dragos was teaching at university. We have a meetup going on in London right now. Bottom left, you see a snippet of that. We had the um Paris blockchain week with Benjamin uh hosted a side event. We're about to host another side event for a different event here in Istanbul in a couple of days. And I want to mention this because this is um sort of cool. NFTs are are kind of quietly maybe making a comeback a little bit on MBX. Um we have Bugas leading the charge here um with a very cool SoFi campaign that's happening right now. Um you can participate. I think there is something like$3,000 in prizes per week. Um, very cool. And you know, real storytelling-driven um NFT brand, lifestyle brand, transcending um Web3. We just saw uh Kleinosaurus, a different NFT project, actually win a Webby Award, an internet award. So this is very much possible. Also wanted to give a shout out to another great NFT project that just sold out another collection on MVX, which is also very interesting in terms of bridging um Web 2, Web3, this in this case, even a metaverse still, but a very, I think, smartly constructed one in the Polynesian Islands um DynoVox, um really doing some outstanding work um and you know getting getting out there, finding new use cases and all of that. Um with the campaign that I just mentioned, I also want to mention a couple of things in terms of um using the chain, creating content like we saw it for the Bugas um SoFi campaign. We do have the ongoing quest, of course, right now for this uh show, create content, get rewarded. We always almost through X Alliance have a bunch of quests open um that that have a big range. Um and you can make real EGLD. Um, you know, as we were saying, the markets, if the markets continue uh doing that, like if you win this quest now, your your grand uh children might still thank you. Um post art um money is a great thing um that we've been uh experimenting with um both from X Alliance and Multiverse X. Um nice, fun, easy, simple on-chain tasks tracked in a really, really compelling way, I think. Um, and a great innovation also, I think, in the way that they're approaching this. And I just wanted um to shout that out. I also think Ludi campaign is wrapping with a huge prize fund. Um, so check that out as well. But there are a lot of opportunities in the ecosystem, and I won't have anybody tell me otherwise because you're just not paying attention. Um that's that's kind of I think a wrap on on like just a super brief uh open. Overview of what's going on in the community. And I think before we wrap the show, we have a video to share, which now I need to figure out how to do that because I was just sent this. Let me see if I can share my screen for this correct video.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe make sure it's the correct video you're sharing.
SPEAKER_02:You want to tell us anything about this before I uh press.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's um I'll be very short just because uh I'll try to fit in the let's say maximum five minutes that we have left. I've started um two weeks ago to write like a manifesto. I stopped for a week or two uh just to breathe some air. Uh I'll continue.
SPEAKER_02:Uh countdown stuff on that.
SPEAKER_00:Countdown. Just because I yeah, you're you're right. Um, yeah, so it's about fundamentum. Uh that's how I called it, just because um it's not a passion or something like this, but usually when I'm trying to find a name for something, I'm thinking about how would the Latins would frame it, or Greeks, or you know, and and I'm searching through terms. The fundamentum too European, yeah. To Latin. Um the thing is that fundamentum is just a placeholder for what we are actually building, and that's linked to the video that Lucas will share in uh in a couple of minutes, and it's very tightly coupled to what AI actually would mean, um not only for blockchain industry, but for the entire world. I mean, it's about companies, and I have friends who are working at companies, huge companies, I will not name them, who are ignoring AI. I think it's too late for a company to ignore AI. I think it's it's just a roadkill. Probably they will become um in I I cannot say some number, six months, one year, I don't know exactly, they will become irrelevant. Why? Just because at this moment the generative models can automate probably more than 30% of work hours. Um, and it means okay, it it may not be the great um the greatest uh value for it or the greatest quality. If you are a good developer, you can still make use of that speed and automation that the generative models offer you. So with the same 10 people team, you can deliver much more. Um, so companies who are pretending that this is not true, they are volunteering for extinction.
SPEAKER_05:I would say that they are already dead.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, true. And then there are the companies who are integrating AI. We are also integrating AI. As um Robert was mentioning at the beginning of the podcast, he tried um to bring vibe coding, he said, but actually using AI in some of the processes. I'm doing that as well, and many of our colleagues are doing, and not only in the uh generating code and um uh reviewing code and checking for um problems with your code, but actually also for um let's say having like a personal friend, a smart one with whom you can change one or two ideas, and then only afterwards going to uh Robert and say, Hey, what do you think about this? I'm I'm not trying to lose some of your time, your precious time, but I'm I'm I refined this idea and I came to you. So there are lots of companies who are integrating AI, and that's very cool. That they are going to keep the pace to say so. Um I think there are lots of companies investing in AI, but very few of them are mature with AI. They don't know exactly how and where this will go. And then there are the companies who are building the rails, the companies who are building the vehicles. And due to that, so we we have a background. Uh um, we worked together at a very big automatic automotive company before. The vehicles, in general, so an automobile has an engine that can be found on several other um um companies who are selling cars. So you can find one on uh the same engine on uh Daimler, you can find the same engine on Renault and so on. The thing which sells the car is actually the story, the way how you feel when you drive the car. And uh here I'm thinking about the engine as the AI like models or whatever LLMs generated or created by OpenAI, by um Anthropic, by Google, Twitter or X, and so on. And they are building the engines, but I believe that the companies who are going to build the vehicles are the ones who in the end will be the winners of the entire AI um, let's say, revolution. And um the the manifesto that I tried to to write is how blockchain is actually, without us knowing, was actually built for AI, or how AI is built for blockchain and how they uh they merge into something very beautiful, um, which is a computation or or a computation engine, a computation machine, a computation vehicle, and how can we present it to everyone and here everyone I'm meaning web 2 people or people who are not even web 2, uh to understand uh the way how they can make use of both blockchain and AI in the same time, and um it's only with good vibes that it's so only through good vibes we can we can achieve that, and um very soon. Uh I know that I said very soon, uh, and I it was like two weeks. I said very soon, uh, one month ago. I think it was three weeks ago, actually. Uh but now we are closer, very close, like less than one week away, I hope. Um yeah, and uh and we are trying to to feed those uh pieces here and there, and uh I think the video is something like uh let's not call it a countdown, but building momentum of the of the entire thing. Um, and we are going to post more and more uh into this idea until uh we are going to to to create the story behind what it will actually be uh in the end.
SPEAKER_02:And with that, I will roll the tape. Tell me if you can see the screen and then I will um roll it. I hope this is good.
SPEAKER_00:I see you in some shorts.
SPEAKER_06:Is it the right video, but it's not really that that is that is the preview.
SPEAKER_02:That is what we'll the teaser we'll leave you with. Um let me stop the screen share and uh kick it back to you. Any last thoughts? I mean, give us I I think we'll just leave it here obviously on on the fundamentum, um, the vibey parts. Um I'll remind everybody out there that um there is a quest about this um uh podcast in particular, uh, where you can earn money. There's also uh a bunch of other quests out there that I just referenced. Um, there is also a call always to give us feedback. What do you want to talk about? What do you want to hear about? What um, you know, what else could we do as an element of the show? Um we are we have a lot of ideas of things to integrate, but always love to um hear from you. Um and yeah, with that, I'll pass it back to the to the multiverse X headquarters in in CBU maybe for some closing thoughts, and then I'll let you get back to the to the rest of the marathon meetings.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think we will continue some meetings a little bit. Uh but today was super productive. We have, I think we made a big whiteboard full of sticky notes, and we've planned like around three years of work into three months period or four months period. So, but we will probably deliver on that. We are quite, I think quite confident that we can make it. Uh, so that's the power of a small Eastern European team.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, full focused. Um, actually, we tried the fist of five um voting of confidence, and uh we are at four out of five, so which is very good. Um, we have some very ambitious plans, um, and um we are quite motivated on on delivering on that. I think that up until our next um momentum podcast, lots of things will change and will happen. Um, as Lucas was mentioning, Andromeda should be on Maynet. Um, let's fight for that. And probably the the governance vote for Bernard should be already uh ongoing. So, again, let's fight for that. And also our secret project should be launched. Let's fight for that.
SPEAKER_05:One of the secret projects.
SPEAKER_00:One of the of them, yeah, of the few, which are all private, so uh the the the percentage. Um yeah, keep building it and just the feedback that we receive is very valuable, even though uh you may not notice immediate results. We are working on improving the experience from the user experience, the developer experience, the builder experience. We are learning from what others are doing right, we are learning from what others are doing wrong. We don't know the perfect recipe for whatever may drive success. Um but as the graphics are showing, we have velocity, and when we feel and we see that something is wrong, we very fast fix it. When we see that something can be improved, we very fast improve it, and we make it open source for real builders to make use of it and compose great apps. The killer app is not out there yet, and it may be our chance to have the killer app launched first on Multiverse X.
SPEAKER_02:Guys, thank you very much. Um, thank you. Have a great evening, everybody. Thank you for tuning in. Um, and we will be back in just about a month, the last Thursday of every month, so May something, I'm sure. Um and uh yeah, looking forward to talking about all of the updates till then. There really is so much happening that will be shared very soon. One to two weeks um of patience is all we ask every day. Um, and and there is a lot of uh stuff going on, pushing very hard, as you can see, not just from the commits, but from these uh conversations here from from hopefully a little bit of a view behind the scenes. And yeah, grateful um for you guys to provide this to all of us. And um, yeah, keep building and see all of you guys very soon.
SPEAKER_00:Let's get back to work. See you. Bye bye.
SPEAKER_02:Cheers.
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