But I Won't Do That

Where we side eye the lyrics and videos of some of our favorite songs

But I Won't Do That

Doggone It!

June 28, 2026 • Becky & Dan

0:00 | 59:58

In which Becky and Dan have a good laugh at the worst song from Michael Jackson's Thriller, his collaboration with Paul McCartney and the first single "The Girl Is Mine." Along the way they ask some important questions, such as Why would the King of Pop say "doggone"? Can you believe MTV wouldn't play MJ in the early 1980s? Just how bad was the Michael film? And I mean, have you seen Leaving Neverland?

We'd love to hear from you! Leave a comment on Youtube, Spotify, or email as at butiwontpod@gmail.com

Artwork: Billi Rakov

Music Credits: LonPeakMusic and Vodovoz Music Production

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Alright, there we go.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

It was a Porsche.

SPEAKER_03 0:04

It was Well they yeah, I I deleted the first part so they won't even know what that's in reference to.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Or I'm take two because somebody fired up their annoyingly loud Porsche. And then just sat there idling in it.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

It sounded like a really loud generator. Out cheers, babe.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Out cheers? Yeah, we got we got iced coffee and champagne.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Happy Saturday. I don't know about this one.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Not loving.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

All right. I can live in that.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

We'll make do. It's uh officially summer.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Yeah. It was my mom's birthday yesterday.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Oh yeah. 84. Yeah. That's great. Oh we all called to be 84. 84 and active, that's the thing. That's the key with your mom. 84 and active.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, she's super active.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Well that's the dream.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

She's radioactive. She's internet active.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Well yeah. She is internet active. Uh we know yeah, you know. Lots of rabbit holes to fall down.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

If you're susceptible to them.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

After her stroke, it she's like the one hand she's having a hard time typing, you know? And I'm kind of like, oh good.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Yeah, she can point and click that mouse, she can find her way to uh the next QAnon the next reference. The next conspiracy.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Great. Um so uh what let's let's see for a second here. Let's let's talk about what are some um famous duets that you can think of, like like two stars that norm normally would not sing together. They weren't a band together, they but they came together for a song. What comes to mind? Famous duets.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Kenny Rogers and who was it, Dolly Parton?

SPEAKER_03 2:18

Islands in the Stream. I love it. Great song. I love that song.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

So good. Um Ozzie Osborne did one with um Ozzie? Yeah. Okay. I love his voice actually. Um with didn't he do some like leather and lace song or something?

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Well no, that was that leather Leather and Lace was uh Dawn Finley Mac girl of C V Next.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

That's that's a great song, actually. The name always kind of bothered me, Leather and Lace. But the but the is that that's a nice song? Um thinking like more recently. More recently would have been some good now.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

They call them collabs.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Yeah, now it's collabs and it's like but they used to do a I know I saw this, like there's a funny video on Instagram. It was actually the it was like the New York Times music critic did it about like how many times Maroon 5 had a guest rapper, like so many times, like like clearly like just the labels trying to get crossover appeal, and it's like Maroon 5 becomes like a gateway drug to rap.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

But Adam Levine does have such a black voice, like I think he has a Stevie Wonder-ish voice, it's like that blue-eyed soul kind of voice.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Yeah, yeah, like like uh Daryl Hall.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, I like Adam Levine's voice, but like sometimes you I totally like the weekend. I know he's black, but he has such a Stevie Wonder voice.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

I love him.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Yeah, I just feel like there's a lot more like just collabs now that aren't a sort of standout duet. Like maybe back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Not a duet.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

Okay, here we go. So consulting uh our our research assistant, Google, Under Pressure, David Bowie and Freddie Mercury.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Oh, what about that song David Bowie did a song with Mick Jagger? Dancing in the street. No, they're waiting for a friend.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Oh, waiting.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Oh, yeah, waiting, but waiting on a friend. That's a good song.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

That's a good song. Yeah, there are a lot of goods. There were a lot like like uh in the 60s, Marvin Gaye did a bunch, um, Ain't No Mountain High Enough, but Tammy Terrell wasn't like her own star on her own.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Right. But Mick Jagger and David Bowie, those two are huge.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

How about this one? Um, Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper. It was a movie, it was a scene from a movie, but it but it ended up being such a great well.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

What's interesting about that to me is that he he's very famous, but known for something else. Yeah, that's bad. That's a very unique that song, Shallows. Yeah, oh god, it gives me such chills. And their chemistry is so good, I wanted them to be become married.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

Um, here's here's what I like, actually. Um I don't know if we should call this a duet, but pretty famous collab. Empire State of Mind, Jay-Z and Alicia Keys. Great song.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

I mean, she's singing, she's singing the chorus. It's not so much a like a like a duet, but it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Along those lines, what about Eminem and Dido? The stand.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Oh, yeah. You know, it's more of a sample, though.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

I know, but that's such a good one. That they did perform it live on um like MTV, I think.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

It was so good.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

Yeah. Anyway, um, so it's it's actually, I think, pretty rare for megastars to do it.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

You get like maybe smaller or or acts you've never heard of that will be brought on to a bigger project. But today we are uh talking about.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

What about George Michael? Sorry, and Elton John. Don't let the sun. I guess that's a remake.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

No, no, no. That was that that was good. That was an Elton John song that that George Michael was performing at a concert and then surprised the audience by bringing Elton John on. Which what which is a great moment in that song because the crowd loses their mind and you can really hear it. That's a good one too. So yeah, brought this up because today we're talking about two absolute titans in a duet. Like, probably like if you're talking about two in terms of their star power, this might be the biggest duet ever.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

I know, but do you think Michael was he wasn't yet because wasn't Thriller going to be released?

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Today we're talking about Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney, the first single off Thriller, The Girl is Mine. It actually was the second time they collaborated, but their other song, Say Say, Say, much better song, I think comes out after this, though. So this is the first release collaboration between Michael and Paul McCartney. The girl is mine. Uh, the dog gone girl is mine.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Doggone.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

And we gotta talk about this song. We gotta talk about, we gotta talk about these two working together, and we gotta talk about the Michael movie. Because we were gonna do this one last time, and we ended up doing Maneater because we wanted to watch the Michael movie first, and it did not disappoint.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Well, it did it disappointed.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

But in the back if you want to watch something and rip on it, watch that.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

God, what a movie. Um, so let's just go back here for a second. Uh, Thriller is uh the album. Thriller was released November 29th, 1982, produced by Quincy Jones, who it also worked on Off the Wall. Um, they recorded in Westlake, Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

Uh yeah, such a little um with the ongoing backlash against disco music, Jackson transitioned his sound with thriller featuring pop, post-disco, and RB. Uh it went number one for 37 non-consecutive weeks. Uh, I believe it is, yes, in 1984, it became the best-selling album of all time with sales of over 30 mil copies.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Is it still?

SPEAKER_03 8:12

I think it still is.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

Let's see here. Best-selling. Um, here's their list of albums that have sold 40 million copies or more. So, number one is the aforementioned thriller. And I gotta say, would not in a million years have picked this at number two.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

No.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

ACDC Back in Black, the second best-selling album of all time.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Under this hard rock genre, like there's that many 50 million copies. How is it possible?

SPEAKER_03 8:42

It must be just like the list gets even weirder though, because at number three, it's the soundtrack to the bodyguard.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

What?

SPEAKER_03 8:50

45 million copies.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

That makes me wonder what all those songs are.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

It just was I Will Always Love You just that popular that just people ran out to get it?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

The Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

I mean, also weird, cool.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

I think that moody. I think the Dark Side of the Moon holds the record for longest time on the charts. I want to say it like it spent something like some ungodly number, hundreds of weeks on the charts. The Eagles' greatest hits, the first half, 71 to 75.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

As it should be.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

The Eagles Hotel California. But again, here we go. So after the Eagles, so that's you got MJ A C D C, Whitney Houston, Pink Floyd, Eagles twice, Shania Twain's. Come on over. 40 million copies.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Good for her.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

But I guess, you know, Fleetwood Mac's rumors.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Shania beats out Fleetwood Mac.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Meatloaf's bat out of hell.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Babe, your favorite.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

And the genre, glam rock. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

But also, this is the namesake of our podcast.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

Exactly. But I won't. But I will do that. And Saturday Night Fever. Saturday Night Fever just getting under the wire at 40 million copies.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Wow. Kind of crazy. It's a very interesting list. It's very disparate. You know? Don't you think? Like it's kind of like.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's it's cool that two of the top three are black artists. Yes. I mean, that's that's a pretty interesting. Um, and then you've got sort of some of the, you know, some of the, you know, in Pink Floyd and Eagles, some of the classics, Fleetwood Mac, but then also, you know, ACDC, Shania Twain. I gotta love Meatloaf being in there though. What a what a what a win for humanity that Meatloaf has sold 40 million copies of that album.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

I mean, and his father wanted to kill him. And look at what he has offered to look what he did. History, society, the music industry, like glam rock in general.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Almost creating, do you think that he created a like a genre with that album?

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Like, was that an a well it's the genre is musical. It's like rock musical. Okay. Right? I mean, that's basically what he's doing. All right. All right, so Thriller uh comes out in '82. The first single was The Girl Is Mine. And um, yeah, we gotta talk about this song. Um, so we're gonna take a break, let the uh let our theme music play, and we come back. The dog gone girl is mine. You're listening to But I Won't Do That an irreverent dive into the lyrics, music, and videos of some of our favorite songs. All right, we're back. Becky's refilled the champs. You know, it's interesting. I was saying before we started recording, you know, Thriller, the music's amazing, but it's also famous for its videos. Yeah. You know, you think of the thriller video, of course, and beat it. Um, and yet The Girl is Mine did not have a music video, which maybe says something about how they were thinking about it. We'll c we'll get to sort of why it was released as a single in a bit, but but that maybe suggests something about how Michael and Quincy were thinking about it, that they didn't even bother to make a video.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Well, I just want to ask you what you thought about the fact that um in regards to the selling of the album, like how much did the video key into that? Like, did because that video was so insane.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Which video?

SPEAKER_00 12:32

The thriller video.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

Thriller, yeah. Yeah, no, I think I think that I don't I don't know to what extent. I'm sure I'm sure the video and the music worked together to to push the sales, but it it also was the dawn of MTV. And and they and Michael and Michael and his team realized that it wasn't just about making not just making videos, but almost making like mini movies.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

That's for Thriller is, right? Yeah. It's like a like a short film. And I'm sure that boosted sales. So this from uh Paul McCartney fan website. On Christmas Day 1980, Paul McCartney received a phone call from an anonymous female fan with an American accent and a voice of pure helium. Or so he gathered upon picking up the receiver. Quote, someone rang me up and this high voice I didn't recognize said, Hi, Paul, McCartney recalled. I thought, this is a girl fan, and how the hell did she get my number? I was quite annoyed. His mood quickly changed from annoyed to overjoyed. It wasn't a girl, it was Michael Jackson, and he basically said, Do you want to make some hits? A syrupy back and forth between Jack and McCartney. The girl is mine is no classic. The spoken outro between the duo could curl toes at 50 yards.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

I always I just think about like we were just listening to the song before. And what about the girl? You know what I mean? Like, she's not anywhere, like she doesn't have anything to say. Like these two are just like, no, she's mine, no, she's mine. And she's like, I just want to hear what she would have to say about this whole thing. She'd probably be like, I don't like either of you guys.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

And also, did Michael like this description, like being called a girl with a voice on helium? Like, did he read this?

SPEAKER_03 14:24

McCartney's like, look at here's here's the cover.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

What a what did either of them like there's no stylus in?

SPEAKER_03 14:31

McCartney's wife took the photo. Linda McCartney took the photo. Look at Michael's wearing that, look at that 80s like uh baseball jacket, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Satin baseball jacket. But the but this is like they met, like neither of them took a shower that day. Yeah, it's like they were meeting, they were doing, they were doing but and why did they choose this as the cover? Like they didn't think it was gonna be anything. That's what it says to me, this cover, because it's like, oh yeah, come on. They're like, look at the background, they're like posing in front of someone's doorway. It's like everything about it speaks to like spontaneity, but not in a good way, not like cool paparazzi, like Terry Richardson vibe. It's like day, no like thought to outfit, no like no shower, like sleep in eyes, not brush teeth, maybe food in teeth. Like it's a horrible picture.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

It's a horrible photo. So this song was recorded. Uh McCartney was 40. So we're about uh 12 years removed from the breakup of the Beatles. He's got a pretty good solo career going. MJ is about 25. Uh, and Michael sings every night she walks right in my dreams. Since I met her from the start, I'm so proud I'm the only one who is special in her heart. The chorus, The Girl is Mine, the Doggone Girl is mine. I know she's mine because the doggone girl is mine.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

What dumb lyrics. I know she's mine because she's mine.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

And also, why doggone? Like, isn't there any number of other like descriptors in that place?

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Yeah, we were talking about this. I mean, I think this is probably the the probably the cringiest Michael line. Actually, I don't in light of what came out about him, it's probably worse, but this is the one that people think of like, why? Just why Michael?

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Why would you use why did he write the song?

SPEAKER_03 16:33

Uh I think he wrote it with Quincy Jones. Um, well, I get that in a second. But here, Dog Gone emerged in the 19th century as an informal, family-friendly euphemism for goddamn. Uh originated, uh, it first shows up in uh 1819, uh, just as a way of people not having to curse.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Well, okay, I could see that.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

I mean, I don't know why in 1982 it needed to be used.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Well, because he was a Jehovah's Witness and they do not cuss. But I I also think you could have said, the girl is mine, the girl is mine, mine, mine. You don't have to say doggone girl.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Like the track was written by Jackson. Okay, well co-produced with Quincy, but he wrote it. So he yeah, he threw he put that lyric in there. The doggone girl is mine, and then in comes Paul in the second verse. I don't understand the way you think. Saying that she's yours, not mine, sending roses in your silly dreams, really just a waste of time because she's mine. The doggone girl is mine. Don't waste your time because the doggone girl is mine.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Sometimes, like, do people ever read each other's lyrics if they're gonna do something and just go, I'm not singing this?

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

What is this? This cat.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

Oh, yeah, it's uh it's a pop-up ad for meow meow not meow mix, meow remix.

unknown 18:02

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

And so the cat's rapping. Wow. It goes back and forth with really just inane lyrics until we get to the final, the spoken ending on the fade out. Michael, you're not going to fight we're not gonna fight about this, okay? Michael, ha ha, Paul. I think I told you I'm a lover, not a fighter. Who's fighting?

SPEAKER_00 18:27

You could not pick a more like sedated conflict if you But all are they like both lying on beds, like you know, the grandparents in you know, uh Charlie and the chocolate factory, like singing from bed. Like that's how lacking in fighting. They're not a fighting stance at all. They're they're sitting in an office. They're like, they're not there's no fighting here. There's not even like a put your dukes up, like in any way here. It is these two. Also, they both sound gay. They both sound like they'd rather have a guy.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Oh, it's it is like like the girl, what is the girl doing while this is happening?

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Rolling her eyes and saying, You guys want to date my brother?

SPEAKER_03 19:16

First of all, Paul's 40 and MJ's 25. Like, it's pretty depressing to be a 40-year-old man like fighting with a guy in his 20s.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Well, because then it it it like it implies that the girl is 23, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Yeah, I guess. I mean, well, because who is the girl? What's this girl doing? This is happening.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

That video that we watched that you just told me to watch. Yeah. That was not the video for the song. Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

So so they made no music video, and then later, I and I if I remember this correctly, it was kind of made in support of Paul McCartney's next tour. He would show it like it like at the at his shows, and it's not a music video, it's like basically like behind the scenes footage of the recording of the song. But also the most boring behind-the-scenes footage.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Like you want to see Michael wearing a turquoise sweater, like chatting and answering the telephone. There's long shots of him on the phone. He's just on the phone talking, like his mouth is moving, he's not doing one thing interesting. Like it's bad. A lip reader might be engaged. But I mean, I was just like, what is he saying? I like No, it's bad. And what does this have to do with the song at all? I guess it's the behind the scenes of making that song. Oh, maybe, but he's sitting at a desk holding a ruler, talking to someone, chatting.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

No, it's it's it's really bad. And then you get occasional shots of them actually singing the song with the headphones on and the microphone, and then it cuts away, and they're yeah, like sitting at a conference table.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

But somebody staring at each other. Somebody's trying on someone else's glasses, and you don't even know who this person is. It's like some random white guy in his 50s. It's like, and everyone, Quincy, Quincy is just perennial cool, right? Like any picture of Quincy through any era. Like Quincy Jones is probably the coolest guy that ever existed. And he just looks cute. I could look at Quincy all day.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

So just but he's hardly in it though.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

I know he's just terrible shots of and behind the like he's at the box, kind of the whatever, the producers, like those little console, yeah, smiling and nodding his head.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

So to the I'm a lover, not a fighter line, Paul responds, I've heard it all before, Michael. She told me I'm her forever lover, you know? Don't you remember? I mean, what is this like Thomas the Train, like love story? I mean, this is just the most idiotic.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

And at this time, like, I was sort of struck by watching that behind the scenes video that this is probably before he actually did any weird anything, like spending the night with boys and stuff. Like it seems

SPEAKER_03 22:00

He was still living at home.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah. So I feel like he's still clean. There's no regards to that. Yeah. He's still, so he still is young. I think he's a virgin. So yeah, Virgin wrote those lyrics. Those are virgin lyrics right there. He you um she told me I'm her forever lover. Who would say that? But like, you know how in that Michael movie, sorry I keep bringing that up, but he is always reading the Peter Pan book.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Yeah. Like his character's a little heavy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah, it's very Peter Pan heavy-handed. Pan-handed.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Pan-handed.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

But the so only a person who's like a virgin that loves Peter Pan and fancies that himself, as you know, the leader of the Lost Boys is gonna write something like this.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Well, and after the Forever Lover line, Michael responds, Well, after loving me, she said she couldn't love another. Paul, is that what she said? Michael, yeah, she said it. You keep dreaming.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Oh my god, third grade. Like, yeah, yeah, she said it. Keep dreaming.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

That's what she said. And then and then Paul sings, I don't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

I don't believe it.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

And then it just fades out with just the girl is mine, mine, mine.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

I mean, it's I don't believe it because it's not true.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Is it is it the dumbest stanza ever written? It's up there. Yes. It's up there.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

I think it is.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

And the girl, meanwhile, is just sitting on the sideline smoking a cigar going, I mean, do you two want to have sex?

SPEAKER_00 23:30

I mean, I what's also she's like, I don't even know them. And like she, I said to him, I'm your forever lover. Like, who said that? No one ever. Never happened. Not a thing that people say. I've never said that to you, babe. You're my forever lover.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Forever lover?

SPEAKER_00 23:49

And you maybe are. But I would still never say it.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

You call me you call me your forever person.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

I know. My person. Forever person. You're my person. Yeah. But my forever lover. Like, what it just says, like, we're forever gonna be just having sex. We're forever. Like, because lover doesn't lover. He's a virgin. Yeah, yeah. He doesn't know what it means. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

He doesn't know what it means.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

So all of this could rightly lead someone to say, why the fuck would this be released as a single, let alone the first single? This has like fifth single, if that if that written all over it. And I got this from a critic who said, um, in the early 80s, the idea of a black star such as Jackson becoming a mainstream sensation was unbelievably still controversial. MTV, which had launched on August 1st, 1981, was focused on rock and roll, shorthand of the time for white artists only. MTV wasn't alone in blanking Jackson. Despite the acclaim showered on Off the Wall, radio stations across the U.S. declined to playlist Jackson because he was black. Jackson and Quincy Jones' calculation was they wouldn't dare snub a beetle.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

They're so smart.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

The consensus among Jackson fans is that the girl is mine is the song off thriller that has aged the worst. McCartney devotees certainly think so. Amid the dark disco of the title track and the stadium funk of Beat It and Billy Jean, it stands out as a big slab of stinky cheese. McCartney, nose a stranger to Sonic Cheddar, was never taken with it. He actually admitted as much the time. One point of concern was Jackson's turn of phrase, did the King of Pop really have to sing The Doggong Girl is Mine? But to the larger point, it is unbelievable, as a person writes, that they would have to game the release of this album. That a black artist in the early 80s still would have to figure out how to get through to the mainstream.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

But also, okay, so they gamed it, thank God. But but the fact that they had to game it and then this song or this album became the best-selling album of all time. It's like, how dare you think you know better? How dare you sideline an artist who's it's like so crazy that all this stuff was at in 1982 still happening? But also, why didn't they do say say say? You know?

SPEAKER_03 26:27

Yeah, I mean say say say ends up on on Paul's next album.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

I know it if say say say had just been like the thriller song, it's I mean it's it's so much more it's such a like a better beat, it's more yeah. Um, I don't know. I I just like uh whatever, but it's a hit anyway, right? Nonetheless, did it become a hit, this song?

SPEAKER_03 26:52

It did become a hit. So this song goes to number two on the charts. It only it man eater kept it from going number one. No way!

SPEAKER_00 27:01

That's that's sim, babe. That that we did that song last exactly last whatever last episode.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

Yeah, it's 1983. It goes to the charts and number two. And uh I we're gonna go to a break and we'll come back and talk about the Michael movie. But before we do that, um, where do you think The Girl Is Mine went for the year? Peaked at number two for 1983. Where does it end up? This horrendous song.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

I'm gonna say 57.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Okay, 57.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

What are you you already know?

SPEAKER_03 27:33

I I looked. Uh, here we go. Billboard End of Year. Now, first of all, MJ comes in with Beat It at number five. Yep. And uh Billy Jean at number two.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

But if we go down here to number 49.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Oh shoot, I was gonna say 47.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

The girl is mine.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

After dirty laundry by Don Henry.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

And right before Too Shy by Kaja Goo Goo. What is that?

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Too shy shy. Oh yeah. Too shadows. And Adam Ant. Do you get it? Yeah, absolutely. Goody goody too shift. That was that uh look at these songs. These are such good songs by the house in the middle of our street.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Overkill by Menower. I love that song.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

So do I.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

It's such a great song. Yeah. So anyway, amidst these great songs, The Girl is mine. Number 49 for the year.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

So people, you know, stations were playing it. And people were listening to it.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Okay, so it is catchy. They both have amazing voices. I like you you don't turn the station when this song comes on. You know what I mean? There's certain songs I like, ugh, I can't listen to this song.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

I mean, you don't change the station if this comes on. Do you? Oh, I don't know. I mean, I if I'm trying to put I'm trying to put myself back then. I mean, today, uh, if it came on, I just it's more of an oddity.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

It's because you don't really think of like when it when this song came out, I remember when this song came out, you don't like think about the lyrics really. You're kind of just singing along, mine, mine. It's almost like those seagulls in Nemo. Mine, mine, mine, you know, you're just sort of like realizing that this is something that's you're singing, it's mine.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

That might just be the best comparison ever for this song. Just mindless.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

It is, it's a little mindless. Like, I think you just sing along, kind of like when you're in your car. It's a car song, you know?

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

All right. Uh let's take a break and let's talk about the Michael movie after the break because we just have to do this fucking movie. Okay. So the Michael movie is a movie called Michael, first of all. It's a recent movie. Yeah, recent. It came out this year.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

Yeah. Um, and I, you know, I have to admit, I maybe I just sort of the hype around the movie seeped into my subconscious because I went into this thinking it was gonna be like a genuinely good movie. I know. All the like maybe not uh amazing, but like good. And I so I was a little taken aback by how you know bad it was to name a to name a song from you know the name an album and song by MJ.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

It was just bad.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

You know it.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Yeah, you know it. Anyone who watches it knows it.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

You know it. Um I'm just singing bad lyrics.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

You know. Um, but okay, so I was talking to like, you know, there's some Gen Z um kids uh at my work, and they all loved this movie. And so I just was kind of thinking Did they say why they liked it? Um I think they thought it was so cool to know about Michael Jackson, but they don't like the movie does not go into like really what went down. Like it sort of paints it with this brush that's right, so ambiguous.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

I wouldn't even say it does that. It it it well let me let me let me just read this. Let's get to that because that's an interesting point. So this is from um a a critic at Rogerebert.com, which is an interesting website, Rogerebert.com. Ebert's been dead for like 20 years, but there's a website called Rogerebert.com. The critic writes make no mistake about it, Michael isn't a movie, it's a film playlist in search of a story. Unlike its subject, Michael isn't artistically unique, uh, immediately entertaining, or boundary pushing. It's beyond safe and so unchallenging. You're better off either queuing up the Jacksons miniseries from the 90s. It's so good. It was an ABC like four-night miniseries, it was so awesome, or marathoning Michael's incredible music videos than watching shoddy recreations of them.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

And and that, but that but that's what I was thinking when you said that why would a Gen Z like this? It's like Are they liking like the musical element? In which case, Jesus, just go watch him on YouTube. Yeah, don't watch this bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

But see, like, um, they weren't a part of the MTV generation. You know what I mean? Like, they don't, it's like it's a it is so easy to watch a video, but also no one's really doing it.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

You know what I mean? Like, I think the videos in that era, they were ubiquitous. They were on like thriller, once it was released. We number one, we waited for the release. It was such a thing. It was touted, it was the release.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

So do you think the younger generations just like a younger generation like in their 20s wouldn't it wouldn't occur to them that they're just like fucking awesome Michael Jackson videos? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Absolutely. I bet we could ask Ruby, she's never seen Thriller. I bet she's never seen Billy Jean. I bet she's I bet none of them have seen any of these videos, or you don't know his lore, you don't feel his the the experience of who Michael Jackson was in the time.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

Well, this movie sure as hell didn't didn't impart that.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

They did not impart that. He was amazing. Like, I feel like all the off-the-wall songs were so insane. Like that album is so good. So it sort of sets up you want to like thriller. So we were kind of, I feel like when they were talking about MTV, like I didn't know that it was hard for for Mt to uh Quincy and them to even get um Thriller on MTV, like to me.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Which which they rather clumsily address in the movie. Yeah there is a scene that's like so stupid, but they do address this point that basically MTV didn't want to play him.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah. Yes, which is kind of crazy, but I do think that there's something to like Michael Jackson and Quincy, or whoever I feel like Michael was such a visionary artist, like truly amazing artist, had the vision of the movie did try to paint this picture by having him watching horror movies like with Vincent Price. But maybe you know that is his lore at the time. Sure. We knew that he loved Vincent Price and all those horror movies that Vincent Price was in. Right. Um, and then because his voice truly is at the beginning of thriller. Right, exactly. So um yeah, he had the vision of making his video into a movie, and also then after that, so many artists did that.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Yeah. The Michael movie, I mean, there's so many things that are offensive about it. The acting's atrocious, atrocious. The writing is unbelievably good.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

But the guy who plays Michael is such a good dancer.

SPEAKER_03 35:26

He's a good dancer. So the so the Michael's played by Jermaine Jackson's son, Jafar. He's an absolutely horrible actor, but he looks like Michael. He can dance like Michael. The singing, I guess they did a combination where like he sings and they melded it with some Michael stuff so to create like a like a voice that sounded like Michael. Um it's it's it's it's really a bad movie. They uh so apparently this is something that we discovered as we were watching it, because I was actually like reading about it as we're watching it, because I just was so fascinated by this train wreck. Originally, so okay, so the topic the Michael Jackson estate basically made this movie, and that explains a lot of it. Because, for example, Janet Jackson isn't even in the movie, but LaToya is she's not she's not even mentioned, the whole other rest of the family is the family is, and and and probably because someone owns the right to Janet's story, is and as you said, who the fuck wants to make that movie? But like, anyway. Originally the movie was written to address the sexual abuse claims, and the movie was gonna end with him basically signing an agreement that basically says, Hey, I uh I I acknowledge there's the accusations, but I don't admit fault, whatever. They actually filmed it, they filmed this ending and then realized that that per their agreement with the victims, they couldn't do that. So they had to scrap the entire final third of the movie. Like they they the estate fucking didn't realize this, made that, they just scrap it, and then how many millions was spent on that?

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Because you know it's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03 37:15

And the final so the final bit of the movie is essentially just like a recreation of one of his concerts, and the AI crowd is disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

The shots are so bad, it's like it's but also you even as you're watching it, you're like, why are we watching so much of this? Like you have the sense because there's two um uh concert songs that you're hearing. Yeah, like there's one, and then like some shit happens, and then there's another one, and both of them are so prolonged, you could tell, like this was meant to be cut up. Yeah, exactly. And they couldn't because they had nothing else to do. Then they needed to like use the entire scene, like it's just it's terrible.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

It's terrible. And and and I gotta read this from a critic, uh, our man Tom, who hopefully will be on the show, who happened to also review this movie. He writes A lot of stuff in Michael feels just as sinister as that planned ending. Throughout, we get scenes of Jackson visiting sick kids in the hospital. Jackson really did that, but the film makes him look saintly, as if only a sicko could read something dark into his fixation on kids. We see him repeatedly reading Peter Pan, and the Peter in the book looks just like 90s Michael.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Well, because it said that he wanted that nose, the nose of the cartoon, and then he gets it. Yeah, it's yeah that's his little nose he has.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Also, sometimes it's terrible. The producers of this movie, for instance, really thought they could turn Bubbles the chimp. That was Michael's part into baby Yoda.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

You guys. It's so the chimp part of the movie, but the chimp is a lot. But also, he's all he's kind of a chubby chimp that looks maybe like a little person or something. Like it's the worst like AI thing, and you can tell it's AI from the second because it really almost looks at the camera like it's winking.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

There is a lot of CGI bubbles in Michael. He's the designated comic relief character.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Is he funny though?

SPEAKER_03 39:20

No. When Michael first arrives at the family home with CGI baby bubbles, the joke is the family's reaction. Which is not they think he's crazy. But when I saw that scene, I thought the movie was crazy for putting it in. It only gets crazier. Bubbles goes into Michael's bedroom, sees the cover of Off the Wall, and then gets an odd look on his face while pointing at the real Michael. I think he says, ooh, but it really looks like he's trying to say, you like Caesar learning to talk at the end of Rise of the Planet of the Apes. It is Jesus Christ. It's so it's so bad.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

It's it he's he's describing it very well.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

I mean, it's like it's perfectly put.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

And also Michael's bedroom is like the recreation of his bedroom looks like a child's bedroom. Like, I mean, okay, I guess it is the 70s, or no, this is the 80s, right? Yeah, or would it have been in the 70s? But the thing is he he did live at home until he's like 40.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

He w he built Neverland, I think, in the late 80s.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Okay, so he was 30. Yeah. When he moved out. And like any time, like he had so many um confrontations with Joe, his father, in that in the movie. Listen, we don't really know what happened. And even so that my so if this the Michael Jackson estate put this out, they really painted Mike uh Michael's father with a horrible brush. Yeah. I mean, he was said to have been a horrible person, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:49

But it is interesting that they do that. It's played by Coleman Domingo, who's a great actor, and this is like the shit role for him because he's just like such a character, such a character.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

But he they really made him look like the father. He did look like that. Like the eyebrows were over the top.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

Yeah, and he had like those weird gross eyes, yeah, contacts, contacts, and then gave him those like almost green contacts or something.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

But um, but when you look at pictures of Michael Jackson's father, he has such an evil look. Yeah, he just looks like nefarious.

SPEAKER_03 41:21

He The one thing though, the one part in the movie where I was sort of like they could have really gone somewhere with this was when Michael sends over the paperwork saying that he is breaking away from his father's control. Right? I'm going solo, you do not control me anymore. And Joe Jackson rages at basically saying, I created this fame. And I think there like there's probably a lot to unpack there in terms of like here's this domineering father who we see at the beginning of the movie, like demanding the kids practice and practice and practice. And to a certain extent, you kind of have to admit he's probably right. Like he did create the Jackson 5. It made me think of that, then launches Michael's fame. Like he Joe Jackson's probably his biggest fault is he came to see himself as big as the artist. But you I don't I think there's a lot to be said for how he created Michael Jackson.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Well, it's like Tiger Woods' father, sure. Um Serena Williams the Williams sisters, right? In the Joe Jackson realm. He was he was doing this with all his kids, right? So, you know, from the firstborn down, and then Michael's like the second to the last, right? Janet's the youngest. So then by this time, does he has he honed his craft so much in like in and then does this kid get the like did he have any musical chops? We don't know that he or the the mother, because then Michael at singing um what's that song, that love song he does as a child.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Yeah, in the movie they do it, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:05

I don't remember, I think they did, but I heard the song the other day, and I was just so struck by the amount of like angst he puts in that song as a kid, feeling in that song is so incredible, and like his voice as well. So he was like God-given talent. Like what a luck. But the luck of the draw, if you keep having kids, maybe one of them's gonna Well, the whole family was talented. Yes, yes, of course. But like honed talent versus natural talent. Yeah, I don't know what you know, what's the distinction there. Um because like Jermaine had an album or whatever, Tito. Like you know, but but like at the end of the day, Michael's talent is like his dancing talent. Well, he like he was pushed since Childhood, but he kind of loved the dancing. Like he truly loved that. But then he was also his childhood was completely taken away. Where I wonder if like Jermaine and Tito also had a childhood because the father just had to work more. There was one kid. Like, I don't know what obviously the circumstances were. The psychology of that family must- I mean, it's probably so many books, but Jehovah's Witnesses, like this, but yet he's like a you know abusive father. And I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

No, it's crazy. But also, because we were talking about exotic animals recently. People who own exotic animals. Yeah. And and and and the MJ, the thriller album, if you had their L, if you had the vinyl, if you open it up all the way, he's actually laying with a baby tiger.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Yeah. And it's just like, but I guess that feeds into what Neverland became like exotic animals that never land.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

It started with a llama, according to the movie. Like the llama was his first animal that he would go out and talk to. Yeah, I'm gonna do this out.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

There's a fucking CGI giraffe walking around just walking around the set all the time.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Like so strange. It's it's like limbering, like it walks so slowly.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

Like a like a video game giraffe. It's really bad. Oh gosh. Okay. Well, let's end on this final note though. Um a second, where is it here? I want to I just want to say this about the two of them. Despite the chemistry in the studio and proven success on the charts, the pop star's relationship began to deteriorate in 1985 after Jackson acquired the ATV Music Publishing catalog, which included rights to many of the Beatles songs written by McCartney and John Lennon. Among the many bitters that Jackson beat was McCartney himself, who ironically had counseled Jackson on the value of owning owning publishing rights during their writing and recording sessions.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

Yeah, I've heard this story before. He he told, he said to MJ, like, you really want to get rich, buy song rights. And then the Beatles songs came up in 85. But how did it be? And MJ was just like, cool.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

How were they out of McCartney's control?

SPEAKER_03 46:11

Like I don't exactly I I don't know. I'm not but I mean because songs have like a certain like when you publishing rights have a certain like shelf life, right? And and and then and then they go into the um what do they call that? What's that called? When they expire, they join the public oh shit, what is that phrase called? Because then if they enter public domain, anybody can record it without permission.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Well, that's the same with prints and in fabric and clothing. Yeah, after 40 years, you can use a print.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

So then I guess maybe in music it's not I don't for whatever reason, like it came up and Michael bought a lot of them. It was like, well, Paul, you told me it was a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Wow, gosh. Sorry, Paul.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know what their relationship was later on after that, but probably not a great Michael.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Just didn't give a shit. Like after a point, you know, according to the movie. Like when he once he hired that lawyer guy.

SPEAKER_03 47:16

Oh my god, the lawyer. The lawyer, John Branca, who's like he's one of the he's one of the producers of the movie, and they portray him so incredibly in the film.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

He's kind of handsome.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

Who plays him?

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Um, that guy who was in that drummer movie. He played that drummer who was kind of abused as a kid drummer.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

I remember, but it was like Miles Teller. Yeah, Teller.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Teller.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

Teller, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Is that his name? Miles.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

Something Teller. Anyway, that guy. Yeah. He plays John Branca, who is obviously in on making this movie because he's portrayed so awesomely in the film.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

He's like such a badass around the table of corporate assholes. He's the one guy who like gets Michael to listen. But maybe that's the truth of the matter. Like he was able to talk to Mike, kiss ass.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

In in that sort of sycophantic world, like this is a like a Trump move, right? It's like JD Vance's version, you know, like he's the JD Vance to Trump, as like Branca is to MJ, right? Like he's telling him like what he wants to hear. He knows what he wants to hear. The other guys like still aren't sycophantic enough to realize the things they need to say to Michael Jackson to make him want them to be his lawyer. He has to have his ass kissed.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Like like Trump.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

You have to kiss his ass. It's a prerequisite for the job. If you're not up for a brown nose, don't even apply.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

That's probably how so many stars are. You just gotta be willing to go there if you actually want to work with them. Get on the inside.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Put your nose in my ass.

SPEAKER_03 48:57

Just put it there. Wait, what's a Michael Jackson? Didn't think we get Michael Jackson on this podcast. Didn't think we'd go there.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Why?

SPEAKER_03 49:03

Well, I don't know. You know, he's just like such a mega star. He's a mega star, but then when you start actually thinking about individual songs, you're like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Well we had to go to this side. You gotta go all right. And like this is, you know, Virgin Michael territory.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

Virgin Michael. Did he ever lose his virginity? I think other other than with a child?

SPEAKER_00 49:24

No.

SPEAKER_03 49:25

Right. Probably just a child. I mean, we were talking about all the allegations stuff. But wait, did you watch the Finding Neverland or the Neverland documentary?

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Uh I didn't finish it.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

It's hard to watch. Yeah. It's really hard to watch. That was, I mean, I I never I never didn't believe the allegations, but when that came out, whatever that was like 2018, it's like, okay, this shuts the door on any fucking person who's like, no, but I think he's innocent. No, just stop. Just just stop.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

But the thing is, the amount of people who think he's innocent in that movie, in that documentary. Also, so even before that, before that, though those are the second time uh allegations were brought up.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

You know, that oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

So I remember reading this like 40 pages, you know how Vanity Fair like does not edit their authors.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

What was it, you know, was it the was it like mid-90s?

SPEAKER_00 50:21

I feel like huge when this kid described a mark on his penis. Yeah, exactly. And that this was in the Vanity Fair article, and it was like a someone in like where is that Ventura? Like up in that Ontario is wait, what uh there's an O place up there.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

Oh High or something.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

No.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

Wait, you mean where Up by Ventura?

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Umard. I feel like the family was from Oxnard.

SPEAKER_03 50:52

And and um this kid Wait, Neverland Ranch was in Simi Valley, or where was it?

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Yeah, uh Simi Valley, uh Hidden Hills, uh like the Hidden Hills is this enclave that is like we did a shoot there. It's insane. I didn't even know it existed before we did a shoot there. It's like freaking pristine horse land, like little house on the prairie. It's gorgeous. And and but the um, yeah, I feel like um yeah, the original allegations. It was so apparent. This, the, the amount of this investigative journalist really like read all the court documents, interviewed the families. Um and like it was so like I was like, wow. Because in the media at large, it you know, you had to read this whole thing, and it was a lot to read, you know. And I think people weren't like, and people are like, this is not true, no way. And people who didn't read that article, you know.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

There was so I mean, I remember there's being so many like like allegations, allegations that were so specific and troubling, yeah. Like the alarm on the door, and like like like who was that guy? Who's that who was the guy that worked for um for NBC uh with Katie Couright that was just like Matt.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Oh uh um L not who not that yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_03 52:26

Williams. No, I'm thinking of um Matt uh Matt Lowry or Matt Lauer or Lauer. Matt Lauer. Yeah, like same thing. Like he like like the specificity of the details that came out, it's like obviously this is true. Like no one's making up things that are so specific.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

The shape of the the mole on his penis. Yeah, right, exactly. Like something like that. That's what the Vanity Fair article talked about. And so this kid knew that, like, you know, and that was early. Was there was there a famous actor, kid actor involved in that? Yeah, Macaulay Colkin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who was and Webster? Do you remember this kid Webster? Webster, yeah, Webster. Yeah, he was also always at Neverland Ranch, and Michael would carry him around like a baby.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Yeah, yeah. There's some crazy images like online of Michael carrying around that kid Webster. Like that I remember thinking he that kid's now like 11, and he because he is so little, Michael would carry him around. Ugh I it was like I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Yeah, it it it's it's just it's it's just grooming, like grooming, grooming, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

It really had that that vibe. Grooming.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

Yeah, no, I mean it's you'd have to be we didn't know that term then, I guess. It's like I guess, I mean, I guess the mentality is similar to I don't know, what is the mentality to be to think that these allegations have no veracity or validity?

SPEAKER_00 53:58

I mean you Because it's like it's blind faith. It's almost like a conspiracy theorist just believes this conspiracy because um uh even in that Neverland documentary, yeah, do you remember how the streets were lined with, We believe you, we love you, Michael? So every day when Michael would go into court, he actually felt like he climbed out and got on top of his car because he actually believed, oh, people believe in me.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

So it didn't even matter that he did all this stuff because people believed he was innocent because they loved him so much. So they just they chose to believe. It's like he was their own little messiah or something.

SPEAKER_03 54:37

Yeah, messiah is a good word for it because that whole, you know, they they there's that like Beatlemania-esque reaction to his concerts, you know, people passing out and sobbing at seeing him on stage. Well you see that you can understand why they'd be like, well, obviously he didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

Yeah, they're not gonna ever believe it. It's it's like MAGA, it there's so many like parallels, right? I think it's just there's maybe something in the human, like in in our makeup that makes us like once you believe in something, once something is your deity, yeah, you there's that's your faith. Now your faith is put into this thing, so this is your vessel of faith. So you can't, nothing can shake it because that's what faith is. Right. You know, belief in a thing.

SPEAKER_03 55:27

And and and and pop stars as deities is a real thing. But but to take it, but to take it to the level of because I think even a lot of like Trump and supporters, they know he's done bad shit. They they know and they're willing to say, I don't care. I think in MJ's case, it's like, no, I don't think he did this. Yeah, I don't think he did any of this. And that's that's kind of a difference that I think it's just like bordering on a some kind of a some kind of a uh a weird psychosis.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Psychos it's yeah, it's uh it's it's belief, it's belief to your own detriment. Well, the belief to your own detriment is Trump, actually. Because well, how does it harm you to believe in Michael Jackson? You know, nothing's gonna happen to you. Whereas believing in Trump, you're gonna get your life. Yeah. That the terrorists are gonna affect the affordability that's not a thing.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

Housing prices aren't a thing.

SPEAKER_03 56:25

Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

You're living with the reality of life under Trump where the MJ is just a like, okay, this is a person that you choose to believe he's not a pedophile.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

But you're still sinking your ego, your your own sense of self to a certain extent into that person, right? I mean, I mean, what does it mean to be to be that to be to believe so much in the innocence of a pedophile that you're lining the streets with signs? Right? I mean, like you've you have subsumed yourself to some degree to this person.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Well, but yes, because like in I don't know if you remember this, because I know you saw it a long time ago, but in the Neverland documentary, do you remember that they would allow certain civilians or just citizens into the courthouse by lottery every day?

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

So there were people, and they interviewed them in this documentary, who quit their jobs and were waiting outside every day to go into the courthouse to see what was happening. And so these are people, this one woman, she's like, I quit my job, I'm here, and she got called in. You're in the courthouse, you actually see because this, I feel like some of this, when was this is the second allegations, right? So this is after the Vanity Fair and everything, but in these courtrooms, because that first Vanity Fair one was in courtrooms too. There's all those court documents that that they had um referenced. But um in this, she's in the room hearing the truth and still believing, yeah, you know, so I everyone else who never got in, and it's like hearsay, you see Michael accused of this shit that he's denying, but it's like everyone is lying, and like you're gonna believe him versus this mountain of evidence. Like the like so in the Bible there's a verse like faith is the against like the evidence of all see things seen, you still believe. Like that's a verse in the Bible. I I'm not saying it right, but it's something about like everything you see can tell you otherwise, and you still choose to believe. And that is the thing, like these people who have faith in a thing, it's like my mom, you know, how she believes in whatever new order of society there is that we're living.

SPEAKER_03 59:00

Sure. So you can look at it, you can look at anything about MJ. Michael Jackson, here's the child saying what he saw, here's the parent talking about how what they witnessed. Doesn't matter.