Drop & Roll

Cheryl Womack returns to share one of the most harrowing days of her life—her self-surrender to a women’s federal prison camp. 

In this gripping episode, she walks Katrina through the raw emotions of leaving her family behind, the administrative chaos at check-in, and the unexpected moments of kindness and confusion during intake. From the teary goodbye in the car to the dreaded "walk of shame" in a white jumpsuit, Cheryl unpacks the reality versus the myths of that first day behind the gate. 

She offers practical advice on what to bring, what to send ahead, how to handle your medications, and what really happens during medical evaluations and counselor screenings. A must-listen for anyone preparing for prison—or anyone curious about what that moment of transition is truly like.

Transcript

Katrina McLarin (00:36)

Welcome to the podcast. Today's episode is titled Drop and Roll and is based on the book, How to Go to Camp Surviving in a Women's Federal Prison by V. Womack available now on Amazon. So this episode walks you through what can occur when you first arrive at camp and how you're processed and what you'll need. Cheryl, why don't you tell us a little bit about how you arrived at camp?

Cheryl Womack (00:58)

Well, that truly is one of the more horrible days of my life. We got up early to have brunch, which I was unable to eat with my sister and her husband because they were in St. Louis and the camp was about an hour from St. Louis.

So we went to go early and even though I planned to be there at noon, I think I got there closer to 11, 15, just because I didn't, you what else were we going to do? There's nothing else mentally you want to do. You're just mentally trying to get ready to go in.

And as the car started pulling up, I just looked at my husband and said, just slow down and I'm going to drop out and roll because I don't want you to go in. I can't go in. can't say goodbye to you another time. I'm crying. He's crying. It's very, it's just very sad. You don't know when you're going to see him again. I'm counting on seeing him that weekend, but nothing, you know, we don't know what's going to happen now. Everything is the unknown. So,

I drop out

I go in and he drives on and I go inside and, know,

I'm teary-eyed and this big old guy is just like, what are you crying about? And I'm like, went, really? You want to know what I'm crying about? Because I've come to prison. so he waits a few minutes and a counselor who's a little woman comes in and asks me what my name was. And another woman who was another prisoner came in who helps check people in as part of her

she gives me a big old hug and says, oh, honey, it's OK. It's not going to be so bad. I'm like, OK.

So she gives me paperwork to fill out and I sit down and I fill out my paperwork. Another girl comes in after me and she starts filling out her paperwork. Then while I'm filling out my paperwork, I start reading this thing and it says 72 weeks. And I went, I'm not here 72 weeks. And it's got my name, all my details, they went all in a hubbub and went looking in the back and carrying on.

only to find out that they put the girl who was coming in after me, time on mine, because mine was 18 months.

And you really have to look at the paperwork and verify the information. Now, when I came in, I came with a small manila envelope. And in that envelope, I brought in my list of 100 people, potential people, or however many there were on that list, complete addresses and everything. I brought in medical information. I brought in the proof.

you know, that I paid my restitution and court costs. And I brought in a copy of your PSA. It's the report that they do about your history and the crime and everything all built up to it. That is what everybody reads to talk about what's gonna be, whether you're going into rehab or whether you're getting into what kind of restitution can you get into RDAP. All the details in that PSA is referred to, it's where it says,

I didn't have to pee in a cup the whole time I was there. And my thing said I didn't have to do that.

Katrina McLarin (03:49)

So that was like the summary sheet that the camp needs of you and how they're going to handle you through this process.

Cheryl Womack (03:57)

It has everything in there. I mean, it has your life history in there. And it's pretty lengthy, but you should have that with share that with anybody. is considered very quiet, but you should have that with you.

Katrina McLarin (04:06)

really important that you show up to camp obviously on time and don't be late.

Cheryl Womack (04:10)

I don't know if it's always organized, but I wasn't going to be late for this.

Katrina McLarin (04:12)

Well, I mean, if you're late and you don't show up, they can issue a warrant for your arrest.

Cheryl Womack (04:16)

for most people, it's traumatizing enough. I don't know what else you think you're going to do. You just, you just want to go and make it start.

Katrina McLarin (04:23)

were carrying your file as well, but would you also recommend that people post in a copy of that several days before you get in there? Or is it you bring in enough?

Cheryl Womack (04:32)

I sent in all the names and addresses in a postal package along with a couple books that I wanted to have read along with another copy of my PSA Any vital information that I needed to have I might I think my living will was in there Power of attorney a copy of that was in there. I had those things inside Any legal documents that you have I had all those and I sent them in in advance along with some books before I ever went in

before you go in a couple of days, you can call the FCI and they'll put you over to the camp which will verify that they have not carrying it with you. Let's say you're traveling and you don't wanna bring it again. You wanna know that information is there.

Katrina McLarin (05:07)

And also you want a budget too on how much you've got to spend per month while you're in there. And that's important I think, right? To work out before you get there.

Cheryl Womack (05:15)

Well,

the other thing you can do is you can get on Western Union or whatever service you're using. and you can literally post money and then call Western Union and confirm the money is on your books for when you start. Now that doesn't mean you have access to that right away because you've got to get a PIN number once you get inside, which you don't get that right away. That could take up to 48 hours to get, but you will eventually get it and that will access you to your cash to be able to do other things.

Katrina McLarin (05:41)

Okay, so you're now in, I'm assuming you're in receiving and delivery, you're going through your paperwork. They're going on talking about your sentence. You've got that clarified, thank goodness, and you're doing the right time.

Cheryl Womack (05:51)

They have to

go redo the paperwork and bring it back for me to look at again and then sign and approve. And then the woman comes and brings me around to the back and looks at me for what size I am and gives me a white jumpsuit. And that's where you're spending all your time worrying about, oh my God, is this where I'm getting strip searched and all the things you see in TV and going, have to bend over? What's going to happen here? It didn't happen. She was very nice and she literally turned her back on me as I tried on a jumpsuit.

Katrina McLarin (06:10)

Did they do that? Did they do that to you?

Cheryl Womack (06:17)

and gave me a sports bra and sort of guesstimated to what size I needed and some granny panties. And then they give you a pair of blue canvas tennis shoes. literally when you come in, you can come in with a basic wedding band that doesn't have value of more than $100. Any diamonds, anything else, don't bring it. They say you can bring in a cross, a simple cross around your neck, but I saw guards tell them you can't have that and get rid of it. And guards who let you keep it. You're supposed to have a basic hoop earrings.

Same thing. It depends upon the mood of the guard that's on duty for what you're going to get to keep or not. I think the other thing is that you need to know is that for me, coming in and taking off the clothes that I was wearing and shipping them back to my family was just another way to traumatize them that I'm not there. So I came in deliberately with clothes that I knew I would donate and never see again, could care less if I saw them. So I wore literally a dress, pair of flip-flops, some underwear.

and no other jewelry and I just took it all off and put the white jumpsuit

Katrina McLarin (07:11)

do they give you,

can't keep the bra you're wearing and the underwear you're wearing, you have to change everything.

Cheryl Womack (07:17)

Absolutely not you you wear their granny panties and their sports bras and you do not keep a thing you brought it all either gets donated or sent back to your family

Katrina McLarin (07:26)

fitted out in your jumpsuit? Do you get your lanyard at this point and your photo ID done or?

Cheryl Womack (07:31)

really before you even go get your clothes and stuff, they're having you stop in the middle of all this while you're filling out your paperwork and sniveling and crying and stop and have you take pictures. So none of those pictures are good because if you think your driver's license pictures are bad, my God, doesn't even compare to the snively that you're going to wear the entire time because remember, you must wear your lanyard at all times 24 seven. So you have this photo ID.

your pack and pin number, you may as well not have your name on there anymore, you're around your neck and you get that immediately. So you have your lanyard so they'll all know who you are,

after that, they tell you to wait a few minutes and sit you on a bench in the entryway and tell you you're gonna meet with a counselor.

Katrina McLarin (08:08)

So how does that go with the counselor? What does the counselor talk you through? it like what to expect or what do they go through with you?

Cheryl Womack (08:15)

Oh no. Well, here's another one. You're going in here, you're crying and you're trying.

I am a relatively tough person, but you're crying. You're sad. You've left your family and you haven't done this and it's a long period of time. And he goes, well, are you all right? You know, and then he goes, what are you here for? You know, and I'm just like, I'm sure you've read it. And I, and I just said, what do I think I'm here for or what am I here for?

Katrina McLarin (08:24)

Cool.

Cheryl Womack (08:37)

you know, and, you know, so they're just trying, cause they're looking a lot of times for how contrived is the person and are they accepting responsibility? And I was not.

Katrina McLarin (08:45)

So you're a little

bit fiery, you're coming in a little bit hot maybe because you still don't, you don't think you should be there.

Cheryl Womack (08:48)

I don't think I should

be there and I'm trying to mentally wrap my head around, you know, and I think several girls come in a little bit hot even if they think they should be there. But the reason you're meeting the counselor is he's trying to determine if you are safe. Are you going to be safe to be put in the prison? Can you be left alone? If you're not safe, he starts asking you questions about your medical and how have you felt the last two weeks and has anybody told you, you know, that you're depressed, you seem depressed?

Has anybody told you you're overly emotional? Have you considered killing yourself in the last 30 days? Have you considered killing yourself in the last 40? It goes through all of these things. Because if you answer in a way that he feels you'll do harm to yourself, they have a suicide watch room that they put you in and then people are trained to go just sit around and watch you sit there in the suicide watch room, which is one of the girls who came in after me, her name is Jackie, a really big woman came in and she was just fall on the floor and carry on.

just was a real drama queen because she was a drama queen when she was being mean and she was a drama queen when she was being dramatic. And so she carried on and was so spasmodic, she went into the suicide watch room and she was in there for, I want to say, well, she was in there till 10 o'clock count that night. And it took forever for her to get us in and we were almost late for our 10 o'clock count that night to get her brought in because she was moseying in to come in. And they kept her put away from the night before till 10 o'clock count the next night because

They wanted to make sure she was going to be okay. unless you're seriously thinking about doing harm to yourself, answer the questions as well as you can. Good time not to be a smart aleck. You're really a good time just to be honest and you know, it's okay to feel bad. I I think how can you not feel bad? You're coming to prison. It's okay to be sad, but I think you have to make abundantly clear. You're not going to harm. You don't feel like harming yourself or anyone else.

Katrina McLarin (10:30)

Yeah, so don't

cry wolf about being suicidal because actually you're going to be put into a closed room and it's not going to be fun. I think people may perceive that it would be better.

Cheryl Womack (10:38)

And

everybody out in the camp knows you got put in one and that you must have made some scenes. So they already are now watching to see what kind of person you are. You made yourself stand out more than you wanted to.

Katrina McLarin (10:50)

So the gossip has begun from that point. It's begun.

Cheryl Womack (10:52)

my God, what's

she doing and how long will she be there? Yeah.

Katrina McLarin (10:56)

you've gone through, you've sat with the counselor. Do you get a medical exam at this point? What happens there?

Cheryl Womack (11:01)

Well, then the counselor has the receiving clerk, the gal who works in there, come and get you. And she walks you down to medical, which is not very far down in the same building, but you go outside and you go down to medical. And I, again, I got there early so I could get through it, but I had to sit there a long time because another one of the gals who was in prison at that time had had a heart problem. And I think she's had other heart problems before. And if I remember the story correctly, I mean, she, you can be anybody you want in prison. And this girl had

tall tales and knew important people and you know, she must have known the president of the United States or what have you according to some of the tall tales that she told, but she did have heart problems. She did have medical problems. They did mess with her medicine that she'd been very carefully on and so she passed out. And so while they were dealing with her, everything else goes on hold and they already have appointments and you're showing up to be worked in. And so I literally got rushed through finally.

about 3.30 to get through as fast as I can where they basically give you an eye test where you look on a chart and try to read the chart. They weigh you with your canvas shoes on so you don't get to take shoes

They give you a shot And they take your blood pressure, which for most people I'm sure is a little elevated.

and take your temperature and then they say, bring you in for a more thorough physical later on. But for now, we're just checking the signs and they probably would have had somebody do more of a visual test and dental test. It was the day of the dentist, but they go through what they go through, but they really rushed me through because it was so close to count time and then rushed me down to the bus stop. which is, that's a really interesting thing because you take this walk, it's called the walk of shame and you're coming out of medical and you're going across this huge

campus down to where the dorms are, where everybody's walking around and going back in for the count. And you always know it's a new person because they're in this bright white jumpsuit with canvas tennis shoes on, and that's all they've got coming down. Now, sometimes they're bringing in like 10 of them, but often they're bringing in one person at a time. And so it was my turn to take the walk down. And I think the thing you have to remember is that every girl standing there looking at you took the same walk. have to remind yourself.

Nobody got in here without doing the same walk. This is not an unusual thing to do. Just suck it up and go. So while I'm sitting in medical so the other part I forgot just before get this little mattress, you get two sets of sheets to change into, you get some towels and you get four rolls of toilet paper. Your first round of toilet paper you're going to get.

And so you carry all that with you wherever you go until you get down to your to where they're assigning you. And so everybody kept going, where are you going? Where you go? Well, I don't know what things are called. So I'm going a 72 or whatever it is like bingo. And they said, they said the a bus stop and I'm going to bus stop Okay, I get you're sure that's the troublemaker bus stop. went, what? And everybody goes, people ask you, where are you? Where are you staying? Where you staying with? So I've just barely gotten in there. They've done the count.

I'm in the room, I've set the stuff on the bed, no time to make it or anything. You come out for count in your bus stop, you have to come out in front and stand in front. If they want to, they can go through and ask you the numbers, but mostly they're just going through and counting. you know, so it's good. Everybody's telling you a bus stop, get out here. Here's what we do. And we line up and all the bus stops do it. And I don't know what they do down the alleys because I'm not in an alley. so you go and you line up and then you go back inside and everybody, they helped me make my bed and

teach me how to make it properly because you have to make it properly and many girls sleep on top of their properly made bed and then just get an extra sheet so that they don't have to make their bed all the time. I got in my bed and remade my bed because I thought, no, I want my blankets. So you get one wool blanket. You can't have a pillow, although later you can buy one illegally.

Katrina McLarin (14:43)

Look, I just have one question about

the medical, if I can backtrack just a fraction. Are you able to bring your existing medication in with you or what happens there? Are they just issuing you new medication? How's that handled?

Cheryl Womack (14:55)

you should be sure to bring a list of your medications. If you have your medicine, I brought mine with me. Now, everybody's not gonna get to keep their medicine with them. A lot of people have to go check in for pill call. And so it probably doesn't matter if you have to check in for a pill call, because they're not gonna let you keep your medicine, but they might keep your supply. But I got to keep mine. So by showing them what it was and being able to take it back with me.

by bringing my medicine in, bringing my list to confirm what it was and the dosages and everything, was very helpful to get things started, because I could just give them a list of that. And then they could verify it against that list and what they had. And then I could just take it back with me to my room to put it with my

Katrina McLarin (15:33)

Right, so you were able to do that, but not all prisoners are able to actually have control of their own medication and distribution.

Cheryl Womack (15:40)

I

mean, I work on thyroid and really easy things and so nothing that would be psychedelic, nothing that would be, you know, some of them are on for ADHD and they just won't, you have to go up there. You have to go up there if you're having high, well, I think for high blood pressure, you don't have to, you can take blood pressure medicine and stuff, most of it seemed like most of the people had to go to pill call, but there were definitely, there were definitely a number of people who could get them and get them refilled and keep them on their possession.

Katrina McLarin (16:06)

luckily for you, you wear green really well. So when do you get issued with your prison greens?

Cheryl Womack (16:12)

Well, that doesn't happen for a while. after they did the call, you go back inside and you sit on the bed and you have to shut up and be quiet until they say, call a good call. And everybody just sits there and nobody can talk because you're not supposed to make any noise until they clear for call. And then you go to dinner. Everybody goes to line up for dinner. So the big sister who met me to bring me out of medical over to the bus stop was going, ⁓ you're at a bus stop.

brought me came and got me to take me to lunch and she was like a little ray of sunshine I swear to God the little black cloud followed her everywhere because everything was like and that's bad over there and that's bad over there that's bad over there and like my god who did I get to teach me about what's going on here in this I'm like little

Katrina McLarin (16:48)

It wasn't a cheerleading

welcoming squad for that. That was, you if you weren't depressed enough, you certainly were after.

Cheryl Womack (16:53)

mean there was nothing good about this place So was just it was yeah so so she took me to dinner and then dinner at four and then she brought me right back you know to the bus stop telling me I just can't believe you're in this bus stop.

Katrina McLarin (17:04)

Do remember

what you actually had for dinner that first night? you remember? Nope. It wasn't that memorable then.

Cheryl Womack (17:07)

Nope, I know.

It all tasted like crap. And I thought I'll get some coffee and try this. my God, not I had to buy the coffee. I can't remember now what the brand was, but you buy it and you put it in heavy doses. They have hot water there reheated up and it's instant coffee and it has flavor at least. So you always made your coffee.

But no, they did not have good food and it was not, and then, you're again, you're still, I was hungry by now. Cause actually while I was checking in, somebody got a lunch brought to them. Cause I guess they got there before me in time that they brought or came in right after me and were working their way through the process. And I was like, why didn't I get one of those lunches? Cause I didn't get lunch. The first time I ate was four o'clock that night when we went out after camp, probably, you four or 15. So then, no, no. I was hungry. I was definitely hungry.

Katrina McLarin (17:50)

And you didn't have breakfast as you said earlier, because you're so nervous about going in.

Cheryl Womack (17:55)

And you knew there weren't going to be food sitting around the place. So again, she said she'd come and get me after dinner and take me, walk me around and show me the ropes.

Katrina McLarin (18:06)

because it ran so late, mean, you're not allowed to bring any toiletries or anything in. So did you have access to commissary area that first night or what happens there?

Cheryl Womack (18:14)

no,

no, no, no. So if they have a Big Sisters program at your site, which they don't always have, they might bring you some basic goods. And the big sister came and showed up and she brought me a toothbrush and she brought me a comb, no brushes. And I don't think I had any toothpaste. And so I had no change of clothes. And by the time I got back to the room and I got told I'm in the troublemaker room that everybody in there were younger kids and they'd all been put in there for doing something, you know, to get in trouble along the way, whether it was smoking or

not following the rules somewhere enough so that they got taken out of where they were assigned on the different alleys and got put into the bus stop together so they could all get in trouble together. Anyway, so they were all in there and they're young. And the other thing I forgot to tell you that's important is when you go into these bus stops or in these rooms, if OSHA came in there, they would shut that place down. It is metal sharp edges. There isn't a soft edge to be found. The walls are concrete cylinder blocks.

It is harsh and stark and dirty. And you go in there and I got assigned an upper bunk. All I could think was I am going to fall off this bed. I am going to lay in there and I'm going to move in my sleep as I do because I move all I move around all the time and I'm going to fall out of the bed and kill myself. And I just saw a thing on TV this morning where I saw somebody who got pardoned who did fall out of his bed and they thought he was dead. And he had a really bad concussion and really bad wound in his head, but he did recover.

But it took a while.

Katrina McLarin (19:39)

It's

important to remember though, at this point you're about 67, 68. Do they not automatically just allocate you to a lower bunk? mean, you've just said you're in a bus stop with young people.

Cheryl Womack (19:50)

They should, the rules say, the rules, if anybody wants to look at them and follow them, says if you're over 60, you automatically get a bunk pass, which means they have to put you in a lower bunk. If you're handicapped or have special needs, you know, or you might have multiple sclerosis or something like that, they have to give you the lower bunk pass. Interestingly enough, most of the kids in my room had figured out how to get lower bunk passes, but none of them needed them. They could scale those things like you never saw. I thought, gosh, if I could go up and down the stairs.

And you think any of wanted to move so that I could get it? I mean, they were furious when they had figured out who was going to move so I could have a lower bunk.

Katrina McLarin (20:26)

So when did you

realize that you could get a bunk pass? It was obviously after you'd already gone in there the first night, you didn't realize that you could get or ask for one because you were eligible.

Cheryl Womack (20:34)

I've been there two or three days, I think, before somebody said to me, you know, you should, because I was afraid, I'm afraid I'm going to fall out of this bed. And there's nothing, there's metal wardrobes with pointy corners that are broken and frayed with the little metal sharp part edges coming out. There is just, there's nowhere I'm looking that I think this is going to be safe to land on or fall into.

Katrina McLarin (20:53)

And what do you do?

You get up a ladder. How do you access this bed?

Cheryl Womack (20:56)

have this metal ladder that's attached to it with big bolts and it is rigid and and deep and you have to climb it and and then you have to climb over and get over on the it's not easy i mean you have to be it's worse than a kid's jungle jam and and if you think it's hard to get in it come out because you're like how am i turning my body to back out to get onto this it's really hard especially if you're not now like like i said there i watched some girls go up and down that thing like it wasn't even the ladder but

Katrina McLarin (21:07)

Sounds like a kid's jungle gym, actually. Like, it sounds terrifying.

Cheryl Womack (21:25)

you for those of us who haven't climbed ladders for a while, especially to sleep, it was horrifying. But so I, you know, I did it for a few days, but then I got a lower bunk. But I think important thing to remember is if you're six year older, you apps or you are handicapped and you can give them, show them by your documentation of paper you brought, ask for a lower bunk pass because you're eligible and you'll get it.

Katrina McLarin (21:47)

so happened to be on a long weekend

tell us what the problems were with that around your commissary and visitation and everything else,

Cheryl Womack (21:55)

So if you recall, I dropped and rolled to go in very sad, didn't spend much time saying goodbye to my husband because he was staying at my sister's in St. Louis nearby so that he could come see me that weekend for visiting and plan to stay every day for visitation and then go back home. And when I got in there and finally got settled into the room at that night, I figured out that they that I was not going to get a pack or pin.

Now I had my PAC number when I came in, I was not going to get a PIN and may not get my PIN for up to 48 hours. So if they didn't give it to me by Friday, because this is Thursday, I couldn't get it until Tuesday because they wouldn't be open Monday for doing those kinds of administrative services. It would be just the holiday staff.

I was horrified because my husband stayed in town to come and see me. I can't say goodbye. I can't call him because I don't have a PIN number to access any system to him anything. And that's where I came up with the plan that you need to make a friend when you get in there and ask them to call your spouse. whenever as a big sister, I would always get names and numbers of the girls when they came in of somebody they'd like us to call. And I would email them to my husband and have my husband call and say, look, she's there, she's safe. She's just not going to have access to a phone for maybe a couple of days.

So they know because you don't know.

when you first go is such an unknown. You just don't know when you don't know for sure. When are you really going to eat? You're not really sure when the counts are. The counts are at 10 o'clock in the morning and four o'clock in the afternoon, except for Monday through Friday on a workday. They don't do a 10 o'clock count because we're all working and stuff. But Monday, you know, so we went Saturday, Sunday and Monday was a holiday. So we did a count. So Tuesday,

I show up for count for 10 o'clock and I'm horrified people aren't there. thinking everybody's going to get in trouble because I'm used to 10 o'clock counts now. And you know, just learning the system and where you have to be because you have to start learning these things. But if you go in over a holiday, you saw, I couldn't get money on my books for commissary. I couldn't get money on my books to make phone calls. I couldn't, when you can't go to commissary, you can't get toothpaste. You can't get just some sleeping shorts to sleep in.

Big Sisters, if they have enough, one of the girls from Big Sisters brought me some sweatpants and then you got a brown t-shirt to go underneath your white jumpsuit. So I had my brown t-shirt and a pair of sweatshorts to sleep in that first night. But that's it. You know, and I was so afraid I'd forget my lanyard, I just slept in it. I was like, okay, I can't forget, because I'll take it off and off, won't remember it I'll get in trouble right away. So I just, I'll bet the first 30 days I slept in my lanyard constantly.

Katrina McLarin (24:19)

So that first weekend, I mean, it must be a little bit soul destroying. You can't have a visit. You'd already wired in money in advance so that you would have access to buy

commissary. You can't access that because you don't have a PIN number. So the PIN number links you to be able to do everything, really the pack and PIN jointly together. So when do you get the, like the prison greens, when does that happen? At what point do you fit it out in that uniform?

Cheryl Womack (24:36)

life.

The next morning because it wasn't Friday Had I come in and this happened Friday, I'd have been in that white jumpsuit until Tuesday But yeah, but because it was Thursday Then I got into laundry Friday morning and when they take you the morning after you get in there Unless you can get in there early enough in the afternoon that you're there before you have to be in there before three o'clock Because by three o'clock laundry has to close so they can go for count. So if you're not in there before three o'clock

and everything done medical and everything you've got to wait till the next day so I had to wait till the next day and I went in the morning about 530 in the morning they open and and they give you your shirts and pants and Shoes and again the hard part about that is that you know, they want to know what size do you wear? Well, it's all men's clothes. I don't know what size Pants I wear now I know a lot of girls now by 29 this and 29 that but it doesn't even necessarily size like that And then you have to know what size you only get boots

Now they take away your canvas shoes and you get men's boots. I don't know what size boots I wear in men's sizes and so we're trying that on. And some of them are in good shape and some are not in good shape and they're painful, but you get what you get. I mean...

Katrina McLarin (25:46)

So everything is

used in secondhand. You're not getting fitted out with a new uniform or such, a new prison uniform.

Cheryl Womack (25:50)

If you

ever get anything new that happened to come through during a new thing, you are a very lucky person. It does not happen. No. You know, that's where they give you a little more inventory for your granny panties. They give you a few more sports sports bras. They give you some more tube socks, men's socks. So you've got so you have all that. And then, you you and they tell you when to bring your sheets twice. Well, you come once a week to do your sheets and then you do, I think once a month to do your blankets and stuff.

But so they give you some of those dates and then you take your stuff back and now you wear your lovely greens, your professional greens, Monday through Friday, anytime that would be considered business office hours from eight until after four o'clock count, you've got to be in those things.

Katrina McLarin (26:29)

So do you hand back the white canvas outfit, the white outfit jumpsuit at this point when you were issued with the prison greens or do you still get, you still, you hand that back? Yep.

Cheryl Womack (26:35)

Yeah. ⁓ nor do you want that. I mean,

like you just glow in the dark in that thing. No, you just hear it here. You're happy to give it back. Now you're not happy to give back your canvas shoes. And a lot of us kept them. And then we got in trouble. We didn't get in trouble, trouble shot. But the guard, Miss Chris was like, I see all those canvas shoes and you were supposed to home hand those back in and you get in your boots. Or if you bought some tennis shoes, you could be in your tennis shoes. But there are a lot of girls in there who had canvas shoes, who'd been in there for a year, you know, and they shouldn't have been in those. So

Katrina McLarin (26:41)

Yep.

Cheryl Womack (27:04)

You had to give back the canvas shoes, yes.

Katrina McLarin (27:06)

So maybe as a bit of advanced research, if you know you're going in, know your men's size because it's all men's clothing.

Cheryl Womack (27:13)

everything. You've just got to know your size so when you go in. I mean, more people wear sports bras now than they ever did before. You know, I was not a big exercise queen back then. So I didn't have a sports bra or worry about what size sports bra and I didn't know. So again, I was lucky that they're used to fitting people out there that did some pretty good guesses and you'd have, the other thing that happens, I have to tell you is what happens is a lot of these girls have been on drugs. They've been on meth and they come in very small, very small. And

not healthy, not in good shape. And when they get in there, first thing they do is they put them in the bus stop and they're coming off drugs themselves. They're not getting any medicine to help them. They're not getting any help to help them. You know, there's nothing that helps them. They just have to come off of it, which is very painful to watch them because they sleep a lot or they're agitated a lot or, you know, you have to wake them up and you don't want to wake them up to make count or whatever they have to do, but they have to. And it takes a of them a while to do it.

Then the thing that happens is now they're hungry because they haven't, you now they're not taking meth anymore and they have a normal appetite. I literally would watch girls come in there that would be honestly a size six and in 60 days they might be a size 16. They blow up that fast. I mean, they just blow, I watched them go up where they had to be 20, 24, size 20, 24. They'd blown up so much from eating, you know, and they were, and so what's worse is you've got the meals to eat and that's a carb, carb-o-rama.

Katrina McLarin (28:18)

Wow. Wow.

Cheryl Womack (28:31)

And it's more important for them to give you a calorie count than it is for them to give you nutrition and to make sure you get the proper calories every day. But then all the food is junk. So for everything you do, for every entertainment thing, all the things that you can buy from everybody, it's syrupy, sweet, chocolatey, it's all junk. And so they blow up pretty fast.

Katrina McLarin (28:49)

and it's whole other thing is to talk about maybe how to improve upon nutrition in prisons. But I wanted to talk about, this is something that I was quite fascinated about when you and I have been discussing your story is the shower flip flops.

Cheryl Womack (29:02)

⁓

it's really sad because it's bad you don't get a comb. It's bad you don't, or I mean, I don't want a comb, I want a brush. It's bad you don't have toothpaste to go with the little toothbrush that comes out once a month. Like as big sister, I would put out toothbrushes once a month for general consumption and every girl in there would grab them because they use them for their eyebrows and they'd use them to clean their tennis shoes or what. They disappeared the same day they all came out. So.

I'd always put some back to make bags for the big sisters bags before I put the rest of them out there. But if you didn't have somebody doing that, they just weren't there to be had. But the first thing I looked at, so I'm looking at my room in the bus stop the first night and I look across because the bus stops are straight across from the bathroom for that particular alley. The tiles on the walls only stayed on the walls because there was so much mold growing around them. There are two trash bins that are 50, 50 gallon trash bins.

And the trash that's disgusting is pouring out of both of them. And they emptied them all day long and they just fill up and pour again, fill up and pour again. So I finally thought, okay, I've got to go get a shower. And everybody goes, you've got to have flip flops. And well, I don't have any money. can't get anywhere. So I had to go, I basically wore men's socks because they said people defecate in there. They have sex in there. There's mold and filth in there.

You do not walk on the shower floors. So when everybody goes in the shower, you have to have you have to have shower shoes and so Every now and then you'll find somebody who didn't know that and she'll be walking back and you're like, no, no, no, no, no And so again another thing I did and I would always ask people could they get an extra? They're a buck or a buck and a quarter So I'd ask people could you get an extra pair of shower shoes and just donate them so that for new people coming in? We could give them a pair of shower shoes

Katrina McLarin (30:45)

So that first night that you were in there and it's your first experience in the shower, I I'm relatively, I would say quite a private person. I don't think I'd be comfortable with necessarily showering in a communal way. Is that how it's all set up? Is it like the movies or are they cubicles? How is that set up?

Cheryl Womack (30:59)

In both the higher end prisons and in the, they're both, but in the camps, they're individual stalls. So the toilets are individual stalls and the showers are individual stalls and they have four or five of them. And there are some rules about it. Like if somebody comes and puts a towel over it, even if they're not in their shower and right now they've marked your spot and you better not go in there. Or sometimes there's towel over there and somebody's marked it because it's in use and you better not go in there. So for other reasons that you don't want to walk into.

there are communal ones that I think in larger prisons you go in group and you shower. Again, I was very fortunate where I was. It was not communal at all. everybody seemed very conservative and always, you can buy a robe eventually, or they'd put on a t-shirt, or you'd put on gym shorts and a t-shirt and run around. then they had communal blow dryers and flat, well, they didn't have flat irons really, but blow dryers and curling irons. Because the other thing I thought,

I won't wear makeup and I barely wash my hair the whole time I'm there. Yahoo! I hated putting on makeup. I hate doing my hair. This is going to be awesome. These people dress to the nines. I mean, they come in the morning, they're all made up, they look beautiful and you see them in there at five in morning putting all this make It's like, not happening. Then you stop and you realize this is their home. This is where you are for five years.

A Friday night is a Friday night for them. It's not just another night. A holiday is a Christmas holiday for them. It's not just another night. mean, for me, it's like I'm writing it all off till I get back out into the real world. And I didn't. When you saw, I mean, just to show respect, you dress and do the things they do because otherwise you're just disrespecting a life that they have to be in. And there's just no point. It is my life. And so even if I thought I want to be a bum for the next

Katrina McLarin (32:33)

And it's now your life. It's now your life and your reality.

Cheryl Womack (32:38)

you know, 15 months and, you know, not put makeup on and blah. The other thing is they'll cat call you and they'll tell you, get in there and, you know, your teeth and wash your face. And they'll tell girls, you know, get in there and clean up. So you just know, you just get with the flow and groom yourself.

Katrina McLarin (32:54)

Were you scared that first night, that first weekend? Were

you scared for your own safety or just more scared of the environment?

Cheryl Womack (33:01)

think I was scared overall. I was pretty afraid. I mean, I tried to make friends with the two sort of older women that were in a bunk bed right beside me, right in the window, like who's that doggie in the window kind of thing in the bus stop. And I couldn't get them to talk to me, so I'd throw things over on their bed and try to get them to come out. And you could hardly get it. It took a few days for them to come out and talk to me, but they became pretty good friends. But they were just minding their own business. One of had been in for eight years and had 10 years to do.

And the other one was going to be in for three years and she hadn't been in, but about 30 days longer than me. And so she was still covering her head with a blanket and not dealing with the entire. It takes people a while to figure out what are you going to come out? I I think I snipped out of it faster because I couldn't, you know, I sort of laid in bed a lot before I went to prison and moaned and groaned. And I just thought, I have to find something to do with myself or my days will last forever. And worse, worse for me, the whole place shuts down at 10 o'clock at night. Now I'm a 2 a.m. morning.

girl. I'm reading at night, I'm watching TV, I'm doing this and that and the other. I don't do that anymore, but I was. Suddenly at 10 o'clock, lights out, everything's dark, blah, blah. I'm horrified. How am I going to go to sleep? How am I not going to make noise? It was just that horrified me. And then I was afraid it'd be too hot because I like it cold. Well, I was really lucky because you can see with Martha Stewart, she's got blankets around her and stuff and I was in heaven. It was just like, I can sleep in this. I can deal with this.

So I mean the temperature and the noise volumes didn't bother me because I like noise and I like cool but for a lot of people it was really a struggle because the noise Can get to anybody but initially it's quite noisy to have you know 45 women in an alley or 10 women in a bus stop It's it's not that quiet and again you just have to mentally keep telling yourself just think about tomorrow. Don't think about any This is the time for you not to overthink. It's not

It's not a time for you to lay in bed and think about why are you here? How did you get here? This is a time for you to say, let's think about tomorrow and what are gonna do tomorrow? Or you're just laying in bed and cry.

Katrina McLarin (34:55)

something that I think would be good to end on is maybe talking a little bit about true links and true phone, because this, your pack and pen is leading towards being able to utilize these services. So what, what is true

Cheryl Womack (35:07)

TrueLinks is the system that you initially get on after you get your pin where you get into it, you set your name up, put, first thing you put is your pack and pin number at the top. And if you put a hashtag in front of it, then it will print out on the printer so you can print some stickers so that you can put them on your mail when you're sending it out, which was a trick they all showed us when you put the name in. But it's where you put all your contacts. And if you don't get that information in that computer with that information, that number, you,

You can't email anybody. You can't call anybody. If their name and number is not in there, you can't get to the TrueLink side where you can start making phone calls. So you could send emails and say, I'm on email. I can talk to you now. Now remember when you send an email, it's really important that that person on the other end has to see that in the notes, they're telling them a federal prisoner so-and-so is trying to contact you and you have to respond and say, it's okay. You want to talk to them. If you don't approve that email,

there's not going to be an exchange. So it's really important that if you don't respond back, it just goes into, and you're sitting there waiting for them to be able to talk to you, and it's not going to happen.

Katrina McLarin (36:06)

so

you're setting up your life in a way through the TrueLink system. You're setting up your email, you're setting up the phone system with Truphone, your commissaries through TrueLinks.

Cheryl Womack (36:15)

Right.

putting money, you're say allocating how much money for emails, how much money for the phone, how much will I have left over for commissary that's there. You're literally looking at your balances. The other thing that you get once you get to true links is when you get on there, you can go to the call out sheets. There's a tab and instead of going to look for the page that everybody's grabbing out in the hallway, central hallway, you can just go right there and see any CO, anybody who wants to see you the next day.

puts it on the call out sheet and you can see what appointments you have to go to see the doctor, go see the dentist, go see a counselor, go see the warden, whoever you have to go, who's scheduled appointment and they wanna see you, it's there and you need to show up.

Katrina McLarin (36:51)

what about the true phone itself and setting that up? How do you go about that once you're able to set that up?

Cheryl Womack (36:57)

It's horrible. It's horrible. It was one of the worst things I think you have to do. So the thing about it is you have to get on and if they do a good job of explaining it to you, have to say, you have to, when they hit the beep after you put your number in, you have to say, this is Cheryl Womack. And you have to say it. Now, the first time you're calling, you're calling home or trying to reach somebody. I'm trying not to cry. I'm trying to sound normal. I'm trying to not be stressed or agitated.

Now remember all these things, stress, agitate, anger, all these things that happen in the inflection of your voice, you're trying to pick a voice that you think you can replicate every time you get on that phone. Because when you get on the phone, you have to get on and go, this is Cheryl Womack. And until that thing recognizes that tone for saying this is Cheryl Womack, it will not let you in. You will not make a phone call. I can't tell you the people who you'd hear them saying that. You can hear somebody say their name over 50 times, 50 times. So of course I would be the...

banging the phone down going, can't believe this thing isn't working. Or they go, did talk to your husband? Yes, I did.

Katrina McLarin (37:57)

So important

to keep calm and try and keep even when you're accessing Truphone.

Cheryl Womack (38:02)

I mean, you could come in mad about something or mad at the person you're getting ready to call. Not going to get them on the phone till you can calm yourself down. It's actually a good zen kind of a thing to have to do, but it is really a hard thing to do. It is very, I mean, let's say something just happened, like there was a fight that broke out on the campus and suddenly you're excited and you're nervous and you're calling to tell your husband about it. It's not even a normal time you'd call him and you can't get through because it doesn't know your voice. It was an interesting time.