EP 38: ADHD Isn’t Just Behavior: Understanding the Root Causes Behind Your Child’s Struggles with Dana Kay, ADHD Thrive Institute

If your child struggles with focus, emotional outbursts, or constant overwhelm, this episode may completely shift how you see ADHD.

I’m joined by Dana Kay, founder of the ADHD Thrive Institute, who shares her powerful journey from feeling desperate as a mom… to helping her son truly thrive.

We explore what may actually be happening beneath ADHD symptoms — and how gut health, inflammation, and nervous system regulation can play a major role in your child’s behavior.

This conversation is validating, eye-opening, and full of hope for parents in the thick of it.

Dana Kay is a trusted expert in the ADHD space, a Board Certified Health and Nutrition Practitioner, two time international best selling author, and the CEO and founder of the ADHD Thrive Institute. She is also the host of The Soaring Child podcast and a mom to a child with ADHD, which means her work is grounded in both lived experience and clinical expertise.

Unlike surface level approaches that focus only on behavior, Dana specializes in uncovering and addressing the underlying biological drivers of ADHD symptoms so children can thrive at home, at school, and in life.

Where to find Dana Kay:

Website: ADHD Thrive Institute

Instagram: @adhdthriveinstitute

Where you can find me: 

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Shop my activity guides and free downloads

Transcript

Julianne 0:00

Welcome to the My Outdoors E Mom Podcast. I'm Julianne, Mom of Three, Outdoor Play Advocate, and the voice behind My Outdoors E Mom. Here we talk about raising outdoor confident kids, the kind who build forts, explore creeks, solve problems, and grow into capable humans through real play and real adventure. Each week you'll hear conversations about outdoor play, childhood independence, family travel, and the simple rhythms that help kids thrive. If you want to raise kids who spend more time outside and less time on screens, you're in the right place. Let's get outside. Today's guest is someone whose work I know is going to resonate deeply with so many parents listening, especially those raising kids who feel big emotions, have busy bodies, or struggle with focus, regulation, and overwhelm. I'm joined by Donna Kaye, founder of the ADHD Thrive Institute, board-certified health and nutrition practitioner, two-time international best-selling author, and one of the leading voices helping families understand the root causes behind ADHD symptoms and behavioral challenges in children. Donna's journey into this work began through her own son's struggles with ADHD when she found herself questioning whether there was more to the story than simply managing symptoms. What followed completely changed the course of her life. And today she helps families uncover how things like inflammation, gut health, nutrition, sleep, movement, nervous system regulation, and even outdoor time can profoundly impact a child's behavior and well-being. Donna, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today. So take us back into your journey with your own son's struggles with ADHD, because I think what you share will resonate with a lot of listeners, a lot of moms who are either in that struggle or have walked that struggle before.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, look, believe it or not, I actually used to be completely removed from the health and wellness space. If you had asked any of my friends what industry I would end up, it would definitely not be nutrition and health. I was an accountant. I planned to be an accountant my whole life, but you know, um, I was living that life and then I became a mum, and everything shifted when my oldest son really started to struggle quite severely from a young age. And he was incredibly bright, he was funny, he was loving, but he's was also really dysregulated and his meltdowns were intense, and we were walking on eggshells all the time. And I remember feeling like every single outing could turn into a disaster at any moment. And, you know, unless you've lived that as a parent, it's it's it's hard to sort of explain the level of stress that it it creates inside the home. Especially, you know, uh when I would ask the teachers, is this normal? They'd be saying, Yes, he's just a boy. But he would bounce off the walls. Now, eventually we did get a diagnosis of ADHD. At first, I felt this sense of relief, you know, like, okay, I'm not a bad mum. This is this is not my fault. And I've got this pill that can help me. And, you know, medication was that that one option that was presented to us. And I just want to say straight up, I'm not anti-medication. We use medication, you know, and at the time I thought it was the right thing to do. But what started happening was that every time we solved one problem, another one appeared. One medication, you know, started working, then it didn't. Then we added in another, and then sleep became an issue. And then so we needed to bring in something for that. You know, anxiety increased, and the doctor suggested another medication to counteract the side effects of the first medications. And I remember this moment so clearly. The doctor was suggesting a fourth medication for my son who was now five, not because of the original problem that we came to, but because the medications themselves were creating more issues. And I had that moment that you said when in the introduction was like, hang on, there must be more to this. And I just started researching obsessively. It became all-consuming. I was diving into all things gut health, nutrition, inflammation, toxins, all of this stuff. I went back to school. I studied uh nutrition, uh, holistic science, a functional medicine because, you know, I needed answers to work out what was going on. When we started addressing what was happening inside his body, that's when things started to change, you know, his meltdowns reduced. They became fewer and further between. His emotional regulation improved. He stopped bouncing off the walls, you know, his focus improved. Our home sort of became a bit more peaceful. And I think, you know, what hit me the hardest was sort of realizing how many other families are being told this is just what you've got to do for ADHD when there may be something underneath driving it. And that that became my mission. Uh, you know, fast forward to today, um, uh, my my company, ADHD Thrive Institute, we've now supported over 1,600 families. And what keeps me doing this work is seeing parents finally see their child again, finally understand that their child's not broken and it's just not the way that life's got to be. So many of these kids are carrying an enormous amount of stress inside their bodies. And when you reduce that stress and support the biology properly, it's incredible the changes that can happen.

Julianne 5:30

Wow. I hear you say so many things that I personally resonated with as a mom of a child who I thought, and I think a lot of parents find this or think this when they have a child like that, that their child is utterly defiant, right? And so you see a lot of these classic cases, many times boys, and I hear from so many moms of boys, I see in the Facebook group so many moms of boys who, as young as four or five years old, will say, My son is so defiant, my son is so strong-willed, they don't listen, they have these meltdowns, and just every single aspect of life seems to teeter on the mood of that one child. And I know you would understand how that feels as you just spoke of it. And I have felt that in a season of life. So when we talk about understanding the root cause, what were some of the first steps you did to uncover and peel back the layers of how to support your son from a more holistic standpoint and to start really taking a closer look at these medications and what can you do to support his body, to support his brain, to support some of these things you talked about, like his gut health.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah. Look, I I what I teach is a very sort of succinct step-by-step process. And I never teach what I did because I was doing it blindly and on my own and trying everything all at once. And so sometimes we just need to take a step back. And I think the biggest shift in perspective that I, you know, I try to teach parents is, you know, we look at ADHD behavior sort of in isolation. We look at that defiance, like what you said. Uh we look at the hyperactivity, we look at the inability to focus. And, you know, we we have this assumption is, you know, is this just who the child is? Is this purely ADHD? But when I look at those symptoms, I see them differently. You know, I see them as signals, signals that the body may be under stress. And so this is where the stress can come from, like what you talked about. We've got things like gut dysfunction, food sensitivities, inflammation, nutrient deficiencies, poor detox, mold exposure. I mean, it can go on and on. Don't get overwhelmed. Rome wasn't built in a day. I tell I say that, I think every time I talk to a family, just don't get overwhelmed. You know, we we don't have to tackle everything at once. But, you know, what's so fascinating is that many of these stresses create very similar behavioral symptoms. So a child may look ADHD externally, they may be diagnosed with ADHD externally, but internally the body is struggling. You know, if a child has something like chronic inflammation, that inflammation affects the brain. If the gut is inflamed, neurotransmitter production can be affected, which regulates our mood and our motion. If our nutrient levels are depleted, the brain can't function optimally. You know, if toxins build up faster than the body can clear them, the nervous system, you know, becomes stress. And children often can't articulate that something feels off internally. You know, we may be able to do that, but kids can't. And so their body speaks through behavior. And so that is why I like to shift that focus on like, you know, what should we do? Like, what should we do about this behavior? I I always sort of say behavior is communication. And I think this is such an empower, empowering perspective for parents because it moves us away from the blame. You know, instead of my child's being defiant, or my child's being difficult, or my child's choosing to act like this, we have to ask ourselves, what is stressing this child's symptom, this system? And that's when we start becoming detectives. And I find the number one thing, if I can bring it back to the number one thing, the biggest stressor in our child's body contributing to ADHD symptoms is inflammation. And it's important to start reducing this inflammation from the start. That's the first thing that we've got to do. You know, chronic inflammation, people might think, oh, you know, well, what's inflammation? You know, it's essential for us. It's essential for when we get a cut or when we are sick or, you know, but it can wreak havoc on healthy tissues. And so when you're in a chronic state of inflammation, that's when all these symptoms and the rest of the body starts breaking down. It's a biological response that's triggered by the immune system. But when you've got other things that are keeping that immune system on high alert, you know, all the time, that's when, you know, we have this chronic inflammation. You know, there's that ugly inflammation, as I like to talk about it. So the number one thing that we've got to do is we've got to reduce inflammation. Now, the World Health Organization ranks chronic diseases, chronic inflammation as the greatest threat to human health. Like, can you believe that? Like the number one thing. And years of research have identified some common signs and symptoms that develop as a result of chronic inflammation. Depression and anxiety and mood disorders, constant fatigue or insomnia, gut issues, body pain, weight gain, frequent infections. Many diseases have been attributed to chronic inflammation: asthma, ADHD, autism, cancer, heart disease, obesity, basically everything. So, you know, I think that we need to focus on what is exacerbating that inflammation in that body, that's where we start. We want to reduce what is causing that inflammation. And I can go into more detail about what we need to reduce, but I just wanted to, you know, say that first.

Julianne 11:26

So, what would you say to the parent that is wanting to take a closer look at what's going on with their child? But I'll tell you, even from my own personal experience, it starts to feel like you are the parent that is kind of an outcast for wanting to remove dyes from your child's diet, for wanting to approach ADHD from a holistic standpoint, because I think society is so, I'm gonna say it, programmed to think that there's a there's a pill for every ill, right? Yep. Um so when you're a parent and you've got a child who is so clearly struggling, yet you as a parent are not willing to put them on that medication or you're wanting to try everything under the sun, it can feel really isolating as a parent. So what would you say to those who are felt that similarly? Like they know that there's something deeper, but how can they champion for their kid, champion for understanding the root cause? Because it can feel really isolating. I I have felt that personally. I'm sure there have been parents or family members that are rolling their eyes at me because I'm wanting to eliminate gluten, eliminate dyes, you know, try this therapy, try that with my kid. Um, and that I'm just not willing to settle for a medication yet. You know, I'm I'm I'm the kind of parent that I'm gonna try everything under the sun until I get down to the root cause of it. What would you say to that parent that's feeling like really just they're just struggling with what everyone else is saying?

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Yeah, look, I know I've been there and I work with families every day that are there. And so, you know, I think it's finding your community, it's finding the people that you can surround yourself with that are on the same page. And at the end of the day, you know, you're not going to be able to convince the unconvinced. The only way that you convince them is either by showing them the multiple scientific studies. I mean, I could list off all of the scientific studies around diet, nutrients, all of these things for ADHD. But even then, they'll be like, well, why isn't this mainstream? That's a topic for another day, and we could actually probably spend a whole episode on why the medical system's the way that it is. Look, find your find your tribe. And at the end of the day, you know, choose your hard. Is your hard, you know, dealing with meltdowns and tantrums and walking on eggshells? Or is your heart changing your family's diet and giving it a try? I'd rather choose changing my family's diet and giving it a try to avoid all those meltdowns and all those tantrums that could go away if we tried something different. And, you know, what side effects are there from eating better? What side effects are there from taking a few supplements? What side effects are there of bringing a different type of cake to the birthday party? So I always say choose your hard. And if your heart is dealing with tantrums and meltdowns because the other seems too much, that is okay. You've got to give yourself permission to go at a pace that's doable for you. You need to give yourself permission to, you know, do what is best for your family. Only you know what's best for your family. And that's, you know, when you've got naysayers out there to say, well, why are you doing this? Why aren't you letting them eat what they want to eat? It's because they're not the ones that are having to, every day in and day out, uh, walk on eggshells, be on an emotional roller coaster. I used to sit on the end of my bed, bawling my eyes out every night, saying to my husband, I love my son, but I don't like him. And as a mum, to say that, my hard that I chose was changing food, bringing in some supplements. My son was diagnosed at four. He was on three meds. The doctor wanted him on the fourth. He's now 16. Um, he hasn't been on meds for years, and he's thriving. He's a competitive uh track athlete. He is a straight A student. Yes, he's a 16-year-old boy, he's not perfect, and I'm not gonna lie about that, but he's normal and he's happy. So I chose my heart early on, and it was hard, but that hard went away once we got used to it. It became our new normal.

Julianne 15:47

You said something about your son, and I think there's a lot of moms that obviously feel this way about their sons, but underneath the defiance, underneath the dysregulation, there is a beautiful child underneath all of that behavior. There is a child who is brilliant, who is smart, who has gifts, who has talents. And I have seen in my own experience the behavior can be so challenging that the child begins to feel that way too. The child begins to sense that they are the hard one, the tough one, the one who makes every single family outing go awry. And something that you said in your interview was that many behaviors in children are not simply bad behavior or parenting failures, but there's something deeper going on. And you also talked about this trash can analogy. I would love for you to dive into that and tell us, because I I immediately wrote that down. I thought, wow, this is a brilliant way to explain this, but can you dive deeper and tell listeners about your trash can analogy and how that impacts kids' growth and their regulation?

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah, for sure. I I love, I like to use analogies quite a lot. I'm glad that you asked about this one because it's my favorite one. And it kind of explains, like, you know, why some kids end up the way that they do. And, you know, I always have uh families that come to me, well, like, why is this child this way? But, you know, his brother is not this way. Um, they, you know, same house, same food, same, same everything. Now we've all got, and I'm holding up for those that are watching a video, if you're listening, you won't see it, but I've got this like mini trash can. And, you know, we all have a trash can inside our body. You know, that and throughout life, things get thrown into the trash can. We've got, you know, poor diet, we've got stress, we've got viruses, we've got bacteria, medications, environmental toxins, heavy metals, all the different things, you know, and all of it adds to the load. Now, normally in our body, our body's meant to empty that trash can regularly through our detoxification pathways. So just imagine, you know, every Monday you take your trash can out to the side, the garbage truck takes it away. That is what healthy detoxification detoxification should look like inside our body. The liver processes those toxins, the gut removes the waste, the kidneys filter things out, the body clears things out. Now, what I have found in so many kids with ADHD is that their body is not emptying their trash can efficiently. And that's for many reasons. Genetics is a big one. And I will tell you, this is one of the reasons why one child might be one way and another child might be the other way. I do a lot of genetic testing in my business. I've done families of five. And so you've got both parents' genetics and you've got the three children genetics. I've seen families where, you know, they're all pretty much identical. You're like, yeah, they're totally related. I've seen other families where one child gets all the bad version of the genes from both parents, and then the other two got all the good versions of the genes. That is why that one child suffers more. Other things that can uh, you know, block detoxification are gut dysfunction, nutrient deficiencies, methylation issues, which is in again related to genetics, and that inflammation. Okay, so the trash starts piling up faster than the body can clear it. Eventually it overflows, and that overflow is when symptoms start coming out. That overflow causes the inflammation that causes the stress throughout the whole body and throughout the brain. And that inflammation can show up as ADHD symptoms, hyperactivity, poor focus, mood swings, anxiety, sensory issues. Now, the important part here is I'm not saying ADHD is caused by, you know, a full trash can or caused by toxins or one thing. The analogy is about the cumulative load because every child's trash can is different. One child may be more affected by food, one may be more affected by mold, one may be more affected by nutrient depletion or gut infections or genetics. But the more overloaded the system becomes, the harder it is for the brain and the nervous system to function well. And that is why some kids seem to fall apart under stress more easily than others. Their trash can is overflowing. So the goal is to reduce the load going in and improve the body's ability to take the trash out.

Julianne 20:18

So if you're a parent that's hearing this and you're thinking, oh my gosh, this is me, this is my child, and everything you're saying makes sense, but it's beginning to feel overwhelming. Where should a parent start first? Because I hear you, and I've been there. I've sat in the same seat of, okay, where do I begin? Do I begin with diet? Do I begin with sleep? You become like a detective for your kid. You become a detective if, you know, like any good mom, we all want our children to be healthy and thriving, right? The Thrive Institute. I mean, we all have this deep desire as moms to see our children thrive. Where can a parent start on this journey? You talked about all the things that kind of build up this toxic load. And each kid's trash can is so individualized. Where can a parent start first?

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Look, I think that we need to meet each family where they are. And that's what you've got to take that assessment. And when, you know, we we offer a free call with our business, A Thrive Institute, because every child is so different. And we need to understand the dynamics of that house. We need to understand, you know, what they can and can't do, and really making that assessment and meeting them where they are. If you just want to start small, let's just start with changing up the diet. Let's focus on bringing in some better foods for breakfast. That's it. Okay. Let's change out some of the packaged foods that we're eating to more whole foods. That's it. You do that for six months. You'd be surprised the change that can happen in a child just by removing some of those packaged foods and bringing in more whole foods. Now, I've got other families that are like, I just want to know what to do. I want to do it all. I want to go in hard. For those families, you know, I think that's where functional lab testing comes in. I like to actually, rather than guess, I like to test. Functional lab testing is, you know, different to what you may get at the doctor. When you go to a traditional doctor, they'll do some labs, they'll say everything's normal. Traditional testing is looking for disease. Okay. Functional lab testing is looking for dysfunction. So instead of us asking, does your child have a diagnosable disease in process, we ask what is stressing the child's symptom and what's preventing them from functioning optimally through a very different lens, as you can see. So, you know, if you are one to go, I just want to know what's going on with my child, I want to know now, I want to plan to fix it. I would definitely recommend starting there because you're not guessing. You're not guessing what foods to remove, you're not guessing what, you know, supplements to bring in. It's going to give you a very clear picture of what is going on in the body. One of the tests that we use will look at the gut. It's going to look at things like is there gut breakdown? Is there yeast overgrowth, bacteria, parasites, things like that? Um, we look at food sensitivity testing. What foods are currently creating inflammation in that body? And that's a very clear way of like, okay, we want to reduce inflammation, so let's temporarily take out those foods so we can drop that inflammation level and we can heal that gut. Gives us that plan. So we're not going to say, so my son, um, and this is why I say don't do what I did. We did functional lab testing and we got back his food sensitivity test and uh we did some other testing as well. But yeah, we he had 40 food sensitivities. I took out gluten, dairy, soy, and 40 food sensitivities on day one. Let's just say, multiple panic attacks uh on my floor, so stressed about what I was gonna feed, feed him. Don't do that. So that's rare that we get so many back, but you know, it's gonna help us temporarily reduce that inflammation so we can heal what's going on in the gut. You know, I want data, I want clues, you know, I want to know what we're dealing with. And once you know that, that's when you can start to actually build out a plan that's step by step. Another test that we do is called an organic acid test. It's one of my favorite because it gives a really sort of comprehensive snapshot of how the body's functioning. It looks at over 70 different markers, B vitamins, nutrient deficiencies, detox pathways, neurotransmitters, gut microbes, yeast, things like that. Um and, you know, it's a really good bang for your buck. There's another test that we do, it's called a cryptopyrol test. And these are my sort of base four tests that I do that will really give us the answers for that child. And a really simple way to go, okay, this is what we need to do, this is what food changes we need to make, this is what supplements we need to bring in, and these are the lifestyle changes that we need to make. So if you are more of a data-driven person, I would say start there. But if if you just want to dip your toe in the water, let's just start one meal at a time. Let's look at the say top three inflammatory foods. Top three inflammatory foods are gluten, dairy, uh, soy, I mean artificial colours and flavors is another one. But you know, from all the labs, I do a I do a test called a wheat zoomer. It looks at about 30 different peptides inside gluten and wheat. And so it gives you a very good understanding: is that child reacting to gluten? It's not just a standard food sensitivity test that will say at the top protein level, they're not reacting. But I can tell you I've looked at probably 2,000 of those tests. And, you know, most kids are extremely reactive to many different peptides inside gluten. So if you just wanted to start there, why don't we just try gluten-free for three months? See how that goes. You know, that's the number one food that I recommend that all children with ADHD cut out of their diet because it is so inflammatory that almost everyone with ADHD or without ADHD, you know, should probably stop eating it. Plain and simple. It triggers leaky gut, uh, you know, which is a breakdown of the lining of the gut in pretty much everyone, even those that don't show allergic response to it. So we haven't talked about the gut brain connection yet, but um, you know, gluten is one of those things that will uh uh really uh break down that gut and affect that gut brain connection. There's also an antibody that can develop called glutamorphin. That you and glutamorphin basically binds to opioid receptors in the brain. When you look at the name glutamorphin, sounds very similar to morphine. And so a lot of kids have antibodies developed against this peptide inside wheat, and that gluten is acting like an opioid in the brain. It's causing these neuropsychological issues, it's causing just like someone who is addicted to morphine, like they're addicted to morphine. And when you actually go on a gluten-free diet, these kids that have those antibodies will get worse before they get better because they're going through a gluten withdrawal response. So it's actually a good thing. Uh, you just got to get past that. But you know, pick a food. I say start with gluten and change breakfast. Let's just focus there. And once you've changed breakfast and you feel comfortable and the family feels ready, change Monday night dinner. And it's simple, you know. I always say you don't have to be a gourmet chef. I do not like cooking. Surprisingly, I make pretty much the same things every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Um, and I just rotate my menu because I I need to know, you know, I've got a busy life, busy children, busy business. You know, I need to know that my kids are getting fed healthy and I need it to be as less stressful as possible on me. So just start one small thing.

Julianne 28:01

Well, it's funny that you mention just the gut brain access because I have been on a journey these last few months to try and eliminate packaged snacks from my pantry. And it's it's a common, you know, situation that many mothers find themselves in. You're whether you're packing school lunches or you're sending a kid off to practice after school, they have to have something. And a lot of times what's easy and what's fast is gonna come in a bag or a wrapper. And so I removed like 99% of the snacks in my pantry that were packaged because I saw my kids. They were, like you said, they were getting cranky, they were craving it more often. So that was a big signal that this is if they're and a lot of times it's just laden with sugar, right? Not to mention the gluten, but they were like craving more and more sugar. And then when they didn't have it, they'd be cranky. They'd be cranky little monsters. And so I said, enough of this. Like I'm the one that's controlling the food that comes in and out. Within a week or two, I saw an immediate shift in my kids reaching for something for sugar and replaced it just with more fruit. I mean, those are natural sugars, and you know, trying to supplement too with like something that offered fat and protein. But the change that I saw was remarkable. In a week, just that craving for sugar got less and less, and the meltdowns obviously got less and less. But I want you to go back to that gut brain access and explain it in really, really simple terms because if you're listening to this and all of this is so new to you, the research tells us that 80 to 90 percent of our immune system, of our immunity lies within the gut, right? So, what is it about the gut brain access and how do those two talk to one another? And can you just kind of break it down in the simplest way possible for everyone to understand?

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah, definitely. I love that you shared that uh that personal story about changing packaged foods, though. I think it's so relatable. And, you know, that's that's you know, if you want to start there, start there. Uh and it's amazing how what we put in our body is what we get out of it. And so just making that one shift, you know, can reduce a lot of symptoms uh in in many of our children. So kudos to you, that's awesome. I think I like to explain, firstly, the importance of the gut. You know, as you said, 80% of the body's entire immune system is within the gut wall, along with billions of nerve cells and an extensive amount of beneficial bacteria. And so I just want to start off with some statistics. It's estimated, this was done, I think, in 2000 study, 54% of American children were diagnosed with a chronic illness. And that figure was only 15% a couple years before. And so that increase to look at that as like shocking. One in two kids have asthma, anxiety, type 1, type 2 diabetes, epilepsy, heart problems, allergic conditions, one in five have allergies, one in six have developmental delays, and one in 32 have autism. And so we have to think to ourselves why has that rise occurred so rapidly? And the answer is simple, it all begins in the gut because your body's entire immune system is within the gut. Now, all our children's health and ours is quite literally connected to everything that goes on in the gut. I have had countless families come to me for guidance on their child's ADHD symptoms. We we get a family history. We ask them, you know, is there any history of sickness? People usually tell me they're healthy. We talk about gut symptoms. No, there's no gut symptoms. And when we press forward, we ask, has your child ever been on antibiotics? I wish I actually took a poll and kept uh a note of it of how many of the families that I spoke to that had been on antibiotics. I ask if there's been constipation. Yeah, it probably goes once every two days when I they're surprised to learn that that's not healthy, that's not normal. It might be very common, but it's a byproduct of an unhealthy gut. Now, most antibiotics, what happens is they work by killing bacteria or preventing it from growing. They can be life-saving, but unfortunately, most antibiotics can't distinguish between the good and the bad bacteria. And that means that they can wreak havoc on the gut's healthy bacteria, and people can actually suffer lasting changes to their gut flora as a result of taking antibiotics. So we've got this large percentage of children, they've been on multiple rounds of antibiotics, and this in turn is compromising the gut. And so when the gut is compromised, it's not a huge surprise to see the disorders and illnesses on the rise. But I just like to lay that foundation first. Now, I want to tie gut health to the brain and ADHD. Now, what the gut brain connection means is that in essence, our brains are deeply connected to our guts. If our guts aren't functioning well, our brains won't be able to function well either. Now, 95% of the body's serotonin and about 50% of the body's dopamine, which a lot of kids that have ADHD, the parents would know about dopamine. They're constantly seeking, you know, dopamine rushes and things like that. These are made in the gut. These neurotransmitters are the ones that help us manage emotions, balance our mood, help our cognitive function. Emotional dysregulation is one of the most common symptoms of ADHD, but many parents don't realize that the emotional dysregulation is actually starting in the gut, where the serotonin and where the dopamine are made. So the problem then isn't the emotions themselves, but the fact that the correct amount of these vital neurotransmitters are not being made in the first place. So by working on improving gut health, many parents of kids with ADHD find that emotional dysregulation problems solve themselves. That's one side of it. Now the brain has many areas involved in gut function, chief of which is the frontal lobe. And if you're listening, I'm pointing to the middle of my forehead. This is the area that talks to the gut via two-way chemical messages and nerve branches through the vagus nerve. The frontal lobe is responsible for attention, focus, executive function, planning, organizing, problem solving. Do any of these areas sound like ones affected by ADHD? Yeah, so if you're familiar with it, they definitely should. You know, children with ADHD often struggle with all of those tasks. Because the frontal lobe is in the brain, many people are under the impression that is the brain that needs care, where in reality, it's also the gut causing the problems. So you think of it like a highway. You know, okay, have you ever had butterflies in your stomach because you were nervous about something? You know, maybe it was a first date or a test or a conflict. That's a perfect example of the gut-brain connection. Our bodies perceive whatever we're nervous about as a stressful situation, then our brain is triggering those raw emotions in the gut that result in those feelings of butterflies or nausea. That's the brain talking to the gut. So the reverse has to also be true. The guts talk to our brains as well. And so when the digestive system, the immune system, the balance of the gut bacteria, if there's a higher level of bad bacteria than good bacteria, that's called gut dysbiosis. That gut dysbiosis creates inflammation. That inflammation travels up through the vagus nerve into the brain. And once that reaches the brain, it creates symptoms like brain fog, which is inability to focus, confusion, poor memory, and a whole host of neurobehavioral disorders like ADHD, anxiety, depression. Now, as I said, it's like a highway. They're constantly sending messages back and forth. Now, interestingly, when medication is prescribed for ADHD, it's often to treat the symptoms in the brain alone. But that medication does absolutely nothing about whatever might be going on in the gut.

Julianne 36:00

So one of the things I wanted to make sure I asked you about too, because when I hear you talk about the gut brain access and how ADHD symptoms typically present themselves is really through a lot of dysregulation. And something that I talk a lot about over on my Instagram and through my platform is nervous system regulation. And when I read through your questionnaire, I saw that you two like to spend time outside with your kids and that you find a lot of regulation in spending time outside for your kids, but also together. How can families make this connection between dysregulated bodies to spending more time outside? And what did that look like for you in your journey with your own son's ADHD? I mean, I can speak personally that when my kids are outside, and I mean it's true for all adults. Who comes back inside after being outside unhappy? You know, when you go outside, you take a five-minute break, five, ten, fifteen-minute break, most often, whatever was bothering you beforehand, you feel a lot better when you step outside. But what did that look like for you and your son as you're walking this journey early on?

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Look, I love that you brought up nervous system dysregulation because kids with ADHD, because their trash cans overflowing, their body is in this fight or flight mode. And so their nervous system is completely shot right now. And one thing that I learned early, inside our program, we have a parent and child therapist. She's wonderful. And she taught me that we hold the keys to our child's nervous system. And when you think about that, that means that they borrow our nervous system when they're dysregulated. And it was kind of like, wow. And that happens, you know, up until the age of like 12, 13 mainly, and then still happens up until, you know, later in life. Every time I speak to her on the podcast, her re her nervous system regulates my nervous system and you can see it just working beautifully. But I think that if we understand that, the way that we can show up for our children is regulating our nervous system. And getting outside for me does that, as you said. You know, when I'm out in nature, when I'm walking, you know, we live in the Pacific Northwest, there's a lot of hiking trails. When I walk out in nature or I'm walking my dog, I feel calm. And when I feel calm and I come back into the house and my son needs to be dysregulated, just standing there next to him and breathing, you can see that calm come over him as well. And so when our child is dysregulated, yes, it's it's not about perfect parenting, trust me on that one. I'm not saying we need to be regulated 100% of the time, and I truly am not either. But, you know, if I have to take a moment before I can regulate my nervous system, I will, but then I will come up and I will show up and knowing that my nervous system will bring his down. Um, I think that is so powerful to understand. There's so many scientific studies around it, and so you know, getting outside is is is part of that, is breathing that air in, it's getting the vitamin D from the sun, it's touching the ground and the soil and getting outside because, you know, even if you try to have the perfect house and less toxins and all of this sort of stuff, we're all inside. It's all it's all in the air. And so getting out into nature brings in the fresh air, it brings in the fresh, you know, vitamin D, it brings in so much nature and regulation to our nervous system that doing that on a on a frequent basis is is super important to sort of like bring them down, to bring us down and allow us to like co-regulate.

Julianne 39:48

You said something earlier that I wanted to point out, and it was that fight or flight response. And it took me a year or two into my journey with my own child when I finally realized that this kid is stuck in fight or flight constantly. And the dysregulation was really the body just being stuck in this fight or flight mode all the time. And when I say dysregulation, that was the combative behavior, the defiance. I could say that the sky was blue and my kid would say, No, it's not. Their bodies felt so uh dysregulated and for whatever reason, like unsafe, right? But once I really understood that and understood how much my own nervous system regulation played into it, it was like like it was the the switch was flipped for me, and I began to realize that I had to go way deeper and go way back to uh trying to address the nervous system regulation with my with my child. And one thing you talked about in your questionnaire is that a lot of kids are struggling with behavioral issues today, but there's something about our modern lifestyle that really isn't designed to for a child's nervous system to flourish. When we look at the average schedule for a kid, let's say who is in traditional schooling outside of the home, they're being asked to sit, they're being asked to, you know, obey, they're being asked to do these things. And then after school, a lot of times they come home, they're going straight back in the car to go to one, maybe two different practices, or maybe they're getting carted to sister's practice. What do you think about the behavioral issues that are being labeled today?

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Wow, uh, I 100% agree with all with what you're saying. I and I I've been having this conversation a lot with with my friends, my 16-year-old, I've got a 12-year-old and a 16-year-old. My 16-year-old is obviously uh he's in grade 10, he's doing all of these things in preparation of trying to apply to colleges and and all of that. And, you know, I think back to what it was like when I was in school and I wanted to go to university. I literally sat exams in grade 12. I literally added, put some applications online, and I either got into the uni of my choice or not. You know, it was like simple. But what we're asking these kids to do just to get into college is out of this world. But that starts all the way back down to when they're young because there is such a competitive nature in the world that we live in today. We need to get our kid into this sport, we need to pay for them to do extra training in this sport. Oh, they're they're not getting straight A's, we they need to go and do tutoring. And so we're loading on to this lifestyle for this child that is super overwhelming. And if your nervous system is already dysregulated, if your trash can is already full, there's no space for that. That's why symptoms are going to come out even more. You know, that stress in that life, that's one of the things that goes in that trash can. And so if we're piling on more things on top of that trash can and they're struggling to take that trash out every week, that's stress and is creating inflammation in the body. It's exacerbating symptoms. And so sometimes we've got to go back to basics. You know, I always I also say, you know, okay, technology, it's uh it's it's there for a reason. You know, it's part of our children's lives. In in in my opinion, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but if it's left unsupervised and unlimited, it can turn into a bad thing. Because not only, you know, are they it can have a negative effect on their social skills, their relationships, their health, their overall ability to focus, which again is gonna add to that, you know, ADHD symptoms. It can just overwhelm them. It's like sugar. The more you eat, the more you want. Technology, the more you watch, the more you want. It's that dopamine rush. But our schools are giving our kids computers, they're on computers all day. Long. They come home, then they need to be on the computer to do their homework. And then they want a game. And so, you know, back in the day, we used to go to school, we came home and we played out in the neighborhood, outside, in nature, until it was dark. Until it went dark, we came home and we had dinner. So I feel like we've gotten into this fast-paced world and fast-paced life for our children, but they still need to be children. They still need to get out and develop social skills and have, you know, problems with kids in the neighborhood. They need to get out and experience and develop life because they're not. They're being stuck on computers all day long, every day, and then rushed from here to here to here, and not really growing and maturing and learning all the skills that we were used to learning. And so we've given our kids these computers and at the same time, not adjusted our lives to help them still be kids.

Julianne 44:58

When you talked about the screen time, you know, it's funny because, like you said, every kid is so different. No matter if they come from the same family, each kid is so different. And I have found that my kiddo that is ADHD prone is we have to be really cognizant of screen time. And when I say screen time for us, it's never a personal tablet. None of my kids have a personal device, but it's simply just time in front of the TV. Yeah. And so some of my kids do really well with, you know, we're gonna have this one hour as a family to watch TV, or you can pick one show. And then there's my other kiddo who even if you just give him a little bit, you know, you can see those dopamine receptors activating and he wants more and more, and he is much more sensitive to that than the other two. And so we have to put really firm boundaries on that because one of them just doesn't have this the self-control or executive functioning skills that you talked about earlier. And that's something for us that has been really challenging is that, you know, while my other two can handle us a little bit of screen time, my one kiddo, we have to be really firm on the boundaries and limits because I can just see that that dopamine receptor response, addictive, you know, nature and wanting more and more once they get a little bit of it. So that's been a struggle for us. You know, the more time my kids spend outside, of course, the less screen time they ask for because they're just busy playing outside. And I think it's been really challenging for us as a family to be countercultural in the sense of not scheduling my kids for nine million activities. I heard a mom once say that her two kids that were under the age of nine were in nine different activities. And I thought, I don't know how I would be with nine different activities, but it's just simply not something for my family. And it it feels very countercultural to say we're not doing activities this season right now. We're simply playing outside in our backyard. But I think in doing that, we've protected our kids from the need to be stimulated constantly, the need to be doing something different all the time because they go out in the yard and they find a stick and they realize, okay, I can play with this stick in a few different ways. And then their creativity flourishes, they're strengthening their sibling bonds. And I think that's something that is that feels very countercultural, but I I can see as a mom the fruit that, you know, has been born of it. I'm trying to really balance the amount of activities that that they have because, you know, it's just it creates a stressed-out kid, it creates a stressed-out mom.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

100% agree. I I'm totally with you on that. I I think that, you know, we I think it's an important thing, especially for a child whose trash can is always also full, that their nervous system is in that fight or flight. Piling more on does not help with that. And they're developing these skills that they wouldn't develop. They being bored. Our kids these days, they can't be bored. They need to be constantly doing something. And so that in itself, like, there's gonna be times they're gonna have to be bored. But, you know, just as you said, picking up a stick and working out what we can do four ways with this, and it's gonna keep us entertained for at least half an hour to an hour.

Julianne 48:16

You mentioned something in your questionnaire that I really loved, and you talked about how you've been really enjoying these side-by-side conversations with your sons outdoors. I find that to be true of my own children. I'm coming into a season where the conversations are really rich and more engaging when we're side by side outside. And why do I'm curious, why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 48:38

I don't really know. I mean, um uh, you know, the the the moments are uh a less um are less there with my older son, but every time I'm with him and it's just the two of us outside, the conversation just flows and it's my it's my most cherished moment. Sometimes it has to happen in a car uh on a way to uh some activity. When it's just me and him, uh that's the most precious time. My younger son, I walk him to the school bus every morning, and that is the best time of my day. We literally just talk about whatever, but we're outside, we're walking to the bus. It's just me and him, and that is that is that's our relationship. That is what our relationship is built on, is those moments.

Julianne 49:24

I love that. Thank you for sharing. I I want to also just, you know, point to how you shared how deeply you struggled with your child in the beginning. And now to hear you talk about him. He's, I mean, he's a young man getting ready to eventually go off to college. And I think as a mom, too, especially when you have a son, that relationship changes, right? That relationship grows and flourishes in a different and new way. And that's where I see that side-by-side conversation. From many friends and moms who have gone before me and have older children, they say, you know, you start having less of the face-to-face or walking behind them like because you're pushing a stroller, but then these relationships with your sons deepen and you start to do kind of life side by side with them. And it becomes like a whole new, beautiful season of life. What would you say to the mom who's listening, who is struggling with all the things that you struggled with, that I struggled with, who loves her child deeply, but doesn't necessarily like them because they're overwhelmed by their behavior, the emotional swings and the constant intensity. What would you say to them to encourage them to just keep fighting the good fight?

SPEAKER_01 50:30

You're not a bad mom. You are doing everything that you can to help your child. And just the thought of trying to help them is you caring. I also want to say you're not alone. Uh I used to feel like I was on an island on my own and no one else was going through what I was going through. But when you find your tribe and when you find other families that are going through the same thing as you, um, you realize that you're not alone, but there's hope. There is so much hope out there. If I have gone from a five-year-old who I did not like on multiple medications to a 16-year-old who I absolutely adore. Yes, he's a 16-year-old boy. You know, I'll give him that. I pay him out a lot about it. But, you know, I adore him. I'm so impressed by him. What he's done in track, what he's done in school. If I can do that, you can too. And it doesn't have to be hard. It really doesn't. Find your people. Find someone that's walked that path before you because you don't have to keep suffering. You know, it's not just a label that you have to live with. It's not just symptoms that, well, they've got ADHD, but you can just put medication on. That's not true. It's a hundred percent not true. I've shown you in my story, you can go on my website and watch videos of countless families that have gone through this process and their child is absolutely thriving now. That it doesn't have to be hard. And just one step will keep you moving forward.

Julianne 52:15

You mentioned your website and the testimonies that parents can find there. Where can they grab your book and connect with your work? Can you give us the website?

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Yeah, so my website is adhdriveinstitute.com, my book, which you can see here, Thriving with ADHD, a guide to naturally reducing ADHD symptoms in your child. You can get that on Amazon. You can get it cheaper on my website as well. Um, I host a podcast called the Soaring Child Podcast, uh, which is all about the things that I talk about, uh, that I've talked about here today, and on all the social media, ADHD Thrive Institute.

Julianne 52:49

Wonderful. So before we wrap up, Donna, I'd love to end with our outdoorsy challenge. I asked this of every guest. What's one small thing families could do this week to get outside to support their child's nervous system?

SPEAKER_01 53:05

I would say take your shoes and your socks off and go and play in the backyard, even for 10 minutes. Ten minutes is not a lot. Even if you say to your children, we're going outside, we're taking our shoes off, we're taking our socks off, you get to choose the game. Give them full control and you do not take any control over it. Because when you can give them the choice and them to drive, you know, that builds that relationship, that builds that connection, and really can help them reduce that stress in their body as well.

Julianne 53:41

I love that. Take your socks off, take your shoes off, get outside and let your kid pick what they want to do with you. That's beautiful. Donna, this conversation was incredibly encouraging and practical. Thank you so much for being here on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me. It's been super fun. Thanks so much for spending part of your day with me here on the My Outdoorsy Mom podcast. If this episode resonated with you, it would mean so much if you followed the show, shared it with a friend, and left a five star review. That's the best way to help more parents discover these conversations and raise kids who love being outside. You can find me over on Instagram at My Outdoorsy Mom, where I share simple ideas to help kids play outside more every day. Thanks again for listening. Now go open the back door.