Mama You Belong
Welcome to 'Mama You Belong' - a podcast for moms in the thick of it. We delve into the need for belonging and connection that mothers often face alone and help you feel seen. We acknowledge the dissonance between societal expectations of motherhood and the realities of managing our mental and physical load, with science and trauma-informed support. Co-hosts of 'Mama You Belong' are Kirsten Desmarais, PT, DPT, OCS, CD(DONA) a physical therapist, birth doula, and mother of three, and Molly Hilgenberg, MSW, LICSW, a psychotherapist, singer/songwriter, and new mom.
Kirsten and Molly were both kids who collected rocks, hugged trees and grew up in different towns in Minnesota. They met only a few years ago when Kirsten became Molly's PT and then her birth doula. They bonded when they both realized they could pretty much share anything without judgment and text each other about the moon.
Through shared stories and expert insights, 'Mama You Belong' seeks to empower mothers by creating a supportive space for connection and understanding in their unique journeys. Each episode aims to provide validation, education, and some laughs. By sharing our stories and inviting expert guests in future episodes, we aspire to create a nurturing and inclusive environment for moms.
Mama You Belong
Nighttime Nurturing: Who decided children should sleep through the night? (Baby Sleep Regression & Mom Guilt)
Why do so many moms feel like failures when their baby won’t sleep “the right way”? In this honest and vulnerable conversation, we dive into the guilt, shame, and societal pressure surrounding baby sleep regression and the unrealistic standards parents face.
When one of us went through a sudden 15-month toddler sleep regression, she tried every sleep training tip recommended by experts and well-meaning friends. Nothing worked—until car rides became the only solution. But even then, the mom guilt crept in: “Am I a bad mother because I can’t get my baby to sleep without this crutch?”
👉 If you’ve ever asked yourself the same thing, this episode is for you.
What We Talk About in This Episode:
- Why baby sleep isn’t a skill to be trained but a biological function
- The emotional toll of sleep regressions on moms
- Reframing “nighttime parenting” as “nighttime nurturing”
- How questions like “Is your baby sleeping through the night?” fuel shame
- Better ways to support moms during the hardest sleep seasons
Instead of viewing night wakings as failures, we can see them as natural ways our children communicate their needs. Your child isn’t manipulating you; they’re reaching out for comfort—and responding is real parenting work.
If you’re a mom struggling with baby sleep, toddler sleep regressions, or just the overwhelming pressure to “get it right,” this episode will remind you: your worth as a parent has nothing to do with how independently your baby sleeps.
We’d love to hear your story—email us at mamayoubelong@gmail.com
or share this episode with another tired mama who needs encouragement.
Check out the book Molly recommended from our FAV local bookstore!
Nurture Revolution by Greer Kirshenbaum, PhD
And
An awesome influence on socials, Brittany Chambers @goodnightmoonchild
speaking of Brittany..... you need to check out her shop. Her shirts are amazing.
Kirsten's Physical Therapy website
Hey, mama, you belong. We are so glad you're here. We are your hosts. Molly mental health therapist, singer and songwriter, tree hugger and a new mom like many of you physical therapist, birth doula, deep feeler, lover of trees and fellow mama, we hope you feel seen through these episodes and truly believe that you belong.
Speaker 1:Hi, kirsten, hi, hi. I was thinking about how we start these episodes and I was listening to another really great podcast called how to Survive the End of the World. Have you heard of it? I strongly recommend it. It's very soothing to the nervous system to listen to. It's two sisters, adrienne Marie Brown, who's a writer I really like, and then her sister, autumn, and they host a lot of amazing people who are like activists and artists and I don't know just some really cool people. But anyway, they start there as like really being real about how they are, and I think that might be why I struggle.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, because I've been like worried about being really real with how I'm doing yeah and I'm still in the minnesota like I'm fine way, yeah, so let's just start our episodes being really real about how we're doing okay, what do you think?
Speaker 2:I'm good with it? Okay, I feel like we we follow a winding road of getting there. We do with every episode. That's fine, but I'm fine skipping fine just taking the shortcut.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay right.
Speaker 2:Well, do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?
Speaker 1:I can go first, okay, I. I think that one. One thing I also took away from a recent interview they did on that podcast is a way of kind of acknowledging like in my personal world I'm generally okay, but it doesn't feel right to say I'm good anymore when we need to acknowledge just the general ongoing horrors in the world. Yeah, so there needs to be some kind of like new way going forward where we really can acknowledge that with our loved ones you know, right, like things are not okay but I'm managing, yes, and sometimes I'm really doing well and I'm happy, and other times I'm not.
Speaker 1:But yeah, there's just this like kind of ongoing assault to so many peoples and beings and the earth that it's just. It's hard to not acknowledge that when we care so much, you know right and by saying I'm good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's not even space available to acknowledge that there's not any space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so right now, in this moment, I'm here with you and I'm feeling that connection and love and support and I'm also really, really worn out. My social battery is negative 10 percent and I have to go back to work tomorrow and there's just that mental like whiplash of having to prepare for daycare, drop off and all of that where I just don't feel like I can fully relax and recharge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Ever For a minute. I forgot it was Sunday.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:It's okay, but I was like that reality just hit me. You do have to go people again. Yeah, there's no break. No no.
Speaker 1:How about you?
Speaker 2:I have been incredibly overstimulated and am coming down from that, but equally, am looking to jump right into another week to make a change in how, like, my nervous system is like coping feeling between tonight and tomorrow when I start my week. So this is like the state that I'm gonna be in for a little while. I'm okay, but aware that like this isn't gonna be good if I can't kind of fully come down yeah being overstimulated.
Speaker 2:I feel like there's like different levels to it. But, yeah, like words were hard yesterday, so today is like the first day that like having conversations and being able to actually talk about how am I feeling and like what am I feeling, and be able to talk about other things just outside of daily like needs. So I mean I'm hanging in there and I feel like some listeners I think will, will get that. Yeah, but maybe some listeners who have less sensitive systems like maybe are like do not resonate with this at all and that's totally fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't think I realized this feeling for a long time and maybe would blame it on other things Getting sick, I'm just just off, I'm just tired but it is like a deeper, different thing altogether and it requires so many components for the actual reset.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that are very difficult in our modern world to actually attain. You're right.
Speaker 2:Like, like consistent routine and schedule and ability to like move my body and physical touch and unrushed scenarios. No last minute plans. No, not a lot of peopling Sleep Food. Yeah, yeah. So you know, knowing those things, I'm doing what I can and knowing those things, some of those things are out of my control.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, speaking out of control.
Speaker 1:Yeah, our episode is all about sleep and we're probably going to do more episodes than just one on sleep, because there's so many aspects of it that we can talk about but in our own personal experiences too.
Speaker 2:I think just being able to like have time to really talk about what this experience has been for both of us, because that I think there are people I know there are people who will resonate with what we've both experienced.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I'm really excited to talk about it more, because I think I've just been doing a lot more Reflecting and, in my own Experience so far, especially this last almost two months now, of what we've been going through that we're going to talk about, right, so yeah, here we go.
Speaker 2:Right, I want to hear about it, yeah, and I want you to share with others. I mean, maybe it's okay that it's been a few months now. Maybe there's been time to think about what is this? What do you do with this?
Speaker 1:Because it's been rough. It's been rough, so I will start off by framing that. I had a pretty lucky experience with sleep. Postpartum, like early postpartum, I had a very overly sleepy baby who I had to set alarms to wake up to feed, otherwise he would just sleep and putting him down was like a dream. So I was like, wow, okay, I just pulled the lucky card and babies and sleep, and then he turns one in April and then after that it starts to get like a little bit harder, right, like pushing bedtime a little bit later, a little more like how how is this going to go? And it was like bam, the week of summer solstice he just didn't go to sleep anymore, like I don't know if it just his awareness has grown, you know, with like object permanence and all of that, and just time away from us when he's at daycare and missing us daycare and missing us because he's not having as much of an issue for napping at daycare, but naps and bedtime at home are so challenging.
Speaker 1:We do the same routine. We do all the things that people are like are you doing this? Yeah, are you trying this? But what about? Like I'm doing that, yeah, yeah. And those people mean well and care a lot and thank you for being a part of our journey of Letting Me Complain.
Speaker 1:But it has been two months of well. I'll get into like what has changed in the last couple of weeks. But for the first month changed in the last couple weeks, but for the first month it was just a two-hour fight every night of like, wait, we'll go to this chair, we'll go outside, we'll go back to this chair, we'll lay down together, we'll swap with papa and it's his turn. We'll try this. And the level of screaming, no matter what we did was was so dysregulating. There were times where I would have to like run outside and try to reground myself.
Speaker 1:Now maybe it's a coincidence, maybe it's because of this this is also coinciding with the timing of going to my son's one-year checkup and speaking with our doctor, who I have no ill will towards. I very much respect her and appreciate her approach. In a lot of ways, however, she scared me about giving him a bottle. Still, and since we haven't been fortunate in having the ability to nurse me in August, I relied a lot on bottles for putting him to sleep and there was a little bit of fear in giving bottles right Oral development and all of this. I don't remember what it was, but I left that appointment thinking I have to wean them off bottles right now. Yeah, or I'm a bad mom.
Speaker 2:Were there any stipulations for fall?
Speaker 1:child care too. Yes, thank you for reminding me of that, it was also that. And then he's switching to a larger daycare facility in September and by then he needs to be on one nap and only can use a sippy cup to fall asleep. I remember that being a huge jump. Yes, that was also it too. So it was like these two things in our brains of making this change. And so we start slowly introducing the sippy cup, and then he weans from the bottle and now is having sippy cups at night, and I don't know if he's getting that like. He's not getting that sucking reflex, that oxytocin or anything anymore, and would just like have his bottle and then immediately just sit up and be like OK, what are we doing next? Yeah, instead of the nozzle in and I'm going to go out to slumberland now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that by I think you know I would text you like almost probably daily at that point, like I'm losing my mind, I can't do this, right, and I think at one point you even gently encouraged me to like go back to the bottle, right, if you thought like, yeah, do we? We did that? Yeah, and it didn't work. Yeah, and it's like you still have a little bottle, gets up in the dark and snuggles and then sits up right after, like what are we doing next? I'm certainly not going to sleep on you.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, this was nice, but yeah, so that also fell through. So that's also like this other thing where, like any other tool, was just starting to feel like okay, and also we're going to put this in within the big framework that I am not going to do any, any kind of sleep training. I'm just, you know, I completely respect and understand everyone has a different approach to sleep and I'm just, I just don't want to do it. I don't feel comfortable with leaving him when he's crying or doing anything of that nature. I really I'm trying to focus on long-term attachment and the things that I've been reading about.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of also where this is going to, where, you know, everyone is very respectful and understanding who's in my life, but there's just also this thing that I won't do you know right, well, and you just talked to about how, even when you are with him and he was screaming, yeah, like that was still really hard for your talked too about how, even when you are with him and he was screaming, yeah, like that was still really hard for your nervous system, yeah, and you were like with him, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So then you know, we're gearing up for this family vacation out west, and it's like maybe a week before, and both my husband and I are completely at our wits end, like you know, because you rely on that, maybe one hour before you go to bed, where your kids are down, and you finally just get like a little bit of space to maybe zone out or do whatever, take a shower we weren't getting any breaks, yeah, and every single night, like by the time he would finally be so exhausted he'd fall asleep. I would like, you know, rush to take a shower and then, like, get back in bed and then my husband would do the same, right, mm-hmm? So there was also just a complete depletion of our time together. Any kind of wrap-up time on our own, mm-hmm together, any kind of wrap-up time on our own. Like I still feel sick at the thought of just trying to catch up on housework because it just everything was falling behind.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So anyway, we get into this week before this trip and we realize, you know, the only way he was falling asleep for napping was the stroller or the car seat. So so now we're going to start doing that at bedtime, because we're out of ideas and we're out of energy and it starts to work like a charm. Eight o'clock, put him in his car seat, take him for a 10-minute drive and he's out, and then we transfer him to the crib, we get to have our hour or two and then typically he doesn't really wake up. Sometimes he does, and then we all go and co-sleep together.
Speaker 1:It was starting to like be this little bit of a light right of like oh okay, we've got this, but then guess what happened? What? Well, I think we've talked about this a lot on our podcast, but the whole like internal shaming. Oh yeah, we're bad parents, I'm a bad mom, came up, uh-huh. So then I start to question everything and think, well, I'm a terrible mother because I can't get my baby to sleep and I don't know him well enough to do anything besides like this super ultra crutch of driving him every night yeah, until he falls asleep, right.
Speaker 1:So then we're on this family vacation and everyone's very supportive and sweet about it, and it's like going out for a nightly drive yeah, in our rental car taking the sea and yeah, so that also becomes its own form of kind of depleting, like having to do this extra drive at night and I really started to panic that like I'm destroying his ability to fall asleep by relying on being in motion in a car. Like what if you only start to fall asleep ever, you know still like this looming starting? This new daycare is out there. So, yeah, I did ask my sister who belongs to you've heard of Mama Strong, right, the workout app. They also have like a really supportive community where you can post stuff. So she's like how about I post about this and I'll see what other moms say?
Speaker 1:And she read me some of their things that they wrote in response to it and it has really helped me reflect more, even just kind of understanding. Why do I immediately go to these judgments about myself and where I'm at and a few of the moms are, like you know, have 18 year olds and are like, oh, I had that, that was a phase, yeah, and now I look back on it fondly, of like driving through cornfields with my son right night and it will be okay, it will get better. So it was. It was sweet to have some of that feedback and but I thought one thing that you would appreciate is the person, courtney, who runs mama strong, wrote in and was like oh, sleep, the hot topic that no one will want to talk about besides, like just as much as religion and politics, their children sleep, right, like you named it yeah it's, it's like so hard and I think like, well, you know, in some ways you're just.
Speaker 2:You just told me an entire story of how you navigated a huge issue with sleep and you learned what worked for him and you did it and you helped him get what he needed. And you guys got what you needed. And you still feel shame about it. Yeah, you figured it out. Yeah, you met his need. He needed help to fall asleep. You did every single thing you could think of, short of cry it out, which was not going to be a thing for you, to the point where you were like done, like there was nothing else you could do. Everything was kind of suffering, and you figured something out and it was successful and it was working for you and for him. And now the guilt and shame creeps in. Yeah, but like you did it, like in the realm of like good parenting, like you solved the puzzle, even if it's a phase, and you don't like how the solution looked.
Speaker 1:It's still not enough. No, because it's not what I have, apparently, in my brain. Probably my husband too is like this is how a baby or a toddler goes to sleep, and so therefore, we're failing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, it turns out there's a, there's a reddit thread. Oh, reddit, and this kind of made me feel good too, because I I'm pretty sure I just googled the entire like why won't my 15 month old go to sleep without the car seat or the stroller, right? And there's like a reddit thread and it was like pointing out that there are even moms out there with, you know, very new toddlers who actually won't, even they won't even transfer from the stroller or the car seat to the crib, like they have to sleep only in that, and so that was also eye-opening of like. Okay, this has been challenging, and also people are dealing with struggles beyond what I even think I have capacity for. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:I think it's really hard to reconcile what reality can be with the stories we've told ourselves, the things that we've seen and the things we don't realize that we've internalized. So, yeah, the idea of like you telling me, like we've had a lot of conversations about sleep that have not been recorded, okay, and how, like you and I both believe that sleep is more like a biological function, it isn't a skill to be taught, but you just told me you feel like that I still have. He's learning, yeah, he's learning a bad habit that's so true.
Speaker 1:It's still like such a deeply embedded, internalized belief.
Speaker 2:So I was going to ask you, like in that moment, like, well, wait, do you believe Is this a skill or is it? Is it a biological, whatever thing that we do, and I don't know. I mean I feel like if it was a skill that you can teach someone all the things you already did would have. I mean, you gave it time, you were consistent with those things, you tried a thousand things, like if he he's smart, he's learning new things all the time right now. Yeah, I truly believe if it was something you could teach somebody, it wouldn't involve like manic screaming and it would be successful, because during this time I'm sure you can think of different words he's learned different things, started walking, exactly. So like very capable of learning things right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, I remember one distinct night when I was kind of at my wits end and I texted you and you were so validating, supportive and also shared that I can't remember which kid it was, but that you just stopped trying to do the sleep routine and just let them play until they showed signs of tired, no matter what time it was. Yeah, we started doing that so that we could stop doing the whole fight until 10 or 11 pm and it at least helped us soften and relax a little. Right, just, I'm sure it helped him too, but it was also just for us to, for you putting all this intense pressure of bedtime. Like you know, it's the first question a doctor asks what time does he go to bed? Right, I don't know. Right when he's tired. Like I would love for it to be 730 every night, but that's just not my baby, no, and for sure not right now.
Speaker 2:And I, yeah, I really was like, oh, because when bedtime is a fight, the last thing you want is to have that be the last memory of their day.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is to have it be like this kind of conflict challenge and that's the last thing you want. To go to bed after fighting for two hours to get them down and now, like everybody's just frazzled, and now you're just going gonna wake up the next morning like, okay, ready to start the day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't fully recover from that and it was cumulative, it's been yeah every time.
Speaker 2:So when we talked before about like the dread of bedtime, it's like when there are some real sleep issues like this, the the dread's like unreal. Like it'll be dinnertime and I'm already like trying to prepare, but like what do you do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do you do to prepare?
Speaker 2:Somehow say, like I'm not going to do bedtime and like the other person's going to do it, Because you know that's not going to work. They can't do two straight hours of like a battle Right, at least a battle right. At least they need mom, yes, so, like you know it's not gonna work. You are the person and it's probably gonna take two hours, no matter what in this particular phase. Why make it a fight? Yeah, I mean, there's still that internal dread of like they're not sleeping. I wish they were sleeping and I'm never gonna get a minute to myself.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is still there, yes, but.
Speaker 1:But letting go, yeah, of the. This has to happen.
Speaker 2:In this way? Yeah, yeah. Why do we hold on to that, this, this illusion of power in relationships with our children?
Speaker 1:Yeah, think what you're saying and reminding me of framing it like we have been very focused in the way we mother on and like, have connected on this in a very strong way around sleep being a biological need and function and something that is also shared through our brains and nervous systems, as their moms and our bodies provide a lot of that comfort and attachment. And I mean I just recently read a book all about how self-soothing is a myth. Oh yeah, self-soothing is a myth, and I don't want to say these things as a judgment, because if somebody is practicing that and trying to teach their child how to sleep in that approach, you do your thing.
Speaker 2:And we'll probably have an entire episode dedicated to some of these things and we are able to formulate our own thoughts more cohesively, because we've had so many conversations about this and it comes up a bit even in my sleep story stuff, but it's a whole, it's a whole thing and we fully know that there are listeners out there who may have had immense success with sleep training yeah and I'm not saying that you didn't experience that or anything.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:But we can also understand how our children regulate.
Speaker 1:And their own unique way of regulating yeah.
Speaker 1:Right and right now. This whole summer what I'm learning is that at least my son is very much regulating through play and if he isn't fully tired yet he needs to keep moving. He's a very mobile little guy and if I try to hold him even beyond like one second of what he wants for a snuggle, like he'll scream. Like one second of what he wants to for a snuggle, like he'll scream. And so I'm not gonna force that like that or I'm not gonna put like put him somewhere where he just needs to stay put and expect him to like lay down. Yeah, I'm going to let him wander around and keep moving his body right.
Speaker 1:And I understand where different schools of thought come in like nope, just put them back and say it's bedtime and all this stuff. Like I read all these different yeah, when I was like what is going on? What am I doing wrong? But I just don't think the question what am I doing wrong is even fair, no, right, like those mama strong moms were the ones, along with my sister and you and other really supportive moms, were just saying like is it really that you're doing something wrong, right, or is this just your child? And where he's at right now?
Speaker 2:Yes, and so shifting what are you doing or not doing to what do they need and how can you have what you need in order to give them what they need. We don't live in a society that looks at any childhood, if you want to call it behavioral or just neurological need. We don't have a society that supports parents in meeting their children's needs. A lot of that is still viewed as like coddling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, spoiling yep and I I think, even if we can make that separation in our brains, it's still. There's still the weight of that and in the hard moments when we do eventually ask ourselves that question like what am I doing wrong, is this right? Because sometimes it's still laborious.
Speaker 1:Well, and even the question like hearing you say it again just means that someone else is the expert. Someone else out there is the expert of telling you what you're doing wrong, right, for me it was the doctor, or like him going to a new daycare and being told, like your son doesn't fall asleep on his own, but they're not the experts of our children, no, and they have guidelines and research and all of these things that can inform. But I think, just coming back to like, we know our child, yeah, and we need to listen to that more and to our instincts, yeah, and trust them without like, oh, am I, am I destroying my son's sleep health for the rest of his life because he just pens on a car ride, right?
Speaker 2:now, or are you helping him because he's getting sleep?
Speaker 1:right and like now we say a car ride, and he gets really excited and grabs his favorite stuffy and it's less stressful for you, it's less stressful for him. You solved the puzzle for now for now, and it's going to be a completely different puzzle, I'm sure, in a few months right, you may.
Speaker 2:You may decide this isn't sustainable at some point, or you choose to subtly change something winter will happen.
Speaker 1:Things will change, yeah, and we won't be in this place, right?
Speaker 2:right, yeah, yeah, I just yeah hold so much love for you because I've been in sleep things and I know those questions and the guilt and the dread of having people ask.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think if Maybe we've talked about this before I can't remember but like if we could just do away with how is he sleeping? How is she sleeping? Yeah, like I don't think that is a helpful question.
Speaker 2:I was talking to another mom recently and we were actually talking about sleep and we were talking about the comments and things. And one of the other things that I really dread people saying is like oh, you'll miss this, oh yeah, and in that context I was like I wish people would actually just say what they meant. Yeah, so in that sleep question, how are they sleeping? Yes, I don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, before I forget, are you going to be able to remember what you're going to say? Hopefully. Okay, I just have to. No, do it. I'm totally interrupting you. But, like that happened on steroids, the other day, I was putting my son into the car and he was screaming because he was so overtired and I don't even remember where we were. It was a parking lot of a store or something, and it was a very difficult moment and I was very stressed out and a man walked by and goes oh, you're gonna miss this someday no what did you do?
Speaker 1:I was like, excuse me, I'm like who are you? And now I'm supposed to like make you feel good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the fact that this is hard and you're witnessing it and you want to rush me through it.
Speaker 2:And you're feeling nostalgic and you need attention now and I'm just trying to help my little guy Like oh, I'm sorry, I had to add that, no, but that's the thing I wish in that moment, people who say those things would actually just say what they meant, because most of the time, I don't actually think they mean that you're going to miss this very particular moment. Yeah, I don't think they actually care about the answer of are they sleeping or aren't they sleeping. What are you actually wondering? Yeah, ask me that, if you care that I'm getting sleep. Ask are you getting sleep? Yes, I'm concerned about you. Yeah, or, like I'm really right, I'm invested in how you're doing. Yeah, don't ask how my kids are sleeping, though, because we all know they're not that question makes me want to cry the thought of someone actually caring so much and going.
Speaker 1:I'm invested in how you're doing, are you sleeping? And what. I would just if someone just like came genuinely asking that I would become a puddle.
Speaker 2:yeah, right, and what if all these people asking like, oh, are your kids sleeping? What if they actually like mean that and we're missing out on real connection with people because they don't know how to ask? Yeah, if you're just trying to fill the silence and trying to ask something about me and my kids, for the love of god, don't ever ask me if mine are sleeping. Mine are 11, 8 and 4 and the answer is no. We are not sleeping. At our house, it is a circus array of various sleep arrangements. Any given night, we aren't sleeping, but it certainly looks better than it used to. And if you care about if I'm rested, I would love to know that, because the answer is no and I can give you my Venmo for coffee at any point. So could any other mom? Yes, but ask us what you really want to know. Right, are you asking like? Is sleep hard for you? I remember sleep being hard for us.
Speaker 1:That's a completely different question. That's a completely different question with a completely different I feel invited.
Speaker 2:I feel invited to share my struggles and I don't feel like you are going to jump down my throat with tools that work for you. I don't give a f what worked for you in the nicest way possible, right?
Speaker 1:I didn't ask Because that also usually happened 30 years ago. And how do you ask, right?
Speaker 2:And I probably already tried it so many times in a row and it didn't work. So ask what you actually want to ask. If you care about the mom, lead with that. If you're just ready to give advice because you had a really great sleep experience, don't, don't just maybe go start your own podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, sleep. What else do you want to add about your? Because you're so much further into all things sleep with children. So, because this is definitely my first, like big wake up call this thing of like we are really students of our kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're right, research, literature, books, expert opinion those things can inform and all of our kids are so unique and I'm still learning what that means for us. And for sleep, it's probably been the most constant source of like humble soup because I don't have control over my kids' sleep and I still don't know if they're going to sleep through the night and I can pretty much bank that somebody won't and to just sort of have that constant realization that like I can know a lot of stuff and manage the house the way I manage everything, but like I'm not in control if they sleep through the night or not. I'm not in control for how long it takes them to fall asleep. And those needs matter just as much as their daytime needs matter. Yes, needs matter just as much as their daytime needs matter. Yes, and I hate it because it's so hard and I don't have the energy for it by the end of the day, but I have to have the energy for it because those nighttime needs matter just as much as the daytime needs.
Speaker 2:And I I'm not failing, and my kids aren't failing. If they still need support. They need support during the day, like why did we all agree at some point to be like oh yeah, at six months old all those nighttime needs disappear and if they're not sleeping through the night there's something wrong. Like but during the day they even need help sitting up. I'm sorry, but you just can't convince me otherwise. My kids still need support during the day. They're cold, they can't figure out their covers, they got scared. They just aren't sleeping well, like the list could go on.
Speaker 2:I value their nighttime support needs just as much as I value the daytime needs I love that so much I I wish we lived in a society that helped me meet them more easily, and I've had to make a lot of life changes to somewhat help me do that.
Speaker 1:But then I even just saw what you're doing as a value, right, as something you're doing has value to it. It's not you're like going against the grain.
Speaker 2:By doing this Randomly, I have posted on social media and giving a little bit of a rundown of what my night looked like, and I've started to call it nighttime nurturing instead of wake-ups.
Speaker 1:Nurturing.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to coin that. I'm sure I saw that somewhere. Yeah, I couldn't tell you where or how I don't know. But when you start viewing it like that and you start valuing the nighttime needs as much as the daytime needs, and you start valuing your own work at night as much as you see your own work during the day, it can change what it means to you to wake up at night. That stuff is still there, like the random internalized beliefs we didn't know we had. Like that stuff still comes up. But it's a lot easier to move through when you're like no, I care that they woke up and they were calling for me. I care that they had a really hard time falling asleep and I was the only one that could help them. Yeah, do I want it to be this way?
Speaker 1:No, Am I doing?
Speaker 2:okay with it? No, right, but I'm doing it and I value this work, and when I have made those posts, there are a lot of moms responding to my stories.
Speaker 1:It's a really beautiful reframe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm really hoping it's not viewed as like this toxic positivity, no Like, because this isn't, it's not positive to me in the optimistic thing like this is actually just kind of giving a little bit of hope to the like.
Speaker 1:It's not about every night going forward now. You just are a nurturer or overly positive, toxic, optimistic view. It's just going tonight I'm going to nurture my kid through whatever they need, just like I do during the day, and just meeting them where they're at Centering. That, yeah, it's not like anything you do exactly is changed from what you did earlier. It's just hopefully helping you mentally and physically and spiritually get through it.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think you know if my kids, like school year last year, would go to bed around 7, 730. And they'd wake up somewhere around like 630. So it's like 11 hours of the day.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I show up for them in those 11 hours too. Yeah, and sometimes it's a lot, you know, and sometimes it's maybe once or not at all, but I I wish more parents were seen for all the work they do at night yeah and not shamed. Shamed for it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not made to believe that their kids are there's something wrong or that they are coddling or enabling somebody's like they're not sleeping through the night. Yeah, no, and I'm. Do you sleep through the night? Yeah, like I'm showing up for them. I just want to. This is hard work.
Speaker 1:I want to ask do you sleep through the night? Yeah, do you ever. I get up once or twice, right, I think that's pretty normal. It's actually rare, I think, for someone to sleep through the night. So why do we put that on a child and a toddler and a baby Right? Their biological rhythms are even faster.
Speaker 2:And we can still value sleep and sleep quality, yeah, and believe that we need to meet our kids needs at night, or just even believe that they have needs at night yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm starting. Yeah, I appreciate what you said about it being humble soup and just like continuously growing with how much like this is almost half of their daily life? Yeah, their sleep needs.
Speaker 2:And it's like this hurry up and go to sleep disconnect thing. Yeah, and I'm sorry, but my kids are constantly connected. Yeah, and I'm sorry, but my kids are constantly connected. They are very much like hands-on. Like just on this recent trip, my sister-in-law was like her love language must be like hands-on, like affection, because she was just like constantly and I'm like, yeah, all of mine are really kind of like this. How they are wired doesn't just turn off at night. This is half their day and if I look at how I nurture them through the day, it's really not very different from how I nurture them at night. I think some kids are wired differently and they don't have the same. Some kids are wired differently and they don't have the same nervous system. They don't have the same kind of support needs in general and I don't doubt that some random sleep training at the right time just changed it. Yeah, I don't argue that it worked for them.
Speaker 3:It didn't work for mine and I didn't fail.
Speaker 2:I can say that now, but it took me a long time to feel like I was okay with that, you know, yeah, but if I look at their day, the 12 hours they're awake with me or with anybody, the support needs are there and they look pretty similar to what we have to do at night. Is that surprising, you know? So he, your son, needs to move and groove, at least right now, and he's learning some things.
Speaker 1:It's like well, and the second we walk into a dark room, he's going to start crying. Well, we're going to walk out of that room. Yeah, because if he's crying, he's telling me something doesn't feel right, right, and if you're not trying to manipulate me, he's not trying to, like, push boundaries. He has a brain that is in a feeling state at this age, that is just communicating something feels upsetting, right, and I'm not ready for this environment. Can we go back to the other room?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, I just I'm really appreciating what we're talking about and I hope people listening are hearing this whole, like you know, recognizing how deeply internalized these things are, because I wasn't even realizing that I had gone back to like a totally different system of understanding this without realizing it, that I had stepped back into this black and white box. Yeah, I didn't even know anything about before becoming a mom and probably asked that question to anyone I knew.
Speaker 2:Yeah, How's your baby sleeping? Kind of.
Speaker 1:I just like that. I don't want to tell.
Speaker 2:We know better, so we do better.
Speaker 1:Sorry, anyone I talk to about having a baby. Oh yeah, what a learning experience. They really are our teachers, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't always love it. No, I'd love if they just like you know, you just lay them down and you're like, hey, good night, turn the light off and you don't see them again.
Speaker 1:But like that's not reality and they are teaching us when we have to work through all the feelings we have and the unmet expectations and and if that is reality for someone like I do know a couple of moms who have a much easier time with bedtime and they might have done some sleep training or their own method or whatever. Yeah, like I know that they're facing that same lesson in a different way with their child. Yeah, it's not just. This is just about sleep.
Speaker 2:No, this is about us learning about our children's unique needs and learning what it means to meet them, and and learning about ourselves in the process and learning about how to like shed like the shoulds of societal expectations and how to navigate really hard things. This is just growth. We're just happen to experience it and it's uncomfortable. Yeah, and it's not. We don't have an end date yeah it doesn't go the way we think. We love to have growth be like packaged up and neat and like quick.
Speaker 1:I think that, like talking through this now, I'm realizing too one of the reasons I wrote like I went with my sister's suggestion and did the mama strong community board. I was like I wasn't looking for. Here's what I tried and it worked for me and you should do this course or any of that stuff. It was just to feel more seen. To hear like a few different, diverse voices of this is really hard and when you're in it, stop judging yourself as much as you can. Like. I totally have this running thing in my head of I'm a bad mom because I have to drive my baby to fall asleep and I need to keep working on that and growing with that Because, logically in that part of my brain, I know I'm a good mom and I love my son so much and we all like it's not about that, it's just I need to get more curious about why that's such a big part. Yeah, it sounds like you've been able to really get to know that part of you. Yeah, a lot more over the years.
Speaker 2:I know, I think you know it shows up in sleep stuff because that's such a charged topic and when I'm just all tired. Yeah, but it also shows up elsewhere too, so I think I've had a lot of lessons in 11 years of being able to get to this point, and it isn't only in the sleep world that that growth happened. Yeah, but it's not quick. You know, like 11 years isn't a short amount of time to sort of daily be faced with some sort of humbling like, oh yeah, I'm really not in control here.
Speaker 2:Or how I thought this was going to look is not how it actually looks and it's not really going to look that way.
Speaker 1:And to be okay with that. Yeah, to be okay with it not being what we think should be okay.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Ugh, yeah, well, I'm glad we talked about this. I don't know if you have anything else to add, but I'm glad we talked about it too, I think, and like texting for two months.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's do that episode on what's happening with sleep right now.
Speaker 2:Right To verbally process it. Yeah, it's just yeah. We came to some good conclusions.
Speaker 1:And I think, just if any listeners are still hanging on right now, before we close, we have been putting out a call for more input, like we'd love to hear from you listeners If you want to send us emails about your experiences when you listen to this and how it's resonating with you, or if you want to send a voice note by email, like, with your permission, we could even share those in future episodes. I just really hope that the you know, and also no pressure if you just want to listen yeah, you don't even have to say your name yeah in it or not share at all.
Speaker 1:It's fine, but just like right. I think you know hearing from more and more moms in this nature of like where are you at in this season of life? How is? How are you doing with sleeping? Are you getting your needs met? Probably not, but are you hopefully finding some ways to grow with this challenge?
Speaker 2:right and I want ultimately you to know that, like we do see, we want to see you the nurturing you're doing at nighttime yeah and we don't think you're failing by meeting needs or, you know, by having sleep look different than what you thought or what society says it should look like, at whatever stage of life you're in. I think it's one thing to listen to something and feel validated and it's another thing to engage in conversation around some of this really hard stuff, and we're just opening up the door to be able to have that.
Speaker 1:And two resources just popped in my head, if you were listening, and really connected with the theme around nurturing at night. There is someone's account named Goodnight Moonchild and she actually has shirts that say women in their power or mothers in their power. Maybe one of the two nurture at night. Oh, really, yeah, oh, that's awesome, yeah, so she's all about nurturing at night. And then there's a really wonderful book that I would recommend called the Nurture Revolution by Dr Greer Kirschenbaum, and we'll put the link in the show notes by Dr Greer Kirschenbaum and we'll put the link in the show notes. But she goes through. She dispels all the myths around you're spoiling your baby.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that you can teach your baby how to self-soothe and sleep, and then dives into the neuroscience of how we are starting to understand more of what babies and children's brains need to sleep and function. Cool, yeah, well, thanks, kirsten. Thanks for sharing.
Speaker 3:Mama, you belong, mama, you are seen. We are connected like the mother trees. Mama, you belong. Mama, you are seen. Strong as the mountain and gentle as the stream Flowing underneath and throughout the stories of our lives. Centering each other so families can thrive. Centering each other so families can thrive. Thanks for listening. We hope you feel seen and thrive.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening. We hope you feel seen. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with other mamas. Subscribing to our podcast and leaving us a review is one of the best ways for other people to find us. So if you enjoy what you are hearing or if it resonates with you, please subscribe and leave us a review. It would mean a lot. You can find me, kirsten, at empowerorthoandpelvichealthcom, or on Instagram at kirstendemareadpt.
Speaker 1:And you can find me, molly, through my music at Sister Viri on Bandcamp or other streaming platforms, or email us if you have questions, ideas or just want to connect at mamayoubelong at gmailcom. We will see you next time.