Mother Rage and Grief: Protecting Our Kids in Uncertain Times

We sit with the dissonance of parenting during a state crackdown in Minnesota, holding mother rage and grief while trying to protect childhood for our children. Stories from Minneapolis, a terrifying night terror, and our feelings as mothers.

• naming the split between normal routines and escalating state force
• how algorithms, media gaps and proximity shape what we know
• whiteness, safety as illusion and why change is allowed
• anger as data, grief underneath and redirecting hate into love and protection
• night terrors explained, patterns, airway and sleep hygiene links
• nervous system care through movement and community support
• centering children’s experiences and mutual aid
• what it means to keep going without normalizing harm

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Star Tribune Article about changing your mind

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Transcript

Welcome And Why We’re Here

SPEAKER_05 0:01

Hi, I'm Kirsten. I'm a mom of three. I'm a physical therapist and a birth doula.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

And I'm Molly, a mental health therapist specializing in trauma, a mom of one, and a singer and songwriter. We started Mama You Belong to help moms feel seen who are in the thick of it because we're in the thick of it. We certainly don't have all the answers, but we're gonna talk about it and keep unfolding all of the things that it means to be a mom in this era. So thanks for being here. We hope you feel seen.

unknown 0:45

Mamma, you belong.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Mama, you are seen. We are connected like the mother trees. Mamma, you belong. Mamma you are seen strong as the Mountain and gentle as the stream flowing underneath and throughout the stories of our lives. Centering each other so families can thrive. Centering each other so families can thrive.

New Space, Heavy Mood

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Hi Kirsten. Hi Wally. We're in your new space.

Minnesota In Crisis

SPEAKER_02 1:40

We are in my new space. It feels good. We're in the nurture collective in Duluth on the East Hillside. It feels real good in here. It does. You all bring such like soft grounding energy into this space. I'm really excited for you. Yeah. Yeah, it feels good. So are we just gonna talk about how terrible everything is or what are we gonna do today? Yeah. Cause it's pretty bad. It's really bad. And I mean, we're not in Minneapolis, but we have loved ones down there and and we care about what's happening. So we gotta we gotta process this because this is not normal and it's not okay. And we need to really speak to what it's like being a mom right now.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Parenting While The State Escalates

SPEAKER_05 2:37

Yesterday we were at a basketball tournament in Grand Rapids, which for those who aren't super familiar with Minnesota is like an hour and a half, kind of like west northwest of Duluth. And it was so bizarre because I have people I'm texting in the Minneapolis area who are like, I don't know, I haven't seen any ice agents today. I know what's happening, just you know, a few miles from me. We're safe right now. And then I'm sitting at a basketball game and there is no acknowledgement. There's no conversation among parents about this. There is no, there's nothing. And I'm like, is are we in an all alternate reality right now? Like, on one hand, I don't want my children to realize how significant this is. And I want I don't want their life to stop.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:38

But at what point do we say, like, okay, but life isn't normal? Collectively, these things need to pause until our state is no longer under siege.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:50

Like, I don't know where that line is.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:54

But is it when the insurrection act is invoked? Is it when the National Guard is truly deployed and like active doing things? Like, at what point do we cease our usual customary activities? Right. In r out of like respect and acknowledgement. But like there wasn't, it wasn't no words were uttered whatsoever.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

And I was like, I don't know how to do both of these things at the same time. I don't either.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

And it feels even more dystopian than things have felt before when horrible things are happening, where it's like things as usual should not be happening. Like I hear you, it's you want to have your kids just have a safe, protected childhood.

SPEAKER_05 4:49

And yeah, like this isn't their fault.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

I don't expect them to be able to do that. That shouldn't impact them. They shouldn't have to process trauma while it's happening on the collective.

SPEAKER_05 4:56

It's hard enough as a adult who feels somewhat connected to like somewhat understanding for us to even really process what's happening. Like, no, I don't want them in the midst of that or have their lives radically change. But at what point is is us living our usual customary life enabling this to continue to happen?

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

And I think that like I keep seeing some posts from friends in Minneapolis, and they're like, people outside of Minnesota, what do you know is happening? Like, what are you reading about or seeing, or are you just like not even aware of how bad things are here? It's like they're now pleading with people to understand just how bad things are.

SPEAKER_05 5:41

And it's hard to know because like mainstream media, I mean, I don't like watch the news. I listen to NPR. Yeah. But it's also so much Minnesota specific, like segments and things, that I don't know what's actually like our algorithm feeds us stuff. I don't know what other people, you know, in Virginia or Indiana. Like, I don't know what people know.

Sleeplessness And Fear

SPEAKER_02 6:05

I think it depends on what where you get information from. Because like I have some really beloved family members, my mom's sisters, so my aunts, and they're, you know, North Carolina and Washington, but they grew up in Minnesota, so they're like deeply tracking everything. They're absolutely unmoored by Renee Good's murder and reaching out and checking in on us and being really tied in to the day-to-day collective trauma. But that feels abnormal. Yeah. No one else really is doing that. You know, like a couple friends from far away, but I don't think the masses are really aware. No. I mean, look at the lies that are coming out of the administration. Look at the way so many news organizations bow to them.

SPEAKER_05 7:01

I feel like we, and this is an assumption, but I feel like we maybe collectively Minnesotans are being viewed as being dramatic. Yeah.

Stories Of ICE And Terror

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Well, it's not being dramatic. The reason I have the worst legs under my eyes ever today is I just couldn't sleep last night. I could not fall asleep, my husband either. Like we were just staying up together talking about everything after our son was asleep. And then right before we were gonna go to bed, I opened my phone and I saw Star Tribune shared that a infantry of the army in Alaska has been put on alert for deployment to Minnesota. Yeah. And they are trained for Arctic warfare. So they're ready. They're on alert to be deployed, possibly. And it's like, I want to say 1,500 troops from the army. So we're not being dramatic. No, this is terrifying. There's terror in this situation. Like we feel it in Duluth slightly. I mean, I keep hearing some reports of ice up here of activity. Obviously, nothing like what they're doing with going to daycares and schools and kidnapping people out of their cars off the streets and leaving babies in the backseat.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

You know, there's a six-month-old baby in the ICU right now who got tear gassed in the car with the family driving home from basketball practice. Right. And got caught in the middle of clash.

SPEAKER_05 8:45

Like they were driving away. Yeah. My sister lives in Bloomington, and they go to a Spanish immersion daycare in a Spanish immersion elementary school. And I would say the majority of days it's been up in the air as to like if her children are going. Sometimes I'd talk to her in this last week and she's like, we're all home today. Two weeks ago, a couple of the daycare providers were kidnapped. They've had parents standing guard at the door. They have group chats of between the daycare families of like ICE, where are they? And it's this balance between like, don't spread fear, don't get people really worked up, but we also do need to know the truth of like, where are they? And do we need to do something different? They're they're driving the some of the daycare providers home because then they don't need to take public transportation or wait at bus stops.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Like it's like this is the reality.

SPEAKER_05 9:52

And it it reminds me of parenting in COVID, which was different, but equally like similar from a nervous system perspective. And the unknown and trying to balance like how long do we do this for? Work, school, your risk assessment. It feels like that. Where sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, why can't I stop thinking about this?

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Mm-hmm.

COVID Echoes In Our Bodies

SPEAKER_05 10:22

Trying to sort of gaslight myself. It's fine. It can't be that bad. But deep down knowing it is that bad and people just aren't really listening to me.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:35

They don't want it to be that bad. So they're sort of ignoring or avoiding. But ultimately, it I don't like how long? Okay, so you keep your kids home because it feels unsafe to send them to school or daycare. You've heard reports about ICE being in certain places. You don't know if you can validate it. So we'll be home today. How long is that sustainable? That constant risk assessment. Should we go here? What are my kids gonna see? What are they gonna hear? Do I stand up? Do I go to this protest? Do I stay home? So many decisions feel so heavy. And we have no clue how long this is. Is this our reality now? Mm-hmm. Okay, so if Waltz deploys the National Guard and they do their thing, and then the insurrection act is w whatever the verb is enacted. Yeah. Yeah. And Alaskan military troops come and are now stationed here doing whatever they're going to do. How long is that?

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 11:48

And so how how do we work? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Well, and the key differences, right? COVID is the fear of the virus, this uncontrollable thing, besides what we can do to prevent it and what's within our control. And in this situation, it's completely fabricated unnecessary escalation of force from the Trump administration. It is terror and all through masked agents who won't show their faces, who are complete cowards carrying automatic weapons.

SPEAKER_05 12:27

And poisonous gas deploying these things.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Warfare like indiscriminately. Yeah.

Whiteness, Safety, And Illusion

SPEAKER_05 12:34

Whenever they feel potentially threatened by people who aren't armed, who are asking questions, who will are getting around. Detaining and arresting people. Yeah. So there's this level of terror that absolutely like this and COVID are are not the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

No, but I see what you mean about the nervous system standpoint. I'm just like thinking about it because I'm realizing how I'm like thinking back to how that felt during COVID. But there's a different kind of terror when it's coming from other human beings who just are out to harm. And I I also wanted to back up because we're talking about like what does everyone else across the country think or know? And I think we're speaking from a very white standpoint of like other what do other white people think about all of this? Because I'm guarantee you this is what black and brown people have been feeling and facing forever. And it's been escalating slowly and slowly ever since Trump was elected the first time. I mean, do you remember back in the beginning of his first term when all of the outrage about finding out kids were in cages? Yeah. Back in what was that? I mean, this is 10 years ago, right? Yeah. So, or nine. And we were all completely overcome with outrage and like, what do we do? These kids are in cages. Has that changed? Has that stopped? No. Did Biden stop that? No, we've been detaining and holding people who have been trying to come here to live a better life and to protect their families. Like we've been doing that forever. But it's escalating and getting worse. And now I've just read that there's something like 70,000 people in detainment in the US. And how many of those are kids? How many like, and so yeah, just wanted to like speak to the the fact that it's it's white people who right now have a very clear choice that they can keep ignoring what's happening and living in their bubble and just pretending like it doesn't affect them.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

And for the people who paid attention to Renee Good's murder, it's a very clear threshold of like if we choose to stand up, speak up, like we lose that whiteness bubble, that like protection that so many people are are choosing to continue to live in.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

And I think the reason our nervous systems are so activated is because we know it's wrong, but we're scared. We're scared of what could happen to our families. Right.

Changing Your Mind Is Allowed

SPEAKER_05 15:24

It's this realization that like that safety was an illusion. It's always been an illusion. And it's only because of proximity to the power. Yeah. And black and brown people have known forever what fascism feels like because they live it. We just are under the illusion that it doesn't exist because it doesn't exist for us, or at least it didn't until now.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

It's been every like un whatever you call it, like just being pulled over for drying black. Right. It always existed for it. If it always existed, and now we feel that in our bodies because of Renee Good, who, in my opinion, is a martyr, right? Like an absolute martyr. Right. She was talking calmly. Her last words were, I'm not mad at you to the agent, right? Like she did nothing to deserve this. And I also feel like she was targeted because she was queer. She was there with her very butch-looking wife, right? And they were out doing constitutional observing legally. Yeah. So, you know, my my hope when I was driving in to see you when we were going to talk about this was just to think about like, what if there's a mom who finds this podcast who has a husband who believes what the administration is saying? But what if there's a mom out there who feels alone and doesn't know who to turn to? And to hear like that there are other moms who are this scared, but who also see that this is wrong and it's not okay and this is not normal.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

And so that was my hope. I was like, what if there's even one person who listens to this who we can help like feel seen? And of course, to all the other moms listening who already know how bad this is.

Clients In Crisis And Media Noise

SPEAKER_05 17:17

The it it brings up like the you have you're facing the systems that allow this to occur on smaller levels all the time. And for those moms to have potentially identified this, like discrepancy, and see the harm and then be surrounded by people who are mocking it, downplaying it, gaslighting her or others who bring it up. Yeah. It it it's has to be such a hard place to be. And like we do see you because we don't think you're overreacting. We think your fears are very valid. Yeah. Even if you're not living in the Minneapolis area, this is a really big deal. And the reasons that Molly stated is like why this is so different than maybe some other scenarios because it is real human beings like serving as true threats.

SPEAKER_04 18:32

Yeah.

unknown 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:34

And she was a mother. Right. And it brings up questions of like what world do we live in? What world are we raising our children in? What are we supposed to do? Like, what is our civil responsibility here? What is our responsibility to our family?

SPEAKER_02 18:51

There's a uh another, I'm really a fan of the Star Tribune right now. Because they're actually like really covering good a lot of what's happening, at least from what I can tell. So I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_05 19:05

But I don't even get a subscription. I'm like not gonna be the authority on what is good journalism.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Same. But I wanted to share a little, I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but we'll put a link in the show notes. But there's this really beautiful, it must be an op-ed titled, It's okay to change what you support. Let's run this through at low stakes. At some point in your life, you probably stopped eating a cereal you once enjoyed. Not because someone yelled at you, not because it was suddenly illegal. You just learned something new. Maybe you read the nutrition label. Maybe your body stopped feeling great afterward. Maybe you watched what it did to someone else and thought, huh, that doesn't sit right with me anymore. So you changed your mind about cereal quietly without a news release. This is a normal part of being an adult. Changing your mind doesn't have to be some kind of moral failure. As if once you've poured a bowl, you were required to finish the Box for the rest of your life. It goes on and on. It's so good, right? Just making these comparisons of like, this is what being an adult is changing your mind, learning something new, adapting, going, oh, that was that was like my bad. I shouldn't have believed that all the this time. And now I realize it's not okay. It's not healthy. It's not normal.

Mother Rage And Nervous Systems

SPEAKER_05 20:24

Or that it's it's truly not in alignment with me and my values. Yeah. To just be like, I'm so uncomfortable with that. And to see that you're not by changing your mind about something, whether it's believing in a certain system, whether it's seeing the harm done by a specific person or people group or belief system, like you don't have to throw out every other existing belief practice and an like worldview to change your mind about one of them. We are all in a process, I think, in this life of like unlearning and relearning. And sometimes I think when it comes to these higher stake quote situations that in involve like politics or policy, that sometimes maybe people dig their heels in or refuse to look at the huge discrepancies that do exist within their own beliefs and value systems and some of the uh policies and people they support because it feels like if they do change their mind, they're automatically forced to change their mind about every single thing. It's that all or nothing thinking, right? And we don't need to be all or nothing. It is okay to be like in process and and not have everything figured out, but be honest with yourself about what you do and don't really support.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah. I think the other thing that I keep going back to is like just how bad are the Epstein files that he had to create this.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

I yes. So that's what's this is such a monstrous situation. Like people are living literally in terror. I have clients I have met with on telehealth who live in Minneapolis who are not sleeping, they have no appetite, their bodies hurt everywhere, they are so tense. Every time they're in their car, they're looking in every single car to make sure it's not ice driving near them. They are their stomachs in knots, like the anxiety symptoms, the hypervigilance, the f the helicopters flying overhead, triggering also the trauma they lived through collectively with George Floyd and the uprising. Like people are not okay. And I've my heart goes out to my clients and their families, like, oh, these are, you know. My hands are sweating. Yeah. And and these are people who could be targeted just for the way they look. Right. This is, I think, another thing to name is like people are just being targeted because they have any slight resemblance to not looking white, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:24

Like it. So anyway, thinking about what everybody's living through in their bodies and all of that, sorry, I just spent on a long side note, is that like it's all a diversion from the fact that they are breaking the law federally.

Night Terror In The Night

SPEAKER_02 23:44

They were supposed to release these Epstein files. There's 1% released. Right. This man is clearly the most evil monster who has clearly abused children over and over again. Things are so bad. Like, and no one is talking about it. I don't hear anyone talking about the Epstein files anymore. It's working, and that's what really is like upsetting me deeply too. Like this is it's it's like his whole playbook with wrestling. Have you heard that? Like the administration like uses a lot of like the the what's that like really fantastical w wrestling? WWE. Yeah, WWE. They use the playbook of wrestling. Like they even call it heat when they get a lot of heat on something. The administration, they've been using this forever as a tactic. What is this reality? I know. So they're using these tactics of like, you know, distract, like get heat from the audience, get all of this like stuff going about this other thing so that everybody forgets about what's really happening.

SPEAKER_05 24:58

Deploy the army against US citizens. And that like threaten to take Greenland?

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yeah. Oh yeah, oh yeah, let's not forget that. Like we're we might be going to war with Europe over Greenland while we've illegally gone to war with Venezuela.

SPEAKER_05 25:13

And maybe even not physically, but for sure economically with the tariffs that are being threatened. Pleasing the heck out of Putin and China just because of the Epstein files. And let it be known that a huge majority of people in power, celebrities, would be incriminated. And billionaires. It isn't just Trump behind this. It is everybody wanting to cover this up. And all of us don't care. Like, I don't care if it brought down our entire government. Yeah. All of the powerful people, even people who we think are good, dude. Great. Good.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

It's everyone who sold their soul. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:59

Like maybe that would be enough to allow us to start a matriarchal society. Yeah. Because we would have to start from the ground up again. We're battling for the soul of America right now, people.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

And Minnesota just happens to be the battleground. Just happens to be like they've been trying. They've been moving around like Blue City to Blue City for a while, right? Chicago, we saw how horrible it was there. Ice murdered a guy. Like I can't remember his name right now. May he rest in peace. Like they're terrible in LA. Like they're here now, right? But it's much, much worse.

SPEAKER_05 26:34

And well, it's escalating because escalating. The Epstein files should have been released by now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

But I'm just thinking about moms right now, if they're like driving around listening to this. And I just wanted to share that yesterday I went cross-country skiing by myself. And I have not been out yet this season. And it was so wicked cold. But I have not skied that fast in years. I was just like, I had so much rage in my body that I was getting, I was like drenched in sweat by the end and like huffing and puffing that like I just had to move as fast as I possibly could to because the rage that I had been feeling.

SPEAKER_05 27:16

I think the one time I hit PR for a deadlift that was a lifetime PR happened after Trump was elected for the second time. Literally that week. And it was an open gym. There was no, I was just like, grip it and whip it. And I did, and then I cried. And it was because it was also like a post-lifetime PR after birthing all my children. Like there was a lot of layers to the tears.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

But a hundred percent it was this huge release because of the rage, the rage, the mother rage we're feeling, right? Like, ugh, moms are holding so much right now.

What Night Terrors Look Like

SPEAKER_05 27:51

And I am so short with my kids right now. Ugh. Yeah. I'm so short. I have no, like, there is no buffer. As soon as I'm bugged, it comes out. Mm-hmm. And like, don't touch me. You're wiggling. Stop wiggling. Stop touching my face. Like, I have no capacity. And I know it's just because my nervous system is like hijacked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. But I feel like if I the way to move beyond that would be to somehow completely mentally disengage with what's happening and avoid. Yeah. And I also don't feel right about that. Right. So I'm in this highly triggered state that I feel like I have to be in. I can't just give someone my kids until I am now regulated. Yeah. But I am triggered by all of this.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Yeah. Me too. I think most of us are who have a conscience. Because it's either go numb, which sometimes we have to do to get through the day or through like bedtime or whatever. You have to kind of go numb or feel it all. Like there just doesn't feel like an in between. Or maybe there's like little glimmers of it here and there. But I keep coming back to like how hard it is to do my job right now because they're either the people who need to process this in therapy and I want to hold that space for them, but I'm processing it too in real time. Right. Or there are people who just don't even mention it. And I'm like, what's happening? Do we live in the same reality? Or do they just decide like they don't want to have to bring that into their compartmentalizing. And so no judgment if you don't talk about it in therapy therapy. But just like my that's where my brain's at is just how we're all over the place, all of us.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Can I tell my story about what happened to August this week? Yes. Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

So this past week, you know, everything, there's just been a lot of anxiety in our home because our nervous systems are so activated by everything that's been happening. Me and my husband's, I mean. And so we've been like really following and tracking everything a lot and checking in with a lot of friends and family. And um so I think it's just been pretty palpable. Like, you know, and our son he's gonna be two in April. He's he's a very highly sensitive little guy and picks up on a lot of stuff. So I can't help but see like the parallel of all of this and what I'm about to share happen. But also he had his tubes procedure two weeks ago. Okay. So he might be also kind of just working through some of the trauma in his body from the surgery.

SPEAKER_04 30:48

Mm-hmm.

Sleep, Airway, And Triggers

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Because it was a little traumatic for him. He was like whisked away, screaming and reaching for us to go into the OR. I did not like how that was handled. It like it was not my not great. And he was really showing some signs of feeling that when we had to go to the ER. So, long story short, the other night we're still awake. August is sound asleep. He'd been asleep for like three hours, and he wakes up and I hear him crying. So I run upstairs and he is sitting up, and I try to like hug him like I usually do. And he usually just like settles in my arms right away and he starts pushing me away and starts crying louder and louder and screaming louder and louder. So then I'm like starting to get a little worried, like, what's going on? Is he in pain? There have been like the occasional times this has happened and he's gonna throw up. So Chad comes in and is like, let's move to the bathroom in case he's gonna throw up, right? So we go in there and August's eyes are open but glazed over, like completely unfocused. And he is clenching his hands and his feet are curled, and he is shaking uncontrollably and inconsolable scream crying, barely able to breathe because he's crying so hard. And he's just like stuck. And I'm just like saying his name and trying to take a deep breath, but also like what the actual is happening, like what is happening. I look at Chad at one point, I'm terrified. I asked him to call 911. Chad's like, I think we gotta wait it out. Like, I think he's okay. I'm like, I don't think he's okay. But like there's this moment in your body where you like question everything. Yeah. You're like, is this my intuition, or am I like just completely out of like my mind right now? Yeah. Like, what is going on? So it lasts about 10 minutes, and then he kind of seems like he almost comes out of it and wakes up a little and looks at me and starts crying. And then so we go and like get uh some milk for him and sit and snuggle, and he kind of seems like himself a little like he's upset, but he's back to himself, and then he like passes out in my arms, falls asleep, not passes out, but like you know, he just falls asleep really hard. And we call the nurse's line just to be like, what on earth was that? I'm scared in the back of my mind it's a seizure.

SPEAKER_05 33:32

Yeah. When you see like the hands like that, and like, yeah, like the how not conscious he was.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah. So we call and assess everything, and she asks a million questions. You know, most of it, like he couldn't communicate with us. She keeps asking all these questions. Can I mean he's he can talk, but he's not like there yet to talk about what's happening. And at one point he had like motion to his head. So we thought maybe he had like a migraine or something. Anyway, she recommends that we take him into the ER. So we wake him up and get him all dressed. It's also like, you know, below zero, and we go down to the ER. And thankfully it was a really quiet night there, so we didn't have to wait at all. And we get back into uh a room and we had we also got really lucky we had a wonderful doctor. And he asks a whole bunch of questions about it. It's clear he's like ruling out a seizure, and he's like, Okay, so since he was like okay after the episode and back to himself, like that would show it wasn't a seizure because he would have still been like out of it for the seizure. And so it was a night terror. So they're so scary. Okay, yeah, because I texted you, I'm like, Don't care. Some of your kids have these. And what was really helpful, because we felt kind of silly when we were bringing August down because he was fine. Yeah. Going, we're like, why are we even bringing him in? They're said to, but the doctor was like, We see parents all the time in here with their kids after their first night terror because it's so terrifying for you. You don't know what's happening. And it's likely it's gonna happen again, right? Mm-hmm. And so I can share more about like all the like things I'm gonna start doing since there's no like medical treatment for it. This is much more just like nervous system-based stuff, but right, I want to hear your perspective. Right. Because this was this was absolutely like the scariest moment I've ever had as a parent.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Processing Without Time

SPEAKER_05 35:35

We uh we, as you know, have like always struggled with sleep at our house. And one of the things was even though my second child was would fall asleep a lot easier, easier to comb, generally was a really deep sleeper. He would wake up when he was a toddler at the same time of night every single night and would be crying. And I would bring him down on the couch with me. He'd fall asleep because I hadn't even gone to bed yet. We'd be like, we put him to bed at seven, and he'd wake up between nine and 10. And so every single night. To the point where when we would have people watch him, we would kind of tell them, like, hey, he wakes up, it's okay to hold him or whatever, rock in the rocking chair, take him on the couch with you if you're still not sleeping, and you can put him back to bed after and he'll go back to bed. And then, you know, he grew out of that, but then a few, like maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago, he started waking up. And sometimes he would just be like crying, but he was like in elementary school. And most of the time he would wake up and start sleepwalking. And he would walk around our house. He would either come out on the couch and sit on the couch, he would start talking, he would start trying to do things, and most of the time it would end in this, it would kept escalating. And it would end up, he'd be like crying violent, like thrashing around, his hands would be in fists like that. He would be like blubbering, like his face would be so red. We're like, breathe, buddy, and he was not awake. He was not awake. And then the second he would like come to, you could actually see, okay, his eyes have been open this whole time, but now he's like, oh, he sees me. And then he's just kind of confused, doesn't want to talk, doesn't want anything. And they don't remember it, right? Doesn't remember it. And he just wants to go back to bed. And we're like, okay, I feel like I need to process what just happened, and you're just gonna go back to bed. Yeah, okay. Like I would like cover him up, leave the room, and I and you know, Phil be like, is he okay? I'm like, I guess. But it'd be like sometimes they're really long. Oh my God. And I'm like, what the heck? How do you not? And he's like sweating profusely, like wet. It they've changed since he had his expander and his palate changed. And he's also the kiddo that has, I know he has some oral ties that we never got snipped because while he was a snacker as a baby, it didn't negatively affect his latch. He just got tired. So he would only ever drink between two and four ounces at a time, whether it was a bottle or me. And he would just eat frequently through the day and through the night. And he would randomly be a mouth breather at night, whatever. And I asked the orthodontists that, and they said, yeah, sometimes people do notice a change. Like night terrors can be associated with sleep. Like sleep, kind of like sleep apnea in a way. So interesting. The idea of like his tubes, fluid backed up, like did if they've commented on his tonsils or adenous or anything.

Stuck Between Numb And Flooded

SPEAKER_02 39:06

No, but I he does, I have been listening late lately, and he snores a lot. Yep. And he moves around a lot in his sleep.

SPEAKER_05 39:14

So Yeah, and like Klay does too. So I have some ideas for you on like other things you could probably do as like it's still early. His palate is still like pliable. There's a lot that you can still change where we didn't do any of that until he got braces. And I do feel like for us, at least a part of it, like they would get worse when he would get sick, have a fever, whatever. And like that is a very much like if you if you look this stuff up, night terrors for sure, like if they have a fever, whatever, can absolutely and he had a cold this week. So yeah. But I think I was kind of surprised by that. But now when I talk to people and look at stuff, I'm like, oh yeah, uh huh. That for us. So Skylar, same thing. They're not super significant, but she wakes up early. The same time every single night. And sometimes she'll wake up and fully wake up and come get me or kind of call for us, but she's not in a nightter. And other times there have been times where like I'll go in there and she'll be muttering to herself, sad, whatever. And she's not awake. She's not actually awake. And I will lay her down and she doesn't know I'm there. Wow. But she can, she can more easily be so like what they say is if you notice this happening, especially if they're sleepwalking or whatever, is don't try to wake them up. Try to get them to go back to sleep. And if we intervene early enough, we can. But if it goes on too long, it does start to like escalate into this big thing.

SPEAKER_03 40:46

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 40:48

Me saying that, it is not your fault that you were trying, like that this escalated and that it was as scary because you were somehow trying to console him. It sounds like he was, this is what it was gonna be. Yeah. Like there was nothing you could have done to change it. I don't know how you wake a kiddo up in the middle of a night terror. Like it is, they like can't wake up. No, and you're not supposed to, right? So well, and like Clay has launched himself off of a top bunk onto a cement floor in the middle of the night during a night terror and he didn't wake up. He was still mid-night terror as Phil and I are trying to assess him on the cement floor. I thought he shattered his shoulder blade. Phil thought he like hurt his pelvis or broke his neck because he like wouldn't move and wouldn't let us like move his arms. He was like in that like fetal position, scream crying, freaking out. And he finally came to and was like, why are like so confused? Like, get off me.

Hate, Grief, And Re-centering Love

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Oh my God. And I think, okay, so like while I'm listening to you talk about this, and what I'm realizing this past week is it's such a prime example of parenting in this world right now. It's like this absolutely terrifying thing happens in the middle of the night, and you have no way to like fully process it. Your kid just goes back to sleep. Yeah. And you're left just like what was that? And then you wake up. I mean, we got home from the ER at 1 a.m. My husband stayed home with August for the day because he had, you know, the August had a cold, but I needed to go support my clients, especially the ones in Minneapolis. So I was not gonna cancel on them, but I was so exhausted and I just had no time to process, right? Like I just went to bed from the ER, like woke up, went to work all day, was just like, what was that? And then came home and like hung out as a family and like just kept going. Like we just keep going.

SPEAKER_04 42:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

And so many things keep happening out in the external world in the collective or with our kids. And we just have to like take it and keep going. And there's never really fully a chance unless you have like the opportunity like I'm was sharing about the skiing, like outing, and just how cathartic that was. But like we don't always have that luxury of solo time and to do something like that in our bodies. So I don't know. That's something I'm really wrestling with. It's just how limited we are in being able to process what's going on in our families and in our world.

SPEAKER_05 43:26

Yeah, and then just keep going instead.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yeah. And so no wonder why you're short with your kids. I know, like your last straw all the time and touched out.

SPEAKER_05 43:36

Like it's just all too much. I know. Like, you know, the reality is I can't keep going like this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Then you just know logically, like, they're not trying to do that. No, like they're just being kids, but it's like yeah, there's just no break. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what we can do besides like call our worthless representative Pete Stauber and yell at him. But I know I'm pretty sure they've like flagged me as like Oh, I'm definitely flagged.

SPEAKER_05 44:06

Don't listen to this message. Put her in the crazy white lady category.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

He's a Trump worshipper, so he's useless. But at least we can try to vote him out in the midterms this fall.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

I know. But it's like, until then, what do we do about the people who are being hunted down by the federal government in our state? So anyway, there's that.

Women’s Anger And Protection

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Also, what I wanted to share was like I don't know if you felt this or if anyone listening has, but like I've been really struggling with hate, like being filled with hate for people who join ICE, for white supremacists, for Trump, for Christy Noam, like for all the law enforcement who are going along with for Pete Staubert, like for all of these people who are just like out there to intentionally destroy families and rip them apart and ruin people's lives and ruin communities. So I'm like stuck in hate. And that doesn't feel good. Like it feels really icky to hate something or hate someone and like to be aware of it, but also to feel stuck with so much vitriol. Like I don't think it's going to solve anything. I I think it's a very healthy to feel angry and outrage. And underneath that, of course, is like a lot of grief, right? Yeah. But like, I don't think it's healthy for me to feel this much hate. And I don't think I want to feel this, but I I'm just like, that's something I've been really recognizing is like, how do I actually disrupt my brain to shift into like a a different state? And so one thing I wanted to share that has been starting to work for me is just like noticing when I'm getting stuck thinking about those people. And instead, I'm trying to like take a deep breath and think about someone I care about who is in like a direct like line of needing protection. Or thinking about just like a community of people, like thinking about the love I have for all of the immigrants, like the Hmong community, the Somali community. Like I'm just trying to shift back to thinking about the people who are deserving of love. And it doesn't always work, but like I'm just since I'm not like a churchgoer or like really active in like a lot of the prayer stuff, that doesn't really fit with my belief system fully, but just like trying to meditate on like loving people that are deserving of love. So I just wanted to share that because I'm I'm trying to work through that more. And if you have any other ideas, I just yeah, just like we don't want to forget about the people that are deserving of love too.

SPEAKER_05 47:14

I would much rather spend my mental time and energy centering them. Because when I am in this enraged, like hateful place, I am centering all of the people and systems that I don't want to exist. Yeah. Like I don't want this patriarchal system to exist, but when I'm in that state, that's what I'm consumed with.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:40

But I also think like for me, you you mentioned grief, and like that is really the well in which some of this hate like bubbles up from, is it it, there's so much grief there. And it is easier for me to be in that hateful, spiteful, angry place. And I think those feelings are all valid and needed, but I need to sit more with that grief. And and and it doesn't like sort of the hate feels like pseudo-productive in a way. Like I'm direct, you know what I mean? But like it's not. But I think really sitting with and figuring out how to process the different layers of grief that I have and that I'm feeling is probably where my mental energy should be. I think ultimately what comes of that is probably going to be more productive and better for me, even though I think it would be harder.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

I think it's more challenging. I think it absolutely requires more mental effort than to, I mean, that's why we are where we are as a nation, right? Because it's so much easier to be angry. Yeah. It's just like the fight in us, just you can just go there and stay there. Right. But to actually soften and notice what's underneath all of that is so much deeper and so much more work. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 49:21

And I I want to be careful because I think women have like been told not to be mad. Yes. We're not allowed to be mad. People are uncomfortable when we're angry, even for the slightest moment.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Like you're drama, like if you're listening, it wasn't even safe for a lot of women to be angry. You can't be angry to be angry.

Children At The Center

SPEAKER_05 49:41

We don't know how to express our anger. Yeah. So we are in some ways policing ourselves a little bit about like as soon as we feel this, yeah, it's like, oh, we shouldn't, or it's bad, or it's unhealthy. And I do agree that like we can't stay in that state. Yeah. And I don't want to be spending my mental time and energy thinking about all these people who are literally just harming others. Like, I don't want to camp there. Yeah. But I want to be sure that moms, women listening realize that, like, please don't police your anger and hate. We probably need that more than we need your own policing. Absolutely. And that like, we probably don't know what it looks like to express it in ways that are healthy. What does healthy expression of anger even mean or look like in a society where women have been policed for their feelings this entire time? But men can be excused in expressing their anger in any way that they find like accessible. Yeah. And we are supposed to allow it, accommodate for it. So I feel like I'm on this line exploring what my anger really means and looks like and not staying there.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I'm so glad you mentioned that. It's such a big part of undoing the patriarchy within our bodies as women, of like recognizing I wasn't allowed to be angry as a kid. It wasn't nice. Like it, yeah, I have a very complicated relationship with anger.

SPEAKER_05 51:15

Like, I think some of this anger comes from like I've really struggled with this idea that society has accepted about men being protectors. But when we were children and it was like we got lost, who do you go find? Not a man. No. You go find another mom. Yeah. If you wake up in the middle of the night and you have a bad dream, who are you calling? Mom. Like all of these, like who do I want to care for me? Mom. Like, I you're we are never told to go find a man. We are never told even to trust police officers. It's like if you're getting pulled over and you're not sure it's a real police officer, call the local precinct and tell them where you're going to pull over. Ask for another officer. Like we are told to not even trust the quote protectors that we have and that we pay with our tax money to do that. So for me, I think some of my anger is like this like ancient protector.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 52:13

That has never been recognized. I think that's it. Like mothers are the protectors. Yes. And we are told not to feel angry. We are told to sit back. So I think this recent murder in Minneapolis, where like she did put herself in front of others. And while I think other people are gonna read into that, like, and then it's criticized, mocked, ridiculed ridiculed, like she shouldn't have been there, she should have been home, she should have been with her kids. I'm sorry. Moms are the ones standing up. We are the ones protecting our kids. We are the ones making the day in, day out decisions to protect them from anything and everything. Yes. We are constantly assessing risk. So for me, I think some of this anger, like I don't know what to do with it. And it's like there's like a never-ending like pit of it. Yeah. Is like there is this protector part that I think has been completely silenced and ignored because it was never allowed to be. Because we were supposed to be crazy. Yes. Yeah. To these men who really aren't doing a whole lot. Now, I don't want to invalidate the men who are, the men who are out there who are doing what they need to be doing. But ultimately, you know you're a good one if you're doing it. So Right. I don't right. The the women and the moms in society are historically the ones who are protecting.

unknown 53:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:36

And and the second our anger bubbles up, we're somehow trying to figure out how to soften it. Yeah. So what we need to have it, and I want to explore what that means. I think there's a part of it that is rooted in protection and a lot of it that's in grief. But how do we feel it and not stay there? Yeah. How do we still prioritize the people being hurt and harmed and not prioritize in this state the people who are doing the hurting?

SPEAKER_03 54:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:06

I can't stop Pete Stauber from being an idiot. So I don't want my hate and anger to be like centered there. Yeah. But Pete, if you're listening, you're an idiot. You're a total scum, Pete Stouber.

Life As Usual Or Not

SPEAKER_02 54:21

We do not, we do not like you. Okay, but maybe, okay, maybe you can help me tie this together because I don't know why this is coming up while you were talking. But there's something about it's possibly just all about the protector parts of us as mothers that is unseen. But the the main thing that I forgot to mention that I focus on when I'm like trying to shift back to like love and care instead of being stuck in hate is towards all the children in Minneapolis and St. Paul and the suburbs, like all of the children who you were mentioning, like your sister's kids in their situation, like so many children are in the crossfire of all of this. They're scared, they're bored, they're hopeless, they're regressing, they're having, you know, nightmares, bed wedding. Like if they live through the George Floyd era of stuff too, like their bodies remember that. And I have friends sharing about these things that are happening, like panic attacks. They see a delivery driver in a uniform and they get absolutely terrified because they don't know if it's a bad guy or not. And like just, yeah, I mean, seeing their parents and other parents out patrolling schools at drop-off and pickup and being scared their teachers are gonna get kidnapped, like just how many layers of what's happening for our kids that are living through this, like at ground zero right now. And like, how does that go back to how we show up as parents with our own kids? Where it's like we're just trying to protect them from knowing how bad things are and how scary things are, but also like wanting them to just be kids and play and have a good day. And I don't know. I just wanted to leave that there for you, like what's coming up for you. Cause I just, while you were talking about the protector stuff of just like the kids, the children, and of course, right, the children who are being detained. How many thousands of kids are sitting in cages right now? Yeah. Yeah. Once you're a mom, I just don't know how you can't not feel for all the children and imagine it's your own child. Like, right. You have to have no soul, Christine Ome. Because, or anyone that thinks this is okay, because like once you're a mom and you know the work it takes to grow a human in your body and birth them and care for them, and how like beautiful and like perfect all of them are, and how incredibly innocent and beautiful and deserving they are of a happy, safe life.

Burning And Blooming

SPEAKER_05 57:08

And somehow they're just deserving of whatever experience they have in life because they were born in a certain place at a certain time. Or with a certain color of skin or a certain language they were taught. Like somehow they deserve that. Like, no, they don't. Yeah. I think the protector part. So like literally it just circles back to the first things I talked about where we were at the basketball tournament yesterday and we were going on quote, life as normal, life as usual. And it's this very weird time to be parenting when our kids do deserve to have a childhood and to have experiences in life where they feel safe, they feel happy, they feel seen, and to have parents who are regulated enough to be able to still connect with them and to have a childhood where they feel loved. And everybody, I think, deserves that. And we are in this really weird and privileged place where we get to step in and out of this reality where other people don't get to step out of it.

SPEAKER_03 58:16

And I don't know what to do with that. Talk about it. Yeah. Contribute to mutual aid. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have the answers, but it's still not worth not talking about. No.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

Like we have to keep talking about this. We have to stop normalizing and just going on with our day and with our families.

SPEAKER_05 58:43

Yeah. I just think about like how wonderful the world can be if it was ruled by mothers.

SPEAKER_03 58:51

Yeah. I'm gonna share a quote that maybe we can end with. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

This is from Karen Salmondson. My aunt sent me this. The world is both burning and blooming. You get the bad news and the sunrise in the same day. You cry over the headlines, and then you laugh at a baby wearing a hat shaped like a bear. This is the dual citizenship of being alive. Rage and reverence, grief and grace. You are allowed to feel both. You are allowed to scream and still notice how good the soup is. You don't have to choose let it all in. That's where we're at.

Outro And Ways To Connect

SPEAKER_05 59:36

Thanks for listening. We hope you feel seen. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with other mamas. Subscribing to our podcast and leaving us a review is one of the best ways for other people to find us. So if you enjoy what you are hearing or if it resonates with you, please subscribe and leave us a review. It would mean a lot. You can find me, Kirsten, at empowerortho and public health.com, or on Instagram at Kirsten Demoray DPT.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

And you can find me, Molly, through my music at Sister Veri on Bandcamp or other streaming platforms, or through my clinical practice at InsightCounseling in Duluth, Minnesota. You can follow us or send us a DM on Instagram at MamaYouBelong, or email us if you have questions, ideas, or just want to connect at mamayubelong at gmail.com. We will see you next time.