BEST OF: How do we deal with anxiety in the Christian life - with Paul Grimmond

‘Do not be anxious about anything’ says the Apostle Paul.  But Paul Grimmond says saying that to an anxious person is a bit like telling an icecream not to melt in summer.

How do we think biblically about anxiety while taking on board what else is happening with a person’s biology and environment?

How can we see anxiety as a gift? What does the interplay between mind and body look like? How does sin contribute to anxiety?  What place for counseling? Self talk?

Paul Grimmond is a lecturer at Sydney’s Moore Theological College.  He came into speak to us about his book -  ‘When the noise won’t stop: A Christian guide to dealing with anxiety’.

To purchase a copy: https://bit.ly/3y2FULL

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Transcript

Dominic Steele: 1:06

It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele. And this week in this week between Christmas and New Year, we're thinking a best of episode from our archive, how to deal with anxiety in the Christian life with Paul Grimmond. How do you think biblically about anxiety while taking on board What else is happening in a person's biology and environment? And how can we see anxiety as a gift? What does the interplay between the mind and the body look like? And how does sin contribute to anxiety? What place for counselling, for self-talk? Do not be anxious about anything. That's what the Apostle Paul says. But Paul Grimmins says, saying that to an anxious person is a bit like telling an ice cream not to melt in the summer. Paul Grimmond is a lecturer at Sydney's Moore Theological College. He came in to speak to us about his book, When the Noise Won't Stop, A Christian Guide to Dealing with Anxiety. Paul, could we start with your heart? Because you're not approaching this in any sense with... if you like, a detached academic distance. You are deeply in this story.

Paul Grimmond: 2:26

Yeah. So, I mean, for me, it's been a story kind of that's a lifelong story for me. I had what I now realise were panic attacks as a teenager, although I had no language to describe them at the time. I kept them to myself. I didn't tell anybody else about them. I just experienced them and they were awful. I mean, I

Dominic Steele: 2:43

was quite gripped by reading your, it's quite graphic, the way you describe a panic attack. Yeah.

Paul Grimmond: 2:50

Look, I mean, at its very worst, I had them through... point through high school. The worst one I ever had was while I was at Bible College. So in its severe form, as I hyperventilate, it actually changes your chemistry in a way that causes your muscles to contract. So I actually had this band of pain across my chest and running down my arms and whatever. I was absolutely certain that I was dying of a heart attack, actually. It was on a dear friend's kitchen floor. They rang the ambulance. The ambulance arrived, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So they're an awful experience.

Dominic Steele: 3:24

Mm-hmm. And is that a general experience or is that just your particular experience? Is that what other people describe as panic attacks to you?

Paul Grimmond: 3:34

I mean... One of the things about anxiety is that it's different for every person. That particular panic attack was in a very extreme form. So the point at which you start getting the muscle, like my hands look like this, my arms are contracted, the weight across my chest, all of that kind of stuff, that was kind of at the severe end of physiological response. But in terms of the agitation, feeling out of your mind, feeling desperate, feeling like you've got nowhere to go and you can't solve it, and just feeling terrified and out of your brain, that experience for anybody who's had a panic attack will be a familiar description of something that they've felt. What is anxiety? Yeah. I mean, look, Dominic, at its base level, it's just part of our body's physiological response to a world that's sometimes threatening or dangerous, I think is the best description of what it is. So our body's actually wired in God's kindness to help us to respond to the fact that the world's not always friendly and helpful. And it does that quite kind of automatically in a way around lots of things. There are dangers in the those dangers. So it's a set of chemical things that are set off by the way our nervous system works and other things in response to perceived threat, whether the threat's actually real or not. Yeah.

Dominic Steele: 5:02

You describe it as a gift of God, and you recognise that's going to be hard for some people to hear, and probably it was hard for you to hear.

Paul Grimmond: 5:12

Yeah, I mean... I think that I can call it a gift of God in a way because I've lived with it for 30 or 40 years. And so in God's kindness, there's a little bit of perspective there for me. I still go through bouts where I feel very heightened and agitated and particular things will set me off and I'll wake early with my mind buzzing and all of that kind of stuff. But I think what I realise is that those experiences and feelings over time have actually caused me to wrestle very deeply with the gospel, have caused me to think very deeply about human responses to pain and suffering and difficulty and that kind of stuff. And I think that's part of what God has used to form me to become the person that I am. So a sense of compassion for people, Just an awareness of the complexity of mental health and other things like that. I look at it as a gift now because I think it's deepened my trust in God and I think it's helped me to wrestle at quite a deep level with some of my behaviours and things that I think grow out of my sinful nature that haven't been healthy that I still wrestle with, but that's been helpful for me. I feel like God's been very kind to me in providing people in my life, Dominic, that have helped me to learn through this process and actually grow.

Dominic Steele: 6:42

Yeah. Let's go to the Bible because... I mean, as you observe, lots of people go straight to Philippians 4 or Matthew 6. Actually, the Bible has a much wider treatment of this word anxious than that. So take us through some of the passages.

Paul Grimmond: 7:04

Look, so, I mean, the exact same word that's used. So, you know, it's Jesus, don't worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow has enough worries of its own in that passage about the birds and God clothing the birds. Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the Mount. And in Paul in Philippians 4, do not be anxious about anything. But what's interesting is that the same language gets picked up in various places. So it describes Epaphras. Paul uses it to describe Epaphras as the one who is anxious for you, and that's a really positive thing when Paul describes his ministry. It's positive to be anxious. It's actually positive to be anxious. And in 1 Corinthians 12, that marvelous passage about the body, it actually says that God has created the body in order that each person might have, and the word, it's exactly the same word. anxiety for one another. Our Bible's translated care. So obviously this is a word that's got some breadth to it. But it's interesting that the Bible has one word that describes all of those different kind of realities. And even the Apostle Paul himself, when it talks about him carrying the burden for all of the churches, his concern for them and for their sin and all that kind of stuff, again, the anxious word gets used. So it's just interesting that that word occurs in places that are sometimes really, this is a good thing to be Christian and not so. For me, 1 Corinthians 7 is actually really significant, which is about the husband and the wife. You're either anxious about the things of this world or you're anxious about the things of the Lord. And so it's not that anxiety in itself is wrong, but we need to learn how to direct it towards the things that concern God, if I could put it like

Dominic Steele: 8:35

that. And I was interested, I've been working on 2 Corinthians 11 and 12. I'm doing a talk for Craig Hamilton at the Hustle Conference in And the key word, anxiety, in that passage that you pointed out in the book. Yeah, yeah,

Paul Grimmond: 8:52

yeah. I mean, I find that particular part of 2 Corinthians really, really helpful. Yeah, give us that. Give us your thought. Help me with my preparation. I just think, like... That remarkable section where Paul talks about kind of having been to the seventh heaven and seeing all of the glories of the coming kingdom and whatever else, but going, actually, what I needed more than anything else was not God to fix my problem, but to learn that his grace is sufficient for me. And so to work out what it means to be content in those circumstances. When we talked before about, you know, what does it mean that anxiety has been a gift to you? I think it's in a sense learning that I don't need God to take it away to actually use it for my good and for my growth and for the service of others and for my comfort and for a whole bunch of other things that Paul talks about in just really rich language in that section, I think. I don't need

Dominic Steele: 9:49

God to take it away because, I mean... There is a sense when I think I'm feeling too anxious, I've got to get myself out of this situation. But you're saying that's not always the answer.

Paul Grimmond: 10:00

Yeah, I mean, I think if striving to get rid of the anxiety is the thing that you're striving for, I suspect that there's going to be some counterproductive reality to that. I think that... Look, I want to keep being really honest. Anxiety is such a miserable personal experience, right? And when you're in that space where for days on end just your mind's buzzing, your body's buzzing and you can't get away from it and you feel so desperate, you do long to kind of escape it and get away from it. But I think... As one friend of mine, and I quote her at a point in the book, she says, for me it's like, she talks about, you know those little spinning wheels with all the colours on them and you blow them and the wheel spins around and all of a sudden it becomes white as the colours blur together? She said her experience of the world is often that all of her thoughts and feelings have blurred into that white zone and everything's kind of out of control. And she says... Her phrase is, I think, cue unhealthy coping behaviours. And so she said, when my anxiety is that desperate... I look for all sorts of ways of controlling it, not all of which are actually good for me or healthy or godly. And I think actually anxiety lies behind a lot of our unhealthy behaviours. So running to things like pornography or to drinking or to shopping or just to that kind of desperate scrolling on the internet, there are all sorts of behaviours that we can use to numb uh the pain of the anxiety um and so i think one of the things that i want to say to people is actually learning to go okay i feel it i have to learn to accept that it's part of my bodily reality it's probably going to keep happening how do i learn by god's grace and the work of his spirit through a deep understanding of the gospel to trust god in this to patiently persevere and to chip away at all the bits and pieces that are going to actually help me to grow and manage my anxiety, I think. Learning to live with it rather than get rid of it is probably a healthier way to think, I

Dominic Steele: 12:09

think. You talk about anxiety as being a complex problem. Yeah. And people often wonder, how did I end up here? How am I anxious? Yeah. And then trying to pinpoint where it's actually come from in that I didn't used to be like this and now I am. Yeah. Unpack that for me.

Paul Grimmond: 12:27

Oh, look, I mean, I think part of the problem, as we learn more and more about it, there are so many things that affect my anxiety. So anxiety is a biological, physical, chemical process, but it's a physical, chemical process that's connected to the way that I think about the world, my beliefs, the way that I live, that kind of stuff. And all of it happens in an environment which is beyond me and that I have no control over. And I think for every individual person who struggles deeply at a clinical level with anxiety, the complex interaction between environment, the way that we're wired physiologically, and the way that we think and process the world occurs differently for different people. But I know people who I actually think have lived with anxiety for a long time and haven't even had any language for it or haven't even realized that it's happening to them who get to this point where all of a sudden they become overwhelmed by it and they get these flood of feelings and they become desperate about things and they go, well, I've always would have described myself as kind of calm or whatever. And interestingly, for many of them, as they start to pick back through things, they've realized they've been bodily signs and physiological signs of all sorts of levels of anxiety that they haven't even necessarily been consciously aware of previously that they kind of suppress or ignore. And even I think you can, some people can kind of make this division between their body and their thinking and I'm up here and this is down here and I can kind of live with it. And then if you live with low level chronic anxiety for long enough, your body actually starts to reshape itself chemically in ways that lead either to depression or to experiences of clinical anxiety,

Dominic Steele: 14:12

or both.

Speaker 00: 14:13

Yeah.

Dominic Steele: 14:14

You, I don't know, about halfway through, raised the issue of, well, sometimes we use the language of sufferer, but other times we use the language of sinner. And there are two aspects to what's going on with anxiety. You've just talked about sufferer. Talk to me about sinner.

Paul Grimmond: 14:34

Well, I mean, I think my great encouragement to people is to work out how to hang on to both of those pieces of language and probably get external help to work out when and where to apply them. So I think we think, oh, no, I'm being anxious, I'm disobeying Philippians 4, I'm a sinner, at the point where in some ways it's really just you're physiology that's out of control and has gone crazy. And you're not being a sinner at that moment when you experience the overwhelmed nature of your body responding to the world. And so to leap to the sinner lens at that point in time is the wrong lens to use at that moment. But at the same time, over time, I think... I mean, biblically, we believe that it doesn't matter who you are. We are sinners. And so my sin does play into my anxiety. So for me, for example, one of the examples that I use in the book is that I've become highly sensitized to the presence of potential conflict in relationship.

Dominic Steele: 15:38

Mm hmm.

Paul Grimmond: 15:39

That meant that I just tried to avoid it at all costs. Or when I did engage with it, I wanted to dump, have the other person listen to everything that I say, agree with everything I say, and then walk away again. Now, when I start to think about that behavior, which, you know.

Dominic Steele: 15:54

I got to that page in your book and I thought, yeah, I'd like to deal with my wife, my interactions in my marriage like that too. But that's not going to work.

Paul Grimmond: 16:03

So realizing that there's actually, there's some sin there and some unhealthiness. There's a desire. Yeah. Yeah. going to hear things from them that are going to make me uncomfortable and rather than running away, I have to sit and try and listen to. Dominic, sometimes I do okay at that and sometimes I still do terribly. So like it's not like I've solved it or anything. But when I say that that's one of, when I talked about a gift, I think that's one of the gifts for me is that it started to help me to look at a deeper level at wrestling with myself and some of the kind of bents of my own body and system and personality that are sometimes unhealthy or unhelpful that I need to repent of and try to live differently.

Dominic Steele: 17:42

Yeah. If Jesus has borne our sorrows and his wounds really heal us, why do we still experience anxiety?

Paul Grimmond: 17:52

I mean, at one level, that's the question of the entire Bible, I think. Yeah. And I think we experience it in a number of ways. But if Jesus has come and he's solved all the problems, what's happening? And I think our picture of biblical eschatology at that point is just so vitally important. So I think the Apostle Paul states really clearly that... Jesus has come and we are in new life with Jesus. So we come to faith in him. He sets his spirit upon us. We're raised from dead to life spiritually. We're seated with Christ in the heavenly realms, Colossians chapter 3. All of those things are true of us. But when the Bible talks about eschatology, it also uses the language of Romans 8, living in a groaning creation. The creation itself longs for the liberation of the sons of God, the redemption of their bodies. We actually still live in bodies that are not yet transformed and fit to be imperishable and to live in the eternal creation. So if you think about Christ's work, it is for the restoration of the whole creation. It begins to work in us now by new life in Christ, but it will reach its fulfillment when the whole of creation is restored and when our body is transformed on the last day. So we now live in this in-between space where we're the tension of there's this new self that's been granted to us that we're trying to live out in a space where we live in fallen bodies in a fallen world and it's messy. And I actually think that that's part of the reason that anxiety is good as well as bad, right? So the world is a painful, dangerous place. I have someone that I love who's walking away from Jesus. Should I feel anxious about that and go and talk to them? Yes, I should. You know, I have a dear friend who's wrestling with sin. Should I feel some concern for them? Yes, I should. So that sense of living in a still fallen world where we need to have our concerns rightly directed, that's kind of anxiety shaped in a godly way, if I can put it like that.

Dominic Steele: 19:53

So sin contributes to my anxiety, but I'm feeling anxious about addressing my sin.

Paul Grimmond: 20:02

Yeah. It's so complex, isn't it? Sometimes, Dominic, this is the bit that just makes me feel like, oh, God, it's too hard, you know, it just feels too hard. I think for people who are... struggle with anxiety for many of them guilt and shame in their relationship with god is a deep driving force in how they think and relate and act in the world and so actually at that point sitting with the truth of the gospel and saying that in the death and resurrection of the lord jesus god has so paid for my sin And so dealt with my past and who I am that I now stand washed and forgiven in his presence as a child of God. And that adoption is not something that you fall into and then get kicked out of. You get included in the family. And God actually treats you tenderly as a child in that space. I think that's the space that allows me to go, sin, which is abhorrent and awful and deserving of the judgment of god is also an everyday reality of fallen human existence and i can engage with that stuff that's part of me that i feel embarrassed and ashamed about knowing that god already knows that it's true of me knowing that i can actually come to him as father knowing that i'm already forgiven And by his grace and help, he can actually help me to understand it a bit more clearly and work out how to repent or engage healthily with it.

Dominic Steele: 21:53

Now, my wife's a doctor and she has been frustrated as she's read um, on these various topics. Uh, she's frustrated because often the medical stuff doesn't engage with the spiritual stuff and often the spiritual stuff doesn't engage competently with the medical stuff. So I, I'd read this in preparation for today and I gave it to her to read and, uh, she's given you a big, big, big tick. Um, and, uh, I think she said to me, I think it's the best thing, an integrated thing in terms of dealing well with the medical and dealing well with the spiritual that she's seen. You talk about the relationship between the mind and the body and the body-mind interplay. Can you just give us a little riff on that?

Paul Grimmond: 22:43

Yeah, look, I mean, this has been one of the really helpful things for me, I think, in researching for the book and just thinking about it. I mean, we... We have inherited, I think, from our kind of history and the scientism of our world and a bunch of other things, this sense that we're a kind of mind encased in this fleshly thing. It's a bit of a pain, but quite frankly, if you can sort your mind out, everything else will sort itself out. I relate to that. That's a challenge when you

Dominic Steele: 23:12

get to halfway

Paul Grimmond: 23:13

through your book. Yeah, absolutely. Whereas if you look at what all the science says, it says that your mind is so connected with your body, your brain is so connected to your body, You don't think independently of your physical reality and your experience of bodily life. So it's not just that there are nerve pathways from all of your body to your brain, but there are actually dozens of chemical pathways between your body and your brain that are sending signals about what's going on in your brain to your body and stuff all the time. So there's this great little piece of research by this guy from Israel at Ben Gurion University in Israel. He does a 10-month study of top judges granting parole. role in the Israeli legal system. So there's eight judges with an average of 22 years experience each. And he basically does some statistical controlling for the seriousness of the original offence and whatever. That's the diagram just there. Page 61. Page 61. And that diagram is basically, once they've done the control, they plot your likelihood of getting granted parole according to what time of day your case was heard. And it basically goes from about 65% at the start to about zero just before morning tea. And then it jumps straight back to 65% after morning tea and drops down to about 20% just before lunch. And then drops. So if I've done the wrong thing... Look, you're getting your exams marked? Pray that they're not marking just before lunch. Hey, how does that...

Dominic Steele: 24:40

I mean, you said to me just as you came in, you've been marking exams. Yeah, that's right. Have you been aware that

Paul Grimmond: 24:45

I'm... Well, it's really interesting. One of the things that they learnt from this research is just helping people to be aware of the fact that this effect is in place helps them to adjust for it. If you're not aware of it and you're not thinking about

Dominic Steele: 24:55

it... That I'm likely to be tough

Paul Grimmond: 24:57

at that point. Yeah, that's right. You can actually... results over time being aware of the fact that that's an impact on you. But the thing that I found really fascinating about that, which matches with lots of other research that's going on, is that what your brain is doing is affecting your, sorry, what your body's doing affects your brain and your mind as much as what you're thinking affects your body.

Dominic Steele: 25:17

Right.

Paul Grimmond: 25:18

And so to think that we can just be this detached mind that can escape our bodily experience.

Dominic Steele: 25:22

Well, I know that I'm more godly if I've had enough sleep.

Paul Grimmond: 25:25

Yeah. But, you know, when you see the child chuck a tantrum at the two-year-olds, kind of hit the floor and they're not going anywhere and they're screaming at the top of their lungs and everyone goes, they need to be fed. Yeah. And we think we outgrow that when we get into adulthood, but actually it's probably not true.

Dominic Steele: 25:42

Okay. So how does this relate to

Paul Grimmond: 25:44

anxiety? Well, I just think being aware then that anxiety is not just what I believe and think, but it's what's going on in my body. So for me, like I exercise nearly every day. I walk for an hour or I spend half an hour on a bike and do some strength exercises. So for me, regular exercise has become a massive part of just, I know, controlling and managing the adrenaline and the other chemicals in my system. I've become much more thoughtful about eating less sugar. I'm still not great at that. because I really like

Dominic Steele: 26:18

sugar. I noticed there was a little low carb vibe in there.

Paul Grimmond: 26:24

Just because I actually think there's quite a bit of evidence that sugar is one of the things that really messes with our system a lot. And so I'm trying to be more thoughtful about kind of what I eat. So being aware that rest, exercise, diet, all of those things, and it's not usually not that one particular of those things in itself is going to solve the problem, but all of them are elements that contribute to my whole body experience of anxiety and chipping away at each of those spaces just matters.

Dominic Steele: 26:54

Yeah. Yeah. The fellowship with others, counselling, those kind of things, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I should just probably get to that. Before we get to relationships with others, body... has an impact on chemicals. And so whether or not you take drugs, just give us what you take as a Bible person on drugs there.

Paul Grimmond: 27:20

Well, what I want to say is that I think in lots of ways, when anxiety gets out of control, it's about habituated chemical pathways in your body. that'll become overly sensitized to the anxiety of the world in which they live and become too responsive to the potential for threat and whatever. In my experience, medication is very helpful for lots of people in this space, but it doesn't solve everything. Usually what happens is the medication just helps your body chemistry to get a bit closer to healthily normal in a way that gives you space to think about and engage with those other things that you need to engage with personally and mentally and your belief system and other things that are important. I know that people feel scared by that sense of I'm introducing something outside of my body that affects me and whatever. I just think when your body is out of control in the anxiety space because of the mind-body connection, you can't think straight. And anybody who's been in that deeply anxious space knows how hard it is to control your thoughts. I think the chemical, the medicine stuff can help your thoughts just be a bit calmer and start to engage in helpful ways that help you to make progress in terms of how you live with it and manage it. There shouldn't just be...

Dominic Steele: 28:42

A

Paul Grimmond: 28:43

chemical thing. You want to say it's chemical plus. It is absolutely chemical plus. So I cannot think of a single person for whom the chemicals have been the only thing that's helped them to live long-term in a healthy way with their anxiety. But it has been, by God's grace, a kind gift to them that's been one area of assistance in terms of managing the whole thing.

Dominic Steele: 29:03

Okay, back to fellowship with others, counselling, interaction with peers. Yeah.

Paul Grimmond: 29:10

I mean, one of my ongoing... realizations in this space is that anxiety feels so personal and often fills with such guilt and shame you feel like nobody else in the world's ever had this experience it's very hard to talk to people about what you've experienced and why and so it tends to be a very lonely place and particularly for some people their anxiety actually causes them to cut off from relationships where it's particularly socially focused and But whatever the case, I think for normal, healthy functioning just as a human being going forward, working out how to find some people that you trust that you can go, I'm having some of these experiences and they're really hard. But then working out, I don't need you to be the person who solves it for me. I just need you to be a friend or my mum or my brother or whoever it is that's in my life. Mm-hmm. But if you can have a really healthy relationship where you can be honest about it, but that person also helps you to enjoy life and do the stuff of just mundane existence, that's a really precious gift from God. And I know for me, friends have been a really important part of this space for me.

Dominic Steele: 30:51

Now, self-talk, you came to this on page 129. And I mean, my wife made the observation to me after reading your section on self-talk that, I mean, actually... We do do self-talk. We

Paul Grimmond: 31:04

know we're going to do it. Everybody's doing it

Dominic Steele: 31:07

all the time. And yet you've given us some really, I'm just going to give you, I'm just going to read your little model here. Is Jesus in control? Yes. Does it matter if I don't know all the possible outcomes? No. Does this decision need to be perfect to honour Jesus? No. Well, that's a really helpful little self-talk. Burst.

Paul Grimmond: 31:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really, I mean, I think that you probably need to develop for yourself little scripts or short... That you play. That you play on a regular basis. You know, for me, at the... Weird set of circumstances. We own a house that we're trying to sell at the moment for a complex series of reasons that's due to happen in the next week or so. It's going to auction. There haven't been lots of people through the place. We're not quite sure what's going to happen. Every time I think about it.

Dominic Steele: 32:01

You're catastrophizing.

Paul Grimmond: 32:03

Everything kind of takes off in my system. And I've realized just for the last few days, I've been working really hard at going, at trying to, as I feel that happen, stopping and saying, God, what's really important? I know that you're in control. So whatever comes out the other end is okay and we can cope with that. And I don't need it to be perfect to sort itself out. And I know that you'll provide and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Now, and that's a very first world problem. And so, but just... Realizing, catching yourself as you're having the strong anxious response to something and finding those little habits of how you actually talk to yourself and remind yourself of some of the fundamental things that you believe because God is your father and because you're loved in Jesus Christ. I think it's a really helpful habit to try and develop.

Dominic Steele: 32:52

There's stacks more to talk to you about, but I think that's probably a good place to stop. Sure. Yeah. My guest has been Paul Grimmond on The Pastor's Heart today. When the Noise Won't Stop, A Christian Guide to Dealing with Anxiety is his new book just about to be released. And look, I think it's going to be super helpful for lots and lots of people. I think basically if you're a pastor, you need to read it. And there are lots of people in our churches who going to be significantly benefited by engaging with this material and the hard work that Paul has done. And I think you'll find it super helpful. Thanks for being with us on The Pastor's Heart this afternoon, and we will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.