The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on <a href="https://www.facebook.com/thepastorsheart">Facebook</a> then on <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@ThePastorsHeart">YouTube</a> and on our <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> website and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Richard Coekin: ‘Pious Passivity’ vs ‘Strategic Intentionality’
What happens when churches move beyond "pious passivity" to strategic intentionality in reaching the lost?
Richard Coekin—founding pastor of Dundonald Church in London and pioneer of REACH UK—joins Dominic Steele to unpack the revolutionary approach transforming churches across Australia and the United Kingdom.
Following on from Reach UK and Reach Australia in May, Richard candidly shares his journey from skepticism about "Pentagon language" and structured frameworks to embracing these tools as valuable expressions of pastoral care and evangelistic intentionality.
"If you don't aim at anything, nothing will happen," he explains, challenging the notion that strategic thinking somehow diminishes reliance on God's sovereignty.
We look at the biblical foundations for strategic ministry, with Richard pointing to Acts 6 as a model where the apostles prioritized preaching and prayer, built ministry teams for delegation, and ensured the church's practical needs were met.
Plus we discuss measuring spiritual fruit.
Whether you're skeptical of strategic approaches to ministry or already embracing them, this conversation offers fresh insights on leading churches that are both faithful to Scripture and effective in mission.
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it is the pastor's heart, dominic steel and today, the reach revolution.
Speaker 1:A look under the bonnet at what is happening here in australia to more effectively reach people for christ and what's happening in a parallel movement in the uk. Richard cookin is with us, 29 years, the senior and founding pastor of Dundonald Church in London, founding leader of the Commission Church Network there and the founder of the London Men's and Women's Convention. But he has just stepped back from all of that and started Reach UK. He's been here in Australia with a team from Britain attending the REACH Australia conference, but just the very week before that he was running the REACH UK conference in London. Richard, thanks for coming and talking to us on the Pastor's Heart and just before you head off to the airport, I just want to talk about your pastor's heart, as you've come to the end of the REACH Australia conference and you and I had a moment at the last night of the conference. We were sitting and chatting in the foyer there and you opened up and were quite reflective and vulnerable about the impact of the conference here and the thinking on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just thinking as a pastor. You get towards the end and you reflect on your ministry and then you go to something like the Reach Australia conference. You realise there's so much I hadn't realized about ministry, so much that I failed to do. So much I didn't do and it you know I could. Things could have been better, I could have done things a lot better. Um, I mean, you know you do your best at the time, but you also need to recognise when younger people are bringing things out that are really helpful and to encourage young people to learn from them, recognise their wisdom and don't make the same mistakes that I've made.
Speaker 1:I mean tell me more.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I think I've been to the Reach Australia conference two or three times, and I think the first couple of times I came I was really struggling to show allegiance to a pentagram you know, whatever it was, We'll put that up on the screen. Well it's sort of the mechanics.
Speaker 1:There's lots of language that describes Actually you and I just going back to our Wednesday night conversation. We were having a little kind of old man's rant and I was ranting against… Speak for yourself, Anyway.
Speaker 2:go, yeah, go, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was ranting against acronyms and talking about how we are so exclusive as a movement, with all this language of a CMS and an FIEC and all those kind of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's that for An MTS?
Speaker 1:And you said there's a whole lot of language in the reach movement that is almost impenetrable.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, I think the trouble is when people have become experts in things, they start using shorthand language and you know you can be cynical, but actually if you're cynical about that, you fail to recognise they're actually quite deep thinking. You know they've been working at this for a lot of years and so there clearly is a movement and it was at 1300 pastors or something, leaders, church leaders there, and actually, um, cynicism is a really dangerous thing, you know, you fail to recognize the value of something and you can get cynical as you're older and think, oh, we never did, never did this. But actually I think I've realized that a lot of that language, like the Pentagon language and the pathway language, output thinking they're just descriptions of actually pretty healthy, very healthy intentionality, in other words, this Pentagon thing with five sides to it. I couldn't get what is that about, and I understand now. It's just a tool for describing what a healthy church looks like. And actually, if you don't, if you, if you don't settle on any any description and just talk in vague principles, what you end up with is is nothing to hold yourself accountable to, nothing to aim at, and I think what I've realized is that, um, the rich people have realized it's really helpful to pastors far and wide to have something you know. Whether it's a pentagon with six sides, four sides, they don't care about that.
Speaker 2:The issue is have a vision of a healthy church that is biblical and aim at that and be intentional about it and be prepared to measure how you're performing so that you can improve and address weaknesses. And I think actually that's about caring enough and I think you know you can sort of do ministry with a sort of pious passivism that just says, well, I'll do my preaching and leave it up to God. Actually I need to care about people becoming Christians. I need to care enough about equipping my church for holy evangelism to actually look seriously at how we're doing. And I think the sort of the Pentagon language and ecosystem language they're just terms for assessing the spiritual health of your church and I think it's not helpful to be cynical of that.
Speaker 2:I think in the UK we can be cynical of anything that's strategic, but actually you're just loving your church enough to care to plan, to pray, to think about whether I could do things better, sorry. Well, I think the rich people are there encouraging you to recognize leaders need to take responsibility, to recognize we are the people who have the opportunity to make changes, to lead change and to bring our leadership teams and elders with us and to say let's see if we can do better to reach the lost preaching sermons. But actually the numbers of people becoming Christians are very modest indeed. You know, often single figures. Sometimes in big churches with glowing reputations, you know there's lots of transfer growth.
Speaker 1:I mean. One of the lines that they've been challenging us on is that you should be seeing whatever your average attendance is something like 5% of that number converts in a year.
Speaker 2:See in the UK people will immediately react to that and say you can't put a number on the work of God. How would you do that? And I get that because there's truth in that that different contexts are variously hard. If you can't grow a church in Wimbledon, where I am, you can't grow a marijuana plant in Kingston, jamaica. A church in Wimbledon, where I am, you know you can't grow a marijuana plant in Kingston, jamaica. You know it's kind of Bible Belt London and it's very different in other parts of London as it is here. So there's not rules.
Speaker 2:But if you don't have anything to aim at, you know the numbers and the figures. You know Acts is full of numbers and of course you could there's this, you know react to numbers. You know you're measuring and of course David is punished for counting his troops for the wrong reason. So of course you can use numbers proudly and be a real pain, but actually in Acts Luke keeps recording the growth of the church to the glory of God. And actually to use numbers so that you're operating with reality rather than anecdotal. You know pastors always like to big up what's actually happening and then you actually look at facts, reality, and you're way short. So I think, to sort of be intentional, to care enough to be intentional, to care enough to hold yourself accountable, say that we're not doing well in this area. What could we do to improve, to be humble enough to learn from other people and say that we could do this better? So that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:One of the things we did and I'm sure we did it because of Rich Australia, it was 2017, we just opened up a Google Doc and wrote down the names of the people who'd been saved in our church that year, and then we've added to that Google Doc every year not every year, every month or every six weeks, or whenever or not the next person's been saved. We've written their name down and so we can actually see on that document how many people were saved in 2017 to 18 and say, oh, actually not as many people have been saved this year as we hoped for.
Speaker 2:I think there are theological issues behind this and I think, even just remembering that, when God took flesh, what does holiness look like in the flesh? It looks like Jesus and he was an evangelist. You know, when he calls people to follow him, he says I'll teach you to fish for people. You know, teach you to reach the lost. You know, when he left us, he said make disciples full nations. You know, sometimes we think church is about being, you know, pure, pure church. Well, the reason God has delayed the end of the world, extended our lives, put us in the families we're in, in the places we live and the jobs we have, is to reach the lost.
Speaker 2:You know churches, you know, look in 1 Timothy, what are they for? And people say you know, looking one timothy, what are they for? And people say you know, we're um pillars of the truth. They make that sound like it's, you know, in order to battle with other churches, but actually the pillars of the truth, because chapter two, god is the savior, wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth. You know, the purpose of churches is to reach the lost and and it's urgent and we're in a hurry. So I think we've got to start with theology of jesus and the church, that we've separated holiness from evangelism, as if holiness is something different from evangelism, as if holiness is just the absence of wickedness.
Speaker 1:Well, stones don't have sins. Well, that was one of the things that Andrew Hood really thumped on us at the conference. What you mean blessed us with from his word yes. Which is the idea that if I am mature, I will be wanting to see the lost saved. I can't say that I'm mature and not be mature in anguish and striving to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maturity looks like Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, it's not burying my talents under the ground. It's investing everything I have in the work of Jesus.
Speaker 1:You said a couple of nice things. Where are we weak over here? I mean, where have you thought I don't want to do what they're doing?
Speaker 2:It's interesting when you come as a visitor, because you, it's, it's, as I mentioned, it is culturally difficult to climb into a sort of tribe that's healthy, and you'll hear the, the coded language, and I think they, I think they're more and more self-aware of that. You know we're not lining up to salute and adore the pentagon. I mean, you know we mock, uh, I mock that because I find it difficult.
Speaker 1:I'm going to come back and ask you more about the Pentagon in a minute.
Speaker 2:I think the weakness is there are potential weaknesses. You know, I had thought guys don't forget that it's the Holy Spirit, through his word, that grows churches and that's central to everything. And you know, I saw a little podcast from Zoe Earnshaw, who I think the world of actually I think Zoe's, I've known her for many years and she's absolutely terrific and she talked about the danger of the businessification of the church. And she's right. There is a danger that you turn church into a business and that you think that just if you organize and strategize that somehow people will be saved. No, the purpose of the organization in Acts 6 is so that the apostles can dedicate themselves to the word and prayer. Six is so that the apostles can dedicate themselves to the word and prayer. So, you know, the purpose of is to better bring the word of god to people. And, um, I think the criticism that I would have come here with is have people forgotten that it's the holy spirit, through his word, that saves and grows people? But I was just thrilled at the conference, you know andrew heard gave three bible readings. I thought they were outstanding, and I'm not just bigging them up, you know, I just thought they were outstanding. They were deep biblical expositions, drawing together really important topics, you know, insights into the Bible teaching on hell and judgment, and then on the cross and then living by faith, and I thought that was a wonderful context in which to care about strategizing. So I think we need to remember that the purpose of the strategy and I thought that was a wonderful context in which to care about strategizing so I think we need to remember that the purpose of the strategy is not just to get organized but to enable people to hear the word of God I think some of my English friends here. To be honest, having listened to lots of Sydney sermons, I think there's still work to do on preaching and there is a danger that pastors will think if I just learn the right strategies, you know I forget about their preaching. And I've heard senior evangelicals here worry that you know, getting excited about the new thing, a business strategy, will mean that we'll neglect the preaching of God's word. We need both, I mean. I think it's interesting.
Speaker 2:In Act 6, which I spoke on at our own conference, three things happened in Jerusalem, not just one. One is that the apostles devoted themselves to the word of God and prayer, and we need to do both. There's not always a lot of prayer here. I mean, I don't know, maybe everyone's praying at times, but prayer seems to be pretty short and perfunctory and nothing will happen without God. So we need to keep prayerful preparation of the word. Nothing will happen without God. So we need to keep prayerful preparation of the word, particularly work application. I'm sure we're going to talk more about that. So that's the first thing quality Bible teaching, and I don't think you know, I'm not sure we've arrived at that here at this end of the world. There are problems with our preaching as well, lack of application in particular.
Speaker 1:The second thing was they built ministry teams, just to touch on the word issue for a moment. The second thing was they built ministry teams Just stay on the word issue for a moment, because you said to me before that there's something about grasping, really, what the author was saying to his original audience that you think we're weak on.
Speaker 2:Well in the UK, great work from the Proclamation Trust over many years. Well, in the UK, great work from the Proclamation Trust over many years has helped pastors to focus on the evident human authorial intention in books. And you know, because the Bible is literature, you know, not to bring your theological worldview to a text and make it fit it into your own worldview, but actually look at the literary, literary shape of the Bible text you're looking at and think what was the author intending? Of course, sometimes that's explicit. You know one, peter five. You know the end of John 21,. He tells us why he's written the book. So we need to bear that in mind as we interpret it. You can also tell from what's evident in the text. You, you can also tell from what's evident in the text. You know this particular context Paul's in prison. He's writing to a church in Colossae. He's never met them personally. Epaphras, the founding pastor, is with him in prison. What's the worry? The church is standing firm, we know from chapter 2, but he's worried because false teachers are in town and so he's writing that they might stand firm because that's what Epaphras is praying for them. And you can tell that from the text if you work hard at the text and there is a danger, if you ignore that and rush too quickly to systematizing with doctrine and biblical theology, that you come up with sort of summary statements that are true to the Bible but miss the specifics of the text, that you're in. Our danger at the UK, I think, is the other end of that, which is that we think that if we've just established what the melodic line of the text is and we understand what the original author was writing, that we don't then come to conclusions, either doctrinal conclusions and then to application that you can live by. You can't actually live in verses of the Bible. You have to live from the conclusions of the verses of the Bible.
Speaker 2:And I'm sure we'd love to talk more about this, but I did say three things happened in jerusalem. One is the bible. The second was they built ministry teams and of course some of them ended up preaching. But they built ministry teams. They realized they couldn't do all the things that happened. It's vital to engage with the whole of the body. You, you know we're not just bodies full of mouths, we've got arms and legs. And I think one of the problems if you copy city centre training ministries, you end up thinking everybody can be a preacher and you spend your ministry just trying to train preachers. But in most ordinary congregations 95% of the congregations are not going to be preachers, and they're sitting in front of you and the only options you give them is make coffee, look after children I'd rather die or sit on the sound desk and actually they're perfectly competent people with lots of ministry potential. We don't give them a reason to engage, commit, stay, invest in our churches because we're not building ministry teams.
Speaker 2:And then the third thing that happened and again this is a reminder to Bible people the hungry were fed. You know, the apostles didn't say sorry, guys, I will have to ignore the hungry widows because we're bible teachers, um, or we're too busy building teams. They, they loved one another. And again we need to hear that we need to build ministries in which we love one another. In the uk the last 10 years and we haven't learned nothing else We've learned that truth without love is very damaging and we need to recover, investing in ministries that love the church, because by this, people will know that we're his people. So three things happen in Jerusalem. But the purpose of the building of ministry teams is to let those whose job is preaching and teaching concentrate on that.
Speaker 1:Anyway, no, I mean, what I've loved about what you've just said is you've actually anchored.
Speaker 2:I've alienated everybody.
Speaker 1:Well, no you've anchored the building of ministry teams in the strategy of the apostles.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And so I think you're saying what we might be doing here is we need ministry teams, so we should go and work out how to do them.
Speaker 2:There's always a danger of that.
Speaker 1:Whereas you're saying actually look, there's a pattern of ministry in the scriptures, of building ministry teams.
Speaker 2:I think any helpful ideology or ministry approach, if you're not careful, it becomes a thing in itself. And to keep going back to the scriptures to say is this what the scriptures teach? Are we, are we going further from the scriptures? So to the scripture people, I want to you know we're all scripture. But for those who are skeptical of the reach, um passion for ministry, I want to say they are biblical, they wanting to be biblical. But to my friends in reach I want to say don't forget to keep checking, yeah, that your ministries are rooted in the word of god.
Speaker 1:What, what, I found just wanted to pick up on what you've just said there a moment ago, though, if I was to contrast the ministry that I've done prior to coming into contact with them the reach movement and since coming into contact with the REACH movement, I really think my vision for the layman prior to engaging, I really didn't have much for them to do apart from leading a small group, yeah, whereas now I can see there are all sorts of levels of leadership using their gifts that are potentially much better fits for people, much better fits for their gifts and much more useful for the overall growing of the kingdom.
Speaker 2:I think that's true. The only thing I'd add to that sorry to be contrary, but it's not just to give everybody a good time being involved in church.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:It's about reaching the lost, reaching the lost and I think, in the end….
Speaker 1:But we are better at reaching the lost Well.
Speaker 2:I think churches who are focusing on being strategically effective are just reaching more non-Christians. What's ruining the argument is people becoming Christians in large numbers. You know, all the churches that are engaging with this are reaching more people with the gospel. All the churches that are engaging with this are reaching more people with the gospel.
Speaker 1:I mean, that was quite extraordinary, the graph that they put up, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean you can't argue with people becoming Christians. I don't mean so much the numbers. People are becoming Christians in large numbers in these churches and I think that's the challenge. We've just called our conference Churches Reaching the Lost, because I think in the past we've just tried to train individuals to reach the lost and we've missed the fact that churches collectively reach the lost. We do it as an organic body. It's there in the New Testament, isn't it? Romans 12, what's the first example of a life of worship transformed by the grace of God in Romans 12? The first example be sober-minded and respect the body. You know the gifts of the body, but what are we trying to do? Ephesians 4, equip them for ministries that will grow the church in godliness and in number.
Speaker 1:I saw you chatting with Richard Ledbeater, who's your successor at Donald, and I'm imagining that as you walk to the car together and that kind of thing you were talking about well, what do we do differently here? And he's saying well, here's something you used to do, coke, and I'm going to go completely different as a result of listening to this seminar today. Take us under the bonnet of some of those conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Richard Ledby, or Leddy as he's known everywhere, it's wonderful, isn't it that in Leddy, so, both in taking over at dundonald and also taking over at commission, in a guy called andy mason, um, both of them are wonderful, gospel-hearted, bible teaching men who are going to build on the the things that you know. I've managed to start and make them better and um, so, uh, yeah, we're it, and Lady is very skilled in this. I think he gets it better than I do and you know he's an evangelist at heart. He wants to reach the lost and I'm thrilled about that. I mean, how can you not be?
Speaker 2:So, what are some of the takeaways from this? From here? I think he there's been no training in managing people in leading teams for us as pastors. You know, some of the mistakes that I've made in my ministry are about not leading teams very well. And certainly as churches grow and you're building ministry teams, you have to learn, whether you like it or not. I mean, don't call it business, I mean it's all of God's common grace. Some of the wisdom that we can learn from that book from Dave Moore is phenomenal. He's just read that. He commended it to me. I haven't read it, yeah.
Speaker 1:So there you go. We did a Master's Hut with Dave six months ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I met him while I was at the conference, yeah, and what a terrific, what I love. But all kinds of people have got gifts to contribute, because when you're wanting to use all the body, then all kinds of people in different roles have got things both to do but also to contribute wisdom. I mean our conference in the UK. One of the things we've tried to do is to say there's not just a church, a conference for pastors, it's a conference for pastors, it's a conference for pastors and their teams, and so we're trying to provide consultancy and clinics and church assessments and a conference.
Speaker 2:Sorry to get that in there, but we are trying to do those things, but not just for pastors but for the members of the teams, so that all the ministries of church can be healthy and effective Okay.
Speaker 1:Let me push you around on a couple of lines. Be clear about what you're trying to achieve as a church.
Speaker 2:I think you know people. Again, if we're piously passive, we can say why do we need a vision? You know.
Speaker 1:What's the pushback you'll get to that in the UK?
Speaker 2:Anything that's strategic. People say you know something ungodly. You know they'll say you know 1 Corinthians 3, you know it's God who gives the growth. But it's very striking, isn't it? You know I planted and Apollos watered and God gave the growth. In other words, there are things for us to do. God gives the growth through the apostle planting and Apollos watering. It's not just God gave the growth and you didn't do anything. We have to engage and it's hard work. We could talk more about that. But God uses means, he uses people. As we go about planting and watering, god gives the growth.
Speaker 2:So all of the vision is to try and get clear. What are we trying to do? What are we trying to do in this church? Because Christian people are magnificent. They will do anything for a gospel cause. But if they don't know what the gospel cause is, what you can get in a church is people frustrated. They don't know what we're doing collectively.
Speaker 2:You know, if you're just managing from the middle, a pastor will be inundated with people with problems and you know there's always more to do. But people with energy to try and reach the lost will come up with different ideas. Some will say we need to employ a children's worker. Some will say we need to plant a church. Some will say we need to improve the front of the building. And they're all campaigning and you get a divided church and everyone's frustrated staff are frustrated. There's nothing they can get behind. And Craig Hamilton makes clear in his great book on leadership to be fair, it's a big book. I've only read the middle bit. It's brilliant. That middle bit is brilliant. He said all the things I wish I'd said. Anyway, he says as a leader, you know you've got to get. It's your job to help the church understand. What are we going to be doing collectively to try and reach the people in?
Speaker 1:our area.
Speaker 2:And so for us at Dundon, every year we would have a prayer. We divide our AGM out from our vision meeting. So AGM, last prayer meeting of the year when you reflect on what was done over the year, ministry reflections, and then we have an evening of prayer and vision vision and prayer evening.
Speaker 1:And we dream.
Speaker 2:Take responsibility for what do we need to do. That's right. So take responsibility for outcomes. That sounds like you don't care about what God is doing. No, everything's bathed in prayer. But you're saying let's try and clarify. What could we do to reach the lost, to care enough? So let's try and build door-to-door teams. Let's try and visit 1,000 houses in the next year. Let's try and be a more loving church.
Speaker 1:Even those ones. I mean visit 1,000 houses. That's an input towards the big goal of seeing 10 people come to Christ.
Speaker 2:Yes, and if you don't have a goal and you don't aim at nothing, nothing will happen. So you're conscious all the time. This all depends on god. But it's just trying to plan. If we're going to have a hundred people come to christ, we're going to need to have a thousand people in our evening life course. That means we're going to visit 5 000 homes, because one in five will come. How are we going to get a team to visit 5 000 homes? Let's try and get a team and it's amazing Church people who are full of the Spirit and love. The Lord will back it, they'll come out, they'll give to it. It's often embarrassing how committed lay people will be to their ministry teams if you give them a ministry team to be part of.
Speaker 1:The issue of ecosystem. What do you think of that word?
Speaker 2:Oh look, I'm not a very good follower. You know I don't want. You know, it's nimby not invented.
Speaker 1:We should define what ecosystem is before you critique it. Yeah, I'm going to agree with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a healthy idea. I hate all these kind of I don't really like all the business language. It sounds like you're part of a program. You know starting up for a cult, you know what's an ecosystem. It's just a word for a healthy church family and I don't know I might try and reinvent it as in sort of body language, um, but the the benefit of it is, I think, if I understand the way they're thinking, is um, instead of just thinking in terms of five stages to a process called 5Ms or 5Es, why don't you just think before you get to what you're going to do? Why don't you clarify what a healthy church looks like in terms of reaching the lost? Let's give it some descriptions. You know, with five sort of sides to it, you can have six or four, but five Now just digression.
Speaker 1:We'll come back to ecosystem in a sec. But I mean you were telling me you were sitting around five years ago or something with a group of church leaders in the UK and you came up with 30 things that a healthy church should have. But actually it is helpful to. That's too many, you can't have 30 goals.
Speaker 2:No, we came up with seven actually in the end, and then we discovered that five within the church were exactly the same as the five Ms Right.
Speaker 1:Which are things like what were your five?
Speaker 2:Well, our five were evangelise. Mission so serve, that is membership. No membership. Then instruct, that is maturity, yeah. And then train, which is the same as ministry, and then worship, which is the same as magnification.
Speaker 1:So exactly the same five in a different way, and then you would think I don't like this idea.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, so we had our word because we also had network the city that is, church planting and support the cause that is world mission. But it was seven. It's a bit similar to have five, so ladies taking the church back to five. But all of that comes from what is a healthy church and the ecosystem is just observing that sometimes you get problems in one area that are actually the result of a weakness somewhere else, a bit like in the body, where you know I've got backache but it's actually because I've got hamstring problems, yeah. Or you know I've got a problem and I've got I have got a problem on this knee, yeah, and the reason is because I had an operation on that knee and it.
Speaker 1:You've been doing more work on the other and it's just thinking about how does the church family work together?
Speaker 2:that's healthy, isn't? It's thinking, you know? Is there a lack of evangelism and I just need to bash the congregation.
Speaker 1:Do more evangelism or is it people feeling unloved?
Speaker 2:unloved they're feeling unloved and and they feel useless and they couldn't do it and actually the reason they're not having a go evangelistically is because I haven't loved them. I don't love this place because they don't love me. That's right, that kind of thing. So I think that's healthy. So I think it's not about the labels. But I think what I realise is most pastors godly pastors are not so cynical and say well, I'm not coming because I don't believe in ecosystems. They're saying, actually I care enough for my people and I want to reach my community. I want to try and be useful to the Lord in saving people, not just running church. So I'm going to suck it up and listen to some healthy ways and some of the things I heard this year just how to run church which is both deep and warm.
Speaker 1:We've actually got Toby and Olivia, who gave that seminar coming in next week on the Pastor's Heart, to talk about that. Well, you want to listen to that. It's great. That was a fantastic presentation. It was.
Speaker 2:It was Just helping. But again, what it's doing it's sharing wisdom. And last year at Reach, we launched last year just saying all we're trying to do is share wisdom. You can call it best practice, but it's not just best practice, godly wisdom, it's biblical principles and then working them out in a British context, in different contexts. So the conference in the UK we've had rave people have really loved it.
Speaker 2:Partly it's not because we're trying to tell everybody what to do. I think we're all a bit weary of being bossed around, do this, do that. But it is hearing from ministries that are effective how did you do that and what worked? And lots of things we tried didn't. So let's be willing and humble enough to learn from people where it's worked. And I thought the REACH conference was really, really godly and effective.
Speaker 2:And for those I do want to remind you, there are those who will be skeptical because it's all about preaching. And yes, we need to keep preaching central. But the reason the apostles built teams was so that preaching could be central. You know senior pastors burning out because they're running around like headless chickens trying to do everything because they haven't built teams. And so actually you're protecting senior pastors, you're also delegating so that senior assistant pastors can stay a bit longer rather than moving on every three years. Actually give them real authority to build teams, even budgets, you know. Actually give people freedom to grow ministries, feel responsible for them and learn how to lead a ministry and then actually sometimes you don't get so much turnover of staff, less frustration and the senior pastors don't burn out and actually preach better sermons.
Speaker 1:So there's lots to say Thanks very much for coming in Pleasure. Richard Cokin has been my guest and he's got that string of things that we could say about Richard, founding pastor of Dundonald Church in the UK, but he's now the leader of Reach UK. My name's Dominic Steele. You've been with us on. The Pastor is Hard. We're looking forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon when we'll be talking to Toby Neill and Olivia Chapman about deep and warm.
