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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on <a href="https://www.facebook.com/thepastorsheart">Facebook</a> then on <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@ThePastorsHeart">YouTube</a> and on our <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> website and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Tears, Questions and Hope - When a senior pastor takes their own life? Keith Condie & Trinette Stanley
Tears, Questions and Hope - When a senior pastor takes their own life? Keith Condie & Trinette Stanley
In the last few months two senior evangelical leaders have taken their own lives.
The Archbishop’s letter said ‘It is with deep sadness that I write to inform you of the death of a colleague and friend … who took his own life on Tuesday and our hearts are heavy at this time as we come before God with our tears, questions and … hope in the promise of resurrection.’
We react with a range of questions: Should I have known? Could I have done more? What do I say to the church? What do I say to the world, but most importantly where is God?
Keith Condie, from Anglican Deaconess Ministry’s Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute and Trinette Stanley, Mental Health Educator with Anglicare are our guests.
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Where was God? Suicide and senior leadership. It is the pastors Haas and Dominic Steele. Our guests today, Keith Condy and Trinette Stanley. In the last couple of months, two senior evangelical leaders have taken their own life. The Archbishop of the relevant diocese wrote to the clergy of the death of one of the parish ministers. It is with deep sadness that I write to inform you of the death of a colleague and friend who took his own life on Tuesday, and our hearts are heavy at this time as we come before God with our tears, questions, and hope in the promise of the resurrection. Lots of us are grappling with a whole range of questions. He was my colleague, my friend, lecturer, pastor, and somehow he couldn't manage. And should I have known? Could I have known? Should I have done more? Could I have done more? And what do I say, should I say to others, to the church, to the non-Christian world, and where was God? There's a whole range of questions, and maybe you're affected, but even if you weren't, I want to encourage you not to skip this, not to look away. There's a sense that no one wants to talk about this topic until suddenly we have to, and it is much better to have this discussion when we're not in the middle of it. I've asked two of the smartest people I know on this topic to come and talk today, Keith Condy from Anglican Deaconess Ministries Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute, and Trinette Stanley, the mental health educator with Anglicare. Keith, let's start with you. And I'm just riffing off the Archbishop's letter, and um the pastor's heart is heavy with uh tears, questions, and hope.
SPEAKER_03:Um, absolutely, Dominic. Um, my heart's heavy uh in response to these situations, and uh it's devastating. Suicide is always horrific. Um, we need to understand that. And anyone who's had any contact with anybody who has lost their life uh knows the ripple effects. It spreads, it impacts um immediate family, of course, but it goes much wider than that. And in church communities, um, you know, people know a lot of people. And there are a huge number of people that are affected by events like this, and many, many, many very heavy hearts.
SPEAKER_01:Trinette, this is you're deeply involved in this kind of stuff all the time. And yeah, your heart in this.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's been it's been very heavy as well. Um, I didn't know uh the the gentlemen who have lost their life just recently, personally, but my heart's still heavy. Um, particularly when we think about the church as a place of hope. How can people in our churches feel so hopeless that they think about suicide? Um, why are we not talking about this? Why are we not engaging in a conversation around it? Where does Jesus fit in all of this? Those questions swirl around. And I I do spend a lot of time talking about this, but I've still got those questions when we lose people to suicide.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, and you've been dealing with um a pastoral incident in the last few weeks as well, yeah. Where this has happened.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, just in this last week, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um let's go first to you, Keith. And how is it different when we're talking about the key leader of a church? And then I'll ask you the same question, Trinidad.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think um we've got a lot of confidence in our leaders. We look to our leaders. Um we want uh as God's people, we we we want shepherding. We have our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, but uh he and his God in his kindness has given us under shepherds. And those people we do, we look to them, we expect things of them, and often we think they've got it all together. And often they communicate that message that they've pretty much got it all together. But um senior ministers, ministers, like any other human being, they're a human being, and uh we've all got our vulnerabilities, we've all got our limits, there are things that we can cope with, there are things that we we really struggle to cope with. And um and and yes, so so I think, and I think sometimes uh in our particular church cultures, we we expect a lot of the minister, and the minister expects a lot of himself. And you know, everyone wants to zealously do the Lord's work, they want to be faithful in that task, they want to see, you know, their church grow and things happen. And you know, what if they're not doing it quite so well? You know, whether it's whether it's the um their own mental health, whether it's particular pressures that they're under, whether um, you know, relationship difficulties and struggles, there are other facts. Suicide's very, very complex. There's no simple sort of explanations for why this happens. And but this swirling around of factors, um, when it does impact a senior minister and they feel like there's no one they can turn to, perhaps, or there's no one, you know, speaking to them, um, caring for them, uh it it it it has the impact that it has on another human being who is really feels like they're I've lost hope. And um, of course, then there can be this awful repercussion. But as I said, uh the I I think the impact can spread further than it often does with other people who take their life.
SPEAKER_01:When it's the key leader.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, when it's the key leader. Trinidad.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think there are certain pressures and struggles that um people in ministry broadly, but senior ministers um in particular face. Um, and that's shown in the research as well that one of the highest groups that is at risk of burnout is people in ministry. And I think that's because there is a particular mix of factors that come into play. Combine that with the fact that often um people in ministry don't necessarily have a lot of confidence or a lot of friends that they feel that they can be really vulnerable with because there is a complexity of work mixed in with life, mixed in with housing, mixed in with friendship. Like it's very complex. So where do they go? And and how can someone share that they're not perhaps holding it together? Because they do have those expectations of themselves, that they will be the pastor under God of this flock that has been entrusted to them. And that's a that's a heavy load that a that a pastor has to carry. And if he's trying to carry that by himself, then it makes sense that sometimes it it becomes too heavy.
SPEAKER_01:Um Yeah. I'm I mean, I thought we might push into this by just playing a little clip from Peter Adam, uh, former senior minister at St. Jude's in Carlton, former principal of uh Ridley Theological College. And uh he and I had a conversation uh a couple of years ago now, and he talked about um uh the struggle of a senior minister having few friends.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I often ask ministers if they have any good friends, and their reply is usually well, I know lots of people, we work together. Um no, I don't suppose I do. How can we do better at that? Uh well because you sound like you've you've you've made that a priority over a long time. I have, or another way of saying is God has been so generous to me, and I have ten what I would regard as ten really good friends with whom I can talk per perfectly openly, whom I could contact at any time of day or night if I needed to. And they you know, one of them would be able to help me at least. Yeah. What's God done with your heart on a on the journey through depression that that you've been on? Yes, I I uh my depression began in 87. Uh so it's a long-term issue for me. Uh when I was first depressed, I was suicidal. Uh I thought God had abandoned me. And my motive for suicide was I didn't I don't want to be a nuisance to people. For me. Yeah, exactly. So it was a very instructive time for me because I had to decide. Oh, and I would think each day I thought I'd done something like walk down the street and cut somebody up. But I couldn't remember what I'd done, but I felt that guilt. So there was this immense guilt, false guilt, it was just awful. And what I had to decide was, do I believe what I feel about myself or what the Bible says about me? And that was liberating because I decided I'd I'd rule my perception of myself by the Bible, not by my feelings. Yeah. So at this point, I don't trust my heart because my heart is warped, it's diseased, it doesn't it doesn't hear some things, it it distorts things. And that's a kind of medic it's a medical problem of my body. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Not a spiritual problem. Well that's Peter Adam, former principal of Ridley College, and he's speaking very vulnerably about what's going on in his heart. Yours. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And um I would commend him for that that vulnerability. Um we we need that, you know, we need to actually be able to say, this is what's going on for me.
SPEAKER_01:And I mean, and I feel it in that I come home and my day has been full of relationships and people all day, and I'm just not looking for extra friends. And yet I probably ought to be.
SPEAKER_03:Um, Dominico, I think it comes down to you know what Peter said about if he's in trouble, there's 10 people he feels like he can call, night or day. Um, do we have people in our life who when we we do are feeling overwhelmed and when we're in trouble, we can reach out to? I think that's the key thing.
SPEAKER_01:10 seems like a lot to me.
SPEAKER_03:I think 10 seems like I I don't have 10 people like that in my life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't think I do either.
SPEAKER_03:But I I certainly have some. And um, and to me that's very, very important and very significant. And uh those friends mean a lot.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm imagining, particularly I mean, if you're in a church where if you're like there's really complex politics, yes, and you're not feeling like you can be vulnerable with the people in your church, then I mean, in my situation, I've been here for a long time, there's a lot of goodwill, and I've got some really good friends here, but many people are not in that situation.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, and and but I just want to say I think we need we need those people we can reach out to.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Because we're built for relationships with each other. And I think sometimes the pastor, the minister, is always giving in relationship, and that's right and that's proper. But who are the people who can give to the pastor in relationship? Who are those people that you know have always got your back? Who are those people that you can turn to and be completely honest with and know that there's going to be no judgment, no condemnation, there's gonna be space held for all of those things that you need to say that need to be voiced in order that they be processed.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like, I mean, I'm I'm looking for you to help me understand this. On the one hand, my theology says we as a local church should be working together to encourage each other in Christ, and the other elders of the local church should be standing with the paid pastor to support and care for him. And yet I do think there's probably another thing going on of we pay him to have his act together to serve us. Do you know?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think it this is very complex. It is, and I I agree. I I I want to see the local church operate like that, where you know, the ministry is part of this community where it's genuine one-another ministry where he's not just the one constantly giving, but he's also receiving in that context. Um, it ought to be like that. And you know, it sounds like as you said, you you know, you've got some god goodwill and people are there and they're gonna help you and support you. But um, but sometimes, you know, this very complex church situation, politics, whatever else going on, and maybe it's people outside of that context who who are needed for particular periods of time.
SPEAKER_04:And potentially in smaller churches as well, it's not just politics, it's family relations. You know, there might be the senior minister who has a brother-in-law who's a warden, or who has other members who are on parish council or or other key members of the church. And so can we openly discuss everything, or should we openly discuss everything? Yes, how do these other dynamics come to play as well?
SPEAKER_03:And I don't think vulnerability means you share everything about what's going on for you with everybody. It's it's not that it's um it's you know, there's an appropriateness because the because the you know, the shepherd of the flock is is a model of Christian life, setting an example of godly living, um, you know, there are some things that are not appropriate, you know, to be completely open about with everybody. But are there some people who you know when those those those times when you're not doing so well, there is someone that you can reach out to who um will who will have you back, as Trinette says.
SPEAKER_01:Peter was vulnerable in that exchange there. I um I remember in the wake of the court case that I went through in 2008, 9, and um and we had a quite difficult season here domestically as well in this church. And I walked up to Parramatta Road and I was standing at the traffic lights and a bus zoomed past and missed me by that much. And I remember thinking, Oh, that's a shame. Um, in terms of it would have it would have been an accident, it wouldn't have been a sin, do you know? Um, but all my problems would have been solved, and and that to to to live as Christ, to die as gain, to be better, to go to heaven and all that kind of thing. And and I was oh, I'm not in a good place at the moment if I'm thinking like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Do you want to Yeah, and and and and clearly, you know, that was that was a very hard time. And and this is the thing about the Christian hope is I've had people say to me, I just want to go home. I want to be with all this. It's too hard.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And the thing about suicide is it's not that people want to die, they want to escape that pain. They want to get away from that. It's just it's too overwhelming, and they think this is the the only option.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I'm glad that you there's a bus missed, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I'm glad that you, yeah, you know, step back from that bus.
SPEAKER_01:The reality is sorry, it wasn't stepping forward for the bus. It was just I was just crossing the road.
SPEAKER_03:You know, but no, no, I appreciate that, but I'm I'm I'm I'm very glad that it did miss, Dominic. 13%, about 13% of the population, the Australian population, in their lifetime will have significant, like serious suicidal thoughts. So this is not uncommon. Um, not an uncommon thing.
SPEAKER_01:And so I mean Peter Adams is quite usual at that point. Yeah. So keep going.
SPEAKER_04:I was gonna say that in the depth of crisis, when you are feeling like that, your thinking becomes really constricted as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:And so, and we know, do we not, that Satan is the father of lies. So Satan will then start to give us some thoughts that aren't actually true. So perhaps it's actually better if I'm not here because I would be less of a burden to my family. Perhaps I'm not able to passer my flock as well as I should. So if I take myself out of the picture, then someone else can passer them through this. I'm, you know, though those kind of thoughts, because our thinking becomes stricted, constricted, that those thoughts then become really large in our frame. And we need to be on guard against that. The best way that we can be on guard against that is to have trusted people who can speak truth and hope into our lives.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, if we can't think back to what Peter Adams said, I need to listen to the scriptures, not to what's going on. You want to what what do the scriptures teach me?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, the you know, the scriptures teach us that as Peter said, um, I'm a beloved child of God. This is who I am. Um, it's not about my performance. It's not how well my church grows, how successful my ministry is. These are not the things that define me. Although there is a lot of pressure to allow those things to define us. And so going back to the scriptures and and and really allowing those truths and the fact, the fact that God is with us in in the midst, that he's close to the brokenhearted in the midst of our difficulties, he is not removed from that. Um these are wonderful truths that I think trying to allow them to impinge upon our consciousness. But as you say, when we're in that dark place, it's very, very hard. And we need we need those outside voices reminding us of the truth of the scriptures.
SPEAKER_01:Trinette, you go in and help churches in the wake of uh a terrible moment like this. What's the advice that you give at this point? And then we're we're going to apply it to senior ministers in a moment and what the variation, what's the general advice, you know, that that you've been giving this week, if you like?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um the temptation, I mean, there's lots of things that we could say, but I think um what the witness that scripture gives us is that we are embodied beings with emotions. And so in the aftermath of an event like this, we have to create an appropriate time and space for all those emotions to be heard, to be spoken, um, to be felt. So are you angry? That's fine. That's a normal response. Are you upset? Are you confused? Do you have questions? All of those are normal responses. And we need to be careful that we don't move too quickly from those responses. We need to, we need to sit in that. We need to hold um the weight of those responses in the aftermath. I think of Psalm 13 of King David. He spends two-thirds of his psalm crying out to God, asking for help, asking, why? Why is this happening? You've brought me to this point, God, why is it happening? And then in the end, he says, But I know that you're good. I know that you are with me. I know that this is purposeful. Sometimes I think in the aftermath of events, we try and move to the God is good piece too quickly. But I think there's a really important piece that we sit in all the confusion of the moment because it is really confusing. It's heartbreaking, it's devastating. Let's feel that together. As a community of God's people, then when the time is right, we then hold hope for the community of God's people together as well. So I can't remember what your question is, but I think in the aftermath of a devastating event like this, we do need to allow space for all of those emotions and all of those questions. I think we also need to be very aware, like Keith said, 13% of the Australian population make serious thoughts of suicide. So there will be other people in our churches who are wrestling with mental ill health, who are perhaps wrestling with thoughts of suicide. How do we care for them in this moment as well? And I don't think there's any one particular way that we can do that, but being aware that there will be people in our congregations, in our networks who find this particularly hard because of their own experience, we need to be aware of caring for them. The research shows that there is at least 135 people who are significantly impacted by every death by suicide.
SPEAKER_01:And I would have thought more in a church community where the networks are tighter.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely. Even more so when it is one of the senior leaders as well. And perhaps has been pastoring five, six, seven, like who knows how many people.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And a number of times in that sermon I heard you say, if you're struggling, reach out.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. I think that's really important that we all hear this message. If you're in trouble, please reach out. At the same time, we need to reach out to those who we're concerned about. And um uh lots of people think you can never ask the suicide question. You'll just put the idea in someone's head. The research says the opposite that if you have concern for somebody to say, have you had any thoughts of taking your life? Um, and as Trinette said, in the aftermath of a suicide, it's actually a risk period for others. So this is this is when we we we need to be, you know, it's a scary question to ask for most of us, but being prepared to ask that question can save lives. The reality is um the nearly every single person is ambivalent about taking their life. By that I mean they have reasons to live as well as the reasons that they think they they want to die. And tapping into that ambivalence and the reasons for them to continue living and um aspects of hope, trying to re-engage hope in them, that's a really important thing to do. So asking that question, if you're terrified about asking the question, and you know what if they say yes, and they do say yes, um, you can always ring Lifeline together. One, three, one, one, one, four. Say, okay, we're gonna call Lifeline and we're gonna talk to them, and they'll help us work out what to do from here. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, what you're talking about is if you're like tackling the issue head on in personal conversation. Yes. What about facing the issue head on in public? Um, let's go to you first, Trinette. Uh in in the in the in the funeral or in an announcement at church, or I mean even the way the archbishop here has been quite frank and honest in his uh ad clericum letter to the clergy of his diocese.
SPEAKER_04:I think I mean from my perspective, Keith, you can correct me if I'm off the mark. I think it I think there is a time and a place and an appropriateness to acknowledge that this is a suicide death. Um I don't think it's appropriate nor helpful to discuss how a person took their life, but to discuss the fact that there was a hopelessness that they felt that that suicide was the answer to. There's an appropriateness to that because there is a realness into doing life together where we have to acknowledge that life is hard. You know, Jesus says, you know, come if you follow me, life is going to be hard for one reason or another. Um, and God doesn't save us and then send us on our own journey. He saves us, puts us in community so that we can run the race together. And so acknowledging that that this is a suicide, that other people might be feeling that, I think there's an appropriate appropriateness to that. Um, we need to talk about the person as well. Sometimes in um in grief, we feel like, oh, we shouldn't bring this person up, or we shouldn't mention this, or we shouldn't talk about them. But there's actually something really um healing when we do talk about the person, what they meant to us, um, who they were, funny stories. I I had um it wasn't suicide, but I had my brother-in-law pass away late last year. And in between our, in between him passing and the funeral, we spent a lot of time telling silly stories about him. And I think that actually honored his memory because he lived a life. He had a wife, children. Those stories that we tell and that we remind each other of is really important. I just I said to someone just this morning um after the suicide death of someone last week, uh, she was just like, Oh, we keep on keeping on. And I was like, Yes, but it's also okay not to, because it honors that person's memory when we grieve them well because they meant a lot to you.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:And so, yes, we do like time doesn't stop. For the family, it definitely feels like it stops. Yes, but time doesn't stop, and we need to create space where we honor that person, we talk about that person because they were a person, they were connected in our communities. We need to mourn that, we need to talk about them as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, keep the public in it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think I'd say um I I agree, Trinette. I think let's be as open as possible. I suppose the caveat I would put is um there's times for the sake of family, um, young children, where what parents, for example, might want to communicate to their children public announcements. Uh, that's not the we've just got to take that into account.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I think in terms of what's said publicly. But overall, this is it does not help to have this as a taboo subject. And I think in our Christian communities, as much as possible, let's let's be as open as is appropriate for the particular occasion and context. Um, a uh an archbishop writing to his clergy explaining the exact nature.
SPEAKER_01:That's a good letter.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's a very good letter. Yeah. I think that's entirely appropriate. But um, but yeah. But there's I think there are some contexts where there are sensitivities involved that we need to recognise. So there's there's wisdom here, I think.
SPEAKER_01:I'm I'm just thinking, I mean, we would say that the gospel is at, if you like, its strongest point um in the midst of suffering and and actually by the edge of the grave. Do you know? And so uh to actually show that even in this terrible moment, the gospel has a has a has something to say that other worldviews don't.
SPEAKER_03:So powerfully end of Romans 8. That list of things that cannot separate us from the love of Christ. Uh depends on your the translation you read. Trouble could be translated distress, psychological distress is in in view here. Psychological distress does not separate us from the love of Christ. Um, death does not separate us from the love of Christ. Uh suicide is not the unforgivable sin, but we must not send the message that this is this is a via this is a good option. It is not. It is not, it's the wrong thing to do. But people, as Trinetta said, people find themselves in very desperate situations, their thinking is narrowed, they are not thinking clearly, um, and not thinking with their right mind. They're not thinking with their right mind. And they do something that um yeah that causes huge consequences.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What about the the aftermath? Because I'm imagining that um in the Christian communities where this has happened and it's been a senior leader, it's gonna it's a long journey.
SPEAKER_04:It is a long journey with lots of unanswered questions that perhaps will never be answered.
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_04:Um, and that's really difficult. And I think I'll go back to the importance of working this through, like journeying through this together as a community of God's people.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:Um there is a a time and a place where perhaps we all lose hope, and so we need the community of God's people to carry that hope for us when we can't carry it ourselves. Um, there is a time and a place where we carry each other, or as Paul talks about in Galatians 6, we bear each other's burdens. Um we we I think we need to do this together. Um, and there will be times when people in the church can do that more than others, but that's the beauty of being in a church that we are working together.
SPEAKER_03:Some will be up, some will be down. Um, those who are doing better can get alongside those who are really struggling. And this comes in waves, it's ups and downs, and it's this is not a straightforward trajectory.
SPEAKER_04:Um, and there's also no time frame.
SPEAKER_03:There's no time frame. Um But but there are there are there are profound biblical truths in the midst that God is with us in the midst of this, and you know, we don't jump quickly to trite answers, we let people experience the depth of what they're going through. There is real lament in this situation, but um, but yes, there is that time and place where the reminders of of God being with us through these dark valleys, um we need that message as well.
SPEAKER_01:In the beginning, I raised the question, I'm gonna put it to you now. Um, I'm imagining people are going to be thinking, should I have known? Could I have known? Should I have done more? Should I have pushed in more? And having thoughts and feelings of guilt. Yeah, Trinette.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, like I said, there will always be questions after an event like this, and and some of those questions are right and proper to ask. Um I think I would say it's unfair of us to be holding ourselves to account for things that we should have done if we didn't know. So if we've got someone in our life who has died by suicide and we didn't pick up on the warning signs, how do we know to ask? Perhaps those signs weren't clear for us. So we need to be gentle with ourselves in in these questions and these ponderings as well. Um we also do we shouldn't hold ourselves to account, our past selves to account with what we now know. So Keith has shared with us, you know, asking the question about suicide is right and proper and helpful. If we didn't know that before, if we thought we would actually be doing harm before, then we can't hold past self to account for what we now know. Um and the good news about God's grace is that it is all-encompassing. So if we are feeling guilt or distress about those things, God's grace is big enough for that as well.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that's very helpful. I mean, that in the way that I think back of all sorts of sins and errors in my past that are covered by the blood of Jesus, yeah. Then this one too, this pastoral if if it is a pastoral fail, then it is too covered by the by the blood of Jesus.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely. And in God's grace, then next time we know a little bit more. Next time perhaps we'll be a bit more confident to ask that question, to come alongside, to be a bit more vulnerable. Yes, Keith.
SPEAKER_03:And when you say, you know, could I have done more? I've I feel like that with all of my life.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:There's so many aspects of my life. I could have done more.
SPEAKER_01:Um and we would say in Christian ministry, I just look at every aspect of this church and I think there's more that needs to be done here, and there's more that needs to be done there, and there's more that there's more that needs to be done every area of this church. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And again, sometimes in those situations, the guilt feelings will be there. And yes, let's acknowledge that, and we might need to sit in that, and that might take some processing and some time, and it might, you know, it might go away for a while and then come back again. That's that's okay. But again, let's let biblical truth speak into this that God's grace is there, God understands our failings, our imperfections, and um there is a time when we appropriately can say, okay, I might have made a mistake, but this is now in the Lord's hands, and I I I can let it go.
SPEAKER_04:I think it's really important to remember that in those as well, God doesn't hold us at arm's distance. No. He actually comes to us, he is drawn to us in our distress, in our grief, in our guilt. He's not he's not going, oh, you should have done better. He's going, it's okay. I got this, I'm here with you in this. And we need to rest in in the tenderness and the compassion of Jesus in those moments. Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Keith, I'm imagining that there are people with us who have um uh just been through caring for people and caring about uh people and are in all sorts of moments on the grief cycle. Um uh there are people who are in close family situations um who are watching or listening to this program at the moment. Why don't you lead in prayer um for those people, but also for the person who's just finding it, the senior leader who's just finding it really hard at the moment.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'd love to do that. Let me pray. Our gracious God and loving heavenly Father, we do thank you that you are the God who cares for the brokenhearted, who draws near to us in our weakness, uh in our pain, in our grief, in our despair. Father, you don't turn your back, but you come close. And Father, I just pray that you would draw near to those who feel overwhelmed or distressed in um some way at the moment due to the impact of loss upon them. Or for those ministers uh who are listening who are just finding things really hard. Father, please be our rock, our refuge, our strength. Father, for those of us who are doing okay, please give us eyes to see need around us and to be willing uh to seek to to reach out and um ask questions and provide support where we can. And Father, we if we are really struggling, please help us to be willing to have a conversation. And thank you, Father, that in our Lord Jesus our hope is strong, steadfast and sure, and that nothing can separate us from your love shown to us in our precious Lord Jesus Christ. And we pray in his name. Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_01:Trinette Stanley has been my guest, mental health educator with Anglicare, along with Keith Condy from the Anglican Deaconess Ministries Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute. My name is Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the Pastor's Heart, and we will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
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