From Canterbury to Abuja - with Paul Donison and Jodie McNeill

We’re just three weeks away from what may prove to be one of the most significant gatherings of Anglican leaders in a generation — as bishops, clergy and lay representatives from across the world meet in Abuja to chart the future of global Anglicanism.

We preview the conference being led by Global Anglican Futures Conference (GAFCON), and explore how its proposed “reordering” of the Anglican Communion compares with the approach of the Global South Fellowship of Anglicans.

With the centre of Anglican Christianity now firmly in the majority world, the conference in Abjua, Nigeria brings together a broad representative cross-section of the global church.

Our guests are Paul Donison, General Secretary of the GAFCON movement, and Gafcon Operations Manager Jodie McNeill, who is helping coordinate the gathering. 

The Pastor’s Heart coverage of the Global Anglians Abuja conference is brought to you by Anglican Aid.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:07

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A Council Of Bishops, Clergy, Laity

SPEAKER_07 2:25

Pulling together that big conference in three weeks' time. Well, the epicenter of Anglican Christianity has shifted from Canterbury to Africa. And Paul Donison, it is on in three weeks' time.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

It is on, and I think you're absolutely right, Dominic. This could be one of the most influential moments, you know, since the Reformation for Anglicans, for English Christians, uh, within that Protestant tradition. Um this is a moment where we're having hundreds of bishops around the world, uh, some wives, some clergy, some laity gathering, and we're really going to sit and listen. It's it's it's kind of an Acts 15 moment, at least that's what we're praying for. The church coming together in council under the governance of the Holy Spirit to say how are we supposed to move forward in mission.

SPEAKER_07 3:11

Now you've said two things new in that sentence. You said not just bishops, but also clergy and laity. And and so we're approaching something of a synodical moment. And uh and also just the idea of deliberation for in the past, the GAFCON conferences have been more plenary and then a summary statement from an internal committee. Talk to me about those two new bits of information. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Consultation Over Plenary Statements

SPEAKER_04 3:38

Yeah, it's uh it's a whole new uh not new direction, I would say, for our G conferences, our mini conferences between the big every five-year conferences to include now not just bishops but clergy and laity. And it creates a lot of extra work for uh the operations team, more visas, more uh invitations to send out, more bursaries to fundraise. But it really is meant to be a gathering of the whole of the church.

SPEAKER_07 4:00

So I was just saying over at the year off shop where you guys were grabbing lunch, that uh he has learned more about the Nigerian visa system than he ever wanted to uh it's it's it's incredible.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

And there's it's it's an exercise in in uh in a lot of prayer. And uh so so thankful for the faithful work of the global team and the Nigerian local team that's doing so much work to host us well. But this idea that we're gonna have a real sense that the church is not just bishops, not just primates, but clergy and laity together. And as we meet together in council, then actually having a consultation, not just listening to plenary talks and breaking into provinces like we have in our big conferences and talking through statements, which have been very good and very helpful and have felt like there's a consultation piece, but this is an ongoing consultation throughout the conference. So after the plenary talks, there'll be opportunity for groups to break away, talk, deliberate, pray, send feedback into a statement committee. And so by the time we actually have a statement for the conference, our hope is the whole of the church together will have can consulted, uh deliberated, uh prayerfully discerned what the Spirit is saying to the church.

Global Leadership Beyond Canterbury

SPEAKER_07 5:09

And there's not just uh proposed that a statement would come out of this, but um a lead primate.

Inside The Week’s Program

SPEAKER_04 5:16

Well, one of the things we said in the Macquarie meeting, uh the Martyr's Day Statement. That's right. Macquarie meeting uh in October October 16th, the Martyr's Day statement. One of the things that came out of that, uh a statement that said a whole bunch of things that we've said for many, many years in GAFCON. Um nothing new per se, but maybe with a little more uh of a of a unity to these statements in one document, and with a bit more of a forward-thinking edge to it, saying it's the time is now, the future is here. But one of the statements was around ultimate leadership for the global church, a global leadership for a global church instead of a Canterbury colonial leadership for a global church. The epicenter of Christianity has moved away from the West into Africa, Southeast Asia, Latin America. But this language of Primates in Paris, that the chairman of the Primates Council coming out of this conference would be, using that loaded language, the first among equals. Uh, and we have leaned in that direction, but we've never actually said this is the time. And so this is the hope and the plan for G26 is that all the primates of the communion that gather that can sign the Jerusalem Declaration that is that we're with GAFCON, we're with this global Anglican communion moving forward, uh, that they'll together elect a Primus in Paris. And the chairman will then be that global leader uh to hold together the gathering of the church.

SPEAKER_07 6:38

Let's come back to that a moment in a moment. Uh Jody, take us through the program for the week because um I mean people have heard about it, all that kind of thing that's gonna be on, but it's just kind of it's gonna be on. What's the next line?

Expounding The Martyrs Day Statement

SPEAKER_05 6:51

Well, we're up to version 17 of the program at the moment, and uh, and I I'm I'm thinking it's gonna have a two at the front of it by the time we've finished it. It it is a moving target in that sense. Uh the main programme begins on the Tuesday evening with an opening ceremony uh and an opening service. The next three days will be in the um uh at the St. Matthias House, which is the main church house of the whole of the Church of Nigeria, Anglican Communion. They've got a wonderful auditorium there that we'll be based at. And essentially each day we'll start with morning prayer, the Bible talk. Then the teachers for the Bible talk?

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Yeah, we've got Archbishop Eggbunu, Archbishop Fape, and then we've got Richard Condy. Richard Condy from Tasmania.

SPEAKER_07 7:34

Two Nigerians and an Australian.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Yeah, for the for the morning Bible talks.

SPEAKER_05 7:37

Okay, that's right. And then uh on the on the Wednesday, we're going to have uh the first session will be three speakers, followed by a consultation session, then followed by three speakers and a consultation session. Then the next day we'll have a similar kind of structure. So we'll end up having twelve different speakers. That's correct. From all around the world.

SPEAKER_07 7:58

That's right. What kind of topics? Yeah. And then I I think you're saying twelve presenters that then spur us on into discussions about that area.

From Kigali’s Hopes To Abuja’s Urgency

SPEAKER_05 8:07

That's right. I mean, essentially what we've done is we've taken the statement from October 16 and we've broken it up into the 12 different parts. So there's the eight points, and then there's the opening and closing section. And essentially what the plan is is that we'll be expounding this statement and then presenting it to the group. And then the group has an opportunity to then think about it and re f and reflect back prayerfully and as a group, everybody in that room will have a voice to be able to then say this is how we are reacting to a statement that came out several months ago and has set the foundation for the whole of the event.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Aaron Ross Powell And the idea which is exciting is at the end of the Marter's A statement it says basically come to Abuja, come to G26. And we will work out all the particulars, we'll work out the future, uh, we will discern together. And that was the end of the statement. People have sort of misread the statement, at least initially, as a sort of a final statement, a definitive statement. That's it. This is this is what GAFCON has said. No, what the statement says is come to Abuja, come talk about it. Let's have a consultation.

SPEAKER_07 9:12

So what's the, I mean, at least hypothetically, it could be that something completely different comes out.

SPEAKER_04 9:17

Well, exactly. The the the hope will be there there could be things that we said uh that could be said better. There's some things we said that might be uh pulled out. There might be, I'm sure, things we didn't say that need to be said. And so the hope is that by the end of the conference, we'll have a statement that will have had, as Jody said, the the foundation will have been laid by the uh the Macquarie statement, by the the Martyrs Day statement. But this will then be a truly global, consulted and consultative kind of statement that comes out that says here's where we're going. And it can be very exciting because it will say that the global church really is speaking together.

SPEAKER_07 9:55

Um now uh I want to take you back to Kigali. And I mean, for me it kind of feels like what we're gonna do in or what you're gonna do in Abuja is what I wanted to happen in Kigali. Um and that I you took me right to this point of this was about to happen in Kigali, and then we didn't quite get there. Do you agree with that read, Paul?

GAFCON And Global South: One Future?

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Absolutely. I remember being in Kigali and and feeling at the end of the yeah. I mean, you were a delegate like me at that point. Yeah, and I felt at the end of the conference, I mean, always just the joy of being together, these these large global conferences. My first one was in Nairobi in 2013, and then Jerusalem in 18. Kigali 23, I felt like we had so much momentum. And then by the time we got to the end of the conference, there was a great expectation that almost the next day there'd be a new set of statements from the primates or or or you know, there'd be there'd be a major news release. And instead, we all sort of waited. And waited. And waited and waited. And and I think that's what GAFCON uh the leadership of GAFCON. When I say the leadership of GAFCON, I mean not just the primates, our chairman Archbishop Umbanda, our vice chairman Miguel Ochoa, and all the primates, but also then all of the uh guarantors and the trustees and the regional secretaries and the branch chairs. I mean, we are actually quite a large council when we meet. The together since 23, there's been this growing concern that what was expected and even promised in Kigali hasn't really moved forward yet. And I think that sense that the the the resetting the communion is an urgent task, is what we said in the in the statement. And then it seemed like some sort of put the brakes on somewhat, or there was not as the same kind of urgency. So I think by the time we got to Macquarie in October of last year, that was the chairman of GAFCON saying, I need to have a consultation to know where are we moving? Are we moving forward? Are are we going to take this reset of the communion with a sense of urgency? And and I think Or just kick it down the road. Or just keep keep having meetings, keep talking, keep walking together, which of course is the old-fashioned canterbury tactic. So that's part of it.

SPEAKER_07 12:10

Let me take us back to and what I've got is a couple of little videos that I just want to play. Uh interviews that I did um in the backstage uh forum that we were doing at Kigali. One with James Wong at the end of the conference, uh Archbishop um from the uh Indian Ocean, and uh one with Justin Badia Rama uh from Primate of South Sudan and Chair of the Global South. Let's just watch them and then we'll talk about going forward. That's great.

Who’s Coming To Abuja And Why

SPEAKER_09 12:44

Um, yesterday you may be aware of the primates of GAFCON and Global South came together, and um we agreed now that we have to be thinking about love and unity within the steering of Global South and the Primate Council of the Gafkan movement. So already we agreed that we are to come together. And this is why in my sermon this morning, I also preach about the need of coming together in love, but especially the need of coming together to confirm the knowledge of the Bible. The place of a Bible in us, it is a Bible which will bind us together. So the word of God is so important that we have to decide who we are and to be one in God. And um, I think later um in the declaration of GAFCON, this is going to be mentioned, and I thank God for the wisdom he has bestowed the primates um of GAFCON and Global South to come together and to start a journey of sharing.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

You are the chair for Global South, and uh one would like to ask what has been the encouragement from GAFCON?

The Jerusalem Declaration As Boundary

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Encouragement we receive from GAFCOM. GAFCO is gifted in mission, in enabling people, renew their faith. That's something that gives us encouragement and gives us hope for the whole American community. And we thank God for Gafcom. What are many excitements of the week here this week for you? The excitement now coming together, meeting friends from all around the world. That is a great encouragement and excitement because it reminds me that I am not alone. There are still thousands of brothers and sisters around the world who are firm um the gospel.

SPEAKER_06 15:27

And he said one of the thrills for him has been the sense of genuinely walking together with other brothers and sisters um uh in Christ.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

That is uh that is great encouragement as we walk together, and then you're encouraged that on this journey I'm not alone.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

What do you see in the future between the GAFCON and the Global South?

SPEAKER_03 15:55

GAFCOM and Global South two institutions that uh overlap and what they do, and uh in the future it is my hope and prayer that the two may become one.

Electing A Primus Inter Pares

SPEAKER_06 16:13

There was a a moment in the um, I'm sure I'm sure you were in the primates meeting or the bishop's meeting at the time, but in the um the laity and clergy auditorium where we were yesterday afternoon, um when they were taking input ideas for the statement, one delegate from the floor said um something similar to that, and there was big applause around the auditorium. And uh Richard Condy, who was chairing the meeting, said, uh, look, I just want you to know I'm gonna take that feedback back to the uh to the primates and to the to the bishop's group.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

We are planning for that, we are dreaming that, and we are moving towards that. And uh it is all our prayer that we will see something new within the Anglican Communion in the nearest future.

SPEAKER_09 17:06

The good thing is primates of global south, primates of GAFCO, we are coming together. Um, and uh the vision um we are going to develop it will be approved by the assembly of uh global south and by the primary council of uh GAFCON movement. So we are going to meet together and we are going to move in a direction that we will agree. Perhaps a bit of a timeline. Um uh definitely we will have to agree before the next uh assembly of global south, which will be in May next year.

SPEAKER_08 17:51

I wonder if I can ask. Um, and and this this idea of unity between uh GAFCON and the Global South has been a big theme of this conference and quite clearly a great desire of the delegates. It was almost we're almost waiting for all the primers to meet together on Tuesday afternoon, I think it it was. Um, and you're obviously in a unique position being in both those groups. I'll be allowed to ask what was the what was the mood and the sentiment in that meeting?

Closing And Coverage Details

SPEAKER_09 18:18

Love friendship, focus on the future. You know, if you look at the different primates, the green chair of GAFCO is the treasurer of global south. The president of uh global south, he's also a primate of uh the Gafkan movement. So um uh we are already together, we need to define the structure for the future. And the the definition, the new definition of the Anglican Communion, then it's going to be ratified by the Assembly of Global South and by the um uh Prime Minister Committee of uh Gafcon.

SPEAKER_07 19:06

So, Paul Donison, you've just seen those two interviews, one with James Wong and one with uh uh Archbishop Badiya Rama. Uh what's your reaction looking back in 2026 to that those comments at the end of the Kigali Conference 2023?

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Yeah, we're getting closer and closer to the three-year mark, aren't we? I mean and I'll just say that I I think with great intentions, and I even with all the engagement I've had on these issues, working with GSFA and uh you know really trying to see this uh union come together. I was one of the delegates on the floor that was pooting and hollering pretty loudly when I heard that. I thought, yes, bring this together. Uh because we've always said that the the the revisionists are actually, ironically, unified and the and the conservatives, the orthodox, are are often divided within within the church. You know, the the revisionists, although they they'll divide over all kinds of things, but they are sort of unified around Canterbury and the old structures, uh the failed structures, the the failed instruments. Um but the Orthodox aren't always unified. And and so that's why I think we're that.

SPEAKER_07 20:13

Um the problem's really clear, it's what our response should be. Precisely. And that's where the different strategies with each other.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

And the strategies emerge differently. And I would just say I was encouraged then. I'm still encouraged now. Uh I think we've made attempts. Uh they have not yet come to fruition of really seeing collaboration, that the overlap of what GSFA and GAFCON are doing is still there. Because James Wong gave us a really tight timeline there. Absolutely, absolutely. And I was at that uh first assembly for for GSFA as an observer uh in Cairo, uh in Alexandria, and and we were hoping that there would be all this sort of movement towards unity, and there just unfortunately wasn't. I will say at the ground level of coming out of the floor of the actual meeting in Alexandria, there was this push for a motion that was almost forcing the same question back from Kigali, saying, let's actually get everyone working together. And you can see that there was dynamics.

SPEAKER_07 21:10

People wanted it in the grassroots level south.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

And I think that's been that's been key throughout this whole last almost three years has been at the grassroots level, in the pews, in the churches, uh, in most of the dioceses around the world, they've said, this would be great. We need to make this happen, come together. Um, I would say that for GAFCON's part, as we move forward with this assembly, uh, this gathering, this G26 conference, um, everyone's invited. The Orthodox. If you can sign the Jerusalem Declaration, you're invited. If you're a primate, you're invited. Come, be in the room, be be at the table, be in the room where it happens, as they say. Um and and and if we're going in the wrong direction, to quote Hamilton, um, you know, and uh the Canadian who's a newly minted American can quote Hamilton. But the but the truth is that uh, you know, if there's something that that we're saying in the in the Macquarie statement, in the Mardi Say statement that is unhelpful, well, be in the room and let's talk about it. And if there's things we can say better, um, then let's have those conversations. So I really think the G26, with that sense of urgency, is I think the moment. Uh I think Archbishop James Wong was right that there was a sense of urgency. It didn't quite lay out on the timetable we'd expect. And this is often our case. You know, the Lord's got a different timetable than we do. Um so he thought it would be within a year. Maybe now it'll be about three years in Abuja 2026. Let's see the real Orthodox family come together. And and that would be the hope.

SPEAKER_07 22:38

Now, um, a few weeks ago, the Global South put out a statement. They didn't interact with what you're doing, but they did seem to be laying out a well, they were laying out a different trajectory for it. Yeah. How have the conversations been going about these two different trajectories between the global south, predominantly based around Asia, and the um uh the GAFCON where the center of gravity is not is is Africa?

SPEAKER_04 23:06

Aaron Powell Well and I think part of the part of what's been happening is you talk to different people and you hear very different things. I mean, so there's some who would would see what the GFCFA put out as a statement recently that sounds like they're plowing ahead with a bit of a different direction. They're seem to be focused more on uh resetting the communion according to Canterbury uh structures. For example, the Yaskifo, Nairobi, Cairo uh reports. Um that these will be the mechanisms by which they reset the community. Communion. And I think within GAFCON, the response has been, well, no, we're not going to look to Canterbury Strike. So I think there's some that would say it looks like GSFA and GAFCON have got very different trajectories. Others, though, because we do have great overlap, as um Archbishop Body says in the video along with Archbishop James Wong, the overlap is enormous. So you talk to different primates who go to both sets of meetings, and some of them are actually quite optimistic, saying, actually we're we're we're much more unified than it seems.

SPEAKER_07 24:07

So let's do this together. We've got the same theological concerns.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

You were you remember it. I mean, you were you were heavily involved, Jody, in the in the leadership behind the scenes there in Kigali. I mean, you remember that excitement.

SPEAKER_05 24:20

Absolutely, that's right. And and I think that the expectation that James Wong had for 2024 is what we're thinking now for 2026. Now there's been that two-year gap. And it is a little bit different in that we've come to this moment where we've said the the primates have said through the statement last year, we have got to be at the point where we are not engaging with the instruments of the communion anymore. Because the time has come after all of these moments of discussions, the call for repentance, it's vital that an action actually happens. And so continuing to engage with the instruments as we had in the past is no longer the strategy. That's right. And so we there is there is a a point of difference there in that GAFCON is not saying we're going to be engaging with the Canterbury statements and the Yascafo and and things like that, the the Nairobi um Cairo um statement and so on. We're saying when we're not concerned about who is going to be the the the moving Archbishop of Canterbury or whoever it is that's not the president of the communion, that kind of stuff. That's not the that's not the concern for us. The time has come, and that is that is what really in so many ways led Archbishop Mbanda to to call together the meeting last year to say we have got to do something. What are we going to do?

SPEAKER_07 25:38

Now I'm imagining there are still some primates perhaps sitting on the fence uh about whether or not they'll go to Abuja, is that right?

SPEAKER_04 25:50

Well, we we communicate. I mean Jody's team is doing an amazing job sending out invitations, and of course, all of us are making phone calls and talking with everyone. It's a global church, and people have crazy schedules, and they've got conf conflicts, and they've got um all kinds of different reasons why they can or can't be there. But so we're hoping that's important. Well, that's the hope. So we're continuing to pray that we really do get the right people. The Lord will decide who needs to be in the room. We hope that it's uh as broad a representation of the Orthodox Anglican Bible-believing communion as we can find.

SPEAKER_07 26:23

Aaron Ross Powell And my sense is that even if the primate's not with you from quite a number of prov provinces, um a number of senior leaders are. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

That's right. And that's what's what's what's encouraging. I mean, again, you want to talk about the the number of requests you're getting on a daily basis?

SPEAKER_05 26:36

Absolutely. And and it may be that the the primate may not have the intention at this stage of attending, not clear yet. But certainly we are getting on on a daily basis, I'm getting bishops diocesans emailing saying, can I get an invitation, please? I want to be there. I think it's really important to be in the room. And I think I think related to this is that there's a I I suspect some people think that if I turn up at a bouja, I'm signing off on everything, that I'm completely sold on the whole movement and the whole direction. But we are wanting people to be in the room to influence it, to actually have a voice in it, so that there can be that sense of um it's not just a signed-off statement, it's it's a work in progress. And so if you want to be a part of it, you want to be a part of the global Anglican Communion, show up at G26. But even if you don't, that's not the end either.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

That's right. If you can sign the Jerusalem Declaration, which has really been since 2008, our contemporary Anglican confession that says holding together the Bible as the center of what it means to be Anglican, you know, read within the Anglican formularies, right? This understanding that I think I think the JD is still brilliant. I get my parishioners who want to become members of the church to sign the JD. I mean, I just say this is When this is using acronyms here, this is. Yeah, that's right. That's right, that's right, that's right. Um, but the for the Jerusalem Declaration being this very clear confessional statement um that people can get around. So we're saying you do need to be able to sign the Jerusalem Declaration to come. In fact, there's a button you have to press on the registration page that says do you affirm yes? Um, but at the end of the day, though, we want the global church to gather to pray, to call upon the Holy Spirit to guide and lead. Um, and we can't set a trajectory together if we're not all together. Uh and but we will move forward. Again, the urgency, and this is I think the key, the urgency drives us forward.

SPEAKER_07 28:26

And let's come back to this um uh person who would end up being the first among equals primate. Um uh I and others have been uh scorn scornful of the process in electing the Archbishop of Canterbury. Um but uh how do we make sure this election is a good election that lots of us are going to be able to say, yeah, that was a good process? And will it be contested?

SPEAKER_04 28:52

I mean I think the the challenge will be that as the primates gather, I mean it's the whole church gathering, it's the bishops and it's clergy and lady, but the primates uh will will be gathering beforehand.

SPEAKER_07 29:03

Just the primates who do the electing.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Well, that's that's been our way in the past. I mean, GAFCON has been a primate-led movement specifically. Again, like I said, the primates council, what includes the advisors, the guarantors, the trustees, means you've got clergy, laity, bishops who are not primates all gathered. Um and so they're all speaking into this, they're all part of the conversation. But traditionally, we've had the primates vote. Um, we're not suggesting yet that we start using the synodical language. And I'm I'm only cautious in the language because when we say synodical as opposed to conciliar, synodical assumes usually a constitutional process. People assume, oh, well, we I I'm part of a synod, we have a I'm part of a diocese, we have a synod, or I'm just by eligible. You know, and therefore by houses and people start arguing, and the canon lawyers are in the mix of all that. Those are helpful conversations. Um, but I don't think we're there yet. And and many of us would say we don't really need a global synod in the sense that we don't need the global church sending in a sort of a magisterial kind of format from on high declarations down through the ranks of the church. We need a fellowship that is in in council with the church in sort of the Acts 15 model, which I said at the beginning, is is we meet together, we're in council, the whole church is heard, speaks. How we work out the specifics of voting and all the rest will be determined. And so on the Prime Minister Paris question, this is something that's gonna have to be seen when we arrive. We're gonna have to talk it through. And yes, there'll always be detractors that say you didn't do it right. I think the Crown nomination committee process is so bad that in so many ways. I'm not suggesting it's gonna be easy to do this, but no matter how we approach this, it's got to be it's got to be better than that. I mean, we're we're actually approaching this with you know those who are actual global leaders, uh representing the whole of the church meeting together rather than this carefully constructed nominations committee that's frankly full of a lot of tokenism of, oh, we'll get some global leaders, but do they really represent the global church? They didn't. They didn't. And the decision they made evidences that you know that the Lambeth structures are still tone-deaf to where the global church is really at.

SPEAKER_07 31:15

Well, if you've got somebody appointed by the British Prime Minister and the King.

SPEAKER_04 31:40

His mother seemed to have a real heart for Jesus. Absolutely. But no one's assumed this. And so to hear the the about to become Archbishop of Canterbury suggests that the king is a wonderful Christian man, I want to say, can you recognize a solid Christian from another? I mean, I hope that would be part of the job description for a leader of a global communion. Amen.

unknown 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 32:01

Uh thank you very much for coming in. Paul Donison pulling punches this afternoon on the Pastors Heart. My name's Dominic Steele. Our guests have been Paul Donison, the General Secretary of GAFCON, and Jody McNeil, the operations manager of GAFCON. We're looking forward to being with you every day of the GAFCONFRS in Nigeria and uh bringing you on the Pastor's Heart uh the coverage. You could go to thepastorsheart.net and subscribe to our coverage, and we'll send you an email every day uh letting you know the various interviews that we've done. And then you can tune in and follow the progress. Thanks for joining us today. We'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.