Easter Evangelism that actually works. How not to waste Easter this year.

For many of us, Easter is the highest attention moment of the year. But how do we turn that attention into genuine Gospel impact? How do we help people attend in the first place, how do we move from visitor to believer, and how do we run follow up that actually happens?

How to engage the neighbourhood, welcome deliberately, lead hearts to love Jesus in the gathering and preaching, and leading well into followup courses. 

We cover what to prioritise, what not to do, whether evening events are worth it, how to serve families well, and simple next steps that help guests come back.

Featuring three Sydney mission pastors: Brayden Lucas (Christ Church Gladesville), Peter Blake (St Stephen’s Normanhurst) and Pip Witheridge (St Paul’s Carlingford).

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Transcript

Recapturing Lapsed Faith And Curiosity

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Easter evangelism that actually works. How not to waste Easter this year. It is The Pastor's Heart. It's Dominic Steele and Braden Lucas, Peter Blake, and Pip Withridge are our guests. For many of us, it's a high attention moment in the year. But the question is, how do we turn that attention into genuine gospel impact? How do we make Easter count? How do we turn crowds into disciples or people to move from visitor to believer? Or how to see people attend an Easter service in the first place? How does Easter fit in with your year-round evangelism pathway? What should we prioritize and what not to do? Plus, follow-up that happens and works. Three Sydney mission pastors are here to help us. Braden Lucas from Christchurch Gladeswell, Peter Blake from St. Stephen's Norman Hurst, and Pip Witherge from St. Paul's Carlingford. Now we're going to start with the pastor's heart. And Braden, you're looking after mission at your church, but also magnification. So what is your pastor's heart for the Easter weekend this year?

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to claim too much to be an expert in magnification space because that's about a two-month-old role for me. But I think my pastor's heart for Easter would say, I want to see people captured or recaptured by the core truths of the gospel, the death and resurrection of Jesus. Captured, maybe being those who are coming as non-Christians for the first time. Recaptured being our people grow developing a greater appreciation for the core gospel truths.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Your pastor's heart, Peter?

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, I think it uh since Stephen's Normanhurst, we've seen over the last couple of years, I really like the language you're talking about, recaptured. We're seeing a lot of people who the last time they came to church was before COVID. And they're starting to re-engage, particularly in in Normanhurst, we've got a high percentage of Catholics. We're seeing a few um lapsed Catholics come to church. Some of them came to to our evangelism course last night, actually. And so we're looking at really trying to engage those people as well over Easter as well. And for for Catholics, you know, this is a traditional moment. This is a great time to sort of uh be thinking about them as they come to as they come to church over Easter too.

First Date Not Wedding: Setting Expectations

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Yeah, I think I I want to see people um who don't believe in Jesus come to be convinced that exploring who Jesus is is worthwhile. Um so people who are um I think disbelieving to think okay, there's enough here about the resurrection that I can actually uh it's worthwhile digging into this. And people who are just disinterested, apathetic, to think actually this is interesting, this actually does change life if it's true. So let me let me explore. And I think as well, just to see our church as a space where actually that's doable, where they can come and explore, and it's not strange and weird that people they're actually uh welcoming and understand that the claims of Christianity are a bit strange to the outsider, and therefore think, hey, they they get where I'm coming from. Let me try and get where they're coming from, let me explore.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

So maybe let me just ask you about the competing goals, because you were kind of talking first date, come and explore, put your foot in the water, and you were talking about I've been around for a while and I'm coming back, and we're will you marry me?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

I reckon I reckon we're actually on exactly the same page because my my I want exactly what Pips just described there. I want these people to come to church, be convicted of the gospel, see it as something that is true.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

That was so could you just say, I think we're on the same page?

SPEAKER_00 5:05

I think I think we're actually on exactly the same page. Uh, because I want to see these people who are coming back to church, I want them to take the next step. Having come to church, I want to see them take the next step and come into a um, you know, an evangelistic course like Discover or Explore or or whatever it is that you run. Um and so my my hope is that yeah, we will be able to move them to that next step and we'll be encouraging them to to either come back to church again or to see that Christianity is actually well worth investigating in a bit more detail at an evangelistic course.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

So yeah, oh well I I find it interesting, like none of us have said we our heart is that people would become Christians on Easter Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I think we're all on the same page that it's um So that's more first date then or early dating rather than will you marry me?

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Yeah, yeah. So um I'm not sure if I'm totally tracked with the whole marriage and dating analogy, but um yeah, I know I get what you mean. I get what you mean. I think I think like there is, I feel like there is this um movement, this sort of understanding that it actually does take a long time for people to um explore Christianity to the point where they can actually make an informed decision about whether they want to follow Jesus or not. Um yeah, East Easter Sunday, I think it plays it plays a role for those who have been exploring and who have been thinking about it, and it's like a it's like a big moment in their life, um, in their journey, but it's also a big moment for someone who comes and they've never really thought much about it because yeah, it is that first date, it is that first step, and we want it to be you want your first date to be good and compelling and you want the person to keep going.

Building Confidence In Your Church

SPEAKER_02 6:39

I think one of the things as well that I would probably try to add on to what we've been saying is I probably conceive of the for the purpose of Easter, I think more actually about it for our people and how it actually relates to them wanting to be able to do that. Celebrating the death of Christ. No, no, it in so we're talking, I think at the moment we're mostly talking about what's what's a goal for a non-Christian who's kind of a non-Christian visitor. My ultimate goal for Easter, whilst quick caveat is I'm always thinking about the non-Christian at a moment like this, is our people, I would say, are inevitably thinking of this as an evangelistic moment. And so for me, I wanted them to see us as a church put on a really good moment so that it actually builds confidence in them for other evangelistic things we run. And for us, it's a course that that's the moment where we are really wanting to and prayerfully wanting to see people converted, and that's our main engine for that. And so if I give them a really good moment at Easter, that builds their confidence for the other evangelistic things that I really want to see them bring in their friend to.

unknown 7:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Yeah. So how do you what are you doing now to win the confidence of your members and to get people to come along? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah. Um well, we took a slightly different track to I think a few churches this year. Um, instead of uh in January, it's it's usually popular to have like a five questions for Jesus sort of series. We we didn't do that. We started in Mark's Gospel um first week of January, and we've been preaching through Mark's Gospel all the way up until um Easter. So we're gonna hit you know chapter chapter 15, chapter 16 on Good Friday and Easter Sunday. And our hope with that is that it's going to build an understanding. We're gonna be journeying sort of with Jesus, taking the congregation with us as we're heading towards the cross. And so hopefully that will actually build a bit of um energy and understanding about the significance of Easter, and hopefully that will flow into just what Braden was talking about before about encouraging our people to see this as uh as a bring votation moment to church and encouraging them to get on board with bringing people to church and engaging them with evangelism as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Don't you wish that Mark had written the resurrection just a little bit better?

SPEAKER_00 9:01

I I'm really happy with the way he wrote it, Dominique.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

I just got there and uh and I just thought, I just wish there was a bit more detail. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah, but it makes you think, doesn't it? And that's what's really well that's what I appreciate about eight about Mark um 16, that it's only it's it's eight verses. And he sort of goes, why is it only eight verses? They went away, they they were afraid. I think that's the last verse of of Mark 8.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

It's like why we've had a more clean cut of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

But it makes you read it again and also makes you think, what what really did happen on on that Easter, that Easter Sunday?

SPEAKER_01 9:41

So I distracted you from the main point you were making, which was um talk to me about the build-up and what you're doing. Yeah.

Preaching Through Mark Toward Easter

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Well, I think I'd say like if your church is not already a place where people feel comfortable to bring their non-Christian friends and on any random Sunday, then your Easter Sunday is not going to be effective. And so you you want to start some like if Easter Sunday is where you're starting, sure, start there, but don't end there. Like a great Easter Sunday is not a mission strategy. Like you need to um create a culture in your church life where people can bring their non-Christian friends, and so that's where we find a um like a we have a weekly Bible study that's open for non-Christians and new Christians. We've got a course we run every term um called Explore Christianity, where people are invited to come in. Um, there's no pressure to um like make a decision, like we don't put the pressure on for people to make a decision in our course. We just invite people to come and explore and uh make an informed decision when they're ready about who Jesus is and following him. And I think that's what will make our Easter Sunday effective is having that culture.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

That the culture overall is for mission and a mission heart and a high mission heat. But what are you doing to draw people's attention to the fact that something's on at church this year in a few weeks' time?

SPEAKER_03 11:02

So I think like I'd summarise it as we want um clear and compelling communication in the lead up. And so advertising it early, um, letting people know exactly what is on and when.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

You've been talking about it all year that we're gonna get to Mark 15 and Mark 16. Good for you.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yeah, it's in the calendar. But I think I think that's exactly right. I think maybe thinking um when if you're thinking flyers or postcards, something to hand people, I think that's really important. That comes back to the bring invitation. If you give your people so, you know, five, for example, five weeks before Easter, start putting on the seats of of you know, every seat, a postcard for Easter so that people can give that to someone and bring that friend along. I think that's really helpful. Can I just can I push back on that?

SPEAKER_03 11:48

So here's here's here's a question I've got around advertising, right? Like if you invite your like the last time you invited your friend to something, how did you invite them to the thing? Text. Yeah. Text, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

So postcard. Not everyone thinks the same way that we do, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so so sometimes it can be helpful to have that postcard just to put it on the fridge and it gives them something to hand to, bit of information to conversation starter.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Um, I get what you're saying though. I do think it maybe it's a generational thing too, because I know I have people in my church who will give the postcard, yeah, but it won't be many.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

But you know what, you know what this highlights? It highlights the need to actually chat with your staff team about Easter and actually uh brainstorm if we're gonna get the church on board, what are we actually going to do? What's the best way to do that?

SPEAKER_01 12:33

So take us into your staff meeting and the conversations that have happened for each of you at how to get people there. Yeah. You've been telling everyone I want you to text. Now, what have you done?

Culture Beats One-Off Events

SPEAKER_03 12:44

Well, it's it's um we want we want a clear presence on our website. So, like often I'll send a link to something and say, Hey, you keen for this? Send a link. Um we want um we want clarity around the different days of of Easter and who they're for. And so we're doing a Maundy Thursday, we're doing Good Friday, we're doing Easter Sunday, and we've got um we've got um an event for um an event that's aimed at outsiders with that's family friendly with kids, and uh services for outsiders who are not bringing their kids along. And then we've got um events that are more aimed at the insider, the the church member um who have kids, so that's our Good Friday, and then uh church members who don't want a kids sort of service, which is our morning Thursday, so that's how we've sort of laid it out. So clarity around that. Um and then um just creating energy and hype, particularly on social media. Um we want we want to lean into social media because that's primarily I think the way that people find out about things. I don't think it's door knocking, I don't think it's the letterbox drop, um I don't I don't even think it's the people handing flies to their friends anymore. I think it's online. Agree, disagree?

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Uh I would say I mostly agree. I think what one way we do actually see people at our church, and it's a little bit because of where our church is geographically. We're right on Victoria Road in Glades, also heaps of people are driving past all the time. So we do get walk-ins because of signage. So we do put a bit of effort and work into our signage.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

I think we do, I think we do too. We're not as high traffic as you, but we're on a prominent corner.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

But that yeah, that could just be quite contextually based. But otherwise, we'll do a pretty pretty solid um social media campaign. Our cons director will manage that.

Invites, Hooks, And Clarity

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Um we still need to talk about it as a staff team, which is really good. Uh we've decided who's gonna be preaching and what we're gonna be preaching on, but we need we need to talk about uh the sort of strategy that we're gonna be doing. Uh but I I w want to be I think a good place to start a good place to start is thinking through the people who are gonna be arriving at church, the newcomers, the visitors, um, thinking through where are they at in life, why are they coming to church. Some of them will be there like hostages. They've been invited along and they've come along because it's part of the family tradition to do. And so I think uh spending a bit of time, an hour or two, actually thinking through how how are we gonna prepare for that person, preacher, how are you gonna prepare, how are you gonna preach to that person who's got their arms folded, sitting down, doesn't want to be there. How are you gonna address that person in the room? What questions are you going to prepare yourself to ask at the end of the service to that person that you've seen crossing their arms? I think there's there's lots out of our control when it comes to saving people. God will save whoever he wants, whenever he wants. But there's also there's also stuff that's within our control, and we can prepare ourselves by knowing, by thinking through what's a good question to ask this person. How do I engage this person if they haven't really been engaged in the service? And how do I engage the person who's brought them along? Um, yeah. Texting, texting is great. Um, social media campaigns are great. I I I would still believe in the postcard. I think I think that's good.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Long live the postcard looks looks good on the fridge. We actually do, we print out like a small batch of postcards for people who really want to. I'm not anti-pagnology. There's not a big jart off. Yeah, that's right. Can I just ask a question around like what are you actually um putting on your flyer and your advertising? Because we've tried like a hook, you know what I mean? Like not just Easter at a question.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

But yeah, like a question to get question or something like that. We've had a big discussion about this in our team the last fortnight. And uh Damien brought um he he was going around the team saying, What are the words that you would describe Sydney in a West people at the moment? And we we we came up with harried and kind of overwhelmed and stressed and and and actually the consensus amongst our team was fairly consistent on those where are we at as a world today? Yeah. And so he he wrote a campaign that kind of ran with that theme, and then he wrote an alternate campaign just with Easter is on, and and uh he asked one of the advertising guys in our church what he thought of the two campaigns, and he said the guy said, Well, the strength of this one is the weakness of this one, and the strength of this one is the weakness of that. And and you couldn't have both, you had to pick one.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

So what's what's the strength of either?

SPEAKER_01 18:03

So you've got one of Anandale. One is Easter at Anandale, which is kind of it's on, come, really clear, you know, and and is going to pick up potentially the person who thinks, Oh, yeah, I ought to go to church, you know. Whereas the other one raising, if you like, the the kind of unsettledness of life is uh more pitched at um just raising the conversation and raising the now I would have my cake and eat it too, but I'm not sure I can.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

You can be too clever, I think, with the hooks, and so you lose that clarity. Like we were thinking about we were tossing, it's like what what do people care about now? Cost of living. So could you do something about you know, Jesus had to die so that we could live, that's the cost of living. And it's like, well, are we getting too clever?

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Like, are people gonna know Easter is on it? We did a clever one a few years ago, which I think was too clever. It was about um uh the ultimate renovation. And I mean, everyone here is renovating in a uh terraces, you know, and the ultimate renovation is the heart change you need, you know. But I think we were just too clever.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

I think we worry too much about these altogether. Yeah, yeah. I think the amount of time to Easter at Glades, but yeah, I think the amount of time we worry about um putting energy into the the hook that we're gonna put on a postcard. We could be using to do something better. Yes.

Channels: Social, Signage, And Site

SPEAKER_01 19:23

You work, you work your backgrounds in advertising. You're the youth.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

It explains everything. Yeah, it's been holding out on it. Personally, I think I I think um like I am a fan of Easter at whatever because I think it uh like it's majors on the clarity and um in our area, like I'm keen to help people who are um maybe recent migrants to Australia just to be like, oh, here's here's like an Anglo experience at an Anglican church, like I want to come and experience this Easter at St. Paul's. However, this year we're not doing that, we're we're trying something different, um, just to test, just to see, like, you know, if it if it moves the needle at all, if it makes a difference. So we're doing the end of Mark's gospel as well, and it ends on that note of fear. And someone um in our staff team was like, it's like scary good news.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Wow. And so we're running with like, this is this is scary good news. Yeah. And so we're running with that as our kind of too clever. Uh well, we'll see. We'll see, I guess. I'll I like it because it's like, you know, people say, Oh, that's scary good. And um, you know, it's a hook into Mark's gospel, and it it maybe, maybe cuts through some of the noise of the someone who's just disinterested, they're like, Easter's not for me, but they see this and it draws them. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

My my the reason I I kind of like play down the way you word whatever you want to word, whether it's Easter ad or a nice hook, is because actually something Pete alluded to earlier is who are most often the non-Christians that are gonna be at an Easter service. I think this is also true of Christmas too, and I think it's basically two categories, but they're both feeling obliged to be there. There's a third category as well, but the biggest number of people are from two categories. One is obliged to be there because of some religious ideal they have, they've got to go to church, and the other's the family. I'm obliged to be here because mum wants me to, and it's special weekend for mum or whatever. And so I think for those people, it doesn't matter what's on the postcard because they're gonna come out of their own obligation. And what then becomes super important is well, how do you, on the day, whether it's Friday or Sunday, cut through, treat and meet those people, cut through in the sermon, but also like I want to overstate the importance of good welcoming and a good welcoming culture.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

So tell me what you're telling your teams at the moment as you lead up to it. Uh I mean, um there's there's really what happens in the foyer and what happens on the platform and what happens in the conversations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

So a big one is I'll be working with the other staff member who um oversees all the welcome teams. So I don't oversee them, she does, and so we'll be in conversation, making sure A, they're resourced, because unfortunately Ether is also a time when some often a lot of our people are away. So we've got to that's number one. Are they resourced well? And you know, depending on the people who are there, are they resourced with high competency? I think as well, like your best welcomers, uh, and making sure that's true for all the different like we'll probably run two on Friday and then three on the Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah.

Preparing For Hostile Or Apathetic Visitors

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Uh, and so making sure all of them are well resourced. And and then um we'll do a post kind of gift thing we we've done in the last couple of years where we'll say from the front, hey, uh maybe you've been here hearing about Christianity first time or you're exploring it, something like that. We've got a little bag, a little welcome pack we might call it, um, that you can take on your way to it. Uh last year we put Rebecca McLaughlin's Easter Unbelievable, it's a tiny little blue book. And it one thing I like about Rebecca McLaughlin, like it's more down the apologetics line, which I'm we could talk about that another time, but I'm not a huge fan of. But she often in her books also ends with an actual kind of gospel presentation. So I like that about hers. And then a gospel itself. So I think last year we did Luke's gospel. Um, we put that in there, and then maybe a I'm sorry, a postcard about some of our ministries as well. Settled down. The thing I like about it too is sometimes you get your more missionly minded, evangelistic minded people to be the hander outer. And so if a non Christian does come, I say to them, Yeah, have a conversation, see what you can do, see if you can Did people put their hands up on a book the band? No, we have a point outside. Point outside. We literally have an orange tent, um church color. Is orange, so it's in your face. Uh, and so we say, go to the orange tent if you'd like one. That way it's kind of you know, it's on their own sort of initiative to have done. And then I say to the people that yeah, go on, go for it. Have a conversation if you can. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

What are you doing to particularly look after the person who's coming? I think I'm just gonna do it, bro. In just a second.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Still's really good. Get an orange tent too.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Yeah, yeah. We were thinking about resources to hand out, and um, yeah, I think uh Andrew Errington has one as well. Um, can we trust what the gospels say about Jesus? Oh, so there are a few different resources we're thinking what what could be helpful to hand out to someone or have available for someone. Things like we want to um have good coffee after the service um for our afternoon and night services, we're thinking of a barbecue, just a space to hang out outside and um have some food, just a nice warm, welcoming space to um yeah, spend time together.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Um what attention do you want to go to in terms of the construction of the service? Um I'm thinking um uh what's the mood that you're looking for? And also um what are you doing to achieve what you were asking for a moment ago, Braden? Yeah. Pete, let's start with you.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

I'm thinking that the the flow of the service, you don't want it to be sad or or somber, but you do want it to be um, I think respectful at the beginning, but you do want to end on that note of of joy that knowing that Christ both um Good Friday and Easter Sunday? Oh, okay. I'm talking about Good Friday first. Easter Sunday, it's joy, it's celebration. Like this is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

So are you putting balloons in the foyer or no?

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Um no, but I've empty balloons, yeah. I've got uh I've I sort of try to I'd be trying to keep um Easter Friday, Easter Sunday. I think particularly Easter Friday, because it's where I think most of the visitors are gonna be coming because it's the public holiday. Easter Friday is bigger for you than Easter Sunday. I think so in terms of visitors. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

Um but do you agree with that? Uh well we've our Easter Sunday is gonna be our big invite day because we think we'll get more visitors on Easter Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

You're going for Easter Sunday rather than Easter Friday. Interesting. Hey, can I just ask digression? Night services on Easter Sunday, because for us they've been consistently low numbers, whereas we've had strong attendance Friday morning, Sunday morning. What's your experience?

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Yeah, um I'm struggling to like remember really the numbers of those. Right. But we've always just kept our night service. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

In the time I've been there anyway. Yeah.

Messaging: Clarity Versus Cleverness

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Last year all of our services were up except for our night service, which was down. But I think that's because last year was right in the middle of the school holidays, and we had lots of our young adults away on um camps, conferences, things like that in the school holidays. Whereas this year, Easter's at the start of the school holidays. And so, but that doesn't really like we just we run with our night service because it's um you know, it's our night church on a on a Sunday night. We want to keep that um, it reaches the young adults demographic.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

So that's that mission. I'm gonna ask you guys to think about that. I was um uh I was struck a few years ago. I'm pretty sure Hillsong didn't run Easter Sunday night, do you know? And I thought, I'm sure they're thinking about this, do you know? Um, but I'm not sure. I'm I mean I don't know. I just it's a I just thought it was an interesting conversation worth um asking. Back to you, Peter. You were you were running through somber on Good Friday, celebration Easter Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Yeah, trying to collect my thoughts again. No, no, no, definitely celebration on on Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

And and so what are you are you looking to have a testimony or what are you looking to have in the gathering that's special?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Um I'd be I'd be trying to yeah, a testimony could be really good. Uh I I I I love that idea actually. Um, because it celebrates the idea that the risen Lord is still changing lives and saving people. Um, I think that's fantastic. Uh, but I'd be looking at trying to keep the services actually as as as normal as possible so that those people who are coming along visiting, um, when they come back again, they're greeted with something that they're used to or that they've seen before. So it's it's not a big surprise. You're not trying to go, um, oh well, I'm gonna go back to that service because it's got um a jumping castle. A jumping castle. I'm I'm I'm gonna go back to it. I know what to expect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Oh well, I think there's a good there's a good thing there. It's like you don't want it to be too different from your normal Sunday because what they come to is what they're going to expect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can be you want it to be a bit you want it to be special and bigger, but not um dramatically.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

What we were saying before, um thoughtful targeting for um people with kids and thoughtful targeting for people without kids. And I mean I found that interesting that you were pitching Thursday night at people without kids and Friday morning at people with kids. Yeah, that's right. And um how does it Do you have kids in the service at Easter? Do you do it or do they um or do they go out for the sermon? Do they what what's the plan there? Are you running a children's programme at Easter or not?

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Or Um We we have like an all-in service. Like we'll have an all-in service for um Easter Sunday morning. So ev everyone in and there's stuff for the kids and there's babies and there's lots of noise and it's chaos, and but what it what it um it shows people who are coming in with their kids who are visiting is this is a church that loves children and it's a safe space for them and it's a fun space for them. And so um what are you doing there, Brayden?

SPEAKER_02 29:30

We'll still run a kids program.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Now, why? Let's hear the argument. I want you two to debate your topic, defend your bosses and your scarf teams.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Yeah, well, if they watch this, they might be like, that's not what we think, Braden, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Yeah, well, we haven't had all the meetings with the supercoming thing.

Staff Planning And Service Mapping

SPEAKER_02 29:56

I think that you can actually achieve the for the visitor that you love children, you're on about kids um and loving them and and caring for them well, even still by having an awesome program. Because when they leave that program, if they've had an awesome time, they've met a leader they really get along with, they've met um kids their age that they really get along with, they come back and go, Mom, dad, that was awesome. You know, see the thing I made. Um, and also I I'm big on the fact that we get to do a better job at teaching our kids if we do it in a way that's age appropriate for them. And that can and and that's actually the same for our adults as well. We do a better job of hitting the adults aware they're at if we can do that in an age appropriate way. And sometimes when they're all in together, we are giving up somewhere on one of those.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Okay, Carlingford, why is Gladesville wrong?

SPEAKER_03 30:45

Uh well, no, Gladesville's not wrong. And probably we we want our programs to be, you know, our kids' programs um that run uh throughout the school term to be excellent and to you know be a confidence builder for parents. But um, I think one of the reasons maybe is so if you're new to church and you bring, say, your two-year-old, your three-year-old along, um, there's not that trust there already that you'd hand them off to a kid's program. And so by bringing them into the service and actually seeing like even from up front, the the talk, the songs, everything, um, is it's kind of like that um the Pixar thing where it's like, you know, it's for the for the kids, but it's kind of winking at the parents and saying, you know, you you get this as well.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

And do you tell your people, you know, that that's the like this is going to be the the vibe of this Sunday morning?

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

So if you want your say uh non-Christian spouse to come along, maybe come to a different one. Is that how Um Because my thing the the thought behind my question there is well, if I'm bringing a non-Christian spouse along to church and they see that there's a lot of kid-friendly stuff, they're maybe switching off and already thinking, well, this isn't really for me. Yeah, and that might lower the confidence in the person who's brought them along.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Yeah, I mean, um that hasn't really been our experience. Like people who come along even without kids, if they're non-Christians and they're adults, they see that, oh, this is a church that's about like families, that's great, and they can appreciate, and I think they're you know often mature enough to be like, oh yeah, I get it. I get that this is they want to be great for families and kids. But um, we do make it really clear that it will be like a family-friendly all-in service so that if someone is thinking that way, if someone's like, Oh, I've got someone who I really I just want them to have like uh a sermon that's targeted at adults, they can bring them to the night service or the afternoon service.

Welcome Systems And Take-Home Packs

SPEAKER_00 32:37

But but something, yeah, so something really interesting is is that um you know I was gonna get you to be the deciding voice. Also a different opinion. Um classic, and uh but something that we're we're hitting on um is that church is very different to society, and we we we all come from from large-ish Sydney churches for for the small church, there's there's a lot of encouragement in this as well. Like you don't need to put on um I I don't think you you need to put on a lot of fancy programs or change too much over Easter. Your people will do so much for um for showcasing the um you know we we you know the gospel is preached during the sermon and and we encourage each other with it, we sing it, but then after the service, we live it out, we we live out the gospel to each other. And when visitors come along and when they've you know they've tasted what secularism brings and it doesn't taste good, when they come into our church and they see a community of people who love each other with a with a a supernatural kind of love, despite differences. At our church, we've got people who who love Trump, who don't love Trump across all the political spectrum, but united in their love for Christ and love for each other. When they see that, and this is this is like the testimony of people who've come, when they see the church living out the love of Christ, that is a testimony to itself that there is something that there is something out there that has changed these people. And so um programs are really good because they can actively target demographics uh a lot more sharply. But for a for a small church that's thinking through how do I prepare for Easter, getting your people on board excited about newcomers coming, um, you know, welcome teams firing and and that sort of thing, getting people excited about the fact that there's going to be newcomers and the church community living out the way it does in love is a great testament and very powerful.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

I I'm very interested in what you said, Pip, but I'm um I I've been trying to process my own feelings as as you two were debating before. And I think I'd admit, I'd I think I'd need to admit that I feel inept at speaking at the all-age service. You know, I'm I think I'm a better than average communicator to the adult audience, but I really don't feel competent holding that multi-generational audience. And so and and so I think why did I like what Braden was saying? And I actually thought it's actually got to do with my own inabilities. Anyway, that was that's interesting. I was processing it. It's it's interesting. But you may have a really gifted person who can communicate to the all-age.

SPEAKER_03 35:37

Well, so on on Easter Sunday morning, our senior minister will be um dressed in a clown suit? Not quite. Well, so so he he and our um kids minister, they've got a very they're they're very different people, but they've got this great chemistry on on stage because in a way our senior minister sort of plays plays the the straight man and is very and you know is communicating to adults primarily. Yeah. And our kids minister is just fantastic at like speaking to kids and even really young kids and getting them engaged, getting them involved, and at the same time the adults in the room stay engaged.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

And so having two people up the front, so it's two people up the front, and it's working off the particular gifts of the particular people that you've got. That's right. And so, I mean, we can argue the in principle, but it's actually whether or not you've got the gifts to pull it off. That's a that's part of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Yeah, I agree. I think that's even true if you don't have kids in and thinking about who the main preacher is for the different services, or if you're gonna have the same person the whole of Sunday, same person. It's probably the way most people would end up going.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah.

Hospitality, Coffee, And Spaces To Linger

SPEAKER_02 36:48

You you probably want someone on your team who's a bit more gifted at the evangelistic style as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Yeah. Thank you so much for coming in. That's been super helpful and uh will prompt some really good discussion in our team. I'm taking lots of churches.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Now I know what to tell my team about.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Our guests on The Pastor's Heart, Pete Blake. He's from St. Stephen's Normanhurst in Sydney, Pip Witheridge from St. Paul's, Carlingford, and Braden Lucas from Christchurch in Gladesville. My name's Dominic Steele. You've been with us on The Pastor's Heart, and we'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.