Laurent Mbanda: First extended interview with the leader of the new Global Anglican Communion

A refugee boy who walked barefoot from Rwanda to Burundi now leads the Global Anglican Communion. 

In this special episode of The Pastor’s Heart, Dominic Steele speaks with Archbishop Laurent Mbanda of Rwanda, newly appointed chair of the council guiding newly inaugurated the Global Anglican Communion.

Speaking from Abuja, Nigeria, just days after the historic gathering that launched the new communion, 

Archbishop Mbanda reflects on the extraordinary journey that brought him from displacement and poverty to global church leadership.

He shares the emotion and conviction behind the moment — why many Anglicans believe a new structure was necessary, why unity must be theological rather than geographical, and why the authority of Scripture remains central.

Archbishop Mbanda also responds to narratives circulating in the media — that the new movement is about women bishops or opposition to LGBT people — arguing instead that the central issue is the authority of Scripture and faithfulness to biblical teaching.

Along the way, Mbanda warmly commends Vaughan Roberts’ Lausanne Conference address and new book Full of Grace and Truth, urging churches to hold together biblical conviction and Christ-like grace in their response to questions of sexuality.

Transcript

Sponsorship And Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:10

I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you gave me. I studied Diploma in theology at Bundle Bible College. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained with support from Anglican Aid in the last five years. When you give to Anglican Aid's Global Anglican Communion Fund, you'll help resource the world's poorest diocese to preach Christ faithfully and care for people in need. Visit Anglicanaid.org.

From Refugee Boy To Global Chair

SPEAKER_04 0:40

He was barefoot, walking from Rwanda to Burundi, that little refugee boy, now grown up, now chairing the council, leading the global Anglican Communion. Archbishop Laurent Mbunda is with us on the Pastor's Heart. It's Dominic Steele. We're in Abuja, Nigeria. We're brought to you by AnglicanAid. Go to Anglicanaid.org. It has been a momentous week for the Anglican Church around the world with the celebration of the coming into being of the Global Anglican Communion. An acknowledgement that the Canterbury Instruments have failed. New chair have a council constituted to lead the Global Anglicans is Archbishop Laurent Mbunder of Rwanda. Mbunder, thanks for coming to talk to us. I want to ask you about your past as heart and your emotion as you look back at the achievements of Abuja. But I wonder, can I just start personally? Because you've spoken to me before and you've written about growing up Fairfoot Refugee Boy to now being chair of this global Anglican communion. It all must feel a bit surreal.

Joy In Abuja And A Turning Point

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Yeah, it's uh it's by God's grace. You really feel like I don't deserve to be here. But at the same time, you think, well, God is gracious, has been gracious, is the only God who could have done this. And I can't believe it. And it is exciting, but it's also humbling. It's very humbling to look back and realize where you are, to look at the journey that you have traveled with God's protection, with God's hand, with God's provision, with God opening doors that you never, never would have thought of. Where people probably would not have given you a chance. And now you find yourself in a place like this, and you say, wow, what God has done is amazing. And so you you you just think, now, how how how can you turn against him and his teaching? And I'm not saying people have turned against him, but how can you put that scripture that has given you hope, that has brought you closer to the Lord, and you put it aside. It is very difficult to understand. So it's exciting to be where we are, it's exciting. I wish you saw the the joy, the dance, the uh people are saying, you know, when you talk to them, it's like finally, something is here. And they feel they feel like it's something that they have labored for. They feel like we talked, we conferenced if it is if that's English, we were doing the conferences, we made the statement, but it's like there is something in the earth that people were waiting for, and finally this moment brings it to life. And uh and so when he said the future has come, the excitement. Yeah, we've got a little bit of video, which is everything on the conflict floor, everything on the platform, and really it was um it's a bit even now, you know, even now you meet the people and they are raising their hands and saying, Hallelujah! And and and going like, yeah. Yes, even down as I was waiting down there going to the breakfast, and people were saying, people are still showing excitement, people are still dancing, people are still saying thank you, Lord. So this is something that people have been waiting for. And I think what they have been waiting for is not just to say the future is here, it's saying finally things are clear. I know where I'm heading, I know where I'm going. Finally, there are leaders I can trust, finally, with the orthodox belief and the Bible teaching that people who are actually holding it seriously, tensioning it, and realizing it is something that we have to change. We have to take nothing. And uh out of there is gonna be 208. Everybody thought that something is going to change. People are going to return. People are going to come together. 13, nothing happens. 218, nothing happens. And yet people are really pushing this message. People are hoping, people are praying. And there are some areas where you felt like uh the leadership, the category leadership was also kind of somehow said, yeah, we are in, no, we are out. I think Welby gave a lot of hopes to people thinking that something will happen. But there are also people who felt betrayed, who felt uh, you know, I remember him saying, I'm an Evangel Kong, I'm uh uh I can identify myself with East Africa revival. And you would think, okay, so apply discipline to this. Okay, bring people back together. Okay, uh don't let this go any farther. Uh but he did see that coming. He said you would see changes, changes, changes. So though we celebrate, but it was said that people will not repent, that people will not, it's like almost like hoarding on institutional pride, if I can use that term. And it's hard. But at the same time, we are excited, we are ready to move, people are happy, and uh it's an eye for the gospel and for the proclamation of the gospel.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

Now, as I reflect, the theological emphasis that um how unity is theological, not geographical. That's very important, isn't it?

Hopes, Delays, And Broken Instruments

SPEAKER_03 7:24

It is very important because um you can divide the people any way you want. But what brings us together is Christ, is our unity in Christ. What brings us together is our doctrine. What brings us together is our tradition. What brings us together is the teaching of the scripture. When you take that away, it doesn't matter, even relationship doesn't work anymore because you cannot say this is my brother, this is my sister in Christ. And so the whole geographical thing or the Sea of Cantony or here or there, it doesn't come. What counts is that doctrine, is that teaching of the scripture that holds us together. That's where our unity is.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

Now, in Kidal in 23, uh we were expecting the group of primates from the global south and the group of leaders from GAFCON to work together to bring this about. Um I'm just reflecting on how different the our final outcome that we've got has turned out to be, given that the global south primates haven't come on the journey. And um how do you think it it's different?

SPEAKER_03 8:49

It is different, and we have to admit to that some of the global south primates came. There are people who are in both camps. Yeah. There are people who are in the global south, there are people who are in in uh in the global Anglican communion. And um of course, Kigari gave a lot of hope. We stood together, we we we were on the same page. We were ready to move to follow.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Together.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

In fact, one would have thought that this is somewhere going to converge down the road somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Well, that's what Justin Bash rather said to me. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

And we hoped it, we wanted it. And um we even went and tried to uh propose ways of collaboration. But I think soon we realize these are two movements, these are two organizations that have to move parallel, but somehow leave enough time for when it is all possible to come together. Um and I think that the global south has a lot of orthodox leaders, bishops, and and provinces. There are others that do not know where they are exactly, or they know where they stand and where they are, they may be even orthodox, but there is a little hand out there that is wanting something, and they cannot pull it back because they fear if I pull it back, this that I was expecting, whether it is money, whether it is what, I'm going to lose it. So that keeps the tie. Um but I think here is what I think GovCon in 208 had a message. The Jerusalem declaration. We kept that moving that direction. We stayed a course. 13 2013 was the same thing. I think global south, you hear them after the wash the and the Ashwennies.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

Started right, the Ashwinis.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Which was a great statement, which is when you first hear them come out. But after that, um, I know they have done some conferences. Anyway, let me put it this way. We continue to pray that the Lord will bring that together. But uh but something somewhere went wrong, and I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

And I'm hoping that what will happen is now that we can see what the global ang the shape of the global Anglican Communion and what it looks like, and that it is Christ-centered and theologically, that actually we'll now see invitations out and a number of other provinces join up.

Unity As Theological Not Geographical

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Well, the Global Anglican Communion, we have our arms open to embrace whoever will come. And the door is open. Whoever will come, sign the Jerusalem Declaration. That is the entry, that is the way you come in and be part of us. If you want to get, of course, into the leadership of the Global Anglican Communion, yes, you will send that Jerusalem Declaration, but you also have to reject some of the instruments or the instruments that have not worked for us in the past. Now, these instruments have not worked because people in the leadership didn't apply the discipline. The instruments in themselves could have worked had the leadership exercised the discipline that is required to hold people accountable. But there was no accountability. And so my my prayer and my hope is that whoever orthodoxy believer wants to come, the door is open and we will embrace them whole health country.

SPEAKER_04 12:53

Can we just talk about um as I've looked at some of the reporting on the Bambuja conference that's uh been done by the secular media, there's two narratives that I've seen floating around. One is that you've taken this step because the new leader of the well, the new Archbishop of Canary is a woman. Do you want to respect to that?

SPEAKER_03 13:15

Yes, I think that's a wrong uh assumption. I think there's a wrong narrative. I think what it is all about is about the Bible. It's about the teaching of the Bible. If you go against the teaching of the Bible, that's what is wrong. It's not about the fact that he is a woman leading the communion. Of course, we know that there are provinces that do not embrace that, they do not allow women in episcopacy, not even in priesthood, but there are other provinces within the global Anglican communion that allow women in priesthood. And um uh so the rejection of her leadership is not based on the fact that she's a woman. The rejection of leadership is based on the the first teaching and and not not putting the Bible at the center. It is about the authority of scripture. So when you go wrong on that, how can we walk together? We are not equally yoked. And I think that's where the issue is. So let us not look elsewhere, let us look at what the scripture teaches.

SPEAKER_04 14:35

And in fact, the trajectory was set in Kigali a long time before.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Yes, before she came. It's not only in Kigali. You go back to 2008, go back to 13, go back to 2023. It's really way before she came.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

Yeah. And also, I just want to put to you um the other narrative I'm seeing around is that you've taken this step as an anti-LGBT move.

Global South, Gafcon, And Diverging Paths

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Again, that's wrong. Again, we need to come back to the scripture. We need to come back to the Bible. The LGTP, however you want to call it, they're welcome. Let them come to the church. Let come, let them find Christ. Let their lives be transformed. We are not saying no, don't come to church. We are not saying no, don't be part of us. If you want to come, come. Let the Holy Spirit touch your life, let the teaching of the scripture touch your life. Let God Himself speak to you through His word.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

On uh on the uh Sanchex issue, uh I noticed Vaughan Roberts, uh one of the delegates, um, and a friend of mine giving out uh this book from his address at the Lasan Conference, um, full of grace and truth, the uh gospel and sexuality in the global church. You were at that Lasan Conference, you've heard that address, and you've reviewed this book saying on the back coverage says must read. And what he really does is he, I mean, to use Anglican language, he pushes down both poles of Lambeth 110 by saying we need to be faithful to the truth, but also extending grace.

Open Door Via The Jerusalem Declaration

SPEAKER_03 16:24

Do you want to speak to that? Well, it is true. We need to be favored to the truth, but we need no hate people. We don't want to hate people. We don't want to say, no, you don't belong to the church. No, we want to say, come, come into the church. Come hear the word of God. So I think I think we need to respect each other and we need to respect people. We need to respect people for who they are. And instead pray that Christ will find them where they are, and they will come to him, and they will come to repentance. So we are not we are not saying, no, we can't I cannot shake your hand, but I can if you come to the church, I will close the door on you. No, I will not close the door on you. I wish you could come. I wish you'd you would come and listen to the word of God. And I would pray that the Holy Spirit will touch your life and you'll be transformed. You say, I want to come and be in leadership. Well come, let the time work for you. Come closer to the Lord. And if you repent, and if you've transformed, well, the doors is open for you to be where you want to be because of God's plan for your life, because of God's love, because of believing and trusting God for who He is, for that transformation. The old has gone, the new has come if we have taken that step. So you renounce that belief. You you I think there are people probably who are in that category who have who have changed their mind because of the scripture. Now what happens now? What's the next step? Well, well, the next it the next is exciting. The future is here, and we are global Anglican communion, and now we need to go out and take that word of God and teach it to our people, disciple them, proclaim Christ. I think I think for me it is almost a renewed Matthew 28, Matthew 28. Go and make disciples. We have to go and care for people, we have to go and meet the needs of people where we are. We have to go and proclaim Christ and shameful to the nations. We are to minister to people holistically. Now we need to focus. We need to preach the word of God. We need to teach the word of God. We need to reach the youth. We need to minister to the women. We need to minister to the poor. We need to we need one of one of a passion that I have of mind now is to look at people who are drifting in the so-called because they are poor, or are looking for resources in places where they shouldn't be looking. And that is destructive. We need to think of ways of supporting our ministry, of sustaining our ministry from the resources that come from our own countries. I'm not saying we will not partner with uh Australia or US in the gospel preaching. Yes, we will need each other and we have to collaborate, we have to work together, we have to come together. But at the same time, we cannot compromise the gospel because of the little thing that you are dropping into my head. And if that is going to corrupt the message I'm going to give to me, if that is what is going to dictate, and it's part of the colonial mentality of controlling, of divide and rule, then I reject that completely. I'd rather be poor than be manipulated. I'd rather be poor and compromise what I believe and all that. I would rather be poor and see the money there that you are dwingling like this and be truthful to the teaching of the scripture and not touch that money.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

Now, you talked about not being manipulated by money being dangled. Um I see the Anglican aid are organizing this global Anglican Communion Fund. Um is that help in that area?

Media Narratives Addressed

SPEAKER_03 21:29

I think that's great. I think that's help in that area, and that is very that's welcomed. I also think that Anglican Aid has done quite a number of things to theological education, to uh some of the economic empowerment for women. I think that has been really great and very helpful. It is something similar to that global fund that they're talking about that can pull people up. Where we can have funds, or that that will help maybe develop some income generating activities for the churches, for the dioceses, for the process to be able to sustain themselves and sustain the ministry and actually fund the ministry and programs that they want to do. I've done that in Rwanda. I can see that the work. So I think that's what that's what we are looking into. How we can empower. And sometimes it's not just the money that you have to pump in. Sometimes it's a poverty mindset somewhere. I don't have this, and yet it is in front of you. What is it that you have in your head? So I think I think rather than propagating this poverty mentality, we need to look back and say, what do we have in our hands? A church that is not self-governing, self-propagating and self-supporting, sweat struggle. And I'm not sure if it's a church. So uh as we don't want to create a social welfare by just expecting what comes from there. One time I was offered money by one of these um uh foundations and episcopal uh tech. And I was given ten thousand dollars just written to me. I still have a picture of it. But then I asked myself a question why are they giving me this money? I did ask for it. Oh, you are a new archbishop, and you know, people will come to you. Plus, you can be part of us, you have lived in the West, you understand this culture, you can help your brother bishops. That was a dangerous slope because I immediately saw that they want to use me to get to my brother bishops, and uh so we give you this gift called the gift, but it was really buying me.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

And so I said, no, I'll take it, God bless you. I can't take this now.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

You took a photograph.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

I took a photograph of it, I have it. If you ever want it, I'll show it to you. And but it was an entryway to try to manipulate me so that I can help manipulate my brothers. So I think what we now we have to do, we need to move and have programs for youth, have programs for women, have programs that pull people out of poverty, preach the gospel. Christ came so that they may have life, so that we may have life and have it in abundance. And this is not about the prosperity gospel, it is about ministering to the total person.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

As I watch what's been going on here this past week, I've seen uh great groups running around and uh doing an amazing job of networking to encourage ministry to children and youth. Um I've watched Bill Salia and the theological college networks. Um, we've seen great things happening with the bishop training and um talked to one bishop this week who'd been on the conference, the bishop's training conference, and spoke about how hopeful it was. Um my question is there's words about preaching Christ. But what are we going to do in terms of structurally encouraging preaching Christ within the Bible for the evangelism?

Grace And Truth On Sexuality

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Yes. First of all, I think we need to equip people. Equip them, build their capacity, but also provide them materials. I think we need to network and develop strategic alliances with those that are doing great work for the kingdom, those that have the skills, that have the capacity, that have the developed materials. You are talking about uh theological um education. Let us network our institutions so that they can complement each other, so that they can support one another, so that they can resource each other. You are talking about the youth. Yes, let us expand that. Expand that. Let us invite others in. Let us also equip our pastors, our young pastors, our young people to be able to deliver that message, to be able to teach the youth, to be able to relate to the youth of today's today, who are facing a lot of pressures from this influence of today's culture, if I may say that word. Um so uh at BTI, we will continue BTI, we will develop it even more further. Um, and that has been great. Bishop's training. Yes, bishop's training, you know. And uh so, yes, so we want to want to continue to develop uh bishop training even further. We want to and and not just keep it to the new bishops. We want almost having what I would call almost like a continuing education for even those who are on service. Maybe even provide opportunities for them to come together in a non-formal sitting. Let them be peer conscious of each other. Let them share the success and the frustration they are facing. And I think my hope would be that even pastors will get opportunities like that to be able to share their frustrations, to pray for one another, to share what works and what doesn't work, to uh I think that's to support each other in the advancement of uh of the gospel and the proclamation. So, yes, youth, uh theological education, bishop's training, women's ministry, and of course church market. So we needed to look into those networks that we have developed. Some have worked very well, others have not gotten the energy to move forward and actually pour more energy into that, bring people that can help us in that area, prayerfully, prayerfully seek ways we can expand um some of the work that is being done in some countries. You know, talk about the Gensec, the the the um the Ministry for Youth here in um in Nigeria or in Brazil. How can we expand that to us?

SPEAKER_04 29:17

Thanks very much for talking to us today. Thank you. Archbishop Laurent Mbanda, the uh Prime of Rwanda, and new chair of the uh Global Anglican Council, which is leading the Global Anglican Communion. My name's Dominic Spilly. Been brought to you by AnglicanAid and uhanglicanate.org. And uh thanks for joining us. We'll see you next Tuesday afternoon on the Pastor's Heart.