Vaughan Roberts: Grace and Truth on Sexuality and the Global Church

We tackle one of the most sensitive issues facing the global church — sexuality. 

Vaughan Roberts, senior minister of St Ebbe’s Oxford, speaks as both pastor and theologian. In this interview he reflects on deeply personal pastoral encounters — Christians struggling with pornography, same-sex attraction, gender incongruence, and the pain of confusing messages from churches.

In Abuaja, Nigeria, Vaughan Roberts, distributed his new book Full of Grace and Truth: The Gospel and Sexuality in the Global Church to more than 470 bishops, clergy and lay leaders of the Global Anglican Communion.

At the heart of Roberts’ argument is the argument: God is for sex. Sex is for marriage. Marriage is for life. And ultimately life is for Christ. 

Roberts’ challenge cuts in two directions. He cautions revisionist Christians not to abandon biblical truth, while also urging conservatives to move beyond moralism to the transforming beauty of the gospel.

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Transcript

Sponsor: Resourcing Global Anglican Ministry

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you gave me. I studied the diploma in theology at Bunda Bible College. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained with support from Anglican Aid in the last five years. When you give to Anglican Aid's Global Anglican Communion Fund, you'll help resource the world's poorest diocese to preach Christ faithfully and care for people in need. Visit Anglicanaid.org.

Abuja Setup And Vaughan’s Book

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Grace and Truth, the Gospel and Sexuality in the Global Church. It is the Pastor's Heart. It's Dominic Steele in a special interview today from Abuja, Nigeria, with old friend Vaughan Roberts. Vaughan and I were delegates at the big Anglican conference with the whole launching ratification of the new global Anglican Communion. And our coverage from Abuja, brought to you by AnglicanAid, go to Anglicanaid.org. Vaughan is senior minister of the influential St. Ebbs Church in Oxford in the UK. And on the side of the conference, on the third day, as delegates arrived, Vaughan gave out his new book, full of grace and truth, to all 475 delegates, bishops, clergy, members, leaders from 24 dioceses across the Anglican Communion. Now, Vaughan, can we start with your pastor's heart? Because I was reflecting on the things that we've talked about here, and uh, if I'm reading you right and just looking at the title of the book, your heart is for the Christian leader to have a heart for truth and a heart for grace.

Grace, Truth, And Marriage Teaching

SPEAKER_02 1:44

You're right, Dominic. I mean, that surely should be the heart of all Christians because we're following the Lord Jesus. And in this context, the crisis in the Anglican Union has been triggered by a departure from the truth of God's word on matters of marriage. And we've rightly said, no, God's teaching on marriage goes right back to the Garden of Eden. This is not something we can adapt. So truth matters, but in the midst of all that, we're all messed up. Sin affects us all in all areas of life, including sexuality, and therefore it's vital that we follow the Lord Jesus, who never compromised on truth, but always showed amazing grace to everyone, struggling in all sorts of areas, including the area of sexuality. And I think that matters hugely.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

And because I read this book in the context of attending the uh Abuja conference, uh, and you've called it truth and grace, or grace and truth, but um uh Bishop Paul Donison, in his opening address at the very start of the conference, uh, was speaking in Anglican language really and referred to Lambeth 110 and both sides of Lambeth 110. Can you talk about that and what that means in terms of grace and truth? Certainly.

Lambeth 1.10: Truth And Compassion

SPEAKER_02 3:02

I mean for those who are not familiar with the the Anglican history. Which would be many people. Exactly. The Lambeth Conference is a gathering of um bishops from around the Anglican Communion, so that's right around the world. And in 1998 they gathered, and uh there were certain provinces, certain parts of the Anglican Communion trying to push on the boundaries of areas of sexual morality, in particular talking about blessing same-sex unions. And the Lambeth Conference issued Lambeth 110, which said we cannot support the blessings of same-sex unions, because that's to go against God's teaching that the place for sex is in the marriage of one man and one woman. So that was one very important aspect of Lambeth 110. The other side was to recognize that in all our congregations there are those who experience same-sex attraction, and we need to show compassion, we need to listen to their experience and uh be pastoral in our approach to them. So that there's a model, I think, Lambeth 110, of full of grace and and truth.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Both sides of it are really important. And um actually, it's a statement that I think we'd say, here we are 30 odd years later, we'd say has um has stood the test of time really well.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Yeah, absolutely. But both um both realities are vital. And um we're not always, well, sadly, um in the West, uh we've we've ignored, in the Church of England, for instance, we've ignored uh one aspect of it, but we're all struggling also, I think, to apply properly the other aspect of it.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Now, as you opened up in this book, you start with your pastor's heart and you talk about six different Christian people who've come to you and spoken very vulnerably about their struggles with sexuality. Can you take us into some of their lives?

Vaughan’s Openness Sparks Confession

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Sure. I mean, I should say, um, for those who don't know, I've been open about my own experience of same-sex attraction. And I never really thought I would do that, but it was partly as I was needing to be very clear on God's teaching and the truth of these things that I thought I probably ought to just be open about the fact that part of my reality is ongoing experience of same-sex attraction. Because in the West, we were getting the need to reaffirm God's teaching on this, but actually, there weren't for those who were struggling in this area, there were very few models of any way of being able to do this with an ongoing experience of same-sex attraction and holding to the teaching of God's word. So that's the background of this.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Well, well, let's just push into that for a minute. Um, as you've been vulnerable in that area yourself, um uh what different reactions have you got from I mean, I'm I'm presuming on the one hand, you being vulnerable has caused other people to come and be vulnerable to you. Let's let's just push down there for a minute.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Yeah, well that's what I was going to go on to. You mentioned the the stories I'm I say in the book. Um yes, I think people feel okay, I could talk to him. You could trust this. I could talk to him. And especially in in cross-cultural settings, because there are some contexts, many contexts around the world, where these things are just not talked about. And not only are they not talked about, in some settings, that the the language implies these are Western issues, and the implication is people in our culture don't experience these kind of struggles, and that that makes it a very, very hard context for someone who's who's experiencing a struggle in a particular area to open up to um a friend or a pastor because these things are taboo, um, they don't feel they'd be accepted, they're even frightened, they might be sort of not welcomed in the church. So I found in cross-cultural context, especially, again and again, people have been open to me.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

But you might have spoken at a conference or something, and then somebody will come and say, I've never said this to anyone before. Exactly. But I've yeah, I'm only feeling I mean it's a woman and she's saying I'm only feeling attractions to women.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Exactly. And and um they want to live for Christ. And in many, many cases, if not most of the cases, they are. It's not that they're living a life of sin, but they're conscious of attractions that make life particularly hard for them because they want to live according to the Bible's teaching, that sex is for marriage of a man and a woman. By the way, all of us, whatever our attractions, have desires that go against what God says. So those who are only ever attracted to the same, to the opposite sex, will will not want to um express those attractions only in the way God intends, which is within a marriage. So these are struggles we're all facing, but for some it's particular in issues of sexuality.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

It's interesting you say that, because um I'll I'll test an idea on you. Um my theory is is that it's um it's a continuum rather than a binary, and um uh and that we all get tempted in different areas to just break God's commands in different and I I have done spoken to many, many, many more men about sexuality than women, but I've tried a conversation line, just when it's been me and another guy, and I've said um, I don't know any guy who's said I've never had uh same-sex attraction thought. And nobody in the the quiet privacy of the cafe has said, Oh, I never have, you know. Um uh which has made me think that yeah, I mean there'll be some people who've uh been exclusively same-sex attracted, but the but for lots of people we've been tempted to different degrees in different areas to not live God's way. Do you want to comment on that?

When Change Promises Harm People

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Yeah, certainly true. I I have met people who say they've only ever had opposite sex attractions, but you're right, that there's a there's a kind of spectrum. And um in the West, too often we're defining ourselves according to where we fit on the spectrum. And I should say my identity is not according to my sexuality at all. Um but for some it's a bigger struggle. So if it's predominantly or exclusively opposite sex attraction to fit within what God is saying is is likely to be a bit easier. Not to say there's not going to be temptations in marriage and so on. So definitely there are struggles for all of us to live according to our sexual desires in God's way, but they're gonna be bigger struggles for others, and for some who would say, I've never experienced an opposite sex attraction, and um God could change people, but that's very unusual, and that's the bigger challenge. And I think in some cultures there's an assumption that this is something that they should change, and if they were only open to the miraculous power of God, that that would happen. So just occasionally in some cultures, where where someone is brave enough to open up, then there's there's prayer, sometimes even for the casting out of a demon, and an expectation that will deal with it. And if the person really has faith, it will deal with that's devastating. So some of the people have spoken to me said that's they've they've gone through uh pastoral care, which is all about changing sexual orientation, and it hasn't changed them, and then they feel, well, who can I talk to now? And the reality is God hasn't promised to change our challenges and our temptations, He does promise transformation. But transformation needn't be in terms of our attractions and our design, it could be, but it needn't be. Uh, that hasn't happened in my case. But uh the the living power of the Lord Jesus means I want to live for him, and so there's been a huge change, and it's ongoing change in my life in all areas, as I want to live for him, and therefore say no to what I believe to be wrong. That's the kind of partial care that I think we need to um move towards. But it begins with a culture in which people feel able to open about struggle and be safe to do that.

Making Church Safe For Strugglers

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Yeah. And I'll come back to how we create that safe space for the conversations in a minute. But um, you've spoken out in the Lasanne conference in a well, that's a very significant cross-cultural setting on this, and you gave a big talk, and and this book, Full of Grace and Truth, is actually kind of a summary of your talk there. What was the reaction you got, um, if you like, from both polls uh when you gave that address?

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Well, it it's punishing teaching to everyone in a way, because um I grieve over the fact that in the West there are increasing numbers who are saying um we've got to move away from what the Bible clearly says. Um, we've got to reinterpret the Bible because of the reality of the world we're finding ourselves in. And I want to say very strongly, the Bible is clear. Um sex is for the marriage of a man and a woman, and we mustn't move away from that. So some people find that hard, especially those who are wanting to say we still believe the Bible, we think the Bible believes something different. And I think that that is um special pleading. It's not persuasive. I think it's a matter of biblical authority and faithfulness to Christ. So there's a bit of pushback there. At the Lausanne Congress, it was a Congress for evangelical believers, and so I didn't get pushback on that side at Lausanne. I do get it certainly in England and around the West a lot. Um, I think on the on the other side, in appealing for partial understanding and sensitivity, um, there there was a communication challenge, and I think there are some cultures in which it's just very hard to comprehend that the reality that someone like myself can say, I experience same-sex attraction ongoingly, and my attractions are only to the same-sex, and yet I don't want to live that way, I'm not living that way, I'm I'm a Christian. That that's very hard to understand for some in some cultures where these things aren't talked about. And so the assumption for some is it is is he to talk about same-sex attraction or homosexual is the assumption this is someone who's living a particular lifestyle. So it's a language problem. And um so there were those who were confused, a bit unsettled. There are others who are worried if we start this pastoral approach, if if we when we speak about these issues in our culture, we don't talk about them as just challenges in the West. But we recognise this is not just an issue, it's about people, and it's about people in the room. It's going to be real in my congregation. There's some worry there's some fear that if we kind of uh open up to that reality, then it could almost encourage people down that road rather than just this is unthinkable. Um I I I get that concern when but but it the reality is it is in the room, it's in our cultures, it's in our churches, and especially now with the um the internet, the sexual revolution has impacted the whole world. And uh, especially young people are watching material um that their parents have no idea they're watching, and that's pornography, but not just pornography. And many are struggling in all areas of sexuality, not just same-sex attraction. But because these things aren't talked about, um the older generation have no idea what's going on with the younger generation. And the danger is the younger generation are kind of schizophrenic, they're they're respectful to their elders, that they're affirming God's word, not least in sexuality, in their churches. But in their hearts and what they're doing online, they're living a different way. And increasingly that is playing out in how they're living in in the physical world as well. And you're saying that's the case in Africa and Asia and throughout the world. And so that there's a desperate need for leaders to begin to address these things, not just as sins and struggles of the West, but as partial realities throughout the world.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Now I can see uh just listening to you now, how you might kind of throw a line out into the congregation as you're preaching that would uh indicate that this is a lived experience for me and therefore I'm safe to come and talk to. Um, how would you say, what's your advice for the pastor? And I'm I'm thinking advice for me, but advice for a pastor in Africa, a pastor in Korea or in Asia or somewhere like that, about how we might modify our preaching to actually speak to that person in the room. And how has it been done helpfully for you, I guess when you were are much more private about these things for yourself?

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Sure, I I think it changes things enormously if the pastor is consciously thinking, not just about the world out there and another culture out there. No, there could be people in the room. So just that mindset shift. Uh one line that hugely helped me, I remember a pastor saying, talking about sex and and God's teaching on sex, he said, we we we all struggle. We're all sexual sinners, we're all sexual strugglers, and we'll have our different areas of sexual sin and sexual struggle. Um for some it might be and he listed various things and included for some it might be um experience of same-sex attraction, and he said, What whatever it is, please don't let this be a lonely battle. Um please talk. We'd love to talk to you. And just just acknowledging that this was one struggle amongst many, and that there'd be some in the room that might be struggling in these kind of ways, and the kind way in which he said, Don't let this be a lonely battle, made me think there's someone I could speak to.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Which I did. He did. He went up to talk to him after the well, a couple of days after the conference or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

And and that was the first time you'd shared your story with anyone, or no, I'd I'd I'd mentioned to one other person before, but there's shame in in this area of sex, and that can be multiplied uh depending on our culture. And isolation, of course, is a terrible breeding ground for on for sin to grow. And so um sh there's a there's a healthy side to shame, there's some things we should feel shameful about, but there's an unhealthy side to a complete shameful secrecy. I could never talk about anything, and and that that can then just become a very lonely place to be. And especially in the modern world, people will medicate that, I fear, by looking onto the internet where they'll get an illusion of connection and community. We need our churches to be those places where there's that connection with the real person, not my polished self. And that's true in all areas of life, not just sexuality. That on the one hand, holding firm to God's standards. We're not softening on that. We're holding to a very high standard of godliness. But on the other hand, recognizing we all mess up, always struggle. And church needs to be a place where we're holding ourselves to the highest standards, but we're helping one another when we're struggling and when we're falling. We're communities of truth and grace. That's what we need to be modeling.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Now, you've been involved in the livingout.org group in the UK. That's the URL, isn't it? Um, just thinking about people watching on the internet could go. And I've been involved helping out with the Living Faith Group parallel organization in Sydney helping but and and both of those websites will have information for pastors on how to help people. But what's your advice for the pastor who has young Vaughan come and say, hey, I just connected with what you said in that talk. Um how do you want us to handle that first conversation?

Pastoral First Steps: Listen Speak Grace

SPEAKER_02 19:50

I think the first thing to do is listen. And um, Lambeth 110 talks about listening. That's a good place to begin. And not to make assumptions, um, but just to listen. And and because very likely that's a circumstance in which this individual hasn't spoken to either anyone or very few before, and there'll be a a great fear of um rejection, and so just letting the story out and part partially kindly listening, and then above all, I think, uh speaking about the love of God. So if someone's speaking um to a pastor, the chances are they're not wanting to live in an ungodly lifestyle. Yeah, they want help to live for Jesus. So this isn't the time to remind them of the the horrors of sin. Um, they're aware of that. It's it's a time to remind them of the beauties of grace. And um, too often I think we can be heard, doesn't mean we're doing it, but we can be heard to be preaching morality, and above all, of course, we're preaching Christ and Christ and his grace, which is the only power by which we can begin to live a godly life, not least in the area of sexuality. So speak, Grace. God loves you. Thank you so much, thank you, thank you so much. The other thing I'd do is always um maybe a day later, communicate again and say, Thank you so much for speaking to me. I'm so grateful you felt able to open up to me. Because very likely that individual is thinking, oh no, I don't believe I said all that. What is she thinking of me? What is he thinking of me? He probably thinks I'm not a Christian, probably disgusted by me, or whatever. So some kind of follow up saying, Thank you so much. I really appreciate that, we'll go a long way.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

Hmm. And then I mean, I th it's gonna be a long journey of relationship after that, and caring for them after that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Yeah, it depends on the person. I mean the areas of struggle will be different. To be honest, for me, there wasn't a huge amount of angst. I just thought, well, this is this is this seems to be the reality. I kind of thought I'd grow out of it, but I just didn't. And um that the harder thing was the sense of isolation that people, you know, I I'm single, and people assuming there might be reasons for that that there weren't. And so a sense that there were things about my life that wouldn't be understood without me opening up about this other reality. But some will be, you know, just stuck in terrible patterns of isolation, shame, sin, and that there's a big mixture.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Um, you run through a number of headings. God is for sex, sex is for marriage, marriage is for life, life is for Christ.

Sex, Marriage, Singleness, Christ’s Union

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Go. Well, I mean, there's a simple summary. God is for sex. So we shouldn't be embarrassed about our sexuality. God made us male and female, and he created sex. This this is this is a wonderful gift of God. So let's let's not be afraid to talk about it. God isn't embarrassed about bodies, God is for sex. Sex is for marriage, right there in the beginning. God created male and female, and he he brought male and female together in marriage, Genesis 2.24. So sex is for marriage. Marriage is for life. Um, what God has joined together, let no one divide. In a messed up world, sadly, God allowed for divorce, but this is never God's intention. But then the final one, life is for Christ, is a reminder that God's design of human beings as male and female and joining together in marriage, that that all speaks about the ultimate union for which we were created, which is the union with God. And so, of course, in in Paul in Ephesians chapter 5 quotes Genesis 2, 24 a man will leave his father and mother, be not his wife, the two will become one flesh. And he says, I'll tell you a mystery, I'm talking about Christ and his church. In other words, the fundamental marriage for which we were created is not the marriage of a man and woman, but of God and his people, Christ and His church. And human marriage is a reflection of that reality. That changes everything. So if we're living in a culture that implies there's something wrong with you until you've got married, well, hang on. Uh, we're not designed, that's a beautiful thing, but ultimately we're designed for a relationship with Christ. So as a single person, I'm not missing out on the most important relationship. I I'm joined, I'm in a marriage with Christ, which will last for eternity, unlike any human marriage. So we shouldn't exalt marriage and make that the be-all and end all, and that life is not worth living until we found a marriage. That, by the way, puts impossible pressures on marriages because you've got to be my saviour. You've got to make life worth living for me.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

Now that's a place that only Christ can fill. Yeah, let me just push in there because um I noticed on page 26, and I wrote this quote down from you, you said, our sexual and emotional longings express a yearning for union that will never be fully satisfied in any human relationship.

unknown 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah, it's so important to realise that.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

I mean uh the the the just I'm not gonna think I shouldn't be dissatisfied with my marriage because it's not perfect. No, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

So there's a yearning for sex, and people kind of assume oh well uh having sex will satisfy that yearning for sex. Of course it doesn't. So the person never had sex thinking, oh, I'll never be happy until I've had sex. And then that Satan comes and says, You'll never have to be happy until you had sex with someone else. But the yearning for sex is ultimately not a yearning for sex, it's a yearning for intimacy, deep intimate with another person. But then you find that in a marriage, and you find not even that does it. However good the marriage may be, there's still a yearning for more. That's because ultimately we're designed for Christ. And so the best marriages are between people who are not looking for ultimate satisfaction in one another, but are recognizing that can only come from Christ. And the more our love tank is filled by Him, the more we're able to love one another. And the more we're we're able to persevere in life with our unfulfilled longings, including our unfulfilled sexual longings.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

He had a line on page 27 that uh was addressing single Christians. Single Christians need to be encouraged that they're not alone. We may not experience a sexual romantic relationship, but that certainly need not and should not mean a life without intimacy. The pain of unfulfilled sexual and emotional longings can even be used in God's kindness to strengthen our dependence and delight in Him.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

It's true of all struggles, isn't it? That don't we look back and often think it's it's been through the hardest times when I haven't been able to look at to other realities in life. That I've I've I've had to look to Christ and then I found He's there and He's precious and He's real. And so one of the challenges for those who are in a very, very happy marriage is they can think, well, we can satisfy one another, and the danger there is they're not looking to Christ. And certainly many uh single friends of mine have known, we would say that actually, as in all struggles in life, it's through the hardship that Christ becomes more precious and more real.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

Why don't you finish our conversation by leading in prayer? Sure.

Prayer, Thanks, And Farewell

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Loving Father, we thank you so much for Jesus, who was full of grace and truth. Forgive us when we've not stood for your truth in this area. And those of us who are Anglican feel that especially in the in the compromises in Anglicanism in the West, and we're so sorry. And please help us to be firm on the teaching of your word, which is your good design. And then we're sorry for ways in which we've not shown the grace we should have done, either deliberately or or just without meaning to. We've not been as partially sensitive as we should have been. So give us the wisdom to know how best to show loving care for those who struggle, not least in this area of sexuality. May we follow the example of Jesus and be full of grace and truth. In his name we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Amen. My guest on the pastor's heart, uh, Vaughan Roberts, Senior Minister of St. Ebb's in Oxford in the UK, and uh author of this new book, Full of Grace and Truth, the Gospel and Sexuality in the Global Church. My name is Dominic Steele. You've been with us on The Pastor's Heart, brought to you today from Abuja, Nigeria, courtesy of Anglican Aid, go to anglicanAid.org. We will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.