Are evangelicals losing confidence in low-church evangelicalism? - with Orlando Saer

What’s going on? Is this a reaction against thin, seeker-friendly evangelicalism? Spiritual nostalgia? 

Across the Western church, some younger Christians seem to be searching for deeper roots: tradition, transcendence, beauty, liturgy, sacraments and a stronger sense of connection with the historic church.

Some evangelicals have become Roman Catholic or even Orthodox. Even a church formerly affiliated with the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches (FIEC) in the UK has become Orthodox.

Orlando Saer, senior pastor of Christ Church Southampton, describes himself as something of a “spiritual mongrel”, shaped by Roman Catholic, high Anglican, low Anglican, independent Baptist and FIEC influences.

On sabbatical in Australia, Orlando has been thinking deeply about why Christians are longing for rootedness, transcendence and tradition, and how evangelical leaders should respond.

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Transcript

Why We’re Asking For Support

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Hey, I just checked, and we've so far published 469 episodes of the Pastors Heart since we started in 2018. That's one a week for eight and a half years. We're asking for your help in funding the Pastors Heart via the Pastorsheart.net slash support. Each week we serve an average of 5,000 Christian leaders from across Australia, the UK, New Zealand, US, Africa, and Asia, but especially leaders in Australia. We're looking for support from everyone, but particularly if you're in Australia and you're interested in tax-deductible giving, we're looking for your help to raise $40,000 before the end of the Australian tax year on the 30th of June to pay for research, production, recording, and distribution. We are $5,000 down, $35,000 to go. It'd be great if you could jump online, get involved, go to thepastorsheart.net slash support. Orlando Sayer is our guest. It is the Pastor's Heart. It's Dominic Steele, and across the Western Church, there seems to be a renewed hunger for tradition, for transcendence, liturgy, sacraments, and historical rootedness. Some individual evangelicals are leaving for Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. Some churches are adopting practices once associated with very different traditions: candles, robes, prayer books, church calendars, ancient liturgies, sacramental languages,

A New Hunger For Ancient Worship

SPEAKER_03 2:14

and more formal worship. And even whole congregations are reconsidering their denominational identity. What is driving this? Is it a healthy recovery of Christian heritage, or is it a symptom of weakness, spiritual nostalgia, or theological drift? And how should evangelical churches think about tradition without losing the clarity, urgency, and freedom of the gospel? Today, on The Pastor's Heart, we're speaking with Orlando Sayer. Orlando is senior pastor of Christchurch Southampton in the UK and chair of the trustees of the 938 ministry. He's spending his sabbatical in Australia thinking deeply about these questions. Orlando, is there a change going on among the younger generation that we need to be paying attention to?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Thank you, Dominic. It's lovely to be here with you. I think the answer is yes, there is a change, uh, and it is discernible. I don't think it's enormous. Maybe we could chat about the extent of it in due course, but I think there is certainly a sense in which we're seeing anecdotal evidence at the very least of young people

Young Evangelicals Moving To Rome

SPEAKER_01 3:28

in particular looking for things that they the previous generation weren't looking for. My son is a student and he lives in a house of four evangelicals, and two of them converted to Roman Catholicism last year. Uh two of them. Two of them. Tell me more. So that was it was simply, I mean, one I'm sure was following the other, and their explorations took them um in that direction. But the fact that they all started off as simply keen members of the um Christian Union. Um and uh and yet there was that sort of direction of travel that they are in a very different place now from where they were just a year ago, it's it seems significant. And we're beginning to see I mean we had that here too.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

I mean, yeah, a guy turned up here, he'd been at the bridge church. Yeah, um, they'd changed position on women's ministry, and he basically thought, how can you claim the Bible's your authority and then change position on a key thing? And he's just become he he came here for a four or five weeks, but he'd already started going to the Catholic Church and he's he's now become a Roman Catholic and done that whole thing. I mean, sounds similar.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

I think that's right, and it's operating not just at the level of individuals, but whole churches. So I think we as a constituency were found ourselves scratching our heads a little bit when an FIEC church in the UK last year uh left the FIEC as a church to turn to uh Eastern Orthodoxy.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

And when you say that, uh I mean, w when I think of an FIEC church, so I mean, we're an

When Whole Churches Change Tradition

SPEAKER_03 5:15

anti-acronym program, so fellowship of independent evangelical churches. Thank you. And when I hear that term here, I'm thinking low church, evangelical, bible alone, um not much respect for um, well, vestments and traditions and down the candlestick, you know? And so, I mean, that doesn't happen overnight. How do you get from there to there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

I think it was minister-led, um, and the minister who led the change um had had things going on in his mind for a while, but this public statement at the very least uh was relatively clear that they had it was actually their study of the Bible that took them towards being attracted to a more sacramentally focused uh start of ministry and therefore to um a very different spiritual health.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

So we've both got experiences, and I'm sure it's wider than just us, of individuals making this transition, but you're actually seeing a church making this transition um as well. Um you've been thinking about it now for a few months. I mean, what's that due to your pastor's heart?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Well, it's an interesting one for me because I think, like you, Dominic, I come from a Roman Catholic background, and so there's a certain grid or a certain way in which I'm looking at some of the changes, some of the direction of travel, which I'm perhaps particularly sensitized to. I can see that this you may think you're dabbling or changing relatively light things. And for me, I'm thinking God's grace gripped me and released me from slavery

Why Ex Catholics Feel The Danger

SPEAKER_01 7:07

to to uh the things that I had put store in in a previous part of my life.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Yeah, I mean, I'm ex exactly thinking like that. For 20 years, um, I mean, I was an altar boy for seven years in my teenager thing in the Catholic Church, but for 20 years I did not know the free gift of God's salvation. And and then it was with blistering clarity that I came to understand it. And then I had to work out, well, where was my past understanding wrong? I look around at some of my evangelical peers, and I think that um sometimes I think you don't see the same danger that that I see in going back to some of those things. Is that your reading?

SPEAKER_01 8:06

I I think it is. These um these practices, traditions, um emphases, priorities are are not um separable from the system of which they were once part, and which they remain part in uh large parts of Christendom still today. And so there's there is a concern in my heart that I see, do you know? I I don't think you quite are aware of what you're doing here. Now I don't want to be patronizing because people who are people are thinking things through and trying to do the right thing, but I I uh I feel like it um I want to say to them, but please think carefully about this. Uh don't do this lightly. A practice is not a separable thing.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Let me just bowl up a couple of ideas to you, because I know you've been thinking about this stuff. Yearning for transcendence.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

I think that's there there is a sense of that. There is there is a degree to which we're thinking, um many are thinking, I think today, that whereas in the past we were very much enlightenment controlled in our thinking and therefore wanting to adapt our practices and spiritualities, even, to a relatively um straightforward

Transcendence And The Post Cafe Church Shift

SPEAKER_01 9:33

enlightenment framework, there is we've been released from that. And many people are thinking, you know, I want I want something different. I want so I'm I'm open to the weird. I I'm open to a full fat version of worship and the experience of churches. I'm I I want to I I go to church and do you know what I'm I'm asking? Where where is the big church building? As I I was expecting, where's that feeling of silence and awe? Where where's the holy water? Where's where where's the where's the communion table? Where all those kind of things. And I think those questions are being asked a little bit around the around the blocks.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

And so, I mean, you hear it a little bit in terms of the whole move away. I mean, if we go back 20 years ago, there was a move away from churchy buildings, and you look at all these new Pentecostal churches that are much more kind of auditorium field, you know, yeah. Back towards um kind of I don't know, pews and things like that. Now, I don't think it's as widespread as some would make out, but it is there.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

I think it is, and uh part of that, I suspect, is a general a generational reaction. Um, so ministers in our generation perhaps uh thinking about the previous generation and thinking, do were they too hasty to rid the church of all the vestments and the practices and the traditions and the churchiness um for the sake of mission? In other words, had we drunk too deeply from the well of seeker-sensitive church from Bill Hybels and Rick Warren and so on. So there's I think there's a little bit of that going on, but I don't think it's just that. I think feeding that are certain um as an intellectual movement as well. So many will have uh read some of the books that have been passed around over the last few years. Witcher ones, yeah. So I'm thinking of things like uh JKA Smith, You Are What You Love. Uh that book uh tried to try to make the case, I think, from my memory, that your identity is bound up with what your heart desires. But then the next step is that what your heart desires is shaped by what the heart is fed. In other words, the practices and habits of the person are shaping to the identity of the individual. And therefore, if if habit and discipline and and things like that are so um integral to making me who I am, then perhaps um tangible practices and liturgy and and so on, those things are um things that we should trust a little bit more than we once did. What's your reaction to all of that? I think my reaction is there is something there. There is something there. We are embodied individuals, we do learn things, we do develop a love for things. And you can see that very easily just by uh as you get older, you the things that were important are part of your routine and your habit and your life and your church culture and so on when you're younger. You discover how deeply they've gripped you. So I think those things are true. Um, and we want to take uh the opportunities we have to create good habits and disciplines which will serve us well. The danger is that they become not the servant, but the master. And we can start thinking, uh start being shaped by the practice divorced from the truth um or the emphasis that it was designed to communicate.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

I'm gonna play you a little bit uh of David Jensen reacting to Glenn Scrivener, and um David was talking to me about uh how to reach them the next next generation, and uh I asked him about uh Glen's comments also on this program. But we'll we'll start with Glenn Scrivener and then we'll hear David's response, and then I'll ask your you for your response.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Yeah, what about um as

Glenn Scrivener Versus David Jensen

SPEAKER_02 14:03

we've talked about this kind of revival amongst the young, and um some people have been saying we've got to go more liturgy. And um, I mean, I had a conversation with Glenn Scrivener um a couple of months ago here. He said you should go that way. I'll I'll just play that just a couple of seconds and then we'll pick that up. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

And what they want is something deep and rich and old and tethered and challenging, and the strangeness of Christianity is actually an attractive thing. The ancientness of Christianity is actually an attractive thing. And I I think we we need to be clever about how we respond to this surprising rebirth. Because I I think the sort of things that I learnt at Bible college 20 years ago was kind of to get rid of anything challenging, to get rid of anything that was a barrier to faith, to get rid of anything that that made Christianity look ancient. And we were constantly trying to let's do cafe-style church, right? Let's let's have you know chairs in a circle rather than in rows, and let's let's get rid of sacraments, and we we won't do a weekly communion because that might not be good for mission. The people who show up in church now, they're like, Where's your communion? Why have you got kneelers and nobody's kneeling? And like, why, why, why are we not reading the Bible more?

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Now that's Glenn Scrivener, but it's not just him. Lots of people among my friends seem to be saying, uh, we've got to get back to back to liturgy, back to prayer book. And I'm thinking, I just can't see that as effectively connecting with the young adult. But what do you think, David?

SPEAKER_04 15:39

Oh, I think I have a very strong opinion, Dominic. I I think that's nonsense, actually. Uh I I think what we're doing, uh, the what Glenn did, and I respect Glenn, but that was a false dichotomy he's presenting there, where he's saying, ah, uh, people are coming, and in the past we did cafe church and we got rid of everything just to make it palatable, and that didn't really work. Now they're looking for things that are ancient. I agree with that. And I don't think we should change. Well, I think cafe church has always been a dud, by the way, but I don't think we should change and uh try and pander to our culture and be cool. We're not cool, all those type of things. But the thing they're looking for truly that's ancient is not that we're wearing dresses or lighting candles or reciting words, it is the living, breathing word of God that transforms souls. So the the battles that were fought here in Sydney to get rid of the trope of uh liturgical form, which by the way, is prevalent and present in every heretical denomination you can come up with. And not only that, if you look at the denominations and churches which see the least conversions and are responsible for the most people walking away, they are liturgy heavy to the max. Okay. So what are we actually saying? It's not liturgy people need nor want. It's the word. The mistake is to view, oh, what they what the ms what he is fighting against, I think, is the seeker service movement, which cuts out even the word because we don't want to confront people with that. And what we have fought for, I'll use Sydney Anglicanism, if I may, uh, so hard, was to try and strip away unhelpful barriers to the living, breathing word of God where people encounter the living, breathing, ruling, reigning king of kings. Uh, and and that's only because the liturgical framework is so unhelpful in uh building false assurance of salvation. So the I've certainly I'll just put it as as plainly as I can, not that I've been subtle so far, but I'll put it as plainly as I can. If we're just to talk pragmatics about conversions, the churches in England, the United Kingdom, America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand that see the most conversions have almost no liturgical framework whatsoever. It's fake news. And often, I'm not saying like this of Glenn, but unfortunately it's often driven by a confirmation bias that I like it. So I'm gonna make sure everyone else has to go through it because I like it. And so I'm gonna put on a collar and I'm gonna light a candle. Uh, but it's not shown by evidence whatsoever that it leads to people to Christ or to conversion.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

So, Orlando Sayer, what's your reaction to what Glenn said, David said? Quite different perspectives.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Yeah, they're all different, uh, but the question is worth asking. And we want to acknowledge there has been some change. And this goes back to what we were just hinting at earlier on the extent of the change. That's the first question I want to want to sort of consider just as we uh as we ponder those two approaches. Yes, there has been anecdotal, and I'm sure that in time there will be statistically backed evidence of

How Much Should Churches Actually Change

SPEAKER_01 18:51

a change of heart and looking for some of those things, looking for the looking for tangible forms of spirituality and and so on. But how big is that? And how how um how widespread that is that compared to the number of people who are totally outside church and have really not particularly considered church, considered their savior, the Lord Jesus, um uh at all. And so, who are you going to cater for? So you might want to shift the dial slightly uh because there are some, there are more who are looking for those church traditions, but you wouldn't want to shift it an awful lot because those people are still in the very small minority. So I just want to be very careful about the extent of that move, but also want to be cognizant of the starting point that you have. So there are different churches that have different degrees to which they are bound or look to be bound by their traditions. You might have an Anglican church, which is relatively high church, you might have a low church Anglican church, which still has some liturgy, you might have an FIEC church, which has almost no liturgy or forms of liturgy. It's just not um not um uh no no verbal liturgy in the same in the same way. So it's more a structural liturgy or whatever. And you might say, well, um uh each of those might be looking to just strengthen their hand a little bit. So our church, I I lead an FIEC church, and I guess a decade ago we'd have done almost no elements of liturgy at all. But I've noticed we we do say the Lord's Prayer a little bit more often, we do say the creed a bit more often than we we used to, and I think we are perhaps just gently, slowly, subtly responding um to a little bit of a change in what people are looking for. But that phrase that uh David Jensen just picked up uh there about the uh do you need to that phrase that David Jensen just picked up there about the seeker sensitive movement, seeker church. We want to acknowledge that if the seeker is no longer saddleback Sam, no longer into soft rock, and therefore we don't need to uh bind church up into forms which appeal to saddleback Sam, but it's now somebody who is small spiritual Steve or whoever it is looking for something different. We can still have an eye to the seeker, but we will be happy to move the needle slightly.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Now let's just turn to this uh table that um really is summarising, I think, what you're saying about us taking on conscious and unconscious uh perspectives to tradition. Do you just want to unpack this table for us?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, I I I think it's relatively straightforward to make the this distinction here that we're either positive or negative about tradition. We either celebrate what we've uh the heritage of previous generations or we don't. But

Conscious And Unconscious Tradition

SPEAKER_01 22:04

the other one is actually perhaps a more subtle.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

I mean, and on that one though, you're you're really saying uh someone like perhaps you and I are a little bit more skeptical about tradition because of our background in traditional Roman Catholicism than some of our other evangelical peers. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Aaron Powell That may be right. Um I'm not about sceptical, but ambivalent, can see the dangers, can see the positive. But but in general, I want to be positive about tradition. But I want to make sure that the tradition that we're being positive about is tradition. And that means being clear in my own head. What is biblically in mandated or inspired? And what is more just a biblically informed attempt at trying to capture something important.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Let's break those down in a moment. But tell me first about conscious and unconscious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah. So conscious and unconscious, I take the person who says, Do you know what we don't we don't have any tradition in our church? It's just you, me, and Jesus and the Bible, and that's it. And but even saying that, that person may not understand that that attitude, that approach, even having an English Bible, uh, he sits in a stream that he is unconscious of, but it's actually shaped him enormously in his approach to how he reads the Bible. And so I'd want to encourage that person to say, no, hang on, just just think about what you are saying, to think about ways in which you are shaped without even realizing it. Um in other words, work on your awareness. Um, consider what you what you have.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

And then having worked on my awareness, um, you've broken down traditions under the categories of biblically required tradition, biblically inspired tradition, and biblically informed tradition. Can you break those down for me?

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Yes, they're slippery terms. Um, and um you could debate endlessly where some particular practices or beliefs or tradition or traditions might fall. But I I want to say is what the further you get from biblical, biblically mandated traditions, the lighter that you want to hold them. That's the that's the general point. So you're you're if you're biblical, if you're building on the foundations of the Bible, then you then you know

Mandated Inspired And Informed Practices

SPEAKER_01 24:35

that you're on fairly sure ground. But if you're putting a uh a story on top of that and a story on top of that, and a story on top of that, then by the time you get here, you might still say, yeah, this is a good thing to be doing. Um, but I also want to be aware that it it rests on not quite so clear foundations. Make that concrete for me. Yeah. Um, so take take a take something like um uh what's a what's a tradition that we have? Uh we have uh uh a uh tradition we share bread and wine um when we meet together as Christians. Now that's an interesting one because it's very clear from the scriptures that uh that sharing bread and wine together, communion, the Lord's supper, whatever you want to call it, was an expectation of churches. You just read 1 Corinthians 11 and you see that very straightforwardly. Um, and so in that sense, it would fit very much on the bottom layer of biblically mandated uh or expected practice. But everything that we associate with that, um we want to be clear about most of those things but rest in a different category. So if you were to go to a church gathering and notice the way in which bread and wine were being shared, there's a somebody with vestments on, he's saying some words, there's a sense of awe, there's a sense of silence, our eyes are closed, there's a token elements being consumed, and so all those things are traditions, and most of them are um not particularly positive, I want to say.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

So that so I much prefer eating bread and drinking wine and remembering the death of the Lord Jesus in the context of the Sunday morning lunch on our church weekend away, yes, um, rather than if you like the symbolic meal um in the church service. Do you know? I I I love doing it in the context of a real meal with our church family.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yes, I think that I mean, people, historians will have their views about how things have developed. My my hunch is that the moment that the early Christians moved away from the actual meal towards elements, and depending on which historian you prefer, that may be because Christians started meeting it in the morning before work rather than uh when they might eat a main meal, or it might be because the gatherings became too big for them to be able to share a meal together. But the moment that the sacrament, the elements were detached from a real meal, uh a sacramental or tradition which is totally foreign to the tenor of the New Testament was introduced into Christian practices.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

I mean, what about a different one? Um, getting a cross on your forehead at Ash Wednesday, or even having an Ash Wednesday service or a Shrove Tuesday, or I mean, some of my evangelical friends are starting to do this.

unknown 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yes, I mean practices associated with the church calendar have always been appealing, and you can see why they would be appealing. Well, why not use the calendar as a means of catechizing and

Communion Meals And The Church Calendar

SPEAKER_01 28:06

uh um structuring our thinking and being learning aids and and so on? What why not do that? In one way it seems very neutral. The difficulty is that um the practice on its own is hard to leave there. Um it can very easily lead to somewhere where there's a sense of uh a reliance on this practice. So it's no longer just a teaching aid. I'm no longer simply re being reminded that I am a sinner. I am entering a world in which tangible effects of me, a sort of performative type of piety, is increasing. Um and suddenly I wake up five years later and realize actually where my heart is divorced from where the ashes of my forehead are.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

So I'm just trying to reflectively say what I think I'm hearing from you, and I'm just also trying to contrast it with um some of the lines I've heard from Sarah Irving Stonebreaker who I've got great respect for. Um uh I think she is wanting us to both celebrate and enjoy our Christian heritage and not be ahistorical um people. And uh I think what I'm hearing from you is well, yes, do that, but particularly we want to be critical about um thinking about what are things from the Bible, and then you drew those other two distinctions.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Um have I got that right? Yes, I the the tricky thing is that we want to be aw we I talked about awareness earlier on, but the the awareness thing goes further. I need to be aware of my motivations in promoting a push back to ancient church practices or whatever it is. So take somebody who is we talked about the church calendar a second ago, take somebody who's positive about the church calendar, wants to make sure that we're all preaching on the Trinity eight Sundays after Easter or whatever

Motives Proof Texting And Unintended Effects

SPEAKER_01 30:33

it is, or whatever it, whatever it is, um, actually using these feast days and uh the rhythms of these of the seasons and so on. Now, what that person is likely to say, well, look at look at uh Leviticus 23 or whatever it is, it these shall be a statute to you forever, and and so on. They'll be looking at to proof text their practices, and somebody else might be not so into the church calendar and they might say, Well, um uh was it Colossians 2 16?

SPEAKER_03 31:05

I would I would say in our context that the critical issues that I need to make sure I hit each year are sexuality and materialism. Do you know um I I'm sure we we we do teach on the Trinity, but we don't teach on it annually like that. Whereas pretty much if you looked at our practice in the inner city and all that kind of thing, in materialistic inner West, we would be doing we'd be hitting sexuality and materialism pretty frequently.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Yeah, no, I see, I see that. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that it is very easy to baptize our instincts by proof texting them into others. So you could be and you can take Colossians 2.16, these are a shadow of the things to come, you could you know, because of your anti-tradition or those kind of things, or you could look the other way. But actually, what's really going on in our hearts, we're it may be that we're just nostalgic uh for the things that shaped us when we were younger. So we want to be aware of our motivations, but also aware of unintended effects of what we're doing by reintroducing these kind of practices. And unintended effects are things we have to think about as pastors all the time. You think about Mother's Day, and we celebrate Mother's Day because we want to honor motherhood, but then somebody comes along and says, Well, I want to have children, but I can't, and I don't want to go to church that day because I this is something being talked about, and I feel depressed and discouraged, and it's divisive. And so we have to we've done something which has had an unintended effect, and that that kind of thing can happen with these kinds of practices very easily. So you know, somebody somebody can um somebody can be blessed by liturgy and have their thinking sharpened and their their mind catechised by repeated liturgy week after week, but somebody else can be vaccinated against truth because of exposure to that same liturgy repeatedly in their younger years, and they almost got a shield against biblical truth now for in in the future. And similarly with practices, they can they like you were talking about Ashing, on you you you can become a hypocrite because actually your heart is not where your practice is, and so but somebody else might be blessed by it. So those kind of that kind of awareness of the effects you're having that may not have been what you intended or hoped.

SPEAKER_03 33:32

So, this journey of thinking that you've been on on your sabbatical, what are you going to do differently?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

I think for me, I want to practice what I preach in a sense. I want to become more um conscious of who I am, what's shaped me, who we are as a church, and what's shaped us, and celebrate that tradition, but also realize that it is a tradition and therefore become a bit more

What Orlando Will Do Differently

SPEAKER_01 34:02

discerning about uh the weight that we apply to certain things that we do. I think that's the biggest thing for me and for us as a church to take away. But I also want to encourage others to do similarly. Um, I I I do think as we were talking, that just having had that background that I've had, I've been a Roman Catholic, I've been high church Anglican, I've been low church Anglican, I've been an independent Baptist, I've been F I E C, I've been around the blocks.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Lonny you don't have songs, I've been everywhere, man. Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Been around the blocks. And I think that stewarding that background means that it may be helpful for me to be able to spot things and you similarly think, to spot things that others might not spot um because they're not sensitized to them quite so much.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

Orlando, thanks very much. It's been super stimulating. Orlando Sayer has been our guest. He's the senior minister of Christchurch Southampton in the UK and uh leads the uh 938 ministry aimed at raising up more gospel workers across the United Kingdom, across England and Wales. My name's Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the Pastor's Heart. We'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.