Darrell Bock on Engaging Aussie Culture (Pop Up Special)

In this special ‘pop up’ episode of The Pastor’s Heart we talk with New Testament Professor Darrell Bock about how best might Christians might engage culturally to reach Australians for Jesus. 

Plus his love of Sydney,  Sydney Swans Australian football team and why he would move here if he didn’t have grandchildren. Bock is known for getting up at 2am in Dallas to watch the Swans play live on TV.  He will see three Swans games during his current visit to Australia. 

Darrell Bock is executive director of Cultural Engagement at The Hendricks Center and Senior Research Professor of New Testament studies at Dallas Theological Seminary.

Transcript

Pop-Up Special And Guest Welcome

SPEAKER_00 0:08

It is the Pastor's Heart. It's Dominic Steele, and a little special today, a little pop-up special from us. Daryl Bok, Professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological College, is with us. And uh we're going to talk to him in the main episode about uh the New Testament, Luke's gospel, the historical Jesus. But um, first of all, Australian culture and reaching Australian culture. And Daryl, you know more about Australian culture than I expected a Dallas Theological College professor to know because you're wearing a Sydney Swans cap.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

That's right. Well, I've been coming to Australia since 2012, every other year for anywhere from a month to six weeks, um, ministering uh in the country, and we've fallen in love with Australia. We enjoy our time here. Uh, Sydney is one of my favorite places in the world. I tell people if I didn't

Aussie Sport As A Cultural Window

SPEAKER_01 0:55

have grandkids, I'd move here. And so uh so and I became a Sydney Swans fan, but I've also been ministering to churches, trying to help churches think through what does it mean to minister in a context in which the church has gone from being in the center of the culture to being on the edges of the culture. In fact, the way I illustrate is with a sports metaphor. Yeah, tell us about this. You've got an Australian or a Commonwealth sports metaphor. Yeah, well, the Commonwealth Sports metaphor is is um that um I I go through cricket, rugby, uh netball, darts, and Aussie Rules football and talk about an American observation on each one of those. I'll just do one. Uh test cricket. Well, no, I'll do rugby. I'll do rugby. Rugby's a good one. So the way we learned my first exposure to rugby was when it was being compared to American football in the UK, because in Britain they only showed one American football game a year that was on New Year's every year, uh, a Rose Bowl game, a college um tournament game. And uh they explained it through rugby and they complained that the score in American football is called a touchdown, but they don't actually touch the ball down. And then we've watched enough rugby that we have a question about the sport. And the question we have about the sport is why is it called a try when it's a success? So I have not been able to get an answer to that question. Okay, we continue to ask it. People look at me, they look at me with this curious look and then they go, Yeah, my wife came up with that, by the way. Our initial exposure to rugby was we had flown in an all-night uh direct flight from Dallas to Sydney. We were staying in a staying in a hotel, went to a pub for to get dinner because we didn't want to eat before we went to bed. And it happened to be Monday night, and Monday night rugby was on, and and it and the screen was literally right over my shoulder right now. And we were watching the game and we're trying to figure out what we're gonna order, and all of a sudden my wife pipes up and says, That game is violent. So that that's uh that was our initial our initial baptism into Australian culture, sports and the sports world. And and then I decided that um Aussie rules football was a safer game. Right. Now, you're a serious one. I mean, you're gonna get up at two o'clock in the morning to watch the teams. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'm uh on my all my Australian contacts, we are constantly emailing back and forth about how the season's going. And you've watching three Australian three swans games. I will be see three swans games live this trip, which will be the first time I've done that. I've always tried to catch at least one, but this time it worked out that I could I've figured out how to maneuver myself through Sydney on my own, and so that helps. Yeah. So and I figured out how to order tickets on my own, so that helps, and so I'm making three games this trip.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Now I know you because of Luke's gospel, um, but you've done a lot of work on cultural engagement. How do we best contextualize the gospel for Australian society in 2026?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

I tell people that usually when people go to share Christ, they have an agenda about what they want to share with the person, but they're skipping a step. The step that they're skipping is getting a GPS spiritual reading on the person they're talking to and where they're coming from. And I tell people do a lot of listening, put your doctrinal meter on mute, ask them why they believe what they believe.

Spiritual GPS And Listening First

SPEAKER_01 4:26

You're not interested in where they're right or wrong, you're only interested in where they're coming from and why. You want a sense about who it is that you're talking to as you go to share the gospel. And I tell people, a lot of people are intimidated to share Christ because they don't know if they're capable of answering, you know, where the person's coming from or what their objections might be or whatever. And I say, don't worry about that. Let them talk about where they are spiritually. Get a spiritual GPS reading on them. And if you have the ability to ask questions, you're in the position of sharing Christ because it will become a point where it'll be your turn. And if you set that as this way in, then hopefully you will get the same treatment that you've given them and you've opened up an opportunity for a conversation for the gospel. You're asking, is there a God? I'm asking four questions actually that I say have to be aligned in order for the gospel even to make sense. The first question is, is there is there one God? Okay, I used to ask, is there a God? And then I went to India and there were gods all over the place. I went, that's the wrong question. The question is, is there one God? Is there one God to whom we are accountable? And do you put a question to them? Or no, the I'm thinking about that. When I when I I say that when you do evangelism to religious nuns, you're in the business of creating categories they don't have. So you need to understand what those categories need to be. The obviously the first category is there's a God, and there's a God who's a creator, there's a God to whom we are accountable because we're a creature, we're made in the image of God, we're made to image God. That's the Genesis one piece where the gospel starts for me. Then uh the second question is when you say the Bible says or God says, what is it that a religious nun has heard? I have a ditty that goes with that, N-O-T-H-I-N-G, that's what that means to me. Nothing, absolutely nothing. That's actually important because we tend to teach people to engage with people by saying the Bible says or God says. And so, and we say, and we teach them it's true because it's in the Bible. Okay. And that's how we take communicate. All right, yeah. Okay. And my flip is that actually doesn't work with a religious nun because they don't have the category and it doesn't oper the Bible doesn't operate as a warrant for them for anything. So it's a it's a blank for them. So that doesn't work. And then I say it also denies what the Bible is. The Bible is a revelation, which means the right Bible is a disclosure. Something's not true because it's in the Bible. It's in the Bible because it's already true. God says it because it's already true. So we need to teach people in the church how to stand up for the things that the Bible talks about on their own terms and make the case that way rather than appealing to the Bible for its truthfulness, because that doesn't mean anything to the person we're talking to. So that's the second thing part of the piece. The third part is, the third part is.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

I mean, I'm I'm talking to some, I mean, it's a longer conversation. We got 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Well, well, well, let me let's you you're the stuff that you do begins with Acts 17. Okay. Think about here here is Paul and engaging someone. He doesn't, those people don't know Genesis from Malachi. They don't know a thing about the Old Testament. All right. So they they don't know a thing about the Bible. So what is Paul doing? He is sharing biblical concepts without citing texts. Yeah. Okay. So he's giving them ideas in which he says, this is the way to live. This is the, this is, this is a healthy way to do it. This is why God has structured the world the way that he has. He's attacking the topic of life through asking questions and presenting it in that kind of a way. That's what we need to be able to do. Then the second step is if someone asks, well, where did you get this from? Then you turn around and you say, Well, this is what this is what we regard as our scripture, this is what our scriptures tell us about the way to live. And you you can eventually get to scripture, but you don't start off there. Yeah. Okay. Third question is um when you say Jesus is a God man, how many uh I'm trying to illustrate how unique a category the person of Jesus is because he's pretty central to the Christian faith. Sharing him is pretty central to the story. Okay. And you say Jesus is the God man, that's a category a religious nun doesn't have. And so, so you go, so how many people, so you and I'll show you how unique this is, so that you get the point of you're in a category people don't have. How many people that have walked the earth could claim to be the creator God incarnate? There's only one. Only one. We're not talking about being divine in some loose sense. We're talking about, no, being part of the creation uh and and expressing and expressing your presence in in in incarnate form. That's a unique category. How unique? I asked Google how many human beings have walked the face of the earth in the history of humanity. They gave me a number, 119 billion. I have no idea where that number came from. I uh they didn't give me footnotes and add something I could add up to check it. But let's just say they're close. Okay, give or take. 119 billion. How many people could create, could claim, credibly claim to be the creator God incarnate? The answer is only one. That's a very unique category. It's at the center of our story. And the gospel's actually in the business of showing people from the earth up who Jesus is. It's trying to help us get, it's trying to help people who don't understand who Jesus is, who Jesus is in his fullness. Three of our gospels tell the story from the earth up. One of them tells it from heaven down. It's the difference between Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. John tells it from heaven down. Matthew, Mark, and Luke tell from the earth up. You watch it dawn on people who Jesus is. So we have to learn how to tell the story in that way. We tend to assume the result. So how do I help the person who has to have it? Because no one comes to Jesus this way. They're given the swat of life at the beginning. They go, weh, weh, weh, Jesus, second person of the ontological Trinity. No one comes to Jesus like that. Everyone who comes to Jesus has to have someone explain to them the uniqueness of Jesus. And whether it comes through the church or through a friend or whatever it is, someone's got to take that person from the earth up when it comes to Jesus. We have to develop that skill in people. I think we've lost it because we don't know how to tell the story of the gospels the way the gospels tell the story. So that's important. The last one is the last question or observation is do you realize that you're accountable to this living God, whether you recognize it or not? That puts the hook into the question and why it's important to talk about. Because if I'm accountable to a living God who's expressed himself about what he's done for humanity, and I am, and I am responsible for the choice that I make, it's not a take it or leave it conversation. It's a major conversation.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

So at that point, you're gonna bring in atone judgment and atonement.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

I'm gonna bring in sin, judgment and atonement, but I'm gonna talk. Sometimes I'm I tell people, sometimes we have to translate our theological categories. Okay. Because when I say, if I come out right out of the gate and say, you're a sinner, they don't hear you're a sinner. They hear, you're a sinner. Okay. And I say Star Wars and Star Trek theology kicks in and phaser shields go up. So how do I work around that? And what I say, there are two ways to work around it. First is to talk about the brokenness of the world.

Jesus As A Category People Lack

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Okay. I I say I I could ask it in a general way. Is the is the world dysfunctional? Okay. I won't get much debate on that question, I don't think. Okay. I can personalize it. Um is your life dysfunctional? Sometimes I'll get a confession. I say I get a confession, and everyone becomes a Catholic. Okay. Now we're in confessional. We're gonna talk about just then I follow that up and say, Do you sometimes contribute to that dysfunction? I might get a second yes. Moment I do that, then I say, you know what the Bible calls that? And they'll say, What? Bible calls that sin. And they've already, they've already taken the step into the conversation. So what I'm doing is I'm translating the concept, I'm doing Acts 17. I'm translating the concepts of the Bible in a way that the person that I'm speaking to can process it, have a chance of processing it, and putting myself on a path where I can actually talk about the categories the Bible gives us.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

So as you talk to pastors, are you encouraging them to how does your thinking there work into whether or not people are running evangelistic courses and things like that? Because that's a big thing here.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, well, I think on the one hand, having evangelistic courses that help people think through what the gospel is. The gospel to me is really simple. Um, it has two parts. There's a challenge part, dealing with sin, and then there's an invitation part into the new life. Okay. And I have to deal with the challenge part in order to get to the new life. But the reality is I can't challenge someone. They aren't likely to hear my challenge unless they know I care about them. I am very big on the relational dimensions of sharing the gospel, that it's not just an intellectual exercise, that you have to touch the heart as well as the mind. And so, so I'm gonna, if I'm gonna challenge someone about sin and charge them with being a sinner, okay, which I have every right to do according to the Bible, if I want that to have a chance of being heard, I've got to establish enough credibility with them. They need to know that I care in order to accept the challenge that I'm gonna offer them. That that taps into the way I live and the way the church lives. And so I tell pastors when the Bible says that we are light, I tell people that's about showing more than it is saying. Okay. Light shows. So I better be consistent in what I'm talking about as being a believer and a Christian in the way I engage and the way we as a community engage with the world. I better be consistent, or else I'm gonna be shut down before I even try and talk to them because they're gonna see me as being a hypocrite or not being genuine or however you want to put it. So, so this relational dimension is key. I we actually talk about relational evangelism at the center that I'm at because we think that's the most important part of it. So it's not only what I believe, it's how I present it. 1 Peter 3 says, I'm supposed to be prepared to give a defense for the hope that is in me. The word defense is where we get the word apologetics from. It's the Greek word apologia. But that's not the most important part of the passage. The most important part of the passage comes later

Translating Sin Without Triggering Shields

SPEAKER_01 15:24

when it says for the hope that is within us. And I tell people Peter boils down our faith in one word. It's the word hope. And that's the message we're supposed to have as we deliver our apologetics. And then I ask myself this question when I think about how the church engages the world, how often does the word hope leap to mind in how we're addressing the world? I go, it usually doesn't. In fact, if I were to ask most Christians how many uh to find their faith in one word, I don't even think hope would make the top five. Grace, love, forgiveness, Christ, the cross, probably coming in ahead. But Peter is saying our message is about hope. It's about a new life, it's about a different way of living, a way of living that's in touch with the way we were created. That's the way I say it. And then, and then goes on to say this we do it, we give, we uh give this defense for the hope that is in us with meekness and respect. So there's not only what we believe, it's how we deliver it. And tone matters one heaven of a lot. And unfortunately, sometimes our tone is off as well in the midst of the challenge. And so as a result, people are put off rather than invited in, because in the end, I have to get to the invitation. I don't get to the invitation, I don't get to the gospel if I don't get to the invitation. If I only talk about forgiveness of sins, if that's all I talk about, then it's like uh use this picture of Romans 6 when we're gonna baptize, we're gonna we're gonna immerse for this illustration. And the picture is I'm dead to sin, that's the cross. Well, I go into the water and I never come up. What happens if I go in the water and never come up? I drown. Okay. But that's not Romans 6. Romans 6 is I'm dead to sin on the one hand, but what's the other half? I'm raised alive to God. That's the invitation part. That's the new life. So I don't get to the gospel unless I get to the invitation. I have to always make sure in everything that I share about the cross that I never forget there's a resurrection and a new life on the other end. And so I think the church is so focused on trying to convict the person of sin that they never get to the invitation that is the solution for life after sin has been forgiven.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

If you were writing an event, I mean, partly I'm gonna ask the if you were writing an evangelistic course, what would you put as your syllabus? But I'm also wanting you to engage with the various courses that you see around the world.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah, I uh I don't engage directly with the courses that because I don't work with them. I mean, but I've just I've just contributed to a course. The um the how can I say this? The consortium of Christian schools has developed a course on evangelism in the United States that is being circulated through the Christian colleges.

Hopeful Tone And The Invitation

SPEAKER_01 18:20

And I'm one of the contributors to that. And what we're called? Yeah, it's a course on evangelism.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

It's called evangelists. It's not a um, yeah, it's not an evangelistic course. It's a course about how to do evangelical.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

It's a course on evangelism. And so I make the point that we need to present the gospel starting off in Genesis 1, that people got to understand who they are and who they're created to be in order for the gospel to make sense. I'm created in the image of God to image God, which means I have to have a relationship with God in order to be able to image him. And so I start there and then I say, sin breaks that up, okay, and the cross deals with the breakup that sin causes. But in the end, I'm brought back to the way I was designed to live. I'm brought into a relationship with God so I can reflect who God is in his character. That's what I'm called. And the and the Great Commandment tells me this, okay. Great commandment tells me to love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love my neighbor as myself. And and and that extends even to the enemy. And I'm reminded about the reason God gave Christ. I say, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever should believe with him and not perish, but have eternal life. Say I simplify that. God so loved the world that he gave. Period. That's supposed to be our heart because that reflects the character of God.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Now, um I mean, as you say that, your your music to my ears, because I wrote the Introducing Groups, which starts in Genesis 1. Right. I've been frustrated as I've looked around at other courses that haven't started with creation.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Correct. Correct. Which is a shame because all the theology proper, and even the Christology, starts with the idea of Jesus the firstborn of creation, and Jesus is also the Savior at the same time. So whenever we think of God, we think of him as the creator, which makes us accountable to him and connected to him, and he is the redeemer to fix what's flawed in the creation. That's the way all theology is structured in the Bible. I like to say, I think the gospel is simple in the end. We've made it complicated, but in the end, it's very, very simple. I'm created as a creature to the creator God for a relationship with that God. If I if you ask people who aren't a part of the church why they exist, they will not be able to answer the question. They will not and you'll hear it in their language. I'm trying to find myself or my life is broken. I just want to be happy. I just want, you know, that they come up with answers that really aren't an answer for why they're here. Christianity is very clear about who we are as human beings and why we're here, and the gospel rotates around that center.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

So I look at some of the other courses and I just think I can't see the logic that will work for connecting with the nun that you're describing.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

And what I'm saying to what I'm saying, the point of connection is if I can explain to someone why they're here and what their life is supposed to be about, I've helped them. Right. Then you go to sin. You eventually will, you eventually have to get to sin because you have to get to why this relationship is broken. Or you can get it a different way, but you're talking about sin, and that is to talk about the sin, which is I think I'm a great independent. I think I have the right to live my life in whatever way I want.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah, I mean you looked at the introducing God syllabus a moment ago and saw the word autonomy. You had a different word. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah, I'd say the great independent. The great sin of the sin of Genesis 3 is the idea that I can be a God. The idea that I have the right to live my life totally independently of anybody else or any other being. Okay. And that sin involves not just how I'm thinking about relating to God, but also how I'm relating to others. And then I tell people, it's like driving in India. Okay, everyone drives, does what is right in their own eyes, okay? And it's chaos. Yep. That's what our world is. That's my analogy.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

So how would you like the church to reform its evangelism practice in a 60-second nutshell?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Talk about who we are designed to be, what life is supposed to be about, keep the focus there, and then help people see that there is a vacuum that people have if they aren't connected to the living God.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Darrell Bok, thanks very much for coming in. Darrell Bok's been our guest. He's the research professor at Dallas Theological Seminary. My name is Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the Pastor's Heart, and we will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.