The Creators of The New Era with James Mottram

🦖 Got a minute? Help shape the future of the podcast by filling in this quick form: https://forms.gle/wsz1wNygN4uhe39y5

Happy Rebirth Release Day!

I’m very excited to bring you my interview author of 3 behind the scenes ‘Jurassic’ books - James Mottram. 

We recorded this before I’d seen the film but after he’d seen it for the first time so this is spoiler free. 

We don’t just talk about Rebirth we also dig into how he came to create those books and we talk about our overall feeling for the series in the wake of a new film. 

We will be back for a spoiler discussion later this month!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

I always think of the um line from Jurassic Park 3 with Yudesky, and he says, What there's two islands full of dinosaurs, and now we've got to sort of edit that into three islands full of dinosaurs. Hello and welcome back to Road to Rebirth. I'm O Squire. Today I'm looking at the creators of this new Jurassic adventure, screenwriter David Kell and director Garrett Edwards. To help me as a film critic, journalist, and author who has been definitely immersed in the Jurassic franchise for a few years now. Please welcome to the podcast James Motram. Hi James, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 0:38

I'm very well, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah, I'm good, thanks. So people listening to this podcast will definitely know you from your now three Jurassic books, looking at the two trilogies and also the script book. I was wondering how it was for you diving so deep into the world of Jurassic. Have you managed to come out yet?

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Well, in a way I have because God, I'm having to even think when the last of those was finished. Feels like maybe 2022, maybe 23. Because I I've done a couple of books since then. One on Gareth's last film, Gareth Ebbers' last film, The Creator. I did a book on the Godzilla, the latest Godzilla Kong film. So yeah, I have had a little time away from Jurassic. So forgive me if I'm a little hazy on certain names. Uh that's just my terrible memory, more than anything. But yeah, the the Jurassic sort of project was really a pandemic thing because I'd I'd worked for the publisher on some other books, and then the pandemic hit, and I remember saying to the I just finished doing a book on Tenet, the Christopher Nolan film, and I just remember saying, look, if you've got any other ideas, you know, now is the time to get me because the cinemas are shut and uh I don't have a lot of work on. And he suggested the first Jurassic book idea, which was the ultimate visual history for Jurassic Park, so covering the first three Jurassic movies, and then it was kind of quickly decided that I would I think if I remember rightly, the initial idea was to have five films as it was at that point in in in one volume, I think, and then it became quite clear, I think it was even Colin Trevaro's idea that was sort of fed back to the publishers to have the Jurassic Park and Jurassic World as two separate books, which makes complete sense, of course. And then the script book came afterwards, which was actually my favourite of the three, perhaps because it was slightly slightly less traumatic to put together because there was probably less detail needed to complete it. But I also I always kind of point this out to people because I was like really happy to to get hold of Maria Scotch Marmo, the the woman who of course wrote a draft of the first Jurassic and hasn't really spoken about it a great deal beyond that incredible making of book that was produced at the time of the first movie. And I kind of sort of tracked her down. It took quite a while to get her to sort of talk, and I think we sort of did it via email in the end, but she gave me some great answers. And you know, I wouldn't I hate using the word scoop in in sort of journalism, but I kind of felt like that was a pretty cool thing to have in that book because she just hasn't talked about her experiences and and did to me. And so yeah, that was that was kind of one of my favourite experiences um writing this book.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Amazing. The interviews that you conducted did you get to speak to all of the main cast?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

And I think I did. I'm trying to think if there were anyone I there were a couple of people that didn't want to do it, probably shouldn't shouldn't name them, but let's see. I mean Sam Neil, Laura Dern and Jeff. I did all of them while they were kind of preparing for Dominion. So they were all in England, they were all stashed in this hotel where they were all kind of like shielding effectively. It was kind of useful in a strange way, the pandemic, because at least you know where they are. They were trapped, yeah. And so I got all of them, I think, in relatively short uh succession. Bryce again was uh Bryce Dallas How was done around that time. Chris Pratt took a lot longer, but I did get him in the end. And then then it was really a case of sort of picking up just the sort of supporting actors where you could. I mean, Justice Smith, I remember again took a while, but once I got him, he was great.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

I was wondering, um, so you said about Colin and being like involved in that maybe maybe that decision to split it into two books. He seems like when he was first announced as the director of the dra of Jurassic World, he he um you know spoke very much as from a fan perspective. Did did you get that from him when when you spoke to him that he was a fan of the?

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Yeah, I guess. Um I suppose by the time I got to him, I had actually interviewed him and Chris Pratt for Jurassic World, just for a newspaper I was working for at the time. So I guess by the time we came back, and I think we did a couple of chats about Dominion, well, Dominion and Jurassic World. And he was very, very available. That much I can I can remember. Like he was very happy to talk. Sometimes you get directors, you know, obviously they're in the midst of cutting the film, yeah, they're embedded in the film. It's probably hard for them to even articulate what they're doing because they are in the middle of doing it. You know, he knew exactly what he was doing, and yeah, I think he understands, I think he is a fan, he understands what the fans want. Yeah. I mean, I I was thinking, you know, back on when I saw Jurassic World, so this was some time before, well, whatever it was, five years before this the book first book project came around. Yeah, yeah. I just remember being so elated by that film because it's obviously it's what all the fans wanted, i.e., the theme park finally open and functioning, and that's why that film works so well. It kind of fulfilled all those dreams that you had ever since you saw the first movie where the theme park doesn't get to open. So I think he understands what the fans want innately, and then you look at the sort of choice of dinosaurs along the way. I mean, bringing the spitters back for the for Dominion, for example. I mean, you can argue is that fan service, perhaps a little bit, a bit like bringing back the legacy characters, yeah. But let's face it, most franchises have done that, Star Wars did that, yeah. And you know, it was good to see Neil, um Dern and Goldblum back kind of riffing on their old personas on some level. So yeah, I think he he is approaching it as a fan for sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

And also I'm I just need to give a little shout out to Derek Davis as well, who I think helped you with the the the script book. In how how how how did that come?

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Well, that's an interesting um an interesting journey because Derek reviewed the first book for a website, a website I use quite a lot, uh that he works for, because they had all the scripts, like the kind of original uh drafts of the script were uploaded um into that website. And then when the second book came out, someone at the publishers said to Derek, would he host a sort of QA with me and one of the concept artists, uh Glenn Macintosh? And that was great. And that's kind of when I got to know Derek and we started talking after that. I mean, he is a fountain of knowledge. Um I mean he he blasts my Jurassic knowledge out of the park, out of the Jurassic Park. Yeah, but um, and you know, he's got lots of sort of concept art and he he could have written that book, frankly, the the script book quite easily. I think I think I just sort of went to the publisher and said, Well, look, can we just use him to to to you know to sort of run the run the draft by and you know make suggestions and things and and yeah, he was brilliant for that. So yeah, absolutely, shout out to him.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah, yeah, great. Um, so I'm right in saying that you've already seen Rebound. Today, in fact, yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Um I also went on um a post-production visit to Abbey Road studios where they were scoring the film at the time. So outside of the trailer, that was the first time I saw any footage. I mean, it's just being played up on screens while the the sort of this I think it was a 105-piece orchestra were being you know conducted by Alexander Despart. So that was that was pretty thrilling as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

So I haven't seen the film, so the discussion will be completely spoiler-free.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

So you probably know quite a lot though that's in the public domain already, because I think they've been fairly free with details, they haven't shrouded it in complete mystery.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

No, I think it's better, although I do think it's a lot better than Fallen Kingdom and Dominion's marketing campaign.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

I generally try not to pay too much attention to trailers. I had seen the trailer once or twice, and like I said, I saw bits and pieces very randomly in uh at Abbey Road. So yeah, there was no way of connecting the dots at that point as to where things ended up. Yeah. It was they were all action sequences, but um you couldn't really tell how the film was structured as such. Uh, and even what they, you know, the people I've interviewed, I've spoken to Gareth on that um post-production visit, and David Kep I've also spoken to. While they sort of told me the basic premise as to what the reason they go to this island, yeah, which I think is probably pretty much in the public domain now. Yeah. Beyond that, yes, the the structure of it, let's say, yeah, w wasn't particularly clear.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Which it's which is nice for me as a fan. It's nice to think of going in and watching it, you know, not blind, but just just to take in the story.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Okay, here's the thing I want to ask you, because I was thinking about this today. I I guess now if it's if we consider all seven films and you added it up, there's got to be five pretty much set on an island. I mean, half a Fallen Kingdom, most of the Lost World, and then the first, second, well, the first, third, and fourth, and now this one. So it's an island setting again, of course, as probably everyone knows by now. But I I I must admit, when I heard that, I was kind of like, really? Another island? You know, especially as Colin had done the work by getting the dinosaurs into the world. So I was a little, I'll be honest, I was a little skeptical at first, thinking, well, are we just going to be retreading you know another island story? And yet you have to admit that the best Jurassics have all been on the island on an island.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah, I think that's I think that and reading bits in your book and conversations with um Steven Spielberg, he was very reluctant to do any of the dinosaurs getting off the island when he was doing Jurassic Park, even the bits that are in Michael Crichton's novel about the raptors getting out and in Jurassic Park and The Lost World, the novels by Michael Crichton, they're clearly on the mainland of Costa Rica. It's almost like you can imagine living your life as we are now, and somewhere out there there could be this forgotten land where dinosaurs. I think there's that's that's the magic I think that Spielberg's always trying to get to, is that you could accidentally be one of those people that stumbles across this island.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah, and there's a certain contained terror being stuck on an island in the middle of you know the Pacific or whatever or the Atlantic, and and uh you there's no real escape. I mean, there would be if a helicopter comes along or something, but you know what I mean. It you can't easily hide and it it does work for a setting, but yeah, obviously they couldn't redo the theme park idea again. That clearly they wouldn't do that. It's been done twice in different different ways, let's say. But yeah, it does work as a setting. Yeah, so yeah, I'm I'm I'm I was skeptical, but I'm sort of very pleased the way it kind of worked out.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

I'm I'm skeptical of the fact that it's a new island. That's maybe the one bit that I'm like, I can't quite get my because we've already got Isla Sauna and Isla Nublars being destroyed, and now we're on a now we're on a new island, supposedly.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Yeah, I I was a little bit like, well, hang on, why didn't they just go back to Isla Sauna? Where because that's meant to be the sort of breeding ground. Yeah, yeah. Again, I'm not sure what you know about what's on the island specifically.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

So we mean only that there's some yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Do you I mean do you know anything that's on the island particularly?

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Only the the shot from the trailer of the lab. I'm imagining that's at some point of the maybe an inciting incident of the film.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Yeah, there's there's there's obviously some sort of research facility, let's say, on the island. There isn't really much more to know than that, but apart from the fact they've been doing some some things. Let's say some stuff. We'll say that. We'll be vague. Yeah, I I I kind of did think, well, how many islands are there shoved out there?

SPEAKER_00 12:21

I always think of the um line from Jurassic Park 3 with Udesky, and he says, Well, there's two islands full of dinosaurs. Now we've got to sort of edit that into three islands full of dinosaurs.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

If only he'd known most things.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah, yeah. So why do you think David Kepp has now cut because he's done some script work for Jurassic Park 3 and Dominion, is that is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Yeah, well I actually asked him this when I interviewed him. I said, would it be fair to say that even if you're not credited, you know, officially credited, you've been involved with all of them on some level. Like let's say a draft of the script has been passed to him just for him to offer notes on. Uh and he said yes, basically. So in one capacity or another, he's looked at one of the, you know, a draft of all of the films. And that doesn't mean his notes to take her on board, but you know, he he's as you know, Spielberg's the godfather, then he's kind of a Jurassic, he's like the great uncle, really. I mean, he's yeah, he's uh you know, alongside say Frank Marshall or and obviously Kathleen Kennedy. You know, he's just been involved from the beginning. So why wouldn't you get his opinion if he's willing to give it? Which of course, you know, he's an extremely warm and generous individual, and and yeah, and clearly is is happy to offer his experience. But yeah, this is the first time he's officially been back, I guess, since The Lost World, in terms of you know, in terms of being the sole writer.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, I wonder what really drew him back to back back back to it.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Well, I kind of think he he took a call from Spielberg. Spielberg basically just said, Do you want to bats, you know, do you do you fancy batting some ideas around? Do you want to get involved? So they spent a few months literally just batting ideas back and forth. And and then I at what point I'm not sure they had the conversation about Ket actually being the screenwriter, but I guess that was probably fairly early on. I think the thing is, I remember him saying he was that part of the process where you you just he and Stephen are batting ideas back was the the the loveliest part of the process because you know you're starting with a blank page, yeah, the sky's the limit, your imagination is the limit. I know he said, and I'm not really sure how this plays out in the final film, and if uh you you can tell me when you see it in case there's something I missed when I watched it, but the Spielberg's sort of uh early idea was that the a Mosasaur would be kind of terrifying kind of fishing grounds and and and sort of like swallowing up you know the the kind of the the fish that are there. I don't think that's really in the final film, but that was a sort of it was quite an early idea to have that creature in in in the story, which it very much is. Um how quickly they developed the other ideas, I'm not sure, but it was obviously over a few months. And I kind of think when you've got Spielberg coming to you and saying, Do you want to, you know, do you want to just sit and you know brainstorm? Yeah, you would really, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah. I was just so amazed that Rebirth came around so quickly after Dominion.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Yeah, I I mean I was stunned, really. I mean, not not stunned because Dominion crept over a billion dollars, which is it was crazy the way I don't know if you paid attention to the box office of that film, but it it was like on I don't know, about 999,000, and they they kept it in the cinemas long enough so it could just make it over a a billion, which it did, which is incredible, really. And which means all three of the the Colin produced written films made it, you know, in that in that incredible ballpark figure. So I guess yeah, they probably thought, well, look, the fan the fandom is as strong as ever, which it is. I mean, there's that's one thing I truly realised writing the books. I don't think I, you know, I I was like, you know, I enjoyed the films, but I wasn't as plugged into the fan community as I imagine you are. But now I I am fully aware of how strong that community is. It's you know, it's it's along it's it's it's alongside Star Wars in terms of the kind of mania for it and the love of it. And the and the numbers prove it. Yeah, definitely. So I'm not surprised they bankrolled another one quickly. I'm surprised everyone kind of jumped on board and said, well, let's you know, that that Spielberg and David Kepp just said, right, let's get it out there. And and then the fact that it's come round so quickly, because I think Gareth wasn't really announced until February last year. Yeah, they didn't finish shooting, I think, until September. Um, I know that the score that the uh Alexander the composer didn't see the score, she didn't see a rough cut until December. You know, I mean that's that's crazy speeds to to put a movie at that scale together with that many visual effects as well. Yeah. Uh amazing that they've done it. Yeah, it that that is in itself remarkable. But sometimes, you know, Gareth did say sometimes that is as hard as that is on the body and the mind, you don't you don't second guess yourself, you know, you just go on your instincts. Exactly. Yeah, you know, when you've got a long time to think about films like that, it's uh Yeah, I don't know. Maybe maybe she started second guessing herself and things don't quite work out. But yeah, he really was clearly running on instinct.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

I think sometimes that's how the best films are sort of made, really. You know, that's in the 70s. That's how big all you know the blockbuster started, really, was that sort of run and gun mentality, you know, just having these big crazy ideas and just literally just going out and filming them. So I'm I'm glad that it's kind of it's had a limit, a time limit set on it, and just like this film is coming out on this date, it's not moving, this film has to be done, and you know, you can either sink and swim. But I think the amount of people that the the the the star power of the cast, but also the people behind the camera is just so big that you know it's just so pedigree is so good, I think. I don't think I've spoken to anybody where they're like, Oh, I'm a little bit worried about the time. Everybody's got a lot of faith in people involved.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Well, I think you know, as we've obviously been saying, you've already got someone who's deeply embedded in the franchise, i.e. David Kepp. Obviously, you've got Spielberg sort of pumping in ideas as well. And then they found the perfect director. There is absolutely no doubt they chose the best director right now to who hasn't directed a Jurassic before to do it. And I mean, you know, Gareth, he basically he he'd already done a kind of Jurassic movie with Cotazilla, let's say, on in a different way. Uh he he produced one of the best Star Wars movies, albeit a sort of spin-off, you know, a pre-Star Wars set movie, one that's then inspired Andor the TV series as well. So, you know, he and he was obviously heavily involved with that. I think the creator was one of the great unsung movies of the last few years. He was very unlucky when that came out during the actor's strike, I think, but you know, that's a separate issue. You know, the guy's got imagination, talent, he knows he understands what I mean, he was in totally inspired by Spielberg anyway as a kid. Yeah, he soaked all that stuff up for years, and he just understands what makes these movies tick. So I yeah, I was delighted when I heard he was doing it because I just thought, well, that that is a perfect combination of elements. And then, you know, from what I'm led to believe, Scarlett Hansen, obviously, who's the lead as Zora, she is a massive Jurassic fan. Now that doesn't mean you're gonna give a great performance just because you love the franchise, but yeah, we all know she's a great actress, and she's handled big scale fair before in the you know playing Black Widow, of course. Yeah, so she you know she can do that sort of stuff, and she's also a very solid actress. Yeah, and I think that really shines through. So, yeah, that if you just literally just pick those three elements, i.e., writer, director, and lead actress, you all being kind of perfect, it's like, well, you're in a already in a great place.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Yeah, yeah. What what's your take on did did you see um monsters when it when it first came out?

SPEAKER_02 19:52

I did, and uh I liked it very much. Obviously, I had no idea who Gareth was. No. Uh I can't remember where I saw it, if I saw a screening or if I saw like a like it on DVD or something. I just don't remember, but I I do remember being very impressed with it. Strangely, and I won't go into it, but there's a scene in the Jurassic, his Jurassic, Jurassic World Rebirth, that reminded me a little bit of Monsters. You know, Monsters as I remember it, it's been a long time since I've seen it now. It's not all, it's not really about you know carnage or anything of that sort. It's quite a beautiful film in places. And I think there's some there's some real elegance in in this Jurassic film as well, which hopefully you'll you'll appreciate when you see it.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yeah. Yeah. I rewatched um Monsters this morning because I was just I hadn't I want to watch all of the songs before getting to see the new one. And it is just I it now knowing that he's directed this one, it's just full of Jurassic Park references. Kind of the visual language of it's all set in Central America, uh giant fences. Uh there's also a setup where the monsters attack two cars and there's shots from within the car which feels uh just exactly like the T-Rex scene. Just watching that and then knowing that his next film was going to be Godzilla, you just who else would you choose? If you're whole handling Godzilla, there's nobody else that you would give it to when if you look at his um filmography, or just that one film, to be honest, and the fact that he did all those visual effects work himself.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Well that's it. He un he understands visual effects, that's the background he came from. And that's quite rare for a director to be that up on it, you know, to to be aware of what works and what doesn't work. And but yeah, there's a certain I don't know, poetry to his work, I think, as well. I mean, not just in monsters, definitely in monsters, but but in in something like The Creator as well. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's interesting you mentioned the Central America thing as well, because I remember you said when they were talking about where to film a rebirth, the suggestions were either Costa Rica or which obviously has associations with the the Crichton books. It was either Costa Rica or Thailand, and obviously Thailand is where they went. But he shot in both Thailand for the creator and Costa Rica for monsters. So strangely, he he knew both landscapes very, very well. And that that counts for something, I think. Obviously, as we said, he he's ultimately gone to Thailand. And you know, I'm sure he had incredible location scouts as well to help him. But you just get the sense he really understands the beauty of that that world and that location. Obviously, it's not meant to be Thailand, it's you know it's meant to be this uh you know secret islanders we've been talking about or alluding to. But yeah, I think that really helps as well, that he was familiar with those landscapes. Uh it just seems to be really embedded in in Rebirth.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Do you think there's a common threads that run through his films in that sense?

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Hmm, that's interesting. I mean, there's a sort of Spielbergian childlike wonder, I guess, with the with the with the world around us and possibly, you know, the world above us, whether even if it's a fictionalized version, I mean, he has a huge imagination. He obviously loved science fiction, fantasy, and maybe it's not quite the right word, but yeah, I think you know, he's obviously interested in technology and things that can go wrong, you know, mankind's hubris, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Yeah, I'd say those were sort of key things.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah. I also quite like his characters. That there's a lot of people have said that the character from of Aaron Taylor Johnson in Godzilla is a little bit one one note. And but I re-watching Monsters this morning, I think all of his main characters are sort of outsiders. Everybody he likes to be dealing with are kind of rough around the edges, but they're all driven with this sort of moral, um, the kind of morality for the the the greater good as such of doing something for um the betterment of of other people.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

That's interesting, because that again, without venturing into spoiler territory, some of those elements you've just picked out do tie into rebirth as well, and the reasons they're going to this island and what they're trying to do, and whether uh do you know? So before I give anything away that I shouldn't be giving away, do you know what they're going to the island for?

SPEAKER_00 24:05

For the DNA of the three largest species, I think. Yeah, to kind of help uh it's something to do with heart disease. Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

It's it's uh coronary to sort of disease. So it's it's about you know whether they you know a pharmaceutical company will will make billions, trillions from that, or whether it should be perhaps not chargeable, as it were. You know, it should be available for yeah, science, you know, it should be available for all, uh I think is a quote in it. Um so it it it's kind of touching on the same topics, I think.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah. Interesting. And I I like also the fact that his films feel quite classic in their storytelling, they're quite streamlined, which I think is lacking sometimes in modern blockbusters. I was again with monsters, it feels like it's essentially it happened one night, but with like giant aliens, like this this this billionaire's daughter is having to be taken across the country, not by Clark Gable, but by Scoop McNeary, to return, and they obviously fall in love on their way. But even they're travelling in like the big buses that like the big American buses through through through um through South America. When they said about the the the storyline for for rebirth, it felt like it's just back to basic sort of idea. This is how these films work the best, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

I mean, Ket definitely said that he well, he obviously wrote the first two. That's the tone that he understands, and yeah, that's what he wanted to get back to. I mean, I it's I don't know. Do you think the Colin Trevaro overseen trilogy, let's say, because he he was kind of involved in all the scripts, wasn't he? And then very much and obviously directed two and kind of produced them all, you know, so on and so forth. He's you know, it's it's it's his trilogy as much as Spielberg or anyone else's. Yes. But do you feel the tone is very different to the the the Park movies?

SPEAKER_00 25:59

I think he's got amazing ideas, Colin, and what he wanted to put into those films. I think probably for me, Fallen Kingdom is my favourite of those, because I think it takes the biggest swings. Plus, I'm a a a big horror fan and I like J.A. Bayona, and I I think watching it again, there's a lot of subtle comedy and digs and the kind of extra characters that are in there, like having um the guy from Silence of the Lambs and Ted Levine.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Well, yeah, his death is a is one of the best deaths in any of the movies. But that's because Ted Levine's a fantastic actor.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Yes, yeah. And even like there's um what's it called? Peter Jason, I think recently died, who's um like a an actor from lots of B movies in the 80s and stuff, and he's in that film. You just think you know the people that you've chosen for this to actually do these very small parts, but if you know who they are, it's it's a knowing wink to what film you're trying to make.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Toby Jones as well. Yes, exactly. I mean he's he's always very good value. Yeah, it's funny. I it Fallen Kingdom is the one I liked the least, strangely, of those. I mean, I love Jurassic World. I mean, I've got I've grown to appreciate it more since working on the book, but yeah, it again when we were talking about what works best, like in terms of an island setting. So, in a way, the the the house that the second half of Fallen Kingdom is set on, it's essentially is the island, but to me didn't work quite as well. But I do see the sort of you know the the the gothic yeah intent of having that as a house, and like you said, if you're a horror fan such as yourself, you'll probably get more out of it. It didn't quite work for me. I really like the the the the bit of in Fallen Kingdom on the island with the sort of the lava explosion and there are some cracking scenes in in that, but yeah, the the it the the the house didn't quite do it for me personally, but you know I know people that like it.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

So I think my issue with the three world films is the speed at which they move at. Whereas if you look at Jurassic Park, um even Jurassic Park 3, even though that film's an hour and a half, there are moments where the characters can stop and talk and discuss and actually flesh out rather than just giving exposition. I'm thinking of like the lunch scene in Jurassic Park where they're sitting round, or even like the action sequences, just saying to the audience, like with the main road attack scene, no music from John Williams, we're just we're just here for eight or ten minutes, and this is all that we're focusing on is this one moment. We're just we're not gonna zoom around and go to other places, we're just gonna focus on this one, you know, bit of filmmaking, the real bit of filmmaking.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Yeah, it's funny. I was thinking i in Rebirth, which I think clocks in at just over two hours or two hours ten. I don't know the exact running time, but it's it's in that ballpark. And I definitely thought there were moments where he gave the chance for the characters to breathe and and you get to know them a little. I mean, yeah, perhaps not as well as it's done in Jurassic Parlour you were just describing. Yeah, so I you know, and I I was pleased at that. It wasn't all just action and exposition, yeah. And and that I mean Dominion is a sort of it's a kind of madcap chase film, really, isn't it? Across the world. It is, yeah. And you know, you might argue that that whole sort of sequence where you know they're on the motorbikes and they they you know, the bit that was shot in Malta basically is that even really necessary? I mean, the one the bit that always stuns me about that film is and again, this comes from when you write these books, you speak to people, you you found out the incredible effort that's gone into these scenes. Exactly. So my example there would be the dinosaur black market, where uh you know, this kind of underground black market where you you've got all these incredible animatronic dinosaurs on set, and and of course, that's a great homage to the original dinosaurs and how they were sort of partly at least produced for the first movie. And it was great that they had a scene that you could use that, and then the kind of camera camera just sort of glides over them and you don't really see them that much. And I was like, oh my god, they sounded so incredible when they were described to me. And yeah, I don't know. I guess if you pause to your DVD a lot, you can see them. But I felt like that scene could have been made a lot more of. But then it's a bit like, well, is that just clogging up the narrative? Is that being I don't know, but the pacing of Dominion is a little, you know, perhaps needed work on, I suppose. But um or you know, maybe we just needed to get to the island again. It's another well, it's not an island, is it? It's a valley. Sanctuary, yeah. Yeah, sanctuary. Uh what I'm just curious what you thought of um Lewis Dodgson, who basically is one of my favourite characters from the books because he's st he's spectacular in as a villain in in the Lost Bell book. And obviously they didn't do that version, and I kind of really had hoped that they would have done that version. It was pretty pr it's pretty um pretty nasty. So maybe they just thought we can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

And I think he is still quite nasty in the film, but and I love Campbell Scott, I must say I love Campbell Scott. No, yeah, and he's I think he gives a very he gives a performance that's that was quite surprising when I watched it, and that was in in a in a good way. I was surprised by his he feels like somebody who went really deep in that character, definitely. But it it's a shame because from a fan's perspective, he's such a big part of all of Jurassic that you you're kind of waiting for him to come back, and I don't know whether it hit emotionally or whether it would even resonate with anybody that wasn't a Jurassic Park fan. Like what questioning why Ellie and Grant were so down on Dodgson, but by the time like they're all Dodgson, this, that, and the other. You're like, but we've as an audience, we've seen the scene with Nedry. Most people will have forgotten that that's even Dodgson. And then we get to Dominion, and the only thing we see of him is in that now this clip at the start of the film, is his introduction. And you're like, well, why why why do we need to hate him? It's they're kind of they talk about the seed and bias in seed, but I don't think it's uh it's driven home enough who he is before we finally uh meet him. And I think uh all the ideas are really rich in Dominion, but I they don't hit emotionally as much as I was hoping for, as a kind of culmination of six films, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Yeah, it's interesting, and it is a it is a different tone, uh and I guess it had to be in a way, because you can't recycle what they did in Jurassic Park. He did try and do something, you know, getting the dinosaurs out into the world had its pros and cons, I think, as we've sort of alluded to, um, when dinosaurs are sort of stomping round a city, let's say it's a different vibe. You're trapped on an island, there's nowhere to go. Though that said, I love the bit at the beginning of Dominion with the dinosaur in the in the open air cinema.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Um that was cut for the for the theatrical. Well, yes, it was.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Uh, they they kind of restored it, didn't they?

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah, I think the extended is far better than from what they actually put into cinemas.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Um yeah, I wonder if they if that extended version had been out been the let's say original version, if that's what you want to call it, or the theatrical version. It have if the reviews would have been more positive. I mean Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

It's hard. I think definitely the the start, because it does it the end of Fallen Kingdom promises so much in terms of the dinosaurs being everywhere, and then it's sort of almost happened. We kind of take it for granted that it's happened in by the time we get to Dominion, and it's just too many small little shots of it in the world. But when we go to new locations, which we do quite a lot in Dominion, there's no big grand sweeping uh landscape shots or where we can get a connection of scale or what people are doing with these dinosaurs. It feels uh like we we we're too focused on what's the next bit of the story. Let's get back to a medium shot of a character, let's get back to talking, and it's just like just give just give it a moment. I mean, the t when you take away the T-Rex bit at the start of the film, you don't actually see the T-Rex until nearly the end of the film where it comes and finds the Giga in the forest. And so it's it if that grudge match that's set up at the end without the Cretaceous bit and without the T-Rex in the uh drive in cinema just feels like oh it's just we need a T-Rex moment.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

So let's just let's just put it. All I can say is you won't be disappointed with the T-Rex moment in rebirth. That's all I'll say.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Oh, you're making me more excited.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

But you know what that is, right? You must know what that is.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Well, I know I I know the yeah, the River R sequence.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

And that that that is its sequence, but it's it's I mean that's amaz I'm I'm so pleased they pulled that. I guess that's something we haven't talked about, and that is in the public domain now, so we can probably talk about it. But you know, that was obviously a famous sequence from the first book that they storyboarded and we're gonna do, and then didn't, um, and cut it. And thank God, because you wouldn't have been able to pull it off then with sort of however they would have done it, sort of animatronics or whatever, it just wouldn't have worked, not in the way it it works now. So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

I think the shot there's that one shot in the new trailer of the T-Rex slowly walking into the water, and just the weight and dread that it doesn't there's no running, and they're just these small people in a boat. And I spoke to somebody, um Jack, he worked on the viral marketing campaign for all of the uh world films, and he said when he saw that, he said, that's my favourite shot maybe of the entire franchise. Just like that's a stat even without seeing the film, just that moment just feels so Jurassic Park, just everything encompassing in that one moment of the T-Rex walking into the water.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Yeah, and you and you can't really call it fan service, even though probably most fans who know the books well would want that scene filmed because it's completely you know embedded in the film, it doesn't stick out, you know, it's like well, oh yeah, no, that that works basically. I'm not gonna say any more than that. But I know you're gonna dig that scene.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Yeah. I was wondering if David Kepp has any sort of traits from Jurassic Park and Lost World that he kind of brings that brings forward into this new film. I'm thinking of I mean, do you think he does have traits within his his films that he likes to play with?

SPEAKER_02 36:21

Well, he did say he again, I suppose this is going back to the island idea, but he likes those sort of contained in a bottle type stories. That's something that he's enjoyed doing. I mean, you have to go back through his entire canon to see how many times he's done that outside of the Jurassic movies. But I think humour, you know, he you you you can't forget the even the sort of silly joke in in the first Jurassic Park when the kids are up the tree, the you know, the sort of do you think you saw us? Uh but you know, they're silly little kids' jokes, but they they bring texture to the kids and that relationship with um with Alan Grant. Yeah, so the the I think he knows how to season humour in without turning it into a comedy, you know. There's and I I think that works really well. It just humanizes people because even in terrifying situations, there might be a moment that maybe you laugh out of like out of relief because you're terrified, but there are moments that yeah, just little little little moments of humour, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yeah. I I my favourite line is from Jurassic Park is when um uh Malcolm and John Hammond are talking, and ha uh Malcolm's broken his leg. John Hammond's like, well, all major theme parks have delays. And and Ian Malcolm says, Yeah, but when the Pirates of the Caribbean break down, the the pirates don't eat the tourists. And that that just and it's the speed of which Kepp's dialogue and E for Jurassic Park and the Lost World, the way that Spielberg shoots it, people talking over the top of each other, people at different people at conflict. He loves having people talking about conflict and not listening to each other but talking. And that feels very 90s, that snappy-wise cracking dialogue that that that was very rife at the time. Now I it feels like films want to have to make sure the audience knows everything and hear every single line, we need to have everybody speak without overlapping, without butting in on people. So yeah, I'm I'm interested to see whether that makes a makes a return in this film at all. Although that's not really Gareth's style.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

No. Um yeah, I'd have to really, I'll be honest, I'll have to re-watch that again with that in mind to sort of see that. But yeah, I I was pleased with the human interaction in it, let's say. Yeah, given it is quite a pacey piece of work as well. You know, they're on a mission, you know, ultimately. So and then they're on a survival, you know, you know, a moment just they're desperate to survive. So but the as I I've I felt like there was just about enough moments for characters to breathe, but maybe not in, you know, I think with Jurassic Park, the original, you know, the action doesn't really start until what halfway or then I don't know an hour in so you do have quite a lot of ways to get to know the characters in that I wouldn't say that happens here, you know. The the action does start fairly quickly, so it's not quite as skilled as Jurassic Park, but then you know, you that will probably also come down to Crichton as a novelist and building those characters and building that story. And yeah, you know, sadly he's no longer with us, so you know you're not gonna get him to have any input on a future Jurassic story, but um yeah, I I guess the first one has does have a sort of novel's pace on some level, um which maybe the others didn't have.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Do you think they complement each other well, Kep and Edwards on on this film?

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Yeah, I think so. I mean Gareth just knows how to handle scale, there's no question about that. And kept's good at writing set, you know, big set pieces, he knows how to do that. Obviously, Spielberg's got to have had an input into those in some at some level, I'm sure. Yeah, I mean, God. I I obviously I had to ask them, are you going to come back for parts two and three? Assuming there are parts two and three. Um, what would that be? Parts eight and nine, I suppose. Eight, eight and nine, yeah. Obviously, I I mean Kepp said there'd been like he and Spielberg had talked about it, but there's they're they're in the middle of filming, or Spielberg's in the middle of filming this mysterious science fiction film which Kepp has written. So that's what their focus is on now. But you know, they've obviously talked about it. I mean, clearly, you don't go into launching one Jurassic without thinking about a couple of others. No. Whether they bring back characters, that that would be interesting. It'd be interesting to know where it would go. I mean, yeah, you'll you'll you you we can talk more when you've seen it about that, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

I'm interested. I have so I know bits about this film, obviously, from the trailers and stuff, but like what is Universal's Endgame with this new film? Like, is this launching a new series of films? I suppose if the box office is good, then yes. But I I I have no idea where this new trajectory is going, which is quite exciting as as a fact.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Yeah, and that that's a good point. Even at the end of the film, I wasn't sure well what would come next. Yeah, I was trying to figure that out while watching it. Well, given what they're talking about, where will this go afterwards? Because they can't go back to the islands again. You know, so yeah, again, this is always it's a bit like the James Bond conundrum now, where they box themselves in after killing Bond off in no time to die. It's like, well, where do they where where do Amazon go now? What do they do? And you know, hopefully some smart, intelligent writer will come along with some great ideas, you know, and whether that's David or or anybody else, I'm not sure. I I don't know whether Gareth would come back. I I I mean he I'd love him to. He's put he's he's put a great stamp on on the Jurassic franchise for sure. And I'm sure Universal would love to get to come back with the right script, but yeah, who knows? Who knows? I I cannot tell where this this will go. But that, as you say, that is kind of exciting. Yeah, I mean, you know, finally, I suppose you could say with this one, you've broken away from Alan Grant's universe, if that makes sense, you know, because Grant's shadow, I suppose, is across all of them on some level. Um, I'm not sure if he's referenced in like Fallen Kingdom, I don't think he is, but you know, he's kind of you know the spiritual centre of you know, in terms of characters, I guess. It's a bit like with Star Wars when they kind of re-brought that back in. Yes, there were original characters coming back in, but in a way you're setting up new characters now, so it's like the universe isn't the Star Wars universe isn't just about the Skywalker clan now. And here there are now other people in the Jurassic Universe. I mean, we know there are, of course, it's just people in the world, but now the story can go in a completely different direction with different people. So that is exciting, I think.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Yeah. Um, yeah, I'd just like to say thank you very much for joining me today. Your books are always sitting next to me when I've been doing these recordings, and they've haven't left my coffee table for months. Uh, they're they're just amazing. And people that I speak to and they send me little like when I put up an episode and I've mentioned something in a show, they then send me little bits from your book and says this is a little fuller discussion of what you were talking about. So they are being well loved by um Jurassic Park uh fans. I think particularly the Jurassic Park 3 stuff, that was because that film didn't get the love. No, like the first two films had those really good making of books.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Making of books, yeah, it's true. And I I have to say that was a that was a from that first book. It's a bit like because I before I did the visual history for Jurassic Park, I for the same publisher I did one for Die Hard, which was started by another writer and then he left the project and I kind of came on to finish it. You know, obviously you have you pay the most attention to Die Hard, the original movie, of course you do. But you've still got to give a bit of love to a good Day to Die Hard, the fifth one, which I know and you know isn't as good as the first movie. We all know that. But you can't just write, well, this movie's terrible because it that doesn't work. And it's you know, it it has good moments in it, even if the full product doesn't quite work as well as the original diehard. Um, and it was the same with Jurassic Park 3. It was like, yes, we know it's not as good as Jurassic Park, but there are some great moments in Jurassic Park 3, and the sort of the writing history behind it was kind of fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

More so than any other, I think the kind of production history of that. I uh when I spoke to Daniel Stephen, who's done the full stuck on sauna podcast about that, you know, and it's the imagination, it's like what could have been.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

He was obsessed by uh Jurassic Park 3. I remember speaking to him, but um yeah, I I mean I will say as a little you know shout out, Joe Johnston was amazing in terms of like uh the answers he gave me, the detail he gave me. He was very open and and available to talk to, and that's a real that's a great start. Unfortunately, it was quite hard to get hold of some of those writers that had worked on some of those scripts.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

I'm fascinated to know why, because those scripts don't exist for the first the Australian. I've been blanking on who he was, then the the Australian person. I know who you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

I'm also blanking on his name, but I yeah, I know who you mean. Yeah, that one I scoured for or tried to get hold of him. I worked for outlets in Australia, and I did say to one of them, Do you have a contact with this guy? And um and I didn't. And yeah, there was, I mean, there was the guy that also wrote Shay, the Sodoberg double movie. He he wrote a draft. And then I remember getting well, I think the breakthrough moment was Alexander Payne, who obviously did the kind of uh with Jim Taylor, his regular writing partner, who they did the the sort of tidy up, I suppose you'd call it the pass at it. I Pat Payne I've interviewed a number of times, and he's he's been you know always always very eloquent to talk to, and he was very happy to talk, and he passed me on details for Jim, who I'd never interviewed before.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Sort of the handing of the baton from Crichton and Spielberg and Kepp, all on Joe Johnson's shoulders. And it's just like, right, here we go, and we're taking no nobody else from the first two films are really going to be involved in terms of story, and you know, I'm gonna go off and do uh um AI.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

But you have to say Johnson, like we were saying, Gareth's the perfect director now. Back then he'd just done Jumanji, he was the right person to do it. Yeah, and you know, there are some stunning, you know, the the plane crash sequence near the beginning, for example.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Oh, it's amazing, and it's model work as well, which is what he knows so well. Um, and yeah, and that's why it's I think that's why that film visually stands up so well today, is because of the blending of the CGI and the practical effects of that film. They work really well together.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

I mean, you talked about being a horror fan. Uh I think the sequence towards the end with the Tyranodons in the kind of hog uh that that that is one of the best single best set pieces, let's call it, in any of the Jurassic movies. I mean, you know, that that works brilliantly.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Yeah, and it has that because it's in the novel as well, sort of, you know, they they we wanted that scene in that film, and it has so much weight to it when you know the reveal that you're in a birdcage, and then the shadowy figure of the um Pteranodon walking across the walkway. Yeah, it's it announces itself in the same way that almost like a T-Rex does in the first film, and it makes that moment. I think that's what I mean about kind of action sequences having a having their time, you know, dedicating that big bit of the film and having a a start, uh, a a beginning, middle, and end of the action sequences as well. They move from the top of the canyon all the way down and then out. It feels it's got its own motivation and story, that little action sequence, which I really will.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Yeah, no, I've it's it's it's good that I'm glad that that people appreciate the you know the the attention I paid to it because you can't just ignore the third film because perhaps it's not it wasn't quite as satisfying as the other two, but it still has lots and lots to talk about. And yeah, like you say, people hadn't really written about it in the same way as the first two films have been covered. So that was the sort of in a way, that's the one you sort of take under your wing more because you know that Jurassic fans will want to know because there isn't the info out there. As I mean, there was plenty of stuff out there on it, but perhaps not, didn't have a fantastic making odd book in the way as you said the first two films did.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Yeah, kind of being able to read it in a narrative sense was really is really good.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

I mean, I have to say, by the way, those two making odd books that we were referring to, as it's they are never mind the fact that it's about Jurassic, but they are two of the best making of books I've ever read for any m you know, movie kind of insider's thing.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

The access for them is incredible and the the kind of honesty as well, how how how they write and the the interviews and stuff, it's yeah, it doesn't feel um studio product at all.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

No, no, I'm surprised they got some to do them in that in that way. But um, yeah, those books are still probably passed around on you know eBay or whatever, they're they're very valuable commodities.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Me too from from from the time, yeah. But is there any projects that you can tell us that you're working on at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 49:02

I have finished a book. I don't know if it's been announced, I probably won't say just yet, but it's a very big movie, I'll say that much. Okay, and yeah, that's sort of been one that's kind of been on in the works for a long time, and I'm not exactly sure when it's coming out, but yeah, it's a big one, I'll say that much. I'm a big director, so it doesn't involve dinosaurs.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

And also I was wondering where people can find you online or your writing. Good question.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Well, I'm I'm freelance, so I write for a lot of different outlets. I used to write for Topal Film, which is obviously a pretty well-known big film magazine. I expect you know that closed, unfortunately. I write for various places. South China Morning Post in Hong Kong. I do a lot of work for them. The National, which is a paper in the UAE, in the UK, uh, the Independent, Metro, British cinematographer. I am interviewing John Matheson for rebirth for that that publication. So uh yeah, you know, variety. I'm not I'm not very prolific on social media, so don't bother looking.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Well, yeah, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been actually really fun just to talk about rebirth, make me more excited, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Thank you very much for having me. Thank you. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

My huge thanks to James for that conversation. And I think as all Jurassic fans know, his books are now indispensable for lots of us, and I really can't wait to get him back on the show so we can actually get into the nitty-gritty of rebirth and all of our thoughts on it. For everybody going to see the film tonight, have an amazing time. And remember to let me know your thoughts of the film at Road to Rebirth Pod on Instagram, and email me your review if you want to at road to rebirthpod at gmail.com. Next week I'll be bringing you my interview with Matthew Clarke, the lead graphic designer for Rebirth. It's not really about rebirth as we recorded it a little bit before the film came out. It's more to do with how you build a world in filmmaking, particularly looking at Jurassic Park and uh the subtleties uh that that uh film's production design does to make us believe that this is a fully fleshed out island and there are many, many exhibits and places that are unexplored on Isla Nublar. It's an incredible conversation. I don't think I've ever sat down with someone and discussed Jurassic Park in that way. It's truly not to be missed. But until next time, I'll just say thank you very much for listening and goodbye.