Inside London’s Natural History Museum

The Natural History Museum is the most visited attraction in the UK, and almost nobody looks up.

In this episode I walk through the museum as two things at once: a beloved London landmark, and a working scientific institution with hundreds of researchers behind the galleries. We start in the cathedral-like main hall and work outward, taking in the terracotta animals hidden in the stonework, the Darwin myths that refuse to die, Hope the blue whale, and Dippy the Diplodocus, whose arrival in 1905 kicked off British dinosaur fever.
Along the way we get into Hans Sloane and the British Museum roots, Richard Owen’s ambition to build a temple to nature, and what the museum is planning for its 150th anniversary.

Guests
Alastair Hendry
Tom Luker

Links
Natural History Museum: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/

Transcript

A VHS Leads To One Building

Roland 0:40

I found on YouTube the official Dinosaurs VHS that they used to sell at the Natural History Museum. This film was made in 1993. And today's episode is all about this building. This building means so much to so many people who love dinosaurs. And I can't wait to explore it with you today. My name is Roland Squire. And this is the Pirates of Don't Eat the Tourist. I love the opening of this where we have to it's PS1 level graphics. Okay, so get that in your head. If you know what that looks like. And then you've got the barely articulate. It's somewhere that if I'm meeting somebody in London, that's the place to meet them. But what I never knew really was the history of the building and how much of the history is actually still present in there now. And part of the joy of walking around the Natural History Museum now is actually seeing how evident that history is. You know, this building is nearly 150 years old. They've got display cabinets all around the second level, which goes into the prominent people, the Victorian age of discovery, natural history discovery. They're all there for you to read about, and there's statues of every everybody. What I'm going to bring you now to sort of cap off this trilogy of episodes looking at the Victorian fascination with fossil discovery and how those discoveries we will see leached into the literature and fiction that was being created at the time.

Meeting The Museum Insiders

Roland 4:07

So I'm just going to bring you my interview with Tom Luca and Alistair Hendry, who both work at the Natural History Museum. I'm going to let them introduce themselves, sit back, relax, and I really hope you enjoy their enthusiasm, passion, and knowledge for this building.

Tom Luker 4:30

Hello, I'm Tom Luca, speaking to you here from the Natural History Museum, and I've loved working here for many years. I won't say how many, but you can probably guess once I start telling you about what I know about Dippy and Hope the Whale.

Alistair Hendry 4:47

Hi, yeah, I'm Alistair Hendry. I'm a creative producer here at the Natural History Museum. I've been at the museum for many, many years, almost 20 years. I've done a range of different things in that time, most of them connected to public engagement, chatting with our visitors, engaging them with our incredible collections and specimens. And over that time I've developed a huge amount of kind of background knowledge about the museum and its collections and people behind them. To the extent that I actually knew people that that joined the museum as part of their induction, I usually give them a little bit of a historical rundown of the museum and the architecture and the people behind it. Just to kind of welcome them to the place. Because it is a fascinating place with a lot of history that a lot of places won't necessarily have. So that's one of the things that have kept me here for this long. And yeah, I'm really excited to talk about some of that with you today.

Roland 5:36

So to get a sense of the building for anybody that hasn't actually been here before, what do you get presented with the second you come into the building?

Alistair Hendry 5:44

Well depends which side. Yeah, well, if you come in the front door, the main entrance, which I think a lot of people would do, I think there's two words, or is it three words, awe and wonder, because it's an enormous building. I think it's it's almost a quarter of a mile from end to end. And if you come in the main the main entrance, you're presented with this cavernous central hall, beautiful terracotta, brickwork, mouldings of animals all around specimen displays. And of course,

First Impressions In The Main Hall

Alistair Hendry 6:16

nowadays when you walk in, you've got the blue whale suspended above you, which is just a hugely impressive sight to see. I know, you know, I came to the museum as a kid as a as a as a visitor when I was about seven, eight years old. And I don't remember much about that visit, but the the image that sticks in my head the most was walking in the front door and seeing Dippy, the dinosaur, in the main hall. That image is burned into my mind, and I'm I'm sure for a lot of people it's that that feeling of awe at the scale of the building. It it feels like walking into a cathedral. We can talk a little bit later about why why that is the case, because it's very deliberate. But yeah, awe and wonder of sort of the words that I think when you walk in that first time. It's it's quite impressive.

Tom Luker 7:02

Yeah, if you're coming in the main entrance, that that is the way to do it, really, isn't it? I mean there's a couple of other entrances. You could come in through the gardens, that's now an entrance on the uh the west side of the museum. But then of course there's the exhibition road entrance on the same side as the VA and the Science Museum. And that used to be a different museum, the geological museum. And I cannot tell you when, but we might be able to find out later uh when that joined with the Natural History Museum to make the Natural History Museum as we know it today. But that end of the museum is still mostly earth science-based things. I'll say that loosely because you are met with the Stegosaurus when you walk up the stairs. But I think that's also maybe slightly lesser extent, but awe and wonder are certainly feelings you'd have when you go in there walking up past the stegosaurus and then seeing the giant globe behind you that you can take the escalator through to head up to learn about volcanoes and earthquakes. Yeah.

Roland 7:56

And does it do you still have that awe and wonder when you come into the building?

Tom Luker 8:00

Over the years, it kind of becomes a oh well, this is where we are. And and but every now and then I I do remind myself, especially when I see it in the people around me visiting, and you see them just dumbfounded standing there looking up at the depths of this place. Actually, that's another thing I'd probably say, it's as as a child when I visited, it seemed endless. Cavernous is a great word that you use there, but it's a labyrinthine kind of building. You know, thanks, Victorians. I don't think we'll ever have signage that ever truly reflects the the ways you can navigate through this building. As much as we've tried over and over again. Finding a room that you never knew existed after multiple visits is not uncommon. There's there are truly depths to this place, both both as a visitor and if you know the extent of the collections, certainly that as well. Yeah.

Alistair Hendry 8:55

I still I still get it when I walk, if I walk in the front door. It was my favourite building in London as a child. It's a big part of why I'm here today. I I think it hasn't lost any of its impact at all. In fact, in some ways it's even it's even better than it ever was, because the if you visit the main hall now, it's it's a closer reflection, I think, of what the founders of the museum wanted than it even was back in like the 70s and 80s. So yeah, it hasn't lost any of its appeal to me at all.

Roland 9:26

Is there something that when people come in that you think, oh I really wish they'd have a look at this, or is there bits little bits in the building that you feel sometimes people miss when when they look at it?

Alistair Hendry 9:37

The first thing that I think I wish people would see and they often miss is the ceiling of the main hall. If you walk in and immediately look up, the first thing, of course, you'll see is the is the blue whale. But look past that to the actual roof itself, and there's these panels of art. I think it's it probably could get the title of the most overlooked piece of art in the world. Because and yet it overlooks you? Yeah, but it it's it's um it's pictures of plants, it's botanical illustrations. But if you look very closely, and in the Victorian era they used to have little binoculars and they'd look up to try and study the paintings. They're all uh many of them are species of plants that were very important to the British Empire because of course the wealth that led to the creation of the museum in the first place, a lot of that did come from Britain's activities around the world across

Hidden Details Above Your Head

Alistair Hendry 10:28

its empire, and the plants were a huge part of that wealth. So things like sugar, chocolate, coffee, all these things, all these plants that were bringing great wealth to the country. Many of them are represented on the ceiling. And it's beautifully detailed, and I don't think anyone looks at it when they walk in because they're too busy looking at all the other things around them. But yeah, it's right there to see. It's got depth. Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And they're all they're all accurate. You know, if you're a botanist, you should be able to identify the species just from the pictures. You don't need the the labels at all.

Roland 11:01

Is there anything that you think that kind of Yeah, that you're just like, oh I'm I love showing this this part off or like narrow it down to one.

Tom Luker 11:13

Ooh. I think uh I get most excited and animated when I'm talking about some of the modern day purpose of the museum. So going from the very historical to the sort of modern day thing. A lot of visitors will will come here and and and and they'll appreciate the architecture and the specimens on display. But when you tell them about the scientists that work here, they they go, what? Scientists? Really? There's the people working here? And and they don't always know that it's a scientific institution as well as a visitor attraction, I guess. But some of those scientific areas can be open to the public on special occasions. And sometimes if if you go on a paid tour to see some of that behind-the-scenes information, and the spirit collection is really where it's at when that comes. I'm gonna sound like I'm trying to sell it here, but I'm genuinely I love I love that part of the museum. So it's by the way, spirit, I'm not talking about ghosts, I'm talking about the specimens in alcohol. So alcohol has a spirit too, well, methylated spirits to preserve the bodies. And this is sort of the modern system of of keeping specimens from well, going moldy, I guess is the easiest way to say it. And some of those specimens are incredible to see. Because you would never otherwise ever get the chance to see it. Even in a a a dry collection on display, because good luck preserving and drying a giant squid.

Roland 12:43

But you know, this place has so many visitors. I think the last year it was the most visited attraction in the UK. Why do you think it has that accolade?

Tom Luker 12:52

I can do the easy one if you'd like. Go on then, Tom. It's accessible financially. We are very proud of the fact that visitors can come here through the doors without having to pay and book a ticket. And that's not true across the world. And we have a lot of people from across the world to visit and are quite surprised when they find out that this is a free-to-visit museum, as are many in London. And I think that is a powerful motivator to remind you that that learning and interest in the natural sciences is something for everyone and something that everybody can access.

Alistair Hendry 13:34

Yeah, I think natural history, the study of nature. Part of that's appealing to everybody. You know, you could go with the dinosaurs, you know, we're as we're associated with a museum of dinosaurs to a lot of people, but so many people growing up love dinosaurs. What is it about dinosaurs? People love their mysterious animals, they look so different to things that are allowed today, they're they're fierce, they're giant, you know, all these. You know, you could go on and on about what what it is about dinosaurs that appeal to a lot of people, and that's what we've become associated with, particularly off the back of things like Dippy the Diplodocus, which were for our generation, when we were kids in the 70s, 80s, 90s, it's the dinosaur that is the image we associate with the museum. And you you only have to look at the popularity of movies like Jurassic Park and things to show that people love this, and they associate this place as the place to go to to see these things and to you know, in the absence of a of an actual Jurassic Park, the next best thing is is a museum that has dinosaurs in it. Now we're actually a lot more than just dinosaurs, a lot more than that. They only make up actually a very small fraction of what this museum's all about. But in the public's imagination, they associate us with dinosaurs. And you know, I think last year we had I think it was seven million visitors, an incredible number to come. And how many of them, if we asked them, what did you come to see? I imagine a lot of them would say, Well, we came to see the dinosaurs.

Roland 14:58

So the building is sort of one man's obsession, which is Richard Owen. So if we could talk a little bit about how this incredible building came to be built.

Alistair Hendry 15:08

Yeah, I mean that's we could we could be here a long time. Uh there's so there's so much history to to the building, and there's a lot of history leading up to it as well. I always say the natural point that I always start with this thinking about this story is going back to the 1700s, which is long before the museum actually physically existed, to a man called Hans Sloan. And Sloane was a a botanist and a physician. There's a long history of physicians and doctors being botanists, because of course plants are the source of a lot of medicine. They have been for thousands of years, that's still the case today. He was very good at what he did. He he originally lived originally in what's now Northern Ireland, but eventually he moved to London. He was a very good doctor. He moved around in kind of the upper circles of society at the time. He was a physician to royalty and and and the wealthy and the elite. And he had this passion, it was almost a side interest, I suppose, when

Scientists Behind The Galleries

Alistair Hendry 16:05

he wasn't working, of collecting things. He collected plants, of course, but he collected skeletons and animal skins, but not just natural history objects, he'd collect artworks and manuscripts, papers, medals, books. He was he just had this passion for collecting. I suppose he's maybe a bit of a hoarder, but he he was able to store all of this in his house in London. In fact, he amassed so much stuff that he bought the house next door to accommodate it all. If you've visited London, if you walk around the area of London called Sloane Square, that's named after him. There's a few streets around that area, Hans Crescent, Sloane Street, it's all named after him. So he was he had a huge impact on society at the time. And over the course of his life, this collection it wasn't really open to the general public like a modern museum is, but it was open to people by appointment. So a lot of his acquaintances and friends and and people that were visiting would would come and witness this collection of curiosities, as it was called. I can't I'd love to have seen what it must have looked like, because it must have been a a sight to the whole, this sort of grand old London townhouse just filled to bursting with everything. But it it it was completely disorganized. It wasn't it was a collection, as I say, that to satisfy one's curiosity, it wasn't really being used as an educational tool or or trying to say anything in particular. It was it was really him indulging in his passion. And because he was so wealthy, he he bought a lot of trinkets and things from other people that collected them. So he didn't necess he wasn't necessarily the kind of explorer that went out and and gathered all these things. He just knew lots of people and was able was able to kind of buy things off them or or get them to to to go out and and source things for him uh so that he could bring them bring them all home. But the you know the the the sort of end to that story is he lived a very long life into his 90s, which is incredible. I mean, that's a great age to live today. Imagine living to that age in the in the 1700s. Yeah, he was very lucky. But he was concerned towards the end of his life that that collection of curiosities when he died would be scattered to the winds, it would just be shared out amongst people, and it he really wanted to try and secure the future of that collection. And he ended up, it was arranged, it was written into his will, it was sold to the nation, to the government. Okay. And his collection, what was a private collection of his, formed the basis of what we know today as the British Museum. And it's Sloane's collection that yeah, is the is the origin of that. The British Museum, a very you know, globally recognized famous institution, it was one of the first institutions of its kind anywhere in the world. It was a museum that wasn't uh owned by a private individual, it wasn't owned by the church or any other organization like that. It was owned by the people. It was the people of Britain. This is a collection for you. And that's been its sort of remit from day one that it's uh it is a collection owned by the British people. And the Natural History Museum is an offshoot of that British Museum. There's a whole story about how that happened. That's where Richard Owen comes in because he was the superintendent of natural history at the British Museum. But one of the things you need if you've got a growing collection is space. And they were running out of space at the British Museum, and that and that is the driving factor behind the creation of a whole new building, which is the Naturalist Museum. So it really goes all the way back to Hans Sloan and his private collection, which led to the British Museum, which ultimately led to the Naturalist Museum. And we were part of the British Museum all the way up until the 1960s, when it was when it was officially sort of separated, uh, and we got the naturalist museum as its own institution rather than just being described as a as a subdivision. But if you look on old specimen labels in the collection, you'll often see the lacronym BMNH, which the British Museum Natural History, which is what it used to be known as. And it's only the more recent material that bears the name Natural History Museum to sort of signify it's now its own institution.

Tom Luker 20:14

I always like the story bit of Anne Sloan effectively selling his collection for a real bargain price to the nation. Yeah. And the only reason he wanted was to have enough money for his daughters to live by after his death was his reason. Yeah. And the thing that I love about all of this is that's what led to the national lottery. And the first big national lottery that happened in the UK was to buy Hans Sloan's collection. To raise the funds to purchase it.

Alistair Hendry 20:47

Yeah, and it yeah, it was, I think off the top of my head, it was sold for about £20,000. And even going back to the 1700s, that's that's a bargain for the the sheer breadth of material that was uh had been collated and was being being sold. But yeah, it was absolutely it was it was primarily to s secure the financial future of his of his children. I think that was why he did it.

Roland 21:11

The original purpose was to house that collection. What was

Why Millions Keep Coming Back

Roland 21:16

the sort of vision, I suppose, for the building and whose was that? How, as you said earlier, the cathedral nature of this place how did that come to be and what what what what was the thinking behind that?

Alistair Hendry 21:31

So when Owen was superintendent of natural history in the British Museum, so we're talking around about this would be around about so the 1850s, 60s, that sort of era, Owen really had to fight quite hard to have the natural history collections really respected by not the general public, they loved it. It was more his superiors at the at the British Museum at the time. Because the British Museum had, for example, an extensive collection of books. The British Library, the origins of that are the same, it's from the British Museum. And the director of the British Museum at the time valued books particularly, but human cultural objects were seen as being more prestigious, more valuable, more interesting, more respectable than dead animals at the time. And Owen, of course, this was his field, this was his expertise. This was this is he had made his name in natural history. He was a respected anatomist. He was probably one of the best and most skilled anatomists of his day. And he had friends in very high places, including Prince Albert, who uh was a strong supporter of Owen's work. And Owen really tried to use his uh status, use his connections to convince the government that there needed to be a separate institution, a separate building to accommodate all of these natural history objects. Because to him it was important that they they be visible to the the visiting the general public. Because the most popular objects in the British Museum were the natural history ones. They were it may not have been the the the favourite objects of the director at the time, but the public loved them. And they were using the public was even using the museum as a kind of reference collection. Because natural history was accessible to almost everyone. You know, you you you go to a park. London's famous for all of the beautiful parks and gardens that that are around, and they were free and open to people to wander around and they would see nature out there.

Tom Luker 23:44

And they could go to the museum to But this would give them uh an exotic look, let's say, natural history. Something they'd never get a chance to see otherwise. Yeah. And especially at that time of the of well, at that time of the world, let alone just the UK. The idea of going to another country is a bit like us trying to go to space today. It's just that impossible to see the rest of the world. So this was a way of seeing things that they would never have a chance to experience before. That's probably one of the reasons why Victorian displays are quite often taxidermy things. They love that. Because that shows you what this animal was like when it was alive. You might never get to see one of these in in real life, but this is the closest you're gonna get. Yeah. But those are very hard to look after.

Alistair Hendry 24:30

Yes. That was a challenge because it's it's quite easy to keep books. But natural history objects, you know, it was not unknown for beetles to get into cabinets and nibble away at things and and you'd open a drawer and it was just dust. You know, skins would

Hans Sloane And The British Museum Roots

Alistair Hendry 24:48

uh would slowly get mothied. And you know, it did happen, especially when you know people were still learning about how to preserve and store these things, and the British Museum was running out of space. And frankly, I think Owen found it quite, it was getting to the point where it was quite embarrassing the state that the collection was in. And you know, nowadays, you know, it's it's weird for us today, because I think natural history is valued in a way that it it just wasn't before, and to think that it was the collections were often allowed to be left in a state of disrepair is is quite shocking to us. But Owen really fought for it. He we kept going on about how no this isn't good enough. He was also trying to appeal to a certain a sort of patriotism as well. So, you know, you've got to remember this this era, the 1800s, this is the British Empire at its height. Britain is is spreading across the globe. And to Owen, it was simply unacceptable that a nation as magnificent and and great as Great Britain did not have a national museum of natural history. I think the words that he used, there had to be a museum that was commensurate with the greatness of the nation, was the sort of thing he was saying. Yeah, I loved the Victorians had a way with words. And he was very just because if you go to Paris, there's a wonderful natural history museum in Paris, and that was there before us, and Owen did not like that at all. You know, that he he could not allow that the French had a natural history museum and Britain didn't. So that was a big motivating factor as well. So he was motivated by a lot of things. Part of it was kind of patriotism, and he used that to appeal to government and to royalty to get the money. He wanted the space to accommodate these specimens that he valued and said, you know, these are important things that we need to appreciate. And he also passionately cared about the public being able to see these things. That was something I don't he's often I don't I don't think people often appreciate how important that was to him. That it's he wanted to share the wonder of the natural world, and this does tie into his his own worldview as well. Owen was a very religious man, very strong views about about life on earth. He believed it was created by God to an intelligent design, and he felt that by sharing the natural world, you're you're sharing God with people as well. And this links back to why the building itself, when you walk in, feels like walking into a cathedral. That's what Owen wanted. He wanted people to witness in this building all of God's incredible creations. It's very effective. You know, people would walk in in the early days and they'd take their hats off in a sign of respect almost because that was the impress that was the feeling they got when they entered the building.

Tom Luker 27:35

It does also make people think highly of him as well. Yes. And I think he quite liked that. He was certainly a man who who liked the accolades and being able to take credit for things. Absolutely.

Alistair Hendry 27:50

It's not unfair, I think, to say that the museum certainly in Owen's day could be seen as a as a temple to Richard Owen and his his it was the way for him to rule over the fields of zoology and paleontology. It's it it's it's very intentional. And you know, history sometimes is quite unkind to Owen, saying that he was quite arrogant and uh he could be difficult to work with. And I think that that is very true. He clashed with other other scientists of the day, people famously people like Charles Darwin, who of course were challenging his scientific authority with these ideas on evolution and natural selection, which really challenged Owen's worldview. People like uh Thomas Henry Huxley, who were big advocates of Darwinism, clashed spectacularly with Owen, and really Owen took that scientific rivalry very personally, struggled with it. But on the other side, apparently he was he he if you weren't a threat to him professionally, he could be a lovely man. And he he was clearly good at sweet talking people and and and and uh winning their their support and things if they weren't a professional threat to him. He's a fascinating individual, I think. You know, he was good at what he did, but he knew he was good at it. Right. Uh I think that's the thing. And there are a few examples through his scientific career you can point to and say that was that was an incredible achievement, and he didn't forget about it. He knew that that was really good. And uh I think that's where the arrogance came in, I think.

Tom Luker 29:20

And if it weren't for him, we wouldn't be sitting in this building.

Alistair Hendry 29:23

No, yeah. Yeah, he he was the one that really pushed uh for the museum to be built, and he was really stubborn about that.

Tom Luker 29:30

He wanted the space. He knew that those specimens were falling into disrepair in the British Museum, needed a new location, and I think it was the the great exhibition that sort of set the stage for this end of London being somewhere for academic interests and certainly in the museum sphere. That paved the way for showcasing things of interest to the nation and public accessibility of it. But at that time, this was right out there. This was not central London. South Kensington was was the was the boonies. You know, this was this is uh the shadowy place we don't speak of. It's right out there. The fact that he ended up deciding on this location was a space-based reasoning. I forget the quote, but it was to do with He likes being closer to the British Museum, but he cannot argue with the acreage he could get out here.

Roland 30:26

Right.

Tom Luker 30:27

And this was the the key need he needed that space for those specimens, those collections.

Roland 30:32

There's definitely a bigger and imposed more imposing building than the British Museum. That side of Richard Owen, I think, is just like I could house my stuff in that tiny, dingy little place, and he's like, right, I'm gonna make something that is bigger and better than what you thought I could make. That feels like something he'd do.

Alistair Hendry 30:49

Yeah, absolutely. And he was you could see he was he was drawing on his relationship with Prince Albert, the great exhibition that you mentioned, Tom, and that was up in Hyde Park, which is you know, is is just up the road from here. And this this whole area of London where the museums are, people refer to it as Museum Quarter with the Naturalist Museum, the Science Museum, the Victorian Albert Museum, you've got Imperial College, the Royal Albert Hall. There's a sort of nickname for the whole area called Albertopolis. Um, because it very much was Prince Albert's kind of idea of bringing this having this area of showcasing Britain's knowledge and achievements and and cultural impact and stuff, and it's all in one place. But in another timeline, the Nat Fist Museum wouldn't have been here, it would have been on the banks of the River Thames, near Charing Cross. And for a long time that was that was where the museum was going to be. But eventually it was decided the land the land was so much cheaper, uh, which is so funny to say these days because it's horrendously expensive in this area now. But um in those days, as you were saying, Tom, the the it was fields, the land was cheap, there was a lot more space, and and they ult ultimately it was decided the museum it was a better fit to have the museum here in South Kensington rather than on the River Thames. Although if it had been on the river, I'm sure it would have been just as successful because that would have been right in the hub of everything.

Tom Luker 32:06

Yeah, then the British Museum would have had more of a hub location of museums spreading not

Richard Owen And A Temple To Nature

Tom Luker 32:12

too far away from it.

Roland 32:13

I've I also read, and I don't know whether this is true, that he, when designing the building, Owen wanted the split of extinct animals in the kind of carvings or ornate features of the building to be one side and then the extant creatures on the other. Is is is that true? That's very true.

Alistair Hendry 32:36

That is very true. And if you know where to look and what to look for in the building in the architecture, you can see that. Just to describe, in case for those that have never seen the museum, it's built predominantly out of terracotta, which is this lovely kind of brown, sandy brown brickwork, and it's very easy to mould. And Owen wanted decoration to be a big part of the architecture of the place, and he commissioned the architect Alfred Waterhouse to work with drawings that Owen provided to create these three-dimensional moulds of animals and plants, so that as you're walking through the building, there is no doubt in your mind that this is a building about nature. As you said, you're absolutely right. On one side of the building, all of the animals and plants that are depicted in the terracotta are extinct, and on the opposite side, they're living in extant animals, and that division is quite interesting. Why, why, why do that? It very much reflected Owen's view of the natural world at that time. Now, Darwin has led us to thinking of nature as a kind of spectrum and something that gradually changes and morphs over millions of years. But Owen saw things, as I said earlier, about God created things to a specific plan and design. And separating things by these lived once and have been selected for extinction from things that are currently around, that was very much in Owen's sort of mind, and it's reflected in the building. Because to us, I think with extinction is a process. I think nowadays we think about a lot, it's a human, often it's a human-made thing. Human activity is leading to the extinction of species. But the Victorians didn't see extinction like that at all. In fact, for many Victorians, if you were an extinct animal, you did something wrong. You were you were stupid. Dinosaurs, for a lot of Victorians, were they were a source of fascination, but they were almost viewed as being kind of stupid animals. You know, they had tiny heads, small brains, and they were too silly to to be able to adapt and survive and endure for very long. Even though we know we know nowadays the dinosaurs lived for millions and millions of years. They were an incredibly successful group. But the Victorians obviously weren't quite aware as aware of that at the time.

Tom Luker 34:58

I like to attribute Owen's decision to do that split. I I I recognize that definitely he wanted to bring this up as a as a person to that is a a bit of a well a knowledge base on it. But I think also for many Victorians, the concept of something going extinct because of their religious ideas at the time was almost a strange concept to begin with. Because that's the idea that that their God had removed a section of the living world it f in the in the time that that existence has been. The idea that something would be completely got rid of. Now, Noah's flood being a thing for their I think it's the anti-diluvianist is the old-fashioned term for the previous to flood things. But the idea that things could go extinct today, no, no, no, that could never happen, surely not. But this was a growing idea in the scientific community, and Owen was a big advocate for it. He had a keen interest in fossils and the idea of a geological time span that included living things that heard of call extinct. He wanted to bring that up. And it was a big concept at the time that not everybody would have been aware of or would have maybe even accepted. But by doing that in the museum, he's made it a forefront, purpose, visual identity of this note of this place. And and an enjoyable one as well, because this terracotta is gorgeous. These molded figures. Okay, I mean maybe not maybe not everybody going to describe them as gorgeous. There's some there's some pretty creepy-looking pterosaurs on the on the extinct side on the front facade, I'll say that much. But it's so striking, uh, and you you can't avoid them. Uh, and it's spent it spent any length of time inside or outside the front of the building, and your eye is going to find them, and you're going to start asking, what is that and why is it there?

Alistair Hendry 36:52

And maybe this is a great point to mention that one that one of the monkeys that's depicted in the terracotta allegedly has the face of Charles Darwin on its head. There are these bearded monkeys climbing the arches of the main hall. And I've gotten quite close to some of them. And I can kind of see where it's coming from. Several of them have a beard. Yes. Yeah. I mean, put it this way. It absolutely makes sense that Richard Owen would want to make a dig at Charles Darwin by having a monkey with his head on it. That that absolutely feels appropriate. I I'm I've never been 100% sure if I've seen the monkey that that is referred to. It may be it may be one of those urban myths, but uh I like to think about it.

Tom Luker 37:41

I don't know, because uh Darwin and Owen got on at the beginning. They did in their early. They were quite good friends, I would say close, but like they knew each other scientifically and they had correspondence that was amiable. Yeah. And certainly Darwin sent specimens from the void back to Owen, and he got to describe them. So I think there was a positive relationship going on there.

Alistair Hendry 37:58

It was later in their careers when Darwin became a real threat to Owen's superiority in the field.

Tom Luker 38:03

But you know, and the beauty of terracotta is you can make a new mould. Yes. Let's make the Darwin get the Darwin one out, get it out, I've had it ready. No. Funnily enough, he he did have his own kind of idea about how living things could change. But it's very different from Darwinian evolution. If I'm not going to go into all the ins and outs right now, but it's about archetypes, was his big idea that there were these several archetypes that living things could kind of bend a little bit to change over the time. Humans are completely separate, by the way. Nothing to do with this, they are their own thing. Very, very special. But these archetypes were somewhat malleable. So that he wasn't a fully everything is fixed forever kind of mentality. But yeah, the idea of Darwinian evolution was way beyond that that scope. And of course, he didn't come up with that in that.

Alistair Hendry 38:48

And that archetype idea that you mentioned was the centerpiece of the museum, the main hall in the centre. If you'd arrived as a Victorian visitor in 1881 when the museum opened, you'd have walked into that main hall and it was referred to as Owen's Index Museum. The layout of the hall, it's a lot-imagine a kind of large cathedral-like hall, and off to the side you've got little alcoves. And the idea that Owen wanted was that in this central part of the museum, the archetypes of life that you mentioned, Tom, each alcove would have a representative of that type. And then the idea being, if you wanted to explore any one of those in more detail, you would then go off either to the east or the west to discover the galleries that had more examples of those. That that was the that idea of the index museum is has been revived in the revamp of the main hall that happened back in 2017, where each of the alcoves now represents. It's not quite the same as Owen's vision, the archetype, because we've moved on scientifically since then, but it does, each alcove does represent a different aspect of the collection to give you a kind of flavour of what's out there.

Tom Luker 39:57

Yeah, this was the big the big change to the main hall that a lot of people weren't very happy with because that was the year that Dippy moved away. Yes, that was opened in 2017, but 2016 was when the work was happening. Yes, that's true. There was a big documentary they made about that, didn't it? Yeah, Dippy and the Whale. So if you're interested in that story, there's some more detail on that one there. But that one was a big change to the look of that main hall. As you say, Alistair, the the wonder bays, as

Terracotta Animals And Darwin Myths

Tom Luker 40:26

we often refer to them as the the little side alcoves on either side of the ground floor of the main hall. Those were changed to reflect different areas of the collection. But we went back to Owen's original vision. Everything wait, let me orient myself, and listeners at home can close their eyes and imagine this too. You're walking into the main hall of the Natural History Museum. If you look to the left, you are going to see present-day living things: invertebrates, giraffes, marlin, corals. And if you look to the right, you will see the extinct, the Mastodon, Mantellosaurus, or never living. There is a meteorite there, and we we need to reference the uh the geological collections as well, the non-like non-living. And then, of course, centre place, which we've mentioned a couple of times already, is hanging above your head is the skeleton of a blue whale in a very dynamic diving position, as if it's diving towards you as you're coming into that main hall. The reason, well, there's a few reasons, but my favorite reason that the blue whale was chosen to go in there, because that's the same blue whale that was originally in the whale hall above the big model. And if you go there today, you may still see there are some brackets suspiciously absent of any specimen still stuck in the ceiling. And to have this blue whale from the ceiling hanging over your heads, first of all, it allows you to walk directly underneath and look up and see all of this animal from all different angles. But also, this is an animal that in the world today is part of a threatened group of animals, whales. And around the 1980s, enough different nations agreed to whaling regulations that the diminishing populations of blue whales around the world started to balance out and even out. And so this is seen as quite a success story. That if if enough humans make the right decisions, we can save these living things from the brink of extinction. So that blue whale is not in the left side of the museum, it's not in the right side of the museum, it's literally hanging in the balance. And that's a story that we all should be aware of. And I I think once I tell most people that story, they go, Oh, all right, I like Dippy, but that's a really good one. All right, okay.

Alistair Hendry 42:48

I think Owen would love it if he were alive for Hollywood, yeah. Because the blue whale, especially. Whales are the a blue whale is the largest animal ever to live. You know, dinosaurs, we we know we love the dinosaurs, so many of them were these enormous giants, but blue whales still beat them.

Tom Luker 43:03

Yeah.

Alistair Hendry 43:04

And Owen, it was very important to Owen that there was enough space in his museum to showcase the largest animals that ever lived. And he often, when he was pushing and advocating and lobbying for an actual museum, he used whales as an example. I need space for them. The irony is the whale hall that you mentioned, Tom, that wasn't built until many years after Owen's death. There wasn't enough the the funding to build a museum was as extensive as it was, wasn't enough. So Owen actually never got to see the whale skeletons on display that he imagined, which I think is a little bit sad. But if you could somehow come into the main hall today, if he could just see it, I I think it would blow his mind. Yeah, I think he would love it. I think he would absolutely love it. Yeah. I'm not sure how he'd feel the biggest animal that's ever lived right here in front of you. I'm not sure how he'd feel about just behind on the top of the stairs is Darwin's statue. Uh but if we Distract him with the blue wheel, I think you'd like that. Yeah, I'm sure he would love that. He would love it. Yeah.

Roland 44:06

So if we talk a little bit about Dippy, Dippy the Diplodocus, who people of a certain vintage, I'm sure it's all three of us. Yes, we're all here. We all remember it. That was, you know, that was my main reason for coming to this museum was seeing the dinosaurs. But they were they part of its original plan, and when did that kind of dinosaur gallery go in? And what was what's the history of that?

Alistair Hendry 44:32

So dinosaurs, I think the reason we sort of alluded to this earlier, but I think the reason that dinosaurs are so strongly associated with this institution is because Dippy was the thing that our generation remembers so much. If you go back to Owen's day, the museum, to him, the Natural History Museum, it was more important to showcase the variety of life on Earth, particularly life from the Empire. Dinosaurs and fossils were a part of this, but they weren't the defining characteristic of the Natural History Museum in that in those days. I think the reason we feel that it it sort of is now is because we were all when we were all kids in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, that we came to the museum, we remembered Dippy. It was a an it was our most memorable thing that we saw. So we grew up and we want to bring our kids to the museum, and dinosaurs are at the forefront of our minds. And of course, the popularity of dinosaurs has just exploded in the in the in the decades since. So, you know, not every kid loves dinosaurs, but let's be honest, most kids have a favourite one.

Tom Luker 45:40

We all grew up around the dinosaur renaissance, they sometimes call it, don't they? Where there was so much media being produced of dinosaur-related things. You know, land before time, Jurassic Park a bit later on. Yeah. You know, you had all of this this newfound love and interest in dinosaurs.

Alistair Hendry 45:57

And dinosaur research was exploding, you know, the the whole, you know, the whole idea of Marionics. Yes, and and dinosaurs, the link between dinosaurs and birds, you know, these these are not new ideas, but they they really started to kind of coalesce, and then you have the huge cultural impact of Jurassic Park, which really started to show the public dinosaurs in a way that we hadn't really seen before. I I've gotten kit books that I had as a kid of dinosaurs, and they're depicted as kind of slow lumbering tiles on the floor. Absolutely. Kind of almost stupid animals, which is very much the old way of looking at them. Jurassic Park comes out off the back of, you know, and the original novel, of course, thoroughly researched, bringing in a lot of new paleontological thinking. And that now it's like, no, dinosaurs can be fast and agile. They they they they displayed more intelligent behavior. Yeah, they could be clever girls. And you know, that that was exciting. As a kid, I remember that was exciting. And I think that's a big, you know, suddenly dinosaurs took on a whole new very new image. I think that helped a lot as well. And and it sort of fed into, yeah, as you say, the the Renaissance, uh, dinosaur renaissance, and we're kind of still still feeling that to an extent because of their popularity. But yeah, I think in Owen's day it wasn't anything like that. They were popular and they they certainly gap grabbed the attention of the public. But to Owen, it was all the other things as well that were just as important.

Tom Luker 47:30

I think the first ever specimen to go in the central hall, a big one in the middle. Walls of whale. Yes. I've looked into that.

Alistair Hendry 47:38

And it's like some old images, there was a whale in there. Some elephants at one point. There were elephants, I think, before Dippy. So I guess it would have probably been the sixties and into seventies, it was there was elephants and other large mammals. Which again just goes to show dinosaurs weren't the weren't necessarily the priority. There was a gallery for them, of course, and it was very popular, but it was also about all the other things as well. But Dippy changed that, definitely, because it was such a an iconic specimen. But Dippy Dippy arrived in the museum long before it ever went in the main hall. It was in a in it was in a side gallery for for many years. Again, it wasn't the centerpiece for a long time, but it was it certainly was an exciting specimen to have, but it wasn't the centerpiece like it was when we were kids. It became the face of the museum almost. A marketable face. Yes. The fact we refer to it as Dippy. Yeah.

Tom Luker 48:33

Yes, the fact that it's a good thing.

Alistair Hendry 48:34

It's got a name, it's you know, a per almost got a sort of personality almost. And it's like

Blue Whale Hope And The Revamp

Alistair Hendry 48:39

that that's very unusual for a museum specimen.

Roland 48:42

I mean, it went on tour. Well, it left here. Yeah. Went on tour. BBC Breakfast was following its tour every single morning with where it was.

Alistair Hendry 48:49

Mostly to cathedrals, because they're big enough to house us uh, yeah. So you've there aren't many spaces to house these things. Um yeah, they ended up in cathedrals, which I thought was a really interesting.

Tom Luker 49:01

But here is where I break all of your listeners' hearts and tell them that Dippy is a replica. It is not the original fossil. I have seen the original fossil, because the the original Diplodocus Carnegie is in the Carnegie Museum of Pittsburgh. And I went out there to see original Dippy, you know, go on my pilgrimage. And I was able to see the original specimen. It seems like, if if the interpretation is to be believed, the type specimen is the one on display. Like they have not made a copy and put it out on display. That that is the original fossil on display, which is quite incredible because we don't always do that here. But we make incredible copies of them and put them out as well.

Alistair Hendry 49:40

We still have bragging rights because the the NHM's copy was on display before the original was ever on display in Pittsburgh. I didn't know that. They were struggling because the because the Pittsburgh one is the original, it is the actual fossils. So these are really heavy bones. Really heavy. Yeah. And mounting those in an articulated form was really challenging. Well, where did we do it before the Paris Natural Fist Museum? The Dippy of the Natural Fist Museum was the first of its kind to be displayed. Because it was a cast, it was a lot lighter. So it's a lot easier to gosh, oh the bones I love that. Yeah, yeah, that would absolutely be. One up on the French Museum, you know. That would suit him definitely. So yeah. So yeah, it's sort of an irony that we don't have the original, but the replica was on display first. Amazing.

Roland 50:32

I mean, that's what I so 1994. I remember renting the VHS to show my family that live live in London. And we before we watched it, we came to the Natural History Museum and we kind of went round the dinosaur gallery. That's sort of my gravitational hub. You know, we'll get the dino get my excitement and the dinosaurs out of the way, and then I can have a look at everything else. It's what dinosaurs do to us. That's sort of what I'm I'm exploring this this year with the podcast, is the way that displaying dinosaurs to the public makes you think about your place in time and the fact that you can disappear, that something so big and so powerful can just disappear in the blink of an eye. And the stories that come out of those fossils, seeing those things on display. And this I'm not sure. So what do we know when the gallery, the actual dinosaur gallery, what year that that opened? Would it have been around when Conan Doyle, about 1912?

Alistair Hendry 51:40

It's moved about, I know that much. The gallery as you see it now would not have been as old as as that. So the likes of Conan Doyle wouldn't have seen wouldn't have seen that. If memory serves correctly. But he would have seen exhibits that are in there. Right. Both original fossils and casts that were made.

Tom Luker 52:01

I believe it's currently still labelled as the Ronson Gallery, as the the the donor that gave the money to to renovate it to what it is currently. I would have to double check this, but it's I think 1980s when that happened. Wow. I I remember a big deal being made. Now I was too young, I'm too young to at the time to know when it was, how old I was, but I remember visiting a museum and there was a big celebration of the dinosaur gallery and the use of that space because changes had been made in there. But I know a big part of that was animatronics and the inclusion of animatronics in that gallery. Still some there to this day, not as many as there once were.

Roland 52:48

No.

Tom Luker 52:49

But they were a big pull and that uh as a as a modern continuation of excitement. I say modern, some of those have been in there for a long time.

Alistair Hendry 52:56

I know. Yeah.

Tom Luker 52:58

Yeah, they're still 30 30 years old. Yeah. Possibly all that. I bring family and friends here with young children, and the the thing they remember is the T-Rex.

Roland 53:08

Yeah. You know, roughly think the 1980s. Just these all these things just keep coming back to that dinosaur renaissance where it seems just the same dipodous. Like the fact that somebody would give money for then that to be just given an extra boost, a bit more media attention to it, and then that feeds into everybody else that's thinking about dinosaurs for some reason at that time. I need to. I've got some scientists and some social historians that I'm speaking to later on who are looking, I'm going to talk to them about the 80s and 90s and why. See if we can nail down why these dinosaurs just suddenly came back to that.

Alistair Hendry 53:45

I wonder if part of it could be the animatronics that you mentioned, Tom, the technology to make them work really started to it would have been building up throughout the 60s, 70s, and and then and you know it starts to become more affordable and easier to work with in the 80s. You know, I'm thinking huge dinosaur animatronics, the likes of Walt Disney were experimenting with that. Do you remember the universe of energy? And you know, with the huge dinosaur dinosaurs. Oh, yeah. And you know, that that was early 80s. And you think now this technology is is is is is expanding and rolling out. And because dinosaur skeletons are one thing. They're fascinating and exciting to look at. But when they're brought to life in the form of an animatronic, you know, for a kid especially, that's that's so exciting and and and you know, it leaves an impression on you. I I I remember visiting touring exhibitions that were just animatronic dinosaurs. You know, that that really stuck with me because it that's the closest you were ever going to get to to seeing you know to getting a sense of what these animals would have been like, you know. I wonder if that's part of it. Yeah.

Roland 55:05

The technology

Dippy’s Story And Dinosaur Fever

Roland 55:06

got to the point where we ever so the science was getting to a sort of thing. The science was there, yeah. And it was so being there in the 60s, but it was filtering through to the public in the 80s. Then you match that with the technology of kind of the animatronics, and then you bring in all the media that then associates it with that. So it's all of those things that are like this melting pot of yeah, creative, scientific, and then just the public being more ready and willing to take on all of that science involved as well. I suppose what this that's what this building is meant for is teaching regular people. Was that the original plan for this? Was that regular Victorians would come to this? Not just very much so.

Tom Luker 55:49

Not just the super rich. Oh, it was kind of pioneering. The fact that we had gas lamps that could be turned on when it got dark. That was that was new. Oh no, not gas, sorry, um, electrical lamps. So the the the rise of electricity as as a use was was quite quite a big change and a big deal for Victorian audiences. We still have one gallery that is Victorian styled, isn't it?

Alistair Hendry 56:12

The Minerals Gallery has been left largely as it would have been to Victorian business, which is really good. But and it is interesting when you go there because yes, from day one, the purpose of the museum is a is a place of education, it's a place of learning. The way there are so many different ways you can educate people about nature, of course. And not everyone Owen had a particular view of how you would do it, and all the subsequent museum directors have had, the curators will have had different opinions, and there was often lots of conflict between how do we how do we balance the desire to showcase the natural world to visitors to educate them about it with the desire of scientists to use that collection to further our understanding of nature. Yeah, there are cases where there was falling out between curators because they couldn't agree on what specimens would go in the case. And you know, they wanted to have some curators wanted cases where you could put the specimens on display, but then you could open the back and pull them off display really easily so that a scientist could use it. But it had to be back on display so that it was there for the public to see. And it it's a it there's a sort of tension. What what is more important? Is it the public engagement with the collections or is it the research? The truth is neither is more important. It's the museum exists to be both those things. But it goes right back to Owen's day. You know, Owen had a he very much wanted to showcase to visitors to educate them and inspire them. But there were other scientists at the time, people like Huxley, for example, who advocated more for, well, this should be a place of scientific research. Maybe his vision was more of a kind of university setting where it was more the heavy academic research. It wasn't about your average Victorian walking in and seeing some lovely taxidermy.

Tom Luker 58:01

Again, it goes back to that thing I said much earlier about the public not knowing that this is a scientific institution that is researching the natural world even today. It's not just the visitor attraction. Those two things can be the can be part of the same building. Trying to to get one side of the people that work here to like r respect and and take part in the other side can be a bit of a battle of attrition sometimes. I'm sure back in Richard Owen's day, you you said with Huxley, certainly, he wanted to take them all off and research them. Yeah, it's multiplied.

Alistair Hendry 58:37

It's attention that's been there since day one. Yeah, I don't think it would ever go away because you know it's a collection that can be used in a lot of different ways. Um but yeah, it's still it is still a place of learning.

Tom Luker 58:48

For the record, most of the people that we know that work here are are pretty cool with either side of it. We both realise that we both have to exist and and work together for things to work the best.

Roland 58:59

I think it's an important point because you look at you look at the museum and particularly the age of this, you know, it's uh it's an imposing Victorian building that has a certain you know weight to it, like a th like a cathedral. So you think of it as historic in that sense, and then you see a lot of not living things, you know, it is it but it is a living space. Absolutely.

Alistair Hendry 59:22

Science is not fixed. The you know, I think it's interesting. We were talking about Dippy earlier, and the gallery that Dippy was originally displayed in was the Reptiles Gallery, which doesn't exist anymore. But the physical room does exist, and that's now a gallery called Fixing Our Broken Planet. And I think that does show in some ways how the way the collection's been used and the messages that is that we're communicating with that collection have changed. The idea of climate change and biodiversity loss, habitat destruction, these huge issues that are affecting the world today, that wouldn't have been something that would have crossed his mind. If they wanted a a new rare animal for the collection, they just went out and got it and didn't think twice about the impact that that would have on the environment and so forth. That that gallery is all about educating and showing people the impact that we've

Education Versus Research Then Now

Alistair Hendry 1:00:18

had on the planet, but more importantly, how scientists are using the collection here to address these huge problems that we know about. I I sort of it's I sort of find it interesting that many, many years ago that gallery had had a dinosaur in it. And I think that just shows how the museum's messaging has changed over time to reflect the changing world that that we're in.

Roland 1:00:44

I suppose we're coming up now to the there's 150th anniversary soon. So what's what's the museum? Is there like grand plans in place?

Alistair Hendry 1:00:53

Yeah, I there's there's definitely there's a programme of new new things coming. The details will come out in in the years to come. But yes, the 150th anniversary is definitely a big milestone for the institution and it's gonna be marking that in in a big way. And yeah, I would say to to all your listeners to keep an eye out and an ear out for what's coming because there's there's gonna be lots of new and exciting things coming to the museum.

Tom Luker 1:01:17

Very exciting things coming that we can't talk about, but just keep an eye on this space.

Roland 1:01:22

Yeah. So 2031.

Tom Luker 1:01:23

2031. We opened all that road.

Alistair Hendry 1:01:26

We opened in uh 1881. Yeah. It's it's been yeah, it's been quite a journey for the for the museum. But it's still here. I think it'll be going strong. It's got a new mission now. Creating advocates for the planet, absolutely. That's our big one.

Tom Luker 1:01:40

Yeah. We do both love the place. Yes, very much so. We wouldn't have accumulated all of this info if we didn't.

Roland 1:01:53

My huge thanks to both Tom and Alistair for that conversation and for letting us record in this amazing room in the Natural History Museum. It was oak panelled and a big oak table in the middle.

150th Anniversary And What’s Next

Roland 1:02:10

It's everything you wanted from an institution that is 150 years old, and yet still is very much part of the conversation around conservation and also a place that is still very, very relevant to our discussions about the importance of science and science education. So that's it. I really hope you've enjoyed these last three episodes of the podcast as a sort of introduction to the history of paleontology. And now the story moves forward. Now I get into the meat on the bones of these dinosaur fossils. Because next time.

Adam Roberts 1:02:55

But then through the 20th century and up to the 21st century, there's a fundamental problem, which is that from quite early on, people came to understand that dinosaurs and human beings had never coexisted on the planet. So if you want to tell a story that is more than just paleontology, you have to put characters in there. And that means you need a twist, you need dinosaurs to be resurrected, as in Jurassic Park, or you need people to go back in time, as in the Ray Bradbury story, or you need to find some other kind of way of putting those two things together.

Roland 1:03:27

I'm moving the conversation towards fiction, and more importantly, science fiction. And who better for me to talk to and introduce us all to the genre of science fiction than the man who's written the history of the genre? Next week, I'm going to bring you my interview with author and professor Adam Roberts. But until then, I'll just say thank you very, very much for listening and goodbye.