Celebrating Sam Neill with James Mottram

How did a self-described character actor become the beating heart of the biggest film franchise on Earth? At the beginning of July we lost our dinosaur man, Dr Alan Grant himself, Sam Neill. This is an episode I never expected to make, but I could not let the moment pass without turning a very sad event into a celebration of a remarkable life and career.

I am joined by James Mottram, author of the Jurassic Park and Jurassic World Ultimate Visual Histories and the Jurassic Park script book. James interviewed Sam Neill a handful of times across 25 years, from a London press day for The Dish in 2000 to a long lockdown phone call during the making of Jurassic World Dominion, and he shares every one of those encounters here!

We go through the James Mason phone call that followed My Brilliant Career, the daredevil early years of Possession and Omen III, and the Dead Calm breakout that convinced Spielberg he had found his Alan Grant. We get into the extraordinary 1993 of The Piano and Jurassic Park, the Bond screen test that never was, the John Carpenter collaborations, the grumpy joys of Jurassic Park 3 and the late masterpiece of Hunt for the Wilderpeople. And we finish on Dominion and the reunion of the original trio, the future of the franchise, the essential Sam Neill films to seek out, and the lovely story of the signed cards he sent out to bookshops when he could not meet readers in person.

Stay to the end for a listener message and my reflections on the Celebrating Sam Neill moment at DinoCon.

Guest
James Mottram

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mottram101 

James’s books
Jurassic Park: The Ultimate Visual History (affiliate link)
https://amzn.to/4wL0BYY
Jurassic World: The Ultimate Visual History (affiliate link)
https://amzn.to/4wL0BYY
The World of The Odyssey: A Visual Journey (affiliate link)
https://amzn.to/3UEFKc8
Filming The Odyssey: Inside the Making of Christopher Nolan’s Modern Epic,(affiliate link)
https://amzn.to/4xaHyrU

The Essential Sam Neill Films, as chosen in this episode
My Brilliant Career (1979)
Possession (1981)
In the Mouth of Madness (1994)
Event Horizon (1997)
Hunt for the Wilderpeople (2016)

Links
Sam Neill, Did I Ever Tell You This? His wonderful memoir, read by Sam himself on audiobook (affiliate link)
https://amzn.to/4zvljyC

Transcript

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Cold Open The Sunglasses Moment

James 0:00

What do you think the biggest meme of his career is it's got to be the taking the sunglasses off? That is one of the greatest reaction shots ever in cinema. That is quite larger than light, obviously, that moment, as it should be. But then he's capable of incredible subtleties, you know. So yeah, he he kinda had it all, really. Uh and he has that charisma as a movie star, but he just would never think it was a movie star.

Why Sam Neill Mattered

Roland 0:45

Today's episode is different and something that I didn't anticipate having to do at all this year. It certainly wasn't on my bucket list for 2026. At the beginning of July, we lost our dinosaur man, Dr. Alan Grant Sam Neal. And I couldn't let the moment pass without having a celebratory conversation with someone about his career. Joining me is James Motram, the author of the Jurassic Park and Jurassic World Visual Histories books, and also the Jurassic Park script book that Derek Davis helped out with. In this conversation, we'll be going through our memories of first seeing Sam Neil in films, uh going through his CV, and also James shares the handful of times that he actually got to meet Sam Neil and talk to him about his career and also his connection to the Jurassic Park series. Hopefully it's a light-hearted conversation in keeping with the man that we're honouring. Make sure you stick to the end of the episode where I wanted to share a message that I got from you about your memories with Sam Neil, so stay to the end of the episode. But for now, here's my conversation with James Motram about the wonderful Sam Neil. Hi James, thank you so much for coming back and joining me today to celebrate Sam Neil. I was wondering what was what was going through your mind when that news came out at the start of July.

James 2:36

First of all, hello, Roland, and thank you for having me back. Yes, yes, of course.

Roland 2:40

I think you're actually the the the the most the the person I've had most on the show, actually, so that's really great.

James 2:45

I feel I feel honest. Thank you. Yeah, well, I guess on some level it wasn't a surprise, because I guess we know he'd been ill, so you know, and so it wasn't a surprise in that sense, maybe, but it's always a big shock, isn't it, when it's yeah, a a major actor. Even if they're not in a in a you know a film or series of films that you're emotionally connected to, I think you know it's always a shock when sort of a great artist leaves us. And but the thing is, I think with Sam Neil, so many people connected to him, and not just through the Jurassic Films though, pro primarily, but he has done so many other great things. And yeah, of course, yeah, I was you know very, very sad when I heard the news.

Roland 3:32

So I woke up to the news, and it was one of those moments where I felt that breath kind of leave me a little bit. I was just because he had come out in I think April this year saying he's cancer free, he's had a bit of a you know, to put it mildly, a rough, you know, three or four years. And then to have that statement, and then I think quite suddenly, obviously for him to pass away. Yeah, it was it was a strange strange mix, you know, the the the fun finality of it all, particularly when he just started back in started to work again. He was, you know, he's got several projects coming up over the next few months. So yeah, I was sort of anticipating him getting back and just being able to see Sam Neil pop up in all sorts of things, which is sort of what he what he was best at. You'd you'd be sitting down watching a film and then suddenly Sam Neil would arrive and you'd be like, oh, yeah, it would always it would always fill my heart a little bit with this the the second you saw him.

James 4:32

Yeah, that I mean that is the sad thing, of course, that there will be no more sad projects. And you you do think if he'd I don't know, lived for for example, for another five years, he'd he may well have done some more films and there'd be more to enjoy. So yeah, of course, from that point of view, it's it's it's tremendously sad because he was obviously enjoying work. I think it's working. And that's always great when you see an actor of that age, that experience, just enjoying themselves. Um which you know he

Alan Grant And Scientists Watching

James 5:00

was he was very good at doing on spring.

Roland 5:03

All the sadness aside, I was at DinoCon at the weekend, and they had a in the opening ceremony section, they had a piece and they had celebrating Sam Neil, and it was just this moment of like, let's let the sadness go for a second and just celebrating. And there was this huge round of applause, and it just it was it was a fantastic moment, I think, just to start that event. And sort of what it meant to the scientists in the room as well, his depiction of what a scientist was, he wasn't the stosh twirling scientist in a lab coat, he was someone who, when presented with his life's work, was emotional and overawed with it all. And I think I hadn't really anticipated just hadn't thought of it in that, in that sort of way that Sam depicting that scientist.

James 5:55

Do you mean in the way that modern-day scientists probably uh those that saw Alan Grant when they were maybe nine or ten back in 1993, I'm not saying that necessarily inspired them on that, on a path towards that, but it perhaps eased them along a little bit. It had something that they could relate to on the screen. And yeah, he probably did do a huge amount for the scientific community and in the way I I suppose the way the science, albeit the Michael Crichton science, is has a futuristic bent to it, but the science is treated seriously, I suppose. And it's not in certainly in the first film, and it's it's not seen as something I mean, it is dangerous, we know that there are dangers, but there some of these characters, at least some of them, have morals, and they certainly threw Alan Grad's anyway. Yeah. Yeah, it it did just give us a different it wasn't a sort of mad scientist Dr. Frankenstein. No, right?

Roland 6:52

No, yeah. And Jurassic Park has a few of those,

Meeting Sam Neill On The Circuit

Roland 6:55

so it's a nice name. Yeah. So if we have a look little look through, I've got his Wikipedia page up here, and I was I was wondering if just just flicking through it, is there anything as you were kind of looking back at Sam Neil's career?

James 7:10

I'll tell you what I did earlier today, just to remind myself, was how many I wanted to check how many times I need to be Neil. It's not it's not it's not you know in the in the dozens or anything, but it was a handful of experiences, but different experiences. And so maybe I could sort of talk through those.

Roland 7:28

Yes, differently, yeah, yeah.

James 7:30

Just as a sort of because they are different for different films. The first time I some of these I can't remember where that happened because we're going back quite a while now, but you can probably find on Wikipedia The Dish, which is an Australian comedy he did. Now you're gonna have to remind me of the year. So it's the year 2000, so it's actually just before Jurassic Park 3. Okay, yes, exactly. That is exactly correct, because I went back through the interview. I can't remember where that was, it was probably in London somewhere. I think it probably was, and he came in to promote this kind of charming family comedy if you've sort of fixed in. In in the in the in the period where Australia was turning out things like you know strictly borum and Priscilla Queen of the Desert, it was kind of came from that mould of Australian filmmaking. And you know, obviously he's great in it, but he did talk in that interview, because I kind of had a flick back through it today, about Jurassic Park 3. So that was the first time I ever touched, because he'd done it at that point, but of course was you know underwrapped, couldn't couldn't talk about the story, no one knew what the story was. But he did say, which I thought was really interesting, that he he felt like he really wanted another go at the character, because obviously he doesn't turn up in the second one, and that he felt a little bit I think the word he used was overawed by Spielberg first time around. So, well, obviously he doesn't get the second shot actually being directed by him, but but yeah, it was interesting that he you know, and that's probably typical of an actor feeling a little nervous about their own performance, regardless of the the success, you know, and the time he shot it, obviously no one knew how successful it would be. So yeah, he was probably just thinking, Am I the right person to even do this? I mean, obviously, we all know Harrison Floyd was in Spielberg's mind at one point to play that role, so that's that's someone who's got acres of experience in that field of action adventure movies by that point, whereas Neil hadn't really. So, yeah, I just thought that was a little interesting little aside that he mentioned in that interview. So that was that was as you say, sort of 2000. That I went on set to something called Dean Stanley, and um I know again you'll have to remind me of the years. Dean, but it's terrible. This is fun, this is fun.

Roland 9:36

Oh, here we go. Yeah, 2008, that is. Yep. Dean Stanley.

James 9:39

Well, that would have been in the UK in the UK, shooting somewhere. Now, funny enough, when Sam passed recently, and there were obviously people talking about him, you know, fondly, just you know, obviously not just fans but but collaborators as well. The director of Dean Stanley did actually uh you know make a statement and say how much Neil's involvement in that project, you know, changed his life, basically, as a director, which was the really sweet thing to say. Yeah. Um and that that's a sort of quite a strange film where uh it it's where he obviously plays Dean Spanley, it's involving the Hungarian wine Toki, which sent him into a sort of strange reverie. It's a very odd film, but not only is it going to write on my list, I think. Well, yeah, I I my memory of that really unfortunately isn't very Neil connected because Peter O'Toole is also in the film, so I begin to set at that. Um but Neil, of course, did talk about, as I remember, we we talked about wine because obviously that you know that's one of his well not more than a hobby, really. I mean uh a business that he he sort of set up in New Zealand and yeah, he was uh you know it was he was great within the wine community. So then there was a film which I think was in Venice at the Venice Film Festival called Sweet Country, which is another Australian film you're gonna be looking at wrecking around. Yeah, it was after Jurassic World, because I remember asking him about Jurassic World 2017, yeah. So he he'd had time to see Jurassic World by this point, and which he said something along the lines of yeah, kind of similar to the other one, couple of kids in it, and they get the shit big mouth, which was the exact pretty much the exact quote, I think. But yeah, Sweet Country was a sort of Australian outback drama, you know. Again, he's great in it, just shows his range, basically. And then the final one was with the book, I think it was just on the telephone. It was basically when they were all trapped, he just arrived at the production, I remember that much, but they were making Dominion at the time, and of course they were all locked down in this hotel, and I think he just arrived. So I'm not even sure if he'd shot in the thing when I spoke to him of Dominion, but we we weren't there specifically to talk about that, although we did a little bit more about his you know his entire lifespan with Alan Grant, basically. That was uh that was obviously a fantastic interview, you know. He was so generous and that and gave me so much. And and you know, as I'm sure you've gathered from anything you've seen of him, he's incredibly modest about the success he's had and obviously of that character, but but his career in general. Yeah, I think you know, the the warm, you know, notices that people gave after his death just showed you how sort of beloved he was. Yeah. That's the kind of overriding feeling I get. He's a really down-to-earth guy, very humble, very modest, and obviously brilliant at his job.

Roland 12:37

Yeah. I was so I watched The Piano. I think I might have seen it before, but I it was probably when I was much, much younger. So I watched that last night. And he doesn't have a particularly big part, you know. It's a huge film, obviously, you know, Oscar winning performance for uh I'm trying to Holly Hunter. But what he comes it just reminded me really how selfless he is as an actor. He is uh forever like bringing up ev everybody else in the scene, he's allowing people to be stars in the film. He never really wants to steal the limelight, but I think because he understands that his best role in a film is to be that support to them. He's for you know, everybody says, you know, the best actors are the best reactors. And that's what he does all the time. You can see him he has so many great facial acting quirks. He's just blinking quite a lot, you can see him really mulling over what his next line, what everybody else is doing in the scene, he's constantly working and acting and reacting to everybody else, but without ever really reaching out and ripping the audience's attention to himself.

James 13:57

The question is, do would you call him a movie star?

Roland 14:02

No, I don't think so. And I don't think he would have having read his book, I don't think you he'd call himself a movie star.

James 14:08

I quite I quite agree. I think he's, as I just said, modest and humble. And but in some ways, I think you're completely right, he's a sort of a character actor that became a leading man. Not that dissimilar, I'd say, to Jed Goldblum, strangely. No. Even though they're very different in styles and and their presence is very different, they're both as comfortable, if not more comfortable, as the sort of character actor who can carry a film as well, and have certainly proved so time and again. But but he's a movie star in the sense that he's completely magnetic. You you can't take your eyes off him when he's on screen. I mean, I guess we should talk about the what do you think the biggest meme of his career is? It's gone to be the taking the sunglasses off, right? I mean, and and but that reac yeah, it's one of the greatest reaction shots ever in cinema. I mean, because obviously he wasn't reacting to anything when he was on set. Um possibly Spielberg with a bullhorn or something, but it's uh yeah, you know, and he could just call that, and yeah, he's also and that is quite large for the light, obviously, that's that moment as it should be. But then he's incapable of incredible subtleties, you know. So yeah, he he kind of had it all, really. And he has that charisma as a movie star, but he just would never think of himself as one.

Roland 15:27

No, yeah, yeah. And looking at his 90s work, and I was uh thinking of what what's his biggest meme, he also has In the Mouth of Madness when he wakes up the whole buses, in a long time.

James 15:40

That's the John Carpenter horror movie.

Roland 15:42

Yeah, yeah, which I think is sort of I'm I'm a big John Carpenter fan, and then that's probably his last great sort of film that he could actually get made with some money behind it. And Sam Neil seemingly had an amazing time working with John Carpenter, and John Carpenter said some very nice things when when when the passing just said he enjoyed working with him, and it comes across in that film actually. I've watched it, watched it a long time ago, but recently Yarrow did a 4K release of it, and it is it's a gloriously bizarre film where Neil is that slightly larger than life character, and he has that sort of old-fashioned Hollywood style, like you would have had like in in the 40s and the 50s, you would have had like a

Early Roles Horror And Breakthroughs

Roland 16:30

studio player, and that's that's that's what he feels like in that film and in and in a couple of other others of his films where he's the lead.

James 16:39

Well, I think although I I obviously skipped around with my memories of having interviewed him, you should probably go back to your Wikipedia you know, right. I think perhaps even further back than in the madness, because you really got fairly early. Well, you've got possession, if I'm not mistaken.

Roland 16:56

Yes, that's 81. I've never actually Yeah, I've never actually seen Possession. It's been on my list for ages.

James 17:02

It's quite interesting. There was a film in Cannes this year, it wasn't particularly good. It was called Roma Elastica, and it stars Marianne Cottiar, and she's playing an actress going to make one of these Italian sort of kind of horror movies in the 1980s, that sort of sort of behind-the-scenes kind of a psycho drama. And there's reference to possession in that film because she she gets to know a bunch of the special effects creators, and they've got the various tendrils, shall I say, that are seen in possession. They seem to have these various you know, prosthetics and things lying around, which I thought was quite interesting. But yeah, it's a very strange film. I have seen it not for a while, but I mean there's a you know, it just shows you the kind of daredevil nature he had even then doing some of the life. And if I'm not mistaken, didn't he follow that with an omen film?

Roland 17:50

Yeah, so I think pretty much the same the same year. Same year, right?

James 17:55

Yeah, Omen 3, my Yeah, that's the final conflict, yeah. Yes, yes, which probably wasn't the final conflict in the end. But uh but yes, yeah, so he was sort of even then, I suppose, gearing up for a semi-Hollywood career, perhaps he didn't quite mutate in the way he thought. But again, you know, you you star in an omen, albeit a third movie in a franchise, you're sort of at least being noticed by Hollywood at that point.

Roland 18:21

I think he had a lot of help from James Mason. So reading his book, James Mason seems to have given him a call after he was in My Brilliant Career, which is 79, and loved the film and said, Right, I think you need to be a bigger star than you currently are. I'll come over to London and I'll get you involved in some in in in some projects. Which which I think he did, and he ended up starring with John Gilgird, I think in a few films. And so he had that he he obviously touched people in a way where they took a shine to him, to his sort of humbleness around acting that allowed him to just be in work consistently. Like somebody who like an actor is not not all actors have that ability to just make two or three films a year for your entire career, and he seemed to manage that.

James 19:18

Yeah, that's that's very true. I can't think of a period where we didn't have I mean well, I guess we'll now start moving forward through his CV, but so we can we can check. But yeah, you're right. I think it he always felt like he evolved from you know whether he's in his 30s and 40s as in a kind of lead to maybe doing more character work later on, but always working with interesting directors as well. And yeah, very, very consistent, that's very true.

Roland 19:44

Yeah, I think so. The next one, sort of after possession, which is 81, then you start throughout the 80s, it seems to be I mean, he he does a film, film or two films a year through 82 all the way down to 89, where he does three films, including a French film. But the biggest one from 89, I suppose, is Dead Calm.

James 20:08

Yes, that was his. I guess was that you I suppose you you wouldn't really call it a breakout film for him because he has he had been in the open film, like we were saying. Yeah, um but it was the one that well it int intro well, if not introduced the world to Nicole Kidman, because she'd have been in stuff before, that was the one where people took no real took notice of her as the film that brought her to Holocaust. And I suppose not dissimilar for Neil, really. And maybe it's also Billy Zane as well, isn't it? So it is, yeah. Yeah, so you know, and okay, it took a little longer for him, but you know, he uh yeah, it was a great it was a real breakout movie for those, you know, in terms of bringing Australian or American studies into the new Hollywood kind of frame at the time. Yeah, again, that's a film I haven't seen throughout forever.

Roland 20:55

I saw it so I saw it last year for the first time, just based on your book when reading it, because I he mentions in that that that's what Spielberg watched, and he saw that and he thought, right, yes, he can play Alan Grant in Jurassic Park. So whatever I was trying to think of what the connections would be in that film, and I suppose he's he's almost wordless through it because he's separated from Nicole Kidman for most of the film, and he's having to try and save himself from a a a boat that's being wrecked and sinking and trying to unravel the mystery, but he has nobody to bounce off of. It's literally him just in boiler rooms filling up with water. So there's sort of the action hero, but he's just an ordinary man flung into extreme circumstances.

James 21:44

Which which obviously completely taps into the Grant character, at least to some degree. We know Grant's very capable in certain fields, of course, but yeah, he's not he's not meant to be an action hero. He never thought he'd be facing what he faces. So yeah, I'm sure you can see totally why he's Gilbert would have seen that and been drawn to at least, you know, meeting Neil and thinking about casting Hall's Grant. Yeah, it's definitely one of those kind of uh as I say, kind of breakout moments really for him.

Roland 22:14

And there's and then the follows that up with The Hunt for Red October.

James 22:17

Yes. God, this is like going back through films I saw in the 90s that I never bothered to revisit.

Roland 22:25

But uh I remember watching that on VHS quite a lot because I always was interested by the shot where you zoom in and they are they they're talking Russian and then they zoom in and then they come back and they're all talking in their own accents, and you've got Sean Connery just doing Sean Connery. But Sam Neal in his autobiography said, I can't be a Russian submarine person with a New Zealand accent, so I'm going to do the accent.

James 22:52

Nice, nice. That's very good. Well, that again shows his range, doesn't it? But we're now basically heading where you mentioned, I mean what a what a year though for him, the piano, which, yes, as you say, not the biggest of roles, but the piano and Jurassic Park in the same year. I mean strangely, not not not comparing the two films, but the same for Spielberg doing Jurassic Park and Shinder's List, you know, two vastly different films, which just shows you what both men were capable of. Arguably sort of, well, possibly the peak for Spielberg's career on some level, I'd think being able to produce those two films in one year. And neither and Neil Neil, maybe not the peak of Neil's career, but definitely an extraordinary high point.

Roland 23:35

It was interesting reading his book. Have you read his book? I haven't, no. No, it it is it's well worth a a a read, and I've I've listened to bits as well on the on his audiobook, which is read by him, which is quite a nice experience. I think he thought that Jurassic Park was setting him up for a big career as an action hero. And he's he sort of says that Jurassic Park did so much for lots and lots of people, but he said it doesn't really have a huge

After Jurassic Park What Next

Roland 24:00

impact on his career going forward. It was just a massive film in his career.

James 24:07

Yeah, you can actually see that by what follows. I mean, you mentioned Mouth and Madness, that's obviously an interesting collaboration because it's carpenter, but then yeah, I mean, kind of films uh to be honest, some I don't even know, the Snow White Tale of Terror, for example, or uh I mean Event Horizon, I remember that, but I don't think he was in a particularly memorable role in that. You know, the Horse Whisperer classy Robert Redford drama, but again, he's hardly the focus in that. So yeah, it he didn't suddenly elevate to that. I mean, I think at the time you have to remember, I suppose you had you still had Schwarzenegger and Stallone around. You had Nick Cage coming into his core as kind of and Travolta as well, doing things like face off. There just probably wasn't room to Sam Neil for and for for what would be a slightly more sensitive action hero. Maybe that's just that Hollywood wasn't ready for that at that moment. He worked for Jurassic Park, but then he's not meant to be really an action hero. He's just sort of a reluctant hero, I suppose, at best.

Roland 25:13

Yeah.

James 25:14

But yeah, it didn't quite yeah, it didn't quite work for him in those following years.

Roland 25:18

No. It was interesting in again an interview in your book with uh Chris Pratt, and Pratt says that during the scene when the Giga arrives, Sam Neil turned to him and said, How would you suggest I stand? I want to look like a I want to have a hero's stance in in this moment. And so he sort of because he said that in Sam Neil's book, he said talking to Chris Pratt, and Chris Pratt had sort of built his career all around being a hero. That's what he wants to be in his film. So he wants to be that action star. And Sam Neill is like, I never even thought that that was something that you could do.

James 25:57

Yeah, but I I think someone like Chris Pratt, although he did obviously get his star in you know things like parks and recreation, so you know he did have a kind of comedy background. But you know, and that does feed into his kind of action star persona, but Pratt has effectively come of age in that action blockbuster era, whereas when Neil was probably Pratt's age when you know Pratt was doing the first Guardians of the Galaxy or something like that, I imagine you know the blockbuster era just didn't exist in the at least not in the capacity it does now, you know. So it you know, he was always going to be much more of a well, as we've said before, a character actor movie. And that's what he has always been. I think him becoming an action star, yeah, it just the timing wasn't quite right. Maybe later on, you know, you've seen the likes of Liam Neeson or Bob Odenkirk even just doing those kind of late career action movies. So maybe it could have happened to him if he if he had been in a different era for him. But yeah, it was never quite his thing though, I don't think. And I'm glad because I think it kept weren't more interesting anyway.

Roland 27:05

Yeah, that's right. Because he did screen tests for Bond as well. Which Bond did he screen test for? So it was when it was after Roger Moore. So the Tibi Doctor. Yeah. And his screen test is available to watch on on YouTube.

James 27:22

He would have been quite well, he he could have done that, I suppose, at that age. So whether he'd have been quite right for it, I don't think he probably was.

Roland 27:30

But I think he said so in his book he says that he wasn't he's very glad that he wasn't cast as as Bond as he thought that it was a bad idea to start with, and he just thought, I can't do it I don't want to do it badly, because you don't want to be a bad Bond.

James 27:45

Agree. Oh, absolutely. Yes, because that's always gonna be a marker on your a blessing marker on your career, certainly. So I suppose that's when we get to now we're in sort of early 2000s, really, suppose. Something like that's where, as I mentioned, the dish.

Alan Grant Returns In Jurassic Park III

James 28:00

And then you get to to JP3. And I I'm curious what you think of him in JP3, bringing that character back back into existence.

Roland 28:11

I think he's really I really enjoy his performance in JP3. You know, it is one of my it's my second favourite Jurassic after the original, and it's because of Alan Grant that it is my I I just enjoy him more as this grumpy scientist who's thrown into these situations, and I think the fact that he's with the family rather than fellow scientists and people who he can, you know, bounce ideas off and things, he's just with your general person on the street and just trying to keep these people alive and himself alive, and I think he leans into that comedy that Sam Neil can do quite well, that that wryness, that dry sense of humour, that s slightly eye-rolly kind of why am I back here again? And I think given the script by that was, you know, a script that was tinkered with by uh Alexander Payne and Jim Taylor, I think I'd have loved to have seen him in a full Alexander Payne film. I think I think a bit like he is with Taika Waititi a bit later with the Hunt for the Wilder people, I think that could have been a really good trajectory for him after JP3.

James 29:27

Yeah, I mean the the the lost Jim Taylor, Alexander Payne, Sam Neill project, so to speak, would have been lovely, wouldn't it? Like a proper full-on experience. And he would have been ideal, sort of. I guess we just have to to take solace that he clearly spoke some of their words at some point. Yes. You know, were in that in the process of making that film. But yeah, you're right. I mean, obviously, it is a bit the whole premise of oh no, here we go again, uh back on another island of dinosaurs, is obviously ridiculous in itself. But that because there was always these um was it rumours for the the lost world with a sort of an Alan Grant scene or something like that. Oh, right. I think so. I may be misremembering that now, but I sort of I'm I don't I I I don't think there was any truth to the truth to it. But uh you kind of think, yeah, but maybe it was good he sat that one out. Yeah. Let everyone have Ian Malcolm for that film and then come back. And yeah, it it's I don't think do you feel he's different from the first Jurassic Park as as in terms of characterisation?

Roland 30:33

Maybe a tiny bit, but I think he's I I think he feels closer to his original character than Jeff Goldblum does between Jurassic Park 1 and Jurassic Part 2, funnily enough. I feel like he's more leaning into the wink and grin at the audience stuff Jeff Goldblum is in in Dras in The Lost World, rather than Sam New, who because of the comedy inherent in that script, it allows him to just push those boundaries just a little bit more than it feels Jeff Goldblum can in The Lost World.

James 31:08

Of course, we do have to go through the uh the nightmare sequence in uh Jurassic Park.

Roland 31:14

Yes. Yeah. Which is I mean, there's the only problem with that that I have is there's multiple problems. The main one, just from a point of view of who Alan Grant is at that point, why couldn't they have got a raptor that actually looked like the raptor that he'd seen in Jurassic Park? Because the ones that we see is the ones so that's our first introduction to these new raptors. And you know, as a child I knew that they were different, and I still know, I'm like, well, why is he seeing the raptor that he hasn't seen yet?

James 31:46

He said a vision of the future, that's what I'm gonna say. No, I know. But you know, it even even perhaps that that wouldn't be included in a Sam Neil showreel but sequence, but uh, you know, even he can he just about styles it out, I think, given that the the skills he has. Um but I I did like him in Jurassic Art 3. I mean I it's it's one of those uh you know I certainly wouldn't call it a run to the litter because it's not. I think it's got some terrific sequences in it, but it sometimes gets a kick, well, at least until Dominion came on came along. It was it was the one that got a kicking. Um but now I think there is well, was it 25 years on, isn't it?

Roland 32:25

25 years on this this year, yeah.

James 32:27

This yeah. So I think there is a sort of renewed appreciation for I think so.

Roland 32:30

And of course the sort of practical nature of the films, well, yeah, you know, and it's not easy making those films practical. No, it and I think it just builds upon the work that had gone in the previous two films. I think kind of stylistically, in terms of the integration between the practical and the CGI, I think that's probably the pinnacle of it because the amount of VFX shots that are actually also with spliced in the Stan Winston's amazing animatronics, that film has got so much going for it technically. Even if and to do all that without a script is just you just just mind-boggling that it actually turned out as good as it did.

James 33:13

Very true, very true. But yeah, no, it was great to see him back anyway on that one. Yeah, it kind of clo it it it closed off that trilogy very nicely. I didn't have giving him.

Roland 33:22

I think so, yeah. Trying to think of what else is for things like Wimbledon, I remember that rom com. I think I went to the cinema to see that with Paul Bettany, Kirsten Dunst.

James 33:35

You've got Yes, The Witches Just Before That, which is a s quite a strange Sally Potter uh film, very, very arthouse who says. So that's interesting that he did that. I did that that had a lot of people kind of involved in small parts. Yeah, it's just sort of um a strange period in his career. That I mean uh we then not too much later get to Dean Spanley, which I mentioned earlier. But yeah, uh at this point he's just looking around for interesting things to do, I guess.

Roland 34:05

Yeah, and I think interesting people to work with. I think that's sort of what he you know, what what what he enjoyed what he enjoyed doing as well.

James 34:14

Yeah, I mean there there were y you know, going through it, there's quite a lot of stuff that I'll be honest, like I don't really know or or don't particularly remember. But then you mentioned one earlier, Hunt to the Wilder People, which is one of the great, if not the greatest, Taika Watiti films. It's just an absolute masterpiece, basically. And he is very instrumental in that. Yeah. Um I mean, for anyone who hasn't seen it, it's he's a sort of curmudgeonly character whose wife adopts this sort of tearaway kid in New Zealand, and then shall we spoiler alone here, she she's it happens quite early, she dies, and then he's left sort of uh looking after this kid. And it's just that they're they're sort of the chemistry between those two is just fantastic. Um I mean I I'd have to go through the rest of his career up to up to date, but to me it feels like the last great masterpiece that he sort of made, which might yeah, I'm selling it, but I think it's just a little bit more.

Roland 35:18

Oh, it is, yeah, I think, and that's that's ten years this year, 2016 it was.

James 35:23

It is, yeah, yeah.

Roland 35:24

And I I just remember that sort of him playing on those same roles that is in that Jurassic Park 3 moments with written by Alexander Payne and Jim Taylor, that's that kind of extended out. I think that's probably the closest that we get to Sam Neil playing that sort of that sort of indie comedy that that was so big in the early 2000s, late 90s, and then Taika Waititi comes in with his sensitivities and uh I don't know, like wild flair and just adds that on top of on top for the Hunt for the Builder people.

Late Career Comedy Cameos Farming

James 36:00

Yeah, no, completely. It's uh I I don't always think Taika Waititi scores some for me, some are misses, but I think that one was a complete hit and it was just sort of it was perfectly tailored to Anneil at that point in his career, really. Yeah, it's yeah, it's a I hope that's as probably I hop I think that might be even being re-released actually. It is, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's 10th anniversary. Um go and see it as well, so you haven't seen.

Roland 36:28

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And then we sort of go through a few uh other bits. I remember him popping up obviously in Saul Ragnarok. He's got a cameo role as a thespian playing Odin in one of the scenes as again directed by Taika Waititi. It's quite a funny little cameo from him and very much tongue-in-cheek. I didn't say I always I've always wanted to see Rams, which is 2020. I don't think it got a particularly good response, but I thought uh it's it's it's something that's like reading his book, him being a farmer seems as interest you know, interesting to himself as being an actor. They both run side by side. He was he grew up on a farm. He saw himself as a farmer as much as he did an actor, I think. He wasn't precious about himself in any way.

James 37:18

No, no, very, very connected to the land, obviously. So yeah. I I don't think I've seen Rams either, but I'm aware of the film. I'm aware of what it is, but yeah, I think that might be an interesting one if you're looking to go deeper into Neil's kind of back catalogue, that might be one to to put on the list.

Roland 37:36

Yeah. And then of course we get to Dominion, which 2022 filmed mainly, which is now, you know, he's so he was in the biggest film of all time, which was Jurassic, still one of the biggest films of all time. And Jurassic World Dominion is the most expensive film of all time. It's just it was announced this year. I did not know that, actually. No, no, no.

James 37:58

Because of COVID. Ah, we've got all the um uh extra that to pay out. So well, yeah. That that that that that film, as they they repeatedly told me in the production, you know, that did set the template for how Hollywood productions dealt with COVID. Yeah. You know, it's uh quite an interesting lab experiment, if you could say. I mean they did it you know sublimely, really. But yeah, it's it, I mean obviously his uh you know it's hard, you know. I think at the time there was excitement with not just him, of course, but the return of well we'd obviously seen Malcolm in Fallen Kingdom, but you know, we were getting back Ellie Sattler as well. So, you know, it's the it was the the three originals reunited and there was a lot of excitement, I guess. And then there wasn't Tissidas when the film came out, but you know, and I you know I I'm still a little shocked, I'll be honest, by the reviews for Dominion, because I really didn't I mean I I knew the story in advance, but because that was exactly when I was writing that particular yeah, ultimate visual history book, the Jurassic World One, so they let me read the script in advance, but so there were no surprises for me in that way, but I I thought it was reasonably well executed as a film, so I'm I'm just a little shocked as to how many people had a go at it, but then again it it proved you know ex extremely popular at the box subs and partly I think that was the reunion of those three. I I I don't think it was the most successful reunion if I reflect on it now. It's all it's you know, it's great just to see all of them slip back into those roles. Yeah, you know, the the kind of chemistry between them was easygoing and just there. They didn't have to try to your heart. I I en yeah, I enjoyed his return. Did you?

Roland 39:44

Yeah, I think I think he feels a little bit different to kind of I don't know, I I was I was just expecting a little bit more from the meshing of the two groups a little bit earlier because it's it feels like two films that are trying to compete for your attention, really. And uh I think Sam Neal even gets a call from in he talks about getting a call from Colin Trevaro just telling him, Oh, I'm I'm currently editing the fan edit for Dominion and you'll be pleased that there's much more Alan Grant in it. And he said, Oh well, I thought there was quite enough of me already. I think he enjoyed coming back, and he certainly enjoyed fans coming up and talking to him about Alan Grant, but I think he he he played all of that off. He he wasn't interested in just being that one character, I think.

James 40:36

No, I supp I suppose it was it was nice that he and the others agreed to come back and it it wraps the series up. I know we now have a you know a seventh a seventh one, but it wraps that Jurassic Park, Jurassic World sex tet, is that's what you want to call it up quite nicely, bringing those three back. It wasn't the best plot line ever. It it's it is just enjoyable seeing in in that role, you know. Yeah, you know, the moment where he and Sattler meet, it's kind of on a dig, isn't it? And sort of uh just in a tent, if I remember right. Yeah, fairly straightforward and simple, and you think, oh yeah, I remember this. This is nice. Yeah.

Roland 41:13

Yeah, I think uh they're they're the sort of they're the real heart of that film, I think. I think slowly I think slowly Chris Pratt disappears throughout those films. You know, he starts with a really quite strong character and then he just becomes your generic action star by the end. But Neil and Dern and Goldblum, I suppose because you're just looking at Sam Neil's filmography, he hasn't had he doesn't have that ego coming into this performance at all. And he doesn't at any point give across the ego that he is in Harrison Ford or whatever.

James 41:46

Yeah, and and let's face it, if Goldblum had appeared in as he does in in Fallen Kingdom, and then Dominion for some reason hadn't brought Lura Dern and Sam Neil back, you'd have always been left wondering, well, why didn't what's happened to those two? Whereas it it does give us some sort of closure on that story, I think bringing in.

Roland 42:06

And I like the last scene that we have of both uh Sam Neil and Lura Dern in that where they're sort of prepping themselves to go and give evidence. That's quite I just I'd have wanted more of that sort of thing. You know, I know it's a big dinosaur action film, but you know, just let's focus on some people for a minute.

James 42:24

I think there was a little more of them together. I remember the story, I can't remember if this is in the book. Sorry, my memory's terrible for these things, but about a ring that was designed. Do you remember that story? Yeah.

Roland 42:37

Well, no, I I know I know that that she wears a sort of amber ring throughout.

James 42:42

I think there was a scene where he gives it to her or something like that. And because I remember that someone told me about the desired uh how the ring got designed and where it got designed and all that stuff. So you know, it's okay, it's still a small moment, but it would have been a sort of another slightly more touching I'm sure they could be filmed it and it just perhaps hasn't come out yet, and maybe it will be released one day on uh some sort of um bonus file somewhere.

Dominion Reunions And Fan Expectations

Roland 43:10

What what was your impression when you've went when you interviewed Sam Neil and these I mean what what what what's it like going onto a set and filming and interviewing these these?

James 43:19

Well, it that to be honest, I I don't really have a lot of recollections of that particular encounter. But you know, going on a set store is difficult because they are working and you often don't get very long and you often don't know how long you're gonna get and they can suddenly get pulled away, which is obviously, you know, as it should be because they're working. So it's not great. But you know, when you when you have time, you know, the the best one, as I mentioned, was doing in for the book, because I had I don't know what it was now, but it feels like an hour or something on on the phone with him. And, you know, then you've got time to have a proper conversation. You know, often these interviews are very strictly timed and uh you don't have a huge amount of, you know, uh time with them. But so yeah, yeah I I I I think I found him a little bit more reserved in those more press related encounters, let's say. And then you know, when I had a proper conversation with him, uh, you know, all things Jurassic, that was great, you know, and he and he as I said, he was very generous with his time and you know, and I think you you you got through a little more to the the right the the the Sam Neil that actually is, if you see what I mean. Once you get a little a little time to know him.

Roland 44:26

Aside from Jurassic, is there three films that you would suggest someone as sort of definitive Neil projects that they should seek out?

James 44:36

Well, you mentioned my brilliant career, that probably would be one that, well, again, possession would be interesting for people to seek out, I think. We mentioned Hunt for the Wilder people, definitely, if people haven't seen that, but that is much more recent. I think you also touched on The Mouth of Landers. You've inspired me to go back and seek that one out.

Roland 44:58

It's a wild ride. Yeah. But I think I think it's both because he did memoirs of an invisible man before with Carpenter. Have you seen that?

James 45:08

Well, that's in my mid mid-90s, Carpenter is very patchy.

Roland 45:11

Well, yes, it I mean, it's a bit hit and miss, but those Memoirs of an Invisible Man has got Chevy Chase, and it's sort of this but Chevy Chase didn't want to be funny in it, and Carpenter, you know, said, Well, you're a comedian, that's sort of why you're in this film. Wanted to do something a little bit more dramatic. Chevy Chase is, by all accounts, one of the most difficult people to work with, and I think Sam Neil managed to kind of keep that all together. Throughout throughout the book, he's talking about sort of difficult interactions he had on set, and he was always just trying to, you know, people he said come with all sorts of baggage to a film set. He said he worked with William Hurt, who was coming off alcohol at the time, and he said could talk the hind legs of a donkey, but it was never uplifting conversation. So he would always have to try and come into set, try and build people up. And he said, yeah, dealing with Harvey Keitel during the piano, he said he was an absolute nightmare to work with, because he was just very combative against anything anybody suggested for the scenes and would just go off on his own thing. And obviously, having to deal with Chevy Chase, I think probably Sam Neil was somebody to lean on for John Carpenter when he needed a moment of just like, oh, let's just have a chat about something that isn't this film. And I think that's why then In the Mouth of Madness is the better film because of their strength of the relationship they built on Memoirs of Invisible Man.

James 46:40

So there you go, that's three who chose one. Yeah. Although maybe four would be cheese from Had 4, I think we did.

Roland 46:46

I think I'd probably throw in Event Horizon as well. There is a better version that is hidden out there, supposedly in the vaults, that was never released because it was far too gory for audiences at the time. But yeah, I think again that's Sam Neil going turning it up to eleven a little bit, particularly towards the end. And it's nice getting to s to see him do that. For people who've only seen him in Jurassic Park, where he's quite reserved a lot of the time. It's then nice to see him throw the shackles off and just just maybe chew a bit of scenery for a bit.

James 47:22

So how how are you feeling, by the way, about potential further Jurassic instalments?

Roland 47:27

I was quite hopeful that I mean I so I messaged you, didn't I, about doing rebirth announcement episode a very long time ago, because I anticipated that we would be in a position where the eighth instalment had been announced by now, and it seemingly was going to be, but lots of things have happened behind the scenes that I'm not quite sure about that means that we are still at the at the place where nobody is confirmed, the film isn't confirmed. I don't know I like the fact that the only kind of tie that Rebirth has to the original six films really is that mention of Alan Graham. He is still that link between all of those films. I think you know, people think of Jeff Goldblum, obviously, when they think of Jurassic Park, I think he's easily somebody that you can grab onto and to John Hammond. But actually the heart and the thread of all of it is is Alan Graham.

James 48:23

Although I wouldn't put it past Jeff Goldblum to make a cameo in number eight, it's uh I think I yeah, I think he will.

Roland 48:31

I think because of his connections to Jonathan Bailey, if Jonathan Bailey and Scarlett Johansson come back, they've Scarlett Johansson was on his last album. So I think there's so much that a quick phone call, quick WhatsApp, and I think he'll be in a in a s on on a stand stage very quickly, I imagine.

James 48:52

Jeff wouldn't resist that.

Roland 48:53

No. What's what's he like to interview?

James 48:57

Greg, I remember I could tell you, I do remember the first time I ever interviewed him was on the set of Idbe Goes Down, which was early 2000s, uh indie movie, uh filmed in New York. There's one of the Colkins in the lead. I think it I think it's Kieran. That's one the one who went on to succession. Obviously, win the Ottawa. But I think it's Kieran, but I do check that. But yeah, I remember the publisher saying, Oh, Jeff loves the press, and like you never hear that. And sure enough, he was absolutely utterly charming, not just to me, but the the fellow Germanists that I was with, and so yeah, just you know, he's just but yeah, he he that he has that Jeff Goldblum-ness about him that that that you you see more amplified in the movies, but uh yeah, he's yeah, he's kind of a bit of a one-off, really.

Roland 49:53

Yeah. I I I went to one of his shows in London, quite small, it's when his first I just suddenly ended up at it, I didn't have tickets, and then somebody gave me tickets and just had to leave work early and get on a train, and suddenly I was in front of Jeff Goldblum, quite a small audience in London. And during the interval when the band left the stage, he got into the audience, and I was meeting my and just started talking to everybody, signing things, and I went my girlfriend was meeting me in the interval because she couldn't leave work early, and I just met her in the foyer, and she was like, What's what's going on? I said, That's him. He's just wandering around the auditorium just talking to people. And so we sort of come in and he's there, kind of just in the middle of everybody, just chatting, and I just thought this feels it was yeah, so bizarre too.

James 50:41

Did you hold it? Did you hold it together while he was?

Roland 50:44

Yeah, I did. I've got the when I was when the book came out, I was kindly sent a Sam Neil signed card because he wasn't doing press, obviously, it was just after Covid, but it was also his treatment. But he still wanted to have that interaction with people, so he signed hundreds and hundreds of these cards and just sent them out randomly to shops to put into their books, and yeah, so that was really nice too.

James 51:14

That's my love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What what a nice memento.

Roland 51:19

Yeah, yeah, it is, yeah. Well, I'd just like to say thank you so much for joining me today, James. It's been really great just to it's a sad occasion to actually, you know, to be to to do it, but it's nice to be able to celebrate somebody like Sam Neil, I think. And uh the outpouring of love that came online after his passing, all of his winery was you know, they ran out of stock within 24 hours of of the news. So there is so much love for Sam Neal.

James 51:45

He was one of the good ones, you could say.

Roland 51:47

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I was wondering where people can find you online if indeed you want them to.

James 51:56

They can try my Instagram, which is Motrum101. I don't post a great deal though, it must be said. And yeah, I'm not really big on Twitter or anything, so I'm not I'm not great. Just go to my Amazon page. There you go. You can look you can look at the books.

Roland 52:12

Links below in the show notes for all of James's book, including the new Odyssey book.

James 52:16

Thank you.

Roland 52:17

Which is which is fab.

James 52:18

That is much appreciated. Yeah, there you are. The I I like people to disc discover what I write rather than shout about it, but I'm just I'm fashioned that way. Thank you very much for joining me today. Thank you. Well thank you for having me, and I hope we get to do this again at some point.

Roland 52:34

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, well, Rebirth 2. We're we're we're waiting on it and we're ready.

James 52:39

Very much so. Looking

Support The Show Listener Tribute Next

James 52:40

forward to it.

Roland 52:44

My huge thanks to James Motram for that conversation. And I will be following up by looking at all of those five films that we talked about and reviewing them for the subscribers of this podcast. You can support this show, and the best way to do that is by hitting support the show link at the bottom of the show notes. Also in the show notes, you'll find links to James's books, including his new book, all to do with the story of making Christopher Nolan's Deodyssey. Before I go, I just wanted to read this message out I got from Isaac. So on the end of last episode, I put out a message about sending me your thoughts of Sam Neil, and Isaac got in touch, and he said, For me, he absolutely sparked some of my earliest interest in paleontology and science more generally, which helped to inspire my applied field research career, albeit in human health. Thank you so much, Isaac, for that message. He he, as I said in my last episode, it was so touching and so moving at Dino Con when they put up the celebrating Sam Neil message, and Darren's mention of Sam Neil was to let the sadness go and just celebrate him. And so that's what I hope we can take forward from this very sad moment and just know that he made a difference, even if that was just bringing you joy in the films that he made. That's that's really no small thing. Next time on the show, I'm bringing you my conversation with Eddie Diemont. And it is all about the birth really of cryptozoology and it and its ties to Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World. Now it is a sprawling conversation with many of the dark areas of the web tapped into, and our relationship to science and science education. And among other things, we touch on cryptids, living dinosaurs in Africa, David Icke and his obsession with Jurassic Park, and also maybe why people are getting their science education via podcasts.

Eddie 55:44

Again, a lot of times Fawcett is seen as you know a uh equivalent of either like no Professor Challenger or uh uh Lord Roxton as those characters. And I think even if it's not a one-on-one, there's definitely some DNA going in there too.

Roland 55:58

Now, for that episode, I'd really love to hear your favourite cryptozoology story, your favourite priptid. Mine is The Mothman, by the way. Always been obsessed with Mothman since that Richard Gere film, which I will defend until the end of time. So send me your messages, send me your voicemails, clicking the link in the show notes for every single episode. If there's corrections, if you want to send me your favourite dinosaurs, please do. But until next time, I'll just say thank you very, very much for listening. And let's please hope that the pirates don't eat the tourists.