Stephen Vogt | Major League Manager, Cleveland Guardians | "Leaders don't get bad days."

In this episode of the Win More, Live Better Podcast, Zach sits down with Stephen Vogt, manager of the Cleveland Guardians and a former 10-year Major League Baseball veteran and two-time MLB All-Star.

Originally drafted by the Tampa Bay Rays in 2007, Vogt spent years grinding through the minor leagues before making his big league debut in 2012. Over the next decade, he built a reputation as one of the most respected catchers in the game known not only for his performance, but for his leadership inside the clubhouse.

During his playing career, Vogt suited up for several organizations including the Rays, Athletics, Brewers, Giants, Diamondbacks, and Braves. Not long after hanging up his cleats, Vogt transitioned into coaching, joining the Seattle Mariners staff in 2023 as a bullpen and quality control coach. In November of 2023, he was named the 45th manager in Cleveland Guardians franchise history, becoming one of the youngest managers in Major League Baseball.

Here's some notable highlights from our conversation:
[5:53] — When Stephen Knew He'd Coach

[8:51] — Leadership Behind the Plate

[12:03] — Failure, Empathy, and Perspective

[16:49] — Transition from Player to Manager

[21:00] — The Emotional Weight of Coaching

[23:36] — Building Your Own Leadership Style

[26:14] — Self-Doubt and The Inner Critic

[30:30] — Three Non-Negotiables for the Team Culture

[35:06] — Warning Signs for Culture Drift

[39:29] — Creating Space for Truth-Telling

[44:01] — Building the Right Staff

[47:36] — The Power of Curiosity

[52:17] — Deleting Social Media to Protect Your Mind

[54:08] — Win Today

[55:48] — Learn the Lesson, Leave the Event

[58:29] — Support Behind the Scenes

[59:40] — Being Present as a Father

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

That idea of imposter syndrome, it's all about when you start to hear those lies creep into your head. Hey, you're you don't know what you're doing, you have no idea that was dumb, you're an idiot. Like you can buy those lies. And if you buy those lies, I promise you it's gonna continue to get negative. But I think that's where the awareness of the way you're talking to yourself in your head. Um that's one of my strengths, is the awareness of my thoughts. I've worked extremely hard at being aware and I'll catch a negative thought and I'll be like, Whoa, where'd that come from? Why what's true about that? Yeah, that's not true, move on from it. And that's my process is I always ask the question of what's true. Because we can buy our we can make up some unbelievable lies in our head that'll take us down a negative path, but if you don't nip it in the bud right away, it can spiral into a 24 to 48 hour just absolute crush fest on yourself.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Welcome back to another episode of the Win More Live Better Podcast. Now, when I invite a guest onto this show, it's not just because of what they've accomplished as a leader or as a performer, it's also because of who they are as a human being and how that shapes how they lead. And today's guest is someone that I've had the rare privilege of seeing that up close during my time at Major League Baseball. Today I'm going to be joined by Steven Boat. He's the manager of the Cleveland Guardians. Steven is a 10-year Major League veteran, a two-time MLB All-Star, a World Series champion, and now one of the most respected young leaders in professional sports. And after wrapping up his playing career in 2022, he moved into coaching with the Seattle Mariners in 2023 before being hired as Cleveland's manager, and he's already made a remarkable impact, helping lead the Guardians to division titles and earning American League Manager of the Year honors in each of his first two seasons. But I think this conversation goes far beyond just his resume and the results that he's produced as a performer, as well as as a leader. If you're a coach, manager, or leader who's trying to lead people well without losing yourself, I think this conversation could be for you. If you've ever wrestled with self-doubt, imposter syndrome, or the pressure that comes with making hard decisions while others are affected by them, I think you can gain something from this conversation. If you're interested in building a culture rooted in truth, preparation, joy, and genuine care for people, I encourage you to stick around because I think there's going to be something for you in this conversation. And finally, if you've ever wondered what it really looks like to transition from being responsible for your own performance to carrying the weight of an entire team, staff, and clubhouse, then I think Steven gives an incredibly honest window into that reality. Now in this episode, we dive into questions like how did a career filled with setbacks, transitions, and perspective shape the kind of leader that he is today? What has catching taught him about servant leadership? How does he handle the inner critic when doubt creeps in? What are some of his non-negotiables that he wants to protect in the culture for the Cleveland Guardians? And how does he think about things like truth-telling, feedback, and the emotional responsibility of leading people through a long season? There's a lot in this one for baseball people, for coaches, and really for anybody who I think cares about leadership, self-awareness, and helping others grow. And now, as always, I'm really grateful to those of you who've been joining me for these guest conversations. If this show has been meaningful to you, I'd greatly appreciate it if you rate, review, and subscribe. It's going to help more people find the podcast. It's also going to help us continue to bring more experts, coaches, and leaders who can help all of us win more and live better. So without further ado, I'm excited to bring you my conversation with Steven Bow. Welcome back to a new episode of the Win More, Live Better Podcast. And uh for those that have been tuning in from the beginning, you know that I'm trying to be really intentional to not only bring in some of I think the brightest minds in sport, in coaching, and leadership across different settings, but it's also really important to me that I bring in high-quality people, people whose values I think very much align uh with my own. And today's guest is extra special, not only because I think of the maybe some of the alignment that we have in terms of those values, but also uh this is a first for me getting the chance to to interview and have a conversation with somebody that I had a chance to to work with from his playing background. We kind of always knew, had in the back of our mind that eventually he was going to be uh in charge and leading in the dugout in a major league uh for a major league team. And so um I'm just more than anything really humbled and appreciative that uh today we're joined by Stephen Voat, the uh the manager for the Cleveland Guardians. So Stephen, I'm grateful that you take some time today for this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Yeah, no, thanks for having me, Zach. Obviously, been looking forward to this. Um appreciate our time together when I was playing and the continued, you know, bond and relationship we've had since. And uh yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

You know, I think with your career, there's though we could dive into the playing side of it, you know, we could dive into what's happening currently. I I kind of want to blend them for a moment because something that, you know, there were some you know articles and different sound bites that came out when you took the job and when you transitioned into coaching where you kind of had this, it almost is like there was a seed planted for you to eventually become um a major league manager. This was an idea that um started well before then. And so I I'd actually love to know at like at what point kind of in your baseball journey was the idea of becoming a major league manager maybe something that you wanted to to work towards. And then how did you also see that nurtured as your career evolved over time?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah, I I mean I think it starts, you know, 2009. Um, it was my third season in the minor leagues, and you know, uh unfortunately a shoulder injury occurred, and um I had a choice. I it was 10 days into the minor league season, and I was playing for our high A affiliate, Port Charlotte, Florida with the Tampa Bay Rays. And so when you get injured in the minor leagues, they kind of get you away from the team and you're rehabbing at the complex. Well, the complex was where our high A team was. Um, I just remember having a choice of well, I could just rehab and see if I can get back, or I can rehab and still be with the team in the dugout for home games. And so I had to ask a bunch of permissions and you know, give reassurances. Look, I'm not here to take away from the team, I'm here to learn, and I'm here to support people as they go through their seasons. And I think that year specifically got me really hungry to learn about the coaching aspect. Um, so maybe there wasn't managerial thoughts at that point. I mean, I was 24. Uh, but you know, you're 24, a senior sign, you kind of think, well, I'm just gonna be another one of the statistics of a guy who got hurt in the minor leagues and never made it. But um, in in diving into the coaching and really learning from my coaches there in high A, it started for me to develop kind of a coaching philosophy while I was still playing and kind of noticed some things about myself leadership-wise, and that I really was affecting my teammates just by being there and having conversations and really helped me propel the rest of my career, uh looking at it through not only a playing lens, but through a coaching lens and through development, and really helped me become the player I was by having that year to step back and not have the ability to play. It made me aware of a lot of the thoughts that I was having as a player, and as I'm talking to guys having conversations, uh really helped me develop my mental skills from there. But uh, as far as the managing goes, I'd say it was around 2015-2016 playing for the A's and Bob Melvin for a few years and started really thinking about in the nights I wasn't playing, thinking along with him, thinking along with the other manager maybe, and definitely something that I I thought one day I could do, and I'm very, very blessed to be doing that right now.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

I'm not just saying this because you're on here, but I mean, I would definitely put you in my Mount Rushmore of players that I was fortunate to be around during my time in Major League Baseball, because again, I think a lot of what you're describing, like the appreciation and perspective that you had, not just for the on-the-field technical side and the physical side, but really that leadership and the impact that you can have, particularly from like that catching position. Could you talk a little bit about that in particular and how either for yourself or for others that you've seen, how being a catcher has kind of helped shape the lens through which now that you see the game and and and you and you coach?

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Yeah, I I think it's it, you know, the way I always viewed it was in the way I was taught by my dad and every coach I ever had, is that when you're when you're a catcher, it's not about you. It's about the guy 60 feet away. And um, you have 13 very different personalities, very different people that um whether their skill set's different, whether their repertoire's different, but they're what makes them tick. Some guys you gotta go out and really jolt and get energized. Other guys you gotta calm down. Other people you gotta just they need to know that you know everything's gonna be okay. And so I think dealing with whatever the hundreds of pitchers that I caught over my career and lifetime, you really get to see a broad spectrum of people, and that idea of of being behind the plate, you are serving that person, you are suggesting the pitch they throw, you are navigating them through the game. And that inning, whether it's a 10-run game, I you know, whenever I get a chance to talk to young catchers, it's that inning is the most important inning of that person's career tonight. Doesn't matter the score, it doesn't matter the game state. They need 100% of you being fully engaged and know that you have their back and you've done your homework, you're prepared, and you're gonna do everything within your power to help them have success. And I think that aspect in itself, and the fact that you are a position player and you have to hit, you can kind of relate to every player on the roster. There's no one that you really are are in the dark about because you know how to talk to pitchers, you know how to talk to position players because you are one. And um, I think my catching experience has definitely led to a lot of the leadership qualities, but also the the servant leadership and the and the humbleness and and understanding that you have very little to do with the outcome of the game. Um yet you can make one suggestion that can that can go wrong and it could mean the outcome of the game. Um and we can unpack that statement for about five hours. So um I'll leave it at that. But um I definitely think that the servant, you know, aspect of the catching position really helps in in my current role.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

I was torn a little bit in prep for this because I was like, man, there's there's some writ there's some depth in there that I know that we've had previous conversations about of like the lens that you have on the mental side, which I wanted to save space for, but also uh again, um so much of this this show is is geared towards coaches and the leadership side, which I think there can be intertwined certainly. But what I what I'd actually wanted to do is I want to I jotted this down because this was a quote um after you accepted uh the role in Cleveland. And I think if I recall correctly, I think there was some iteration of this that I know you had shared um even as you during your time as a player, but you said I've been released, I've been traded, I've been the worst player in baseball, I've been one of the best players in baseball, I've been a prospect, I've been a nobody, you name it. And so no matter what, and so no matter who walks through the doors of that clubhouse, I feel like I know where they're at and I can relate to them. And I think that's a really powerful sentiment. And I was hoping maybe you could kind of expand just a little bit off of that and and just kind of where where that comes from and how you now see it show up.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Yeah. And I mean, I think when you're talking about just being human beings, right? We're a product of our experiences, we're a product of our um our belief set, we're a product of the things that we learned growing up, and until you learn, you're not gonna know. And you know, the best way to learn something is to to fall flat on your face, fail at it, and then pick up and and try again. And I think, you know, for me, I I I was DFA'd three times, I was released once, I was you know, I've been traded. I've like you said, I've been sent up and down from the minor leagues to the big leagues twelve or thirteen times, you know. So having sat through multiple of those meetings, having sat through those experiences and the mental toll that it takes on you, um you you learn more and more each time to the point where the last one you're like, okay, all right, I got it. Yeah. But you know, the first time you go through that failure of somebody telling you you're not good enough. And for a majority of people, especially at our level, at the big league level, I mean, even college, you you can you can name any level. Most people haven't failed yet. You know, when when you reach the level that you of your potential or wherever you are, wherever your feet are, not very many of those players have failed yet. And so when you go through failure the for the first time, I mean I was 28 years old, the first time any coach or any organization ever told me you weren't good enough. And I think through those learning lessons, it helps you have empathy for the player. Um there's no sympathy. There's no sympathy in sports, there's no sympathy in life, but there is empathy and understanding that I know this is a really difficult message for you to hear right now, but I'm gonna deliver it with full truth, and I'm not gonna hold back because that's what's gonna propel you to get better. Um, you know, and I think having those experiences really helps me relate. And granted, we have mostly a young team that's still trying to figure out whether or not they believe they belong in the big leagues. And you know, that's our job as coaches, is they're only gonna think they're as good as we think they are, right? Um is that the pygmalion effect, right? Um you know, so I think for me it's the belief that we instill in these guys as a coaching staff. It can't go get hits for them, it can't make the plays for them, but it can give them that sense of confidence that we know you can do this, and if only you could view yourself through the lens that we do. And I try to convey that every single day. And that comes from my experience and the good and bad meetings I've had with former managers that whether they were sending me to AAA, releasing me, um, cutting playing time, adding playing time, all of those experiences have helped me become, I think I'm a pretty good truth teller, and but I'm still working really hard at becoming a better truth teller.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

It's one of the greatest gifts that I think a leader can can share with somebody is that transfer of belief, the the belief of knowing kind of what they're capable of, and then showing that not just through words, but actions and how you pour into them. And and some of that too is just even through that empathy that you describe. Like you said, like, hey, I may not know exactly what you're going through, but I know what it feels like. And and that level of empathy is so powerful. The other quote that has come up for me, this is something I've shared on a previous um conversation, is somebody shared with me that you're most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. You're most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. Now, on one hand, that could be in the form of a role or a title, right? So, in essence, like you as a former player, you are very powerfully positioned to serve players because you have that experience. You know, kind of again what those feelings are like and what the the rhythms of the season. But the other side of it is like not just within a role, it's like you know what it's like to navigate, you know, imposter syndrome. You know what it's like to navigate being told not being good enough. And, you know, being told like, hey, this is something you've worked your entire life for, and you're trying to put food on the table for your family and this is your livelihood, and yet somebody's, you know, you don't have full control over that. And so anyway, I just I think those when you bottle all that up, it it certainly makes so much sense as to why you're so well positioned, I think, to have that empathy and impact that you you've had thus far. And I I'm interested in like, I think that for many, that transition from player to coach, there's a there can be some things that you can pull from and and keep with you. And there's certainly some things you probably have to like loosen your grip of as well and let go of. What have been some parts of your your the the player lens that you've had to maybe loosen your grip on as you've made the transition to to coaching?

SPEAKER_02 16:49

That's a tough question because I think, you know, given my path, you know, and and I don't I don't shy away from it. I'm super fortunate to have the path that I did. I mean that it happened way quicker than I, you know, maybe I wanted it to happen that quick, but it definitely happened quicker than I thought it would. But um, I don't think like a coach. I've I've never been a coach, right? I went straight from playing one year of coaching experience and straight into a managing job, and I've had to rely a lot on my player brain. And and I think what that's really positioned is for this specific job, like my job is to manage and coach the person. Right? We have extremely talented you know, coaches in our hitting department, defense, pitching, you name it. And I don't know how to coach those things. Could do I have some knowledge in those areas? 100%. But I've never been a you know, other than one year of catching coach and bullpen coach. I've it so for me I stay out of those arenas. I ask questions and I support our coaches, of course I do. I'm there as a thought partner and a resource, and yeah, if there's things that I see, that's my job, right? To ask questions. But for me, my job is to coach the holistic view of the player. And when you are a manager and you have positional coaches, that's something it's really hard sometimes because you want to step in and suggest something, but that's not gonna develop your coaches. You know, so for me, it I think that's part of like the player brain I had to let go was that it was all about me. What do I need to do today to get myself better so that I can go out and be a great teammate. So you lay awake at night, you get home from every game, you process how did today go? What do I need to do better tomorrow? Here's my job for tomorrow. Now I go to go home after the game, I think through 26 players, I think through 15 coaches, and I think through 20 staff members. So now you're you're talking about 50 people that are on running through your brain every night. And no matter how well things are going, you've got five to ten people that aren't aren't going well. So it really does, you have to put yourself completely out of the picture. And you have to find ways to fill yourself up differently than getting to go out and play the game you love. And that for me, that was one of the difficult transitions I had was realizing I'm not responsible for just me and then my teammates. I'm responsible for my teammates, for my fellow coaches, for my you know, I have to be a phenomenal teammate with not I I'm still you're not gonna reap any benefits from it. Because when it goes well, it's about the players, and when it goes poorly, it's about you. And that's that's what my job is right now. And so there's no like you don't get to go watch your work play out. You get to watch other people's work play out and be a support system for that. So I think for me, like that turning that player brain off, I I I did it relatively quickly, but that was very difficult for me at first.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Part of that, what you just described is something that I've heard other coaches, and it maybe isn't every coach's experience, but I think there's a difference between the weight of expectations that come, especially when you're at a very high level and there's pressures to produce results. But then there's also the weight of caring. You know, the weight of caring of like you mentioned, the 50 people or however many it is in that clubhouse who on a night-to-night basis is being influenced by not just the outcomes, but as you've touched on now a couple of times, like the human side of it. Like there are certainly things that are happening away from the field too that are being affected. Somebody I I almost differentiate the difference between like you caring, like as you care for the person versus like you're carrying what they're feeling. How do you, I guess, balance that and just like carry the responsibility for people, but also not let it become emotional exhaustion for you, um, given again, this is what you're probably gets keeping you up at night.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

I it you have to do intentional work on it. You know, I think, you know, I still have a a personal mental mental skills coach that I speak with once a week, and a lot of it I throw on him, right? Like we all need somebody to throw our I we call it stuff. You know, we we could probably think some other S words up to talk describe it, but um I want to take our players and coaches' stuff off of their plate. I can handle it. I've I've worked really hard to develop the skill to be able to handle somebody else's issues, find a solution to go get through the day, and if we have to do it all over again tomorrow or multiple times throughout the day, let's do it. But we all know that we perform at our best when we're free and clear in our heads. And so for me, it's the daily check ins with everyone. It's the hey, how's this going? And you're right. Like it's really easy to forget that the guys we watch on TV playing baseball are our husbands, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their sons, their um you know and And it's really easy to forget that. But at the end of the day, these are twenty-six human beings that are going out to play a kid's game and they're getting paid a lot of money to do it. So we're not looking for sympathy for them. But we've it's really easy to forget that these are human beings with real lives away from the field. And I play the role of dad sometimes, I play the role of brother sometimes, you know, and and I think those are the things that really matter at the end of the day. If we have 26 human beings that care for each other, that work hard and they're prepared to go out and play, we're gonna win games. We're we're going to. And I I really truly believe that the person comes first. And as soon as we lose sight as coaches, that it's not about as soon as one thought comes into your head that it's not about the person, you're gonna lose the team. You're gonna lose that that that edge. It is about developing the person through the game of baseball, not the other way around.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

For many, when they transition to coaching, it's it's easy to then go through the um the index of all the coaches that you've had as guides, not only the things that you've appreciated and you value, but also certainly the things like, okay, I don't want to do that, you know, or that just maybe isn't authentic for me. How has that process been for you kind of finding your own, I guess maybe I will call it like authentic voice as a leader, you know, without just copying and pasting everything that you've you've gathered over the course of time through all the mentors that you've had?

SPEAKER_02 23:36

I mean, I think I think we're we're all guilty of some copyright infringement, right? Um, you know, there's there's not one person on this planet that had this original thought, right? It's you get ideas from other people. And, you know, for me, I was so fortunate to play for you know seven different incredible managers and then work for one in Seattle and Scott Service, and you know, so that's eight great leaders that I had a chance to really observe. And they all did some things really well, and they all had weaknesses, just like I'm sure I've got a ton of weaknesses, I know I do. And you know, I think for me it was trying to take whatever their strengths were. I'm like, what did what did that person do at an elite level? And take that and go make it my own. Okay, what was that person's shortcomings and where can I get better from that? You know, it's the same thing for us as parents, right? Like, I want my sons to be better people than I am. I want my daughter to be better than my wife. I want them to be better human beings than my wife and I are, and that's how we're raising them. We're raising them to try and be better than us so that that's that's how we evolve as a as a you know, as a as a people. And so it's no different with coaching. It's taking the good and making it better, and taking maybe what wasn't quite as good and trying to get it a little bit better. And I can definitively say I learned both good and bad from every manager I ever played for. And I'm sure that the players and coaches that I'm I'm getting to lead right now, they're learning good and bad from me. And hopefully they end up being better off than I was, and and that's the goal. And so for me, it I couldn't be more thankful for the the men that I played for. Um, they're great men and they're great leaders, and I took a little bit from all of them.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

We talked earlier about, you know, again, some of those those feelings and emotions that are are so felt by players. But again, as coaches, that doesn't necessarily mean that we don't experience them in our own ways, or we have those, you know, narratives and and stories that we start to create and and we feed and and everything. I don't know necessarily that if you would use this particular word, but you know, we talked earlier about like the imposture syndrome, and and I'm I'm interested in almost knowing, like, hey, now that you're at this point in your career, you know, a few years into coaching, have there been points where that those feelings have creeped up, those thoughts have crept up for you? And what's kind of helped you respond to those, or what do you go to when it comes to when they show up?

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, I of course I have. Um you know, when you've never managed a game before in your life and all of a sudden you're managing big league games, um, it can be daunting. And whenever you make a decision and it doesn't work, you beat yourself up over it. I I'll never forget, we were in our fourth game of the of my managing career, and I put a play on that didn't work and it led to us losing the game. Is that why we lost the game? No. Is that you know you there's never one moment that wins or loses a game, right? There's been multiple moments that have led to that point. But from that one mistake, I tried to learn as much as I could from it. And understanding that just because you made a decision that didn't work doesn't mean it was wrong. And that imposter syndrome of I have to be perfect, I have to make every you know decision right, because especially as a head coach or as a manager or as whatever it might be, when you make a decision that works, you're a genius. When you make a decision that doesn't work, you have no idea what you're doing. And that's the perception, that's how it is conveyed to you, that's how it's you know received. Because at the end of the day, if you know your people and you know what they're capable of, and you put them into a position to succeed, that's all you can control. When you're putting guys into positions that's not setting them up for success, either something happened in the game earlier that made you do that, or you're not thinking the right way. And so for me, it's about the prep when I'm prepared, when I know our people, I know how they're feeling, I know what they're capable of, and I go out and put them into a position to succeed, then the game's gonna the game's gonna happen. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But that in that idea of imposter syndrome, it's all about when you start to hear those lies creep into your head. Hey, you're you don't know what you're doing, you have no idea that was dumb, you're an idiot. Like you can buy those lies. And if you buy those lies, I promise you it's gonna continue to get negative. But I think that's where the awareness of the way you're talking to yourself in your head. Um, that's one of my strengths, is the awareness of my thoughts. I've worked extremely hard at being aware, and I'll catch a negative thought and I'll be like, Whoa, where'd that come from? Why what's true about that? Yeah, that's not true, move on from it. And that's my process is I always ask the question of what's true. Because we can buy our we can make up some unbelievable lies in our head that'll take us down a negative path, but if you don't nip it in the bud right away, it can spiral into a 24 to 48 hour just absolute crush fest on yourself.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

There's so many different descriptions and and ways that people describe it. You know, I know some people talk about it's that inner critic that we have, but I think what I'm hearing in how you describe it is a there's a distinction between having an inner critic and inner coach, right? That inner coach is again not necessarily that you're going to eliminate the things that the inner critic says per se, but if you have awareness around it, then you can again ask yourself, is this something worth endorsing or worth buying into? Or am I creating something that either I've self-inflicted or maybe I've inherited a story or a lie from from somebody else? And the next thing you know, it feeds. And again, this is this is so valuable and relevant, not just for coaches and leaders, but um for players because, like, again, we're all human. That's the common thread amongst all that. And therefore, those are going to be always present for many of us. Um, I I want to kind of shift just for a moment now to like not just you as an individual, but now the environment that you're trying to create and trying to shape for those around you. And I think a lot of that though does is rooted in what's most important to you. What are some of the values that you feel like are the most maybe like non-negotiable for you, you know, as a leader, um, and and that you feel like you try to protect um in in the environment that you create?

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Uh you gotta have fun.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Like I know, I know that's such a generic, but if I'm in a bad mood, that's gonna give everyone a free pass to be in a bad mood. So the number one thing for me, non-negotiable, is I'm never gonna have a bad day. There there might be days where I'm listening to some heavy metal or something to get some anger out or to get, you know, doesn't matter because whatever my emotions are, whatever mood I'm in, the entire group's gonna take that mood on. And so for me, it's a choice. Every day I get out of my get out of my truck and I walk into the clubhouse and I make the decision. I say to myself, Mike, you're gonna have a good day. It's gonna be a good day. And so to me, it's non-negotiable. You gotta be having fun. And that's number one. Two, you gotta be prepared. Preparation, do your job. Um, you can put up all the signs you want in the clubhouse, you can have all the gimmicks, all the but you gotta be prepared. Uh, as long as you're doing your job, I don't care when it happens, I don't care how it happens, we just have to be prepared. And the other one for me is love your teammates. You know, I I I used to tell people all the time, um I used to feel more excited for my teammates when they hit a home run than when I did. And it wasn't this like conscious choice, but that to me, when you have true joy in someone else's success around you, that's what frees you up to go play and have fun. Because you're there to win a game. That's the goal. Yes, can you have a great year and put up big numbers and make a ton of money for your family? Yeah. But I promise you, if you show up and you have fun and you're prepared and you care about your teammates, you're gonna have a great year. But if you play because you want to be selfish and you all you care about is getting your numbers, and all you care about is this, that's gonna be a really lonely feeling because none of your teammates are gonna want to be around you because they sniff that out real quick. And so for me, the non-negotiables are have fun, be prepared, and love your teammates. And when one of those three isn't happening, that's when we talk. If we're if those three things are happening, you're probably not gonna talk to me a whole lot because I don't need to worry about you. I'm gonna check in with you. But those three things, if you we should all be having fun at work, and we should all have fun preparing, and we should all have fun cheering and rooting for our teammates. And our guys have done a great job of that, and we have some great clubhouse leadership that helps embody that as well.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

I love that sentiment that you described around, you know, we can kind of call it like vicarious joy, you know, finding joy in other people's successes and not just our own. And it it kind of reminds me of the notion of like it's hard to be down on yourself when you're busy picking others up around you, you know, which I think is super like sometimes it's one of the most helpful things you can do to either dig yourself out of a tough place or to build your own confidence is to get outside of you and and pour into others. And so I love I love that sentiment. It reminds me too like have you heard of the term mudita? Um mudita is a term that comes from Buddhism, but it's what it actually translates to is vicarious joy and finding success. And so I think that's so much of what I hear you describe. And like I I just I'm picturing like, you know, almost like a still shot of a of a dugout erupting, you know, after winning, like seeing everybody joyful for not only the person who got the game-winning hit or or delivered the game, like that big moment, but just that to me is really what it represents. But we can do that on a day-to-day, even more micro scale, too, um, which I think is really important. The um this doesn't have to just be from your coaching experience, but you know, I think it's there's all the stuff out there about what it takes to create a valuable culture and like what goes into that. And again, it's taking the words off the wall and putting them into actions and behaviors and things like that. But what I'm actually interested in is like the experiences that you've had or observed or seen where when the culture starts to drift and when things start to just slip a little bit or steer in a different direction, in your experience, are there either certain patterns or or things that start happening or not happening that you feel like are like warning signs uh that you pay attention to for that?

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Yeah, I mean, you know, we we had a we had a very, very tough, interesting year this last year in 2025, right? It off the field, on the field, you name it, um, just kind of really inconsistent. Um and I and I remember just you know now reflecting and and spending some time thinking back of you know felt like we did a great job as a coaching staff of every time it started to feel like it was gonna teeter, we we reeled it back in. And I think the main thing for me, the warning signs are body language. Right? It's not just about the one guy who's 0 for 4, makes an error. It's the body language after the loss. It's the body language after the win. I mean, and I think you know, I've I've seen different managers, right? When the game's over and you lose, they're out of the dugout. I wait, I wait until all of our players have walked in. Because I want to see the look on their face. I want to see if their shoulders are starting to shrug. And I want them to see, hey, I'm in this too, I'm not just running away. Um, you know, there's a lot of reasons for that. But for me, it's as soon as I start to see a little more than you know, 33%, 40, 40% of the team is starting to look a little bit defeated. All right, it's time to turn up the positivity. Time to turn up the energy. Um and I'm sure if you talk to any of our coaches, they'd be sick of me telling them that, you know, but it's it's about we we are the examples for the players because we don't have emotions. We didn't go over four, we didn't make the air. So we're we're not allowed to have the same emotions as players. Do we do we feel them? Absolutely. But we don't get to show them. And we are gonna be consistent, we are gonna be calm when things are going bad. Yeah, we're gonna be excited when things are going good. But we're gonna be calm when things aren't going well. Because as soon as we start to falter, the players start to falter. And I think it's not this aha team meeting. Sometimes that works, sometimes that makes it worse. And it's having a feel for your people, but to me, it's watching the body language of the players, they'll tell you how they're feeling. And their body language speaks way louder than them coming in saying, Yeah, you know, we're hanging in there, we're doing okay. They're always gonna tell you what you they think you want to hear. And it takes time to get the truth out of them sometimes. So it's really paying attention to the body language and and not negative, not hang your head, but more of the defeated, like, oh, here we go again. Um, you know, so I really try to be attuned to our our our players' body language um at all times.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Hey coaches and leaders, I got a quick question for you. You spend a lot of time building game plans for those you lead, but when was the last time you built one for yourself? If you're looking to sharpen your leadership skills, strengthen your team culture, or find better ways to support and challenge your athletes in the mental game, I'd love to help. I'm offering a free coaching call where we can talk through your current challenges and create a simple game plan for what might move the needle most for you, your players, and your program. Most coaches I know obsess over developing their team, but they neglect the person in the mirror. This call is a chance to invest in you because a better you is going to produce a better them. And if that sounds helpful, you can grab a time at Callanly.com slash Zach Brandon. That's Callanly.com slash Zach Brandon, or just check the link in the show notes. I'd love to connect and explore how I can best support you. The player-to-coach relationship is obviously so essential, right? There's all the adages about like, you know, people don't care what you know until they know what you know that you care and and so on. But there is also what you mentioned earlier, is like over the course of time I feel like I've become a pretty good truth teller. And there are like those moments where you have to deliver, in essence, the truth. And I know you've been on the other side of many of those conversations in your own way, so I'm sure that kind of shapes the lens that you have. Could you talk a little bit more about how why and that has been so important for you to create a culture where people are telling the truth? And then also, are there practical things that you do from a leadership standpoint to make sure that there's space created for it to come back to you as well? Like it's not just truth being delivered one directionally.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Yeah, I I mean, I'm I constantly am asking for people around me for feedback. Um, you know, I I that's actually something in my reflections after my first two years, I need to do a better job of being more intentional with each coach individually. Um I feel like, you know, in any in any job or in any way of life, you're gonna have closer relationships with others than, you know, and some of them, like Carl Willis is our pitching coach. I talked to him the whole game. So of course we're gonna have a closer relationship than say some of our assistant pitching coaches or you know, vice versa. Um, but for me, uh that's something I'm working on right now, is being more intentional and giving people more intentional space to give me feedback and and to hear their thoughts. And so um working on that right now, actually, um in the offseason, that's one of my projects. So I think just creating a space, but also when you hear their feedback, working on my reaction to it. Because no matter who you are as a human, when you hear something either critical or contradictory to what you think, our first reaction is to go, what? And the body language that we exude or the way that it's like, yeah, okay, we're not gonna do that. Then that person's not gonna want to come give you feedback anymore. And so for me, it's trying to work on I don't get upset when I hear feedback, I get upset that it took that long to hear feedback. And but that's a that's a negative reaction to that too. So there's a lot of things that I'm continuing to work on and try and learn. Um, but I also look at it this way I'm gonna treat everyone fairly, not equally. I'm not gonna give the same platform to every player that I give to Austin Hedges, who's been in the big leagues for 11 years. If he wants to talk to me about something, he can come in and share whatever. Maybe somebody with a a week in the big leagues, yeah, I want to talk to you. I really don't have there's there's a difference between what we're gonna get into, if that makes sense. And the sim it's similar with the coaches. I feel like I treat the coaches very fairly. Do I treat them all equally? May maybe not. But that's that's the gist of what we do, and that doesn't mean I don't value your opinions. So I think it's really an individual relationship with each person on the team, on the staff. It's knowing what is that relationship, and if it's weak, that's on me. I gotta go make that stronger. Because it's really hard for someone to walk into the manager's office, which is my least favorite phrase in the world. But it's really hard to come walking in and just say, hey, here's what I'm thinking. So I need to be intentional about the times, the setting, where we're talking, what we're talking about, and create that safe space for them to give feedback or their input without reacting to it in a negative way. And and that can be difficult sometimes because we are in the heat of a of an intense season, but it's something I'm very aware that I need to get better at, and I'm working through that.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

There was a um a researcher or listened to her give a workshop on on leadership a couple years ago, and one of the things that she said is she's like, this is oversimplified, but she was like, What oftentimes happens in cultures is they either become a very harmony-based culture or they become a truth-based culture. And obviously there's a little bit of uh a little bit of a blend at times, but she was like, more often than not, they lean on the harmony side where it's like, hey, let's make sure that nobody ruffles feathers, let's make sure that we, you know, deliver this in a gentle way so we don't, you know, rub anybody the wrong way. So what I appreciate appreciate about what you're describing is like as an individual the individual responsibility as you as a leader to create a space, not only to deliver the truth, but to like receive it is important. The other piece of this too is the people in your environment, like your fellow staff, and how important it is to bring in people who will also tell you the truth and be, you know, surrounded by those people. And I know um, you know, we just had Annie McKay, who's who's joining the staff as well on the show. And so I'm interested, maybe if you could talk a little bit about the staff for a moment and like what's important to you when it comes to who you surround yourself with? I know there's some that are part of that group that have been there even before you got there, and then there's parts, people that you've brought in. So for you though, what's what's most important for you to be able to do your job well, but also lead the team well with those that you bring in to the team?

SPEAKER_02 44:01

You gotta be a consistent person. You know, I think anytime you're working, especially in sports or coaching, you have to know who's walking through the door every day. You know, and if one day you get happy go lucky, the next day you get quiet and upset, that is really, really hard to build consistency with the players because they're gonna pick up on that. And so you know it's like I tell our hitting coaches all the time, like you have the worst job in the world. There's no harder job on the planet than being a hitting coach for a baseball team. It just really isn't. It's you're not allowed to have a bad day in there. You're not allowed to be negative, you're not allowed to be down. Everybody that walks into that cage is Barry Bonds, and you gotta get them to believe in their Barry Bonds when they walk out of there. And sorry, I know I'm Barry Bonds fan, grew up Giants fan. I yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Favorite player. Um so I think for me it's that it's that consistency and it ain't about you. It ain't about you, it's about the players. And I feel super blessed that you know, coming to Cleveland, it was a winning organization, great leadership that I have a chance to work for. And the coaches that that we inherited are phenomenal people and phenomenal coaches. And yeah, there's been some turnover, there's gonna be turnover every year, but um I couldn't be more blessed because I do feel like I get to work with some of the best baseball minds, truth tellers, and they love the players. And for us, that's all we talk about. We talk about how can we love our players more, how can we get them better, how can we, you know, it we don't turn our backs on players here. We get it, we get them better. If we have to send someone down, that's a loss for us. So how do we get them better the next time we come back? And again, everything we do in the industry is about the players. Because if they're not here, none of us are here. They're here to, they're here to work, they're here to play, they have to go out and do it. So it is 100% about them. And as soon as we feel like coaches, it's about us, we need to take a step back and reevaluate, thinking we have something to do with the outcome of the game, because we really don't. We need to help them be positioned to be their best.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

This has been a sentiment that you've in essence described and or or hinted at throughout this conversation is like it's about the players and how you model that as a leader and as a coach really matters too, right? If you're gonna ask players to do X, Y, or Z, are you as a staff or as a leader doing X, Y, and Z and modeling? It's kind of like parenting, you know, I'm I'm discovering now it's with two under two, basically. It's do as I say, not as I do does not work. It's there's a lot of moments where my son is picked up on something, and I'm like, where did you get that? Oh, you've watched me. Great. Uh so it it worked similar in coaching. With that, I think learning is a piece of this. So we ask players, you know, we have player development plans and things like that. We have players to grow throughout the year in the off season, things like that. I'm interested if you maybe share a little bit about kind of your own personal process for learning. I think some of it you've already kind of touched on um with, you know, like the working with the coach, but also I know how much of a kind of an avid student you are uh of different things pertaining to leadership and and the awareness and the self-reflection. So yeah, could you maybe just talk a little bit about your personal learning process now in this in in as a manager?

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Yeah, I I mean I asked a lot of questions. I I did as a player, I'm sure if you had any one of the you know minor league, big league managers that I played for, they'd be like, oh dude, that guy asked way too many freaking questions. Um I'm curious. I'm curious because it doesn't matter what role you're in. Um if you have an idea, I'm gonna I want to know it. And maybe, maybe it's not the idea we go with, but maybe it sparks a good thought, or maybe maybe it is something that I should consider. There's really no one's opinion that I don't find valid. You know, I'm not dismissive of anyone's thoughts. And I think we have to be understanding that as a leader and as somebody, um, you know, I've already seen it in two years, you know, now I'm this big expert because I've been doing it for two years, but um I have blind spots, I have things that I get latched on to that I believe. And if there's not someone challenging that, or if I'm not asking for someone to challenge that, then I'm not gonna grow. And so for me, it's a lot of observations, it's a lot of asking questions, it's um getting, you know, we have so many great resources in Cleveland as far as learning development, um, our research and development, all these different things that I'll ask them questions. Hey, what do you think about this? And and try and gather information. So constantly asking the staff for feedback. I need to do a better job of that, as we've discussed earlier, and I'm putting steps in place to do so. Um, you know, my wife is not afraid to give me her unfiltered feedback, which is great, and I bounce a lot of things off of her. She was a high school and college basketball coach, so she's got a lot of good ideas on team building and things of that nature. So um, it's all of those things. I've actually started reading some books. I know, believe it or not. Um it's uh I'm actually enjoying it. I you know, try and lead read some leadership books of people that I respect, and it always helps when I know who they are. Um but you know, you take whether you take one or two nuggets from it. Sometimes I'll read the prologue. Like, what's the book? Uh Leaders Eat Last. So I apologize for anybody who loves that. I read the intro and the prologue, I'm like, got it. Okay, I'm good. I don't need to read any more of it. So it it's you know, I I learn differently than than anybody else, but for me it's I can't take enough information and thoughts in. I'll filter it out because I know our players better than anybody on the planet. So I'll filter out what they need and what our coaches need, but I just want as much information in this messed up brain of mine to rattle around and uh we'll see what comes out.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Put you on the spot a little bit here. Has there been one or two books since you've kind of maybe engaged in that practice a little bit more that has either resonated for you or that you've maybe pulled something that you felt like, okay, I could take this and and implement it in the last year or so?

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Yeah. Um, you know, I'll go with uh The Wisdom of the Bullfrog um by Admiral McCraven. Um I just I love the stories in that, but also just there's such good leadership nuggets um that I've really taken a lot from. Um, and then uh that's that's probably the the one of them. Um I'm reading another book right now. Um it's called Jesus the High Road Leader, and so trying to learn as much from that as I can. And so it's just a broad spectrum of books that, you know, and I'm I'm trying. I I can't stand reading. It's not my forte. I I listen to atomic habits. Um, you know, so I'm I've got a little bit of both. And so I'm just really trying to to grow myself and challenge my way of thinking and making sure that I'm not missing anything.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

I want to um, you know, kind of bring us here. We're getting close to like I guess the ninth inning, we'll call it, of uh, of the game. And uh I I want to have just a few kind of questions, but I think I don't know if this has been your experience or not, but I think it's a theme that I've talked about a lot on this show, as well as with you know, players and and people over time, is that I think we're in an era where because of how much access we have to the different information, to different like sources of knowledge, content, like it's everywhere. It's very easy to fall into the trap of add, add, add and do more, more, more. Sometimes the most helpful thing we can do is subtract and or stop doing something, or just not do something, period. So with that, I I'd actually be interested in whether this is a tangible thing or or maybe this is something that will last me years of like Steven, what's something that you purposefully don't do as a coach?

SPEAKER_02 52:17

I deleted all social media. Um I loved it. I got a lot of content out of it. I got a lot of joy out of you know the things that I'm interested in. Um it's a really valuable tool. And I learned very quickly in this job that no matter what you do, no one's gonna be appreciative of it. And there's people out there that they hide behind the keyboard, they say what they want, and it's just a lot of negativity. And I realized that for the 10% of negativity that came from social media, it wasn't worth the 90%. And I filled that time doing more productive things. I've filled that time by reading, I've filled that time by being more present with my family, and so I do not, will not ever go back to social media. Um, and that's just something to protect my own psychology as well as it really wasn't worth my time now that I've not had it for over a year. And um, so that's something that I just absolutely do not do.

unknown 53:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Um at the highest level, winning is less about blank and more about blank in your from your perspective. Winning is less about blank and more about blank.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Winning is less about today. It's more about the process.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Great. Now, again, the other side of this show is all about okay, now we we want to win, but also how do we live better as as leaders and coaches? You live better as a coach when you stop measuring yourself by like I think you get better as a coach when you stop measuring yourself by your win-loss record.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

Um You know, we the one sign we have in our clubhouse is win the day. And I know that's this new original thought, right? But um winning winning today doesn't necessarily mean that you scored more runs than the other team in our world. And maybe it's our you know, Brian Rocchio had a two-strike hit the other way, and it's something he's been working on for months, or maybe we executed a certain pitch in a certain count that we've been working on for a month, and that could be a win because that is gonna translate into more wins down the road. And I think for me, it's not about your win-loss record, it's are you developing the people and are they getting better with you? And that doesn't always translate into wins. And um, it's really hard to ignore, and it's really hard to not look at the standings, but I can honestly say I don't look at the standings until you know mid-August. I I never have, I never will. It it just doesn't matter until it does. And show up every day with the idea we're winning tonight, and that may not mean we win the game, but we're gonna win today. And um, so that that's my that's my answer.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

I think this was the ALCS um two years ago. There was a soundbite that you shared of a uh lesson that you learned from a mentor of like you have to learn the lesson and leave the event. Could you just maybe talk a little bit more about kind of how that particular quote has has resonated for you or been a principle that you've tried to apply, either as a player or as a leader?

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Yeah, I um came from, you know, I don't know where he got it, but my middle skills coach, Michael Price, he uh talks a lot about learn the lesson, leave the event. And I'm like, okay, what does that mean? He's like, okay, so let's say last night you brought in said reliever, they gave up two walks and a three-run homer, and you lost the game. Okay. What'd you learn from that? What can you learn from that? So you dive in, you learn as much as you can. All right, now we leave the event behind. Because the event is not the learning lesson. The event was the catalyst that brought you to break down everything that may have gone wrong, may have gone right. And you do that on the flip side with positive things. You don't you don't keep the event around, you leave the event behind. What do you learn from it? And so for me, anytime something goes really right or really wrong, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna think about every other area I can apply that to. Was I not thinking ahead? Was I caught up in the moment? Did I get sped up? Did I was I distracted by something that I didn't need to be thinking about in the moment? How do I stay engaged and locked in on what I need to be engaged in? And and I'm still learning that, right? I've only been doing this for two years. I I am nowhere near an expert on this. I want to continue to get better. And so this idea of learn the lesson, leave the event, it's it's great because I I've told that to now I've said it on a media thing, right? But I've told that to some of the assistants, I've told that to my bosses, I've and now they hold me accountable with it. Because I'll get fixated on something, I'm like, I can't believe I did that, I can't believe I did that. And I'm like, hey, learn the lesson, leave the event. I'm like, screw you, but thank you. And uh so I think for me, any event that happens in our life, we should be trying to learn as much from as possible. You know, how I handled a player conversation. Was it good, bad, and different? What can I learn from that one? How did that go? How did how can it get better next time? Um, you know, but you can't control the decision you made or what you said, you can't go back on it. All you can do is learn from it and move on.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

Last two quick questions, total shift, um, and last last two here is um I'd be remiss, I think, if I didn't ask you about Alyssa. Um, and just again, like you you touched on her a little bit more earlier with just kind of her background. And I know even when you were with us, you often talked about um just the not only the love that you both share, but also just her influence on you. I I was hoping maybe you could kind of just share a little bit as to like what she's how she has influenced the person that you are today um as a leader, as a person.

SPEAKER_02 58:29

Yeah, I I I mean, obviously I'm a little biased. You know, we just celebrate our 18th wedding anniversary. She you know, we got married right after short season. So she we've been together my whole baseball career, essentially. And um, she's been my best friend, she's been my partner. She's when I wanted to quit, she's talked me out of it. When I want to not work hard, she gets my butt off the couch. It and you know, she we talk through every single day after the game's over. We talk through what went right, what went wrong, who do you need to talk to tomorrow. Hey, did you know, did you ask him how his mom's doing? Did you ask him how like she helps me think about the person and the overarching theme? And she has just been a huge support system for me. I would have never gotten through my baseball career, let alone this job without Alyssa and her support, and I'm thankful that I have her as a partner to to do this with.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Very last question. This is a question that I ask um uh every guest to to kind of bring bring it to a close. But Stephen, what's something that you're proud of that maybe you don't always get an excuse to talk about?

SPEAKER_02 59:41

I'm I'm really proud of the fact that I, you know, I I work really hard to be a present father and husband even when I'm traveling and on the road and not perfect at it. I need to get better in that area, but something that I really am proud of is that my family remains a priority. Even in it may not look that way when I'm living three-quarters of the way across the country and working in baseball, but my family has been my number one priority, will always be my number one priority, and I'm really thankful and and proud that that's the that is the way it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

I think with um with everything, I think this show is is geared towards and the mission behind it and how we want to serve. I I couldn't have asked, I think, for a better, better conversation with somebody to kind of share your experiences with that, both both in successes as well as in some of the challenges you face. So uh voter, I I just want to thank you again for for taking some time to to do this.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

I really appreciate you. I mean, it's been a lot of fun and um best of luck to you in this process. And um I I'm so fortunate to do what I do and to have had the experiences and the career that I did as a player and worked really hard for it, got a lot of luck, got a lot of the right place at the right time, but um super thankful for everyone that I've crossed paths with. I've learned a lot from my everyone and probably took more from them than they think they did uh or that I did. But um couldn't be more grateful for the opportunity I have and gonna continue to work my butt off to help our players get better.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

Awesome. Yeah, I'm excited to follow, continue to follow and support from afar. So, Steven, again, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Before we wrap up, I just want to say a quick thank you to Stephen Vogue for taking the time to share his experiences and perspective. I'm incredibly grateful for his honesty, his generosity in this conversation, and it's been an honor to continue to learn from him since the day that I first met him as a player. Now, as always, I want to thank you as the listener. I'm especially grateful to those of you who have been sharing the show with friends, colleagues, and other coaches and leaders who you think might benefit from these conversations. Seems like just about every week I'm hearing from somebody that's just learned of the podcast, they're hearing it for the first time, and it's coming from all over the globe, and I think that's just been really cool, and that kind of I think word-of-mouth support, it means a great deal to me, so thank you. If you're a coach or leader who's trying to win more while also live better or live more um a healthier life too, I'd love to support you. I offer free coaching calls where we can talk through your current challenges and create a simple, actionable game plan for what might help you, your team, or your organization to move forward. And I also have a variety of other resources depending on where you're at and what you're working through that I'd love to share. If that sounds helpful, you can grab a time at Callendly.com slash Zach Brandon. That's Callenly.com slash Zach Brandon, or just check the link in the show notes. And if you've been enjoying these conversations, one of the best ways you can continue to support the show is by rating, reviewing, or subscribing. It's gonna help more people discover it and allow us to continue bringing you conversations with great leaders, great coaches, experts who can help all of us win more and live better. So again, thank you for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.