JJ Van Niel | Head Volleyball Coach, Arizona State Univ. | "Coach Like a CEO"

JJ Van Niel’s path to becoming one of the top coaches in college volleyball is anything, but conventional.

After spending more than a decade in the financial world (including investment banking and hedge funds), Van Niel made the leap into coaching, bringing with him a unique lens on leadership, systems, and performance. Today, he is the head coach at Arizona State University, where he has quickly transformed the program into a national contender.

In his first three seasons, Van Niel has led the Sun Devils to back-to-back Big 12 Championships (which are the only conference titles in program history), while earning Conference Coach of the Year honors each year. His teams have set program records for winning percentage, produced multiple All-Americans, and made deep runs in the NCAA Tournament, including regional semifinal appearances.

Before Arizona State, Van Niel was an associate head coach at USC, helping guide the Trojans to multiple NCAA Tournament appearances and previously served at Utah during one of the most successful stretches in program history. He has also contributed to the U.S. Women’s National Team, supporting Olympic and World Championship preparation through scouting and analytics. 

This conversation explores the journey behind his success and how JJ’s unconventional background continues to shape the way he leads, builds teams, and develops people.

Here's some notable highlights from our conversation:
[5:21] — Transition from Finance to Coaching

[11:03] — Coaching Like A CEO

[16:30] — Building a Complementary Staff

[27:15] — Learning From Hiring Mistakes

[31:13] — Intentionally Building Relationships

[38:10] — Weekly Performance Check-Ins

[40:52] — The Core 4 Pillars for ASU's Program

[48:32] — Growing as a Coach

[55:37] — The Courage to Pivot to Coaching

Learn More About Zach:

• If you’re a coach or leader striving for more clarity, consistency, and fulfillment, feel free to sign up for a free discovery call to see how I can best support you: https://calendly.com/zachbrandon/discoverycall
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• You can watch the video recordings of the podcast on YouTube here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Honestly, I think one that that people don't realize is maybe the lifeblood is you just who you hire. Um, and I think when you're in the business world, it it's like very clear how important that is because when you lose like an elite performer, you don't know if you're getting an elite one back. And then if they're not good, it's very policy to the business. And because other people are spending resources trying to help them. Uh, and maybe they're just not on the right seat on the bus, you know, it's kind of cliche, but uh it doesn't mean anyone's a bad person or whatever, but like you gotta find the right people on the right seat on your bus.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Welcome back to another episode of Win More Live Better. Today's conversation is with someone I've had on my radar for a while. It's JJ Van Neal. He's the head volleyball coach at Arizona State University. JJ's path into coaching is anything but traditional. Before stepping onto the sideline, he spent over a decade in the finance world, working in high-stakes analytical environments, including hedge funds, capital allocation, decision making, and performance were everything. But despite being on a path towards significant financial success, he made a bold decision to walk away, to pursue something he felt deeply called to, which was coaching. And since then, JJ's built a reputation as one of the most thoughtful and intentional coaches in the country, someone who blends analytics, teaching, culture building, and leadership in a way that's both unique and highly effective. In just a few short years as the head coach at ASU, JJ has completely transformed the program, leading the Sun Devils the back-to-back Big 12 championships, the first conference titles in program history, while earning Conference Coach of the Year honors in each of his first three seasons, a feat that only a handful of coaches in NCAA volleyball history have ever accomplished. His teams have produced multiple All Americans, record setting seasons, and deep NCAA tournament runs, including regional semifinal appearances and some of the highest winning percentages the program has ever seen. Now, before taking over at ASU, JJ was an associate head coach at USC, and then prior to that, he was also part of a very successful run at Utah where the program reached an NCAA regional semifinal. He's also spent time with the U.S. women's national team contributing to Olympic preparation, world championship success, and high-level international competition alongside some of the best in the sport. Now, irrespective of all of JJ's coaching accomplishments, I think this conversation is really valuable because it also gives you a glimpse into how he thinks. So in this episode, we dive into questions like what does it really mean to run a program like a business? And why does that matter more than ever today? How do you build a staff where strengths don't just overlap, but they actually can complement one another? What happens when your biggest strength as a coach can start to become a liability? How do you balance intensity and relationships to actually get the best out of your players? And what does it look like to pursue excellence without losing yourself, your health, and your relationships along the way? So if you're a coach, leader, or high performer looking to become more intentional in how you lead, develop, and connect with others, I think this conversation definitely has something for you. Now, as always, I'm incredibly grateful for those of you who continue to join me for these conversations. If you've been enjoying the show, it would mean a lot if you rate, review, and subscribe. It's not only going to help more people find the podcast, but it's also going to allow us to continue bringing conversations with world-class coaches, leaders, and thinkers so we can all win more and live better. So now without further ado, I'm thrilled to share with you my conversation with Coach JJ Van Neal. Welcome back to uh a new episode of the Win More Live Better Podcast, where we're continuing uh the theme of talking to coaches, uh executives, thought leaders, around concepts, around leadership, coaching, hyperformance, culture, and so on. But but really, more than anything, these conversations are an opportunity for us to dive into the human summit of leadership and coaching. And today um I'm welcome by our second uh Sun Devil affiliated uh coach. We've got um Coach JJ Van Neal. He's the head coach for the um the volleyball team at Arizona State University. And um, I've had this one on my radar for a while. Um, I've heard nothing but great things about JJ and what the program that he's built, but also I'm really excited to get into his story too, which I think many of you will find really unique in a lot of ways, but also I think it'll be cool to kind of pull on some of the threads of how it shows up in his coaching. But more than anything, JJ, I'm grateful for you to taking uh for you taking some time to have the conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

You bet. Thank you for uh having me and uh honored to be on the show.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah. I I as I mentioned, you know, I think at the beginning, there is some uniqueness in in terms of your story, particularly in your um your journey to becoming a collegiate coach and and kind of where that started um in a in a completely kind of different domain in in terms of being in the finance world for I believe almost about 12 years. I'd actually kind of want to start there because I can imagine that that shows up in in a number of different ways in now how you lead and think about coaching and so forth. So um what was the the pull for you towards pursuing coaching maybe more full-time um from that space?

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yeah, I think um you know I've been in that world for quite a while, and uh there were some aspects of it that I really loved. There, like the intellectual stuff I loved. Um but I I think at the time I was just maybe getting a little bit burnt out um with some stuff, you know, maybe specific to that company, but just in general. And um I started coaching on the side and and literally it's just I just felt like it was weird because I had no plans on coaching. Um I'd coached one time, I had coached Volleyball once in my life when I first graduated high school. I remember I totally forgot about this, but uh I was going um to school and I decided to help our old high school team. And I mean when I say I was coaching, it's like I was like doing almost nothing. But uh but there was really no particularly draw to coaching. Um but when I when I went to my first practice, uh I I just fell in love and I realized A, I had no idea what I was doing. Um and I think uh maybe a little arrogantly, I was like, oh, you know, because when I played I was a setter and I thought about the game a lot. It was kind of not super physical. Um that was sort of sort of my skill set in the in that role, and I thought, oh man, I I know the game and I'll just be a good coach. And then I went in and was like, I have no idea what I'm doing. Um and I just kind of went down this rabbit hole of uh just trying to figure out everything I could about how to teach uh volleyball um about the sport, like trying to think analytically about it. Um I did some clinics right away. So once I figured out I didn't know what I was doing, I just I bought it. I I literally back then you didn't have the internet resources. I bought every book I could find, DVDs. Um I went to the library, found all these old books, and then I just I started going to any clinic I could find. And there were a couple good clinics that I went to early on, and and I thought they did a really nice job of talking about having, you know, as a teacher, you should have some principles, and then um those principles should drive kind of how you're teaching the sport or teaching what you're doing, and then you should have some data if you can to back up, you know, why you're doing what you're doing. Um and my experience with most coaches in my life was always like uh I got in ask questions, it was just like this is just what you do. Um, and I'm sure they all had reasons why. Um but I just kind of went down that rabbit hole of trying to figure out um the analytics side of Wyble, because especially back then it was very, very sparse information on that. Um so one of the clinics I'd gone to had kind of did dove in pretty well on some stuff, and it just got me asking questions, and then all of their research or things that they had looked at were at a higher level. So I just kind of started going down the rabbit hole at the club level to figure out is it the same, is it different? Um, to sort of have a reason. Okay, these are numbers that we should follow. This is these should be benchmarks, and this is why we should kind of do what we're doing. And uh to me that was uh just a fascinating kind of um puzzle, I guess you would say, of course, you know, and forget the there's there's quite a bit of behavioral side of teaching and coaching, which I've learned way more over the years about. Uh but like my initial draw was just okay, like how can you figure out some analytics? Because I it was clear not many people, at least certainly in the club, were like using anything like that. Um and how can you use that to sort of drive how you train, what you train, why you train it? And to me, that was like that puzzle piece. And it was it almost was like my my finance years, um, especially the last job I was at. Uh we were in an activist fund and we'd kind of really dig into companies um very deeply to try to understand not just what the public documents say, but how you could use outside resources plus the public documents to figure out more of the story of you know individual businesses, what's driving it, etc. And all that stuff, I think was just very fascinating to me. And I felt like the volleyball was getting me in like a very early stages of that kind of bug. Um, so that's kind of how I got into it. And um, you know, originally I was gonna go on a sabbatical and take you know six months off and then go back to the finance world. And I just uh every time I'd interview for a new finance job, I was like sick to my stomach, and I remember I just finally kind of went home and I'm like, I'm just gonna do this. And you know, I my wife didn't walk out the door, which is insane. Um, when I think back to that. But uh I you know we just had our 27-year anniversary and uh feel very lucky that she's kind of been through this through the thick and thin and supported me and pretty well, pretty well, to be honest, when I think back of like what I actually did. It's worked out okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

You know, those that I've I've interviewed in previous conversations, I feel like those with um uh spouses have it's been a common theme is how much how important it is to to find the right person uh to have in your corner and to navigate this kind of journey in the realm of coaching and how important that is for all of us. Uh you know, one of the things that I've heard you previously share is like, you know, nowadays, I think in particular, but just given all the different demands and and and grabs for your attention, your time, you you've you I've heard you say that like being a head coach at that level, it can it can function in some ways similar to like being a CEO. Um, and maybe that's where I could see your background, as you've kind of already touched on a bit in finance. There's probably been some advantages that have been used. But I I'm also interested if there's things that you feel like you've taken from that world that maybe are underestimated or underutilized that actually are very applicable to the role that and the seat that you now hold.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yeah, I think uh honestly, like when you're running a program, it's like being a CEO. And so I think a lot of the stuff that I went through back then, and I wasn't running a company, but we were so especially at the really at both of the hedge funds I worked at, like we were very involved with the companies um and really digging in uh to all aspects of the company and and thinking about how to run it and and be more efficient. And so I just had so much exposure to these like really smart people in all aspects, like whether it be marketing, finance, it you know, it didn't really matter the the CEO, CFO, all those guys. And so I really have approached this um opportunity that I have, um and really think about it almost like a business, you know, and and you've got these various constituents. Um but I honestly think one that that people don't realize is is maybe the lifeblood is uh is you're just who you hire. Um and I think when you're in the business world, it it's like very clear how important that is because when you lose like an elite performer, you don't know if you're getting an elite one back. And then if they're not good, it's very costly to the business. And because other people are spending resources trying to help them, uh and maybe they're just not on the right seat on the bus, you know, it's kind of cliche, but um, it doesn't mean anyone's a bad person or whatever, but like you gotta find the right people on the right seat on your bus. And so I I do think, you know, over the years I've thought through a lot of that stuff, and I, you know, I still read you know business books and stuff like that just because I like that stuff. But um I really have a I've tried to approach everything, you know, and there's so many aspects to running a program. And you know, when I came over here, it wasn't hey, let's just go win volleyball matches. You know, I I think on my very first um press conference when I'd gotten the job, I talked about you know what a juggernaut Nebraska's become. And you go play a match there, and it's it's an incredible experience. It's sold out, um, they travel well. And I talked about like, hey, we you know, we're in the fifth largest city in the country. Uh, if we build the right product and we can get the right game atmosphere, and obviously you gotta win. If you're not winning, it's not gonna help, but can you create this environment where you have you know six, seven thousand people wanting to come to your match and and build that? And I think I said in the first my first press conference, like there's no reason why we can't have that at Arizona State. And so a lot of the things I think about are how do we drive that area. I mean, I spent a lot more time in marketing and the business side than probably a lot of coaches do. I don't I don't know for sure, but when I talk to other coaches, usually that's not where our talks go to. Um but I think about that a lot because to me it's at the end of the day, you're trying to create value. Um, and there's especially in this day and age uh of NCAA sports, there's obviously but there's value winning, that's important. Uh, but there's also value in the economic side of it, you know, and can you be smart with your budget? Um can you allocate your capital really well? And you know, when I was at the hedge fund in in San Diego, it was um called Relational Investors, and we were an activist hedge camp, but it was all about capital allocation, you know. You have this business, you have these resources, how are you allocating those resources in the most efficient way to trade at a high multiple, et cetera, et cetera? Um so I think about that stuff a lot. And I know I'm go I'm going a little off of who you hire, but I think um who you hire to be around you has to compliment you and not be the same as you. And I felt like I learned a lot of that in especially in some of my older, because you just end up with like all these type A dudes and and women, and it's kind of gnarly. Um and so I always think a lot about A, I want to be around people that I want to be around, you know, and I was like that even back in my hedge fund days. Like we we'd get all these interviews, smart guys, but I always thought I called it like the New York flight test, you know, like would I want to sit on a flight to New York next to this guy with no headphones, no entertainment? Like I forgot everything, and I'm just sitting next to him. Like, is this a dude I'd want to sit next to, or is this a woman I'd want to sit next to? And I think that it goes a long way, you know. Like, do they have the capacity to do what they need to do? But then are they just are they good people you want to be around? Um, and can they compliment you? So I don't know, I kind of went all over on that answer, but uh, those are a lot of the ways that I think about you know running the program.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

I love the um the flight thought experiment. We called it the bar, the bar test. You know, like if you were to go sit right at the same same premise, right? You go sit at the bar, who who would you or would you not want to have a drink and and have a conversation with this person? Uh but I but I do actually really appreciate that response because you know, something that I'm you know a really big proponent on or big proponent of is the role that the environment plays in shaping player development, right? And nobody influences that environment more than the coaches, than the staff. And so, and like I'm a big proponent that coach development will drive player development and so forth. So where I'd actually be kind of interested just for a moment, you you mentioned just kind of the finding people that complement you in essence. I'm sure there I know there's a lot of complexity to hiring and a lot of different factors that go into, but over the years, what have been some of those things that you've looked for in people that could complement you and and your strengths or or your straight uh yeah, your your strengths?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah, um that's easy because uh you know I've I've gone through some stuff here hiring, and and I remember um I got the offer, and Brad Keller, the head coach at USC at the time, you know, I told him, I said, hey, I'm gonna take it. And I'm not kidding. Uh and I love him for it, but I'm also annoyed that he even did this. But there was someone that we had but we had recruited at USC. Her name is Presley Anderson, she's now one of my associate head coaches. Um I had recruited her, she'd gone to Baylor, then um, she had been a uh volunteer at uh TCU. And uh I get a text from her like the next morning, you know, it was like, Hey, I heard you're the new ACU head coach, like I really want to come home. I know I'm a little young, I'm a little new, but like I I would love to come work for you. And you know, as when you become a new head coach, and I don't, you know, I've got no track record, um everyone's looking at who you're hiring, and there's a lot of judgment going on. And so my first response was like, No way, I need someone with like way more experience. Um But I remembered her and I loved her on the recruiting. Like I we were so bummed that you know she didn't come to USC. Uh and one of one of her superpowers is her charisma and just she's just a wonderful person to be around. And so I remember I'm like, hey, I'm gonna have a call, I'll talk to her, and this will be early, and I probably won't offer her, but um, I talk to her, and you know, the half hour conversation is you know an hour and a half, and I'm laughing, and I'm enjoying myself, and she just she has a really big personality, this beautiful smile. I mean, she just lights up any room she goes into. And she can talk to any. I mean, I always joke around if there's a table, you would have a conversation, you know. She's one of those people, she just can talk to anyone and um and genuinely, it's not fake. And uh so I go through that process and um it's a couple days later, I'm talking to more people, talking to more people, and I'm like, I'm really trying to at least get a hire quickly. And I just kept going back to like and then I call Presley and it'd be like, Hey, can you just hop on the phone? And and then it'd be like just 20 minutes, and then the next thing you know, it's another hour call. And I remember at one point I go, This is dumb. Like I can it's cool that she doesn't know a ton because now I can hopefully develop her and maybe some things that are our systems or how I teach or how I coach. And she'll be super malleable, you know, from that standpoint. She won't have like a bunch of preconceived notions. Um, but most importantly, I tend to be rough around the edges. Uh not always the best with my tone. I'm trying to get better with that. And every time I t I would talk to her, I'm like, this is like someone I need in my gym because uh she's the polar opposite of me in my intensity. Uh and she's very competitive, very competitive, but just has this wonderful charisma about her. And you know, everyone loves her. Like you just you introduce her, and I love press. You know, everywhere I got that stuff. I know, I know. So um and I just thought, man, this is the perfect compliment to me because I have to have someone like this on my staff. And so I pull the trigger on her really quickly, and I'm I will forever be grateful that she has been on a foxhole with me literally since day one. Um just promoted her associate coach uh recently, and you know, I always joke with her. I'm like, your your next job is gonna be a head job. You're never like I'm never letting you leave me. Which might everybody don't I know that probably sounds creepy, but uh I value her so much. Um for anyone to go after her, you know, I I will fight tooth and nail. And um for good reason because she just is really special. And um and then you go through the process, you know, and I you know, I hired someone else that was uh really, really big name um and and really good person as well. But the fit was really not good at all, you know. The just how she felt and I did a really bad job in the interview process of of teasing that out. You know, it was a really good learning experience. Um and uh you know, it didn't work out, and she ended up only being here for a couple months. And honestly, I felt terrible. I'm sure she was really upset and um but it was a a really fascinating experiment or experience for me because the next person I went to went into again, you know, I was thinking I gotta have a big name. I've got no resume. Um but in the second round when I started talking to people, I mean I was putting people through the ringer and trying to figure out, you know, how are they with their personality, what are their skill set. I knew I needed someone really, really, really organized um from a recruiting standpoint and a program standpoint. Because I already knew a big chunk of my time was going to be investing in relationships, uh especially with the players and like spending time with them off the court. So I knew I had to have like that. I'm not gonna say administrative because she's a a rock star volleyball mind, but just a really sharp person that can handle a lot of extra admin things that I might have to pass off and be a really organized recruiter. And uh and then I ended up with who's also an associate coach now. I promoted her last year. Her name's Ellen Andrew, and when you look at her her past, um I'm sure people were head scratching of like, why did you just hire her? Um, because she was a recruiting coordinator at a at a club in South Dakota, not even like a super well known club. Um they've had a few really nice players uh come out of there, but she had worked at like Sam Houston State for years, she had coached a club in Texas. And then she was an assistant in Augustana, but she was with Dan Meske, who's now the Louisville head coach and has had a lot of success. Dan, I've known Dan for quite a while. And a couple of my friends, uh close coaching, coach coaching friends, and had recommended Ellen for all the reasons because they know me well and they're like, she's gonna be a perfect compliment. Um and so I reached out to her, and I remember she'll she would even tell you, like, when I called, she thought it was about recruiting, you know, and I I kind of I think initially she was like, No way. And then we just kept talking and um went through this you know pretty long process, but it just became very clear um she was gonna be the perfect fit. And you know, she's another one that like I will fight tooth and nail to keep because uh I love her. She's one of the most intelligent people I've ever met. She's very organized, and maybe her biggest super skill is she is the same person every day. And it does not matter what's going on. She she had a baby um last June. Uh and I mean I know she's not sleeping right now. Like I like I I know we talk, you know, but you're in the gym and like there's no bad day. And I would love to say that's true about me. My whole team would say that is not true about you. Um, so again, just another really, really complimentary piece to the puzzle where I'm just I just like every day I'm I I'm so grateful that I have the staff, you know, and that Sean, when I hired Sean um a couple years ago, it was the exact same thing. I kind of went through this long process and I figured out like what I needed. And he's a grinder, really good in the gym, um, can help me a lot with some of the practice planning things that you know I I'm I'm very hands-on with practice planning, but I've been able to start delegating because as you know, when you're a CEO or your head coach, you have to find ways to delegate because there just isn't you know 48 hours in the day. And uh, you know, I'm constantly just grateful of kind of the staff I built. And I think it's an absolute huge key to our success because we all are different personalities and they and we all complement each other, and then we can all play roles that help the program that really don't overlap a ton, you know, and and even at other programs, like when you have two people that like overlap a lot, then there's something that's gonna be missing, you know, and or you got to put some on something that they're they're not comfortable, they don't want to do. So I I again I I'm probably just saying too much about this, but I'm I'm very grateful. And it is it is a big, big deal. And uh, you know, as every coach knows, you spend more of your hours with your your assistants than you do with your spouse. You know, like I see my wife at night in the morning, that's that's it. And I'm with these guys all day long. And I think you have to have so much trust um in this day and age with you know who you bring into your circle, and that coaching circle is a very tight and very important circle. So I can't really stress enough um how important that's been.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Hey coaches and leaders, I got a quick question for you. You spend a lot of time building game plans for those you lead, but when was the last time you built one for yourself? If you're looking to sharpen your leadership skills, strengthen your team culture, or find better ways to support and challenge your athletes in the mental game, I'd love to help. I'm offering a free coaching call where we can talk through your current challenges and create a simple game plan for what might move the needle most for you, your players, and your program. Most coaches I know obsess over developing their team, but they neglect the person in the mirror. This call is a chance to invest in you because a better you is going to produce a better them. And if that sounds helpful, you can grab a time at Callinly.com slash Zach Brandon. That's Callinly.com slash Zach Brandon, or just check the link in the show notes. I'd love to connect and explore how I can best support you. You know, someone shared this with me. This is on an individual level, but I'll bring it to a group in a second, is that overused strengths can eventually become liabilities or weaknesses, right? And I think like on an individual level, that always has made sense. But then for you as a when you're building the staff, not to have everybody on staff have the same strength and to be really intentional as you've been, I think is really actually I'm I actually love hearing it, and I'll share just a quick side with it. Um, you know, I I get asked a lot, like, hey, how do you define creating an optimal environment for teams and things like that across different spaces? And I have kind of distilled it into four kind of core pillars or four cornerstones, if you will, but one of which is systems. And I think what I'm hearing you describe is having how important it is to have a good intentional system for the people that you bring in, right? And for how you hire, and even how through I appreciated you even sharing that there have been some misses or andor just, you know, they're not the right fit, or for whatever reason. I wasn't gonna ask this, but I'm I'm I'm curious if you're open what you did differently after that one that maybe didn't go well, like what you personally, and or how did your system for hiring get better after that um that uh that that particular one?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah, I think on the first one, um, and she's she's a really good human being and a good coach, and it just wasn't the right fit. Um I think I was so focused on a name hire, a person that's a no-brainer, without actually discussing enough about how I coach, what my personal like my personality was not good for her, um, how I trained, how I thought about it, how they did, or how they thought about it. And and she had been doing it for a year, you know, she's a very successful player, very successful coach. Um, and I was just so busy, like, oh, I just got to get this, you know, highly experienced person, and we'll just figure it out. And uh, you know, that was a complete mess up on my part. And so when I went to the next one, um, A, I was trying to protect against this um this bias of I have to have this experience per se. Um, and I really was trying to come back on look, I feel very confident in like the volleyball side of things. And and while I haven't been a head coach in college, I've been an assistant for a long time, um, successful head coaching club and high school and all that, but I I try to get away from this idea of like a name or an experience versus what were our needs. And so I I went back to what do I need? And I had some other really good candidates, like like almost no-brainers as well. And I remember I I just kept going back to Ellen, was like, she literally checks off every single box I can. And uh, I remember when she came on her visit, like me pressing my my Ops Carly, who again is a phenomenal fit here. Um it was she was so enjoyable to be around. Um and just so well spoken, so intelligent, and just just so level-headed. Like I've I've literally never met anyone that is as she's just the same every day. I mean, our players will always talk about that, you know. They don't we do some stuff before practice and you know bring up examples of uh things we value in our program. And players have numerous times just shouted out all of them like we we love, we know like how hard things are, and every day you're just you. There's no there's never I'm upset, I'm angry, or whatever. I'm super happy, super down. Like she just is there. Um, but I think my system was really making sure, like I remember writing down a list like, what is this person gonna have to do and have to be great at? You know, what am I trying to get offloaded? What are pressy strengths? Um and Ellen just she just checked like every box, you know, and it became very easy once she kind of went through that a little more methodically. Um, and I I just had to try to protect against this idea of oh, I have to hire you know this person that's got 10 years of college experience and has done all this or whatever. Um, and and I'm very grateful I did. I mean, every time a head coach job opens, she's getting a phone call. So but it's great, she doesn't want to be a head coach. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

That's awesome. Being keep her here for a little bit longer at least. Uh that's great. That's great. Um I'll I'll bring it back to you here a little bit because I would imagine, you know, if we go back to you know, the that transition moment for you really diving into coaching more full time. Um I'm I'm interested, like along the way, I think many of us over the course of time, we start to realize that there's things that you once believed that maybe over the course of time a mum shift and so forth, um, some of that comes through your own internal reflection, your own growth as well as the dynamics. But I'm I'm interested. When you think back to kind of the earlier days for you as a coach, um, what are some of the things that maybe you've let go of or some of the beliefs that have changed for you as how you think about coaching or leadership?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Um I think when it comes to coaching, especially when I first started, um I didn't I I wasn't intentional about the relational stuff. Now, I think because I ran the club, my club teams like almost like a college team, it sort of ended up getting built in that way. But I'm definitely I'm a very intense person. Um and I I don't think I appreciated how much you have to make sure you're building in the relationship side. Now the benefit that I had was as an assistant, even though I was that intense, because I ended up being the person that was doing video with the players a lot. I'd see him outside the gym a lot. You just kind of naturally build some of that off-court um relationship where they kind of realize, hey, like, yeah, he's like super intense in the gym, wants us to get better, and it's never good enough. But he'd he's a normal dude outside the court and cares about us and you know, talks about family and and all that. Um but I think when I first was thinking about volleyball, when I first thought about being head coach, for me it was like all about like what's the system I do, who am I gonna recruit, you know, how am I gonna be great in the gym. And I I probably didn't think enough about how intentional you have to be with the the building relationships off the court piece. And I'm very fortunate that I figured that out over the years of you know, if you're if they don't think you care, like you will not get the best out of them, period. You know, there's just no way. And um so I knew that when it came to when I got my shot as a head coach, I had to be really, really great in that sort of off-court piece. Um you know, trying to find ways. How do you connect with them outside the gym? Because if you're playing for me, and again, fairly intense in the gym, and it's not a screaming thing, it's just a I don't know, uh I don't know how to explain it, but um I I probably need to be more positive. That's another thing I'm I'm trying to be better at, and I'll I might tell a story that you that's just crushing me right now, but um maybe I'll be vulnerable. Uh because I'll show I'll tell you another thing that I'm trying to involve and be better at. But um, I just think I when I got here, I was like, hey, I've you know, and I told I told Presley, Ellen, you know, Sean knows it's like I've got to be able to find time for the kids, you know. Like, so if they're in here, like I'll grab them and play a game, you know. Um any, you know, I grab them, go get coffee, go get lunch, go get dinner. Um, and I think that's really important, especially for for me, you know, and my personality and how I am in the gym. I think there's other coaches that are just so charismatic and just great in the gym, they probably don't even need to do it, you know, because they just they're super positive and fireed up, you know. Like I'm just not like that in the gym. Um and uh I I'll I'll tell you this story, even though this is uh I might later tell you to cut it. But uh so our setter last year, uh one of our setters, Sydney Henry, transferred and I love her. She's actually a student assistant for us this year, and I'm I'm so grateful that we can find a way to get her grad degree and she can help us. And uh just a wonderful, wonderful young woman. Um but we have a new set, we had two new setters this year, and you know, we're in your training, and um Sydney's been like warning him, like, hey, just like trust me, like you're not gonna get a lot of positive feedback, but like he's trying and he's doing everything he can to get better. Like and uh so I guess Sydney was telling our young freshman who's came early, she's really actually 17. She's like, Man, JJ's being so nice to you, like you have no idea. So it's Sydney's birthday the other day. I'm like, Sid, like what is this? Like, was I that bad? She goes, JJ, it was five weeks into spring before you gave me the first like good job. And I'm like, there's no way. She goes, No, literally, I went to volumetrics, which is our video system, I clipped it, and I have it saved in my phone. And she sent it to me. And like, she made this great set, and then I came over after we're in row one and she's kind of getting ready. And I go and I tap her on the back, like, good job. And like, come on, that can't be right. So, believe me, that has like been crushing me for a week now. Uh, because it's just a reminder, you know, like you gotta make sure you're giving them the props. Um, so that's another place I'm really trying to fall. Again, fortunately, I have good assistants that uh help with that, and and they call me out on stuff, you know. I mean, a few weeks ago and definitely called me out. And I think you gotta have a staff that's willing to do that. You know, I think one of the things I saw, especially in my old life, was you know, a lot of times you have like the senior guys, and people like are not willing to speak up, um, even if they think they're wrong. And that's a dangerous place to be, especially in the best, right? Um but I think if you're ever a leader and and you're not in a space where you're gonna get some feedback, then you're in you're gonna be in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

So I appreciate you sharing the story. Don't worry. We need to cut it. We can cut it later.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Uh hopefully everyone every people are gonna hear it just be crushing me for that.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

No, no chance. I I appreciate the vulnerability with it, and and I don't think you're certainly alone. I I think I think there's a couple of things that stand out. Like I think one of the things that comes up a lot in conversations that I've had with other coaches is like there are certain things as the leader that you can't delegate and relationships being one of them, right? And I think to hear you describe how that certainly has grown an emphasis. It was always important, and you being more even intentional now as as much if it if as ever to pour into those. Um I think one thing too that comes up is when you're the leader, um, it's a it's a good reminder too that the time that you spend with somebody like is gonna be potentially the highlight of their day. Right. And like when you're it's kind of like a CEO where it's like, hey, everybody wants to have time with the CEO, the head coach, the manager, whoever it is, it's like that, even if it's a five-minute symbol, it it's a good reminder, I think, for even me as I think about it. It may be another however many, and you're not saying this, but it may be another few minutes for you, but it's also how that has a really deep impact on those remote. What has what have you used as like what's kind of like your teller like the signals that you now use where if you feel like a relationship needs more investment or you feel like it is slipping, do you have a process now that you kind of lean on? And maybe it is some of that feedback, but is there what does that look like for you in terms of cultivating those relationships?

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Um you know, one, you A, as you get to you start coaching, you kind of could get some feels on good days and bad days. And I'm not nearly as good at that as my assistant, especially, but Presley has a very Presley's like an empath, so she's got a superpower of like knowing what someone's having a good day or a bad day. Um so I think that's one resource that I have that's really nice. Ellen's also very good at that. Um, but honestly, the way that I've tried to make it a little more systematic is uh we have a weekly uh uh performance meeting, which again I started years ago at Utah. We were started this like back in 2016. Um and I'm proud of what we started because I know a lot of other teams started um copying what we're doing. But uh the weekly meeting kind of has every touch point um for our players on it. So everyone, whether it's mental health, trainer, strength coach, uh academics, like whoever it is, all the coaches, um nutritionists, it doesn't matter. If they touch the athlete, we get them on that call. And not everyone can be on there every week, but for the most part, we get a pretty good group. And we just kind of go through all the players, you know. And um I think the other thing you learn, especially in college sports, is uh because there's so many little touch points everywhere, a lot of times a different touch point might hear about something, you know, oh, they broke up with their boyfriend, or you know, their their dog died or whatever, where they might not tell you uh or you might not know that, and then now you've got that, you know. And I think um that weekly meeting is is pretty good because a lot of that stuff will come out there. If you know, so if I've missed something, uh I might catch something in there. Um, yeah, but it really we have a check-in board every day, which I uh actually got from you know the former coach here. Um, and I thought it was a brilliant idea. She had a really good head coach she worked for also. And um, it's just a very simple check-in board, and it's got a color for how you're feeling the day, and they write kind of a focus. And uh so we use that as well, you know, because if we see them in red or I think our other one's orange or something like that, like I'm absolutely checking in on uh on that.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Yeah, I love the deliberate uh deliberateness of that. Um, you know, earlier you were talking about uh some of the meetings that you all do, you know, kind of building on some of those core values for your for the program. And and I'd be actually interested if if you can to kind of maybe give uh a little bit of context around like what are those kind of core pillars or values that you in essence want the you want to represent the program and be kind of defined by.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Yeah, um driven by purpose, uh rooted in connection, intentional in action, and committed to excellence are our program values. And um I think when I interviewed, I probably had nine of them, you know, and I think they were more cliche than they needed to be. And unfortunately, again, you know, I I we came down to those uh maybe two and a half years ago where I I just took my staff. I'm like, hey, I we gotta simplify these values. And you know, I want to get to a point where when a kid leaves our programs, they like they know like this is what we're about. Um and each of those are very rooted in some things I have with my coaching philosophy and just how I believe in building the program. So I think driven by purpose is easy. Like everyone has a core value system. Um and we try to make sure we understand our players' values, and I think when you go through some the process of figuring those values out as a human and then hearing them from others, you end up realizing that even two people that you think are pretty different, there's some connection. You know, there's a value that'll overlap. And again, but that's important, right? Because especially if two people are like vastly different, um what's the common ground or how do you how do you understand that person better? Um, and I think there's some stuff that comes out there. So we talk a lot about driven by purpose. Um the rooted in connection is just, you know, like I talked about the relationship side. You know, we talk about being connected to each other. So that's as a team. Uh, we're a very connected team. I think most kids that when they come in here are pretty shocked um at the culture. Um, but but I also talk about like, but you're connected to the coaches, the coaches are connected, and then we're connected to community. You know, we do a lot of community service. Uh, we try to be the best stewards, you know. I always tell my team when you're walking around campus and you see another coach, another player, like you're saying hi, you're not looking down at your phone and ignoring people. Um, those little things go a long way. And um so I just feel like it's just being connected, you know, good steward for your program. Um intentional action is intentional is a big word um that we talk about. I try to be very intentional in everything we do. Um and part of that is my protection against myself, uh just you know, not bouncing around. I think when it comes to even practice planning, uh better development plans, it's we try to be very, very uh intentional with how we're developing and and how we're teaching um to make sure we're hitting what we think are the important things to be great. And then the committed excess is just I mean, that's a little cliche, but I you know, I'll talk to my players a lot and about just hey, whatever your task is at hand, you should be trying to be the best that you can be at that. And you know, one of the things I've uh found over the years, um in my old life and even in this life is and I don't know, this might sound mean at times, but you know, a lot of people are really I mean, people are really good about complaining about stuff. I think m myself included. But you know, we're very lucky in in where we live in that you have agency. And it's It's not always easy, but at the end of the day, you know, I hear so many times people complain about their jobs or this or that. It's like Well, if you're really, really good at your job, you're not gonna be in that job very long. You're gonna get promoted away, you know, because most places recognize talent and they know, hey, the more elite someone is, I'm gonna move them up. I don't want them doing you know, cleaning toilet bowls. No, like this guy versus a rock star. Gonna manage something. Um so I just tell them like even if it's like the stuff you don't want to do, like can you be great at it and bring people around you be great at it, and you won't be in that job very long. You know, you won't be doing that very long. And you'll probably end up getting a better experience out of it. And you'll probably learn something out of it, you know, and and it sounds corny, and it's way easier to say than do. You know, I mean listen, I've done plenty of things from like F F that, like why the hell am I doing this? But at the end of the day, I think the most uh successful people are the ones that are like, hey, whatever it is you give me, I'm gonna crush it. You know? And it'll be better than anyone at that. Um so we talk about that of hey, like you know, academics is important, you know, it's very important to me. Um, especially from the world I came in where it mattered a lot how you did in school to kind of get the jobs that we were offering and to get in that industry. And I always tell them, like, I honestly don't care what your grades are, but I do care about your effort, you know, and if you're committed, you know, the athletes have unbelievable resources, tutors and mentors, and all these things. And I always tell them, I go, Hey, if you come in, you get a C, but you put in all the work, because we know, you know, going to the tutor, you're going to your mentor, you get you're being organized. I'm gonna high-five you all day long. Like, no problem. You put in the work, you're trying your hardest. I know that. But if you're skipping class and not turning assignments and getting a C, like, there's no excuse. You know, that that is not a commitment to X. So to me, it's just kind of an attitude of how you're gonna approach, you know, whatever you're whatever you're doing. So those are those are our values um of our program, and you know, we try to review those. And I think the players do a good job. Um, you know, every year we have a theme for the season or we have them put together some stuff, goals, and things, and I think they do a pretty good job of roping some of that stuff in and you know, belief as well.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

So I think even going back to the beginning when you talked about you and your staff purposefully investing time and energy into knowing the players' values is so I think integral, right? Like there's we know how important belonging is within a culture and within a team environment. And that is a balance of wanting to both be part of the group, but also be a unique contributor in that. And so you recognizing that I think is is fantastic. I I think that's actually a a really nice, you're one of the first ones that I think have spoken deliberately. It came up in a in a separate sidebar conversation with somebody I was talking about recently, too, because I think the other thing is like you, I don't know if you subscribe to this or not, but I I do think your values certainly play a foundational role in keeping you grounded and keeping you anchored amidst all the different, you know, circumstances and things that we confront. And um, the analogy that I've used is um no one would ever renovate their home while it's on fire. And like the point being, like a lot of people they kind of wait till crisis to then all of a sudden, like, hey, what's our foundation? What's our like now we need to like work on this? Or and then again, that foundation being your mission, your why, your values, and so forth. So I think the fact that you all do that deliberately before um they're pressure tested, I think says a lot. Um the one I could I could spend all the rest of this conversation diving into each of these values, but I but I want to actually double tap on the uh intentional one for a moment. Um I know when you went on, we had um Billy Allen on the show um a few months ago, and I listened to your interview with him, and I know you spoke a lot about that too, but I'm interested to like keep the mirror on you for just a moment and less so of how it shows up in your players, but like for you now, what is your process for being intentional as how as you grow and as you develop kind of alongside of your players? Like if you were to kind of peel back the curtain of how like how you're trying to can you've already kind of touched on it a little bit, but what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Um I think there's probably a couple things uh I've I've tried over especially the last you know year and a half to maybe self-reflect a little more. Uh I have a tendency to I just move on to what's next. And um sometimes it's good, sometimes I I would say losses I don't move on as well as I should, but uh um but I think I've I've tried to take some steps back to time to you know think about what I've gone through, how things have gone, what we might do differently. You know, like I'm self-reflecting a lot on Sydney, on the on my Sydney thing. Um because that crushes me because I you know I love the kid. Like and I really I mean I really love all the players. Uh so that's got me thinking a lot, but I I think I I try to self-reflect a lot more. Um I think I've tried to search for maybe a little more feedback, uh, even if I might not like it from people around me more. Um and then I think another big one is uh I try to be way more intentional about um making sure I keep some me time. Uh because that's never and I I I work a lot and I don't turn it off ever. I just I think when your first job is in an investment bank and you're working 120 hours a week, the idea of grinding of not grinding is just weird, you know, like um so it's just something I've I've done and I think um especially being a head coach, you know, trying to make sure I'm reminding my staff that if if I'm at work, they don't need to be at work. Like I don't care. Like as long as we're doing the things we gotta do, we gotta do. Um but also you know, I I felt like my first couple years here I was getting pretty out of shape again and I wasn't investing much in just taking care of myself, you know, and I'm older and uh so I probably think a lot more about longevity and not just like how long you're gonna live, but how healthy you're gonna live, you know. So I'd say I've I've cleaned up quite a bit on I really try to keep my mornings like my mornings before practice, you know, we tend to start between at nine or ten, and like that pocket before then is like my time to go to the gym. Uh just be on my own, and I just I never schedule anything at that time anymore. Um and that that's not how I used to be. It was like I would fill every single thing with whatever I could and whatever, and I think that was bad. And I think it was bad for even how I was at home, you know. Like um so I think that's one of them. The the other one is I've tried to be way, way, way more intentional and better with my wife of um making sure we have day nights, making sure in the evening I get even if it's just sitting and watching a TV show for an hour, like just a time where I'm just with her. I don't always get home in time for dinner. Um but I think those are some things I've tried to make sure I'm really, really um way more intentional and cognizant about. And that is not how I really was. Even when I started, like I was just you're trying to build a program and we're still building, like we are not done at all. Um, not even close to where we want to be. But um you know, fortunately I've had a very consistent staff here for a long time. We've got a lot of things that are pretty organized, and uh, but I but I realized I was letting a lot of too much stuff go um that with things that matter in my life, and so I think that's another area I've tried to be way more intentional. And the amount of times I've heard CEOs and literally say, like they say it, right? And and my you know, I was like that typical, like, oh whatever. I can work, you know, 18 hours a day, it just doesn't matter. Like I'll sleep five, and you know, sleep does matter, it turns out. Um and so I think those are some areas that I've tried to be um significantly more uh intentional and smart about. Because I don't want to burn out, you know, like I think you see you know it can happen. Um you never think it's you until it is, and uh I think you gotta protect against that.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

It's wild to me how discreet and subtle that kind of drift can happen as coaches, right? The drift away from I mean, that's kind of what I've often I had somebody ask me um about a year ago. They were like, okay, tell me in one word what you what you now that you want to I work with, you know, college and pro coaches, they're like, what problem do you help them solve? And I've landed on drift because I think that's what so many and I think that's what good coaches do for players, right? Like you have players that have goals, they have aspirations, and they have the type of player they want to become. And inevitably along the way, they just slowly drift off course, and you're like the rumble strips on the side of the road, right? Just little nudges, getting them back on track, reminding them the standards and so forth. But, you know, it's it's come up a lot in my work of like, well, who does that for coaches? And and I'll just share this, not that I don't know if it'll resonate or not for you, but it was a lot of what you shared resonates on a personal level because I have shared many times of like I'm like I am obsessed. Like I'm um there was a given time where I would be listening to a podcast or a book, like in the shower, and I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I'm just like, there was no space for silence or space for reflection and so forth. So anyway, on a personal level, I resonated. But the um the sentiment that was shared with me that I really liked um came from a book. Um, and they were like, you know, hey, we've all heard this term where like when you get on an airplane and you know, if you have kids, they always say, hey, make sure you put your oxygen mask on first before you up your kids. And the point, though, that she added that I thought was really good was we hear this and yet we still don't do it. And her point being, inevitably there will come a moment where you should probably put your oxygen mask on first and you don't. So her point was who in your life will put your oxygen mask on for you? And have you given them permission to do so? And I just like on a personal level, like that is something I've come back to a lot. And so I appreciate you sharing just kind of your own growth and and experience with it because I think it ties in so well to like really what the theme of the show is, the theme of like my my work with work with coaches is like, hey, I'll I don't I want you to win more both personally and professionally. And I don't want it to come at the expense of your health, your well-being, relationships, and and yourself. So anyway, I appreciate you as a sidebar. Um sharing that, I I want to be mindful of your time, JJ. And if I can, if I can sneak a last second question here. Um I I try to ask every guest this at the very end, but um JJ, what is something that you're proud of that maybe you don't always get an excuse to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 55:37

Well, you know my my smartest answer is nothing, but um one thing I'm very bad at self-reflecting. In fact, my staff does a nice job of reframing things for me plenty of times. Um You know, I think I'd say there's probably two things. Um one's definitely a more vulnerable answer, but uh just uh being able to kind of make it with my wife, you know, through uh just a lot of hard times, especially given the way we went uh the way I went about becoming a coach was definitely not well planned. Not intentional in any way, shape, or form. Um and I think that's the type of thing that like marriages don't typically survive. And uh the fact that we're able to make it work, I I'm very proud of that. And and I would say like I'm happier and with her than I've ever been, and she's happier with me, and like really, really good space there. Um But there's a lot there's a lot of ups and downs, you know, when you go through that and you take a 95% pay cut and literally qualify for food stamps, uh that puts a lot of uh strain, you know. Like there's all kinds of stressors that go into a marriage, and and that's a massive one. Um so I I'm very proud of that. And then but counter that, even though I'm I'm proud that it like I made this jump, you know. I think it's easy to I was in an industry where I was probably just a few years away from making like crazy money. Um and just walking away and and going with something that I was so passionate about, you know. Um that's one of my new terms with my team when I get a little heated. I'm like, you guys, I'm not angry, I'm just passionate. Um which now my staff throws in my face all over the it's hysterical, you know. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Uh that doesn't surprise me. That's that's good. I love when those things get spun.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Yeah. Um, but I think I just felt I found this passion, you know, and and it's that corny statement of find something you love, you'll never work a day in your life. And if I could encourage any young person, it's absolutely true, you know. Like no matter like we have all kinds of bad that happens and stress and probably work just as much or more than I ever did in my past life. Um but man, I love what I do, and I I feel so grateful and and I'm proud of the fact that I I pulled the trigger and like I went for it, you know, and it wasn't like right away. You know, there were plenty of times where like maybe I should go back. Maybe this is the right thing. Even in college, you know, it took me 10 years to get my head job. And you know, I felt I was ready long before that, but you know, various circumstances and you know, it would would have been easy. I could have easily gone back and and helped run the old club I was at and probably make really good money doing that. But um, you know, I'm proud that I kind of stuck it through and I've been able to, you know, start building this thing here. And it's it's really, really fun, special to me.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

That's awesome. No, I think that's a great way to to cap it too. So JJ, I'm again, I just want to thank you for for taking some time. I know your schedule, you have plenty on your plate, a lot of people asking for your time and energy. So the fact that you made some time with this and you were really intentional and I think thoughtful and also vulnerable with your responses, it means a great deal. And I think there's a lot that those that are listening um can pull from the conversation. So so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

You bet. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. And uh I love what you're putting out there for us coaches, it's really fun to listen. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to wrap up by saying thank you to JJ. There's a lot in this conversation that I know can resonate with coaches and leaders at all levels. And for those of you listening, if some of the themes that we talked about today hit home, whether it's building an environment, becoming more intentional in your leadership, managing your own energy, or just finding ways to win without sacrificing yourself in the process, just know that these are the exact kind of areas that I love to spend time supporting and helping coaches with and leaders work through. So if you're feeling stuck, you're trying to get clarity on where you're headed, what might be getting in the way, or what could be an, in essence, effective game plan for your career, for your life to move forward, I'd love to help. I offer free coaching calls where we can dive into your situation, get clear on the gap between where you are and where you want to be, and start helping mapping you out. How do we close that gap? So if that's something you're interested in, feel free to reach out. There's a link in the show notes where we can connect further. I'd love to chat more. And as always, if you're finding these conversations valuable, it would mean a lot if you rate, review, or subscribe to the show. It's gonna help more people find these conversations and allow us to continue bringing you incredible guests like JJ. I appreciate you being here, and we'll see you next time on Win More Live Better.