Bobby Muuss | Head Men's Soccer Coach, Wake Forest Univ. | "Coaching is lonely."

Bobby Muuss is the head men’s soccer coach at Wake Forest University and one of the most successful coaches in NCAA Division I soccer over the past decade. 

Since taking over the program in 2015, he has led Wake Forest to the most wins in the country during that span, along with multiple ACC Championships, eight Sweet Sixteen appearances, six Elite Eights, and two College Cup runs.

Prior to Wake Forest, Muuss served as the head coach at the University of Denver, where he led the program to multiple NCAA Tournament appearances and conference championships, while earning conference Coach of the Year honors. Before that, he spent time as an assistant coach at Wake Forest under Jay Vidovich, contributing to one of the most successful stretches in program history, including a national championship.

Muuss has also developed dozens of professional players, including MLS draft picks and national team talent, while earning multiple ACC Coach of the Year honors at Wake Forest.

Here's some notable highlights from our conversation:
[6:13] — Inheriting a Powerhouse Program

[11:27] — Finding Your Coaching Identity

[17:00] — Leadership Starts with Self-Work

[21:29] — The Accountability Gap Today

[27:34] — Confidants in the Locker Room 

[29:32] — Making Meetings Matter

[32:52] — "Earn the Jersey" Culture

[36:15] — Patience in Development

[40:46] — Building Your Coaching Staff

[44:58] — Accountability Starts at the Top

[47:08] — Coaching Is Lonely

[52:24] — Advice for Future Head Coaches

[55:56] — Stocks Analogy

[1:00:15] — The Impact Beyond the Game and Wins

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I've been using my players like when they come in. I said, What type of stock are you?

unknown 0:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Like, even as a player, what type of stock are you? Right. You have, we know you have high potential, but you're not performing, right? And you're dropping. Should I sell you?

unknown 0:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

I mean, I don't, I don't, it's it, but honestly, that that's the thing. It's like you just want this consistency of improvement. You know there's going to be a little bit of loophole, but that's what we want, right? Um, you don't want guys, I don't want guys depreciating on my dime, right? I've been using stocks a lot with our guys.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Welcome back to the Win More Live Better Podcast. Now, before we jump into today's episode, I do want to share a quick update and announcement with everyone. For the foreseeable future, I'm actually going to start releasing my guest interviews every other week instead of weekly. Now, this shift is kind of boiled down to two things. One, it's making sure that I'm being intentional with my time and energy across some of the other endeavors and kind of projects that I've got going on between the one-on-one work that I'm doing with coaches and leaders, my group coaching programs, but also I've got some other kind of exciting opportunities on the horizon. And so I want to make sure that I'm being kind of intentional to practice what I preach and protecting my time and energy for those things as well. But it's also secondarily gonna be about creating more space to, I think, do these conversations with each guest a little bit more justice. In other words, I want to make sure that I'm highlighting each guest a little bit more fully, sharing some of the key moments, and really just helping all of you get a little bit more out of every episode. So this is gonna give me an opportunity to showcase some of these moments uh a little bit more between episodes on social as well as through other means as well. I'll still be releasing multiple kind of short form and solo episodes between these guest interviews as well. So you can still expect those. Um, and those will still be a great way to stay plugged into stories, insights, and lessons that I'm exploring in real time with those that I partner with. And one more thing for these guest conversations. From time to time, I actually am gonna start fielding some questions from you all in advance of these interviews so I can bring your voice directly into these conversations at the end of each episode. So be on the lookout for that. I'll have more details that come in my newsletter, which is winning with words that you can find uh online, but also I'll share some of this on social as well. Now, with all of this being said, today I'm really excited and eager to share with you my conversation that I had with Bobby Mews. Bobby is the head men's soccer coach at Wake Forest University, and quite simply I think he's one of the more successful coaches in college soccer over the last decade. Since taking over the program in 2015, Bobby has led Wake Forest to the most wins in NCA Division I men's soccer over that span. He's won multiple ACC championships, he's been part of eight Suite 16s, six Elite Eights, and two college cup appearances, and he and his programs have produced a level of sustained excellence that I think very few in the country can match. He's also developed dozens of professional players, including first round picks and national level talent while building one of the most competitive and respective cultures in the game. So in our conversation today, we discuss what it actually feels like to take over a program that's kind of already operating at a championship level and the pressure that can come with that as a head coach. We talk about the moment he realized that he needed to stop trying to coach like someone else, and he needed to define his own authentic voice and style. We talk about accountability, discipline, and standards, and how they're becoming harder, but also more important than ever for student athletes. We discuss why being a head coach can feel incredibly lonely and how he's learned to balance high standards with genuine care and connection. Now, all this to say I'm incredibly grateful for those of you who continue to tune in to these guest interviews and support the show. If you're finding value in them, I greatly appreciate it if you take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It's gonna help more people find the podcast, but it's also gonna allow us to continue to bring other incredible coaches, leaders, and experts who can help us all win more and live better. So without further ado, let's get into my conversation with Coach Bobby Mews. Well, welcome back to uh a new episode of the Win More Live Better podcast. And for those of you that have been tuning in, uh, I'm bringing you uh a new coaching guest today. I'm really excited. Uh, this has been one that has been on the radar for a while. I'd actually heard him in another podcast, uh, the coaching crossover podcast. And as I was listening to some of his answers, you just kind of start to pick up on some things from some people where you're like, man, there's just more, there's more depth there. There's more insights that I would really love to extrapolate and kind of dive into. Um, and so really more than anything, I'm just excited to bring you today the headmen soccer coach at Wake Forest University, uh, Coach Bobby Mews. So uh, Bobby, I just want to first off, I'm I'm mindful of the life of the Division I head coach. There is no offseason, there is no down period oftentimes. There's always something on your plate. So the fact that you're doing this means a great deal. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Well, I appreciate it and appreciate the compliments. I'm I'm glad you enjoyed the podcast, and I'm I'm excited to see what we can we can ponder up here today.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Yeah, yeah. There's um, you know, I when I was kind of diving more into your coaching journey, I was like, man, there there were some really good, I think, unique and interesting threads that we could start with. And and I think one being, you know, you started at Wake Forest back in in 2015. And so you've got some, I can only imagine how that has evolved, how you have evolved over the last 10 years, which I think we'll get into. But I'm also mindful that when you took over that program, it was a program that had already had a really rich history, like a championship kind of history. And and I I'm mindful of how that can also create its own set of challenges as you take over a program to build off of that and also put your own maybe authentic and unique fingerprint on it. So I I would just love to know as a starting point what that experience was like, how you kind of approached that, um, and and what were maybe some of the the challenges alongside that as well for you.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Well, I mean, challenges it was is a is a really good word, but like citing challenges. Um there was excitement about you know coming to Wake Forest. Um obviously I have a great relationship with the former head coach, Coach Jay Vitovich, and what he's built and that tradition. And you want to try to hold on to as much of that tradition as you possibly can, but then putting your own twist or your own hands in it, right? I know um, you know, a little side story for you too, Zach, is I was an assistant at Wake Forest under Jay prior to going to the University of Denver. So obviously, as we know in college athletics, it's always changing. Um, but for the most part, it is as I had a good feeling for through tradition at Wake Forest, the alumni at Wake Forest, the community and the importance of the community at Wake Forest, um, the relationships that the players have with each other, generational relationships. It's a very unique program that way. So those were things I was super cautious, and and knowing um that culture that I I mean, I felt I was a little, I had a little hand in it in the six years that I was here prior to building it where it is, um, and just paying homage to all those people prior to me, coaches, players, um, and and I wouldn't say tiptoeing into the position, but um making sure that I did it in a in a mindful way. Um it was, I remember uh a year before I accepted a job at Wake Forest, I told Jay, Coach Vidoris, that I didn't want the job. And then so when it when it did open, like if he ever left, we were like fooling around because he was tinkering me with some professional opportunities at the time. And he's like, Well, why don't you want the job? And I'm like, Well, because I don't want to be the one to mess it up. I want to be the one that comes back and fixes it, right, after someone else messes it up. So because building is easier than than than maintaining or trying to excel. Um, so when the job came open, he was like, I thought you didn't want it. I'm like, Well, how do you say no? Right, really, when it opens. Um, I remember having my first player meeting when I got into Wake with Ian Harks, and Ian is a legendary player at Wake Forest, won the Herman Trophy. Um, still playing in San Jose now. And he goes, You mentioned in the team meeting that it's gonna be different. How is it gonna be different? And I looked him right in the eyes and said, I don't know. You know what I've been, I just know I'm not Coach Jay. And I knew um uh I learned as a young head coach when I got to the University of Denver, I had two very good people in my life at Coach Ray Reid at UConn and Jay Vitovich at Wake Forest. And then when I went to go on to be a head coach, I tried to be both of them and me. And I was not successful at that, you know, managing players, um, ups and downs, where I just wasn't really putting my fingerprint. I was trying to be someone I wasn't. So I knew that was extremely important to me when I got to Wake is I know I'm not Jay. I don't, you know, I mean, I'd love to have his knowledge, but I know I'm not him, and I have to do it my way and then try to combine all those things that I've learned in the past to make a foundation forward. You know, if it's our core values, you know, um not just replicating what Jay had, right? Um, with the way we do things, if it's pregame, if it's post-game. Um, but I did want to play respect to the traditions and everything that's been gone that I feel like I was a part of as well. So um I think staff is extremely important, right? Making sure that you have people that are on the same page with you and and and have the same vision. And then you meet with every player, right? And with any change, there's some turnover and there's some changes in personnel. Um, but the uh stress I remember my first uh it was with the student athletic advisory council, no committee. No, it wasn't student, it was the teachers. And I sat down and he introduced me, and a guy came over to me and he goes, How does it feel to be replacing the most winning, the winningest coach in Wake Forest history? And I'm like, uh, nice to meet you too, big guy. And I do like this, I tell people all the time, like we're in our spring season now, and I think we're oh we're oh one and one, right? And um, I told people we were oh three and three at the end of my first spring here. And I I I remember calling my wife at the time, I said, Stop packing. I may be coming back. So it wasn't easy. Um, but that fall, I think we went 19 and 2 or something like that, lost in the quarterfinals. So it's uh, you know, it was a pretty special year, difficult but special.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

I want to get into more of that here in a moment, but I think one thing that you described that I've definitely heard and you and I've seen with a lot of coaches that I've been around is there is that adjustment when you become a head coach or as you you step into coaching, like sometimes like the only thing we know is who we've seen and who we've been mentored by. And and like there's value in that. There's so many lessons and things that you can draw and pull from those individuals that have been mentors and guides. And yet, as you described, it it maybe took a bit for you to then find your own authentic. What did that shift look like for you? Or what kind of helped you, or at what point was did you start to realize like, okay, like I need to start to find or create my own authentic way of leading?

SPEAKER_02 11:28

I um I think it's two is is number one, I tried to be, you know, coming from Wake, I did feel, and and it sounds arrogant, but I did feel I was one of the better people at what I did in recruiting, you know, um, you know, at the level that we were at, right? Like when I left Wake, we had the number one recruiting class in the country and they they went on to win a national championship, not because of that, but just great players, right? Um, and I think uh so I tried to do all the recruiting, not all of it, but then I was the one that was doing a little bit more of the selling, right? And then when the kids come in, then you know that you become what you're trying to be their confidant, but you're also the disciplinarian and and the one that's holding them accountable and the one making decisions. And it's very different, like being an assistant coach where guys come to you and I would support my bosses back 100%. Um, but uh you're trying to do both. And I think that's confusing for a young man, you know, uh, and and I didn't deal with that well. Um, I would tell you right now, if if the players in my early days or even mid-days at Denver, uh, they probably look at my success now and are like shaking their heads like what's going on, right? Um, but I did evolve. I I I have to give a lot of credit, is some of the things that hit me the most is bad years, right? I mean, we had some inconsistencies where when I first got there, it was pretty easy. And I say easy is like, like I said, is to turn a corner is easy. You know, we we won, uh, we tie for the regular season championship the first year, didn't get in the NCAA tournament. The next year we win it, we get in the NCAA tournament for the first Division I NCAA tournament program history, and you're like, oh, this is great. And then the next year you go five and ten, right? And then you go on a good run, you win the you win the conference tournament again, you get in the tournament, and we win five and eleven. Um, and those inconsistencies had a lot to do with you're bringing players in early on, um, really shaping. We had a top 20 recruiting class my first year here, first year at Denver. Um, and then some of those guys in year three aren't playing as much because you're recruiting, I'm not gonna say better, but fresher and they had the mentality uh as the program was evolving, and that was hard, right? Um, and and I've never dealt with that before, you know, and I think you learn from that. I had a um uh someone that was friends with my boss, right? And a fan of Wake, uh, sorry, I'm gonna get my good universities, University of Denver, and an alumni of theirs names Josh Broadwick. And Josh was, you know, he did like major company consulting, he still does it now, and he'll reach out to me every so often. And he says, I'd love to sit down with you. And and first off, you're like, I don't want to do it, but I was like, I was in need, and really we went through like a deep dive on staff, myself, what works, what doesn't work. Um, and then I put it down, like my goals, my ambitions, the standards, the expectations, and basically made a book um that we presented to the team. And and it's even, and I remember um Ron Graham at uh University of Denver looking through it, and he goes, You have all these expectations for yourself, like for the team. What's the expectations for you? And that hit me, and I was like, that's pretty cool. So putting yourself out there, right? A little bit vulnerable is like, hey, if we're not meeting these, you can call me out on this. Uh, and then as I evolved, and and now I'm at Wake Forest and I tell guys all the time, if if you feel I'm not meeting the expectations, you have to tell me. You have a voice, right? This is your career too. So I think that document, those meetings, um, and and putting yourself out there, and then even when you're recruiting, this is the expectation, right? It's really, really high accountability, high structure. Um, and there's a lot of student athletes like, I want that, I want that, I want that. And then when they get here, like, whoa, you know, I didn't expect it. Why didn't you expect it? We went over this, you know. So um, it's a little bit more black and white, I guess. You know, even if it's, you know, if it's kid doesn't do his study hall and he misses two minutes, he doesn't play on the weekend. I didn't do that. I didn't suspend him. He suspended himself when he decided to to take a shortcut. Because in the end, that's gonna, that's gonna cost you in life, it's gonna cost you on the field. And um, my ultimate goal right now is yes, we want to win championships, but we want to use the game to teach kids life lessons, right? And prepare them for the future. And and here I'm a 50-year-old man now, and life is not easy. You know, every time you think you turn a page, you know what I mean, like the wind blows and you lost your page and you're starting all over again.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Um, so that that that's a little bit more about like my journey there's uh a thought I had recently where, and I've shared this with some some of the coaches that I now kind of work with in one-on-one uh partnerships, and the idea that like no one would ever renovate their home while it's on fire. And the point being, what you would generally want to do is build your foundation before before crisis, before you know failure, before you reach a point where you become you know burnt out or exhausted. And I think hearing you describe what in essence that document represented, I don't know if this is how you would necessarily define it, is it it sounds like it gave you a really solid foundation to be anchored to as a coach and a guide for how you want it to show up, how you want it to lead. And I could um I I I wanted to just expand just for a moment on that. And what do you feel like changed for you once you put that, you know, those thoughts to paper and you had that declared, that book, what changed for you or what did you gain from that that maybe you didn't have prior to?

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Well, I also you know, I I would be remiss if I didn't bring up two other things that like along with that that come in that same time is in in in my guys' know too, and I I never, you know, um is you know my relationship with the Lord grew. I didn't have one, uh, and I thought my faith grew in that, where um I spent more time learning and learning about myself and that relationship. And I think that's that's been a pillar now of my life and the way I want to raise my children. And I use you know, faith-based lessons with conversations with my players, and I I look at it, this doesn't matter if you believe what religion you are, um, you know, if if you have a religion, whatever it may be, it's life lessons, right? And just being a good person. And I think that has paid a large uh I have a lot more empathy in what I do and understanding and grace because I know I'm given a ton. Uh, and the other thing is just my you know, taking time for myself and working out and trying to at least clear my mind. Um, I had a really, really good um, you know, friend and partner in Eric Johnson, which is the former head coach at um the University of Denver and Boston College, now he's the uh, you know, associate head coach or assistant at Fairfield Women's Basketball, where we were both going through a difficult time at the same time. And um that relationship I think really grounded me as well. So between meeting and understanding that I needed to make some changes, you know, um, you know, uh giving my life to Christ and and and and becoming stronger in my faith, and then just worried about me, um, I think that's a big piece of it as well. You know, it's not just one book and just say, hey, here. Uh and it you also, you know, when you when you have bad years and you have players that you think you have a really good relationship with, and you find out maybe you don't have a really good relationship with them for one way or the other, that's humbling, right? So if that's the case, then we really have to evaluate how intentional those relations are and and how are we getting more out of that relationship because even nowadays it's really hard, right, seeing what's going on in college athletics versus what I believe in and what I want to do, right? Um, I literally was on my walk, I told you, and I text a kid that I've been pretty hard on over the last couple of weeks, and he came in the office before we left and we met, and he says, I forgot these last two weeks how much you care about me. And it was hard. And I was really mad. And I just I texted him, I said, Hey, you know, and we got it out, and I said, Don't ever question that I care about you, right? No matter how hard I am on you. I said, because sometimes it's extremely frustrating knowing the the talent that you have that I'm failing. That frustration is at me, right? In a lot of ways that I'm failing, getting it out of you. Um, so don't ever do that again, right? Not in a bad way. Um, but I I say that because you have to look deeper. And like, what am I doing to miss, right? If you have a bad year, kids shouldn't change the way they view you as a coach, right? They have three good years, you're awesome. One bad year, you're not. Same thing with parents. Like three they start three years, they don't once, and now I'm a bad person. I'm done with that, right? I I don't coach for them, right? I coach to develop kids, and uh because that's not the way life is, Zach. Right? You do three years, really good job in the business world, you're a doctor and you have three years of perfect surgeries, and you really mess up your fourth year, guess what? You're not gonna be a doctor your fifth, you know, and and that's life. Um, so that's the way we try to that that probably opened my eyes the most.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Also heard you talk about the constant evolution that you've gone through and how you're still continuing to learn and grow day by day by the people that you come into contact with and how you how you study and and everything. I wanna I'd be interested, and this doesn't have to tie in just to that quote unquote book, but some of your your pillars as a coach, your principles and things like that. How have those evolved now over the last 10 plus years or so? I know that you know when you first kind of started to put some of those down, it was even beyond um before you took the job at Wake, but now 10 plus years, how have those, what have been some of those things that have maybe changed or things that you used to believe as a coach or as a leader that maybe now you you you don't hold on to as tightly?

SPEAKER_02 21:30

It's a tough one because there's not a lot has changed in that, you know, and uh you don't want to be stubborn because you have to continue to evolve. And I think obviously coaching you have to evolve if it's structure, principles of play, game model, you have to because the game is changing, players are coming from different backgrounds. But I still believe right now there's a lack in uh accountability. I think there's a lack in discipline. I feel like the best players in the country are given more freedom um than ever. Um the best players. Players are given captains armbands with no leadership ability besides their their talent, the way they communicate with each other, right? Because they haven't been held accountable. Most kids that we recruit don't actually go to high school. They go to online school where all they're doing is playing. So they don't know, like, you know, like just like how to deal with older people or younger people and lead by example or verbally. Um, and and you see a lot of like non-natural leadership, and I think that's accountability. So that stuff hasn't really changed for me because I do think there's a lack of it. And I like, you know, not just because I graduated from the University of Connecticut, but I love listening to Danny Hurley talk about like these kids need it, or Tom Izo, I think, is the man when you're talking about like has he probably evolved in the way he's coached basketball? Yes, but he's consistent with the way that he that he coaches men, um, you know, with a toughness that that's what life prescribes in some ways. And I think um I learn a lot, like I mean, from watching other coaches. I also uh the most humbling thing that you could do is mic yourself up, right? Uh like I like I don't everybody thinks you enjoy it, like my language changes for sure. And I think I that that's a good thing. It should be changed all the time. Um players goes, coach has a lot today. I'm like, oh, okay. I have a no square Friday now with a fine jar. Um my one of my players is doing it to me, and uh and and I and I love it, right? Because you have those relationships where guys feel they can hold you accountable too and be open. That's something that wasn't the case years ago. It was like more of like, I can't talk to him, I don't want to bring up anything to him. And I think that's hours and hours and hours of working and and peeling back the layers of these guys to have intentional relationships. And I do think that is something, Zach, that now with this very transactional world of college athletics, you have to work harder at. I tell people, as you get a young man, it's like, why does a guy care about me? Why is he asking about my family? Why is he encouraging me to call my parents? You know, and then after a while, I was like, holy cow, this guy really cares about me. Now, when someone really cares about you, guess what? I can get more out of him and he can get more out of me. Um, I think some of the best coaches that I've been in contact with is some of my players, right? That make me a better coach or challenge you in different ways. Um, and I think sometimes those players that challenge you, you tend to push to the side. Those players that challenge you, it's like they're reasoning you're there in your life as well, right? But I know that's not really maybe the answer you wanted, Zach, in terms of the evolution of coaching, but I think it's harder and harder now to peel back the layers, you know, of players because they're all coming from transactional situations and what they see on social media is everybody's getting paid and you transfer every year. And I was worried about that, right? A couple of years ago is the first time, right, that a player in the ACC can transfer to the ACC back in the day, be like, okay, you're in the best soccer conference in the country, hands down, where are you gonna go? Right? And you could be hard. And I was like, oh man, maybe I should be easier on these guys because I may be playing against them next year, right, in my own conference. But I was like, get over that, right? If someone, you know, if if it's because you're being hard on them, um, that's not gonna that that doesn't breed success. And um so just trying to to peel back the layers on guys, and it's sometimes it's extremely thankless. Right? It's like I feel like a referee a lot of times, right? You don't the referee just gets no praise. You know what I mean? He just comes and goes, you know if he's doing a bad job. No one says, dang, that was really good referee at the end of the game. No one says that. That's what I feel like a lot of times. But you just gotta keep grinding every once in a while someone says, Hey coach, I really appreciate you. And you're like, okay, I can do this for another week, you know, and then with the same energy.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Hey coaches and leaders, I got a quick question for you. You spend a lot of time building game plans for those you lead, but when was the last time you built one for yourself? If you're looking to sharpen your leadership skills, strengthen your team culture, or find better ways to support and challenge your athletes in the mental game, I'd love to help. I'm offering a free coaching call where we can talk through your current challenges and create a simple game plan for what might move the needle most for you, your players, and your program. Most coaches I know obsess over developing their team, but they neglect the person in the mirror. This call is a chance to invest in you because a better you is going to produce a better them. And if that sounds helpful, you can grab a time at Callinly.com slash Zach Brandon. That's Callinly.com slash Zach Brandon, or just check the link in the show notes. I'd love to connect and explore how I can best support you. Those are those moments that yeah, they fill the tank and they're like, all right, we're like good. I I I'm on the right track. And and I um what I one thing that I appreciate you describing is you've mentioned challenge now several times, but but I think the importance of it being reciprocated. In other words, like how you can create this high challenge environment for your players to help them grow and become the best versions of themselves, and also how that can be reciprocated. Like you can look in the mirror and make sure, like, okay, I'm holding myself to that as well. And I'm asking my players and my staff to support me in that regard, to hold me accountable and things like that. And I think that's extremely powerful when those blow both directions. Um, and it's not flawless, actually.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

It's not flawless. No, yeah, yeah. That sounds like it's flawless. No, it's not. It's it's it's a work in progress for sure. And I think the best thing that you can have as a coach is is confidence and confidance in your locker room. Um, like uh a few years ago, I had a six-year kid, Jake Swallon, and Jake's been through everything here injuries, um, some discipline issues with me, um, you know, not with me, just like just making silly mistakes as every young kid does every once in a while, but the belief was never changed in him. He's gone from starting a season one and three to winning an ACC championship to making an NCAA tournament run, been in a Final Four. So it's like, remember Jake when we did this? And he's like, uh-huh. And then he's talking to the guys, like when you have those people in your locker room, right, that have been bought in for long periods of time and they're not worried about themselves and they're worried about, you know, the culture of the program, those are the best coaches you got. Right. And and they take time too, right? Because they have to, they have to believe, they have to trust. Um, and in in a in a transactional world, trust is, you know, that is a a very fine commodity right now. Like it it's it's hard to find and you got to earn it each and every day.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

I appreciate the humility of of how this is obviously ebbs and flows and not always going to be flawless. And and and also I'm I'm interested when you because you're not certainly the first coach that I've heard talk about some of those challenges around you know, holding players accountable, some of the shifting dynamics and how the landscape has changed for everybody involved. And what are some things though that you and your staff have found help that process and or be um to make I don't know if I should say it makes it easier per se, but what are the things that you all have been really intentional with to ensure that you're able to hold players to high standards and to and to challenge them in in those ways?

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, I th I I think you know, first it's the meticulousness stuff on the field, right? And then them having hopefully, hopefully, um clear understanding of what we're doing and how we're trying to do it. And I and that it goes back to a little bit of the book, but more of just repetition and talking about it over and over again. But then what we do is our again, I say every, every is an emotional word, but we do most weeks. Um most weeks we meet with every player uh individually, and it takes a lot of time, uh, especially when you're playing Tuesday, Friday. Um, but sitting down, it could be 15 minutes, minute, it can be 30 minutes, it could be an hour based on what's going on in this young man's life. Um, but more of like, how are you doing? You know, how the especially the freshman, like how are you doing, what's going on, how's the transition, how the guy's treating you. Um, and we go over video. It could be training video, it could be game video, um, and then really trying to be on the same page. And I learned this a while back, started doing this at Denver too. It's like when you at the end of the season, sometimes it's the first time a player hears what they needed to do to be successful, or a mom and dad calls and say, you know, what do you think? I'm like, I don't know. I I don't think he likes me. I think he likes the older guy, or he likes the younger guy. I'm like in these meetings. No, this is this is what we see. Um and I think that's been helpful. Our end-of-the-year meetings are a lot shorter, they don't have to be hours because we're going over a season in review because we do it each and every week. So every Monday we meet as a staff and we go over how we're going to break the players down and why. Hey, and my assistant can say, Hey, I think you need to take this guy. Or my trainer may say, Hey, you know, he's been he's been a little down. I think you need to talk to him. Um, so we we divvy up the group that way. Uh, go over video, and I think those are you know, ask questions. And I always end the meeting as well, what can we do better for you? What do you need from us? Um, where you're not just this is what we need from you. What do you need from us as well? And and I think that's been certainly helpful for me, right? And in some of those conversations, maybe they don't go exactly the way you thought they were going, or but that's when you know they're being honest, right? I don't need someone to go, uh-huh-uh-uh-uh, and then go out and do something completely different. And believe me, I throw those conversations at them in the next training. I just wasted 30 minutes of my life, you know, talking about this, and this is what you're out there doing. Um, but I I believe those have been extremely helpful.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

I think this ties into, I mean, we we obviously don't necessarily need to have you extrapolate or or or expand on all the little details and ins and outs of of that book, but I think what we're starting to gather here, I think, are some of those core values, some of those core pillars and things like that that shape not only your own leadership philosophy, but really this environment and this culture that you're you're you're building and that you're continuing to nurture. And one of the things that I've heard you you share on on multiple previous kind of conversations is this um, I don't know if you call it a mantra or not, but this idea of like earning the jersey and and what that represents for the program and and just kind of, you know, before you maybe define some of it, I I'd be interested if you could maybe share just where that originated from and and really the what was the underlying significance from it that you that you saw when you first started it.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Well, I'm not taking credit for any of it because it started that's something that is a tradition and verbiage and mantras, like you said, like just um a culture piece before I was a head coach here. So it started back when I was an assistant. I don't even remember, like being completely honest, it was just something that we talked about um a long time ago. Um, it was earning the jersey, and it's something that you know, when you come in and like I said, coming in for somebody in a program that had a lot of history, there's things that you want to continue. And it was something that was talked about so much when I was here as an assistant and guys fighting to be on the field. Like I always tell people all the time, I was like, I want to have competition in every single position, right? So back in the day with this 9.9 scholarships, right? We got 30 guys on a team, uh, and parents want full scholarships. I'm like, okay, I can give out 10 fulls at a school at the time is 75, 80 grand, it's 90 now, right? And but we wouldn't have competition in any position, right? And no, your son wouldn't get better, right? If we had one injury, we wouldn't be able to compete with somebody. I'm gonna get some of it wrong every once in a while. Um, so earning a jersey came where like everybody on the roster was competing uh to be on the field each and every day. And it's not competing in a classroom, competing in the community, competing on the field uh with every opportunity. And that's something that continued. I remember there was an old, we still have it, it's like an old sign that says earn the jersey that I think Koch Vidovich had made, and you put it somewhere, and it's still like on it, like it's on our equipment shed. Like, I mean, it looks bad, but it's still there. Every preseason I reach back out to an alumni, either two or three that I feel before me, during me, um, have basically defined what a Wake Forest soccer player looks like and they live their life that way. And I ask him to give a little video, and the players don't know who they are, and we put them in the book, and then they do a video for us when we're presenting about what that meant to them. Uh, we just had a Hall of Fame inductee, uh, James Riley, and I brought like nine or ten of my players to the Hall of Fame, and he was talking about it. So it's like this is years and years, 20, 25, 30 years in the making. It's not just something that that that goes away. But um, yeah, we want competition in every position. Guys come to to Wake Forest because they want to play with the best, they want to compete against the best, um, and iron sharpens iron.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Within those environments, not only do they sharp iron sharpen iron in terms of just the physical skills and abilities, but obviously there is a strong mental component, right, within that, which you're describing. Outside of just that competitive environment that you and your staff are kind of cultivating there, what have you found to be most helpful in terms of kind of shaping that aspect of it? Because I think this also ties into um even that idea of like the challenge and high standards and like kind of the shifting landscape in like how kids are training and the environment they're coming into. So for you all, how are you finding success also in nurturing like the mentality of your players beyond just the the competitive um in practice kind of environment? And I know you weren't just saying in practice, but even beyond it as well.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Yeah, I mean, we always say it's like every I mean, everyone goes, what are you looking for in a player? What are you looking for in a player? I mean, our jobs in terms of identification is not hard. It's well nowadays a lot of soccer players are signing professional contracts early, so it's like who's gonna be a pro, who's not gonna be a pro. That's hard. But we're identifying, hopefully identifying the best, in our opinion, was based off our game model of positionally who are the best, right? And then we try to get them. So I I say that because now what you're doing is you're bringing in someone that is highly rated, highly talented, probably has an opportunity to be a professional at one stage, you know, down the road, some earlier than others, and they're coming in, and now they're playing with maybe someone that has started for three years and competing. Um, I think when we start, obviously there's there's talk about that in the in the recruiting process too. I don't lie to kids, you know. Uh, we're bringing you in for a reason. Um, good field players play, right? Like we have we have re-entry, it's not like professional games, so that's one thing. But number two is you the guys that are playing over them, if they're playing over them, came into the same exact situation. So uh the understanding of okay, you think that guy, and and then respecting the position as well, right? And respecting the work rate, respecting the talent, I think is really important. Um, but you got to look at Johnny came as a freshman, he's an all-American, so on and so forth, and you know, played limited his first and second year, and now he's a two-time All-American. I said, like you have to just trust the process. Easier said than done, right? Because nowadays everybody wants instant success. I mean, I looked at two things on Amazon the other day. One comes on Monday, one comes on Thursday. I got the one on Monday, and I don't even know if it's as good, you know. But that's that's what that's what kids want. So, um, but I think storytelling, I think um, guys on the roster, even if they're not playing, just saying, hey, you gotta trust it. Uh, I did, look where I am. Guys that come back, it's the same thing. Um, but and then mentoring that too, right? Is all these kids want to get better. The easiest way I think to motivate somebody, maybe it's not playing as much as they want to, my meetings are really easy, right? It's the same thing as if I was a teacher. It's like, are you learning? And it goes, Yeah. Next, right? What do you go to school for? Well beyond these kids playing soccer, their mom and dad, at some point, most Americans, right, said I want my kids to go to school, right? College. They didn't know that they were going to be an elite athlete going to Wake Forest. So in their mind, when they were one, if you said you can go to Wake Forest on a scholarship or whatever it is, they'd be like, okay, I know I did that with mine, no problems. Um, so you have to remember you're here for a reason, right? Uh, number two is are you getting better? And they go, Yeah, then what are we talking about? That's why you're here, right? Getting better and instant success, that doesn't always happen. You have players that go to universities that play every minute that don't get better. They get experience, but doesn't mean they're getting better. They're not being held accountable. The little details that one day, if these kids do want to play at the next level, those details are gonna make them long-term pros versus getting drafted or a one-year deal. Uh, and that's what we take pride in, and that's what we talk about. And we have a lot of pros. I mean, Alistair Johnson's playing in the World Cup, um, you know, representing Canada. He's doing Dove commercials now. Oh my gosh, they're awful. But anyway, I mean I use Dove. Um, but it's one of those uh he was a kid that came in as a transfer and didn't started one game, I think. Uh his first year here as a junior, transition positions, starts every game, first round draft pick, and the rest is history. Um, you know, would he have loved to just step on the field and play 90 minutes every game? 100%. But he learned, he got better, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:56

He was a sponge, uh, great mentality, uh, great athlete, and and the rest is history that I I wanted to make sure that I I asked about is like I think I had heard you describe that not only now you've been in this role since 2015, but the staff that you've had around you has stayed pretty constant as well during that. And I I'd be interested to just when you kind of going back to, and I know there's in a few of these conversations, I'm asking you to kind of go back in time a little bit, but I'm I'm interested for you when it came to building that staff around you, what you wanted to complement you, and now how you all have continued to kind of grow um alongside one another as a staff, as a unit um during your time there as well.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Really good question. Um, I get that a lot in uh in the college athletics world too. Is like, how do you have your staff still? Why are your staff still there? I'm like, it ain't the money. You know what I mean? We're college soccer coaches. Um, but I think the the first one was easy. Dane Brenner was is with me since I've been here, obviously. But Dane was here four years, I think, prior to. Um, when that position was open, I recommended Dane to Jay. Um, I recruited Dane as uh out of high school when I was an assistant here. He ended up going to South Florida, but I tried to get him to go to Wake. His dad was a Wake Forest football alum and um followed him. Great relationship, great friendship. We always said we worked together um through the process. Dane was like, you gotta take the job, you gotta take the job, you gotta take the job. Um, and uh so that was an easy one where because he believed in me and I believed in him for a long time. He believes in Wake Forest. Um, and Dane also uh volunteered at the University of Connecticut for my mentor and my former coach. So we had a lot of similar backgrounds in terms of work and uh viewing the program not just as a soccer team, but as a program, so community and camp and alumni and discipline. Um, you know, so from a business side of things, which that's what college athletics is, you know, we're on we're pretty on the same page with that stuff. Uh and then I needed someone to balance me, you know, with some uh experience. And then I actually was looking for head coaches, you know, and that's not easy to do. Um, but uh Steve Armes is a guy that I've known for a while. When I was here as an assistant ODP, we worked together. He coached a lot of the weight guys and like the summer uh was in the Raleigh area, head coach at Campbell, and uh very good balance for me as a human being, right? Like, probably one of the nicest men, you know what I mean, and careful, you know, caring. And he and he has a really good brain for the game, and he was a big time player, right? And Steve was one of those first guys that left college early, signed a professional contract, and then he knew how difficult it was to go back to college and finish your degree. So the educational piece for some of these guys, too, right? I think was important. Um having a staff in place for a long time is good, but I challenged them this year in the offseason. So this is the first year that we haven't made the NCAA tournament in a long time. And I think when that happens, you have to reevaluate everything as individuals, collectively. And I said, you know, uh being together is great, but it's the same. And so now we have to challenge each other on how we're all gonna get better, right? And what else can you bring instead of, oh, this is what we did last year. Well, if we do it the same way last this year as we did last year, can have the same results. So, what are you gonna do? What am I gonna do? What are they gonna do differently? And that was a complete evaluation. I took a couple of weeks at the end of the season over the holidays, and so right, a lot of self-reflection on what um we all do. And then we met with all, like, and I'm talking everyone in the support staff. I want you to be the best at what you do in college soccer, and what are you gonna do? Not to change, but to continue to evolve and get better with the same budget. Because everybody has ideas. Well, well, if we get this and this, but with the same budget, what are things that we We can do better. And that's still a work in progress, right? And it's the same. We go into a spring game. What do we do differently? Like we did the same thing. That's not good enough. So it's the way we, you know, run camps, to the way we're in the community, to the way we do in anything we do, we would just want to try to be a little bit better. And I think the guys know that too, right? Because we do we're we're in there all the time. We're present all the time. And I think that's important as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

If if I may, what were some of those things that you identified for yourself as you were doing some of those reflections and things? And I know you said that's still ongoing and whatnot, but like are there are there any particular things that when you kind of really started to actually create time and space to be reflective that maybe you there were some insights that you had, you know, maybe ignored or things that like caught your attention that you're trying to be intentional with right now?

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Yeah, this is a that's a loaded one, it really is. I think the biggest thing, and I brought it up to players as well, is I feel I lowered expectations. The season wasn't going the way we wanted, and I was finding like uh false positives, you know, for myself and for them when I believe I lowered the expectations maybe to the group or to an individual, to myself. Um, and it's something that it it it like it doesn't matter I I tell I say it all the time, right? When when I took the shop, I know it. Like I have uh I have a benefit to going to work every day, unlike a program that doesn't have history, right? I walk by Final Four trophies, a national championship trophy, ACC championship trophy. So you know within the club you're capable of doing it. Now, there could be years that our talent pool isn't as good as maybe others. That's not me, I love my guys, that doesn't mean I don't love them. But my expectations for the way they play, how we compete should never change. I don't think that's fair to them. Now it may be harder on them, but I don't think it's fair to them. Right? Like, or the expectation, hey, this year we just want to make the NCAA tournament. Um, and I do think like throughout the season last year, I was like, we gotta make the tournament, gotta make the tournament. I wasn't thinking about winning the ACC tournament at that point. Um, and that's where I feel I let them down a little bit, uh individually and collectively.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

For you, you know, I we when we before we hit record, we were talking a little bit about um the human side of leadership and coaching and things that maybe the the the public or like the outside individuals they may not always have um awareness of or or give maybe some extend some grace, we'll say, um for the life of being a a head coach. Are what are some parts of the job that maybe people would underestimate in terms of just not just like the the physical load of it, but even like the emotional load of being a head coach? Are there certain parts of the job that you find that kind of weigh on you the most?

unknown 47:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

How long was this? No. I uh I I I tell people, you know, as coaches take head jobs, and we talk about a lot of assistants all want head jobs, and what do you think? And then after like six months, you you happy doing it? You sure you like this? Um, the reason I say that is because it's lonely. And it and it's not for anyone to feel bad for me, and it's not sad. I don't need I don't need therapy right now because I say that out loud. Um, but it is lonely because um I tell the staff all the time, I said, if you guys are in the locker room or in the office and you're talking about me, I said, I invented that. You didn't invent it. It's not new, right? Because as an assistant, you have all the answers with zero accountability in some ways, right? It can be accountability for me, um, but not global accountability, right? Um decision makers, like, I don't think we should have done that, or I think we should do this, like, and in the end, all those decisions, as much as you all talked about it, and and I lean on my staff a lot, we communicate a lot. Um, it's very rare that I just make a decision and they have no idea that I did it, what I did it for. We we work together. Um, that's still the decision is on you. And then when you go home, win, lose, draw, right? It's lonely. It really is. And is as close as a relationship you can have with spouse or you know, a partner that you have, they don't understand it either, right? As much as they, oh, you're gonna win the next one, baby. You know what I mean? It's it's there's a lot that goes into it. And then you also get the the look of the parents, you get the look of the upset kid that doesn't play, you get the uh, you know, um it there's a lot that goes into it. And nowadays uh there's fundraising, there's alumni engagement in so many different ways. Recruiting is nonstop, we don't have a recruiting calendar, so it just continues. I think what people think is like, I love this if you meet new people, right? So you meet new people and they say, Oh, what do you do? Oh, I coach college soccer. What else do you do? What else do I don't have a life? I wish there was something else I did do. Um, so the balancing with your family is very, very difficult, right? I tell my guys all the time, and I think um all recruits and kids and family should know this too. I've been using it in camps. I said, What's the difference between my children and my players? And like, oh you love your kids. No, I love my players too. Uh the biggest difference is I choose my team, right? I don't choose my kids, right? And I say that is because if I'm gonna spend more time with someone than my kids, I want to choose really good people, right? So if it's baggage with parents, it's baggage with young men, um, you know, because I'm around them more than my children. Oh no, you're not. Yes, I am, right? And and my kids know that too. And I want people to surround myself with that. I I'm proud of my kids to be around, the way they act around my kids, my kids, you know, um, you know, replicate what they do on and off the field, talk to it. I love it, right? I love having my guys around it, but there's a lot of sacrifice there really is, um, that I don't think people realize, especially in college athletics, because it's not just now there are people, and I'm envious of these people that go to work four or five hours a day, come home, take breaks, take summers off, and and they still manage to win some games, they may have a good team, then they have a great program. There's two completely different things, which I don't I don't think people realize as well.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Yeah, and there's also a sustainability component in that too.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Like you like you can't do that in that practice, right? And why are you doing it if you're not really like living through each and every one of your guys? Like Dylan Borso made his MLS debut. I get a little alert, right? He signed a contract as freshman last year, last year, playing with the second team, with the first team, comes on in the first half after an injury, and I watched the game like a worried parent. And I had Dylan for less than a year. It's the relationship and how much you pour into these kids. You want to see him be successful. You don't get that by just showing up at practice and going to work and back and forth. Um and not everybody's gonna win. So if you're not doing that to get that out of it, what are we doing it for? It's not the money.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's uh it's a great way to describe that. I want to um kind of bring us to the last last couple of questions, if I can, and being mindful of your time. And again, as we just discussed all these different things on your plate, um, I don't want to take too much of it, but um you you mentioned there the the folks that have reached out to you, you know, over the years, and I'm I can imagine you've been um the source of wisdom and guidance and mentorship from a number of different people. Like if this is I I hate to just keep throwing loaded questions at you, but I think you've you've touched on some really impactful things. So as coaches reach out, what are the things that you find yourself emphasizing to the most when they reach out for advice and guidance on maybe stepping into that head coaching role? Um, are there certain things that you've you find yourself um mentioning and emphasizing more than others?

SPEAKER_02 52:24

You know, I d I never really thought of it. You know, I I do um I always uh I always emphasize staff. I said who are your staff? Do you have an idea who your staff is gonna be? Um that I because I do think it's important, right? Like when I just said it's lonely, but it is lonelier if you don't have people that you can trust. And then an idea that sometimes, like, you know, that's my evaluation is micromanage. Can you just trust them? Because if you trust somebody, you don't micromanage as much, right? Um same way in my team. Like I don't trust our overall leadership within the group right now. So I told them I'm the captain, I'll micromanage it until someone steps up and takes ownership and runs it the way I want. And I think that's okay. Um, but I think staff is one thing. I do think is um, as I went through my journey a little bit in my coaching career, is making sure that you're you find a way to be you, you know, uh, and honestly and you know, not apologetically be you. Um and and I think it's easier to do if you have a good staff too that supports you that way. Um, but I do think that's important as well. Like try to find ways to do it your way. I think the one thing, and then take the goods from the people that you were working with. I remember this like when I'm a coach, I'm not gonna do this, I'm not gonna do that. I'm like, oh, I remember one thing in particular. I said we would do very similar training sessions on particular days. And I thought there was a little bit of monotony in that. And I'm like, well, when I'm a coach, I'm gonna switch it up all the time. First off, I'm not smart enough to switch it up every day, right? Like, I mean, I don't have that vault of knowledge. And then I'm like, we just never were good at anything. And then I learned, I'm like, oh wow, if you do a 7v7 plus three, that does replicate a lot of the game. But if I'm gonna switch it, but now we're really good at doing 7v7 plus three, which actually is part of our game. Like it looks good in the game. Why don't like instead of every day it's something different, you just never get good at anything. Um, and then the last thing I do, I do emphasize is um consistency is the only way you see if something works. Meaning is you start with four in the back and it didn't work one game. That doesn't mean four in the back didn't work, right? It means you just haven't, you know, you haven't seen it through. So I say with meetings, if we're gonna meet with players, we're gonna do it all the time, we're gonna see how it goes, right? If we're gonna use new GPS, we just consistency to get through it for a long time. Um, we're gonna have a leadership committee. Well, you're gonna stop, start, start. You just don't know what works and what doesn't. And that's that's something that I think I I won't buy a new piece of equipment, I won't buy a new technology if we're not committed to use it, use it the right way for a long period of time, if that if that makes any sense at all.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Oh, it does. Yeah, I can I can, as um you were describing that, I was reflecting in my own life, things that I've seen or observed, and even maybe experience where you abandon something maybe too quickly or you write it off, or you think, hey, it just doesn't work, or whatever the case. We see this all the time with you know, with with athletes, even, and I think this is where there's the the challenge of I I I equate it a lot to like poker, where in theory, like maybe you you played the right hand, like you did everything right. It's like you just got beat, like for whatever reason didn't work, but that doesn't mean that your system or your process is bad. But again, it's gonna take consistency, it's gonna take some experience and reps and things like that to kind of see that through before you maybe hopefully make uh a final judgment call.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

I mean, you buy a stock and it goes down three dollars the next day, and then you're like, I'm selling it. And then okay, you sell it four days later, it's up 80. You know what I mean? Like, uh, and you have all these regrets. Um, I've been using my players like when they come in. I said, What type of stock are you? Right, like even as a player, what type of stock are you? Right? You have, we know you have high potential, but you're not performing, right? And you're dropping. Should I sell you?

unknown 56:21

Right?

SPEAKER_02 56:21

I mean, I don't, I don't, it's it, but honestly, that that's the thing, is like you just want this consistency of improvement. You know there's going to be a little bit of loophole, but that's what we want, right? Um, you don't want guys, I don't want guys depreciating on my dime, right? I've been using stocks a lot with our guys.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

I love I I'm a huge fan of that. Uh I'll share a very quick story here. Yeah, I had a player who we were in the outfield one day during batting practice, and we were talking about he we got was really getting into investing and money and things like that. And we the conversation had nothing to do with baseball at first, but one of the things that we ended up discussing that I shared with him is like it's amazing that when you actually look at almost like a like the stock market or you were to look at a chart and a graph, how often it rep it can be represented by how your performance goes. And so one of the things that we talked about was like if you just judge it today, it can be very volatile, right? You have a bad game, you make an error, something doesn't go your way, right? Like your daily position might all of a sudden be trending down or whatever. But when you zoom out, you what you might see is that your trajectory is actually good. And that's the other piece of it, too, is I think sometimes like we judge ourselves on our day-to-day position when it's like, well, make sure you also at times zoom out to see is your trajectory on the right path. Now, if it's not, then yes, okay, let's let's go back to our system, let's explore what adjustments need to be made and so forth. But I think there are some just wonderful parallels, I think, between stocks and investing and and just the day-to-day performance. And I love that idea of asking players like what's your stock today? Like, you tell me, should I buy, should I sell? Like, that's I think that's a really nice idea.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

If I'm a big investor, right? Would I invest in you? Because they all want to be pros too. And that's basically what a professional club does, right? If it's baseball, if it's like it doesn't matter, they're making a large investment in you as a as a college coach, right? Now, with the the cost of school at Wake Forest, any amount of money is a large investment. What are we getting on our investment? And I'm not talking about goals, I'm just talking about consistency, showing up every day, making your team better, making the community better, and obviously, yeah, helping you reach your goals. But what type of investment are you? You know, high risk, low reward. I told like like um players, I had a couple conversations with some wingers this week, and I go, we're starting to get to a point where you're making it difficult on me because we're starting to play guys because of what we think they're capable of doing, but not what they're currently doing. And then as a coach, you could lose your credibility with other players because we believe in somebody and what we feel they're capable of, and we've seen it, but we haven't seen the execution, right? Like, like Yumana, I think, is a great stock, but we're not seeing the potential in it because it went down the last week. I'm like, I'm gonna buy it. I'm like, it's gonna do really well, and it hasn't. Someone else knows more about it, you know. So it it is, but that's the way players are. Um, I've been using that a lot more with them. And nowadays I think a lot more people, the younger people are dipping and dabbing in it because it's so easy with with you know with your phones and stuff. Uh I think it hits home.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Yeah. Other than not to mention to two some of the landscape differences. Obviously, there's NIL and all that. It's it's a perfect time to, I think, be equating these or finding the parallels between sport, performance, life, and and the financial world. Um, I wanna I want to ask this last question. This is a question that I I do try to pose to all the guests that come on as kind of a conclusion, Bobby. But um what is something that you're proud of that maybe you don't always get an excuse to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

That's loaded, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

I think um I mean anyone that really knows me know like knows this, but I think I'm proud well there's some days I'm not proud of it, but then there's uh I I think of of late I've been more and more proud of it is that I uh I do, although we didn't have a great season, um I you know uh we run one of the most successful soccer programs in the country, and I try to balance it with with loving all my three kids as well. Um and and and it comes at a cost to them, right? Um, but it it's uh doing my best. I mean, my daughter lives in Colorado. She goes to college now, and it's weird to say she's my best friend, but she's my confidant almost everything. We talk every day. Uh, and that's been since the day I left. So I left my daughter while she was in Colorado with her mom, which is still one of my really closest friends. Um, and it and it's it's without like an incredible co-parent, it doesn't work that way. Um, and uh, but I do think we raised an amazing young woman, and I'm having the opportunity right now to put my nine and eleven-year-old as well, like trying to have a life outside of it. I've never been successful, but these last couple of years, that's been a main focus of mine, and I feel like I'm getting better at that. I just need to make sure my team is continuing to get better. But more importantly, I don't think people realize um yes, we got talented kids, but it's always been a goal of mine to have as as diverse of a group uh as possible, um, at a predominantly um middle to upper class institution, like in both the University of Denver and here. And I think uh and one of the main reasons for that is I think the the cultural differences, the learning opportunities. Um I played college soccer, and it was important for me and what I've learned through other people, not just in the university itself, but just from the culture and being around different types of people, where we have guys from all different walks of life. And it's you know what I mean, from religions to academic backgrounds to schooling backgrounds, parental, you know, some no parents, some one parent, like you know, five parents, right? Based off, you know, marital situations, um, black, white, Hispanic, um and that the way they interact with each other, right? I see a kid from uh the Bronx, you know, interacting with blonde hair, blue eyes from Alabama as if they're brothers and they've been together for 20 years. Uh, I take a lot of pride in that. And I take a lot of pride in that I have a kid over um from Senegal and my kids praying before dinner with them, you know, and and he's Muslim, but he doesn't care. He's just with my kids and he's just part of the family. Um, to a kid from Japan and Jose Kojima calls on holidays to talk to my kiddos. That stuff is really, really special to me. And we don't talk about it as much because it's more about like, uh, are we winning games? Are they signing contracts? Um, but the impact that my players have had on my kids and hopefully my kids on the players, I think is something I take great pride in.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Well, I'm just gonna again say one last time, thank you for and take giving you uh again a lot of acknowledgement just for taking some time to share. You uh you answered a lot of loaded questions. So thank you. I try not to just pepper you the whole time, but I'm grateful for your responses and the reflections. And just it's been very cool to hear the evolution in your kind of coaching and some of the the again expose the human side of the profession and the job that I think more people um can benefit from. I think you mentioned earlier the one of those big challenges being the isolation and I think conversations like this and peeling back the layers. I know there's many that I've had in previous shows that have reached out have said, man, it was nice to know I'm not alone, like feeling some of this, you know. So I think just you being willing to be vulnerable and share some of these things, it means a great deal. So so thank you, Bobby.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:26

Yeah, exactly. I'll say this too. I think um I think all this stuff relates to whatever, if you're looking at college athletics, especially, it doesn't matter what division you're in. I remember one of my best friends coaches division three-man soccer, and uh we all have the same exact problems, right? And I say problems, like you call them what you want, right? But we all do the same thing. Players want that it's it's all the same. So I I think it can relate to anybody, whatever level. And it could be a youth club coach that just loves what they do and feel it's thankless right now, but they got to realize it's not as long as you're doing it the right way. Um, in the end, you'll get, I always say, like a WTF every once in a while. Like I get a letter, oh you know, I thank you so much. And if I listened more, I know I could have been better, but I'm using what I'm like, what the, you know, and I get mad, but you know what I mean? Like if you would have done that when you were here, oh my gosh, you could have been unbelievable. But you know, it it it is uh I I think more players should reach out to their youth coaches or whenever a kid commits to the university, you know, it could be maybe not the club they're at right now. I'm like, just remember to thank so-and-so, because there's no way that you could be here without it, because that thanks could actually motivate that guy for another three years. You don't know how long. Maybe they're down and out because I've been there. And, you know, I I got at the end of the season, I got a couple of people reached out to me. It's like, that's why you do it, right? And and it motivates you to get back on the horse and keep doing it. So I think it's we're all going through the same thing. Yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

Well, again, thank you for peeling back the curtain in your own life, your own coaching. And taking some time to do so. And hopefully the rest of the spring, spring season goes well. And I know it's spring break, so hopefully get some time to recharge a bit with the family. So thanks, Bobby. Appreciate you, Zach. Thank you. And before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for being here and for continuing to be part of these conversations. As a reminder, moving forward, these guest interviews, they're now going to be released every other week instead of weekly. And the goal is to just create some more space to really highlight each conversation, share some key moments, and ultimately bring you more value from every episode, but also some of the other endeavors and projects that I have going on as well. If you found this one useful, I'd encourage you to share it with someone else, a coach, a leader, a colleague, anyone that you think might benefit from the conversation. And if you're interested in going deeper, whether that's through one-on-one coaching, maybe the Win More Live Better Leadership Accelerator, or any other work that I have going on, feel free to reach out. I'd love to connect and support you however I can. You can grab a time to converse with the link in the show notes using Callendly. With all that being said, I appreciate you being here, and I'll see you in the next episode.