From the Other Side of the Mic: Winning Without Losing What Matters Most

In this From the Other Side of the Mic episode, Zach joins Colin Jonov on The Playbook podcast to discuss the paradoxes of leadership, the role of identity and values in decision-making, and how preparing for adversity, not avoiding it, helps people sustain excellence over time. They also discuss the hidden costs of ambition, balancing professional success with the responsibilities of family, and why the best leaders don't simply chase results, they model the behaviors and character they hope to inspire in others.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Win More Live Better Podcast. I'm your host, Zach Brandon. Now, every so often on this show, I like to flip the script around and do what I call a from the other side of the mic episode. So rather than me interviewing somebody else, these episodes give you an opportunity to hear a conversation that I've had uh in the guest seat on somebody else's show. Now, one of the reasons that I like to do this is because it kind of gives you, I think, a deeper insight into my own philosophy and some of the work that I'm doing. Uh, and it's just kind of fun to kind of flip um the seat around and the microphone around. And so today's conversation comes from my appearance on the playbook podcast with Colin Junov. And one of the things that I loved about this conversation is we didn't waste any time. Like we jumped right on into it. He hit me with some deeper questions right on the front end, and we talk a lot about leadership, performance, and sustainable excellence. So, some of the things that we get into in this conversation, just to give you a bit of a mini preview, we talk about overuse strengths becoming limitations. We talk about the role of routines as a performance tool, but also the cost when we become rigid to them. Uh, I introduce uh a lot of different metaphors, a lot of different analogies from skyscrapers to painters versus paintbrushes to spotlights versus lighthouses, all different analogies that I like to use that have resonated in my own life, but also with those that I work with. We talk a little bit about perspective and reframing, especially when it comes to helping performers navigate setbacks and things like injuries. And then finally, we talk about identity as a downstream driver of things like our behavior and ultimately our growth. So if you've enjoyed the conversations that we've been having on this show uh around leadership, mental performance, and sustainable success, I do think you'll enjoy this conversation. Um, and before we move a little bit further, I just wanted to share a couple of quick, exciting updates. The first is actually comes in the form of a thank you because a few months ago I shared that I was gonna uh move my guest interviews to kind of more of an every other week cadence. But after kind of paying attention to the response and and episodes that you all are downloading and sharing uh more than any, it seems like the guest conversations are the ones that people tend to really value um the most. And so I love that because they're the conversations that I've had a blast with. Uh, and so I want to kind of start to increase that frequency again a little bit more, get it back to kind of more of a weekly uh rhythm, if possible. So I encourage you to be on the lookout for that. And then with that though, if there's somebody that you know that could make a great guest, like if you've been tuning in on the show and you're hearing the kinds of kinds of conversations that we're having really about the human side of coaching and leadership, um, I would love to know who you think would be great. Um, and if you are comfortable with an introduction, awesome. No worries if not, I'll still just take recommendations. And then if you're somebody listening to this and you have an experience or a perspective that you would like to share and you feel like your story could help other coaches and leaders, let me know. I would love to chat with you and see how we can get you on and give you a platform uh to share. So really excited about uh kind of starting to bring those episodes back to you uh again on a little bit more of a frequent basis. Second, this one is the one I'm probably most excited about. So next month, this September, I'm gonna host two live in-person events here in the Phoenix, uh, Arizona area. Now, the first is gonna be designed to help leaders, business professionals, and teams apply the same mental performance principles that I've spent the last decades honing and teaching inside of elite sporting organizations. And I'm gonna share how all of us can benefit from developing these tools to increase our own mental strength, cultivate a high performance mindset so we perform more optimally, uh more consistently, and ultimately hopefully have uh more fulfillment in the process too. The second one, it's gonna be a couple weeks later, and it's gonna be uh, in essence, like a one-day immersive version of my leadership accelerator. So I'm gonna take the core ideas from my six-week kind of flagship coaching experience and bring them together in one very highly interactive day, focus on helping leaders perform sustainably and perform at their best, uh, and also create environments for others to do the same. So we're gonna intentionally limit both workshops uh to 20 individuals. So we're gonna try to keep it very interactive, very personal. Uh, so if you're in the Phoenix area, Scottsdale area, uh, or you're just looking for an excuse uh to come sweat uh out here in Arizona in September, uh, I would love to have you join us. I think they're gonna be uh awesome events. I'm really excited uh to give you a chance also to get connected with some of the people in my world. Uh so you're not gonna get a chance to just learn from me, but I think you're also gonna meet some really awesome people in the room uh and walk away with some cool connections. So really excited about that. The first one's coming September 4th, and then the next one will be uh later on. Uh more details coming soon. So uh if that sounds interesting, there's a link in the show notes where you can kind of stay up to date. Uh, I'll also continue to sprinkle in announcements on it uh here on the podcast as well. So without further ado, I just want to again say thank you. I I never take for granted uh the fact that you're spending part of your week with me and you're engaging in these conversations uh and sharing them uh on social and things like that. So much appreciated. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Colin Junov on the playbook podcast. I hope you enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

I've been obsessed with the double-edged sword of a lot of virtues and performance recently. And you actually tweeted about this. Is it still called Tweeting on X? Whatever it's called.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

The other thing I still call it Twitter.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Yeah, I just call it Twitter too. But you talked about the flaws of social media, but how it has connected you with so many amazing different people. And honestly, I relate that a lot to performance because there's a lot of things individually or collectively as a team, that some of the best attributes or best virtues can also simultaneously be the worst. And I'm always fascinated or becoming more fascinated with the tension between those when you think about intensity, you think about passion, how those same things, obsession, can be the equal opposite, the last thing that you need at certain points in time.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

What I love about that as a starting point is something that has rang true in my own life, but I think the more that my antenna has gone up for it, I've seen it in others, is that overused strengths can become limitations. So I'll give you an example and I'll I'll use a personal one. I I do think, I don't know how many skills and strengths I have. Again, if we surveyed my wife or if we we brought her into the conversation, it would be a much shorter list than what I would probably give you, but we'll leave that for another episode. The point being though, I uh, you know, I think from a professional standpoint, I've worked really hard to develop my ability to listen and my ability to not just pay attention to what people say, but pay attention to what they're not saying, pay attention to how they say certain words and where you can sometimes notice somebody almost have this like emotional release with what they share, or you hear a sigh or you see a sigh, and it becomes an angle to go. I think I've cultivated that skill and it's become a strength. The trade-off, though, is if I overplay it, there are problems within that. So, for example, there are certain spaces where your voice needs to be heard, yeah, especially when you're in a leadership role. You need to not only be able to make your voice heard, but you also then need to be able to convey a sense of confidence, a sense, a sense of command in it. Um, I've seen this over the years. This is maybe a little bit timely because um the MLB Combine is this week. And I've spent the last five years, I think now, five, maybe six, being involved in that process. And there's an aspect of even in that where when you watch the draft unfold and those discussions start to happen, you can see how important it is for how you communicate your ideas, how you communicate your observations, and sometimes having to do it with incomplete information. So that maybe doesn't tie in exactly from a performer standpoint, but one thing I've very much seen is that when you overplay something, it does have hidden cost. There are what we call unintended consequences. And that for me is just one example that I've seen in my own life, but I'll give you like an athlete example too, just to maybe make it more clear is I think we all know how much routines get emphasized as it relates to high performance and more importantly, like being able to sustain it. What I also know is that routines can become a challenge or costly when we become rigid to them or when we continue to engage in a routine that once had purpose, that once had meaning, that no longer does. We've kind of lost track of that over the course of time. So I love, you know, when I hear an athlete talk about the importance of their routine, like that's great, that's good. We we want you to cultivate that, but also understanding we don't want to become limited by it, or we don't want to become so rigid to it that we lose adaptability or we lose flexibility. Again, I'm I'm I'm maybe over-indexing on the combine example, but I remember we talked to a player, this was, I think, a couple years ago. He talked a lot in the interview about the routine and how regimen he was, how disciplined he was, and how important that was to who he was as a performer. But when you looked at his stats on the road, he was not nearly as good of a performer as he was at home. And as we kind of posed more questions around it, what we started to realize is like, oh, like on the road, your routine may not always look the same, may not always be able to follow certain things. And so he was running into some challenges that he had a good intention routine, but maybe he lacked the flexibility around it. And so that for me is is one thing that comes to mind as you talk about that of where there is this interesting paradox sometimes. The last thing I'll say, and then I'll shut up and let you ask a question, is um I view it like a uh a skyscraper. So a skyscraper, when it's built, it is deeply rooted. The infrastructure goes deeply into the ground. And so there's a very solid foundation that is needed in order for it to withstand not only being upright, but any elements. But what I did not know until about a few years ago is that skyscrapers at the very top are built to sway and they move in the wind. So when conditions all of a sudden become more detrimental to it, it allows it to be flexible enough to withstand those things. If it were just ridge it all the way across, it actually wouldn't be able to handle uh, you know, weather, inclement weather, or other types of potential friction for it as well. So when I think about that, that to me is is the example that kind of comes to mind that I've seen with athletes sometimes where here's something we know is important and helpful, but there's a certain extent where it becomes problematic.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, I I look at those things as don't become a slave to some of these virtues that I keep calling them. Don't be a slave to your routines, don't be a slave to your, you know, natural tendencies, whether that's you know, how intense that you play or how much that you care or how you communicate, don't be a slave to those things. Understand that you have different tools and levers. And so like routines is a really good one because I think about even my routines as like an interviewer. There are some times I am fresh off of not being able to plan for an interview right off a meeting, and I gotta run in. And if I had this long 10-hour, that's exaggerated, long hour routine that I needed before each time I stepped into an interview room, I would be screwed and all my interviews would probably not be very good. And so I kind of like tear it. I'm like, okay, if I have time, if I'm traveling somewhere doing one in person, what does my routine look like? Versus, hey, I'm I know coming into this, I have like four meetings back to back. I'm gonna be tired. How in three minutes can I get myself ready? How in 30 seconds can I get myself ready? I have one of them that's called just kind of like an eff it routine where it's like, I'm just gonna come in without a script, without anything. I'm gonna have a sip of water, I'm gonna take a deep breath, and I'm just gonna talk. Right. And then there's times where I'm like, okay, I am articulate, I'm detailed. I have like I worked out before. I'm in the I usually am fresh like best thought of mind in the mornings. And so, like, those are the ones where I have a little bit more of a routine versus in the afternoons, like this one, I'm a little bit more of kind of just ripping off the band-aid, let's go, fresh off meetings. And it's having that flexibility and adaptability, the ability to sway, like you said. What I love about that example is so much of performance from a leadership perspective, from an individual perspective. There are so many different examples in other domains of life that apply directly to performance, the different mental models that I find so fascinating and from an analogy perspective, just really stick home. And I think of the people that are really good in this space from a leadership perspective is know how to plug and play those. And so, like with you and the work that you do, how do you position coaches and leaders to have that skill set to be able to take different domains of life and apply them to sport and make it resonate?

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Before I answer that, I wanted to acknowledge you for the routine that you described. I'm gonna need to get a copy of that at some point because I could probably hone my own routine. Because when I go back and I listen to some of my interviews on the podcast, I'm sitting there being like, why did I sound like that? Why did I say that? Why did I ask that particular question? So I probably still need a bit of a work in progress with it. What maybe is one other helpful analogy that I'll use, just I don't want to belabor the the uh this podcast example or the scouting example, but the way that I've often distinguished this, because I think this does apply to leaders, is there is a difference between the paintbrush and the painter. So as a podcast host, you're the painter and you bring your years of experience, the life experience that you have, the professional experience you have, the competitive experience you had, what you've discussed with other um guests on the show. And when you bottle all that up, it creates this very rich perspective and deep reservoir of opportunities for you to guide a conversation. So that's you as the painter. The paintbrush is the questions. And I think sometimes what happens not only in the scouting, podcasting, leadership, is we sometimes want to know, like, well, what's the question I need to ask? What's the what's the golden question that really unlocks a great answer? The reality is, is it's not quite that black and white. Because what I think makes a good interview, much like why people tune into a podcast, is is about the painter. It's about the host, it's about how they guide the conversation, it's about how they connect dots to what's being said. So I share all that because I do actually think that that is related in a lot of ways to the work that I try to do now, is helping coaches and leaders ask the types of questions that maybe they're not always thinking to ask, that you get overlooked. Because one thing I've known is we all kind of get on this treadmill. And especially those of us that are very high achieving and we're constantly fixated on the next goalpost. What's the next game? What's the next practice? What's the next season? What's the next project? And so on. What we don't always do a great job of is kind of just slow down just enough for us to maybe ask a different question that unlocks a new way of thinking, a new way of being, and so forth. So I think a lot of my work now is is kind of serving in that capacity for different leaders. And I think what's important about that is you start to notice, and I'm certainly not the only person that has described this. I think many talk about the importance of you know asking better questions than just having answers and so on. And one, um, you're gonna quickly discover I use a lot of analogies. So some will make sense, some will not. One that I've shared previously. Now, I heard this in the context of public speaking, but I've actually adapted it to leadership. When you see some people on stage, they they operate kind of like a spotlight. And we all kind of are familiar, I think, with the spotlight effect, where we think oftentimes that people are very concerned with how do we look, how do we sound, what's their interpretation of my credibility as I'm talking through this. Does this make any sense to them? It's a very IA-oriented orientation. The other way you can look at it is I want you to get on stage, and like I think what a lot of really good speakers do is they function like a lighthouse. They don't really care how they look, but their job is to create a vision or a guide and be a guide for those in the room. The only way that you do that is to get clear on what those people need. It's walking into a space and asking, what do they need from me right now? How do I need to show up for them? It's not about you, it's about them. How do I make sure that I take my message and I capture it slash connect it to their dreams and their goals and their challenges, the things that are keeping them up at night? Because if you ultimately want them to change their behavior, it helps a lot if you connect it to those types of things. So I share all that because that's I think some of the work that I and I would say it's more of a balance to use what you described at the beginning, the paradox of, you know, there are aspects like, yeah, I I want you to evaluate yourself. I want you to look in the mirror and and think about who you are and your values, your virtues, and and what your vision and dream is and how you're showing up. But what I know is that if you start with who you're really trying to serve and you get clear on that, and you get clear on them, it generally makes everything else downstream.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

I like that. I think a lot of I think a lot of problem public speaking is a really good example. Is you're so full, like you said, you're so focused on self that you forget that you are there to serve others. And I talked about that recently in a newsletter. I talked about that from a coach's perspective. Is are we ego driven in we're looking to serve ourselves and prove ourselves right? Or are we there to be a servant to the collective? Are we there to get it right for the group? And when presented new information, are we willing to adapt that new information and utilize it for the whole? Or are we ego driven, egocentric, and we are looking to just be right for the sake of being right to say, I told you so? And it's similar in public speaking, it's similar as an athlete. It's can we accept new information and make it applicable and change our mind or be adaptable and change our ways? And I think that is such an important part of being a leader, being a speaker, being an athlete is can we strive to get things right with new information and be adaptable in that space?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

As you describe that, the word that came up for me is like curiosity. And what I love is what you're really highlighting is the paradox of leadership. That it's not about you. And it also is, you know, there the the paradox is it's about yourself and service to others, as you describe. So I bring that up though, because I think that's where the curiosity comes into play is you know, what questions are you asking? I want there to be both. I would I actually want there to be questions about you and how you're showing up and your habits. And this may or may not align with terminology you use, but one that has helped me has been, I guess, distinguishing values and virtues. So values being more, okay, let's define what's important to us, what are the things that shape and filter our decisions? Virtues now are do you bring them to life? You know, do they show up in how you walk into a room, how you lead a meeting, how you serve those that you work with and how you listen and all those things in between. And so it's it's in both instances, self or service, you're asking questions. It's just it's it's they're oriented differently. And I think that's an important part of the leadership work, is it's kind of both. Um it's why I, you know, for me, we don't have to necessarily get into this, but I guess the the framework that I use, and I've kind of adapted this a little bit from Tim Galway, who's obviously written a uh a very influential, impactful book on the inner game of tennis and whether you're a tennis person or not, I know many that have gained value and insights from it. And he talks about, you know, your performance is potential minus interference. For me, if for a leader or for a coach, performance is actually a product of two interrelated things: you, your individual self and your capabilities and the environment that you're cultivating. And so this is again where I want those things to interact. They do interact. And so when I do either one-on-one coaching or, you know, work with coaching staffs and so on, like that's kind of what I'm always trying to assess and ask questions around is where is there a bottleneck? Because that's where the interference comes in. And I think that's the fun work is like, how do you get in your own leg? Uh, we could say this maybe for off air. Like I can give you a number of ways that I probably get in my own way uh at times, but that's That's to me where when you can start to bring awareness to that and remove some of that, that's actually where a lot of the most impactful work is. But again, it shows up in both directions, you and yourself and those that you serve.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

I just wrote, you know, Father's Day, you know, just happening about leadership and like some of the lessons of being a father has taught me about leadership. And one of those elements is you give up certain freedoms, both when you're a father and when you're a leader. And how does that present in its work as if you're you're as what you are currently talking about? And when you, you know, when you're a leader or you're a father, there are certain aspects of your life that you no longer get to indulge into. You are not awarded the same freedom to make the same public mistakes that you can if you're a performer or you're smaller, you know, personnel on the cog of the wheel. But when you are that leader and you are the face, you're the head of your household, you're the head of an organization, you're the head of a team, you have to embody the environment or the culture that you are curating. Because any little time that you deviate away from that path, you're giving somebody an excuse to not listen to you or to not buy in or to not be a part of the environment that you envision. I think a lot of the problem with leaders is not the responsibility in itself, but the resistance of the that responsibility. And not everybody is equipped to be a leader. Now, some people get there, but not everybody's equipped to be the best leader. And I think the best leaders understand that concept and they don't fight it. They understand when they step into that role, there's a lot that they have to give up. There's a lot of freedoms that they sacrifice to uphold and withhold the standard that they ultimately want to create for the collective.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

You raised, like, I think a really important uh distinction there that I think it it resonates on a personal level because So I think there's a couple of things here. You know there's something called the promotion trap where as you ascend up a ladder, whether it's in a corporate setting, whether it's in a sports setting, or really any capacity, the skill sets and expertise that got you into that final maybe seat or that head seat aren't always the ones that need to be played and used once you step into a more formal leadership role. What I think is great about how you open that is, you know, I think it's very easy to think a lot about what you want the leaders of you to look like, what the coach that you want to become, the role that you eventually want to hold. And I'm not here to I I I actually very purposefully when I work with coaches, I start there. I start with their dreams, I start with where they want to go and where they see themselves and so on. But what's really important is what you describe, which is are you aware and have you taken a moment to acknowledge some of the cost? Have you taken a moment to acknowledge the sacrifices? Some of them I think get talked about a lot. Personal and professional, that gets talked about a lot. The idea of the sacrifices away from family, the sacrifices away from relationships and things like that that matter immensely to you that don't always show up exactly in your professional relationships. But then the other side of this is acknowledging that you've signed up for those things. And it's important, I think, to have awareness around it, but to also think through it. So, you know, there's no mental skill that is more widely popular and used than visualization. And there's different terms for it. Some say mental rehearsal, visualization, imagery. You know, they they technically have nuanced differences, but the reality is it's about imagining your future self, imagining yourself, competing, performing, leading, and so on into the future and creating this vivid image of what you want that to look, sound like, be like, etc. What's interesting though is when you look at research, a key component that I think gets often missed or it's it's often incomplete in someone's practice of it is that the most effective is when you're also preparing for adversity. You're rehearsing the challenges that you know you're gonna face. So I had an athlete, uh a major league player, where, you know, the first time through the order, he was lights out. Like he was like one, I mean, easily one of the best pitchers in the game. And, you know, his his uh statistics reflected that. But when the lineup rolled back around, it was like the wheels came off very quickly. And so we're talking one day, and and I know that visualization is a core part of his routine. So I'm asking him about it, and he goes on to I ask him, like, what exactly are you visualizing? And he says, Oh, I see myself face the first three hitters of the game, and I just mow them down. Like, I'm like all my pitches are working, like the shapes are good, the velocity, I feel good, like it's all the best stuff, all the positives. And I told him, I was like, Well, the good news is that's working. Like you're you're doing that, which is good. The challenge, though, is it's incomplete because what you're not imagining, what you're not rehearsing for or preparing for, is what comes after. When all of a sudden you're facing a guy and you can't pitch him the same way, or all of a sudden somebody gets on base, now you're pitching from the stretch. Can be a different, different mindset, a different approach, and some and some guys are more comfortable and less comfortable in those types of spaces. So I share all that because I love what you're describing with this notion of being cognizant of what some of those sacrifices are. Uh, we can't overlook those. And yet what we can also do is it's it's this balance of having this very clear and compelling long-term vision, because that's gonna pull us, right? When we're in the muck, when we're when we're struggling, that's what we need is to remind ourselves where we want to go and how great that's gonna be. And we also need to have this, the tools, the system, so on in the moment to help us withstand the built-in adversity that I've yet to meet somebody where they don't have it built into their journey in whatever capacity. So, someone out there is listening to this, you can disregard everything I just said. But I think that's an important part of the work that we do.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

I love talking about the dark side of competition because there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes individually, collectively as a team, that gets glossed over, even in that visualization example. We are so conditioned to visualize the best, visualize perfect, visualize standing on the podium. Like you said, nobody, I shouldn't say nobody, it is far less frequently talked about visualizing yourself in adversity, putting yourself in those moments where you feel at your lowest, but you still have to go out and compete. How are we pulling ourselves out of those moments? How are we surviving when if you're a baseball player, you're in a 0 for 34 slump? You haven't hit a home run in two months, your ERA went from two to 3.5, and that's terrible for you. Whatever it is, what are we doing and how are we getting ourselves back to who we want to be as a competitor? Because there's, and again, I probably over-index, but that subsector of learning how to show up and compete when you're at your worst, to me, is so critical as a performer because adversity is inevitable. You're gonna go through personal struggles that sometimes will bleed into your professional career. You're gonna go through moments where your professional career is gonna bleed into your personal life. But how do I put myself in the environment where I can, you know, be calling the dad at home, the husband? How can I be calling the performer on the field or as a coach or whatever it is that you do and be able to compartmentalize, still give, you know, myself the proper attention and the emotions and the feelings and make sure I'm adequately addressing those things while still being my best self because those around me deserve the best version of me. And when you step into those leadership roles, it's all the more important to have that skill set to where you can understand adversity is coming. This is how I'm going to prepare. How can I put myself or visualize myself or position myself in every possible scenario that I could endure and have a relative plan for it and still be flexible and adaptable and willing to change my ways while still being the best coach and still being the best person at home. And it is, it's a near impossible task that you are forced to have to learn when you're in those positions, whether you're a player leader or a coach leader or front office or owner of an organization. It is to me the most important skill set to be able to find a way to master that adversity the best that you can.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

I think it's really well said. I I share the sentiment with you of the idea of appreciating the dark side of leadership. I don't think we talk about it enough, but we can save that for uh aside. But I think um let me share one one just quick story. I'll try to be condensed with it. Uh so a few years ago, I went to a um like a leadership workshop, and it was like a two and a half day event. And uh, you know, it was all about growing yourself as a leader, self-awareness, communication, getting clear on your identity, a lot of the things that you know you very much appreciate, and you've had a lot of awesome guests on the show to discuss and you've shared your experience with. And it was an opportunity to not only get uh some exposure to some content, but it was also there was a lot of like live coaching during it. So, day two of the event, there was a gentleman there who a lot of these people did not come from sport, but there was a gentleman there who had already built a very successful first business. He was in the midst of trying to build his second. But as he was describing, he was like, I feel stuck. And that was kind of the question that the facilitator opened, like, who here has something that they're stuck on? This gentleman raises his hand, starts to talk about it, and he starts to expand as to why. He's like, I've I've done this, like I have the strategy, I have the system, I have the playbook, like I know what to do. But I'm more irritable lately. I can't get the people that are are building this new thing with me completely alive or keep running into some things that didn't happen in the first endeavor that he built. And as he kept going, he started to talk about how that stress was carrying over at home and how it was affecting his relationship. And to your point, it's like as much as we want to say off-field, on field, like they they bleed, they they blur together to to echo what you shared. And so he's talking about it and he he just goes on about how him and his wife are, you know, they're kind of roommates at this point, and they're not actually spouses. And the the the gentleman facilitating this workshop asked him, he said, Hey, most business people that I know are are very focused on their calendar. Is that fair to say for you? And he was like, Oh yeah, like I'd be in trouble if I if I didn't have a calendar. And this guy had told him, he was like, the biggest thing I need to focus on right now is my marriage. Like, that's the first thing I need to get that right. Then the business, like otherwise, it becomes a vicious cycle. So the gentleman says, who's facilitating says, Can I see your phone? And you can tell this guy's all of a sudden like, I regret this. This was a bad decision. Like, now I want to take this all back. So he hands him his phone, and the gentleman facilitating starts to scroll through it. And in about 10 seconds, give or take, he looks up and he says, I think I solved it. Like, I think I got your answer for you. And you could tell the business guy was like, Well, okay, like what exactly did you discover? And he said, You don't have your wife on your calendar. And I don't know about you, Colin, but I've had moments in my life where someone else was getting coached or taught, and you're listening, and you're sitting there the whole time, like they're talking to me. I needed, I needed to hear that. And that was how I felt. And that wasn't because I, you know, didn't feel like our relationship, our marriage, and so forth was where it needed to be. But what I did know for a fact is I was spending a very disproportionate amount of time focused on ascending this professional ladder and becoming really great at that and and ignoring, I think, how much it needed to start at home. And the the last thing I'll I'll share with it about 10 years ago, I literally just shared this yesterday. So again, maybe some of this is skewed a bit, but I I was thinking about it a lot because it was Father's Day. And 10 years ago, I wrote, I read this book. It's called The Leader's Code, and it's written by a military uh veteran, and in it, he has a section called Excellence. And there's a section in this book, a passage in this book that is without a doubt the number one passage that I've reflected on over the last 10 years more than any other. And it starts with if you want to pursue excellence professionally, it has to start at home. I am the only person that can be the husband to my spouse. I'm the only person that can be the dad to my kids. And he goes on later, and I'm probably paraphrasing a little bit, but it it's he expresses the sentiment that it would be infinitely foolish of me to pursue success on a role that many others could do at the expense of a one role that only I can. And I read that 10 years ago. This was before kids, and my wife and I we were together at the time, but I have thought about that a lot. And I thought about that a lot because I had spent so much time of my own life trying to get to a role that very few people in the world had. And along the way, you start to realize that there's only one role that you can serve in that others can't. And so I share that like I think that's a dark side of the leadership. And it's not so much, hey, all of a sudden now your wife is gonna get the same amount of time. Like, that's your family, your kids. Like, that's not true. It's not reality if you generally want to pursue excellence. That's kind of the cost, as we talked about. What I do know though is what we often don't do is put the things that we value most on our calendar and in our schedule. And if you don't, it's the first thing that goes. It's the first thing that gets hijacked by somebody else. Not in a malicious way, but just in a way, again, when you're a leadership, that's part of the responsibility. It's part of what people come to you for. So for me on a personal level, I'm sorry because I don't even remember your specific question. But what I what I will say for certain is like I have thought about that passage more than any other in 10 years. And it was very much a catalyst as to why I also decided to step down from a role that very few have because I felt like there was another role that only I could serve.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Father's Day, you know, obviously having just happened, you know, has been forcing me to do a lot of reflection. And for me, and I've talked about some of the stuff before on the on the podcast too, is the most important thing for me was to be a good father. The hard part is defining what a good father is. Now, I say there are certain things professionally that I will sacrifice to be an involved dad, to be the best dad and husband I can possibly be, because I was someone who grew up with a divorced family. And how that still impacts me as a 30-year-old man with three kids is actually pretty remarkable how having a divorce family can still impact me when it comes to important decisions or even fun decisions that I want to include everybody in that becomes challenging. And so for me, you talk about like things that happen in people's environments in the past that dictate how they behave today. I'm a really big prime example of how everything I experienced as a kid has made me want to be the best father and husband I can be. And I say that to say the dark side of performance is when you're someone who's ambitious, and I put myself in that category. You know, whoever wants to disagree or agree, fantastic. How I operate in my own mind, I would say I'm a very ambitious person. I have things and goals professionally that I want to achieve at the highest maximum level. And so there are certainly days when I lay my head on my pillow at night where I'm living in frustration or tension because I'm acknowledging I know there's certain levels that I can't reach because in order to reach those levels, I would have to give up being the type of father I want to be. And I'm in I'm incredibly designed and articulate with the type of father and the amount of time I want to spend with my kids. And so I always have to walk myself back from some of those ambitions. That doesn't mean that it's not really, really hard. And I don't go through a day or two of just feeling, you know, not worthless. That's an exaggeration, but feeling a little bit less than what I can be. And it going back to where we started with like the leadership perspective, is you have to really understand in deep rooted the the certain trade-offs that are imminent. And so a little shift that I make is like there's no, there's no real shoulds. Like I don't believe in anyone should do anything. I just believe that there are consequences, both good and or perceived good and bad consequences of decision making. If I make a decision, what are the downstream effects of that decision in my own life and the collective of a team? And with you, you know, individually, the the people that you work with, is how do you rationalize some of that decision making that does have downstream, that does carry ripple effects?

SPEAKER_00 39:29

I'm grateful for you sharing kind of some of your own, your own story because I think it's uh there's a soft spot for me in hearing people's journeys and hearing the the range of events, both the highs, the lows, and and the the the triumphs and the and the pain too that have shaped who they become. And uh I think that all becomes really important. And another story that comes to mind is we had a player, this was several years ago, who had had a little bit of time in the big leagues, not a lot, and he had already dealt with a pretty significant injury that had sidelined him for a good chunk of his the start of his professional career. And we're out in the outfield during batting practice. Uh, we were in Los Angeles, so you know, if when you're the team in red in Arizona and you're in Los Angeles, you're in well who knows what was exactly being expressed to us. But I had cultivated this habit of when I'm with the team, I I do like to ask questions. And some of those are, I think, good questions. Uh, some of those I are useless uh for sure, and people will tell you, or they're, you know, I don't know what they serve, but it just it's good conversation. And I remember being in LA and I I asked this question that I had heard in another, I don't even remember where I heard it, but I I adapted it and it the question goes, what's something you're proud of that you don't always get an excuse to talk? And the reason why I've grown to love this question is because whatever someone's answer is, it does tell me a lot about what they value. Because it's again, we get so fixated on achievement, so fixated on pursuing excellence professionally or whatever that comes in, getting that ambition that you described, that I'm not always sure that we stop to like remind ourselves of who where we've gone or what we've what we've overcome, what we've achieved, what we're proud of that we've once done, or the growth that we've had. So I asked this player this question, and we're in the outfield, BP got balls flying all over. And he says, I'm proud, I'm proud of the dad I've been, because I've been everything my dad wasn't. And uh I'll never forget that. Like that was one of the more striking conversations that I will hold very dear and near to my heart for a long time. And, you know, we continue to chat a little bit about it and you know, continued to have conversations and and grew a good relationship over time. And this was in like a he has not gone on to become necessarily this, you know, everyday big leader and this uh, you know, this all-star or anything like that. You know, he's had a little bit of a cup of coffee and continued to carry on. But the reason I share this because two years later, he got injured again, a pretty significant injury. I love this player, but he was not known as the hardest worker. I would not say that he had the best habits per se. And, you know, it was starting to show up in how he was going through the rehab process, and people were kind of catching on. They're like, man, listen, like if he doesn't make a change, he's not gonna stay here. Like, he's not gonna last. And so I went back to that conversation, and he and I had had a lot of conversations about kids and family and so forth over time. But I remember having that conversation with him. And we were talking about the rehab, and he kind of opened up about how uh it was tough. Like he was, you know, he was feeling sorry for himself, and he's like, I know I'm not supposed to, but like that's where I'm at. Like, this is reality. Like this career has not unfolded the way that I dreamt. And, you know, he's going through rehab and it he's dealing with the mundane repetitiveness that rehab brings and everything. Just it's a it's a mental, emotional, spiritual, psychological roller coaster. And I at one point in the conversation, I knew that he had talked about his son before um and how important that was. And I was like, I have to tell you that you have a pretty cool opportunity, which I don't know if that was the best use of language for this, but I I shared with him that you have an opportunity for your son to model what it's like to go through tough things, what it's like to uh pursue a dream when it doesn't happen on your timeline. And there's a lot of things where you're doing everything that you think is right or that you're supposed to, and it's not paying off. And I was like, you have a pretty cool opportunity to show your son how to do that. That was it, that was all I said. And he started to show up differently. And again, I don't think it was I'm I I do not need to take a lot of credit for this. He he he did it, he made the adjustment, and I think many others helped cultivate. This, but it was I share this long-winded to get to your question about that. Is why I think it's so important when we're a coach or a leader, mental performance coach, anything, to help people get clear on where they want to go and also the values that are going to guide and shape them along the way. You know, I love Simon Sinek. I don't know if others are or not. Like, you know, Simon Sinek is popular. I start with why. And I think that's true at a team and org level. But in my experience, when you ask somebody about their why at an individual level, usually they describe a who. They describe somebody that has motivated them, inspired them, shaped them, sacrificed for them to get the opportunities they now possess and they want to pay it back. Or there is someone in their life now they feel very deeply called to show up for, whether that's their players and the people they serve, or whether that's their kids who they model for day to day. So I share all that because those are just a couple of, I guess, personal conversations and stories that I've experienced that I got more out of those than I think others did. Like I've kept those very top of mind for me, and I have certainly been far from perfect. I think I still have a lot of room for growth and I still fight that tug of ambition. You know, I had a moment like that six months ago when, you know, here I made this full transition to my own thing. And, you know, I got to be home more in the mornings and the routines and things like that. And it was very cool. And it was, yeah, this is like, this is what I dreamed of. And I also found myself being like, okay, we got to get the kids out the door. Like, I got stuff to do. Like I got this conversation coming up. I got to send these emails. Like I like, I and I I had this moment where I was like, Zach, you chose this. You know, and I and I and I still have moments like that. So I'm still trying to figure it out. But I that's why I very much love and respect that question and what you've shared too about your own story, because I would imagine in many ways that now very much shows up. Like you've talked about your who, you know, what has shaped you in the past, but also who you now show up for day to day, both professionally and personally.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

You talk a lot of you talk about a lot of goodness in that and the I think about like the the injury side. I know that wasn't like a a big part of that story, but for that athlete, right? And I think about the athletes going through injury and that balance with ambition, the balance with the why, the balance with the who. And even in my own life now, I'm so I'm training for like a track and field event, U.S. master's event. I'll I'll be in the submasters category for 27, February of 27 and July of 27. So I have some time. But for those of you who listen to my podcast, know I've been through some surgeries. So I've had five knee surgeries. I had a major cartilage transplant in 2023. Uh, I had three other surgeries ensue from that for some cleanup and some other things that were going wrong. I was in pretty much chronic pain for two of those three years until this year I finally started to get some relief. And so naturally I go back to that ambition side and I'm like, okay, I gotta start training now for something because I finally feel good enough to train. Still not who I was, still have issues, but like I can do something. Well, within the first month, okay, I pulled my hamstring and I pulled my calf. And so I sit here and I think and I ask myself a lot of those questions. Like, in the how you phrase that to that player, it's I get to show my kids what it is like to have to overcome something. And so I do my best in there four, two, and eight months. But even now, I'll talk to them, hoping that a little bit resonates, or just the compounding over time that message is I'll be like, hey, daddy's hurt right now. And I'm still attempting to do X, Y, or Z. And my daughter, my oldest daughter, is a pretty natural athlete, even at a young age. Like, like swings a golf club and it is like smooth, lefty, like natural. Well, on Father's Day, and what's great is she loves it. Like, I don't have to tell her, hey, let's go practice. She's like, hey, daddy, can we please go outside and hit the golf ball? Like, absolutely. And she really struggled yesterday, like, couldn't hit it. The day before, she's smacking it up the hill, smacking it down the hill into the woods. And then yesterday she kept topping it, couldn't hit it right. And she like starts crying and getting frustrated. And I'm like, hey, I'm like, and like, it's okay. I'm like, remember when we watched Scotty Scheffler? And I was telling you, hey, he's not at his best today, but he keeps trying. And being able to use that in my own experience is like, hey, remember when I told your dad he got hurt and yet you didn't see me when you woke up in the morning because I was at the gym and I came back home? I was like, I was still trying, even though I was hurt. And to be able to like relay those messages, even at like a young age, I think is super powerful for me selfishly, because it gives me an extra bit of why am I doing this? Outside of my own selfish intentions, you know, because I enjoy a physical thrill. But what are the greater lessons as a parent and as a leader of my household that I can utilize with my kids? But then also when I'm talking with athletes, to be like, yeah, hey, I I understand. Like, you know, maybe not directly because I'm not you, but those experiences that we have as humans is really an opportunity or a test, right? Or a part of our story that is to be written, that we control the pen over and the amount of people and the ripple that you can create by making certain decisions. And to, you know, an elongated point though, but there's also a dark side of that because you need to know when to pivot. When it is time to say for me, hey, your body's not cooperating, maybe it's time to walk away. But having at least enough nuance and awareness to know, hey, why am I doing this? And within this, why, what decisions can I make that appropriately affect the whole the best? And so that is as a deep thinker, where I'm constantly having those conversations internally with my wife, with my athletes, is what are the decisions that we making? And at a deeper level, what are we hoping that they prove and how are we writing that into our own narrative?

SPEAKER_00 50:20

I'm probably now more interested and invested in this personal athletic journey that you're re-engaging with. Now obviously you've got your already rich career, but I can tell you what I'm gonna be tuned in for 2027. Okay. So I'm I'm part I'm invested in this story now. So uh we're gonna have to stay, make sure I I need to stay looped in and connected with it because I give you massive credit and kudos for for doing that. And and also I love how you're thinking about it. And and you know, we've talked a little bit offline, and it's so apparent how much your family means to you. And it's so cool to kind of hear you talk a little bit about how, you know, those values are our filter for decisions. They're the filter for our choices. And that doesn't always mean that we get to make easy choices. Um, there's a lot of hard choices. And yet how we talk through those, not only to ourselves, but to others, can shape them. And that's why I like, you know, I love like one of the things that you you've done is, you know, you talk about even the Scotty Scheffler example. It's like it's a beautiful example to share with your kids or whoever, somebody that's listening, of there is others that have gone through that. Because sometimes I think we forget that. You know, I think we're going back to the injury side of it. That is a uh a place where when you're in the pit of it, you can feel like you're alone and you can feel like you're the only one that's navigating it. And and you're obviously navigating it in your own unique way with your own unique emotions, but others have felt those emotions. Others have felt setbacks and so forth. So I love how that now is is is maybe a lens that you one are already doing, but how it will continue to be shaping your decisions. The other side of this is trying to remember exactly how you asked your question. So sorry, by the way, if we can edit this out or we keep it, I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

I'll say a lot of like something I've worked on is asking a question without asking a question. And we could keep this in the pod too. We talk about, you know, reflection and you know, hosting, and that's a skill, like this skill I've tried to develop, right? I didn't even ask a question, but just you know, finish that in the sense of like there's so much that that goes on internally. And some people don't think like that, and that's perfectly fine. But a lot of us have these conflicting things, and how do we orchestrate and put adversity into our story and how we respond and how we show up for our kids or those that we care about? And that's like for me, the the what I'm constantly working with is like filtering those downstream decisions of when I make a decision, how is it the best for the collective?

SPEAKER_00 52:55

One thing that we know too, and and you know this well through not only your own athletic experiences, the professional coaching work and things that you do now, but also the like guests that you've had. How much perspective plays a role in the pursuit of excellence? Uh, how much perspective plays a role in our resilience. And I share that because what in essence you're describing too is how important it is sometimes to make sure that you are reframing the moments, like we have a choice in how what kind of narrative we choose to use and and describe the events in our life, you know. Like I think this is where you hear all the adages about like we life doesn't bring meaning to us. We're the ones who we experience events and we bring the meaning and significance within that. And I I love the the distinction that you're describing. You know, my family, my wife and I, we've we've joked about this because uh, you know, we started, I don't know whether this is gonna be helpful or not, uh, to like others or this is the right parenting technique. But we uh, you know, we talk a lot about like when our kids are when we are at work, we don't just say like mommy's at work or daddy's at work. Like we always will be like, hey, mommy's gonna go help people. Like mommy's going to try to like you know help people to achieve their dreams. Now he obviously doesn't, he's he's two and a half. He he doesn't quite fully know per se, other than he does know help people, but it's awesome because she was gone for a couple of days. She went and did like a conference, and I picked him up from daycare, and one of the teachers was like, Hey, is your wife okay? He brought up something about she went on an airplane and had to help people and all this. And I was like, Oh, that's how we that's how we described it for him, you know. And so just that that idea of like how you how you position, how you describe events, your experiences can matter not only for you, but for others. And I think this is also where it becomes really important because you you're talking about, I think, the the internal wrestling match that many high achievers wrestle with, which is sometimes the guilt of what it takes to pursue your goals and your dreams. And uh, you know, I think this is back where I think it's so easy to think about what your kids lose in your absence and also though what they gain from it. You know, like they get to go see dad, like go achieve his dreams, they get to go see mom help people achieve their dreams, they get to go see what it's like to model hard work, ambition, doing hard things, all of that. And I don't know always if that makes it quote unquote easier, but I tell myself that a lot. That just reflect reframing kind of how you think about that, uh, I I find has become a really important piece. But it's also the same types of things that we do with players, the same types of things that we do for athletes is is helping them navigate their journey sometimes. With I'm not, I I tell players all the time, like most of what, especially at the big league level, I'm not telling you a lot of stuff you don't already know. Like you got to that point on your own, either through a lot of training, a lot of direct experience, or you know, maybe you've had some help along the way, but like you, you didn't need me per se. But I am there to serve as a reminder. I'm there when we inevitably fall off course to help you keep things in perspective. And I had this conversation with someone just recently. You know, we were talking about the difference between a major league and a minor league coach. And at the major league level, you really got to be good at a transferring belief in those that you serve because you're now failing more than you've ever failed. And you also feel like everything is weighted differently. Like going 0 for three in the big leagues is not the same as going 0 for three in AAA, and it feels different. So I share all that because I think a lot of the work that we have to do as coaches, as leaders, as middle performance, and so on is helping keep things in perspective. And a lot of that is going to be rooted in how we choose to explain the events in our lives or others' lives.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

You it's funny you described a lot of like what we do in our household because my wife's a surgical physician's assistant. And so I love to tell my kids, like, mommy's going to save lives today. Because literally she does. Like part of what she does is save lives. And to not belabor the point with the kids, I just there is such a direct parallel between leading a household and leading others. But when I first started the this trek into this journey of my you know, track and field event is I always, of course, Velcro to like the negativity bias. But I was like, my our kids need to see me suffer and they need to see how I respond to it. I was like, they need to see that as an example. And I need to hold myself, talk about leadership and knowing the freedoms that I give up. I can't let them or I can't get into that victim mindset when inevitably I'm going to go through some type of adversity, whether I lose or come in last place or whether I get hurt, whatever it is, they need to see how I respond so I can set that example for them. And if I don't pursue something meaningful in my own life, why would me telling my kids ever inspire them to do the same? And, you know, from a leadership perspective, whether you're a coach or whatever, still being able to, maybe not to that degree, because pretty much everyone in those environments understands that they're at a very, very high level. But when you're a coach, you need to, or the players need to see how you set the temperature in a room for whatever is needed. If you need to bring the energy, can you bring the energy? If you need to be stoic and calm, can you be stoic and calm when the moment requires? And having that skill set to meet the demand of the moment, whether you're a parent or whether you're a leader, is something I've become obsessed with. And I work to the utmost of my capabilities to be able to have the skill set for me to meet the demand of the moment that is required with whomever I'm speaking with.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

I think that's a great way to describe the uh the concept that comes up for me. Some may be familiar with John Maxwell, that John Maxwell is obviously like a well-regarded thought leader and on leadership. And he uh in I don't forgive me, I don't remember what exact book that he discusses this, but he has a concept that he calls the law of the lid. So the law of the lid is this idea on a scale of one to ten, every leader walks around in a building at a certain level of their capability. Like a 10 being like, imagine the best leader that you've ever worked with, that you've ever served under, and so on. Like that's the 10. One are the ones that make some quit their jobs and leave them and you know, try to forget. Uh, and then you have everybody in in between. The law of the lid, though, emphasizes that whatever your level is, as the person in charge, as the head of it, if you're a head coach, for example, if you're a CEO and so on, it'll be very difficult for your people to get to a level higher than you. Because what happens is you create this figurative lid. It's not always malicious, it's not always intentional, but we don't realize sometimes how we stunt the growth and development of those that we serve. A great example of this, going back to your point of like, okay, if you want your team to be stoic and composed, like, do you model that? We talk about this uh we ask players every day to get outside their comfort zone. When is the last time you, as the coach or the leader, purposefully stepped outside of your comfort zone? If you want that in others, then you have to emulate that yourself. And so, in the same vein, if you're seven as a leader and you have certain areas you need to hone, like it becomes increasingly important for you to make sure that you hone in on some of those things. Now, this isn't just about chasing weaknesses or filling in all your gaps per se, but it is about how as a leader, you need to continue to pour into yourself. You need to continue to make sure that you're focusing on your growth and development because a better you will create a better them. And so that for me is I think a really important component in all of this. And again, that's in the concept or the context of development and learning. But I think you could apply that in in other ways. Like if you're if you're three on the reactive scale as a leader and your emotional volatility is is going up and down with how the latest game is going, I'm not saying again that others can't get higher, but they're gonna have a very hard time doing it sustainably. And they're gonna keep bumping up against you in the process because you're the one, as you described, setting the temperature for the culture. And so that's one reason why, or that's one way that I think about it. And I think in this era too, you know, we we live in in an era where we talk about like, you know, information now is so easy, like knowledge is in his heart, right? In a lot of ways. So that for many was the strength. That was their their tool, that was their the thing that helped propel them to a certain role. Now it's a little bit easier in some ways to to gather that and whatnot, uh, or to hone that skill. And so I share all that because I think it becomes increasingly important for you as a leader to continue to model the things that you want reciprocated from those that you don't, because again, you're seeing more and more like highly capable tins. More and more. It doesn't mean that there are more, but you're seeing more and more highly capable. Sometimes, though, they are in an environment where maybe that's getting stunted.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

I transition everything into like the lens of identity and how everything that you just talked about to me is downstream from identity. And what type of person are you? What type of leader are you? How do you show up and how do your behaviors and actions reflect the type of person and leader that you want to be? And there's the cyclical nature of identity and in the flow of how I discuss it is you profess an identity and then your behaviors, you go and live that out to reflect that identity. And then those behaviors and reflect and reflect or uh behaviors and actions confirm that identity. And the important part in the process, right, is in the realm of adaptability, is understanding that those things are going to change. Who you want to be is going to evolve and change. The question is, how dynamic are you in it? Is it fluid? Is your circumstances or environment making those changes for you? Or are you taking some agency and taking the approach? And again, with the application of new information, being dynamic in your approach and how you shift and change and adopt a new identity and how it again just trickles and downstreams in not only your personal life, but in how you serve others as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

I think we share a lot of alignment in terms of that being kind of at the at the foundational level of the work, whether it's in a perform, you know, as an athlete, as a performer competitor, or we're talking about a leader, a coach, and so on. Like I feel very similar that I want to get clarity on you from an identity standpoint in order to then guide and shape our behavior and so on. So two things came up for me as you were describing this. The first one I've never actually shared. I'm I'm I'm workshopping this idea live. Okay. I've I've had some conversations with someone, but I've never shared it live. So maybe this will make sense, maybe I won't. We'll see. You can correct it. But I had a great conversation. Her name is Chloe. She is now a mental performance coach for the Arizona Dive Backs. And we were having a great conversation about, I think most of us have heard we should define our values. What I think sometimes gets forgotten is we should probably choose the order of how they're prioritized. Because what I run up against is there are moments where like, I do care about my health. I do care about my well-being. And I got to choose between do I go to the gym and I work out, or do I use this half an hour to get this work done or to spend time with my kids or whatever. Like, I value all of it. And I don't know that we always talk about that sometimes. And so uh this is the part where I'm I'm kind of workshopping this live, is I almost view it like a like a starting five, which some would say is too many values, but for the purposes of the analogy, it's like in basketball, like who's your starting five? But not every player on the court is a star. But who do you want to create shots for? Right? If it the game's on the line, like who's the person? In essence, what value are you prioritizing? And they all matter, they all contribute. But I don't know that I've always done a great job of with those that I've worked with, of really getting clear on like, well, what's the order of them? Because that is also then going to shape your identity and it's going to shape who who you become. We know that too, because life occurs in seasons. So the season that I'm in. Now, family is very, very high. It used to be high, but it wasn't number one. Like I spent a lot of time focused on my craft. I spent a lot of time focused on my profession and so forth. So there's a season in life where your values, your starting five, will shift a little bit. But I think that becomes an important part of the uh of the conversation around identity is can we get clear on our values, which I think most discuss, but can we also get clear on which ones you want to create room for? Goes back to like the calendar analogy. Like, you know, are you prioritizing your values on your calendar in whatever order that matter to you? That you can. Again, it doesn't always mean that it will be equal time, but we can prioritize it. The other thing I'll just quickly share is so I had a conversation months ago, another organization, uh, another sport. He's um he's uh in a director role for the organization. He had just transitioned into that role over the last three or four months, but he wants to he he reached out to me and he's like, Hey, I heard what you're doing for coaches and leaders. I'd love to explore, you know, working together. He's like, I feel like there's some things where I could improve. So he starts to talk about his situation. The analogy he used, which was great, I've been asked to fly the plane. I've never flown before. I'm also supposed to patch it because it's on fire. Like I'm having to fly it and figure out how to patch it. And oh, by the way, there is a co-pilot next to me who used to be in the pilot seat, and it was not their choice to move into the co-pilot seat. And I'm like, oh, okay, that is messy. Like, especially because as we talk, talk about your starting five and your values, like they have very different values alignment. So we were sitting there talking, and and where we started to get into is I go back to like the resistance earlier or the interference, because I was asking them about ways in which, like, it's very clear what the external interference is here. What I wanted to know though is what's happening where you feel as though on an individual level, you're maybe getting in your own way. And, you know, one example is he's like, hey, man, like I've I've built my career on having to make difficult decisions and you know, factoring a lot of information and people's input and so forth to do that. And I'm kind of questioning that sometimes. Like I find myself kind of um doubting myself in the room and in spaces that I didn't do that before. So, in our very first conversation, one of the things that we did is I asked him about his dream. That was where we started. I said, Tell me where you want to go, tell me what direction you want to move towards. And he said, I think it'd be cool one day to be an assistant GM. And I said, Okay, great. Like, well, I love that. Like, let's talk about why that's important to you, what that looks like, and so on. But later on in the conversation, he's telling me all this, the circumstances. And finally I asked him, let's say that future assistant GM of you, or that future assistant GM version of you becomes you today. What's the what would the what advice would they give you? What's the first thing that they're you're doing that they would stop doing? What's the first thing that they would add or change or whatever the case might be? And it became kind of a filter. We use this aspirational identity, this aspirational self. And then it became, to your point, a downstream exercise for us to now know, okay, in order to move closer to that, here's what I need to do this week. Here's what I need to do in this next meeting, here's what I need to do when I go home with my family, and so on. And it and so I very much resonate with what you're describing about using identity as a downstream uh, you know, kind of exercise and and foundation for how we help guide people towards not just change, but I think more sustainable change.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:53

I'm obsessed with that starting five analogy. I think that is awesome in how the the value system or hey, you not everyone's gonna be an elite scorer, right? And so understanding your own values, where does the priorities and actions align? That's awesome. And then I've the second exercise that that you point out, I love to utilize, hey, the version of Colin that you want to become, what would they tell you to do right now? What would they tell you to do in your current situation? Or if you need a different perspective, if you were, I think I heard this one from Joe Rogan. If you were the main character of a movie, what would the entire audience be screaming at you to do right now? And I think those things are so important in the realm of identity, values, and the things that we choose to do. But I certainly want to be respectful of your time. I loved having you on today. Eventually we're gonna have to do a part two. I think that there's a lot more that I'd love to talk about if you'd be willing to come back on in the future. But I can't thank you enough for coming on, man. If people want to reach out to you, um, they want to see what you got going on, where where can they find you? And uh, you know, please share with us anything new you got working on.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

Well, I think first off, thank you for the invitation. And the feeling is very mutual. I've um, whether it's been sadly not maybe as explicitly expressed on my end as it should be, I've definitely taken things from what you've shared between social posts and and uh different clips and things that I've seen from others or yourself. So I I love I love the conversation. This is the type of conversation that you know, selfishly I I get a big kick out of. So I'm just grateful for you to create in space for that. But also it's really cool to hear what's important to you and what again, you shared some of this offline, but then how that then also shows up to how you host it and how you guide it and stuff. So I love the synergy between all of that. And you know, I think for anybody that does want to connect, I I do love connecting. We talked we started off with the Twitter thing, and you know, I think there's been a lot of really cool relationships and connections. So yeah, I'm I'm on X, I'm on Twitter, uh, I think it's at MVP underscore mindset. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on I've started Instagram. I debate every day whether or not I should cancel it or or or um change it. And then uh, but yeah, as of now, as of whenever this airs, we'll see if I'm on it. Uh that's at I think Zach Brandon Coaching. And then uh yeah, have a podcast. So that's I think those are in a newsletter. So those are kind of big ones in terms of people if they, you know, if they're interested in content and ideas, but I think more than anything, it's always just fun to like have conversations real life. And so I always offer kind of like a free kind of coaching call. It's just it's it's just simply a space to you get to offload what's going on in your mind and where you want to go and you know, maybe what's getting in the way. And I'll try to ask some different questions to kind of illuminate some things and you know, see if I can point you towards something that would be helpful or uh, you know, have another conversation around that. So yeah, any of those are great, but I think more than anything, too, I think uh what I would end with is uh for anybody listening, if these are the types of conversations that you know resonate in some form, I would encourage them to keep tuning into your podcast because I know how much they show up in uh in the not only the individual clips and moments that you describe, but also with some of the guests. So so thank you so much for the the opportunity to share.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:17

Hey, Zach. I appreciate it. I appreciate the kind words and genuinely looking forward to getting you back on it in the future when when your schedule permits. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Tune in next week. Check us out, athleticforteshoot.com, subscribe to our YouTube channel, download the pod. Five stars only. Appreciate you, my friend.