Episode 34 - UPenn Professor on the Firm Goals, Flexible Means Framework That Reaches Every Learner - Dr. Katie Novak, Ed.d

In this episode of the SupportED Learning Podcast, Dr. Joe Sebestyen sits down with Dr. Katie Novak, bestselling author of UDL Now!, former assistant superintendent, and one of the most widely followed voices in Universal Design for Learning, to explain why most schools are quietly built for a student who doesn't exist. 

Dr. Joe Sebestyen and Dr. Katie Novak discuss what schools, teachers, and families need to do differently, including the firm goals, flexible means framework at the heart of UDL, why doing well on tests is a skill that doesn't transfer to lifetime success unless it's braided with self-motivation and perseverance, and how to give every student multiple pathways to the same standard. Katie also explains why the United States tests kids more than any country in the world without better outcomes, why schools reward performance over growth, and why she keeps showing up even when only 5% of educators give her positive feedback.

This episode is especially useful for school administrators rethinking how their system serves all learners, K-12 teachers building inclusive classrooms, instructional coaches scaling UDL across a building, and parents of kids who don't fit the mold the school was built around. Katie gives a clear, practical framework for replacing the mythical average learner with real ones — and finally building a system that meets kids where they actually are.

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Remember to share this podcast with fellow parents and educators who are passionate about reimagining education for tomorrow's world. Until next time, keep supporting learning! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be. I'm Dr. Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, Bloom's Taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning. Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education.

unknown 0:28

Dr.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Katie Novak believes the education system is designed for a student who doesn't exist. She calls it a mythical, average learner. And she says it's the reason most kids struggle in school. Not because they can't learn, but because the system wasn't built for them. In the next hour, she's going to explain why and what parents can actually do about it. Welcome back to the Supported Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Joe Sebastian. Families often ask me how to navigate the maze of college and admissions and uh high school K-12 education, and especially college admissions, without wasting thousands of dollars or hundreds of hours of time. And the answer usually involves finding the people who have figured out the rules of the game that schools aren't telling you. So that's why I'm thrilled to have Dr. Katie Novak here today. Katie is a former assistant superintendent, the author of 16 books, including the best sell best-selling UDL Now, an adjunct professor at University of Pennsylvania, a consultant who's worked with the Gates Foundation and NASA, and the host of the Educational Table Podcast. She's worked in 33 states and 28 countries, and her frameworks have produced immeasurable results, increased graduation rates, more students taking AP exams, and fewer students getting pushed out of the system. Dr. Katie, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Absolutely. It's my honor. That's that's a quite a resume you have on it. So obviously, I kind of went through all of that, but just take me back. How did Dr. Katie and Dr. Katie get a start in education? And what how did you get to where you started to where you are now?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

So I actually have to bring it all the way back. I have to throw it all the way back to when I was in high school because despite the fact that I have been able to create this path that has allowed me to experience incredible success, I was not a successful student. I was back in the 90s when I was in high school, and it was like very heavy tracking. And people always thought of me as the kid who was athletic. I was nice to everybody, but uh I was not like the stellar student. And I was always trapped in the lowest classrooms. And you know, I applied to University of New Hampshire and got weightlisted. So uh it's kind of funny that I've ended up where I am, but I really think it's because my senior year teacher, Mrs. Paula Krause, kind of took me aside and was like, Why are you in this class? What are you doing? And I was like, what are you talking about? And she's like, I've looked at your very early work and I think that you're a really brilliant writer, like not technically at all, because most things are spelled wrong, but I really want you to know that you can compete. Like I talked to your track coach, your track coach said you're a bull. I'm putting you in honors class. And I was like, I don't want to be with them, right? Like, and you're going back in the 90s where we had been separated forever. And so, you know, you have your AP classes, and then you have your honors classes, then you have your CP1, and then you have your CP2, and that's like my people. And I don't know if you have ever seen The Wizard of Oz, where Dorothy comes from like black and white to like technicolor. But when I walked into an honors class, it was like that. I was like, wait, this has been happening the whole time. What is where is this place? Because it was, you know, hey, we're gonna be doing a drama. How do we want to do it? And these classmates of mine were like, oh, you know what? We should write a grant to get a bus to take us down to the elementary school, and then we'll do one act plays and we'll do donation. And I was like, we're not just gonna read from the textbook, like, what is this? So right away I was like angry. And I like loved my teachers previously. Like I liked school, but no one ever expected me to do well. And I was the kid who was always moved for talking, but you really couldn't move me anywhere because I talked to everyone. I liked everyone. And when I realized that there was this other path, I was like, I want to be a teacher, I want to do this. And so I have been in education my whole life because of Mrs. Krause. And I've always tried to really advocate for all students having opportunities to access the highest level opportunities because ultimately we can be successful when we get the conditions right. And there's a lot of opportunity gaps in education. And ultimately, I'm really, really invested in trying to ensure that everybody gets the luck of the draw that I did, that they have access to these opportunities that set them up for much more successful paths in their future.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Don't you think that's interesting that um making that transition so abruptly from what would be like a general-ed class, right? Or general ed classroom to an honors class or to a higher level, it's just much more engaging. Kids are having higher-level conversations and the teachers teach differently. Is that what you think? And so what does that say about where we where we're going wrong in education? And I guess kind of the tied into a question that I have for parrot is like, you know, you've been in 33 states, 28 countries, and you've been in the system for over 20 years. What are we getting wrong right now?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

I think that the greatest opportunity for growth is to recognize that there is so much value in firm goals and flexible means. And I think that we're still trying to do a lot in this kind of narrow, one size fits all way that may work for many students, but doesn't work for all of them. And I think what is more problematic is that even students who can do traditionally well, if they comply with these practices, they generally don't always understand how they learn best. And when they have the opportunity to independently learn something, to be able to transfer that knowledge to really authentic, personalized learning. And so when I learned to teach, I was a high school and a middle school English teacher. It was very much, you know, hey, this is how you write an essay. You know, you have to use this graphic organizer and you have to use these sentence stems, and it needs to be this long. And as a professional writer, I don't take any of that advice, right? If I was a student in my class, I would say, but that's not how I produce really great writing. That's not my process. Why are you making me like align to that process? And I think the same is true with such, say, note-taking, right? There's a lot of really cool research that note-taking, as in writing down what someone tells you to write down, is actually not a very good method to build understanding. How do we transition from note-taking to note making, which is how do I figure out more about how I learn best and how I organize my thoughts? And how do I make sure that whatever I'm putting down in terms of visible thinking, that I can come back and use that and understand that? And it turns out that lots of people benefit from lots of different strategies. And so instead of saying we all have to take notes like this, it would be much more beneficial for educators to say, let me teach you all of the evidence-based-based ways to make notes. And I want you to try these out and I want you to reflect deeply on which of these actually serve you as a learner, what sets you up to do your best work so that you can then take that and transfer that to college and careers, to meetings, you know, as an adult. And so I think that we are often stuck with we need to do things this way, as opposed to realizing that is one way to do it, but we have to be open that there's other ways as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

So you talk about this mythical average learner and the the idea that the most of our curriculum is designed for students who don't exist. Can you break that down for us? And what does that look like for the average parent out there that their kid is struggling to make sense of learning, either at any level?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yes, absolutely. So uh I'll start off with an analogy because I love analogies. And, you know, I am a mom of four. So I see this in my own house. I have three teenagers, I have an 11-year-old, and I want you to imagine that I invite all of you listeners to my house for a dinner party. And I think about like, hmm, what does like an average person like to eat? And I'm going with like a meat and cheese lasagna and some good red wine. And sure, like that'll work for some people. But the wild thing about this is I know for sure that if you come to my house and that's the only thing I serve, you're totally excluded from having a lovely meal and a drink if you are sober, if you are lactose intolerant, if you have a plant-based diet, or if you're like, I don't just I don't love Italian food. It's just, it's not my thing. And so what we realize is when we design lessons that are in a one size fits all, right, we're not really thinking about, but what actually is the goal? Because if the goal is let's have a lovely meal together, then I would definitely create more of a potlock or more of a buffet. And as a teacher, instead of saying, if I want all of you to really understand deeply this profound grade level text and I hand it out in hard copy and say, read it silently and annotate it and make sense of it, I'm excluding kids who might struggle with uh visual processing, who are not yet decoding at grade level, who even just struggle with just seeing a copy paper, right? If I don't have my contact lenses, is I am out. And we tend to not recognize that some students, in order to access that text, are really going to need the option to first, you know, be reminded of comprehension strategies, to know what their options are for annotating that text. We have to provide opportunities to activate background knowledge, to have students have deep conversations about that text, to see exemplars of really brilliant responses and annotations to text. And some students are going to need more support than others. And so it's not about me trying to say, this is what every kid needs, but based on variability, I know that some kids are going to need opportunities to accelerate their learning. They're going to need enrichment. And I know that there's other students who might need support. And depending on the day, that could change. But what I know is that the most important skill in our future right now, in this bizarre world where we're competing with robots, is analytic thinking, self-awareness, curiosity. We need kids to understand that they can set themselves up for success if they make more responsible choices about their learning. But then I have to be flexible and provide those options to say, come to my house, here's your options, try some things out, and now make yourself complete.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Do you think we're casting broad strokes of generalization right now? Okay. Do you think in the average, let's just say secondary classroom, that happens? We're teaching analytical skills intentionally.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

I think some, absolutely. And I think where we haven't seen that yet, it generally is that we're not creating necessarily a clear instructional vision that we want all students to experience deeper learning. We want students to think critically. We want them to understand their voice and to write authentically. And that requires a very different type of instruction. And so I think it starts out with a community coming together saying, we have this portrait of a graduate where we want our kids to think critically. We want them to build an understanding of technical literacy. We want them to be curious, lifelong learners. And from there, you then have to say, well, how will we be able to measure whether or not they are reaching toward that vision? What is our measurement of these transferable skills? And if a needs assessment highlights that we do not have those skills yet, and you can look at lots of different things: focus groups with students, surveys with families, observations in classrooms, really intensive, you know, analytic, kind of critical analysis of student assignments and things like that. If we say this is a need, then teachers need professional learning on how to build that as a skill set. And so I think sometimes it's just highlighting that doing really well on tests is a skill. It's not necessarily a skill that will transfer over to a lifetime of success if it doesn't also get braided in with being self-motivated and thinking analytically and being resourceful and having perseverance with difficult tasks. We have to braid that together if we want kids to be successful.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

So break it down for families because you know you're a strong advocate of UDL. What is it? How does it affect learners? And how do families know if schools are implementing those principles at their school? Or how do parents know? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yes. So we want everybody to know. We want students to know, we want teachers to know, we want families to know. Ultimately, UDL is about firm goals and flexible means. And I would say that firm goals come first. So instructional clarity is absolutely critical across the board, which is in every single course, we really want educators to be able to communicate this is what all students have to know undo in this course. This is the very transparent success criteria. Here are some examples of success. That's instructional clarity. And then, given that all of us need to end up here, what are the construct-relevant pathways that will get us there? And so we just start thinking about well, what are the potential options? What are the pathways that I could offer? And then how do I create a space where students are having lots of opportunities to say, if this is what you're required to work towards, would you rather do it this way or would you rather do it this way? Because there are a couple of different strategies that you can leverage. And so, you know, even going back to preparing for, you know, AP exams or their international baccalaureate, right? The diploma program is when you're even talking about standardized testing in general, many of us who have been very successful on standardized tests have very, very different strategies for how we kind of go into a testing environment. And whenever I'm around, you know, educators, I'll always say, you know, I was told this is how you study, this is how you prepare, this is how you go through the test. But now, as a very self-aware lifelong learner, I realize that I would never in a million years start reading any text in any standardized text before I went ahead and looked at what are going to be the questions that I'm gonna have to answer.

unknown 15:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

And so I would write that down. What is the purpose for reading? Right. And then I would go in. And why would I write it down is because my brain is neurodivergent and I might forget. And so if I have it in front of me, I know that's really, really important for me. And then some people will also look at the multiple choice questions and the multiple choice answers, but I would never do that because I get very manipulated by the multiple choice options. And so instead, I like to find my own answer and then see if there's a match before I start looking at what my options are. And other people who are equally adept at taking these tests would say, Oh my gosh, I would never do it. And so I think sometimes it's just having these conversations to say, do you have options in school? What is the success criteria? What are you working towards? Because let's say that your students are working towards a content standard. A content standard is a grade level standard that starts with a word like explain, analyze, interpret, justify, evaluate, right? And it doesn't necessarily say in writing. And so if I want a learner to understand how does water moves through the environment and how is that impacted by gravity and sun, truly, there are lots of ways you can learn that. You can find some really great videos from NASA, you could find some really core text as long as you understand how to find really reputable evidence-based texts. You could work by yourself or you could work with a small group. You could join the teacher for some small group instruction and ask questions. You could find somebody and zoom them and ask them questions like a scientist. There's so many ways to learn that. And then there's an equal amount of ways to share what you know, which might be my group and I want to create a series of social media videos that explains it, or another group might want to go down to the middle school and teach that lesson. And someone else might do a really brilliant job of creating a scientific text, but the rubric, the success criteria, has to be the same. And so it's firm goals and flexible means. And when you're working on a standard that say writing, the writing is non-negotiable, right? But then what are the success criteria for brilliant writing? Right. You need exemplars, you need opportunities to conference. And so it all comes down to, I would say, you know, when you're in school every day, like what are you learning? Why are you learning it? What's the criteria for success? What options do you have for learning? What options do you have for meeting that criteria? And when people are saying, yes, absolutely, I have that flexibility, you would have a sense that they're the school is likely providing professional development on what does it mean to universally design learning? What does it mean to design learning with firm goals and flexible means? So all students have the same opportunities to access learning as they work towards grade level standards and share their learning. Now, that does not minimize the need to then differentiate instruction based on formative assessment data. Because if I have students who on a formative assessment are really struggling with a concept, I'm gonna pull a small group and I'm gonna target instruction based on that misconception. So we're both going to universally design with firm goals and flexible means, and then we're going to be responsive to student data and target instruction and provide feedback and to build more reflection.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

So definitely speak in the educational language, 100%. I run into families all the time. So we obviously in my so in my day job, I hit it with as an assistant principal. I was kind of beaten into me in year two in a DC charter school of you have to have an objective, has to be measurable, and you have to have some kind of assessment. There has to be some way to measure did learning take place. And obviously, there's a bunch of different ways. If you're building the skills, you can use gradual release, all that stuff.

unknown 19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

What I see now, I see um, and I'm saying just more broadly, I see a lack of concrete objectives and measurable assessments. Um, I see objectives and I don't see did learning take place. We know maybe no measurements. But now, as I in my job of a business of talking to families from all across the country, we hear we have I we we try to market AP exams measure skills, they don't measure content knowledge, they measure what you can do, you have to know content, but apply it, analyze it, evaluate, synthesize. Right? I taught IB for four years. So I all the principles we teach in the writing part of it comes from that because um it's such a brilliant curriculum if you structure it correctly. So for parents out there that are like, okay, this all sounds a lot, like a grade, it sounds great. I don't know. My right now I have there's two kids, there's two parents out there heading into the exams in May for AP. We have the A student that has no idea they're heading for a colossal failure or underperformance on their AP exam because the grade, let's face it, Dr. Katie, is not measuring anything real. It's just participation and homework and projects not aligned to the AP curriculum. Or we have a student that's panicking. Their parents are panicking because their straight A child is getting a B for the first time and they're a colossal failure to their family right now. But the B actually might be the signal that hey, there might be a skill deficit here because they're actually assessing a line to the curriculum. So my question is how do you how do you explain it to those two families? How do they self correct and how do how do they implement the frameworks you're talking about to help their kids?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

I mean, I'm you've probably talked about this before, but grades in general are incredibly problematic because they're so subjective. And when I'm looking at a grade from a Student in one school or a student in another school, some schools will bottom out at 50 and some bottom out at a zero, right? So if the lowest score you can get is a 50, you're gonna have a very different grade than if the lowest score you can get is a zero. Whether or not there's deductions for late work, whether or not there's extra credit that is offered, whether or not a retake replaces a grade or is average with a grade. And so I think that one of the challenges and just education in general is that uh an actual grade does not necessarily represent true mastery of content knowledge and skills. And I think that the education community in general is aware that that is a significant barrier and many schools are working to create systems where grades are better representations of student learning. What I would say, in particular, as we're working towards an IB exam or an SAT or an AP exam, is what I think is brilliant is the field has done a really nice job to provide a lot of scaffolding with practice tests and sample work. And I think that in some ways, if a student is really struggling, you know, I would probably say, you know, let's just take a moment and let's look and see how this test is actually going to be designed. Let's look at what is the core knowledge and what are the core skills. Let's look at some of these practice guides and, you know, some of these scaffolds for how do you prepare yourself for this? And I think that that's probably a better method of saying, am I prepared to do this? Right. When I look at this rubric, when I look at the exemplar for, you know, what gets you a five, is this similar to my work? What is similar about this? What is different about this? And in some ways, that can help to identify some skill deficits, certainly, because I know that there's a lot of students across the country for whom might have straight A's and not get a four or five on the AP, and other students who might have a B and get a four or five on the AP. So I think it's more about diving into the authentic nature of what is that assessment? What is that assessment going to require, looking at some of those exemplars, and then from there saying, Do I feel confident in this area? And then taking some practice tests. And some students might find, you know what, I am much better prepared than I thought I was. And some students might say, Well, there's some really significant deficits, and now I know essentially the skills I need to target. And the goal would be that a student knows enough about themselves as a learner that when they can articulate or identify an area of growth, they're able to leverage resources available to them online, in school, you know, reaching out to Honor Society for tutoring, reaching out to teachers to actually advocate and say, this is something I know I need to work on. Can you help me with this? Like that really is one of the most important skills that students can have.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Self-avocation or avocation. Like be okay. The what was gonna say? I was gonna have a good one. Come on. Right, I'm writing down questions as they generate. But the oh yeah, so okay. Your you what you're hitting on is a mindset as well. Well, and I love that you know, you have a blog post called the Loch Ness Monster, Yeti's Bigfoot, and learning styles. Yeah, you love your analogies, you're right. You said learning styles, I don't visual learners, auditory learners, they're all a myth. And I think I hear this come out like my kid is not my kid, or I'm not a good blank in blank. I'm not, I don't, so I'm bad at this skill, which I it's a fixed mindset, not a growth mindset in a in a school where we're supposed to be designing learning experiences, but and then I can't learn this way because I am a visual learner. So break down this myth for families and why are they wrong, or why are why are we wrong as a society for saying I am an auditory learner, I'm a visual learner. This episode is brought to you by supported tutoring, where we don't just help students get better grades, we help them become critical thinkers. Whether it's mastering AP exams, maximizing college applications, or building lifelong learning habits, our expert tutors focused on critical thinking, confidence, and real growth. Head to supportedtutoring.com to find the support your student deserves.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Well, some of it is semantics, and we'll talk about that. So the theory of learning styles, the theory was present before we could really see what was happening in people's brains through things like fMRI scans. And the idea was that we are wired for certain types of learning, right? This some people have a stronger visual cortex or some people have a right, and and the idea was that that is the way that you need to learn. And if we move away from this idea of learning styles, and instead we say, certainly we have some cognitive strengths and certainly we have some learning preferences, that would be more accurate. But the actual theory of learning styles is that this is how we learn in one way. But research has really explored and been able to argue that everything about learning is so contextual that it actually leads to people not exploring how do I learn best in this situation? So, for example, somebody might say, you know what, I am really not an auditory learner. But what if we're working on speaking and listening standards? Right. Right? Like when you're focused on speaking and listening standards, ultimately you have to say, in order for me to process this and to be able to master what it means to be a really active listener, you know, what might that look like for me? What are the strategies? What are the tools? And sometimes it's what is the endurance of having to build that? Because although if you're in a lecture, you can certainly take notes. If I am a really good friend of yours and I'm leaving forward and I'm really upset and you need to show me compassion and actively listen, don't take notes, right? I will go off the handle if I am like sharing my life story and you're like, hold on, I just want to write that down. Right. So ultimately, it's about understanding that different contexts will require different strategies. And so when we set ourselves up and say, you know what, I'm an auditory learner, already we're essentially saying, I'm not gonna learn it this way. And what we know is that ultimately we need to say, based on this context, this is how I have to set myself up for success. Because it's never about, you know, I can't learn it this way or I have to learn it this way. It's about like, yes, for me, visual memory is a strength, absolutely. And I prefer to maybe listen to books than, you know, read them. But it all comes down to what actually is the goal. Because although I believe that my reading comprehension is definitely probably stronger if I have a text in front of me, I also have a pretty busy schedule. And there's no way that I could read as much as I wanted to if it required me to always have a text in front of me. And so sometimes I listen to books in the car and I listen to books while I'm running. And it's a great example of it's not that I'm an auditory learner or a visual learner. It's when I'm in the car and I want to enjoy beautiful literature, I simply don't have the option to be able to have a hard copy of that text. And so a lot of the times with students in my own teaching, in my graduate work, is you know, I'll often say to someone, all right, there's a couple different ways that you could learn about universal design for learning. So let's just start with a very basic what does the framework mean? Would you rather read something? Would you rather listen to something, or would you rather watch something? And don't jump to it. Think about how your week looks. Think about how busy you are. Now, if you decide I really want to read something, do you want to read it by printing it out and annotating it? Or do you want to access it digitally, which will be read aloud to you, or do you need to translate it? If you want to listen to something, that's great. If you walk your dog every morning and you realize you're busy. But you might say, I love podcasts, but I actually like to read the transcript while I'm going. And viewing is great if you're right. So there's not one where you're like, I'm an auditory learner, I'm gonna watch the video or I'm gonna, right? It comes down to what is the task, what is the context? So it's just more complicated than that. And the American Psychological Association has actually gone on record to say beliefs and learning styles is actually incredibly detrimental and it leads to much lower levels of learning because people just get stuck and they're like, well, I just can't do it, as opposed to given that this is all I have, how do I make it work in this context?

SPEAKER_01 31:21

So you have visited many education systems around the world, and you know, we hear the American education system is failing or it's behind. And so, you know, I've done the research too. I've been in the principal induction programs that have looked at Singapore and South Korea and Finland. What are other systems, what are other countries getting right about education? What are we getting wrong? And what are we still getting right that others are not?

SPEAKER_00 31:53

I don't see significant differences at national levels because anywhere I go, there's exceptional schools and exceptional teachers. And everywhere I go, there's some schools and teachers who are not yet meeting the needs of all kids. And so I think there's so much variability in general. But I think what other countries, some countries have gotten right is that we have to move away from an over-reliance on standardized testing as the only measure of school quality and student success. It is a measure, certainly, but it's not the only measure. And I think that in the United States, we probably test our kids more than anywhere else in the world and do not necessarily have the same outcomes. Now, there's a lot of confounding variables with that because there's some countries who do not test all of their students as an example, who don't uh embrace the idea of being inclusive, you know, of all learners. But what I would say is people will say, where do you see the best work with Universal Design for Learning? And that might be a scaling question, but I have seen exemplary teachers who will do whatever kids need everywhere in the world. And so it's more about how do we get an entire school or how do we get an entire system to buy into this? So I also think one of the things that is a challenge here in the United States is we're still very, very focused on seat time. And because so much of the contract negotiation goes to teacher salaries, which it should, if we can't give people raises, we make the school day shorter. So we have one of the shortest school days in the world with the most time for testing, right? And we have to cover so many standards. And that's really challenging for teachers. And so I think that one of the things that we definitely need to work on is investing more in educators. Educators in the United States need more time to collaborate, they need more professional development, they need really good, authentic sources of data to say, is this kid excelling? And that goes beyond how they're doing academically, but how are they doing emotionally? What's their attendance look like? Have we talked to these kids? Have we talked to those families? I think that a lot of the international schools will provide a lot more support to their educators and require less of this standardized testing, less of this, you know, we have to use all of these screeners all the time. And there's value in those, certainly. But I think that there's a line that we have crossed in the United States.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Do you think that's, I mean, I love the IB curriculum. Now, the challenge was where I taught it in Virginia, we had to cover the entire US curriculum for a state test. But it did allow us And yes, and and IB. So all of US, but no, the kids were at least bright enough that they could kind of figure it out, like in terms of a state test. But the but we spent eight weeks on the Civil War, like because there was two questions on the IB History of America, our paper three history of America's that it was the only set of question bands that didn't have to deal with another country. So we would say, You're answering these two questions, and then maybe a question on civil rights, maybe a question on the Cold War, depending on what the questions are. But I liked how little the curriculum was for IB, but how rich in depth you went with it because of the historiography. Because it's like, listen, there's eight bullet points in the civil war. There's only so many ways you can ask these questions. But and I honestly, and I'm a history teacher, and I don't care about dates. It taught me to like this. I taught writing, I taught history through writing. I had to become a good writing teacher, um, and the critical thinking and the analysis. And so it was just so much richer. And so I had a glimpse of that abroad when I student taught in Budapest because they were getting kids ready for the the Cambridge and Oxford exams. But I come here and it's like we're just and I've like had conversations with good teachers, teachers that that care, that want their kids to succeed. Like I just have to keep going because if we get to the end of the year and then there's a gap, and then they're gonna come in, they're gonna be in underprepared for AP calculus next year. And it's like, and so like we're the train is leaving the station. If you're on it, great. If not, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:27

I mean, like devastating, it's so devastating. So how do we so when I when I present what I will tell you about like the schools that I present in without a doubt, without a doubt, anywhere I go, 95% of educators will provide incredibly positive feedback about this. This is not a I'm not willing. This is I would love to, and I'm struggling with how this fits in with, right? Right. And so, you know, it's not to say the barriers are teachers, it's just the system in general, you know, is saying we want to prepare kids for their future. We also want to cover all of this. We have a shorter school day, we might not have time for professional development, we might right. It's just there's so much going on. And I believe in teachers and I believe in in schools. And I think that ultimately we have to focus more on if we can teach kids how to learn, they can access almost anything. So it's, you know, we're trying to cover so much where it's like, let me teach it to you. But we look at the data and we know that not everything we're covering is actually resulting in really deep learning. And I think all of us as adults, everyone listening to it, you might, your kids might come home and talk about something, and you're like, Did I ever know that? You did. You did. When you were in chemistry, when you were in algebra, we knew it once. And it's like, gosh, I'm so far away from that now. Right. But it was because so much of our education was like, let me teach it to you for the test, as opposed, let's teach it for deep understanding, let's teach it for transfer, let's teach it for generalizing. And that's, I think, what we really want kids to do when they're learning.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

So I see it as a, you know, when I first heard personalized learning, I'm like, this is virtually impossible. How are you gonna differentiate or how are you gonna personalize an experience for 30 different kids at the same time when I have no time to plan, plus all the other responsibilities, right? But now AI is here, and AI presents a unique opportunity where I'm like, if you, I mean, now again, I have to know stuff because I'm not gonna just take everything it says as word and it does get some stuff wrong. But where we're at now, there's enough power in any of the models to teach you something. If you want, if you have good enough questions and you ask it a correct and you know how to analyze the information, yeah. So, where does AI fit in with you UDL? And are you are you pro it? Are you are you open to it in terms of where it can take us and fix the system?

SPEAKER_00 39:11

So I uh my my most recent book is actually about elevating instructional design through AI. And, you know, I absolutely see an incredible potential for AI. And yes, I would say in the spectrum, I am for it. But I am very, very aware of the dangers of these tools as well. And so when I present about AI, I always show a picture of a hammer and I always say, okay, so this is a tool, right? We all agree this is a tool. Now, here's a picture of a birdhouse my dad made. It's awesome. My dad's a carpenter, right? He's this expert builder. And like my dad made this with a hammer, and it's amazing. And he could never make it as quickly without tools like saws and hammers, right? And now here is my a smash cell phone. And a hammer also did this, right? And it's like, I think we really have to understand, you know, on one side, its ability to pull information, its ability to react, you know, quickly. All of that is incredible with the right prompting with analytical thinking. On the other side, we can't ignore early studies from MIT that says that an overuse of these tools actually erodes parts of the brain that are necessary for critical thinking. Time Magazine has put up that early study. It's not the use of it that erodes it, it's an overuse of it that erodes it. But the World Economic Forum is saying AI is not the most important skill for the future. It's the fastest growing skill. By far the most important skill is analytical thinking. The concerns just environment, plagiarism. You know, as a writer myself, I'm always getting these like claim heroes. Like your textbooks may have been used to train these, right? So I see all of that and still say, yes, this is a tool that students need, and yes, this is a tool that we need if we can continue to leverage that analytical thinking. And if we are able to always critically analyze the results that what we're getting, and what we find is that people who use it too often begin to trust it, and their own ability to critical think is actually impaired. The word they use in the studies is erosion. And so I crazy think that there is this balance of when you look at the World Economic Forum, Jobs for the Future report, there's essentially three baskets of skills, if I will. The first basket is all about learning. It's analytical thinking, critical thinking, lifelong learning, self-awareness, right? It's all about what does it mean to be a learner? And then you have your, of course, AI and digital literacy and tech literacy. Yes, it's going to change our world. But then you have these people skills like mentoring, customer service, perspective building. And those three things are all so important. And we need to take time in classrooms to teach others, to have this relational conversation, right? Having a live tutor is hopefully never going to be replaced by a robot tutor, right? The relationship is what's really important because we can connect and we can mentor and we can teach if we can leverage those tools while we're doing it and we can keep kids curious and get them asking really good questions and get them thinking analytically about the results. Like those three things together are what are going to help our kids in the future.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

What's one thing that keeps you up at night at the state of education?

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Gosh. I mean, I think teachers are working way, way too hard for kids to not have better results. Like, I think it's pretty clear that systems are really good at getting the results that they get. And those results aren't good enough for any of us.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

I love that. That was on our doctoral program. Every system is designed perfectly to get the results that it gets. Yeah. Schools are a part of that. All right. We're gonna wrap it up with I I'm sorry we started a little late. I wish we could spend a little more time. I hope you I hope you uh come back as well. Uh this has been gosh, I'd love to. Um you mind if we're wrapping up with a rut lightning round? I always break my rules in lightning round. I say you can explain. There you go. All right. Okay, right. You're not the typical assistant superintendent out there, are you? The former assistant superintendent. No.

unknown 43:35

No.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

I'm a bull, right? This is Krause. I'm a bull. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

All right.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

No, I'm ready. I'm ready for lightning round.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

All right, here we go. One book that changed how you think about education.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

AI Enhanced Processes by Alec McMillan is how Shanghai American School is using AI as a part of a process that starts with very deep collaboration. Elaboration, critical thinking, analog before the kids go on and actually use the results back to analog to tear those results apart, to compare how if we had the same props, why did we get different outcomes? It is really, really brilliant in moving students from understanding AI to applying AI to create in really ethical, responsible ways. And I actually wrote the forward to it. And I don't even know if he reached out, yeah, he reached out to me and said, like, hey, would you be willing to uh write a forward for a book? And I said, I will read any book, but I'll only write the forward if I think it's worthy of sharing. And loved it. So I can say that with absolutely no connection to this game, but it's exceptional.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

If you could go back and tell yourself one thing at the start of your career, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Gosh. Always take time to eat lunch in the teacher room with your colleagues.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Worst advice you hear parents giving right now.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

I don't think it's advice. I think it's we as parents, I am like the ultimate mama bear. I have a daughter who has some support needs. I have four kids. And I think that so often it is so well-intentioned, and I say this with love. We fight battles for our kids. And I think that it's so hard to say, before I get involved, I really want to set you up to try to address this yourself. And certainly there is always a time that it's appropriate for a parent to step in. But I think that sometimes I have a tendency to try to solve the problems for my kids. And that's something that I'm working on. And I know that a lot of my friends are working on that as well is like, how do we help kids realize like you have a voice, you are capable, advocate for yourself, and then I am here if that doesn't work out.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

And then the most overrated metric in education.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

As it relates to teacher performance, I'm gonna go with proficiency scores. I wish that we looked more closely at growth scores as it relates to the quality of teaching and learning as opposed to performance scores, because a kid comes in with lagging skills and a teacher might bring them up three, four years, and they're exceptional and they deserve a prize. And it's like, well, the student's not at grade level yet. Um, and so I do wish that we held up growth as well as other metrics for student success like well-being and confidence, and weren't only looking at that performance piece.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Could have a whole separate hour on do you think we should tie that to teacher evaluations?

SPEAKER_00 46:44

No, because it's it's too messy. But if it was truly an authentic portfolio growth, right? I think that teachers could be more reflective on it, but I don't think that it's a metric right now that is it's too biased and it's too narrow for certain subjects in certain grades for it to be a valuable metric.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Well, you better buckle up because I have a whole separate story on that. Hey, your bonuses are tied to growth of students. Now we have a formula that we figured out, but we're not gonna tell it to you.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Magic formula.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

These teachers got bonuses this year. Come on down and receive your five to ten thousand dollar check in front of the whole school, school of teachers. Incredible. It was like no one knew the magic. And the dynamic of that uh it was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

I mean, we talked about, you know what, when before you take a test, it's great to know the success criteria, it's great to know how you're gonna be measured. Examples of great work. This is what educators did who are able to, and again, there are some exceptional educators, but like as an English teacher, right? English math and a couple of years in science, we're the only ones who have standardized testing data. So, how do you elevate and celebrate an art teacher or a history teacher if you're not having the same questions?

SPEAKER_01 48:16

It was wild, it was wild. But Dr. Katie, it was a pleasure to meet you and it was an honor to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. For people who want to learn more about you and all the amazing work that you're doing, where can where's the best they can find you?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Uh, Novaceducation.com is my website. It's N-O-V-A-K. And what I will say to any family listening, I I I truly believe this with my whole heart. Your kids will figure out a way to be successful if given some opportunities to explore and try different things. And if you reach out to schools and say, I'm really looking for more flexibility, and but you're hearing like we're not necessarily looking at that yet, I would say reach out to your school boards, certainly, put it on their radar because teachers need more support, more professional learning. And when I work with teachers, truly, people are like, I want kids to be successful. I just help me to figure out how to do that.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

Amazing. Well, again, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure, and we'll see you next time on the Supported Learning Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

All right, have a beautiful night.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

You too. Thanks for joining us on the Supported Learning Podcast. If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker. We'll be back soon with more voices, more insight, and more ways to elevate the future of learning together. Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.