Episode 6 - It All Starts With the Standards (featuring Andri Orphanides)

Upon Further Inspection is pleased to welcome our first podcast guest, Andri Orphanides, API’s Director of ICP. We had such a great conversation with Andri that we split her interview into two parts. 

In Episode 6, Greg, Branden, and Andri discuss her 14-year journey with API from an exam coordinator to a director. Andri shares insights into the evolution of the ICP certification programs, the career pathways they offer, and the importance of international standards. She highlights the growth from 11 to 21 API certification programs and new initiatives like the bolted joint program. The conversation also touches on industry changes, technology integration, and the importance of creating opportunities for veterans and newcomers to the field.

Part 2 "An Education Task Force", is now available wherever you get your podcasts. 

01:10 Journey into API Certification

04:31 Challenges and Growth in the Credentialing World

07:23 API Certification Numbers and Their Significance

09:50 Expanding API Certification Programs

13:40 Global Standards and Future Initiatives

23:57 Career Pathways and Opportunities

30:44 Conclusion and Closing Remarks

++++++++++++

Episode Acronyms & ICP Certifications

API – American Petroleum Institute

Cert - Certification

ICP – Individual Certification Programs

STEM – Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics

1169 – Pipeline Construction Inspector

1184 – Pipeline Facility Construction Inspector

510 – Pressure Vessel Inspector

570 – Piping Inspector

571 – Corrosion and Materials

576 – Inspection of Pressure Relieving Devices

580 – Risk Based Inspection

653 – Aboveground Storage Tank Inspector

936 – Refractory Personnel

982 – Refractory Inspector

Thank you for listening to Upon Further Inspection! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow or subscribe so you don’t miss the next one. 

 We’d love to hear from you—connect with us on LinkedIn and share your thoughts on the episode. Have ideas for future topics or guests? Email us at inspectionpodcast@gmail.com.

Join us next time, wherever you get your podcasts. Until then, stay safe and stay informed.

Note:  The views and opinions expressed by the guest are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the hosts or the Upon Further Inspection podcast. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal or professional advice. Listeners should seek their own qualified advisors for guidance.

Transcript

0:00

Upon further inspection, a Mechanical Integrity podcast goes beyond the data and dives into the people challenges and stories behind reliability and inspection. Whether you're in the field or in the office, this podcast is for you because mechanical integrity isn't about assets. It's about the people who keep them running. This is episode six. It all starts with the standards, and today we are speaking with Andrea, or who's the director of the Individual Certification programs at API

Branden 0:48

so Andri thanks so much for joining us today. we're really excited to, to talk with you and learn as much as we can about some of the, certifications and, and some of the other projects that you have going on. So thanks for joining us.

Andri 1:03

thank you for both, for having me, Greg, Branden I mean, I'm excited to be here, and, you have this discussion with you guys. I was a little concerned with the questionnaire you guys sent me, like, what were you actually gonna ask me? But I'm excited to see where we're gonna go with this.

Branden 1:18

how did you even get into this? I mean, you've been with API for 14 years. How did you even, like, did, did you just hire into the certification program? Did you develop into it? how did that even happen?

Andri 1:28

By luck. Sure luck actually, because, I was, in, I, I kind of was in the policy world, uh, prior to coming to a API worked a lot in international relations. My previous role was at the Woodrow Wilson Center, which I believe may or may not exist anymore, who knows? But we won't get promised. We weren't gonna get into politics, so I won't talk much about that. but, honestly, I was looking for what's my next step? They say, you know, you, you, in a lifetime, you could have five different career pathways. And this to be another way to go. There was, I, I hired into the exam coordinator position and I remember thinking, I never coordinated an exam before my life. Like, what do they want me to do? and I, and I called up Tina Briston, who was the manager of the individual certification program at the time. I was like, should I apply? Like, should I even apply, was my question, because I was like, I don't know if I meet the criteria here and. For whatever reason, she liked my international background and she said, you should apply. And I did. And you know, the rest, the rest is history. I've learned the credentialing world, uh, inside, out, starting at the, starting, not, not quite at the bottom, but sort of towards the bottom. and, you know, went some exam coordinator to a project lead to a manager to director over the last 14 years. I never thought, if you would've told me this when I started that, hey, you know, you'd be on the ISO work group that's looking at the revision of 17 0 24. I'm like, oh, like things. And or I would be on this podcast, to be honest, back when I first started, because I, you know, I was just like, Hey, I'm, I really like what, first of all, API was about, having, I've worked in the policy realm where we talked about issues. For 15 years and nothing ever changed or, or very little changed if, you know, you were looking at whatever, uh, Turkish, Greek relations or whatever it was we were looking at, that didn't change much in, in 13 years that I worked there, it was still the same issues. We just kind of recycled them and tried to give a new spin on them. But when I came to API, I was like, I'm I, I see these people who are so passionate about what they do. They see something that's an issue and, literally within a year or two things could change. They, they try to put some new thing in place. They try to change something, whether it's through the standard or whether it's through a new certification program. It's, it's, it's going forward. You know, we, they, they don't just talk about it and talk about it and talk about something. I know Greg, they do just talk and talk and talk about it, there are so many other areas that I see where. they actually happens. So I I, I typically use the refining meeting that are probably about six months apart, where it's like something could be talked about at this one refining meeting and something's happening by the next refining meeting. Either a new report's being done or some research that has been done or something, and you see movement and change and stuff. So I'll get off my That was, that it was. I, but yeah, I didn't, I didn't know about the credentialing industry, but I also love the fact that I'm working in an area I know is helping people, at the end of the day where helping to keep the industry safe, right. And operational. And we're delivering hopefully a good pool of people who are knowledgeable that the, that s can rely on in, in their daily operations. So that, that, that makes me feel good.

Branden 5:01

and and it's all peer reviewed. Right? And, and it's, and it's, and it's set by the industry, the people in the industry, the ones that are working, right. It's not some policy writer from who knows nothing who's coming in and saying, you shall do. Right. It's, it's people that are actually there and a part of it that are building it so that it, it, it makes it that much more valuable, I think. There it is. There it is. you talked about how, uh, you came in and you kind of just had to figure it out and, you know, do you, were you good at that? Was it difficult that you liked that type of having to just take it and do your own thing? I'm curious'cause uh, our family motto actually is figure it out. So my daughter will come to me and say, how do I do this? And I go figure it out. You gotta try. You have to at least try first before I just give you the answer. and so I feel that that's the way that we operate. And so I, I resonate with coming in, taking a new job, not really knowing if it's a fit and then just trying to work through it. did you, did you like going through that experience? I'm gonna guess it was probably difficult.

Andri 6:08

There were, it was, it was difficult. I've had so much fun. Um, the way I feel like it's almost hasn't been worked. You know, someone smart and probably Rich said, you know, if you find what, if you love what you do, you never really work a day in your life. Right? but I mean, true, there's always office politics. There's, there's always all this no matter where you are. Right. but, and there were challenges along the way. Like I didn't know how to develop a portal where people were gonna come and do an application and what have you, but. I was thrown into and I figured out how to work in an agile environment and what the developers needed. And I worked with, you know, and I, I asked questions and I, I tried to do, I tried to teach myself a little bit. API did help a little bit. After a while they were like, oh, you guys, maybe we should do this, which was great. and, you know, we built this platform and then it was like, okay, what's the next challenge? I like, I love taking on new challenges. I love looking at things and trying to solve, problems. and that, that's, and, and I dunno, here I'm, I guess somebody thought I did a good job and I all of a sudden I'm director. So I, somebody thought something of what I did, which still surprises me a.

Branden 7:22

Perfect. I love it. how do you delineate the difference between the senior and the junior from a certification standpoint? Well, I, I guess, I guess the only thing I wanted to add to that was I have had times where I've had inspectors tell me, like when in talking with them I forget if it was an interview or if I was just talking with the guy and he goes, I have the lowest number in the state of whatever. He goes, I am the first 510 in the state. You can go look it up. I have the lowest number. Right. And so, like, there's people, like that's important to them.

Andri 7:54

badge of honor. I, started at API, I remember like someone coming in with a 3 digit or the two digit numbers because our certifications, you know, inspection, um, 510 somebody's mastermind decided that, okay, you know 510 is is gonna start with 001 and 570 is also gonna start at 001 and 653 when it came on board and 580, every one of them had a 001. and when you're trying to look up somebody's certification and you're, you're like, wait a second, is this their 570? Is this their 510? Because they all have the same number. and do they belong to the same person? Because somebody could have gotten 001 in 510 but have, you know, something else in 570. So they were, they weren't in sequential order. They were just by program and then in in sequential order, all starting at the same point. And somewhere in 2013 I think we were like, this doesn't make any sense so what have so many overlapping and we have so many programs now. we did was we structure. if you had the lower numbers, that's great. But if you didn't, then we just started doing in sequential order. So it didn't matter. The, that cohort of 510s that came in, they got the next set of numbers, that cohort of 570 that came in, they got the next set of numbers. I'm amazed at the fact that when I started API, we had, five digit cert numbers and we're now doing seven and eight digit cert numbers. So the program's grown. Yeah, the program has grown quite a bit and that's where I can also look at when I get, you know, I'm just gonna throw out a number. I don't know who this is, so if somebody's gonna go look it up. I don't know who's number this is when you, when I see something that says something like 075 I'm like, oh wow, they've been around for a while. Like they're part of the original group of people. But when I look at, I'm like, 7, 6, 8, 5, 4, you know, I'm like, okay, this is an older certification. It's got six, seven digits. you know.

Greg 9:50

so Andri, I have two questions for ya.. And you can just use approximates if you don't have those numbers in front of you. How many certified inspectors does API have now in 510. 576, 653 And then if you can speak to those other ones, the 580 um, and, and the other, the, the, 571 is damaged mechanisms the other areas. Can you quote approximately how many people are active right now in their certifications?

Andri 10:25

I can actually, um, I love to go, when people ask me questions like this, I get to do my little, in hey, we've got over 43,000 certified individuals in 131 countries, countries holding over 76 of our certifications. And, and yes, I can actually tell you that in 510 we have, 21,430, 21,437 of them in 570 we have, 19,437 of them. But if anyone's interested in those numbers and really looking at each and every, program. twice a year, I do the statistical reports. Usually for the refining meeting. Everybody's familiar with the refining meeting. I, I present things there and I have a statistical report, which then gets, set on the API.org website the ICP anyone can go in at any time, to, look under ICP and under statistics, and they can find a report there and you can know exactly or at least updated every six months.

Greg 11:25

does API still make that available. I haven't looked at it in a few years, but I remember I Could go on there and there'd be a CVX file. Could easily download to, Excel, right? And it would say

Andri 11:39

Oh, you're talking about, yeah, you're talking about the directory. The, actually, so the online directory, I actually put a statistical report together. it's something that, I didn't start it, it was, it was there and I. Inspector directory, you can go. We did, we did remove the ability to get the, the downloadable and file, because we promised our people that we'll keep their information. We're not gonna share it with third parties. and when you have it open like that, people just download and they start, advertising to inspectors. And a lot of people appreciated that. So we did remove that. But you can still go online. You can find an inspector, you can look in a particular country and see how many inspectors there are in which program. You can still do that. But if you wanna more aggregate, you can go to the statistical, that I put out.

Greg 12:29

amazed at again. I've invested a lot of my life in API since 87, I am really proud of the breadth of acceptance and recognized values industries and other countries, right, all around the world adopting, the API, codes and the recommended practices. I think y'all have done an amazing job there.

Andri 12:58

you know, it all starts with the standards. If we didn't have a good representation around the standards and a good group of people like yourself who work on the standards, then I, I'll just look at it as we're taking those standards and we we're, we're creating a product for that standard to actually be, and I'm not saying they're not utilized, but you know, for another way for those standards to be utilized.

Branden 13:18

I mean, we see it, we see it all the time internationally, you know, in, in the US obviously it makes sense that it's the standard, but internationally, so many times people are like, obviously we're gonna use API as our standard, like we're gonna follow API. So that's, you know, I think that's really cool to, to know that that's how other people value the technical side of everything.

Andri 13:39

Yeah. And API and not that I'm gonna talk about standards because that's not really my realm, but I do work a lot very, very closely with them. So, um, we've started a global standards strategy. We do look and, and see ways in which we can work with other countries so that the standards can be adopted. So again, the standards would be there, and it's not different no matter what country you're in. I know we're missing the API part api, but these are, these are standards that are recognized and adopted worldwide. And so we try to go and create those partnerships in different countries so that, you know, your, your pipe that's gonna be developed in the United States or manufacture in the United States gonna be the same thing if you were getting from you, South Korea, whatever, you know.

Greg 14:37

Yeah, I think it's quite a testament to the, adoption API codes and standards, lead to the value of certification, that line up with those codes and standards. So it's amazing. I mean, and other countries do some good jobs, right? And I mean, Australia has a good set and the EU has theirs and so forth. It just, to me, it's very gratifying to know that the work we've done over the years been appreciated and recognized. By people in other countries.

Andri 15:14

way than try to make those, standards into something that can be utilized in different ways. Whether that's certifying people's knowledge, whether that's certifying companies that, that are manufacturing to a certain code or standard. all different ways in which you can make that even more useful. Right.

Greg 15:35

Yeah. And it's an ongoing continuous improvement process, right? I mean, never stops working on improving the documents and improving ICP program, the inspector certification program. there's constant work that goes on and I think, I think y'all deserve a lot of credit for that.

Andri 15:53

Thank you. our volunteers, because they're our subject matter experts, also deserve a lot of credit for it. but in, but in looking at it, we also like to make sure that, you know, the programs that ICP has, you know, they started, there were incidents in the that were happening in the late eighties. And so a lot of the bulk of the programs, that were 570 I, I always say the numbers and I forget, some people may not really take the number and, and understand what that is, but, so API 570 vessel, a for a piping inspector or API 653 for the aboveground storage tank. and then, you know, we broke off into what we called the specialized, the supplemental. And we tried to grow from there as well. Uh, bulk of the programs are in the downstream because that's ICP of the inception of it came from and it grew up in downstream. But over the years, at least since I've been, again, at API, you know, when I came in there were 11 programs, now we're at 21, soon to be 23 next year when we launched our bolted plant joint program for the inspector and the assembler. So grown quite a bit. We've started branching out into other areas. there's, you know, folks have come to us from and said, you know, pipeline operators that were like, Hey, we need something that will standardize the knowledge and a, and some kind of a credential uh, those who are building the pipeline for new pipeline construction. And so we put out 1169 for new pipeline construction inspector and then followed. Well, you know, as you're building pipelines, obviously you. We had 936 for refractory personnel for so long, and the refractory group came to us and said, you know, we, we really need a good way to do a refractory inspector. And so, and it, each one of these I look at is like, not only are we creating another certification program, but we're also offering an opportunity for career advancement too. So like the refractory is a good, really good example, right? If you go, if you've had your 936 for however long you've been a refractory personnel, well now we've introduced nine two. So if you ever wanted to take your, that career to the next level and become an inspector, there's a pathway there for you. we created the 1169, I remember with the, with. There were different pathways that people could come in to initially get certified. So if you go look at the requirements for 1169, it's not just, you know, if you have a high school degree, it's like you can come in having done pipeline construction, you can come in from heavy industry, you can come in from doing other oil and gas related things if you've done it for so many years and you've got, you know, some of them have, you know, you also need this other cert or what have you. But there, there's like five different pathways for somebody to come in. Somebody who's been working other heavy industry and says, you know, Hey, who's that guy with the hard hat a clipboard? I wanna be that guy There's a pathway for you to get there and build your career and. advance yourself

Greg 19:09

I think would help Andri, I, I bet you, you can do this off the top of your head. Would you mind listing off the various different certifications that API now offers?

Branden 19:19

All 23 of them.

Andri 19:20

Well, there's 21 and so, let, let's see if I can do this from memory five, obviously. 510 for pressure vessel. 570 for piping inspector. 653 for aboveground storage tank 1169. New pipeline construction, 1184. new facility 984 refractory, 571 refractory 577 580. Everybody knows. 580, right? RBI I know, I, I stopped listing out the, and then we have our practical exams. We've got, five different programs there. Acuities we like to call them. Um, our long steam pipeline program there, our thickness measurement program there. What am I up to now?

Branden 20:00

I start, I started trying to find the, uh, the list so that we, I could make sure that if you missed any,

Greg 20:08

some of these are qualification, demonstration testing

Andri 20:11

Yeah, those are, yeah, the practical experience. Yeah, Um, and then the, the two new ones, I don't know if I mentioned all of them. I, oh, our source inspector, how could I forget? Our source inspector. We have our source inspector for fixed equipment, for rotating equipment. for electrical equipment. We have our certified auditors program for Q1 and Q2 if you're in upstream. Um, and then I think, did I get to 21 yet?

Branden 20:33

Okay. did you do, did you say long steam pipeline.

Andri 20:36

under practical exams. yeah. And then, now we're building bolted joints for the inspector, and Assembler. So that'll bring us up to 23 uh, early 2026 to the, I program, towards the end of this year. First we're. And then there are other things we're working on too. One of the things, I noticed over the last year and a half is that our industry has probably gotten a little bit warmer to the new technologies that exist out there, you know, to help with predictive maintenance, to so there's a lot of digital twin going on, a lot of 3D modeling going on. and they're trying to, also trying to see how they can take all of this data that exists and have, uh, be able to analyze it to help in sort of, you know, turnaround times and maintenance, schedules and things like that. And so we put a task group together at what would I like to call my next gen initiative. This is sort of like really an initiative that is near and dear to my heart because, a year ago, a year and a half, I went to my supervisor at the time and I said, you know what? There's office technology that's coming into the industry like. Doesn't need credentials around it. It's sort of just happening. And these job roles are emerging and we've always done these inspect, we've always thought about, you know, like inspector type things, but there's all these other areas. and, and we also see where, you know, with the new generation, the Gen Zs, we don't see a lot of them interested in your 510. Oh, I can talk about that a little bit separately. But there's all these other areas where we can entice these people with their STEM related degrees in engineering, in math, in science and, and bring them over to oil and gas. and so she said, love the idea. Go for it. So I put a task group together. We've been over the last year or so, of Inspectioneering helped us put out our, our survey last year that kind of cast the net wide of, you know, what are people seeing. And we were able to take that, aggregate it, work with the work group and. We had an idea session, back in January. probably gonna do a couple more of those idea sessions so we could build out a roadmap of what are the next if you will, of that we should be looking at and job roles that are emerging that might need some kind of credentialing. and how do we socialize that? We have to go to the right places to socialize that because just because we say this role exists doesn't mean the industry wants somebody wants or needs somebody certified in it. So we have a whole way in which we go and onboard any new program as well. So we're still gonna follow that and make sure that the, their, industry like every, every

Greg 23:22

Andri No, that's okay. That, that's okay. Branden, you know this, and may or may not know this, but I. when API started down this road, some very pivotal times, right? It was probably around the time a gentleman by the name of John Reynolds was the 510 Chair. there was a vision that he and others of us had was. How do we create a career path for people don't necessarily have degrees but are damn good at what they do? And that was a lot of the impetus at, at least from my interpretation or my observation in the beginning. And here we are now, you know, 25 years later,

Branden 24:16

I thought, I thought that 25 seemed a little light.

Greg 24:19

I get to subtract years from my age.

Branden 24:22

I, I literally looked at the date and I was like, that seems a little light, but I'll let it go.

Greg 24:28

87.

Andri 24:29

I think in terms of what, what some of the qualifications we've also changed, just because you wanna look at offering that career opportunity to a lot of different ways. I, I think the, the first effort was really great because it, it's on a sliding scale, especially for 510 576 653. It's a sliding scale between your education, and your, experience in the industry. So, you know, if you, even if you don't graduate high school, there's a pathway for you there, right? You do have to work a little bit longer in the industry, and you do have to get more, a little more knowledgeable. But I mean, that's just the way it goes, right? And then if you've got high school and if you've got an associate's degree, and, and it's the way that I, like I said earlier with the 1169, like there's ways in which you can create these pathways pathways For people to start a career career. and really get good career. some of the, I, I, I hate to say, but some of the times, at least when we talk to people there, these are good six figure incomes. If you work, you're not, it might not start off that way. You probably have to work two, three years to get up to the levels of John Reynolds and yourself to be earning those salaries. But, it's still, it's still a really viable option, to start in. that's my thought anyway. And then we've, we've worked, uh, over the last five or six years as we started our veterans initiative as well. And so we went back and said, well, there should be a pathway here for veterans, right? And so in lieu of the education, you can have so many years of experience as a veteran and be able to meet the criteria as well. And we kind of looked at It, with all of our programs. so if you, anyone that you look at now, there's, there's a pathway for veterans to come in as well.

Branden 26:08

It, it's great that you're looking outside. I think that's awesome because Right. You know, there was, we had the time period where we did have a lot of vets coming back and looking for jobs, and so creating a space for that and now looking forward with the next gen, you know, the industry, the way that we do things in the industry is changing as well too. Right. When, when Greg was talking about. 25, 30 years ago. The idea was let's just go out and like look at things, do our inspections, make sure we've got people who are doing a good job of that and gathering that data. We're now at the next point where we have all the data that those folks have brought in. Now let's put together programs to help those folks to make sure that the folks that are looking at that data, analyzing that data and making decisions with that data are also to a certain level that we feel that, that they should have. It allows people to come from, not just within, but from the tech industries and from, as you said, heavy industries, other places, and be able to come in and not be an outsider. They can come in, they can say, Hey, I have this or this, or this cert, and put that on their resume or work towards it to put it on their resume and be able to be, within our industry Then, so I, I love it. I it's a great idea. I, I have, I have my little kid question. when the certifications first came out, 0 0 1, is that a symbolic person that has 0 0 1, or was it just literally whoever was the first person to click submit?

Andri 27:35

I wanna say it was so symbolic. It was the first person who finished in the quickest time. No, I dunno. Um, was, here's this cohort of people and whoever that lucky person at the top was that got 0 0 1, that's what they got. And the person behind them got 0 0 2 and the person behind them got 0 0 3. And it's funny, to this day, I, there are people are like, Hey, I want you to check and see like, have certain number, I'm not gonna say the name of this person. They always come to me and they're like, I have a cert#10. You check and see if cer one through nine are still active, because that would make me like the who active and do that. Please don't have everyone start calling now and to see anyone below them uh, active. But it's, it's, like I said, it's, it's a

Branden 28:26

Yeah,

Andri 28:27

Like to have like number 7, 6 5, or number 1, 3, 4, you know, whatever. People are very proud of that.

Branden 28:36

they should be. They really should be. I mean, like I said, the story I said earlier where the, the, they have the lowest number in the state, right? Like that's, they're telling every, if they're telling me that, they're telling everybody that. They're very proud of it. Very proud. So.

Andri 28:50

Now say not, not just because I want people to recertify, but if you let your cert. Make top of recertification because I can't guarantee if you're gonna get that, that next, we're at seven and eight digits now. So if you let your cert lapse, you're gonna come in at what that next sequential number

Branden 29:13

Do they get back filled? Do do numbers get backfilled then, or does it just keep going in sequential order?

Andri 29:19

But it just, it just, it just gets

Branden 29:21

It's just a, it is just a, a retired number then. Okay.

Andri 29:24

So if you wanna hold onto that, make sure you meet your recertification.

Branden 29:30

Got it. now with using the term retired number, now I'm thinking of like the with their, or like the chiefs or the different, sports teams with their retired numbers and making a shrine of the whole thing and.

Andri 29:40

I thought at one point, you know, we go back through our database and see, you know, start to find these people with that, you know, those lower numbers and see if they're still active and if they're, can we like, you know, talk to them, interview them,

Branden 29:53

You should

Andri 29:54

like, whatcha doing? What, how, how has, how has life worked out for you By having their cert? I remember when we were working with the refractory group to build the the refractory inspector program. one of the guys that was working with us, who's now in the committee, he's like, yeah, my dad has like, whatever number, like really low. I think it's like two or three or whatever. He's working for me in the, in the shop now. and I was like oh, that's kind of cool actually. he's still

Branden 30:22

yeah, yeah. Now I really want you to go and start. I want, I'm gonna like be pinging you and be like, Hey, so, uh. One through nine. They still around. How do we find them? Yeah, let's get'em on. Let's get'em on the show. Let's get'em on here. Talk to'em. Well Andri thanks so much for taking some time to talk with us. Um. I I, I've, I've learned a ton. I've learned a, an absolute ton. Uh, so thank you. Thank you for taking your time.

Andri 30:48

Yeah,

Branden 30:53

That's the important part. All right, well, thank you So, much. We'll talk to you soon.

30:56

Thank you for joining us for part one of our interview with Andrea or the director of ICP at API. Make sure you listen to part two, an education task force. This episode was co-created by inspection, hearing, and Corr solutions. Our producers are Nick Schmoyer, Jocelyn Christie and Jeremiah Wooten. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal or professional's advice. Listeners should seek their own qualified advisors for guidance. If you enjoyed this episode. Please join us next time wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until then, stay safe and stay informed.