Kelechi Okafor: How to Stop Seeking Approval & Speak Your Mind

Kelechi Okafor talks becoming dangerously confident, not caring what people think and building a life no one can control on The Alpha Girl podcast.

Actor, host of the Say Your Mind podcast, author and public speaker Kelechi Okafor is one of the most outspoken voices in Britain. In this episode we get into what it really takes to own your voice, rebuild your confidence in the face of online hate and refuse to shrink or be "digestible”.

Together we explore the life experiences that shaped Kelechi into becoming the woman she is today, how she handles social media hate, building a children's home in Nigeria and what it means to genuinely live life as un-punishable woman.

This one's for anyone ready to break the chains of external validation and live a life that feels true to them.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

It's been two months since we last dropped an AlphaGo episode, and I've actually missed being on the pod, I've missed being here, and this time we are coming back with straight fire. We are not playing any games. We have brought together some of the most outspoken, unapologetic, successful, and ambitious women to have conversations that I genuinely believe will change how you see yourself and the world around you. Today's guest is one of the few women in society who are speaking their minds unapologetically and simply not giving up. She's an award-winning disruptor, host of the Say Your Mind podcast, and well known for calling out stuff that she just simply doesn't agree with. You can say what you want about her, but what you can't deny is the fact that she says what needs to be said unapologetically. And I'm excited to speak to her today because I think we all can learn a lot from her. So let's get into it. I believe there's a turning point that happens in every woman's life where you just generally stop caring. You stop caring about people's opinions, you stop caring about what people have to say. And I want to know what that turning point was for you because you grew up in Nigeria, you moved to South London when you were around age five. Yes, correct. Yeah. When was that turning point where you started to realize you have a voice and you're gonna speak and you don't care what people say?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

I think it's interesting. I think there are two different things. Uh knowing, realizing that my voice is useful and to you know speak about things, but I don't think I ever stop caring what people have to say. Because I think there are people who don't care, but I think for me to be able to do what I do and do well, I'm always listening to what people are saying. There are the things that while it might irritate me, I still put it to the side. And then there are things that even if it's um a harsh criticism or they could have said it another way, I still, you know, say to myself, okay, I'm gonna take that on board, actually. I'm always saying to my friends and to my listeners that even your nail or your naysayers, they're your soulmates. Because even in the things that some of my naysayers have said, I've actually found value in it. Like, oh, okay, like I still want you to go to hell. But I'm that's really useful what you've said there. Like, I'm I'm gonna take that on board. And I've been able to kind of move things and know where the gaps are in what they think that I'm not sharing. And there are some things that I just hard and fast will not share about my personal life, but then there are other things where I think, yeah, maybe I could be more transparent about that, or maybe I could explain this a little bit more, but it's not all of the time. I think you have to have that balance. I'll be scared of anybody or very kind of cautious of some uh somebody who just said I don't care what people have to say. Really? You know, you there should be some part of you that cares about what people are saying, but whether you internalize that and take that to be all of who you are, I think that's where the problem begins.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

So, how do you filter out what you listen to and what you don't listen to?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

I think it's where it sits in me. And sometimes there might be something that's said that I just think is absolutely ridiculous. Then I think about it some more and I think okay. I think it's an it's you know, it's a case-by-case basis. Um, it depends on what people are talking about, whether there, you know, there could be a smidgen of truth there that you can take. But um, I feel like it's just case by case. Like, does it feel good inside me, or is it something that I think you know what I could be better at? Because I think sometimes our ego comes to the fore straight away and we want to react to something, but you sit down and think about it and you go, well, I guess they had a bit of a point.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I think that's really self-aware. But as you know, you have been quite a visible and vocal person for a very, very long time, and you obviously know there's a downside that comes to that. There's a downside to being an outspoken black woman on on social media, period. Yeah. Do you remember a time when you first realized in your in your career, in your journey of being outspoken that your confidence triggers people and kind of gets them to react and feel some type of way about the things that you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah, I mean, that's been a constant. There used to be a time online, especially on Twitter, where there'd be a group of black men, I will say specifically, because they need to be called out. There was a particular group of them who would say particularly particularly heinous things about black women, specifically dark-skinned black women, that they shouldn't wear red lipstick because they look like burnt toast. Um, they shouldn't do certain things. They would say, or if you want to be, if you like beating women, get yourself a dark-skinned black woman because then the bruises won't show. And this very same person has had an extremely successful podcast with uh two other black men. I mean, they've parted or he's parted ways with them now. He's rebranded, lives in the countryside now, doing his thing. Like, I think it's interesting the men and the people that we allow to rebrand after they've said very, very terrible things about black women specifically. And so these men I would like constantly hold them to account. And I remember a time when it seemed like Twitter or X as it's known now had in like introduced a new function where you could have private groups and have your conversations, and I think they thought that it wasn't visible, like that nobody else could see it. So they were adding each other to this particular community group. And I remember one of the people on there said Kelechi needs to be exterminated, and so does Olonnie. Arguably, two of the most outspoken black British women at that time. We could obviously add Chidera Slumflower to that as well. Um, but arguably two of the most outspoken black women for different reasons, right? And you're saying they should be exterminated. Exterminated is a very specific type of word, right? And I saw that, saw the group, saw who was in it, and I thought, you haven't seen anything yet. And I made a podcast episode, it was called All My Sons on my podcast, Say Your Mind. And I went through them one by one, the ones that I knew of, and I started talking about the things that they thought no one knew about their lives. One guy in particular who looked like he was one of the ones who started that group. And I was, you know, I had to say some things about his personal life, and suddenly there was an uproar, and since that day they all went quiet, and I thought, yeah, that's what needs to be done to you. Don't don't play around. And I love the confidence that it then gave young black women online from then on that these guys shouldn't be able to try them. Like, why are they sitting on the internet trying to make people miserable, especially black women? Why are they trying to make them miserable? So to me, that stood out. I think that particular point stood out to me. I think that was 2020, I want to say 2021. I think it was 2021. I could be wrong, but it needed to be done.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

I feel like with you, the more hate you get, the louder you get. How do you not like for example, people will get a lot of hate and then they will feel like, let me hide away, let me make myself smaller because clearly maybe I'm doing something wrong. How did you manage to like just block out the noise and just be like, no, I'm I'm standing up for myself?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

I don't even for again, I don't even think it's a case of even being louder, it's just being consistent. I'm consistent, I don't have to change volume, I'm just consistent. And I think that it's important to remember that unhappiness begets unhappiness. Unhappy people do unhappy things. So people who are doing that from a very logical perspective, they're not happy people. Who sits online? Who sits anywhere and just starts saying horrific things about other people? It doesn't make sense to me. So I know that these people aren't ones that one could reason with, they're already in hell, they are already miserable. So why would I take criticism or why would I take you know any sort of reality checkpoint from people who their only reality is one of unhappiness? It's pointless. And especially when it comes to Yoruba spirituality, which I you know practice, Ifa, right? And within Yoruba um spirituality, you are told that the earth is a market, uh, it's a marketplace. You go there to sell your wares, and you're told do not be distracted by the noise of the marketplace. We have within that specific cosmology, we have this belief system um or teachings around the fact that we are souls having an earthly experience. We came here to show the talent that is within us. There will be noise in a marketplace. You're moving around the marketplace, people are like, oh, I don't think what you've got is worth anything. Why do I'm not gonna buy it for that price? And da da da da. You don't get distracted by the noise of the marketplace because you are in the marketplace, somebody's gonna buy what you're selling, and not everybody is your customer. So, are you gonna stop selling your wares because five people said they don't like it? No, because the sixth person, it might be right up their street. So if you have something to say, there will exist somebody who wants to hear it. And once you remember that, that not everybody might want to hear it, but there's somebody out there or people out there who want to hear it. You have to remain consistent and it will find your voice will find those people because obviously everything operates at a frequency, right? And only those who are on the frequency can pick up what you're putting down. If they're not on the frequency, all they're gonna pick up is static.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Have you ever had any fear that your outspokenness could limit you from certain opportunities or getting certain things in life?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

I don't have to fear it, it's a reality.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

It happens to me all the time.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

So, again, if something is not on my frequency, what's it got to do with me? You know, people I I had um a TV series role that was pulled by Disney, the execs at Disney. Um, it wasn't even a massive part, but they pulled it because of what I'd been saying online about Palestine. They'd, you know, I went to two auditions, booked the role, all that was left was contract, and then they were taking a couple of days more than usual for the contract, and then they came back and said, no, can't go ahead because some of the things that she's been writing online. That's fine, you've missed out on a great actress, that's your business, right? Got nothing to do with me. I went on to then make um a short film I directed and starred in it, uh, called The Voice Note. I did that like a a little while after. So that and that doesn't deter me. And there are corporations who um have tried to book me. Somebody's gone and um searched me online and said, Oh, I don't like what she says, I wouldn't feel comfortable with her coming through. All right, cool. I'm not coming through. You're still paying my money though, and they still pay. So it's not a fear, it's a reality, it happens. But to me, those aren't my people, right? I just keep doing what I'm doing because for every uh booking I don't get, I get four, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

I love that mindset. You don't have a scarcity mindset. I feel like some people get scared to speak up online because they're like, I could lose everything. Whereas you're actively losing things, but your integrity and what you have to say is much more important. How did you get to that point?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I just think you have to be sharp. You know, you have to be sharp, you have to be willing to pivot, you have to be very mentally agile, right? If I know that the uh likelihood of things being taken from me if I remain only in a particular field is rather high, then I'm going to have to create other things to help myself to mitigate that. So I work for myself. So I understand people who maybe work in corporate or who have some kind of employer, they might not be able to be as outspoken as I am because there's somebody that can fire them. So I always make a joke about the fact that I have no earthly boss, there's nobody that I work for. There's nobody that I work for. So I can say what I want because there's nobody to fire me, right? But I know that other people they have to consider these things and their salaries and and their families and where they live. I, you know, I understand all of that. But you know, I've had my pole dance studio since 2016, so it's almost 10 years since I've been running a pole dance studio. I teach, um, you know, I teach here and there, I do lots of keynote speeches, I write books, and you know, I've got I've got what four book deals under my belt. Um, I'm read tarot and astrology, I make merchandise. To me, if you tell me that you're going to potentially block one gate, I'm going to go and open five other gates, right? You have you have things in place to mitigate any situation where somebody thinks that they can take the piss out of you by stopping a stream of income. So you create other streams of income. You're not if this isn't a thing where you're static, you have to keep moving all of the time. I feel like you're an example of the universe just provides. Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's been times, you know, many times where I doubt. I'm like, oh, you know, maybe I'm gonna run. I've never run out. I've never run out. I could get close to running out, but I've never run out. There's always something, something always comes through in the nick of time because I think that the universe rewards authenticity. People get it twisted and they think that uh the universe rev uh like rewards you uh for being a good person. No, the universe doesn't care, it's impartial. What's goodness for every good person, there's a good person that's done bad things, and for every bad person, there's a bad person that's done good things, right? So they could even unintentionally they've done something good. And I think about somebody like, for instance, Russell Brand, who's got these allegations, so we're not going to speculate particularly on them, but he's got these allegations that are rather heinous, right, against him. Whether he gets away from them, who knows, right? But to me, I've always found him a bit odd. At the same time, I have a client who um uh attended Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, and they told me that one time they bumped into him um outside, you know, outside one of these meetings, and I maybe he recognizes he knows what's going on in there, right? And he just said to them, just keep going, you know, just keep going, you'll be alright. He didn't have to, right? And so this is what I'm saying about the balance of certain things. Whilst objectively one might say that's a horrible person, but that horrible person has still done something that meant that somebody could stay sober. So the reason I bring that up is we can't just focus on this person's very good or this person's very bad. You don't know, but what we can know is authenticity. Are they just doing what they do? This is who they are. Cool. So I think that that's how the universe operates. You show up authentically, that means that consistently, the same energy that you are emitting, just consistently, is one that it can recognize. What it does is it multiplies that, it only gives you, it only mirrors back to you what you put out. Every action they say has an equal and opposite reaction. So whatever you put you put out, you're gonna get back, right? And so, by that metric, by remaining consistent and authentic as I see it, or you know, remaining authentic by being consistent, the universe can recognize that this is what she does. Okay, I'm gonna bring her more of what she does. She likes to speak to people. Let me bring her more people. She needs to be able to keep speaking to people, so she needs to have resources. Let me bring her resources so she can keep doing the thing that she clearly consistently does. Not because I do it and it's good. I could be spreading hate right now. But the fact of the matter is, I'm consistent with it, so I get more people to listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Before you became who you are today, did you always know that like this is the path for me? I cannot like have somebody dictating what I have to say and telling me I can't say this and I can't say that.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I don't know if I've always known that. Um, but I learned pretty quickly. I think even was it year 10 when we do work experience. I remember doing my work experience at a place near Farringdon, and it was like a publisher, uh publishing house that deals with newspapers and magazines. I think I think that was what it was back then. And I just remember being in there thinking, this is boring, and I'd go to the toilets to go and sleep and to have a nap because I just hated it. The idea of being in office, uh, but I'm just I'm I'm good at being in an office. So whilst I was waiting to get acting jobs and things like that, I'd temp as a receptionist and admin and um admin assistant, and they'd frequently ask me to stay. Anywhere that I went to, they'd ask me to stay because they're like, You're so good at this. I know, but I'm not, I don't want to, like, I don't, this isn't what I want to do. I don't want anybody talking to me anyhow, and I don't want that hush that they do when they're the CEO is nearby, like, oh, the CEO's here. That's just a human being. Like, what are you doing? Right? So I think those kind of things shifted uh for me. But I think what I've always known is that I am somebody, right? And I've I don't know what it is, but I would look at my name and be like, that's the name of the famous person. Like there was no, I don't I there used to be this show on Nickelodeon called Taina, and she um the theme tune would say, Um, Taina, Taina, um, I know one day I'm gonna see my name in light. I've always just known that when I look at my name, I'm like, that's the name of a famous person. Or somebody with purpose, somebody who does something great. Whether that name's linked to me, don't know, but that name right there is a worldwide name. Whatever they happen to do to become known, I haven't got a clue. I always thought it would be acting, right? Like I would say all the time, I want to be the first fully black actress to win the Academy Award for Best Actress in a lead role. Life was like, let's go and do something else. But I guess it's transferable skills, right? Because of my background in acting and musical theater, because I went to performing art school, all of those things meant that when it comes to speaking in front of an audience, I have no qualms, I have no issues, you know, we're trained to do it. So I think I thought I was gonna do one thing. Life presented me with something better or different that I could still use the same skills for, and it makes sense. So if I'm randomly talking with people, I can break into song. Um, I think when you are speaking to people, especially about hard subjects, you have to be a good orator, you have to know how to break down what you're saying into sections. What is the beginning, what is the middle, where what is the end? And is there a through line? So when you start with saying something, do you bring that same thing that you said at the top? Do you like do you kind of inter intersperse it when you get to the end? You know, how you speak, do you speak in threes? Because it makes it easier for people to take in what you're saying. Do you add wit, right? So being able to deal with hard subjects by injecting some humour into it all comes from the fact that I've trained in performing arts.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. You know what you said before that we were all born confident. Yeah. The same way you said that you see your name in life. I know a lot of people who have probably thought the same thing. Yeah, but as you grow up and you go through life, society just breaks you and it chips away at your confidence. And that dream of seeing your name in life is slowly eroded, and you no longer it's like that dream is like very far away. So when people see other people dreaming, they're like, How dare you? Because I I once saw my name in lights, and society chipped that away. And you said that there's an issue with us internalizing the labels that have been put on us. Yes. What has your journey to liking yourself, like genuinely liking yourself and retaining your confidence been like?

SPEAKER_01 19:52

It's been a I don't think it's linear, you know, it's definitely not linear that journey. And there'll be for you to like yourself to, you know, if you've been on the path that I've been on, you have to really dislike yourself. And that might not necessarily come from a space of saying mean things about yourself, but it's the actions that you uh like you choose to take. So I have um you know experienced uh child abuse, sexual child abuse, and for years I think that that for somebody who was confident who knew all of the states and capitals you know in Nigeria could reel it off my head before I got here. And I think the education system in this country made me not as smart. But um, that's a story for another day. Um, and having to learn how to speak English in the way that they speak English over here by teaching myself through books and like watching TV shows and stuff, that is what helped me to get to, I guess, where I am. But there was a lot of self-loathing um and shame, I would say, as a result of that um sexual abuse as a child, right? And I didn't speak about it for ages. And I remember looking over my school reports and finding it interesting that the teachers would say, Kalechi's very intelligent, she's very talented, she's really good at acting, she's you know, really good at all of these things and sports, but she can be rather moody, she's very moody. Like, but why didn't anybody bother to say what could be going on? Why is she that way? What could be happening there? So, again, I think it's an um an another access like an aspect of the adultification of black children, specifically black girls, that no it no one goes, oh, what could be happening there? But we're treated as big women from early. That's so so it it wasn't even something that anybody bothered to interrogate. So now that I've built a children's home in Nigeria for children who can't um they don't have any living relatives that they can be safe to live with, right? They live in the children's home, and it has been my mission to make sure that they can just be safe in order to be able to express themselves and hopefully keep their. Their confidence intact before the world tries to snatch it away from them, or they come back to a home that they know that here you are whoever you want to be. I think that that's how like we pay it forward. And those things that I do there help in the building, the rebuilding of my confidence, and help me to like myself. Because I think to myself, hey, for all of the terrible things I've been through, I'm doing all right. Like, I still feel compassion, I still feel empathy, I can still crack jokes. Like, that's pretty decent.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Like, I'll take that. You know what? Also, I want to talk about your children's home that you've built as well. Because I think that is an amazing thing that you've done. And it's one of the many ways I think you use your platform to genuinely help people. What made you start the children's home? My mum, my mum.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

She um I remember I think it was 2019 because I was pregnant at the time, so I think it was early 2019. She'd reached out, she'd called me and she said, Kilichi, I had a vision. I was like, here we go. There's always a vision, there's always a dream. What now? And she's like, I've I dreamt or I had a vision that I'm meant to open an orphanage. I was like, Oh, that's nice for you. Have a great time doing that, I guess. And she's like, Oh, can you help me think of a name and can you help me, you know, with some bits? I said, Yeah, sure. Help you come up with a name, help you come up with your ethos, like help you with your mission statement, get it registered. I'll help you with, you know, trying to sort out the preliminary stages of all of these things. And she was like, Oh, yeah, and can you just like run it and build it? It's like, I knew that was coming. Like, I knew it wouldn't be as simple as just helping you with a name. No, I knew something was coming. So I covered their school fees, their food, their clothing, everything. And next door, I'm trying to, in the same building, I'm trying to sort out a resource center in a library so women in the local area can come through and take part in courses that are done over the internet by people I know. So you said, you know, you mentioned about my platform. Well, I know a lot of incredible people who do amazing things. Can you teach these people what you know so they can use it in their businesses or just use it in their lives? Why not? Right? Um, to me, that is mutual aid. If we have a lot of something, it is our duty, it's our obligation to make sure that we share it out so other people can have access to the same kind of resources as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

And another thing that you're doing with your voice is you're highlighting injustice that's happening, especially to black women. And as of recently, with a lot of black women that have been going missing. I want to ask you why do you feel like you needed to use your platform specifically to highlight these issues?

SPEAKER_01 24:38

I don't even think it was something that was clear to me at first. I just started to notice the pattern. I'm somebody that really likes to look at patterns and how you know people speak and how people move. You know, I'm just very interested in patterns. And I just thought what I need to do is create a database where I can store every instance that this has happened, so then we can then see what pattern is showing up. Is it a particular area? Or um because one of the things I've noticed is that quite a lot of them are Nigerian, which is interesting to me. Um, but there could be other patterns, right? You know, it's not just black women, you know. So for me, I would say just black people, they keep being found.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

How have you dealt with dealt with the mixed responses, especially as of recently? People have been wondering why are you the person to speak for this family? As you said, people are saying, why are you speculating? Why are you the person the family's using as a spokesperson? How have you dealt with these mixed responses to what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

As I deal with everything, you know, drown out you know, the repetitive things. I don't like repeating myself. So whatever you're asking me, I've probably already talked about it, I've already commented, I've already responded to somebody's comment that has the answer there. So go and look at it. That's how I see it whenever they start doing these things. If they scroll, they'll see that somebody's already asked me similar and they can, you know, read that. In terms of the family, I'd spoken with the stepmom who initially presented herself to me as the mother, and I, you know, we had a phone uh phone conversation, and she said, I picked you because of your Nigerian name and what you do for the black community. So because she was the one that reached out initially, and when she reached out, um, she had DM'd me, she was in my comments after my first video about this specific issue, um this specific incident with the three black sisters going missing and being found um in the sea in Brighton. So she'd commented and she'd um DM'd me. I w I saw it, I responded. I said, she said I'm their mother. I said, Oh, really? She was like, Yes, call me. I want to speak confidentially. So she video called me on WhatsApp. And with me, again, patterns, I record everything. So I set up a you know my other phone to record the conversation, and she was saying, you know, it's so sad, you know, nobody can understand the heartache of losing three girls all in all at once, and it's gonna be so hard on everyone, they're not financially robust enough to be able to pay for the funeral of three girls or three women, we keep saying girls, they're in their 30s, but you know, from her perspective. At no point in that call did she actually say that she's their stepmother. So all she kept, you know, I was under the impression that she was their biological mother. So I'd come off the call, and somebody else who had been saying to me that they know the family or they know of the girls, they'd said, Oh no. Um, you know, I messaged them and I said, Hey, somebody's just messaged me saying that you know she's their mother. They said, Not possible. The mum died in 2010. And they sent me the article showing that their mum also went missing and was found in a lake in Birmingham. So that freaked me out. My response, block. Block everybody, because what is going on? Why would you present yourself as their mother and then you're not their mother? But literally the next day, an aunt of theirs, you know, biological aunt reached out to me and sending me the GoFundMe link, um, of which initially there were two, because again, you as you can imagine, with any family that's a bit, I would, you know, I'd say transparently, a bit dysfunctional. Um, you find that sometimes people work at cross purposes with each other, not really communicating. So somebody's run off to go and do this, somebody's the amount of people I speak to who, when they're dealing with a funeral or somebody's passed away, suddenly there's so much drama in the world. Yeah, everyone's so much, yeah. So I wasn't really surprised by this, but obviously it looks suspicious to everybody else because the first image that they actually put out of the women was AI generated. It wasn't AI generated just on the basis of, oh, let's get three separate photos of them and put them all into one picture. It was the fact that the father, the only picture he had of them was when they were pre-teens, and so he then got AI or somebody in the family used AI to age them as to what they would look like now, and then they put out they put out that picture. To me, that alone should tell you about the closeness of the family, that that needed to be done. Not that they're not real, like some very delusional, very dangerous people have been saying online, not that the women weren't real, it's the fact that surely if you are using your thinking brain and you have any ounce of compassion, if a father only has a picture of them from around their teenage years, when somebody says to him, Give me a picture right now, we need to put it out, and he's only got that, what do you think their relationship was like? Right? You're still their next of kin at the end of the day, so you're the one that the police are gonna holler at to say, Hey, this has happened to all three of them. Because if it was one of them, they'd holler at probably the other two, or if it was two of them, they'd holler holler at the other one, but they they're all three gone, so it falls to speaking to him about it. So to me, that was all very clear straight away. I don't need to be up in a family's business to say, ah, okay. Something's going on, something's going on. But it's all very human, cool. Also, in that call, when I was speaking with the stepmum, she had asked me to take groceries or send groceries to the dad. But once I thought everything was a scam, blocked everyone, no groceries were sent, just done. So I unblocked pretty much straight away when I unblocked, he reached out to me, called me, and he said, you know, what happened. And I explained to him, and he was very understanding, just really lovely. And while I was on the phone to him, I ordered him the groceries and the things that he'd actually asked for, and I just sent it to him via delivery so he has some food. Um, because we don't know the financial situation, like the universal life doesn't care about your financial situations when it decides somebody's gonna die or when somebody ends up dying randomly, right? It doesn't know your financial situation, but still you've got to sort it. So sent him the groceries and he said, Could you please call her and have a conversation? She's distraught, people think she's a scammer, you know. The stepmum. I said, But you have to understand, she says she's their mum, right? If she said I'm their mother, if she'd speculate, if she specified that she's their stepmother, that would have made all of this so much easier. Um, but I did give her a call, she was upset. But even with that conversation, I still had to have some boundaries in place. Like you could be upset, but it still falls back on you, right? I can have all of the empathy, all of the things. But if you keep going around saying to people you're their mother, it makes it very challenging. You didn't just say it to me, you know, you said it to other newspapers as well, and that threw all of this made you know creating more speculation. The AI photo was bad enough, and then now on top of that, they don't know many different stories, you don't know who to believe. But this happens when people aren't really well versed at dealing with the media, so the family need to be really, really aware of how they're moving publicly because more speculation being created means that empathy starts to decline. So when people were like, Well, how come you're the only one who's spoken to them? How we don't know that they exist, where their friends and their family, why don't they have any social media? You you don't know whether the girls or the women rather whether they had social media or not. You're you right now that's typing to me, your face isn't you know your profile picture, your name isn't that that you've had you that you've got a username. So if something, God forbid, were to happen to you, how do we find you? People it it open up a larger conversation about how in this modern age we are the you know the metrics of our lives really seems to depend on how visible we are online, and if we're not visible in some way online, then apparently we never existed. And I think that that is extremely problematic, especially since we know how the internet is being used and the data connected to or the data collected from how we use the internet is being used against us. So it's been a kind of tough time trying to navigate this and hold space for a family. And actually, after I clarified on my podcast the way that I've clarified with you now, the you know, the chain of events, suddenly the dad he'd messaged me to say, Oh, he's been taken away by family, so where he was meant to see me the next day that he couldn't see me anymore. Okay, fair enough. I don't believe it, but I can imagine that maybe the stepmum wasn't particularly pleased with how I went about and I clarified everything. I'm not gonna embellish, I'm not gonna ham things up, I'm gonna tell people exactly what is what it is, right? And I maybe that didn't go down too well, but it is what it is. I will never lie, like I will never lie for anybody. This is what happened, this is how it played out. Um, so whilst I'm navigating all of that, you've got black people online, black women, specifically a black woman online, making videos back to back saying that I'm the one behind the GoFundMe. A link that was sent to me. I'm the one behind the gofundme, and the girls never existed, and I'm just trying to steal money. Now, from this of this particular person, I do understand and I know that she had a psychotic break around 2020 and she was dancing naked on Instagram and she was just like mumbling all of these things. I know that that happened, and whilst I've got to hold space for that, what you're doing is very harmful to my reputation, though. And these are these are the things that I have to balance. My care for black women, understanding that they might be going through things, but if what you're doing is harming me, what am I meant to do about that? So it goes beyond, oh, I don't like Kelecci, whatever. What you are saying is harmful. It's slanderous.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

This is what happens when you sometimes when you put yourself at the forefront of these things because this family, as you described, is quite dysfunctional, right? So many different stories are being fed, and nowadays you don't even know what to believe. Nowadays, some of your favorite influences that you connect with are gonna be on the goal for me.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

I always welcome people to question absolutely everything, but when you are doing the questioning, look at the information that is it reputable? Can you trust it? What is the source? Like to be looking at these things. This girl, all she's doing is looking at my videos, reposing, like um making a video of herself, watching my videos, and saying, Look, I just don't believe her because she looked off into the corner when she was talking. Could that not be neurodivergence? I'm not saying it is, but could it? There are so many things people naturally do that when they're collecting their thoughts. She actually does it even in the video where she's talking. So she specifically had to be called out by various people to say what you're doing is extremely slanderous, and we understand that you might have your um mental health issues, but you can't just be doing this and for it to be okay. Three women have actually died, serious and and the reason I'm talking about it is because I've been talking about it, and all that gets me is that I always think like, what were their last few moments like? Were they scared? What, like, what happened? And this is why I named the database Asking the Tides, because only the water knows, only the water knows what happened to each of these people. And Tony Morrison has a quote where she says, All water has a perfect memory and it's only ever trying to get back to itself. All water in on this earth is connected in some way, right? And so the water is passing along the memory and the knowledge of what has happened to all of these people, and we may never know, but at least like let us do what the water is doing and try to remember and try to collate all of this information to see where we can go with it. But going back to what you say, this skepticism, this confusion is by design. So you don't know you can't trust what you're seeing with your eyes. If you're looking at it on the internet, you don't know if it's real. But the only way to get around that and to circumvent that is to go outside. So, really, essentially, this is taking us back into physical community. We've gotten so comfortable over the years with believing that online spaces are the only spaces that community can exist. For some people, they have nobody in their lives but they're superstars online because they've created a whole life for themselves that only exists in 010101 binaries online. Nowhere else can we see their lives. Us not believing or being unsure um whether to believe what we are seeing with our eyes is the point. So that means that the more atrocious things get, you have less and less empathy for it. You become so desensitized that even the most like heinous things that you see happening through your phone screen, you go, Yeah, probably not real. And you move on. Meanwhile, people are dying all around you. That's the exact reason that is being done, and we can't let that get too out of hand. So, absolutely let's question why the hell did you decide to put an AI image together? That's crazy. I said that to the father, he apologized. He was just like, you know, we just wanted to get something together and get something together quickly. But after that, they went with the actual picture that the image had been lifted from, or the AI image had been generated from, which is just him and the three girls, you know, at some, you know, on a day out. They're using that now. Other pictures, why they know other pictures of them? He says, Well, they kept themselves to themselves, and the police have their phones. If when the police give back the phones, we'll probably see pictures on there on there and you can see the pictures, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:29

That's what we got. That's the thing with some of these things, is is a is a lot deeper than what we see to the eye. But I know we've gone over time now, and there's so much I can dig in and talk to you about, but I know we don't have much time. I just want to ask you one final question. If there's one thing you can leave with someone who's listening or or watching this, what is one thing then that you would leave them with?

SPEAKER_01 38:48

That you are a miracle, right? For all of the particles in the universe that come uh to come together, jiggle and jangle to create you, you're a miracle. Move like you understand that. Move through the world like you understand that you are a miracle, that you understand that you are a once-in-a-lifetime event, that you understand that you are the headline to this show. You'll never ever know really the realities that other people are existing in. You only know your reality. You are the lead character in this, you are the miracle. So, everything else that you're seeing in and around you, ask yourself if I am the miracle, why did I call this particular thing forward at this time? What do I want to learn from this particular interaction? What do I want to learn from this particular stage in my life? Probably the thing that you are being reminded of is that you're a miracle. That everything around us is only ever trying to remind us that all of this that we're experiencing is wild and yet it's beautiful, right? And so, if you are a miracle, seeing other miracles be extinguished at the whims of the government or from some oppressive force should drive you to anger, should drive you to action because miracle begets miracle, right? And we must keep all of the miraculous beings that are here at this time. We must make it so that they can see through a life that's filled with dignity.