Improve Your Speaking Skills and Become More Articulate | Amira Mansour

Communication is one of life’s most important skills, yet most of us were never taught it.

Our Alpha Girl this week is Amira Mansour, a Communication Coach & public speaker who specialises in the art of conversating. From how to win any argument to negotiating a pay rise, Amira shares her top tips to becoming an influential speaker and articulate yourself better so you can dominate any room. Take notes.


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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There's a skill that impacts every area of your life, and in today's episode, we are fixing your communication issues. Our guest today is a communication expert who has spent decades teaching people how to use your words to land high-paying jobs and how to influence and command any room you walk into. So let's get into it. So, Mira, welcome to the AlphaGirl podcast. Thank you. This has been a long time.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Got me. We've been talking about doing this for a long time. It's definitely been a few months. You took the words out of my mouth. I was gonna say the same.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

But I also believe everything in good timing. And I'm so happy we're here now. So I'm just gonna go straight into it. You've built your whole career around this one skill of communication.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

And what do you think it is about communication that a certain demographic of people seem to be very big on that the average person doesn't really look into or care about much?

SPEAKER_02 0:54

I think there's maybe three threads that I want to pull out there. One, I almost want to challenge that I do that our amazing, incredible, successful people are all good at it, because I also think we could think of enough examples where powerful people or successful people, however we want to define it, actually aren't the greatest communicators. However, I think the thing we also need to think about is how well you can influence, share your ideas, get your point across, debate, challenge the status quo has a huge impact on how you feel about yourself, the relationships you have, and the results you get. And no matter who you are, where you live in the world, what business or industry you are in, every single one of us, even in a non-verbal way, has to communicate. Probably every single day. And yet it's the one thing the majority of us don't have a playbook for, and so much of it is also intangible, and it's not only the words that we say, it's your tone, your emotion, your pace, your volume, your energy when you walk into a room, and because some of that is so intangible, we perhaps don't attribute the weight that we need to to it. And there's almost like this expectation that we should know, we should know how to argue, we should know how to deal with difficult conversations, we should know what our style is and how to adapt. But why? Because nobody's actually taught us, unless you're really lucky and you've had either really good mentors or perhaps really good programs in a work environment, or you've got role models that you've looked up to and you've had great people around you that are really eloquent and articulate themselves really well. So, unless you sit in that boat, which I'm not saying nobody does, but probably less of us do, then we don't have the example of the role model, and there's also no one way of doing it. Everybody's different. So, how do you find your way of doing it, still be true to you, and have healthy relationships around you?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

You know what? There's a scary part about communication, it's invisible. Like it's one of those things that you can be very bad at communication and it can impact every area of your life, but you would never pinpoint it to maybe I'm just a bad communicator. For people who feel like oh communication isn't that important, yeah, how can poor communication impact like your career, your relationship, the way people see you and how they respect you?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

I think it's such a good question, and also one way I like working because if people are listening thinking, why should I bother? Or this sounds like too much hard work, or oh, and it does, it does take work, and I think that's something I want us to be okay with. If you've never ever thought about your communication, or you've thought about it and you're like, I don't know how to do it differently, but how I'm doing it is not working, then that's enough of a reason for you to actually think this is worth the time and investment. But I always love to start with the question, what is it costing you? And you're so right, it's like this invisible hidden currency that like some people know and some of us don't, and we're trying to figure it out. And I I love when you opened up and it's like Mira, you've built your whole career around this, and I had to really figure it out the hard way, and it took me the best part of over 10 years to really nail it. And I think when I looked at my life at the time, I was like, between family, romantic relationships, and work, I am far from having it figured out, and it was causing problems in every single area. So I think you're so right because rarely do we get the feedback to say, Hey, you actually aren't successful in this interview because the way you are expressed yourself and articulated your ideas was not what we wanted to see, it's not at the level that we need for this role, and so we don't get that feedback, so we're not putting two and two together. And I think sometimes we think things are a confidence issue where actually it's well, how well are you communicating your value, your ideas, whether it's an interview or not? So if we think about what it's costing us, career-wise, easy your promotion, your pay-wise, your interview. Um, so that's definitely like easy ones in terms of careers to just think about straight away. And I've been there, so I spent a really long time in a corporate career, which I loved, gave me a beautiful, beautiful foundation. But I also can pinpoint some real pivotal points where I couldn't speak up for myself. I would fall into the trap of, well, I deserve a pay rise, and I s I stand by the fact I did, but that is not the way to articulate it. A business doesn't care if you deserve it or not. Like, what's your value? What's your benchmark against the industry? So that's definitely like from a work perspective, and I think I really remember those moments so distinctively. I was like, damn, I I don't know how to put my value across. I just feel like it's a feeling I should, I should, I deserve, I've done it for long enough, I've got enough experience. So if you cannot be able to translate your ideas or your value, then you're gonna miss out in that way. If it comes to relationships, and when I say relationships, think about this in a way that's relevant for you. So if you feel like, oh, my friendships are amazing, but my romantic relationships, I really struggle. Okay, well, where's resentment building? Resentment is a great emotion because that is telling you where you are not speaking up, where you probably are being soft with your boundaries if you even have them in place. So really think about in your right relationships, and again, think about family as well. Where are you feeling resentful or unfulfilled or even muted? And I remember I was in a romantic relationship, and it's probably very surprising there was a time where I didn't speak up for what I wanted, because nobody knows that version of me. But I was so deeply unhappy as a result of it, and I just felt if I said anything, I'd rock the boat, and if I rocked the boat, that would have bigger consequences. So, from a relationship point of view, whether it's family, friends, romantic, I think that cost can be hugely emotional. And then, if we also think about the relationship that we have with ourselves and what is it costing us, how much energy, mental capacity are you spending on replaying conversations from overthinking, from walking out of any conversation, even social. I say dinner party, but like let's use a more day-to-day example like any sort of like social meetup, and you're walking away feeling, God, I've got nothing to say, I'm not interested, I'm not valuable enough, and then you replay that, and all that's doing is reaffirming to yourself that I'm not a good communicator, I'm not really good in social settings. So when we look at actually what is it costing us, all of those.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Wow, that is big. I want to start off with career. You said in the past that some of the best CEOs and some of the people in the most highest paying jobs, not all of them got there because they're very good at the job, they got there because they're very good at communicating. And you've also said that if you can't speak well and communicate your value, you can't persuade people. One thing I see happen a lot is that some of the most talented people get overlooked because they believe that their work speaks for itself. How do you go from being somebody who has that mindset to being able to now communicate your value and actually persuade people into seeing that your work is actually amazing and you deserve the high-paying job, you deserve the pay rise.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

You've articulated that question so well. I'm listening to you and I'm like drawn in, and I'm like, wait, I have to answer the question. Um, a really beautiful one. We need to bust the myth that our work is gonna speak for itself because so many of my clients, I'm thinking about my past clients, I'm thinking about my current clients, but Amira, the work is gonna speak for itself. No, it isn't, and why should it? Why should it? And I also like as an extension of that myth, I want us to get into the zone of also understanding that we do not have to be the loudest person in the room in order to articulate our value. But exactly as you said, some of our best talent, most um important work or team members are overlooked and almost invisible because we as individuals aren't taking responsibility for this is what I'm really good at. And I want us to be also like have loads of empathy when I do this because I also coach for a living. I there are so many reasons as to why we don't, whether it's the visibility, whether it's the rejection, and I grew up really hating having to put myself in the spotlight or ask for help. And I was like, Well, what if someone says no? Well, what if someone says no? So what? And so it's also understanding where a lot of our fear comes from. Is it visibility? Is it rejection? Is it you're gonna get something wrong? And especially when we're talking about work and career, there's the stakes are high. So let's just be really honest about the environments that we're in, and especially if we're in a high-performing culture. So, do I want to potentially damage my credibility? Probably not, but then again, come back to what is it costing if I don't, if I don't speak up and share my value, if I don't say, Okay, well, are you willing to lose out on a possible promotion or taking on a new project if you don't know how to articulate your value? So I think actually shifting your mindset is really important. The other thing then is coming back to not being the loudest in the room. So actually, if we can almost, and I say this so rarely, but this is a really important example of it, sometimes we need to take the emotion out of the situation. And I'm all about emotions and feelings, and I sit in it, okay? And I'm very much like acknowledge your feelings, your emotions are signs, they also tell you then how you need to communicate what you need. But in these types of situations, sometimes it's really helpful. Take the emotion out and let's actually focus on the fact. So, when, for example, you're speaking up about your work, it's not that you're not humble, it's not that you're bragging, and lots of us grew up with those beliefs and those thoughts. How many times have you been told just stay humble? You don't brag, and again, this will come down to culture, which I know you and I have started talking about like before we recorded. Um, but British culture for sure, mm-mm, don't brag, make yourself smaller, and then if we want to add a female lens on that, definitely, okay? Because you're seen as too much or too loud. So there's all those fears as well that stop us wanting to actually share our work or speak about it. But take the emotion out of it and actually think factually, what's the value that I'm bringing? What's this piece of work or this project I've been leading on created for the business? Why is it helpful? And I think if we can think about it from a factual point of view and a results-focused point of view, then it will make it a little bit easier when you go into those conversations.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Sometimes it feels like your brain has so many things that it wants to say, but then when it comes time to actually verbalising it, yeah, it's like jumbled. It's not working at the same pace. How do you get to a point where you can articulate what is in your brain, but also kind of slow down and actually say what needs to be said?

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Beautiful question. I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but I think I need to, right? Because I say this on every single podcast whenever you're speaking. So if anybody knows me already, I hope that when I say this, you're like, Yeah, she always says that. Practice. That's the first thing, okay? And I'm gonna break this down. When you say, How do you almost move from like these jumbled thoughts in this social, like, work setting, not being able to feel that you can get one or a few clear points across and then move into this beautiful articulation? Like, how do you do that? Number one is practice, okay? So, why are we expecting ourselves? If that's your default at the moment, and you feel like I've got all these jumbled thoughts, I kind of miss the moment, I never really say what I want to say, and then I feel that the opportunity is past. How are you gonna go from zero to a hundred overnight? You're not, okay? Things take time. So, what are some of the things that we can actually put into place to really help us? And one of the things that I think perhaps is underused and we don't do enough is prep. So I know if we're like we're listening and pay people are gonna say, but I can't prep for everything. You don't, you're not gonna prep for every single conversation, you're not always gonna know every type of conversation that you want to have or every meeting you're gonna be in. It's a really unfair expectation for you to expect that you don't do this at the moment. You've got so many thoughts in your head, they tend to come out jumbled, and then you think one day, because I told you to practice, you're gonna wake up and you're gonna walk into those meetings and you're gonna be able to figure out what it is you want to say in the moment with the pressure, with all those beliefs already running in your head, being like, You're not that interesting, you don't really have value, don't brag too much, be humble, and you're gonna be able to think on the spot. Well, somebody said to me recently in a workshop, and they're in a really creative industry, so like loads of designs, loads of brainstorming, and they were like, But I feel like everyone's ideas are like very big and creative and loud, and then everyone said what I wanted to say, and I said, Okay, again, instead of feeling like oh, I'm just I don't want to repeat what's been said, then build on what somebody's already said. So if they've shared an idea that you were gonna say and you've already had, build on it. I really like that idea. I was thinking along the same lines. Can I add something to that? Look at where you're adding your value without taking over the room, without feeling like you've got to be the loudest, but also a lot of that comes from prepping first.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Sorry, I'm taking mental note, like make sure you remember this because this is actually some real advice that you're giving. Like, I never I don't know why we never think to prep, even subtle prep, like let me write a line about what I could say. Because you you think in a moment you're just gonna say it, and the way you broke that down, it's actually crazy. Like, why do I think I'm gonna be able to just say everything in in this meeting without even doing some prep? Yeah, so I want to present some scenarios to you. Let's do it. Kind of similar to what we discussed, but I want to get your opinion on what a good communicator would do in this scenario. Okay. So you've got a new job, right? Yeah, they've offered you a salary, but you deep down in your heart, you're like, ah, I deserve more, I want to ask for more. What is the best communication skill to use to articulate your value in that moment so you can get the pay rise that you want? Really nice.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Few things here. I'm gonna do almost what you can do before the conversation. So we want to anticipate it happening, and then what can we actually say when we're in it? So the first thing is if you got to that stage of interview, I would like to have an expectation that you already thought about what salary you want. Okay, you'd already have that in your mind, or at least like a range and a benchmark. Then I almost want you to have the expectation to negotiate. It shouldn't come as a surprise. So what if they've given you a lower offer? And I'm gonna sidetrack for one second. I love negotiating, but I'm also half Egyptian, so I grew up spending my summers in Egypt. So I learnt to negotiate in the most authentic way.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Sorry, because it's so both Egyptians. You guys know how to negotiate.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Thank you, right? I honestly truly believe it is the inbuilt skill of us, like culturally, but I really learnt the skill as a kid in the Egyptian markets because you are expected to haggle, and so I think one, you've already given me this beautiful description of like this is a job I really want, like, this is something I I am like really excited about. So also go into your interviews, expecting to negotiate, not all the time, but your employees also have a budget, employers, so they also want to stick within a certain range. You're also going in with your own expectation. So look at it through the lens of like this is fun, let's see where we can meet, all right? And the goal of like a healthy negotiation is that both sides can walk away feeling like okay, we both feel good about this. That is really your ideal negotiation kind of environment, right? So, when they present the offer, two things think about if it's something you need to address in the moment, or if you've got like if you find it difficult to think on the spot, and you can do this in an interview and have this conversation, I'd say, Thank you so much. I appreciate the offer. I'd love to have 24 hours to review this. Can we then follow up tomorrow? So that's always a good point. See if you're in the position where you can buy that time, because it will give your brain time to think, or prep before so that if the conversation comes up, you know what you're gonna say. Then, in terms of how we're gonna say it, please don't say, Well, I feel like I deserve more. There's kind of almost three elements I want you to talk about. First of all, thank them for the offer. Starting with gratitude is really underestimated. Acknowledge what they've said, first of all, because they've also put time and effort into that, right? So let's not dismiss it, let's not go straight straight into well, this is my figure, okay? So thank them and acknowledge it. Then, secondly, signpost what you're about to say. Signposting is such a helpful, useful skill because what it signals to the other person is I'm about to tell you what I'm about to tell you, and it gives their brain time to catch up. So you're gonna say to them, What I had in mind was something slightly different. So you're you haven't landed your figure yet, but they're like, Oh, okay, it almost preps both of you that we're gonna negotiate. And then to add kind of like the final piece on it, I would almost do it from three elements. So, what was your expectation? Sometimes it's helpful to give a range. So the figure I had in mind was between this range and this range. This is also based on current market value, so it also shows that you've done your research. Um, my experience that I'm bringing to the table, and the value of XYZ. So you're doing it from three different elements, and not once have you said, I feel I deserve, or this is what it should be. And then, and you can also keep it high-level at that point and just land the point. The only other thing I'll say before I actually take a breath is when you do that, pause. If you can, don't speak for the next 10 seconds. Why? Because in any negotiation, if we're going in to negotiate and we don't feel confident, we'll over speak. And often what happens in that situation, if you leave enough of a pause, the other side will answer, and they will use you more often than not, give you what you want, or you'll get there a lot quicker. But if you overfill that gap and that silence, one, they've got no time to think about it, and two, you're almost going to shoot yourself in the foot. So give yourself that pause and they will answer before you.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Wow, that is a com it's a real communication. Sorry, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

It's uncomfortable, but you need to be able to learn how to hold that pause.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

So silence in a way can be used as a form of communication.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

One of the most powerful techniques, and you're so right, there's an unhealthy side of it. So if you're on the receiving end of silent treatment, I find that incredibly difficult to to really deal with, and it's I don't enjoy being. I don't think anyone's gonna enjoy it, but I find it really actually quite difficult and triggering. Um, but in terms of this way, yeah, silence is great. We don't use it enough, we don't listen enough, and we don't use a silence or reports enough either.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Like breathe, create space to breathe. Your brain needs to think, and so does theirs. And don't give them the whole case study and every reason why you think you deserve the negoti uh sorry, deserve the new salary. Like position it first, then let it land.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Okay, you are another scenario, you are in a meeting, right? And everybody is speaking, everybody's sharing their ideas, and you're trying to wait for the perfect moment. And I feel like this particularly happens on like Zoom calls or like virtual calls, for example, where everybody is speaking and you don't know when to interject. You wait for the right moment, but the conversation we've already moved on. What would a good communicator do in that instance?

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah, I love that. Um two things I'm pausing because it also does uh differ slightly whether you're gonna be on a Zoom or in person. Okay. So one thing I do want to say just generally about communicating, you have to work harder if you're not face-to-face. Okay, but ideally, we need three congruent parts working together in order for our communication to land, regardless of where we are, what type of relationship. That's your words, your non-verbal, so your body language, facial expressions, hand movements, gestures, and then your tone, pitch, pace, volume. Okay, as soon as we go into a video call scenario, I always say hierarchical, it's the next best thing if we can't be face to face. And if we're working in global teams, then nobody has the luxury of being in the same office all the time. But just remember you're only seeing that top half of somebody online, so you lose a lot of like the way a message can land because you don't have that luxury. So that's my first thing to bear in mind, okay. If it's a zoom one, I would actually offer a suggestion and be like, think about where you can use the chat. So if you feel like it's just so like so loud, so busy, the pace of the conversation is so fast, drop it into the chat, and even again the signposts say guys. There's also one other thing I would love to add on that, and that's it. Because then someone's gonna see it, and hopefully, whoever's leading the meeting's like, okay, over to you. If we're doing it in person, um I also want us to get comfortable with being able to interrupt.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

But you know what's sorry, I I I wanna jump in there.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Tell me, tell me.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Because this is a classic example of me interrupting you, but We've been taught not to interrupt people. We've been taught that it's quite rude to interrupt people. So now we have to unlearn this, right? We have to get comfortable with interrupting.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

So this is a really, really good challenge that you've brought up. And I'm going to give a live example actually because I was at an event recently. I think this is a really good example. Because I felt it, and bear in mind, I do this for a living. So I was like, mmm, how am I going to play this? So there's two things here that you said that are really important. Generally speaking, we want to listen and we don't do it enough as human beings. However, the way you frame that scenario to me is I'm imagining somebody in that situation who more often than not is walking out of meetings not sharing their idea. Okay? So that means your piece of work is you need to focus more on being able to at least one share one idea in a meeting. Okay. So if, for example, the conversation has gone on for a little while and you're like, I'm still not sharing my idea, and you know if you don't interject, the conversation's gonna go somewhere else, and this is actually a valuable, helpful point, and also you practicing where you want to use your voice and like also part of your personal brand and your reputation, then you're going to have to interrupt. Okay. Again, this doesn't mean don't listen, it doesn't mean interrupt five times throughout that one call, that one meeting, and again, think about being mindful in the way that you do it. So it isn't, oh, um, one, you don't do it in a nervous way. Oh, I I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say, well, don't, because if you're gonna interrupt, let's do this with a little bit of confidence and assertiveness, but then also frame it in a way. I'm trying to not repeat something I've said, I want to give a different example. Um, that's a great idea. So you're affirming what they've said. I've also got another perspective that I think will add to the way we're looking at this. So you're not interrupting to be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, but I also think this you're acknowledging that I'd love to jump in here. There's another perspective I think it's gonna really add to the way we're talking about this. And so I was at an event recently, and more often than not, I fall into coach mode because my job day to day is listening, right? I can't do my job if I don't listen. And I also don't have a problem speaking up, okay. Not these days, maybe 10 years ago, fine, okay. Um, but the conversation had loads of bubbly people in it, and everyone was like it was such an incredible conversation and environment. But even in that moment, I noticed myself listening more than I was contributing, and sometimes that's also okay, all right. So I also need you to think about the context of the meet in this situation. Do you need to contribute in every single meeting? And only you can judge that because you know the context of it. Is it also damaging your personal brand? Do your managers or your leaders or your peers feel that you've got nothing to say? Like, do you actually have a lot to contribute and you're not showcasing that? So the context of it matters as well. But my point on that is what I did in that situation is I let it go for a while and I really like absorbed and took it in, and then I was like, actually, I've got a couple of things here that are a little bit different, and I'd love to add that perspective. And so I said it, and I used the technique where I built on something that somebody already said, so I said I r really like that perspective. From my experience, I've also looked at it through this lens, and that's where I've noticed it helps clients the most.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Another way communication gets overlooked is in conflict. A lot of people run away from conflict, they think conflict is negative, and if you're somebody who, as you describe yourself, you know you're not afraid to call out things and speak up.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

How do we have healthy conflict? And is there an art to arguing?

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Beautiful question. Question I want to ask you first of all, then, because I think this is quite helpful. It'll be interesting to see what you say. When I say the word conflict, imagine we weren't in this situation, okay? When I say the word conflict, what's the first word that comes to your mind? Aggression. Okay, mine used to be arguments. I've just done this exercise way too many times to be able to do it. Okay. Whenever I'm leading any sort of program workshop and we get onto this piece of it, I will always get everyone to literally flip chart, like whiteboards, write down the first word, and let's go around and see what the room says. Nine times out of ten, the word is negative. So so many of us have grown up with the word conflict meaning bad, wrong, shouldn't do it, arguments, aggression. I've had war written down before, intense um anxiety, gives me the ick. Like the words are absolutely endless. Okay, so everyone listening, that's the first thing I want you to think about. What is the word you associate with conflict? And then the second piece you said that's so important is how do we move to healthy conflict? And I'm a really, really big advocate of this. You are not supposed to go through life without healthy conflict. Otherwise, where would we be changing challenging ideas? Where would we be changing the way things are? Where would we be presenting an idea and allowing the iterations of it? So, my first thing is we have to shift the way that we look at it and we have to shift our expectation. I want you to almost understand and know that every friendship, every work environment or team, every romantic relationship, every family relationship is going to go through healthy conflict. And someone recently, as a new client, said to me, they were talking about a friendship, and they said, No, we never argue. And I was like, That's my red flag, first of all, okay? Because yes, healthy conflict does not actually mean that we need to argue, but what we need to learn and understand, and I'll break this down a little bit more, is it's okay to disagree, it's okay to have different perspectives, it's okay to not always see eye to eye, but how we do it is really important. And I think the second layer of this, which I will pause after this, and you can tell me what you want to ask next, is so many of us let a situation escalate to something it doesn't need to be before we're willing to address it. And if we understood that conflict actually isn't bad and it happens a lot earlier than you think, so for me, I had to really learn as soon as I start overthinking something, I'm in that state. And I always say with communication, there's only two states. There's your state when things are going really well, and there's your state when things aren't going well, aka conflict. But because we see conflict as fighting, war, arguments, tension, stress, we then put it into this category where we want to avoid it. Whereas how can you build trust in any relationship if you're not willing to have the hard conversations, if you're not willing to have a disagreement and not see eye to eye all the time. So my first thing is we need to address it a lot sooner than we are, and on top of that, we also need to understand our own almost like blueprint of how we move through it and our emotions and our threat response as well.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

My thing about conflict though is one, a lot of us have not been exposed to healthy conflict. Yeah, two, healthy conflict is emotional, tensions are high, yes, and as you said, you're in this situation with someone where I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me, and it's getting tense. Yeah, it's getting heated. How do we deal in those moments where emotions are high, it's it's tense, yeah, and we are not being able to see eye to eye.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

I'm gonna talk through two things here. So, one, I need you listening to to see if you can identify what happens when you get into tense situations. So this is where your stress response will kick in. Your brain has detected a threat, alarm bells are going off, and it's like, hell, like this is where your almost like default programming will kick in. And I'll give myself as an example, okay? So are you gonna fight? Are you gonna flee the situation? Are you gonna freeze? There's a foreign response on flop as well, okay. My default programming for XYZ reasons was to fight. Terrible, okay? Very South London. I live in a former life. I'm recovered now. But I had to work so hard at reprogramming that, but also not everybody has the same response as me. So some people will completely shut down because it doesn't feel safe. So as soon as any sort of tension or conflict, it's like, nope, it's not safe. That's it, shut down. And either that's where silent treatment can really kick in. Because it's like, nope, I don't want to say anything, I don't want to speak, it's not safe to do so. Some people will will freeze, which again could look similar as to not saying anything, um, but also could feel like a real physical response, like I can't get out of the situation, like and they'll just sit. Um, and also your flight response is like, get me out, like you'll do anything to get out of the situation situation really quickly. So, in these moments when tension is mounting and building, first of all, you need to understand how do you default when that threat is that threat or that alarm bell is going off in your head. That's the first thing. So for me as a fighter, I would stay in the conversation and I'd get a lot louder and probably a lot a lot more defensive. Very mean, very mean. And I'm really pleased to say that after 10 or 15 years of work, which now I teach it so that you can do it a lot quicker than I had to, um, that's not my default, okay? And I had to really understand why and where does that come from. So if we're in the situation, whether you are like me or whether you have a different response, it doesn't matter. But the point is, if things have got really tense and feel unsafe for both people involved, it doesn't matter whether you shut down or you freeze or you want to flee and get out or you want to fight and stay, it's unhealthy for everybody at that stage. It is highly unlikely, almost I'm gonna say impossible for you to think you're gonna resolve anything in that situation because you got too far down that emotional state to be able to come back from it. Your brain is staying in threat response. So, more than anything, what I would say as a general principle is remove yourself from the situation. Now, don't just walk out, don't just shut down, and this is gonna be super hard for my people who sit on that side of like the threat response, is signpost it and say, Look, I don't think either of us are achieving much out of this conversation. Let's take a time out and let's come back to it this afternoon, or let's sleep on it, we'll come back to it tomorrow. It's really difficult if you don't know how to regulate your emotions normally, then you doing it in the moment when that threat response is kicked off is not gonna happen unless you've trained it. So, my biggest piece of advice is pause the conversation, go and regulate your emotions, bring that tension down, and then we can think about how do we actually have a constructive conversation.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Okay, one thing I want to touch on is that you've mentioned about silent treatment a lot, and when you say walking away from the situation, some people use that as a way, like they walk away, and because this the situation is so triggering, they never re-approach the situation again. Yeah, so then this silent happens, and I'm so I hate silent treatment. Yeah, like I it's very, very triggering. Yeah, why is silent treatment so dangerous?

SPEAKER_02 33:15

So, a big thing is if you feel that silent treatment is something you often do at some point in your life, and maybe like there's lots of situations, you have learned that it's safer for you not to say anything, or you also don't know how to actually voice what is bothering you. Because usually I'd say the person giving silent treatment is the one that's unhappy about something, but they're not telling you. So the person on the receiving end is like second guessing, questioning what have I done wrong, should I have done X differently? But for that person who is essentially shutting down, they don't know what to say, they don't know how to communicate what's wrong or how they're feeling, and it's as I said, safer for them to almost like retreat and do nothing, which is then silent treatment. So that's almost like where it can stem from and where it can come from. And I think the other thing that you said that's really important, and I'm thinking about past clients I had who were a couple, and one of them would really want to stay in the conflict when it was happening to resolve it, and the other person was like, I'm done. So it was the silent treatment, no. And the other thing you said, which was really important, is how do we not let the silent treatment continue and fester, and then it means nothing's getting resolved. So you almost want to try and find that middle ground, neither of you is gonna be massively okay with it, and neither of you are gonna feel really comfortable, but that's part of resolving conflict. So, where's your boundary around it? It needs time and space to breathe, but you both need to agree, and this goes for a work situation or romantic or friends. Is what's the agreement when we're coming back to it? Because you're right, if you don't set that, somebody that gives silent treatment and doesn't know how to share their ideas or what's bothered them is gonna probably let it slide. So take time and step away from it, but also put a boundary around it. So let's come back to this conversation tomorrow. But in that time, also set the expectation. I want both of us to think about what is uncomfortable for us here, what are we both unhappy about, and what would we like to do differently as a result? Don't just take the time and not actually do the work, which I know is a big ask and I know it's a lot of work, but important.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

I now want to present some scenarios because you mentioned about like couples and dating, and I think communication shows up a lot when you're dating and you're like in a relationship with someone. Yeah, so scenario one your partner's done something that really annoys you, and you're in a situation where you can't really address it. What would be the best communication tactic to use in that moment? Okay, nice.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

So, one thing I want to clarify the part where they're not able to say it, is this because you're in like a public setting?

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yeah, it's like a public setting, or you just want like time and place. It's not the right thing. It's not the time and place the time and place for us to address this.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Okay, so this brings up a really important point that we haven't touched on yet that we also need to add in. Timing of when you communicate in general is very important. So even thinking about when you approach your boss for a payment, like that's important. And you and I'm I'm not saying let's strive for the perfect moment that doesn't exist, but if you know, for example, it's end of tax year, I've got really financial background, so I was like, sorry guys, I'm using that as an example. Um, but it's end of tax year, and like that's the deadlines, and everybody's working longer hours and you're up against it, and you know you've got a cut-off. Probably bringing up a big conversation is not helpful at that time. So if we take it back to romantic, um, I think it's a good call to know is this the right time or place to have a difficult conversation? And most definitely in public, it's not, right? So it's okay. Now, as a I have a general rule around this, and again, massively depends. Are you conflict avoidant? Are you the person that wants to resolve it straight away? Generally speaking, if it's a hard conversation or you're trying to resolve a conversation with your partner, generally speaking, I want you to have the conversation within five to seven days, like within a week, okay? Because after that, it's almost like you've missed the moment, it's almost like you can't get into the nitty-gritty of it because you're expecting both of you to go back to that point, you're gonna remember it differently, or the likelihood is far more increased, far higher, that you're gonna remember it differently, and it's less likely to be constructive. So you want to try and have the conversation when it's fresh. Um, again, if you, for example, are dealing with your partner who also is on the avoidance side and doesn't enjoy this, maybe give them a signp and a heads up that you want to have the conversation. So, hey, this happened yesterday. I'm not feeling great about this at all. I want us to talk about it. Can we put some time in tomorrow? Can we go for lunch and talk about it then? So, like your timing, your environment, and your place is well, place and environment are similar things, but environment is really important for difficult conversations as well. And trying to resolve something, try and do it in a situation where you feel comfortable and it feels a little bit more casual because it will also bring your emotions down, it'll feel less heightened, um, and lends itself to being a little bit more constructive.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

You mentioned something that just triggered something in my brain: attachment styles, avoidant, anxiously attached. Do you think someone who is an avoidant can be in a relationship or be able to communicate well with somebody who is anxiously attached and they they like to address things immediately because they're a bit worried and you're like a bit more and a bit more avoidant?

SPEAKER_02 38:52

My short answer is yes, for sure. However, the caveat to that is both of you need to be doing the work, like both of you, and I always say I talk about my husband a lot because we have different communication styles, we have very different working styles, which we won't talk about today, and we also have very different ways that historically we've grown up around conflict and how we both deal with it, and so we naturally work on this all the time, it would be really surprising if we didn't. Um, but we've really had to work on when we're in that conflict zone for each of us, how his default is really different to mine, and where do we meet in that middle ground? So I'm never gonna be delusional and say it doesn't take work, it massively does, but you're in the relationship, and I'm gonna guess you want to stay in it, so it's gonna be one of the points that you're gonna have to both learn and work through, and it requires both of you adapting. So and and sometimes that might the the give might be slightly different in different situations, and that's okay as well.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

And when we talk about influencing people, we talk a lot about you said in the past that like the way you communicate is largely it can largely impact how you can influence people, how you can command a room. Yeah, how do you go from being someone who it does it feels like they don't really command a room and can't really influence people to becoming a very influential person? Because we see it where when we look at politicians and people in power, they use their communication skills to influence people and the masses.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

So, two things here. I'm also gonna say I'm gonna say one thing now and then I'm gonna look at my phone for the second piece. Um, okay, first thing when we communicate, we massively think about ourselves. If you want to be able to influence the people around you in any type of situation, you need to start putting way more emphasis on them. What do they need? How did they like to communicate? And that is really what fundamentally helps you be more persuasive. So, example, let's use my husband here. Great example. I use him many times. I know that what he really values in any type of conversation is time and space to think things through, and that's because he's really logical. I value fast-paced solutions and getting things done. So sometimes his slower pace of deciding things really drives me mad. Um, however, if I'm trying to be persuasive with him and influence him, which is different to manipulation, but we can just touch on afterwards, then I know I need to give him time and space to also think it through. So usually I will position something and put it on the table, I'll explain my reasons why, and then I give him time to think about it. In the meantime, I go and do all the other things that I need to do and tick off because that's how I work. Um, and then in his own time, he'll come to his own conclusion, which usually is well because we have really similar ways of thinking. I know that we usually pretty aligned and we'll come out with the same conclusion, but the my approach is very different to his, but we're still gonna get to the same result. So, in terms of being able to influence, and even if we need to take the example I've used and think about it at work or think about it in family and friends, you need to really get out of your own head and stop thinking about how you want to communicate. Second piece, in terms of commanding a room, I'm gonna give you framework. I want to go through four C's in terms of how do you command a room, and this is actually one of my key like signature pieces I do with so many teams. I hate the phrase, oh let's learn some presentation skills, because it's not commanding a room means you can read that room, you know how you're gonna step into that room, and it really is irrelevant whether you're on stage or not. It's how do you actually lead that room, the energy you show up with. And yes, I'm not saying that you leading a room of 10 people is different to you leading a stage of a thousand. Yes, you're gonna adapt, but the principles are really the same, and it's not actually about the number of people. Um, so first thing is clarity, and again, comes back to even one of your earlier thoughts. Are we clear on our point? What are we trying to say? Most of us try and cram too many things in, and I also I would still say this is my guilty thing, especially as well if I'm working with a team, uh, we've got like a long-term program. I want them to know everything. That's not helpful for their brains. So, what's the one or two key things I really need them to walk away with? And then, even more so if I've only got an hour keynote talk. The shorter the time I have, the actually the more I have to really pinpoint this. My clarity is one of the most important things. Are they clear that when they walk out of that room, there's one thing that they can know, do, or behave differently? Then I'm like, great. So that's your first thing.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Okay, so one clarity.

SPEAKER_02 43:24

Yep. Okay. Second thing, conviction. So I feel like we've actually weaved this in so beautifully today. When that comes down to your assertiveness, your tone, how are you sure of what you're saying? And again, there's loads of different ways you can do conviction. So, yes, we could add conviction in with um stats or data or evidence. Also, stories are a really good way of convict like carrying your conviction because it also speaks to your credibility and your experience, but your tone here is so important. I actually was at a work event recently and we got the train home with somebody, and I just met them and they said, Um, you really Like you speak with gravitas.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

And I was like, oh you do. I'm not gonna you do.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Well I was like, Thank you, I'm gonna take that compliment. But it was so beautiful to hear that fed back to me. And I've sometimes obviously take it for granted how much work I've done in order to be able to get to this space, but it's also such a beautiful thing to have played back. So that's really what I mean with conviction. Um, curiosity, we haven't actually touched on this today. Something I think we don't utilise enough is asking questions. So even when you're walking in and commanding a room, and I do this a lot, it doesn't actually matter the size of the audience. I will ask questions if it's a big audience and they don't want to talk, then I'll use it as a rhetorical question. So you don't have to answer me, but you need to think about it. And I also use like that pause there. So I'm gonna ask you the question, and usually, more often than not, someone's gonna give me their answer, and then that opens up the room as well. So when you're commanding a room, again, apply this to the context of what type of room are you in, but like be curious, please don't walk in thinking that you know it all. And I think the beautiful thing is actually like we could all learn from each other, and I know, like, typically speaking, in work environments, it's can be hierarchical. But actually, I was leading a team actually yesterday, and we were talking about generational gap and like the difference between Gen Z and Millennials, and it was actually applying curiosity because how can you learn from each other? Because you're both seeing the world through two different lenses, and no, you're not always gonna see eye to eye, and yes, you're gonna frustrate each other, but if we can come from a curious lens, that's gonna be really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Okay, so so we started off with clarity, clarity, conviction, yep, curiosity, yeah, and those are the three C's. So, fourth one, consistency. Consistency.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

So if you're thinking about commanding your room as well, like your consistent message as well. What's the the one thing you're trying to land? But be consistent in who you are, what you stand for. Our brains really do well with repetition. So when you're commanding a room as well, it's again your consistency in who you are, the way that you show up. I remember one of my early clients said to me, and it was a one-to-one coaching client, and they said to me, they'd met me in a corporate environment. So I was training their team, we'd worked together for several months, and then they decided to work with me after that. And they we were working on them finding their voice. Again, they're not shy, they're not, but it's actually like, how do they command that room? How do they hold that space? And they said to me, Amira, I've seen you in a team setting, like a corporate setting. I've seen you one-to-one as my coach, I listen to your podcast, and every single time, even though the platform is different, I know exactly who you are and what I'm getting. And so, this piece around being consistent is who are you, what do you stand for? When you walk into any room, what is it about you that people are gonna remember or know? And you and I know sometimes that question can feel really big because you feel like, oh, there's nothing special about me, but there is because you're the only person that can be you, so actually own that.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Now I want to give advice because we we've spoken about a lot, and if someone's listening to this and they're like, I've just realized I'm actually not good at communicating. Yeah, what are five things they can do to take themselves from being a bad communicator to a good communicator? Love this.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Okay, before anything, this is my fundamental. Let's do an audit, okay? Because there's no point me chucking general principles at you if you don't know where your gaps are. So let's do an audit. What I love to say is you've got to this stage of your life without ever knowing me or hearing me. Okay, so that means there's things that you're already really exceptionally good at. So I now need you to think about where do I communicate well, in what situations and why. Why do I feel really confident in this space or with these types of people or in this environment? What is it about the way that I communicate that works in those environments? Then do it for the reverse. Where in your life are you struggling? And usually you can pinpoint one and start with one. Then once you open that up, it will open up other areas. Um, that's my first thing. Let's start with an audit, okay? Because if we don't know where the gaps are, then we don't know what we're trying to change or shift. And I like to not be general about communication. It's broad and it's big, and there's so many parts of it. There are parts of it that you already excel and do so well. You don't need my help with that. So now let's focus on the other side. Where are your gaps? Where is it holding you back? And what is it costing you? Second thing, probably the thing that will be written on my tombstone. Your self-talk is one of the most important things. If you don't learn how to communicate to yourself in a helpful, kindful, compassionate way, no matter what you do in life, you're gonna go through with that inner voice that is going to berate you over time, that's gonna compound. So, especially as high achievers, that inner voice can be mean, it can be a bully. And so, I want you to really focus on what is the way that I speak to myself, what are some of those beliefs or limits that are holding me back, and how can I choose to reframe them, rewire them. The beautiful thing, even when it feels hard, even when you're in the depth of like really difficult work, we actually get to reprogram our brains, and that is a superpower. So, yes, it's hard, but you get to rewire it, you get to do it differently. So you've got the power to do it. So, self-talk, incredibly important.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Okay, so that's number two, self-talk.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Okay, third thing. I would say know what your communication style is, and then figure out the people that are in your life how they like to communicate. So, again, are you direct solutions focused? Are you more detailed oriented? Are you quite expressive and very visionary, or are you a little bit more focused on people and relationships and how people feel? No, and again, some people are a mix, I will say that as well. Okay, it's not like black and white, but then more importantly, is figure out the people around you. You don't need to go and give them a quiz to fill in. You can, um, but just start to tune in to listen. What do they need? Do they take more time to think? Are they quite fast-paced and like focused on the end goal? Are they really expressive with their ideas? I'm working with one leader at the moment, and I love working with him because he's huge vision and he gets me excited. So think about as well the people around you. How do they make you feel? Because that will be your clues and your signs. And the reason I say you focus on that as well is because the hardest thing is adapting, and I don't want you to adapt and lose yourself, and that's the art of influence, it's the art of knowing when am I still being authentic and can adapt to get the best out of that room. That's my third thing. Fourth thing, it's so funny because I could probably give you a list of 10, and I'm like, no, Amira, boil it down, right? We're keeping it succinct. Okay, fourth thing is stop focusing on just your words. I don't think we give the non-verbal enough. Your tone, your energy, your empathy, your presence, your facial expressions, your hand gestures, how you stand, how you sit. All of that tells somebody how you feel about yourself, how you feel about the negotiation, how you feel about the interview, how you feel about the job before you even say anything. So again, it doesn't need to be perfect, all right? Sometimes we also overjudge body language, which we need to not do. Um, but don't just focus on what you're saying, focus on how you are giving that message and making that land through everything of your entire being. And lastly, let's stop avoiding conflict and let's learn and lean into having what I call healthy conflict, which means yes, having difficult conversations and let's also stop expecting them to be fun. Like it's okay if they always feel uncomfortable, that feeling will shrink over time. But if you're not doing it, then you're not giving yourself the opportunity to learn.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Wow, thank you. You just dropped so many gems. If anyone is listening to this, you need to take out a notepad and pen, and you need to write down everything because this was amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you for being an incredible host.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

I had so much fun.