The Myth of The "Dream Job", Figuring out Your Life & Failure | Zing Tsjeng

This week’s Alpha Girl is Zing Tsjeng. Zing Tsjeng was Editor-in-Chief of VICE when it went from a $5.7 billion to bankruptcy. In this episode she'll be sharing how she managed to navigate industry collapse, separate identity from job title and learn to adapt in uncertain times. 

We also talk about the reality of building a multi-hyphenate career, mindset shifts around success and life and what she'd do differently if she had to start over tomorrow.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

What does it mean to actually build a dream career on your own terms? Our guest today is Zing Sing, former editor-in-chief of Vice, British Vogue contributor, co-host of the BBC's Good Bad Billionaire podcast, and one of the few women who were actively shaping digital media behind the scenes. She'll be talking about how she managed to build a multi-hyphenite creative career on her own terms. So, Zing, welcome to the AlphaGirl podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited because I feel like we have so much to explore. And before we get into your career, I want to know a lot more about who you are. And I want to start off with your name. So earlier this year, I saw that you posted a carousel post on Instagram where you broke down the meaning of your name. And when I saw that, I was like, I relate to that so much. But what was the story behind that?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Well, I saw all these people on Instagram posting introduction posts. It suddenly, I think there was a time when it became quite trendy, right? And everyone was posting these uh image carousels of hey, this is who I am, this is what I do. And I was like, Well, maybe I should reintroduce myself to my audience, but what do I want them to know? And the thing that people always ask or they get wrong is how to pronounce my last name. So I just turned that into an idea for a carousel and incorporated lots about who I am and what I do as a journalist and broadcaster in it. Because I can't tell you the number of times that people, you can always tell. People kind of are about to start talking to me or interviewing me, then there's a kind of catch, and they're like, wait, how do I pronounce your name? And it's just Xing Sing. Um, I will also accept Zing Sing. In fact, sometimes it's easier to tell people that the name rhymes, so to get it into their head. But essentially it's a kind of non-traditional last name for someone of Chinese descent in the UK. And that's mainly because my dad was raised in Indonesia for a bit of his life, and his family, even though they're originally from China, moved to Indonesia and their last name was phoneticised by the Dutch. And if you know anything about Dutch, there's a lot of letters that they just don't pronounce, like T, like J's, like S's. So that is basically why my name has been spelt in a non-traditional way to how you might spell it in the UK.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Yeah, I can relate to that as someone with a non-traditional name as well. Have you had to constantly get people to pronounce your name correctly throughout your career?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

It's getting a lot better now, but at the start, oh yeah, definitely. And I used to be much more relaxed about people getting it wrong, and then I just got annoyed, you know, especially when you're having people introduce you or, you know, reference you or introduce you to other people in person. You can kind of see the last minute panic in their vo in their eyes or hear it in their voice when they realize they actually don't know how to say it. So that's why I put it out on Instagram and I was like, guys, this is just how you say it. Here's a literal video of me saying it, so you can always refer to it.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Yeah, I love that. I think we need to be protective of our cultural names, but I want to explore your journey to becoming who you are today. And I've always wanted to know were you one of those young people that always knew what they wanted to do?

SPEAKER_00 3:12

No, never. Um, actually at university, I thought I was gonna go into advertising. And in my last year of uni, I applied to so many advertising grad schemes and just never got anywhere. Um, this was also the kind of financial crisis, like the after-effects of the 2008 financial crisis were still very much with my cohort when we graduated a few years later. So the jobs were just really thin on the ground, and I thought, okay, what can I actually do that I'm not getting anywhere in my chosen career path? So I decided to go back to university and study journalism at a master's level, and this kind of impression that, you know, maybe when I graduate it will, the economy will be better, I'll be able to find a job in media. Um, before that, I genuinely enjoyed writing. I was on my student newspaper, but I almost didn't really take it seriously as a career path. I think because when I was a kid, I loved writing so much, it just never occurred to me that you could become a professional writer. And then when I did my journalism degree, I was like, oh wow, yeah, you could actually make this into a career.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

And I feel like from that moment you kind of just like flew. You were like news editor at Days prior to becoming editor-in-chief at Vice. So you were at two media outlets that had a lot of cultural influence at the time. What was it like being in a room and shaping the decisions?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

I think it was just such a fascinating time to be entering media because, and this is gonna be seem like ancient history, but some of my first jobs in the media, people weren't really taking the internet very seriously as a place where you could publish content. So, in my very, very first job, I was online editor at Wonderland magazine, and I was just given the Instagram account. Like they were like, we don't care about the Instagram, we just care about what's going on in the magazine, you can just post whatever. So I was literally just given the password and just told to post from Fashion Week, post on Twitter, post whatever I wanted, no oversight, nothing. Thank God I was relatively responsible with someone in my early 20s because it could have gone so wrong for them. But that was the kind of mindset people had. Like people were still very much married to traditional print media as being the be-or and endor. And now that really couldn't be further from the reality right now. So that was why I think I was given quite a lot of responsibility in digital spaces quite early on, because the traditional gatekeepers didn't really think it was as important or was going to be as important as it turned out to become.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

And you've said before that you feel like you earned your respect, especially being in the room. Do you feel like being one of the first women of your kind to be in this position of power, do you feel like you had something to prove?

SPEAKER_00 5:49

I don't think so, you know, and I never really feel like I have something to prove. Not because I think I'm already there, but because I think if I personally grapple with how huge something can be, like what a big opportunity something can be, I will just become paralyzed by uncertainty. And so what I do is I tend to just kind of almost go within myself and just focus on the things that need to be done. So rather than sit back and go, oh my God, this is amazing, what a huge opportunity, this is so uh great that they've approached me. I'm gonna be working with all these people, I just get really, really sensible and practical about things. It's like, who do I need to email tomorrow? How do I need to prepare for this? What do I need to do tonight to make sure that I'm on form tomorrow? Because if my if my if I start sort of grappling with how big something can be or what a big responsibility it is, I will just be overcome by doubt and paralysis. And maybe that just says more about me, but I feel like a lot of people can relate, and that's the only way I've managed to kind of overcome doing some things that on hindsight are just quite big.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah, on the paralysis thing, that's a real thing. Have you ever experienced analysis paralysis where you have so many decisions to make, you're not sure what direction to go down, so you kind of just feel paralyzed and you're like, I'm not sure what to do.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, there was one moment in my career where I had accepted a job leaving dazed, um, as editor-in-chief of Combini UK, which was at the time setting up. So Cambini is a big French entertainment company. It's like the BuzzFeed of France, basically. And they were setting up a UK office for the very first time, and they had hunted me to set it up. And I was only a few months into that job when Vice came and approached me.

unknown 7:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

So I had a real moment of do I jump or do I stay? And I really didn't know what to do. Yeah. It was real analysis paralysis, I can tell you that, because I also felt so guilty, right? Because I'd accepted this job, I'd started working with the team, um, and then to suddenly leave and join another company, which is arguably a rival, felt I felt really bad about it. I felt really guilty. So I had to sit with it, and this is the funny thing. I just thought to myself, I just need to go to Vice, I just need to go to the bigger outlet where I could have more room to grow.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

How do you know when something is the right decision to make?

SPEAKER_00 8:19

That's interesting. I don't think you ever know that a decision is the right decision to make. I think you understand it through the absence of doubt. Like if you don't stay up at night wondering about the what if, what if this had happened, what if I'd gone somewhere else, you know, that's how you know that you've made the right decision. If you are just kind of naturally, okay, I've got to do this, I'm settling in, I'm focusing on my energy, and you're not spending that energy second-guessing your previous decisions, I think that's when you know. So it's almost like you don't really know it until you're looking out for it, you know. But when you are feeling doubt, when you are feeling like, oh, I should have done something else, that will be very obvious to you. I think that will keep you up at night.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Have you ever struggled to separate who you are from what you do?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

No, actually, and I think that kind of surprises a lot of people. Um, but I've always had this mentality where you don't live to work, you work to live. So I have an amazing friendship group, you know, I have a great social life, I try and be with my people, my loved ones, as much as I can. Um I will not very often talk about it on socials or anything like that, because I like keeping it slightly separate and private, because you know, it allows you to be more present in in the room with people when you do. And I just always feel like there's a bit of a tension sometimes where it's amazing that, you know, you can boss your career, you can be really successful, but I fundamentally don't believe it should come at the expense of your own personal happiness, your own personal relationships, because at the end of the day, it should all feed into each other. One shouldn't take precedence over the other. And I think a lot of the reason why people, especially women, experience burnout in their career is because one has just tipped the balance too far in favor of one or the other.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

That's actually a true, true statement. How do you establish true balance?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

I think it's hard. I think it's always a kind of competing war of interests. But I know when I've kind of tipped the balance too far. It's when, you know, I look at my calendar and I just feel overwhelmed instead of excited, or I realize I'm counting down the days to a holiday, even though, you know, it's something that I've planned ages and ages in advance, you know. I think you will kind of feel in your body when you are just overworked and exhausted, and that is when you need to kind of step back and think, okay, let's balance this out. You know, what can I stay, what can I say no to? What can I save my energy on? I feel like, especially women, we're expected to ace everything. Like we put such a high burden of perfection on ourself, and at the end of the day, the world is essentially, I mean, just look at politics, right? It's being run by people who are not giving it 100%. Let's be real. And if we don't, if we don't see, let me think about how do I phrase this? If some of the people in the highest positions of authority are clearly giving it less than 100% and are taking it in quite an unserious way, why are we putting the burden on ourselves to do something 100%, you know, and or 110% and burn ourselves out trying to be perfect? It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

I 100% agree with you. I think that there needs to be a separation between our identity and what we do. And I also think that there's no need to be feeling like you need to go so hard in one particular area because I think sometimes when you want success, you can be guilty of just going so hard in this area and neglecting other areas. And separating your identity from what you do comes in handy during times of failure, for example, or when things break down. So, you know, during your time at Vice, you were there for six years and then the company completely collapsed. How did you manage to pick yourself up from the company's failure?

SPEAKER_00 12:32

I think I always had quite a separate identity from Vice. Um, and I think consciously or not, I cultivated that because I was doing a lot of freelance on the side of my job. I was doing things for myself to build my own kind of personal brand and career. And so I think when that happened, I was like, okay, you know, this sucks. It's awful for me and my team, it's awful for the people I work with, but at the end of the day, we're gonna be fine because we are not this company. And I think from the get-go, I've always had this mentality where you are not your company, your company is not you. You are engaged in a business and financial transaction for labor in exchange for money. And yeah, you know, you can have fun with your colleagues, you can have fun at the company, that's great. Work is meant to be fun, ideally, but it's not you, you know? And I think that trying to kind of hold companies to the same account and responsibility as you do your friends or your loved ones, expecting them to treat you with like the same kindness and thoughtfulness as you do your partner, I think that's just like a bad deal. And so when everything kind of fell apart, I was like, okay, this is something that's happened in my career. It's something that I can get over. I know ultimately I'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Do you think media outlets like Vice shutting down, because it's just one of the one of many magazines that I've shut down, do you think is a part of this wider shift where iconic magazines are no longer as influential as they once were?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

I think a lot of readers and consumers still have a lot of fondness for these brands. So when I tell people I used to work at Vice, people are still like, oh my god, wow. They'll even name specific things or videos or articles that they've consumed over the years. But I think what has happened is the wider media ecosystem has completely changed. So the way that these publications made money has been completely upended by the tech industry. So, you know, it's so way back, you know, in the kind of devil wears Prada one days, right? You would have entire magazines being paid for by advertising. So that was big contracts, big brands spending lots of money to appear on these platforms in these magazines. And now with the rise of Google and Meta, you don't really need to be paying magazines for exposure anymore. You just need to be on those tech platforms. And I think that has really, really screwed the publishing industry. And to date, you know, these tech companies haven't been held responsible because they don't consider themselves publishers or competitors in the same way that, you know, a publishing competitor to Vice or any other magazine will consider themselves a competitor. The tech industry just sees itself as completely separate. So they're able to hold their hands up and be like, oh, we kind of tanked your industry. That's not our problem. That we weren't intending to like take all this advertising money, that's on you. So I think the tech industry has a lot of responsibility to bear for some of these iconic editorial brands really struggling.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Do you see any of the editorial brands being able to revive themselves now? Or is it too late?

SPEAKER_00 15:51

I think there is a still I think there still is a future for editorial. And I think probably even more so with the rise of AI, because all our feeds are just completely taken over by just algorithmic slop, like AI-generated fruit cartoons and nonsense memes and cart, you know, none of this stuff, maybe some people do watch it continuously, but none of this stuff is particularly edifying to the culture or to our brains. And so I think that in a paradoxical way, editorial brands have a really strong voice. They don't need to be in magazines necessarily, but anybody with a strong point of view or perspective will actually really start seeing results because they are so unique and so different to the kind of slot being pushed out right now. The real question is: will we be able to regulate these tech industries and platforms so that it prioritizes original thinking and content over the kind of nonsense that's now kind of flooding our feeds?

SPEAKER_01 16:56

For people who are trying to break into media now, what do you think they should be focusing on since the times are changing drastically?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

I think just I think they need to be developing transferable skills. So, you know, I am also a visiting lecturer at City University, so I teach in the journalism faculty, and what they've done since I graduated from there many years ago is they've made people do podcasts, they've made people do social video, they've made people do not just writing, but also kind of thinking about how do you approach social media, and I think that's what you need. You need to basically be building a portfolio of skills so that yeah, you might be getting into journalism because you love writing, but you know, you could just as easily have the skills to become an audio producer, producing podcasts and scripting podcasts because you have that writing skill, but you also know how to work in the audio world. So I think for any young person getting into the media now, I would just get as much experience as possible in as many different types of media. I know it kind of sucks that you can no longer be the kind of, I don't know, like Carrie Bradshaw sitting at her little laptop typing away, and that's the only thing she does. But a modern-day Carrie Bradshaw, you know, she's got to be on her phone, she's got to be posting, taking photos, taking UGC, writing, filing, editing her own copy, maybe starting her own Substack, appearing in social videos, like you need all those skills to be able to thrive, I think. And it's terrible that you can no longer make a living completely just on writing. But I think if you want to survive in the 21st century as someone in media, you're just gonna have to have many, many skills across different industries.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

How do you feel about having to adapt? Because a lot of traditional journalists or people in traditional fields, they feel like what we have to do now is a lot. You have to, as you said, you have to have a subset, you have to put yourself out there, potentially create a podcast, do video content. A lot of people are like, I can't, I don't want to adapt. How have you adapted?

SPEAKER_00 18:53

I think I've been really selective about the stuff that I do do, and I'm trying to be more selective in the years to come as well. You know, like what are the things that I'm good at? What are the things that I enjoy? What are the things that I think will be really useful for my career going forward? Um, and also just be led by interest. Like, there's no point in posting TikToks if you fundamentally hate being on TikTok and you hate watching TikTok. That is just a recipe for failure because you're just gonna get bored and leave the platform. So it's kind of the same thing. It's like you just need to figure out what did you what you enjoy and what you're good at because the combination of those things is the sweet spot where you will keep producing things, you will keep being interested in creating content for that. There's no point in forcing yourself to be on LinkedIn if you don't like being on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

You've done a lot of things since Leave and Vice, and I think you made a lot of new memories and experienced so many amazing things. One of which has been recently flying to Atlanta to interview Millie Bobby Brown for British Vogue. What was that experience like?

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Oh my god, it was great. And it was the first ever overseas reporting trip I did for Vogue, which felt really special. Um, I mean, it was just a whirlwind. It was basically almost I want to say like 48 hours of in and out um hanging out with Melly Bobby Brown, um, going to her favourite coffee shop, talking to her about her life, watching her interact with her friends, like the baristas, like people walking past. I mean, it was kind of a dream job, also because I'd never been to Atlanta before. Um, and those are the kind of things where you're doing and you're like, oh wow, this is pretty special, actually, being able to do this. I would not have thought I would be doing this all those years ago when I first started doing journalism or even studying for my journalism degree.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Do you have those I can't believe this is my job moments a lot?

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Yeah, definitely. I had one last week because I was approached to be an Iweiwei's art piece. So I was editor in residence of uh Factory International, which runs Aviva Studios in Manchester. Uh I was the editor-in-chief of Factory International's um editorial platform, and I was asked to commission writers on the various themes to do with the shows that they were running that summer, which included Aiwei's big retrospective of his artwork. And then I just get an email saying, Oh, would you like to be part of the artwork? He's doing a recreation of his prison sentence in jail. Uh, he's gonna live in a cell for 24 hours and we're looking for people to interrogate him. And since you're a journalist, would you like to do it?

unknown 21:31

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Honestly, I could not believe it was happening. And like when I said earlier that if I start thinking about how big something is, I will just become completely paralyzed. I just went into full admin mode. I was like, when what am I gonna wear? What questions am I gonna ask? Who am I gonna invite on the day? You know, what kind of how will I like walk on stage? Like that was a real kind of pinch me moment. And it was only afterwards where I was like, Like, okay, wow, that was pretty insane. That was pretty big.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

How do you deal with having those moments that make you feel like wow, I can't believe this is my job, but also remembering that you've worked so hard to get there. Do you ever have the kind of you have a battle between those two minds?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

I almost never feel like I've worked hard to get somewhere. I don't know if that seems crazy, but I always feel like, okay, I've done the best I can. I'm here now. What do I do with that situation? Um, I don't know, maybe it says more about me, but I find it very hard to pat myself on the back.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

I understand. Yeah, I think a lot of people do.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Yeah, yeah, because I'm always looking at the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Um and if and you know, my therapist says I need to take stock all the time. Um but I think it has to do with this always constantly moving forward mentality where I'm a bit like, you know, keep looking at the future, keep looking at the future. Um and maybe I'll take stock when I'm old.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Are you someone who reflects on the past a lot? Like, do you look back and remember things, or are you just you're more so focused on where you're going and where you are now?

SPEAKER_00 23:09

I'm definitely way more focused on where I'm going and where I'm at now. And maybe that's the reason why, you know, when me and my entire team got made redundant from Vice, I didn't dwell on it. You know, I was just like, okay, well, I'm gonna be out of a job. Who do I need to start having coffees with? Who do I need to start emailing? You know, I'm very much that kind of proactive kind of person. Um, so yeah, when stuff like, you know, being an Iowa's art show happens, it's almost like I go straight into the kind of producer mode where I'm like, okay, how is this gonna work out in practice? Rather than sitting back and going, Whoa, that was pretty big.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

You've also covered some really interesting stories. And one recent one I read was when you sp you wrote an article for Vogue about where are all the eligible men, and you spoke about coming out of a 13-year relationship into the dating world. What has that experience been like for you?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Pretty crazy, actually. And maybe it wasn't the best idea to start writing about it simultaneously. Um but you'll be surprised at how some men move mad when they know you're writing about dating.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Oh, wait, do you tell them?

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Yeah, well, I when I was reporting that Vogue story, I went to all these events and I was like telling people about writing it for Vogue, but also my personal situation. You know, sometimes you get asked out for drinks and things like that. Um, I mean, I personally don't tend to write about myself very often, but I'm very picky about how and where and why I do it. Like it always has to be in service for a bigger feature, for a bigger topic. And I think I was able to bring a personal angle to that story, but also it helped people, I think, open up to me. And it gave me a deeper insight into the actual story itself. So I'm not the kind of person who ever writes about themselves for the sake of writing about themselves. I always want to be able to tie it into something bigger happening in society.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

So, where do you think the state of dating is now after doing your like investigation and your piece on the street?

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Oh my god, it's in the trenches, obviously. Um I think what I find really interesting right now from a journalistic perspective is there's so much mistrust between straight men and straight women, or I should say like men who date women and women who date men. Um because I think part of it is the internet has really kind of pushed those groups apart. So if you go on a bad date, you can be watching these like TikToks about people saying that men are trash or women are trash or whatever. It really like feeds into this adversarial mentality, which is kind of funny because if you have that mentality on a date, I don't know how where it's gonna take you, you know. Um but at the same time, I think it's reflective of a lot of people's exhaustion and frustration with the modern dating landscape. And I don't really think the apps have helped. I definitely think nowadays dating apps are very aware that they are in the discourse for ruining dating, as some people think they have.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

I also love how raw and authentic your stories are. How do you pull out that emotion and still make your work very relatable?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

I think I think even though it appears it's really raw, these are things that I've been talking about or thinking about privately for quite some time. So I've almost refined the way that I feel about them. So I'm able to approach it not just from the perspective of someone who's going through it, but also someone who's thought quite critically about it. And I hope that comes across in my writing that it's not just like my diary entries. Because if you read my diary entries, oh my god, you would be like, This girl needs help. Um by the time it's come to writing it professionally, I will have like processed quite a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

You've managed to build a career on your own terms, and I will class you as a multi-hyphener. You've done so many different things that feed into your interests. What advice would you give to people who have so many different interests but can't, I don't feel like they want to stick to one traditional pathway?

SPEAKER_00 27:13

I think you don't have to stick to one traditional pathway anymore. Um, because also I think this ties into the entire idea that a job for life no longer exists. Like, I don't think you can be at one company for the entirety of your life and be there forever. I don't think, I think those jobs no longer are around. Like, certainly not for like my generation or your generation. I think so. I think that being able to try things out, whether or not you fail or succeed at them, is also really important because it's almost like you're defining the parameters of your career. You know, you're like, okay, I wasn't so good at that, but I'm not interested in getting good at that because I didn't enjoy it. I can just cross that out. Or I really enjoy doing that. I'm not the best at it, but I feel like I've got the motivation to pursue it and become better. That's definitely something I'm gonna keep in my wheelhouse. So I think, you know, there's a real tendency to kind of want to smash it straight out of the gate and be like, okay, I'm gonna be amazing at this, and that's all I'm gonna focus on, and I'm gonna tie my life to this one particular company. I don't think that really exists anymore. I think because life is long, you want to be able to be trying stuff out. You don't want to go onto your deathbed and think, oh my God, I wish I tried to write a novel, or like, I wish I tried to do a podcast. Like, just do those things anyway, because life is so long nowadays. You don't want to go to your grave with regrets. And who knows, you might end up being really good at these things. Like, I didn't realize that so much of my career now would be about broadcasting, about public speaking. And I literally only got into that because at my first job at Dazed, someone didn't want to do a live stage interview with someone, and they said, Oh, can you just do it? And I was like, Oh, I've never done anything like this before. I don't even know if I'd like it. And I did it and I loved it. And that was how I got into public speaking. So I think always be trying new stuff if you feel afraid, but you're drawn to it, like that's a really good indicator that you should be doing this, that you should be pushing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

And what would you say to people who are looking at the current job climate right now and where media is going or like creative roles are going? What advice would you give to them? Because it's kind of scary out here.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah, I know it is scary, and I really feel for people. I think it's such a destabilizing landscape right now, but I also think that there are lots of people who are doing things on their own terms. So, for instance, Amelia de Moldenberg, who does Chicken Shop Date, she used to be an internet vice.

unknown 29:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

And she was already doing chicken shop date.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Oh, while she was an intern.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

I think she was still doing uh I feel like Amelia will correct me if I'm wrong, but she was definitely doing chicken shop date for ages before it got big. And now she basically runs her own media company, right? So I think that, you know, the tools and the landscape have completely shifted, but at the same time, there's also quite a lot of opportunity for people who have good ideas and are able to put the work in. You know, you don't have to get a job with the gatekeepers, like a lot of people doing things independently and DIY and bootstrapping it. And I think part of that is because the technology has allowed you to publish far easier than you did before. You don't need to go and have professional BBC broadcasting style equipment anymore. You can do it on a phone. You can, you know, rent your own podcast studio, you can do all the stuff that you don't, you didn't, you couldn't do years and years ago. So I think if you have the tools and if you have the mentality and the motivation, you can get really, really far, a lot further on your own than you did 10 or 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

What does the future look like for you? Because you're doing so much. Like, do you have a goal in mind?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

You know what? I just want to keep having fun and keep doing good work. I think that, and this maybe this is controversial, I don't know. I think having fun in your job is really underrated.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah, no, it is so important, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Like, obviously, work is really hard, it's really tough, lots of blood, sweat, and tears going into it. But that feeling you get, I think people call it a flow state when you're having so much fun, you are kind of enjoying yourself, you feel like you're learning something, you're really stretching your abilities. I think that is really underrated, and I just love getting into that flow state with work. I think that is the fun aspect of things. And I think that if you know you can get there with the job that you're doing, I mean, happy is Larry, really.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Could you ever do a job that you don't love?

SPEAKER_00 31:45

I don't think so. I think maybe for a while, but at the end of the day, you're the one who has to live with yourself and go to bed at night. You don't want to be answering emails for a job that you hate.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

It's so, so true. And if you could leave with one final message to anyone listening, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 31:59

I would say the best tip I ever got about nerves is when you're feeling the fear, you're sweating, this butterflies in your stomach. Think of the last time you went on a roller coaster or a ride when you were a kid and you were having those exact same butterflies in your stomach, but you were excited, you were happy. Try and reverse engineer your mind into that state. Because nerves doesn't necessarily mean this is gonna be bad. It could mean you're about to be in for the ride of your life. And I think that's really important to keep in mind.