Episode 9: Communicating without Arguing
[Janna Opens Playing Flute]
Janna: Hi, this is Janna, an Alzheimer's ThriverTM.
Larry: And this is your husband Larry, and I'm thriving too.
Janna: And today you'll be hearing from the horse's mouth. In this episode, we're going to talk about how to communicate without arguing. I want to start by saying that I can't say that I can talk to people without arguing. I try, but I fail a lot.
Larry: Yep, and it takes two to argue at least. And so, what we want to talk about today is my end and your end, right? ...of how we communicate.
Janna: My end is prettier.
Larry: That's true. A lot of times when I have a point that I want to make, I don't feel like I'm necessarily being heard, and that may or may not be true, but sometimes I will cut Janna off as she's trying to explain her end of it. And the minute she says something, I will jump in there because I have to say, “Oh, that's not what I'm really thinking,” or “That's not my intent.”
Janna: And I challenge -you to recognize that if you think that happens when you're trying to communicate ...when a woman's trying to communicate ...as soon as the man speaks, it's almost like yelling instantaneously. Why? Because when a man speaks, it's deeper. It's louder. It's more authoritative. So, he doesn't even realize that he's raising it ...I wouldn't say raising his voice, I'd say just being more forceful, just by having a deep voice.
Larry: Yeah. And so, I think I'm not really speaking that loud, but my intent is to justify myself. And that's because I may perceive that you're not getting what I'm trying to say.
Janna: He's stubborn.
Larry: And yeah, and then we end up in an argument. And so, during the argument, emotions start flaring. And what I say ...does it really matter that much what I say or does it matter as much or even more of how I say it, and what my tone is, and what my attitude is in that conversation?
Janna: Do you really have to ask? I mean, as you think about it, don't you think, “Oh, yeah, it really makes a difference how I communicate the words.” It has a big impact.
Larry: I mean, at first, if you said something that you were feeling, for instance, like you're feeling down, or you're feeling ...you know, because of this Alzheimer's ...you are not able to really participate in a lot. And so, maybe that you're not needed anymore, and you just start getting down. So, my first reaction is to just talk you out of it and say, “No, no, that's not happening.” And it ends up being that - a lot of times - we get in an argument because I'm trying to talk you out of something. So, what do you think would be that ...from your viewpoint, what would you want me to do?
Janna: I got it. I got it. Start with the I. “I wonder, what would the best way be to approach a conflict? How would you like me to ask you something, Janna?
Larry: Okay. So, so, all right. When you say you're down and depressed or something like that, you would want me to ask, what?
Janna: “Tell me about it?” I would want you not to say, “Oh, no, you have nothing to worry about. Oh, no, you shouldn't feel like that. I'd want you to say, “Tell me about it.”
Larry: And then that would open up what? More conversation? I mean, you'd be able to express yourself. That's what you're saying.
Janna: I would probably try to express myself a little bit and I'd be cautious to see if it was being received. And if he was hearing me and ...yeah, I think that would do a real well from there, especially if he manages to keep his voice down.
Larry: Let's talk about something specific. I feel like you don't particularly like it when I'm on the iPhone and you're just sitting there and I'm sitting there on the iPhone, especially since the iPhone is tough for you.
Janna: Right. I'd like to be on the iPhone, or I'd like to communicate with it more effectively, but I'm not good at it and it gets so frustrated. In fact, we're looking at putting sentence up for me so that I don't have to.
Larry: Yes, you don't have to push so many prompts.
Right. What is that?
Larry: Well, we'd have to get an all-talk phone. So, that's on the docket, but all right. So that's one of the bones of contention and then I've kind of got my face in it. And I think, you know, I'm either answering a text for you or I'm talking about something that are planning with our kids or something like that. So I feel justified in being on the iPhone.
Janna: He's important. He's busy.
Larry: Yeah, but you're just sitting there, and so, how would you like me to let you know that I need to communicate something? So, the phone makes its little ping and then I quick grab it and then I'm on it for a second. What would be a better thing for me to do? To either include you? Or should I leave the room? Should I say, “Hey, I need to take this? ...or what is the problem with it?
Janna: So, you're saying when a phone call comes in and you're thinking you should answer or not?
Larry: Like a text or any other stuff like that.
Janna: And like we were in a conversation, or we were together and “should I look at it” or “should I not?”
Larry: Right.
Janna: Guess what? The answer is?
Larry: Don't look at it?
Janna : No, not at all. You might put a finger up, you know, and say, you know, “Moment please,” or something. But it's not polite to be in conversation with somebody, and then as soon as a ping comes in, the eyes go down, the attention goes to the person who's not in the room, not in the conversation. But boy, that ping was the most important thing in the world (Sarcastically).
Larry: But what if it was the president of the United States? (Sarcastically).
Janna: You wouldn't care what I thought. Yeah. So, it's got to be important. It's a ping (Jokingly).
Janna: I’d venture to say that it's ...and you know, this is sexist, but I think that a lot of times ...let me just say what I've observed ...I've observed oftentimes that a man and a woman will be talking, and a ping will come, and the woman might likely let it go by or just put the finger down to kind of quiet it or something. But the man's response ...and maybe it's for saving people, you know, men are supposed to keep us safe and save us. Maybe their response comes from they want to save. They always want to save, get things get things right.And it doesn't occur to them that they're interacting...
Larry: With you.
Janna: ...yeah.
Larry: And it's interrupting yours and my time together. And so, I think I would have to say something at that moment like, “Can I look at this ping, or do you want me to wait?”
Janna: Perhaps you've even noticed, perhaps not, because this is just today ...perhaps you've noticed that when there's a ping, your eyes goes down, and I get up quietly and walk away.
Larry: Yeah. I have noticed that.
Janna: Uh-huh. I'm trying to train you. How's it working?
Larry: I’d like to talk about the fact that since from my point of view what I'm trying to do is get you to understand me and I expect your processing time to be just as quick as it always was. And sometimes, I'll use an argument ...like if you're not quite getting what I'm trying to say or you tell me I'm speaking too loudly, or that I'm starting an argument, my mind immediately goes justifying, because I'm really trying to get you to understand me.
So, I will say things like, you know, “Ever since this Alzheimer's, I've had to do the laundry, I've had to cook, I've had to go shopping, I've had to clean the house, I've done do all these things. And you pointed out to me...
Janna: Well, it's about time (not really - laughs).
Larry: ...what about those 45 years that you did all that and you worked a job? And so that really isn't a good argument. So, whatever I use to make the argument...
Janna: Are there any good arguments?
Larry: ...well...
Janna: Discussions?
Larry: Here's the thing on my part. I need to realize, and sometimes I do in my clear moments, I realize that I'm not really getting across what I'm trying to get across because you're not receiving what I'm trying to say in the way I'm saying it. So, I can't control you, but I can control me. So, what I need to do is...
Janna: (Tongue in cheek) Prove it.
Larry: Yeah, prove it. (both chuckling) ...what I need to do is listen until you're finished talking. I think I interrupt you too much because I think I need to make a point, right then. And you just kind of clam up, and there's tears and...
Janna: I'm raising my hand right now.
Larry: Yeah, go ahead.
Janna: And why do I do that? Because in my point, when I'm the person who wants to say it, I go, oh, I need to say this right now. You should be able to wait. But then again, there's that phenomenon of the person with the Alzheimer's thinks, oh, “I’ve got to remember to say this,” and you remember, and you remember, and then it's gone and I was trying to listen to him so I could communicate effectively and graciously, but I lose it. What can we do about that?
Larry: Well since I don't have Alzheimer's, I need to...
Janna: show off...
Larry: I need to preemptively go into any conversation with the fact that it's going to take you more time to say what you're going to say. And without that understanding, I will just bowl you down, you know? My brain is kind of firing all pistons in it. I'm ready to just argue any point. So, I wrote down, I wrote down some fruits of the Spirit. I wrote down love, kindness, gentleness, joy, peace, forgiveness, self-control. And I was asking myself, do I do these things when I'm in the heat of an argument with Jan and I don't. For some reason, I have to win the argument, so I need to work on that and that's something on my end.
Janna: That's a big of you to say that ...it's not easy for a man to say that.
Larry: No, it's not in front of all these people either.
Janna: I'm very proud of you.
Larry: But sometimes there is no argument. There's not an argument until you make one. And one of those instances is when you're actually having an emotional breakdown of some kind over just the state that this is causing. And as good as you are and as well as you're doing and as much as you're thriving, you do get down.
Janna: Agreed.
Larry: You're asking me again to say, “Tell me about that,” and let you go ahead and tell me about it - let you go ahead and cry - let you go ahead and say some things that may be hard for me to hear. And I think that's something my end I can control that ...if I just preemptively kind of go into the day knowing that those things are going to be that way. I think we're learning, we're both learning through this Alzheimer's experience, aren't we?
Janna: I'm learning, yes, sure. And I have to learn everything again and again and again. But that's okay.Repetition is really good - necessary because I really listen well. I listen well.
But the thing is, the other side of my ear is already ready to open up and let go of what I just heard.
Larry: Well, there is a benefit to the Alzheimer's and that if we do have cross words, they tend to be forgotten the next day or so, I don't want to remind you. We're having less and less arguments...
Janna: Praise God.
Larry: ...and I think if we look at it as a “we win,” that's what we're trying to get to. Maybe if I come up with the argument, “Hey, look at all the stuff I'm doing around here for you.
Can't you have a little empathy for me and what I'm going through?
Janna: Yeah, I'd say, “Well, I wonder if you could restate that?” or “I wonder if you remember those years back, like when we had the quadruplets and, you know, I was breastfeeding all of them and it was pretty hard work. Do you remember that? And did you help that much in it?
Larry: Yeah, I did my part. We should also mention too, that there's a lot of these things that are similar to when we were having our kids. Janna has written her book called “Quadruplets, a Love Story.”
It's on Amazon. It's also on Audible and it talks about some of these things that we've worked out in the past. But let me tell you, it's a work in progress, right? I mean, this argument stuff between a man and a woman. It just seems to be prevalent throughout our society.
Janna: That thing about working it out with quadruplets is way easier than working things out with Alzheimer's. I mean...
Larry: You wouldn't think so, but yeah, I can see that.
Janna: I thought that was so hard at the moment. “Quadruplets ...It's impossible. Nope. Alzheimer's seems impossible, but no, there's a way around it. What is it? Let's figure out what it is.
Larry: I should tell you folks out there in podcast land that what we're trying to do is improve the quality of life, not only with diet and exercise and activities and brain activities and all the things that we've told you before, but we're also trying to do it with our care partners. How can we make the quality of life be okay when you've got more than just you with the Alzheimer’s? It’s gotta be a joint effort and maybe a community effort? So, quality of life includes getting along and not arguing with people because that really hurts. That can take you down pretty quick.
Janna: So, let's each of us try to do the best that we have with the tools we have at hand, the face we have at hand, the encouragement for each other that we have and let us learn to listen, and listen intently so that we can really hear the person's heart, their need or their intentions and maybe really get to know each other to the core so that we could all thrive very well. Alzheimer's or not?
This is Janna, an Alzheimer's thriverTM and you can be one too. You've been hearing from the horse's mouth.
[Janna Plays a Flute Outro]
Links to Studies and Articles
APA-Style References for Podcast Show Notes
· Florida Atlantic University. (2015, July 13). Maintaining caring relationships in spouses affected by Alzheimer’s disease. ScienceDaily. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150713095148.htm
· Rice University. (2024, February 13). Supportive marriages key to caregiver well-being, Rice study reveals vital link to dementia. Rice University https://news.rice.edu/news/2024/supportive-marriages-key-caregiver-well-being-rice-study-reveals-vital-link-dementia
· Devlin, H. (2024, June 12). Alzheimer’s patients retain ability to empathize with loved ones, study shows. The Times.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alzheimers-patients-retain-ability-to-empathise-with-loved-ones-8dg7rlst0
· Verywell Health. (2022, August 18). Using validation therapy for people with dementia. Verywell Health.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/using-validation-therapy-for-people-with-dementia-98683
· Alzheimer’s Association. (n.d.). Communication: Tips for successful communication throughout the stages of Alzheimer’s. Alzheimer’s Association
https://www.alz.org/getmedia/4c29359a-c9f0-4ae1-8f95-27e822635ead/alzheimers-dementia-communication-ts.pdf
· Verywell Mind. (2023, May 1). 6 things never to do when caring for someone with Alzheimer’s. Verywell Mind
https://www.verywellmind.com/things-never-to-do-when-caring-alzheimers-8776968
· Verywell Health. (2024, January 14). Best Alzheimer’s disease support groups.
Verywell Health
https://www.verywellhealth.com/best-alzheimers-disease-support-groups-4844290
