Ep.20 "I've patrolled in this halter many times" (W/ Ian Carlos Crawford)

Into every generation there is a Chosen One…

It’s finally time for our Buffy The Vampire Slayer centered episode. Please welcome host of the hit podcast Slayerfestx98, Ian Carlos Crawford! Join us as we discuss all things Buffy. This is the pop culture episode I’ve been dying to record. Buffy nerds UNITE! This episode is for you! 

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Transcript

Well, well, well, if it isn't another podcast episode. Hi, it's me, Omar, your friendly neighborhood therapist. And lately, and I'll explain why. Lately, I've been thinking about villains. So for the past couple of days, I've been thinking a lot about villains. So one of the reasons why that's come up for me is because I was recently speaking to a writer, and he was sharing with me his thoughts on how he writes and develops a villain, right? And just like the villain origin story and how important that is in the development of, you know, of a character that's a villain and how it informs their decision making and all of, you know, all that interesting stuff. And I also recently had clinical supervision. So for therapists, often we get together with other therapists. Sometimes it's a group. Sometimes it's just like one on one, but we get together with other therapists and we kind of troubleshoot together. We'll talk about cases. We'll talk about things that are happening with our clients. Sometimes it's thematic. Sometimes we'll say like, oh, I'm noticing all of my clients are dealing with X, right? Like they're all dealing with, you know, loneliness or something like that, right? And other times it's more specific, like, oh, I have this one client who's really struggling with finances and they're really having a difficult time, you know, managing their finances. It could be something like that. And one of the things that came up during that clinical supervision was this idea of the importance of sitting with being the bad guy sometimes, right? Because as much as we'd like to be the hero in every story, especially our own, sometimes we are the villain. Sometimes you're the villain. Sometimes you're the bad guy. Sometimes you're the asshole, right? Like any variation of that, it's the same thing. And I use the term villain kind of to be a little hyperbolic on purpose, a little dramatic on purpose, but I think it drives the point home clearer. But the importance of accepting instances where you're the bad guy and how important it is to sit with the discomfort of that, to sit with the guilt or shame that comes up when you've made a mistake, when you've hurt someone's feelings, when you are the villain in someone else's story. I think oftentimes I find that we, as human beings, we rush to fix it, solve it, repair it, make things better. And I think it causes like a sloppy repair job, right? When you don't sit with the hurt you've caused, when you don't sit with the fact that maybe in that moment you're the villain, you get pretty shoddy or rather you provide pretty shoddy apologies. The famous one that comes to mind is, I'm sorry you feel that way, or I'm sorry you took it that way. That's like a pretty, as far as I know, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure like, as far as I know, that is a pretty good example of someone who is not sitting with the fact that they're the villain in that moment, or they're the asshole in that moment, and sitting with it, sitting with the guilt and understanding it is what helps you repair better, actually. It's what helps you repair the relationship. It's what helps you kind of make amends, right? I think the only proper way of making amends and of repairing is by sort of understanding like, oh yeah, I was shitty. That was a shitty thing that I did. So that's just been on my mind. You know, it's difficult to sit with. It's really, really hard to sit with an instance, a moment when you're the bad guy. I encourage you to do it with help and support. You don't have to do it by yourself. And this doesn't mean you're a bad person, and it doesn't mean you are the villain or a villain overall. But I think we have to sort of own and accept our villainous moments. And I think that's part of the reason why villains are so compelling to us. I think it's a little bit of like, oh, game-recognized game. I think there's something in a villain that we see in TV and movies and literature that we kind of recognize in ourselves. And I think that's one of the reasons why we find them so compelling. So instead of... pretending like that's not there or instead of shoving it away into some dark corner, I think the more that we accept it as part of the human condition, the better equipped we'll be to make sure that we aren't always the asshole, that's sort of, that's the hope, I guess, right, or that when we are the asshole, that we are, uhm, doing all the things necessary to repair the damage that's been done, but we gotta sit with it first, and we sort of have to be like, "Yeah, I was the asshole in that moment". Uh, with that being said, uhm, I am so, so, so, so, so excited to introduce, uh, our guest today. I mean, from, from the second I was conceiving of this podcast, I kept thinking, "Well, there has to be, like, a Buffy-centric episode, there just has to be", and it was pretty obvious to me that this guest was going to be the one, like, okay, like, he, he was like, "This is going to be my number one ask", and then, you know, and I had some backups in case he said no, of course, but I've been so pleased to have him here. Uh, this guest guest is the, uh, host of the podcast SlayerFest98, which is a Buffyverse and Marvel-focused queer Latinx-run pop culture podcast. Please welcome into your hearts, Ian Carlos Crawford. Hello. 
Hello. 
Hi. 
For me, that was quite the intro. 
Oh, 
Oof. 
yeah. I want to hype you up. I want to, like, hype you up before, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
How are you? 
Uh, I'm good, I'm good. How are you doing? 
I'm doing all right. I'm going to say this 200 million more times, but thank you so much for taking the time. For my listeners, uh, this is a very busy man, like, there is a lot that he is doing, uh, the podcast alone, if you take a look at his Instagram, SlayerFest98, I mean, the amount of effort and attention to detail and work, it's just so obvious to me, just like how much care you take in the work that you do, uh, you know, especially as it relates to the podcast. How has that been? How is it, like, it's, it's, has it been a journey? Not to sound cliche, but has it been quite a journey for you? 
Uh, I mean, to add to the cliche, yes, it has been quite a journey. 
Yeah. 
Um, you know, I didn't really know what I was doing when I started the podcast. It was with two other friends that one dropped out after we did the first two episodes. The other one dropped out during season five. And honestly, once it was just me and I had like rotating cohorts, I of went like full force lean, this is my baby. This is going to be my thing. Um, you know, it's not like I, I knew it wasn't going to be, you know, make me rich or anything or 
kind 
like be a full-time career, but it was, if it's me, if I'm, if I'm Slayer of S98, I want it to be as like. Very curated, very, I, the best I could do under my no dollar budget. 
Yeah. 
Uh, so I kind of figured out where I could have folks work with me, what folks I could get ahold of. Um, I do feel like I interned at BuzzFeed in 
Oh, 
2015. 
okay. 
And that was kind of like a crash course in everything that I do for my 
like. 
podcast because I 
Right. 
had to Like 
Right. 
query celebrities to do an interview. Um, of course it's much easier when you worked at BuzzFeed in 2015 because people saw BuzzFeed and were like, yes, we'd 
to you. 
love to talk 
Yeah. Yeah. 
Uh, but, um, yeah, that, and like, I did my first, my first ever celebrity interview was Amber Benson when I worked at BuzzFeed. So 
Oh, that. 
it kind of like 
cool 
set the tone. 
I met her recently for the first time, 
So nice. 
by the way. So I was shaking. Like we were at, I'm so sorry to cut you off, but 
We 
real quick. 
don't know. 
So Charisma Carpenter is starting, started a podcast 
Yeah. 
and 
Yeah. 
we were at the, the like launching of it. And that's where I met her. And so she was at, uh, she was at the bar, just like reordering a drink. And I was just like standing behind her like a weirdo next to, next to my boyfriend who was like, go talk to her, like go. Anyway, I'm glad that I did. She was, I couldn't have asked for a better first meeting of, um, as someone who is just, like burned into my brain as like one of the most important characters in the Buffyverse. I just, yeah, I was, it was so lovely. She was so lovely. So it's nice to hear that you had a similar experience. 
My recorder, the recorder they gave me wasn't charged. When I sat down, I was like, God. Um, and like, I had nothing to do with me. It was just the one they gave me, but it was like fully dead. And I was like, oh crap, what am I going to do? And she was just like, it's okay. If you want to change it up, we'll change it up. Work. Literally, luckily I had, um, that was back when these were big, like the whiteboard posts where people would write 
hold. 
something and 
Oh 
So 
yeah. 
I literally last minute was like, could we just do fuck, marry, kill Buffy and I'll fold. Holding up. She was like, 
and 
like, she made it so easy. And I, because it was like, I don't know. I was new. I was like, I shouldn't ask her for a selfie. 
Yeah. 
As I'm saying bye. She was like, oh, don't you want to take a selfie? And I was like, oh my God. Yes, 
Oh 
please. 
my God. best. When they, when they initiate that, it's, you don't feel like you're bothering them in 
Right. 
that moment. Cause that's like, that is one of my biggest concerns really in general. I'm just always like, I'm, I don't want to bother anybody. So with, with a celebrity, it, it's like times a million, you know what I 
Right. 
mean? 
Right. 
So, 
The 
uh, yeah. 
Uh, and we got along so well that like, she knew one of my Buzzfeed coworkers. And at the end, she just liked me and was like, oh, don't you know, uh, Lewis Peitzman? She was like, we're going out together after this. Why don't you come out with us? And I was like, yeah, 
Yeah. 
great. 
Sure. I'll, um, uh, just 
Met 
let me 
at the 
look at 
bell 
my 
house. 
calendar real quick. Yeah. 
I get to the bell house and she's like, oh, Ian, this is my friend Tom Lank. Um, 
Oh, 
this 
stop. 
is. My friend, Adam Bush's parents, because. Band was playing at the bell house 
Sure. 
that night. And I was just like, this is wild. I just met Adam Bush's parents and Tom Lank at the bar with. What 
Surreal. 
is this? Um, and it was like a crash course in like dealing with, you know, especially celebrities that like are near and dear 
Yeah. 
to like our hearts. Cause it's like, oh, these were part of a show that we 
Right. 
love. Um, and then we all went to the diner afterwards. It was so nice. Um, everyone was just really cool. 
So cool. 
And I really think that like specifically that whole experience shaped me doing the 
was like, 
Cause it 
yeah. 
Okay. I know I can feel comfortable talking. 
Yeah. 
You 
Yeah. 
know? 
Uh, it was so random hearing you talk about Amber Buzzfeed. So years ago, maybe like 10 years ago, I did a Buzzfeed video. It was like a couples therapist talks about like, like famous couples in pop culture history. And so the Buzzfeed producer gave me a list of couples, you know, from like the, I love Lucy era to friends. And there were no gay couples on there. So I said, love this list. Could I please add Tara and Willow from Buffy? And so I spoke, they were one of the couples that I spoke about in like, uh, I mean, this is my own bias, but like, I don't care. And like a really positive way, I was basically like, this is relationship goals. And I sort of broke down why this particular relationship was like a template. That's like a really healthy one to use in everyday life for like the average person. So it's just like funny hearing you talk about these like pieces, Buzzfeed, Amber. Um, cause you know, yeah, in some like weird, a million degrees of separation way, I'm like connecting to everything that you're saying right now. Yeah. 
That 
is so cool. 
And at the time I kept in touch with Amber's publicist, who was this very nice woman named, uh, Melanie. She, she was the one that reached out to me because she saw that I was a Buzzfeed writer that had written a couple of posts about Buffy. 
Oh, cool. 
My client, Amber has a book coming out. Would you like to interview her? And I was like, 
Uh, 
yeah. 
yeah. 
Melanie was the sweetest. She got me in touch with, like, she put me in touch with James. When I started the podcast, she put me in touch with James Marsters, Jane Espenson, like she was very 
Oh, 
helpful 
damn. 
in all. 
Okay. 
Um, and, yeah, now, you know, I became that annoying person that's like: "I'll keep queer-ing!" 
Yeah *laughs* 
When I first had Charisma Carpenter on, I, like, kept joking with her that that was the end goal of my podcast. 
Yeah. Ugh. 
Um, and she was like: "Well, why didn't you just email me?" And I could name her publicist, her agent, and her manager all by heart because I'd emailed them so many times. 
Oh, my God! *laughs* You're like: I tried. *laughs* 
Yeah. 
I mean, yeah, that is so awesome. So, 
*laughs* 
um, the first question I want to ask you is probably one you've answered a million times. So bear with me, but I'd love to hear a little bit about how Buffy came into your life. How were you introduced to the Buffyverse? 
So, uh, then I honestly never get tired of tell- 
great. Me neither. 
Okay, 
Me neither. 
We'll tell you the podcast. Um, we'll tell you a hundred more. Um, we'll tell you a hundred more. The literally the first time I watched Buffy, my mom was really into Buffy. 
Oh! 
And I was like a nerd that was like a little judgy. Like, I was like, "Oh, I like X-Men comics." Like, 
"Yeah, Yeah. 
Yeah. And I walked into the kitchen Monday when she was watching the literal end of Becoming Part 2. 
Ooh. 
had- I-I literally walked into the kitchen. It was like, you know, one of those old box TVs we used to have. 
Yeah. Buffy 
And she's like crying, weeping at the kitchen table because I walked in as Buffy stabbing. I mean, 
you know, she was like "No." 
And I remember being like, "Holy crap, my 
Yeah. 
mom is crying a lot." And then watching it and being like, "Oh wait, Sam Macher Geller's a really good actor." Like, watching her cry and just being like, "Maybe I want to get into I want to get into this. 
Yeah. 
And here we are. 
Here we are, all these years later. Yeah, so your-your story is so much more poignant than mine. I-I just-I watched the movie. So I remember seeing the trailer for the movie and any time there is a girl with superpowers doing karate, I am like, "Sign my ass up." Like, I don't care-I don't need a plot. I just need a woman with superpowers doing karate, and I'm in. So, I watched the movie. My brother, my older brother took me, watched the movie, and I really liked it. I really-I just like had a great time, and then kind of forgot about it after a little while. And then once I started seeing trailers for the show, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I remember loving the movie when I was younger. This is so cool." And-and I literally just-since- since day one, I started, you know, with my VHS, uh, sitting in front of the TV, and just started watching it, um, from the beginning. And-and I-I'll-to this day, I still do like-like a re-watch once a year. Right now, my boyfriend's watching it for the first time. Um-yeah. That's 
a requirement for dating any buff. 
Uh, a hundred percent. Yeah, and he knew that. He-he was-I didn't push it. I didn't push it, but he was like, "I know I have to watch this show." And I'm like, "Yes. Yes, you do. I'm not gonna say anything, but you're right. You better watch this show." And we're in season four right now. We just finished Superstar. And, you know, and he's having all the like-I was gonna say the right reactions. And he's having all the like- I know what you mean. Uh, yeah. Yes. I know what you mean! Uh, yeah. Yes. I know what you mean. Uh, yeah. Yes. Yes. There is a right reaction. And he's having all the like-I was gonna say the right reactions. But meaning, meaning. 
I know 
what you mean. I know what you mean. 
Uh, yeah. Yes. 
Yes, there is a right reaction. 
Obsessed, he was obsessed with Cordelia. And so sad after season three, when she went to Angel. Um, in fact, there was a right reaction. He was obsessed with Cordelia. And so sad after season three when she, uh, went to Angel. Um, in fact, in fact, there was- There was the episode, um, where Spike kidnaps Willow and Xander. They kiss. Cordelia and Oz find them, and Cordelia, like, falls and gets impaled, and then they cut to a funeral scene. 
The cruelest- 
Mike, Mike, my boyfriend, he was, like, started yelling, and he, and then shortly after realizes that was a fakeout, and he said, Omar, I was really getting ready to stopwatch. I was like, I'm not watching this anymore. If they kill off Cordelia. He was like, absolutely not. And I was like, I get it. I get it. I was, I remember Jaw on the Floor when that scene happened, and so, yeah, so he's having, like, a lot of, again, like, the right reactions. He loves Faith. He has some, he feels a little iffy about Xander a lot of the time. So, like, things like that, I'm like, oh, so it's been nice to sort of relive, or, yeah, to sort of, like, relive that through his eyes, kind of, like, watching it for the first time vicariously through him. I mean, do you, have you had similar experiences when you're re-watching it, or re-watching it with someone else? 
Every, every person who's ever dated me has gone. I lived with two different, I had two different straight guy roommates in Brooklyn. Both of them, I went through Buffy and Angel with them. The one we, like, ended up, we were moving out, and we didn't finish Angel. But, I think he got to, like, season two of Angel, but he wasn't. 
Okay. 
Do it. 
Yeah. 
Understandable. 
Yeah. 
But, yeah, no, I've gotten so many people to watch it. My best friend, Kim, we've been best friends since eighth grade. 
Oh, 
The way I got her, she tells a story, and I had forgotten about it. I kept wanting her to get into Buffy, and she, she really liked Zeno when we were younger. So, like, it's still, 
same. 
like, you know, not a crazy leap. They're not 
Totally. 
the same, but it's like, yeah. And I kept being, like, you will like it. I know you'll like it. So, I lied to her and was, like, oh, it's leaving Netflix, so you have to watch it before it leaves 
was. 
Netflix. This is when it 
Genius. Diabolical genius. 
And that was how I got her to watch it, and she really liked it, and now she's a co-host on my podcast, so. 
Oh, that is so cool. I love, like, manipulating her 
it. 
into watching But it's good for her. It's, like, this is what's best for you. I know what's 
Yes, 
best for you. 
yes. 
What are some of your favorite, I mean, like, when you think about the show, Buffy, specifically, in general, what are some of your favorite, like, episodes or moments that come to mind? Is there, like, an, is there, like, a go-to episode that you watch a bunch if you're feeling some type of way? The reason why I ask is because I have one that, like, whenever I'm feeling, like, sad or not confident or lost, my go-to is The Freshman. I've seen that. That's probably the episode I've watched the most, honestly. Yeah. So, yeah, that's why I ask you, like, what comes to mind? 
My favorite episodes are Hush becoming, or Hush, Restless, and Once More with Feeling, and then it gets a little depending, but my go-to, honestly, when I'm feeling whatever, is usually becoming part one and two. Because I really, that, the, her running is maybe my favorite moment. 
The slow motion running 
Slow 
with that. 
motion run with that jacket that is gorgeous. 
Gorgeous. 
And the, like, voiceover narration is so good. 
Yeah. 
And I really, I really appreciate it. The thing I love about that in particular. Is, and this is, I mean, you know, a Latin mother. My mother loved Buffy because she'd be like, well, she can, like, lose and she gets right back up. 
Yeah. 
She can lose. She can have a moment of, like, I need to cry. And then she goes back and fights. 
Mm-hmm. 
And that's, like, one of her first, like, really big, like, she loses, 
Right. 
right? Um, and for me, that's, like, important to be able to see that my hero can lose. 
Yeah. 
Her plan went to shit, 
Right. 
right? 
Right. 
Didn't succeed. Kendra died. Her friends are, like, really injured. Um, and that's, like, I really appreciate that I can see her fail and then still go through it all. And then at the end, when Angela says, like, take all that away, what's left? And she grabs a sword and says, me? Like, ugh. 
Every time. 
Yeah. 
I, like, well up every single time. And, and just that scene when, like, oh gosh, I, I could talk, anyway, I'm just, like, I'm, like, reliving it as we speak. Just the way they were, they edited that episode, too, between the fight, uh, between Angelus and Buffy and Willow casting the spell. And I'm, I just remember, like, sweating, watching this, thinking, oh my god, like, the timing, is she gonna make it in time, what's gonna happen? And, and ultimately the spell working, but not in time, was, I mean, so, so heartbreaking. And also, such a, looking back on it after watching the whole series, of course, like, such a poignant moment for Willow's story arc. That's, like, when you first notice, like, oh shit, there's something, like, she's powerful, and she, maybe she doesn't realize it, or there's, like, more to this Willow character than just, like, the, the nerdy smart one. There were just so many things happening in that episode, and for the spell to work, to work, Angel gets his soul back, and to still have to be sent to hell is, like, oh, damn. That, I mean, broke my 
And 
heart. 
she, but she 
But 
does it, and she does it. 
she does 
She 
it. 
does the thing. And that's what I love so much about it, is, like, her first plan failed, the second plan is just, well, I'm gonna have to kill 
Right, 
him if it doesn't. 
right. 
And she does. 
Yeah. 
That's why I, I, a thing that always bothers me is Dead Man's Party, because I'm like, I get really mad at Joyce. When she's like, you left, 
Yes. 
you, you said you can't come 
Right. 
back, so, like, you need to be apologizing, not Buffy. 
Yes. 
That always made me so 
Yeah. 
angry, and it still does. Like, when we, you know, in Slayer Fest, we've been revisiting episodes as they turn 25, and when we revisited that, I was, like, still getting angry. I 
hear you. 
Because everyone's, like, mad at Buffy and ganging up on her, and, like, sure, Willow, Willow, I can see a little bit more, 
Agreed. 
because. Did not 
Agreed. 
kick Buffy out, and she loved 
was. 
her, 
Yes. 
and she Supportive. Willow, I can see being upset, but the fact that, like, Willow, then Joyce, and then Xan, and everyone's, like, piling on her, 
Yeah. 
and Joyce isn't taking accountability, 
Right. 
like, that makes me so mad. And, again, I know that you know a Latin parent, my mother hated Joyce forever after that. 
forgot. 
She never 
No way. 
She would be like, I remember when 
dog. 
she kicked her 
Oh, my gosh. And let me tell you something. Latin people, we know how to hold a grudge. So don't, don't cross us. Don't cross us. 
That is so funny. Um, re-watching it with, with my partner, he had the same reaction, which was, like, why is everyone being such a bitch to Buffy? 
like, 
And I'm, 
yeah. 
I know. It's really hard to get through. I just, you know, I'm white-knuckling it the whole time while watching. And, and, you know, I can understand the complexities between a mother-daughter relationship, like, fine, even though I'm still like, Joyce, you better watch it. Um, but Xander, I was like, you, you are, you just want to be a bitch to her. Like, first of all, you lied about what Willow told you to tell her. And, and now you're kind of being an asshole just because you want, for, it felt like you just wanted them to be morally superior. Like, you just wanted to be the one that could, like, wag your finger at Buffy despite being a jerk. I mean, 
a jerk. I 
despite 
do 
being 
have a very, uh, spicy take about that, though. 
Oh my god. Yes, please. 
I actually don't think he was in the wrong for lying to her. Because I do think she would have been pulling her punches. I think she absolutely would have been pulling her punches and would not have fought as hard. And the only reason she made it is because she fought so hard. 
Yeah. 
I do think, I, I know, and I like, so, like, the reason I have my podcast is because I like nuance. 
Yeah, yeah. 
And a lot of times people are just like, oh, fuck that. I hate him. Blanket hate him. Yeah, he is my least favorite character, but I actually do understand why he lied because I do think Buffy would have been pulling her punches and she would not have been going so hard. 
Right. 
While I don't know that Xander's intentions are in the right spot, yeah, 
Yes. 
I still do, like, I still, like, am not that mad about that. 
Right. 
There are other things Xander does that make me scared, but one of the things where I'm like, I kind of, I, in the long run, I do think it was better for her. 
That is, Ian, I, for the past 20-something years, I have looked at that moment and been like, Xander, you're dead to me. You are the first person, this is the first take I've ever heard that's made me go, oh, wait, I never thought of it that way. That is such a fascinating take. I could not agree more. I think, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. She showed up to the fight, like, ready to go down. Like, she was like, this is to the death. Like, someone's, the both of us are not walking out of here alive. 
Yeah. 
And that is, that was like the attitude she needed to have in that moment in order to literally save the world. But you're totally right. I think if she knew that there was a possibility that the spell was going to work, she would have been pulling her punches or have gotten like sloppier or softer or, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think we would have had the iconic catching the sword with her hands me moment. Um, I can't believe you just changed my mind. I can't believe you and what, what, you know, to echo what you mentioned earlier, that certainly wasn't Xander's intent. He wanted Angel dead. So like, for selfish reasons, I'm like, still, I'm still like, no, don't do that. But yeah, I don't think the fight would have gone the way that it would have if, if, yeah, if she didn't think to herself, this is it. Like, he 
Because 
has to die. 
Buffy, we, we, we know that she does that, right? Like, think of her with Spike in season seven. Like, 
yeah, 
I actually, and I do like them in season seven, but I actually fully understand why everyone is like, why are we concentrating on Spike? So 
same, same. Yeah. I was like, girl, come on. Yeah. 
Like, have an apocalypse? 
Like, 
it's kind of, he's just getting in the way. 
Right. 
Um, but it's because once she can see the good, she will try her hardest. 
Yes. 
Somehow make it better or. 
Yeah. 
And I 
Yeah. 
don't know. Yeah. You know, 
I, I, yeah, there, there's some, there's like a threshold, right? And this happens. With clients a lot, actually, and even with myself, I remember years ago with my therapist, him saying, you know, Omar, part of your job as a therapist is to see the potential in people. And it's your job to help them get there and to root for them and to cheer for them and to like, guide them along the way. That is great for work. Sometimes that's not the best thing for you to do when you're off the clock, like 
Yeah. 
at work, fine. But sometimes in your everyday life, you, you, you have to be the one to sort of like, I need to step away from this. And like, despite seeing someone's potential, that doesn't mean that it's my responsibility to help cultivate that. So, so that, you know, that resonates with me. The fact that like, yeah, I think Buffy saw in Spike the potential for him to be a good man. I think she even says as much to like Giles, 
Yes. 
but, you know, to what degree it's like, okay, sure. Well, let him go to therapy. Figure that. 
Right, right. 
you don't have to help him do that. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I, I understood that speaking of spicy takes, you, you just, um, you helped create a, a, a, a safe space for me to share something that usually no one ever agrees with. I'm 
I, 
a Riley apologist. 
All hot takes. Oh my God. 
Apologist. I'm sorry. 
Omar. Wait. So we, we're revisiting season five 
Okay. 
and me and my one co-host, who's also one of my best friends, Zachary Patton Garcia. We are the only two that we will be like, he didn't murder anyone. 
Yeah. 
He is the only one of her exes 
Yeah. 
that didn't murder anyone. 
No. 
He's not my favorite character. His worst sin is being boring 
Yes. 
and he is boring, 
Yes. 
but like, 
As far as the sins, the sinning on that show goes, that's, 
yeah. 
that's pretty tame. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Like, um, he's certainly not my favorite character. There wasn't, um, enough that was like compelling for me. And I don't. 
I think the show was interested in him, 
I, 
honestly. 
right, yes. And this is not an indictment on the actor or anything 
No, 
like 
no. 
that. I just agreed. I just think the show was kind of, like, ready to move on from him. You know, and again, when you're doing, when you're creating a show, like, ratings are a thing, 
Right. 
right? And, you know, being boring, surprise, surprise to anyone who doesn't know, being boring doesn't bring in the ratings. But I actually think one of the reasons why he was boring is the same reason why I would do terribly on a reality show, which is, I'm, I will just, if there's a problem, I will just talk to you about it, and then we'll resolve 
Right. 
it. I'm not gonna flip a table. I'm not gonna throw a drink in your face. I'm not gonna, like, talk behind your back. I'm gonna be like, oh, I'm so sorry I said that. I didn't realize I hurt your feelings. What can I 
What, 
do? 
hilariously, one of the very few jobs I have been fired from was I got hired to be a judge in this, like, singing competition in New York that was, 
Oh. 
like, at a bar, and they loved that I worked at BuzzFeed, and after the first episode, they were like, you were too 
were 
nice, 
like, 
and 
you 
they 
were too nice, and they were like, oh, 
my queen. 
Yes, that 
Were 
is, yes, that would be me, that would be me. They're like, you're, you're too nice, or like, too rational, like, be kind of insane, you know what I mean? And like, well, no, I'm not gonna do that. And so I think Riley's worst sin, right, being boring was really that he was one of the saner, kind of healthier ones on the show. Like, he wasn't murdering anybody. He wasn't, you know, trying to, he wasn't, like, manipulative in any way, really. And he just wanted to be loved. Like, that's really, he just wanted to be loved. He could feel, you know, Buffy's walls up, which were, they 
there? 
were there, right? Like, I think that was, I think his assessment of the walls of the distance was an accurate one. And I mean, and she talks about it in season seven, when she has the, like, therapy session with the vampire, where she's like, oh, yeah, I have an inferiority complex because of my superiority complex, right? Like, so it's like, oh, so Riley was right. Riley was right that, like, that she's pulling away or that she doesn't let anyone get too close to her. 
The thing is, I almost feel like, see the end of the beginning of season five, like in Buffy versus Dracula, when he kind of has to take the leader position, because he's 
yeah, 
the next strongest, 
right? 
He's written pretty charming there. And I'm like, we got more of this. 
More of that. 
Liked it. But mostly it's just in season five, because season five is like right where they kind of do character assassination. 
Yeah, 
Going to the vamp, he's getting 
right, 
jealous. 
right. 
I do think, and I mean, I know I annoy a lot of people in the Buffy fandom because I'm like, okay, but like, think about it. 
Yeah, 
Say 
of course. 
a blanket word. 
Of course. 
Let's think about it more. Because once someone posted, I think this was on Twitter a while ago, tweeted, like, I don't understand why the Buffy fandom gets more mad at Riley than it does at Spike and Angel. 
Mm-hmm. 
When Riley actually was pretty harmless. 
Mm-hmm. 
And I quote tweeted, it was like, I agree with this take fully. Riley is not a favorite by any means. But, oh my God, people were so mad. People were like, and were like, recusing me of being sexist for like, defending him. 
No way. 
Yeah, yeah. 
Damn, they took 
Oh, 
it and 
man. 
ran. Whoa. 
And the thing is, Riley does have an inferiority complex. 
Sure. 
Because Buffy is better than him. She is stronger. She's better 
Sure. 
at things. 
Sure. 
And I do think there is a part of him that, like, had to come to terms with Maggie Walsh and... 
Yeah. 
You're the actual therapist here, so correct me, but, 
No, 
like... 
this is... Yes, let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah. 
It's like, he wanted a mommy figure, but, like, also resented the mommy figure. And he wanted both from Buffy, but also a girlfriend. And, like, she has no interest in being mommy. 
No. No. Yeah. She's 
And 
also... 
I think... Yeah. And I think that, ultimately, his need for, like, almost the validation for, like, the... Whatever. The praise that Buffy wasn't gonna give because that's not her. 
Right. 
I do think, at the end of Season 7, that's why her and Spike worked a little better. Once we got through all the caca, 
Yeah. 
which is, you know, getting through it is a lot. 
Yeah. 
But it's like, Spike and even Angel, to a point, like, just accepted, Yes, she is more powerful than 
don't. 
me, and 
Right. 
I 
Right. 
Rylee: And it didn't make them feel inferior made them both horny, kind 
Yeah, 
of right? and with Riley it did both it like made him horny but also made him feel inferior and I just don't think they ever reconciled 
I, 
that. 
and I think you bring up a good point with him losing his mother figure Maggie Walsh and not just losing her by death, but losing her in terms of like who he thought she 
Rylee: 
was. 
Yes, 
Rylee: 
yes. 
And that it turned out she was the villain. Rylee: It turned out that and by sort of vicariously through her he was the villain, you know what I mean that he was helping fulfill the the the you know at the time we thought she was the big bad right but like fulfilling her like evil plan and I and I do who I felt for the guy you know what I mean and and while I think there was the inferiority part that he it's one of those things where I'm like. Rylee: There's your shit and then there's like the shit you can come to your partner with that you're like I think we need to work on this. Rylee: His shit was the inferiority stuff like for sure and that's that's one of those things where I would say you need to go to your therapist and talk don't come to Buffy with that. Rylee: 
Rylee: 
However, I think the loss of this parental figure the loss of his identity that was so enmeshed with hers. 
Yeah. 
Rylee: I'm like this guy just like wants to be loved like ultimately he just wants to feel grounded in a loving relationship because he just lost one. 
Rylee: And so in that instance I was kind of like Buffy girl come on like like I get it. Rylee: I get it. Rylee: I was pissed too when he was letting vampires feed off of him. Rylee: I was pissed too but like you know my mind goes into for better for worse like therapy mode and when a couple comes in because one of them cheated I don't I don't necessarily think that that means it has to be the end of the relationship. Rylee: It could be it absolutely could be but sometimes the transgression is actually where the reset happens where the old relationship dies. Rylee: And a new one is born is created and is cultivated and, and I try to to some degree I try to sort of like give couples hope after a betrayal by letting them know like yes this could be the end but this also could be like a new beginning. Rylee: And so that's how I looked at that you're like okay so Riley this is clearly like a cry for help like him wanting to feel desired wanted needed loved essentially. Rylee: Right and I thought it would have been you know and this is like, this is a TV show so sometimes I'm like Omar relax, I'm not going to do all that but whatever. Rylee: So but still in my mind I remember thinking I you know there's nothing wrong with being upset with him, but I thought maybe yeah I thought Riley had valid points that were worth exploring. Rylee: And I think people give him too hard of a time and it's still it's still kind of confuses me. Rylee: And it reminds me of people this is purely anecdotal, of course, but like I've worked with clients before where they they avoid boredom at all costs. Rylee: And they confuse boredom with peace and I tried to you know I'm and I try to help them sort of unpack like oh when things are going well when there's there's no fire to put out you get anxious you call it boredom. Rylee: I call it peace like what's going on there let's talk about that and I felt like that was partially what was going on with with people's reactions to Riley. Rylee: I'm 
yes 
like 
yes and I feel like to me that's so obvious that it's like you're just confusing boring with like 
Rylee: 
bad and those 
Right, 
are not 
right, 
the 
right, 
same. 
right. 
Rylee: Because yeah people in the replies for that tweet were so mad and then some people were like well I know guys like Riley and you know, blah, blah, blah and that makes it easier to hate him and it's like okay but that is your own Rylee: 
Right, right. 
Rylee: I don't know what to tell you he still didn't murder anyone he didn't sexually assault 
Rylee: 
but. 
Yeah. Rylee: And he and he wasn't like emotionally abusive or neglectful or gaslighting or yeah or anything like that and again, there there's, um, you know, I tell people this all the time just because someone is nice doesn't mean you have to date them. Rylee: I'm a for like someone could be lovely does that does not mean that you have to date them. Rylee: This was not that they were already in a relationship, so that was a little bit different but every 
I 
time. 
think Buffy fall out fell out of love 
Rylee: 
with him, I 
Yes, 
do think she did that's just like the problem. 
And that would, that's fair. That is fair. And that happens. Do you, so you, do you think when she runs after him in that final scene, do you still, despite that scene, despite her, you know, being like, oh, fuck, and runs after, do you still feel like, no, you, you fell out of love with him and maybe this was, her running after him in that final moment was maybe her attempt to, like, assuage her own guilt or something like that, 
So, 
maybe? 
so, this is where I'm gonna, like, bring all of my shit to it. Um, Buffy's mother is sick. Buffy found out her sister isn't real. Buffy is fighting a hell god. The first time ever she's fighting a god. 
Yeah. 
She did not need another thing. 
Yeah. 
That was bad. And I really feel, you know, when, when my grandma was dying and she was, like, my favorite person, my ex and I almost broke up. Like, there was two big blow-ups where I was, like, I need to break up with this. 
Mm-hmm. 
And then it was just, like, okay, but I don't have the bandwidth to go through a breakup 
To even do that. 
while trying to find a new job while my grandma's dying. It's not, like, again, it's not, like, he was abusive or whatever. It just, like, it wasn't quite working, 
Mm-hmm. 
but we lived together and the idea of, like, breaking a lease or finding a new, like, 
was this in New York? 
Yeah, in New York. 
And so, and so when you live, I mean, that's the other thing, too. Like, living with someone and then having to find a new place is a absolute nightmare here in New York. 
Yes. 
So, 
Yes. 
yeah. Yeah. 
So, I was, like, I remember, like, having a conversation in my head where it was, like, okay, but the, like, bad outweighs the good with breaking up 
Mm-hmm. 
here. Because, you know, he still was kind of, like, Riley, where it's, like, he still, like, in whatever crappy way he could was, like, trying to be supportive. 
Yeah. 
And then he dumped me the day my grandma went into hospice. 
Oh, my gosh. 
And, 
That's 
like, 
not, 
it wasn't, yeah, and it wasn't, I was so sad that we were, it was just, like, oh, my God, this is happening the same day? Like, I did not need another thing. 
like, yeah. 
Um, yeah, and, like, also, you'll get a kick out of this. Uh, my grandma, when we went to see her, she was, like, oh, where's your boyfriend? Oh, where, you, she kept asking. And I was, like, I'm not going to tell her he dumped me the day she, but she kept asking, and my, I remember it was, like, my cousin was, like, and I was, like, all right, can I have the room? And I told her, and she was, like, did he know I was dying? And I was, like, yeah, he did. And she grabbed my arm and went, I have money stashed in the dresser in my room. When you go back to New York, they have the real Santettos. Go see one with that money, and they'll put a curse on him. And I'm, 
like, 
I appreciate it. I'm good. Iconic. 
That is Legends-only shit. She's- That's it. 
All hands on deck, we're putting a curse on this bitch. Oh, that is so, that is so heartwarming to hear. I mean, curse- Inherently heartwarming, but- 
Right, right, but right? It 
That 
was- 
was- That's- A moment. I really appreciate that. Yeah, the looks I get when I tell people that I'm a Riley apologist, the, like, responses I get, it's really- And I stand by it. And I am, you know, and I am open, as you've witnessed yourself, Ian, I am open to having my mind changed. Like, I am more than open to hearing new information and then being like, oh, shit, you're totally right. I have yet for someone to convince me that he was terrible for her, right? Outside of the fact that she didn't love the fact that he was, that he was good for her. 
I'm also, and I promise I'm not, I'm going to sound like a weird, like, conservative boomer. But sometimes I think in fandoms in general, on social media, people hear a talking point and then they just- Parot it. And, 
Yeah. 
like, they don't give it a thought. 
Yeah, yeah. 
Because a lot of the, like, a lot of the canned reactions I get in fandoms from doing this podcast, I could write all the comments I get that are annoying. Like, I could tell you exactly what the comments will be because everyone says the same thing. 
Right, right. 
My trick when someone is complaining about one of Buffy's boyfriends, and I say this as someone who loves Spike, and people get so mad at my podcast saying that I'm anti-Spike. Like, I am open to the complaints about him because I 
Right. 
understand. 
Because they're real complaints. They're 
Yes. 
not made up complaints. 
Um, anytime someone wants to complain about Angel or Riley, I always say all of her boyfriends were toxic, and every single time it pisses off someone who loves 
Yeah. 
Spike. And 
Yeah. 
they, like, take it as an insult to Spike and then get mad at me. Every single time. And, like, I don't know, that's so boring. Like, get a new, get a new phrase, get something new to say. 
Journal about it for a little while, babe. Like, why, why are you so tied to Spike's redemption arc? 
Right. 
What is that? Yeah, which I did really enjoy. As an individual character, Spike's redemption arc, I was like, I am totally here for this. I was not Team Spike and Buffy. I was Team Spike growing as a character, for sure. And I, and I loved that. But I was kind of like, get away from Buffy. Get away from her. Yeah. So, another thought that I've, that I've had for a little while is about season four, which, um, I, I think famously is, like, the least favorite. As far as I can tell, it seems to be everyone's least favorite season. Would you agree? Okay. Um, so, not that, and I'm not here to make a take about, like, why season four is actually amazing. There are really good episodes. I mean, like you said, Hush, when Buffy and Faith do the body swap. I mean, just Chef's Kiss episodes. I do find, as I'm rewatching season four, that season four is more relevant now than it was when it aired. Because it's centered around this government, essentially this government agency, um, running around wearing masks, kidnapping, you know, non-humans, essentially. Whether or not the non, the, the demons or the, the, what do they call them? HSTs? 
Hush. 
Hostile subterrestrials, 
Yeah, yeah. 
right? Whether or not they're good or bad, right? Because they even go after Oz at one point. So, whether or not they're good or bad, they're just, they're just disappearing demons off the streets and then putting them in literal cages and, like, doing experiments on them. You know, there's this whole thing about, like, who, who gets to say who's good or bad, you know, I think, maybe, I'd like to think it was intentional, but I'm not sure. But there's also a whole thing about, like, government, you know, the role of government in the supernatural and, like, the role that, you know, and, like, a little bit of, like, government overreach and authoritarianism. I don't know, as I'm re-watching season four now, I, that, that, that's what keeps coming up to me where I'm like, oh, this, this isn't my favorite season and, and, and re-watching it now doesn't make it so. But it feels way more poignant and relevant now than it, than it ever had been. What do you think? 
No, um, I, the first time we went through season four, I did hit a lull where I was like, oh, my God. Because I do think the initiative stuff, I do think you're correct, but also I do think it's really boring. 
Yeah. 
Um, and I think it's so weird, the, I also, I've done so much research trying to figure out, people have said, oh, we only had, um, now I can't remember the actress who played Maggie Walsh. 
Oh, my 
Uh, 
gosh. 
Lindsay Cruz, Lindsay Cruz. We only had Lindsay Cruz for this many episodes, we knew that. And then other people have said, well, you know, we couldn't get Lindsay Cruz for the rest of the season, so we had to change that arc. Like, I've heard different stories from every writer that has been asked 
Yeah. 
about. I think Maggie Walsh, it could have been more interesting if she had stuck around 
Yeah, 
and. 
agreed. Yeah. 
Um, because like we were talking about with like the mommy stuff, like 
Yeah. 
that is more interesting than whatever the dynamic was with Adam 
With, 
and Ryan. 
right, right. 
Whatever they were. Um, I don't think the show, I think it's one of the few plot lines that wasn't thought out well enough. 
Okay. 
Like, I feel like the initiative could have been better, like we need one more pass 
passes. 
or two more 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I couldn't quite put my finger on, I haven't been able to quite put my finger on like why that season feels so boring. Because on paper, it sounds kind of cool. Like. 
Yeah. 
The, these, like, army people coming in, and it's, like, the technology, and they're making this, like, Frankenstein. Like, I don't know, there's, like, the concept, I'm like, oh, I do really like it, and then I see it, and I'm like, oh, I'm not, I don't care about, and I think some of it has to do with, to your point, I have questions, I mean, I wasn't in the room, so I don't know, right? This is not an indictment on any of the writers or the actors, but I do wonder, like, oh, I wonder how much thought was put into this, or how much time was spent fleshing this out, or whatever. I also think season three was a tough act to follow. 
Yes, 
agree, 
I 
and I don't know, I, I, and this may be too cynical of me to say, but I, I think, I wonder if, like, any season after season three, anything, any plot after season three was just sort of doomed to not be well-liked. I just, like, to, to go from the mayor and faith to Adam, I was just like, this feels like a fall from grace, like, 
true. Well, and Adam just, also, the villains, they did a good job of making them fun to watch in their scenes. Adam, 
mmm, 
it would, like, 
that is 
we cut to 
so 
Adam, he's talking to 
vampires. 
random 
That is so 
Doesn't 
true. 
matter, but just, like, delivering plot. There's 
Right. 
no, like, glory's trying on, like, cute pumps, and- 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 
In 
yeah, 
grey. 
and drinking- 
The mayor, 
In a bathtub. 
right. 
Yeah, yeah, that 
Mayor, 
is 
like 
so 
you 
true. 
said, was, like, fun, and, like, faith was such a good, there was, like, so much there, and, yeah, I think with Adam, it just, he really should have been Maggie Walsh's minion, because Maggie Walsh, there was depth there. 
Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, and, and I, I never put too much thought into it for whatever reason, I was just sort of like, okay, I don't really love season four. There are episodes that, again, some of the best. 
Some of the best, yeah. 
But overall, I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm good. Yeah. What is it that you think, what is it about Buffy that you find resonates with queer people as much as it does? What are some of the elements that you're, that, that you recognize in the show that resonates with us? 
So, I actually talked about this with the writer, Jane S. Vinson, and she said that the show was queer subtext until it became queer, like, explicit. 
Explicit. 
And 
Yeah. 
I think that's really correct, because the Buffy coming out scene with Joyce is, that's a coming out? 
That's a coming out 
Scene, 
story. Yeah. 
right? Like, that is what that is. 
Yeah. 
And even, like, saying it's a coming out, that is a correct analysis of which she's coming out as a slayer, right? So, 
Right. 
she's not coming out as queer, but. 
Right. 
She's still coming out to her mother about this, like, secret part that her mom didn't know, and her mom doesn't accept it. And so, I think that, in general. That whole metaphor of her hiding a part of herself, only letting certain people 
Mm-hmm. 
in, I think that resonates with queer The fact that she is, you know, the same reason we always lean to want to play a female character in a video game. Or, like, 
Oh, my God. 
like you said, if it's 
Hun. 
a woman being, like, cool with a sword or 
Yeah. 
whatever, 
Yeah. 
like, I'm going to be more on board than if it's a man. And I think that was Buffy as well. Like. 
Yeah. 
She was also always underestimated. She, a thing 
Mm. 
that my mom would always say she loved that I also loved was she didn't have to sack, which is, like, sounds a little turfy, but I promise it's not. 
Uh-huh. 
She didn't have to, like, sacrifice her femininity. 
Yeah. 
A, like, tough badass. 
Yes. Yes. I think that that is a—what's the word I'm looking for? I think that that's, like, a relevant sort of analysis. I think with someone like Xena, who I loved, I loved that show, I love that character, but there were masculine aspects to her, which I enjoyed, don't get me wrong, 
Yeah. 
but it felt like, the messaging felt like, if you want a female protagonist to carry a show and kick ass, she has to adopt masculine traits in order for this to be, quote-unquote, believable. So I agree. I mean, the fact that she just, like, wanted to do girly things and wore lots of color and gorgeous jackets, I mean, her jacket collection alone, I'm—I'm like, get me in there. So I think that that's, like, a fantastic—yeah, I think that that's relevant and, like, a really good analysis of what makes her—this character special. 
Yeah, and I— I'm now just thinking of when she's at the initiative, and they're like, "You might want a change," and she's like, "Oh, I patrolled in this halterbunk." It's like... 
Yeah, I love those memes of someone on a runway in some... 
Yeah, 
...sane, 
yeah, 
like, outfit, like, barely covering their chest, and it's like, Buffy on patrol, and I'm like, 
yeah, 
"Yes, yes!" It gets me every time, every single time. The other element that I'm pretty certain you've talked about, too, is this concept of family, and found family, and chosen family, and I know, uh, I don't know how recent it was, maybe fairly recently, where you covered the episode, um, Family, uh, when 
yeah, 
Tara's Family 
yeah. 
comes into town. And I think that that, that episode alone, kind of, perfectly encapsulates this other element that really resonates with queer people, which is like, finding your people. And them becoming your family. And that's felt... ...central and crucial to the show from day one, which I think also, you know, resonates with a lot of us. Any time... So, so when Buffy was on air earlier on, and people would be like, "Why are you so into this show?" In my head, I wouldn't, like, say this out loud, but in my head, I would be like, "A show about a girl with a secret identity that she has to keep from people while fighting both her own inner demons and literal demons?" 
Like, "You don't think that resonates with me?" Like, "You don't think that resonates with me? This little gay boy? This little c*****? Gay boy?" That was one of the first shows that felt like it spoke to me. You know what I mean? 
Nothing speaks to me quite like Buffy does. And, you know, meeting, meeting some of the actors that have been on the show has been such a lovely experience. Have you met, um, Sarah Michelle Gellar yet? No. So I met her once at, um, Watch What Happens Live. She did Watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen. My friend, um, books, at the time was booking the talent for the show. So he was like, "Oh my gosh. Sarah Michelle Gellar is gonna be on. You have to come." And I'm like, "Sign me up." And it was so lovely. She was so great and funny. I was so nervous that I was just sort of, like, saying stupid things. Like, she, she was there with other people and people were trying to organize like, "Oh, who, who's gonna get into whose car?" She was with her team and friends and whatever. And I was like, "Oh, don't worry. I'll drive you guys to your hotel." And she goes, "Guys, don't worry. He's gonna drive us. He's got us. Everyone relax." And I was, "She was like, yes and-ing me." The whole time. And... And so, my sister takes a picture of us. She goes away. Like, we have our little moment. And then I start bawling. It was, like, 20-plus years of pent-up, I don't know, like, admiration? But it was, like, an inspiration. Fondness, or I don't know what you want to call it that, like, I met her, she went away. And then it just, like, all came out. How... Generally speaking, how has it been meeting some of the actors and writers from the show? Again, given what you said earlier, given the fact that these characters are so important to us that the show and its stories were so important to us. How has it been for you? 
Um... I think because I was slowly eased into it. Like, you know, I'm... ...friendly with Amber still. Like, I had to ask her for help. I asked her if she could help me on a thing that I've been working 
Uh-huh. 
on, and we had, like, a nice Zoom call where she was, like, super helpful. Um, Tom Lenk and I have become actual friends. 
Awesome. 
Um, I went to his birthday last year, um, or two years ago. I don't remember what's the time. And, like, I don't know, it's, like, slowly been, I think, I don't know. I feel like by the time I have them on, I'm just like, okay, like, there's only been a handful of folks where I still can get a little nervous. 
Mm-hmm. 
Um, but I think, I don't know. Like, I feel like Charisma, the first time I interviewed her, I did get super nervous 
Yeah. 
about it. 
Yeah. Same. 
Um, and then, I'm trying to think. I think Julie Benz, I was a little nervous, and then we vibed so well. Like, she's great. 
Yeah. She 
Um... 
was at Charisma's podcast. She was, like, one of the guests. So, it was just, like, great to meet Darla. I was like... 
The... 
I was like, 
She... 
what is happening to my life? 
The year I went to Hellmouth Con, um, I did a... I asked Claire, I had emailed Claire Kramer and been like, hey, would you and maybe some of the ladies wanna do, 'cause it was Pride Weekend, I 
Mm-hmm. 
was like, would you wanna do a video saying Happy Pride? And she was like, oh my god, yes! I'm gonna get all the girls. But, like, it was so busy, it was one, it was, like, so busy that she was, like, I don't know that I can get, you know what, I'm gonna introduce you to Julie Benz. Do you know Julie? And I was, like, I don't. And she was, like, great, I'm gonna get her. She got Julie, and she was, like, oh, you two, you haven't been on Ian's podcast? And I was, like, this is wild. Glory is introducing me to Darla. 
To Darla. 
So, but it happened so fast that I was, like, oh, yeah, no, we haven't met. I was, like, I would love to have you on, and Julie was, like, okay, DM me on Instagram, make sure you say who you are, and we'll talk. And I kind of thought that was bullshit, because, 
Yeah. 
like. 
Right. 
She, I DM'd her, she gave me her personal email, we emailed, and I've had her on the podcast three times since then. Oh, 
my gosh. I, the first time I met her, it was, it was pretty brief, but I, you know, I was just fawning over her, like, oh, my gosh, your character of Darla. 
Oh, my God, isn't she gorgeous in 
Gorgeous, 
Persian, 
stunning, stunning, stunning, stunning. She looks great. And I was also, like, and I would, I would be remiss if I also did not acknowledge her role in Jawbreaker, 
Jawbreaker? 
which was also just. 
I knew that's what you were going to say. 
I was, like, those two, those two roles, I was, like, made me gay. So, so thank you so much. She was, like, oh, my gosh, thank you. And we chatted for a little bit, but so warm and friendly and, like, fun. Just, like, fun and lighthearted. 
We, the one night, one night we recorded, we did a watch-along of the episode where Darla gives birth. 
Mm-hmm. 
And she hadn't watched it since it aired. 
Mm-hmm. 
And she, like, had so much fun shit to say about it. But then after we ended up talking for, like, an hour and a half, I, like, told her about my ex dying and how I wrote a piece. She was, like, can you email it to me? She, like, read it and immediately sent me, like, this, like, long, like, thing about how good it was. And she was, like, so kind. Yeah. She, she has been so great. And it, I feel like that makes sense why she's consistently been booked and busy. Oh, 
yeah. 
She, like, a good actor and gorgeous, but also is, like, so chill and normal. 
So lovely to be around. Yeah. Go figure. If you're just nice to people. 
Right. 
Go figure. Um, so, Ian, there's this one question that I like to ask all my guests. I'm going to pose the question the way I usually ask it, but now I'm going to give it for, for us, for you, for this episode. I'm going to give it, like, a Buffy twist. So usually what I ask is, what is one piece of advice or wisdom that you've gotten from, like, the mental health world that you live by? So it could be something you learned from your own therapist. It could be something you read in a book. It could be something you heard on a podcast, like, whatever. The Buffy twist I want to give it is, like, what is, what is a mental health related piece of wisdom that you've gotten from the series that, uh, and it could be, like, a piece of wisdom, a lesson, a takeaway, a message that you've gotten from the series that is sort of just, like, at the core of who you are. That you take with you everywhere you go. Please take your time. In thinking about it, please. I can edit out any silence after this. So. 
I, I think, I mean, I already said it, but I really, I try when I'm, like, at my lowest. I, which sounds corny. I know to you, it probably won't because we are the Buffy girls, but, like, I really, really do think of Buffy. When Angela says there's nothing left in her saying there's me. Like, I genuinely think about that a lot when I'm, like, feeling really down. That, like, okay, I do still have me. 
Mm-hmm. 
Like, my person. 
Mm-hmm. 
And I do think that's really important. And the other thing is more of an overall. I, I've always been big on, I mean, we're queer, of course. I've always been big on Chosen Family. But. A thing that bothers me about a lot of takes in fandom is that they don't understand what that means. Because people are allowed to have flaws if they're Dear Chosen 
Right. 
Family. It doesn't mean they're perfect and flaw-free. Like, that's not what that 
It's 
means. 
not frictionless. 
Yes. And I think some people take the, because people will be like, oh, Willow did this. Or, like, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yes. And they all love each other. So, like. 
Like, family. Right. Right. 
They are family, so it keeps going. 
Yeah. 
And I think some people will get really hung up on, like, one thing. Like, there is, there is a weird corner of the fandom that hates Giles. 
What? 
Because, yes, yes. And it is because of what he, not because of what he does in season three, but because of him setting up Buffy to, like, possibly get Spike killed. 
Okay, I did not see that coming. I 
was. The 
thought it 
Spike Girls go hard. 
I, okay, sure. And, and, I mean, I think it goes back to the, the Spike obsession or the fan, I don't, I'm like, what is going on here? Okay, fine. 
I, I, I would, I would be so curious, like, your, you as a therapist, what you think of that? Cause it is really weird because I do love him. The first time I had James Marsters on, people tweeted at him to be like, don't go on that podcast. They're really mean about Spike. 
What? 
Yeah. 
And what the hell? 
My author friend, Kirsten, was writing Buffy books when we were discussing season seven. She had two Buffy novels come out. They were like the first of the, like, when we started doing that. And she said that she did not like Spike. She said that he was written poorly when he was leaving to get his soul. And that's not how you write. And I agree with her. She's right. No matter what Joss says, that's not how you write someone that is like, I love this person. I want to get them what they deserve. And saying that bitch is going to get what she deserves. 
Oh, 
That is not. Sure. 
right. 
It's a red herring. I understand. But it's bad writing. 
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 
This, like, a Spuffy account, like, bombed my DMs, my comments, my mentions on Twitter to say that we were wrong because Joss had said that Spike was going to get his soul back for Buffy because he loved her. And, like, would post quotes about it and, like, would post quotes about it and was like, you need to rescind this. You need to fire that co-host. They started tweeting at her publisher to try to get her fired. Writing books. Yes. 
Listeners, you 
Right? 
can't see, but my jaw is on the floor. I, like, I am speechless right now. No way. I'm going to, I'm going to do, I'm going to think about this. I'm going to think about what it is about Spike. I, I mean, I think some of it has to do, I think it's, Taylor's all the time. And again, just to be clear, I like Spike's character, everybody. And this is not an indictment on James Marsters. He is, was fantastic. I didn't even know he wasn't British for the longest time. I thought he was British. So, 
That 
I mean, A 
accent is 
plus. 
so good. Yeah. 
A plus. A plus performance all around. I do think that this is related to something that comes up often of just like, um, it's such a cliche, but like the bad boy. Right. And wanting, wanting, feeling some sort of validation or feeling some sort of like sense that I am special when this terrible man, uh, changes for me. 
Yeah. 
And I think there's a lot of value that we derive from that. And I think that's why, you know, I think that's a theme that comes up in like Twilight, for example. And I think that that, you know, and it, I'm, I'm. I'm reminded of, or rather like a thought that's coming up for me right now is like serial killers getting fan letters and, and, 
Yeah. 
you know, in 
Yeah. 
prison and getting married to like a fan and stuff. There's something I'll have to think more about it because it's not a fully formulated thought, but there's something that reminds me of this like trope of, oh, but I can change him. And I think that there's like a lot of value and self-worth that people get from that. Because if I can take this terrible, if I can take this monster and turn him into an angel, then what does that say about me? Well, it means I'm really special and that I'm really lovable. And so I think that has something, I have to think about it more again, but like, that's what comes to mind when I think about, 
I also, because, so again, I, I've been doing the podcast for, God, almost 10 years, but it's always been since the internet existed, right? 
yeah. 
So I, I often wonder if like me, the death of media literacy has something to do with it. 
Oh my gosh. Yes. I mean, 
Because 
that's like. 
like, 
That's the backdrop to everything. 
right? Like. 
Yeah. 
I think of, you know, I like Rick and Morty. I, it's a cartoon 
Yeah. 
I watch, but people like, people that Rick would hate think that like, they are acting the way that like Rick Sanchez would 
Would 
be. 
be right. 
And like, take the wrong lesson from the show is that he is an asshole. He loves this family, but he is like a bad person. 
Right. 
And he's like trying to reconcile with all this bad shit he does, but does more bad 
Yeah. 
shit. I think the Tony Starkification of, he is a hero, despite being a rich asshole, not people like, 
yeah, yeah. It reminds, it reminds me of people that take the wrong lesson away from George Carlin's standups. 
like. My 
Where I'm 
dad is a Trump supporter and loves George Carlin. 
Yeah, right. Where I'm like, I, I don't think you're taking away the right message from George Carlin. So, so when I think of, you know, I, I, I, um, Often think of George Carlin when I'm watching Rick and Morty, uh, it's like, oh, these characters feel so similar to me. 
yes, 
So, so I've had a similar thought where I'm like, I don't think you guys actually, you're, you're, you're not hearing what's actually 
yes. 
being said. You're not, you're not listening actually. But yeah, the media literacy part. And that's one of those things, media literacy, um, fandom, the comment section has come up in almost every single episode that I've recorded. Um, but almost every time, somehow we go back to what it's like to be online and the fact that folks don't quite know how to consume content without making making themselves the main character. Right? Like, uh, the, the ability to say, oh, okay, so this chocolate cake recipe is not for me because I'm allergic to chocolate. So I am not going to scream at this person for posting a chocolate cake recipe because I'm allergic to it. 
Yeah. That's the bean soup to talk. 
Oh yeah. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. It's, um, yeah, I think it has a lot to do with that. I, you really, I mean, I think I thought you saying, uh, that, that it was good that Xander lied to Buffy in season two. So she wouldn't pull her punches was the most surprising thing I was going to hear today. The group, the, the, the, the corner of the universe that hates Giles. That I, I really am speechless. I really am speechless. 
I've encountered all kinds. 
You've given me so much to think about. Um, Ian, think I cannot thank you enough. I know how busy you are. I know how hard you work, especially on the podcast. I can only imagine how hard you work in every other 
life. 
aspect of your At the podcast. 
I 
So, 
appreciate it. 
I mean, I really appreciate you taking the time. Uh, where can people find you? 
Um, you can find me at, at Ian X Carlos on all social media platforms. You can find my podcast at Slayer Fest X 98 on all social media platforms. You listen to us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and watch our video recordings on our YouTube. 
And they're really good folks. I mean, again, the attention to detail, the care, like you can tell that this is Ian's baby. And so it's like really, really good to see just like a good person doing something that they're really passionate about. Um, it's nice to see, especially nowadays. It's just, it's brutal out there. So it's good. It's so lovely to see like a lovely human being just doing something that they really care about and doing it well. So my hat goes off to you, you know, to another 10 years. Um, 
you. 
again, 
We 
thank 
got the revival coming up. So
yeah. But so as you all know, I am a therapist, but this podcast is no substitute for good old fashioned therapy. So take what's useful, leave the rest and don't forget therapy makes you hotter. Bye. 
Okay.