Counsel and Commentary
Welcome to Counsel and Commentary, the ultimate podcast for entrepreneurial lawyers ready to take their practices to new heights. Each week, we dive deep into the business strategies, growth frameworks, and real-world lessons you didn’t learn in law school but absolutely need to build a thriving, sustainable firm. Whether you're a solo practitioner or running a small team, you'll discover actionable insights on leadership, marketing, client acquisition, systems building, and financial management — all tailored specifically for the legal world.
Hosted by seasoned entrepreneur Jonathan Tuttle featuring candid conversations with lawyers and firm owners who’ve cracked the code to growth, Counsel and Commentary is your go-to resource for leveling up with intention and impact. If you’re ready to work smarter, lead better, and scale faster — without burning out — hit play and let’s build the firm (and the life) you deserve.
Counsel and Commentary
Navigating Employment Law's Legal Landmines With Gary Martoccio
Gary Martoccio, founder of Martoccio Law Group, shares his journey from college baseball player during the 2008 financial crisis to becoming a successful employment law attorney licensed in nine states. He discusses the specific requirements for valid employment law claims, automation in legal practice, and key considerations for starting and scaling a law firm.
When can getting fired actually be illegal? It's a question that plagues countless workers, but the answer is far more nuanced than most realize. Employment attorney Gary Martoccio pulls back the curtain on what actually constitutes a valid employment law claim in a country where at-will employment gives employers tremendous power.
"Everything that's mean or cruel or harsh or unfair is not illegal," Martoccio explains, immediately dispelling common misconceptions. Having recovered over $50 million for clients throughout his career, he reveals the specific categories where employees actually have legal protection: discrimination against protected classes, medical accommodation issues, pregnancy-related matters, and sexual harassment. The crucial factor? Timing between a protected activity and an adverse employment action.
To learn more about Gary Martoccio:
1. https://martocciofirm.com/
2. Email- gary@martocciofirm.com
To learn more about Jonathan's recession resilient mobile home park real estate Fund & ground up Flex Space Development investments: https://www.midwestparkcapital.com/
To learn more about Jonathan's lawyer Google Ads, SEO or business growth & consulting fractional CMO services:
https://www.revenueascend.com/
To get your very own podcast guesting tour of 20, 40 or 60 episodes and become the thought leader and celebrity in your industry: https://getpodcastbookings.com/
Sign up to get on the list for the World's Most Exclusive Social Networking App: https://www.prestigesocialapp.com/
To those looking to potential exit or sell their business or talk about potential business roll up partnerships:
https://www.businesscashout.com/
To sign up to the email list for the newest episodes of Counsel and Commentary: https://www.counselandcommentary.com/
Well, I would never use AI for research or doing anything in like a lawsuit or motion practice. That that's really. Some states ban it and some places just really frowned upon. You know, I don't think the research is there yet. It's very specific the case law and the citations that you have to use when dealing with litigation.
Speaker 2:But as far as like organizing a file, organizing a client's timeline or their story, Welcome to Counsel and Commentary, the ultimate podcast for entrepreneurial lawyers ready to take their practice to new heights. Each week, we dive deep in the business strategies, growth frameworks, real world lessons you didn't learn in law school but absolutely need to build a thriving, sustainable firm. Whether you're a solo practitioner or running a small team, you'll discover actual insights on leadership, marketing, client acquisition, system building and financial management, all tailored specifically for the legal world. Hosted by seasoned entrepreneur Jonathan Tuttle, founder of Revenue Send a leading lawyer. Google Ads an SEO agency. Also Midwest Park Capital a boutique alternative commercial real estate asset fund. Business cash out also Midwest Park Capital a boutique alternative commercial real estate asset fund Business Cashout a service-based business roll-up PE firm. And Get Podcast Bookings a podcast guesting tour agency for those wanting to get booked on top podcast shows. If you're ready to work smarter, lead better and scale faster without burning oil, keep listening and let's build a firm and life you deserve.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the very first episode of Counsel and Commentary. Today I have a fantastic. Keep listening and let's build a firm and life you deserve. Well, first, thank you for your time. This will be a fun podcast because I know you personally and a client of mine and multiple businesses. So first just want to give you a little background, kind of like how you started with Law.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, kind of by accident, I graduated undergrad in 2008. It was a financial crisis. There were no jobs out there. I played baseball my whole life through college didn't really have a financial crisis. There were no jobs out there. I played baseball my whole life through college, didn't really have a backup plan. And you know, I was kind of stuck and said, you know, let me go to law school and we'll figure it out in three years when that's over. So that's what led me to law school, went to law school at Florida State University in Tallahassee, florida, did three years there and then the rest is history.
Speaker 1:I always knew I wanted to be on the plaintiff's side, so I practiced plaintiff's side employment law. I always knew I wanted to be on the plaintiff's side. Throughout law school. That's what I took a liking to and, yeah, I ended up basically taking the first plaintiff's job that I came across. It was in employment law. I absolutely loved it and and, uh, you know, been been there ever since 12 years, uh and counting now in the employment law field on the plaintiff's side, and uh, yeah, it's been uh, the best, uh, uh, best decision ever going to law school. And uh, yeah, I'm very, very thankful that. Uh, you know, I guess the financial crisis kind of pushed me that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, remember 2008. That was crazy. That was just like people don't remember. That was like just crazy times like you saw so many people lost so much things. I remember like there was a big thing of like some billionaires were like jumping out of buildings or something like that, like people were killing themselves because it was like they lost so much. With that last downturn it was just the stock markets crashed, the housing crash, it was just. It was bad. You could get facing for homes for like a couple years. It was bad, it's really bad right.
Speaker 1:Oh man, yeah, it was crazy times. I mean, they're literally like people hiring. They like laugh at you, like when you're trying to like network, uh, and I'm like man, I thought my school had a really good alumni network. I went to school rollins college they do have a great alumni network. Uh, rollins college in winter park, florida, um, and even with a school like that, like a tight-knit community, no one was hiring. You know, it was laughable. Uh, like, if you try to ask them for a job, it's like, yeah, everybody's like, hey, we're just trying to survive here, we're not, we're not hiring any kids out of college. So, yeah, that's what kind of nudged me to go to law school and yeah, it's all worked out since.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's yeah. I think you took the right path, and the biggest thing with lawyers, too, is finding the right niche. How did you get into like employment law? What was your start there?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, like I said, it was just the plaintiff's side of law was something that really interested me. I wanted to help the little guy, so to speak. I looked around at some personal injury firms that did plaintiff's work and I came across a Tampa-based firm where I grew up in Tampa, florida, that did employment law. They were a relatively new firm, so I saw that as a great opportunity. They were the first firm to offer me a job and I took it and the rest is history.
Speaker 1:So I worked with that firm for 12 years before going out on my own about seven months ago and uh, yeah, been, uh, it's been awesome to uh to be out on my own. Um, you know, and forever grateful for my prior firm and, yeah, looking forward to uh continuing to grow on my own firm. And, you know, as you and I have worked together for the last seven, maybe, maybe even a little bit before I started, we even we even met and started talking, uh, talk, talking, shop, talking, strategy a little bit. So, yeah, it's been, uh, it's been great and looking forward to continuing to grow this thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. What, uh, what's kind of your focal point in employment lives or certain type of cases you look forward or what type of clients you can help the best?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean there's, I'll say, a lot of people that have employment issues. Very few of them have actual cases because most every state in the country is at will employment law. So you know it means you can get fired for good reason, bad reason, no reason, any reason, not. Everything that's mean or cruel or harsh or unfair is illegal. So you really have to have a certain type of case. The cases that we really look for are a lot of them are related to medical issues If someone's, you know terminated shortly after asking for a medical leave or, you know, placed on a performance improvement plan after asking for a medical leave, issues related to the medical accommodations in the workplace.
Speaker 1:We see a lot of that. Pregnancy related issues, maternity or paternity leave if you're, you know, retaliated for that, you know. Sexual harassment is another big topic, and then you have your different categories of discrimination. So even though there is at-will employment, you can't discriminate based on being a member of a protected class, race, gender, age, et cetera, et cetera. So those are the main buckets that I'd say of potential claims. So generalization. There's a couple more other exceptions to at-will employment, but those are the type of cases you're looking for and you're really looking for timing before an issue, whether it be discrimination, medical issues, sexual harassment, timing before between that issue coming up and the employer taking an adverse action, whether it be a termination, you know, being disciplined, suspended et cetera. So you know, a lot of our clients are people that have been terminated, but we also have a lot of clients that are still employed and having issues, so um, and all kinds of kind of varies, um, but that's uh, yeah, that's the basic gist of the type of cases we're looking for.
Speaker 2:Perfect, yeah, that gives a little clarity on that. Um, so what would be your best tips if you were starting out for like a new just like the new lawyer listening to this? What would be kind of the best tips for just in general, like what expectations or how to grow the business? What would be kind of your best tips if you're first starting out as like a newbie lawyer? Attorney.
Speaker 1:Right, right, I mean, I think you know, be patient. You know, especially if you're on the plaintiff side, you know cases are going to take a while to develop. Don't panic if it's uh, not happening right away. Um, you know, I think, stick, stick to the course If you um, or someone like myself that that has experienced, you know, you, you know the recipe, you know what it takes. Um, you know, stick to your guns. Don't change a thing. Um, you know, continue to do, um what's made you successful and the results will show up. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's the first thing you know.
Speaker 1:We're just starting to see the cases, you know that, that we've generated since I started my own firm. Those are just now finally starting to come around and resolve themselves. And, you know, it took took a good six, seven months to get that flow coming in. And I know some other practice areas, the cases take even longer to develop and start resolving. Um, but, yeah, just stick, stick, stick to the gun, stick to your script. Um, you know, I think, try to try to get good people around you. Um, you know, starting with someone like yourself, john, um, you know, to help on the marketing side of things. Um, you know, from from a guy like you to to your in-house, uh, employees, you know whether it be a legal system, paralegal, other attorneys, yeah, I think get great people around you get great support.
Speaker 1:You can't put a price on having great support and if you have to overpay, overpay. I think that's one area of the budget you don't want to have a really tight budget on. You want to make sure you get the right talent and the right support around you. That means everything, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally agree with that. We were talking about that before off camera, just having the issue, the biggest issue. Then you have real problems. The first problem is getting the business and getting the leads and the clients and getting the cash flow. But after that it's like, how do you scale? It comes down to talent, people and the people you, your partners and you know who you align and work with, because that makes all the difference in of world. You could have opportunity.
Speaker 2:Costs is a huge thing in the business. You get the wrong people and things could set you back six months and you just put all that effort, time, resources, energy, effort and you lose it because you have the wrong partners. So I totally agree with that, because that's every business owner's biggest challenge. What are some kind of like? What are things that you've seen the best or some tips that you've seen so like? As it's more season, you mentioned a little bit of marketing. Is there some things you think there are some things people should look forward to kind of grow their practice if they're already not a rookie anymore, they're not a newbie, they've been practiced, you know, five, ten years or they're scaling. What are some kind of tips you'd recommend?
Speaker 1:right. I think trying to automate process is the best you can. Um, you know, I know ai is obviously a big, big topic nowadays. It's, um, really, you know, taking the business world by storm. Um, while I would never use AI for um research or doing anything in in in like a lawsuit or motion practice, that that's really some States ban it in some places just really frowned upon. Um, you know, I don't think the the research is there yet. It's very specific the case law and the citations that you have to use when dealing with litigation.
Speaker 1:But as far as organizing a file, organizing a client's timeline or their story, a lot of what we do on the plaintiff side is we send demand letters. I think you can really automate that process. You have a good system in place. I have a company that I've been working with that's helping me. It's called Valgorhythm. They've been great, obviously, on the marketing side. Your company, revenue Ascend, has been so vital to getting the cases in and then now Valgorhythm is helping me kind of streamline that intake process to getting the initial story organized and the man letter out and it really, you know, getting to the point where we can take information and documentation in a file, give it some direction and it makes sure everything is touched on and that story is told to a T and it sets up the case for success, sets up your clients for success. And yeah, I think the automation is going to be something to get you to the next level.
Speaker 1:I just I stay away from it in litigation, you know, mainly because I don't think it's there yet. But you know also, some states, some jurisdictions, don't even allow it. You have to like verify that you're not using AI yet. So, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that develops. You know, I'm sure that the case law engines there's two big ones in law LexisNexis and Westlaw. They're basically the Google for case law They'll probably have some kind of automation pretty soon.
Speaker 1:But that's it's interesting because that's like a real skill, like finding the cases and finding what cases to cite and that's it'll be interesting to see how it goes and if that can be automated and what the various bar associations are going to say about that. But yeah, that's that'll probably get there at some point. But yeah, as far as like using like chat, gpt or other AI engines, I don't think they're there yet as far as the case law stuff. But yeah, the other stuff. Absolutely use it away on your intake process and your demand letter drafting. You know any email drafting stuff like that. It really helps with demand letter drafting.
Speaker 2:You know any email, drafting stuff like that it really helps with. Yeah, that's definitely gonna be fascinating to see how the ai plays out with, uh, in all businesses, how the legalities, because it's gonna it's gonna disrupt so many things and how many take away so many jobs. That's the biggest thing is gonna take away so many normal jobs or where the people are gonna get replaced with it's so that's gonna be an issue in the future, I think, is you know, like then, do you see like there's going to be cases against going against the technology?
Speaker 1:I could see that all right. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's frowned upon. Yeah, like, like I said, I think that there's going to have to be some kind of consensus rolling. Uh, because it's just, it's coming to the forefront and, um, I don't know. It would be really interesting to tell, but from from what I've seen, as far as it helps it can help streamline you know your process from like intake and getting letters out and things like that it could really make it to where maybe you can do the work that would normally take three or four attorneys. You can do that with one or two, right? That's, um, the difference I'm seeing. You're always going to need a negotiator, you're always going to need a litigator.
Speaker 1:I don't think there would be you know, robots negotiating deals, at least in any time in the near term, or litigating in a courtroom, but, um, yeah, for for some of the back end work, uh, it could really help. It would really help. Um, you know, and it's hard to find good help, so if you can find any way that you can to, um, get more done with less, you know it's ideal yeah I totally agree with that.
Speaker 2:With, um, you have like a story or like a case that you like thought was like kind of give like a cool case study of like something you thought was like. Other lawyers said this is impossible or this was a case that like nobody thought get done and you kind of turned around. Do you have any stories like that?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know I I think just more general, I'd say I think a lot of lawyers in our industry are scared to take people that are still employed and I think sometimes those are some of the best cases to take. Um, I think they're sometimes some of the easiest to resolve if someone's having an issue in the workplace and you know they're not happy with their employer and maybe their employer also isn't happy with them.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, let's let's go see if we can work out something. As far as a severance package, um, and I think a lot of times, employers are even, I think, uh, I wouldn't say excited that someone's bringing a legal claim against them, but employers are very receptive to it because they see it as a way to resolve a problem and reduce their headcount. A lot of employers are looking to do that anyway, so I wouldn't shy away from those. You know that's something that I've learned over the years and you know it definitely has to be a really specific type of case, specific type of employee and employer situation. But, um, yeah, that that's one area that I've seen.
Speaker 1:Success that I don't think a lot of. Um, you know attorneys look at and look to those cases, um, and yeah, I mean, even with what we've done, um, you know, with the website and you know search terms and stuff like that, we're picking up a lot of people that are still employed and having issues and, yeah, sometimes those can be the best cases. It has to be the right situation. I mean, sometimes it's premature, you know, to get an attorney involved, but sometimes it's just the right timing for the employee and the employer alike and we can work something out. So I think that's probably the one area where you know a lot of work I've done over the years has been a little more unique than the traditional case, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. It's just being creative and looking where other people opportunity, where other people ignore. It's great, great, he's just right there. What is the biggest cause? We know you've uh well, it's probably one more in this now, obviously, but like 50 million recovered. What's uh. What was the biggest case you had?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the uh biggest one to date has been a class action that I did a few years back out of Rockford Illinois. Um, it was, uh, you know, Rockford. I know that's a close to your, uh, your old stomping grounds in Chicago, but uh, yeah, so that's an area where there was, you know, it was booming back in the day and a lot of businesses are now closing down. There's a lot of factories out there. Um, basically, this factory had closed down, um abruptly, and you know there's a law called the warn act. If you have a certain number of employees and you have a plant closure, um, there's. This is just a generalization of the law. There's some idiosyncrasies in it, but basically this was an entire plant closure in Rockford. You have to give them either 60 days worth of notice pay or you have to give them 60 days working notice where they know 60 days in advance, hey, your last day is going to be two months from now, essentially, and you give them the heads up. Your last day is going to be two months from now, essentially, and you give them the heads up. So this company had provided that notice and then, like a week later, they just closed the doors. And you know they said there was an unperceivable circumstance and the law. You know, basically they had a defense to the law. That was an exception to the, to the Warren Act.
Speaker 1:You know we ended up settling. I'm not sure how it would have played out if it went all the way to, uh, you know, a trial. We felt good about our chances but at the same time, um, we got what we felt was a fair settlement. The court approved it, Um, and we helped uh, those folks recover, um, uh, at least a portion of what they would have received, Um, you know, had they been paid out the 60 days or been able to work out the 60 days of notice. So, yeah, that one I think resolved. It was like 400,000,. You know I had a private settlement that's confidential, that you know resolved for about 750,000. Can't really talk about the private, confidential settlements, but that Rockford products case with that factory up there, that's the, I guess, the largest one that was public knowledge, that was a lawsuit, it was a class, it was approved. So you can talk about those because it was all out there in the public. But yeah, that's the largest, I guess, non-confidential resolution that we've had.
Speaker 2:Nice, yeah, that's huge. And then, what are some of your kind of goals? Like I know you're kind of like you want to talk about some of the states you're in and kind of, what are your kind of goals over the next three to five years as you're growing your practice?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm licensed in nine states. Now I would like to try to get licensed in another state or two, um, you know, here in the next three to five years I think that's a fair timeline. Um, we'd like to try to grow, uh, you know, to add a, add a few more attorneys on board. Um, you know, and uh, you know, I'm still always going to handle cases and um and work them, but we'd love to, you know, sit back, uh, eventually I think this is a long-term goal to sit back and have some great attorneys working for the firm and kind of oversee them in their cases, and that would be the hope and the goal. Got a lot of work left to do, though.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's pretty fascinating. How long have you been as your own firm and what was the biggest challenge you've had and how you overcame it basically.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're seven months in Challenging, I mean, I think, just getting going. Honestly, once we got it going it was kind of clockwork. My day-to-day feels almost identical to what it felt like at the old firm. So I think, just getting going, having the courage to get going and, you know, deal with all the you know kind of BS. You know business related stuff not on the legal side of things as far as you know, setting up a business, the compliance stuff, you know just getting all that going to the case, management, software stuff that I never had to think about at the old firm.
Speaker 1:You know, because my old firm was great. Everything was set up for you. It was turnkey. You showed up and boom cases, just sit at your desk and you ran with them. But you know having to get all the business stuff set up, you know, from marketing to technology related stuff, setting up other employees and setting up technology for them. And you know, like I said, thankfully I have great people like yourself and Valgorhythm that have helped me out. You know it's been totally invaluable. But yeah, just getting going, I think that's the hardest part and you just, you know advice to anybody would be just to just to dive in. If you're thinking about it and it's something you know you want to do, just just get out there and do it. You'll figure it out, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Totally agree with that. So obviously, as a lawyer podcast, do you take referrals? Is that part of like you know something? You look?
Speaker 1:forward to or are you too busy to handle more cases? Yeah, no, I mean always, attorney, referrals are always great. You know, different states have different laws on kind of referral fees and what has to be disclosed to the client or whatnot. But yeah, I mean, generally speaking, take referrals and you know if a referral fee is possible to work out, we do do that. And you know if, uh, referral fees possible to work out, we, we do do that. Um, you know, like I said, it depends what state and uh, you know, just make sure you're compliant with the, with the laws and the ethical rules of each state yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's so many like, that's why there's lawyers for every little niche. Not one lawyer does everything, so something like that. What, um, as we're wrapping this up, what kind of was, uh, one book or two that you kind of gave you like really inspiration, or like you think was like the most, maybe inspiration or influential or like motivated you the most, as in your firm?
Speaker 1:right, I uh, you know it wasn't a book, but it was more like a like a blog article that I read. Um, my best friend uh of mine sent it to me and it was about a lawyer that started his own firm and, um, you know, he, basically I was a guy out of miami. I forgot his name. Now I gotta, I gotta think of this, because someone else asked me this question too and I uh, uh recently and I uh, the name of the firm slipped in my mind, but it's a, a guy that has a pretty decent sized personal injury firm in Miami now and he left a bigger firm and he was just like I got to a point where I just couldn't do it anymore. I was ready to go out on my own and I just did it. I didn't care what cases came with me or what cases didn't. I obviously was compliant with everything and made sure that I was doing everything appropriately and correctly, but, aside from that, I didn't care if my everything was perfectly lined up or anything like that with my new firm. I just got out there and I did it, you know, and you just have to go, and once you get to that point where you know you feel like you need to make the move, just just jump out there and do it. And when I saw that I was like, yep, it's, it's time.
Speaker 1:I feel just like this guy felt, whatever, you know, 10, 15 years ago when he made the move, um, you know. So it was, um, you know, it was exciting and, yeah, that kind of gave me a little bit of inspiration. Um, you know, like I said, uh, very grateful for the experiences that I had in my prior firm firm. But sometimes it just gets to the point where you've kind of done all you could there and you know they've done all they could for you and vice versa, and it was just, you know, time to make the move. And it was, uh, yeah, that reading that uh article, that gave me a kind of a little bit of inspiration, as I because I felt, I felt what, what he was writing in that article, what he was saying, and I just knew it was, uh, it was time to go, you know yeah, just I think, uh, there's a certain point where you get to like you've done all you can.
Speaker 2:You're old, you know. Now it's one challenge. You got the new challenges, new opportunities and the rewards that come with it, and the only way you can do that is start your own. You know firm and scale accordingly. It's that's just how business and entrepreneurship is. 101, so right, what would be the, what would be the biggest challenge you've faced? Just being in your first year? What'd you say?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, um, I think just, uh, like I said, the backend stuff that, uh, you know that I that wasn't something I had to deal with um, you know, figuring out how to, you know, make time for that, um, cause, you know a hundred percent of what I was doing, um, you know, prior to starting my own firm, which is strictly working the cases, um, everything, housekeeping related, business wise, all that, um, you know, uh wasn't anything that was uh was on my plate.
Speaker 1:You know, now I've got stuff I mean down to, like you know, the rent, taking out the trash, stuff like that. Right, like, right, like, uh, you know, just just getting all that stuff set up getting cleaners for the office and whatnot, um, you know, getting water jugs for the office, stuff like that. That, uh, I mean, I think eventually we'll get to the point where we'll have like an office manager or whatnot, but at first it really isn't necessary for the size of firm we are. I've got about six employees, so just dealing with some of that stuff and figuring out the processes and all that, dealing with bank accounts and insurance and stuff like that, payroll and everything. So, yeah, I mean there's so many resources out there, there's so much technology that can help you and once you get it set up, it's not as overwhelming as you might think.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean I think that's been the biggest challenge, like I said. Otherwise, I mean everything feels kind of kind of clockwork. Um, maybe the intake process is something that um is a challenge. Getting set up, um, you know setting up um, you know how you're gonna get the cases with your uh, you know your internet presence, google ads that you've helped with John, and then you know what are you going to do when the leads call, call in or write in through your website and having that process down, how to get all the information that you need from someone and then, okay, the accept or reject the case, setting up that process and making that as streamlined as possible. And yeah, I mean it's been kind of clockwork, though you know, can't complain one bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. Yeah, you've been crushing it with Google ads, so that's crazy. So, as for other lawyers listening to this, so what would be what ways can they contact you if they may be potentially frugal, if they want to just get in contact with you or learn more about your firm?
Speaker 1:All right, sure? So yeah, either our website, martossiofirmcom M-A-R-T-O-C-C-I-O firmcom, or gary at martossiofirmcom is my email. That's usually the best way to get ahold of me. Yeah, website has all the information you know for any potential clients as to how they can have their potential case evaluated. But yeah, website or email is ideal.
Speaker 2:Perfect. So any last thing you want to say that I may have missed, or anything like a pro tip or anything less. Last second, last second.
Speaker 1:We kind of covered it all. I really appreciate you having me on. Uh, it's been a honor to be the the first guest on this uh wildly successful podcast here, yeah I appreciate it, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this should be. Uh, this will be fun. Man, this is the first episode, first episodes, and people say I might get podcast bookings to where I book people on shows and the first episodes usually have the most downloads because it's kind of like a Netflix special. Even if you have like a big guest later on or somebody catches it, they go back to the first episode.
