Counsel and Commentary

Family, Finance, and Fiduciary Duty

• Jonathan Tuttle with Roger Henson and Anna Henson • Season 1 • Episode 4

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Three generations of legal wisdom converge as father-daughter team Roger and Anna Henson share eye-opening insights about estate planning that could save your family from unnecessary heartache and conflict.

The Hensons cut through common misconceptions about wills versus trusts, revealing that contrary to popular belief, trusts aren't always the superior option. "The cost of creating a trust is significant," Roger explains, "but what most people don't factor in is that when it's time to distribute the assets, there is almost as much expense there as in the creation." This candid perspective helps listeners understand when each option truly makes sense, particularly for blended families or special needs situations.

What's particularly valuable is their practical guidance on timing. Estate planning isn't just for the elderly or wealthy—it's for anyone experiencing significant life changes. "If you acquire an asset, like buying a house as a young adult, it's worth considering a transfer on death deed or a will," Anna notes. Their stories of clients who waited too long serve as powerful cautionary tales, including one about a teacher who never updated her will after her named beneficiary died, creating chaos she never intended.

This episode is brought to you by Top Attorneys Of North America. https://topattorneys.us/

Perhaps most compelling is their advice for having difficult family conversations about inheritance. While acknowledging that every family has its unique dynamics, they emphasize that problems "will never get better if you don't talk about them." Their professional yet warm approach demonstrates why thoughtful estate planning isn't just about distributing assets—it's about creating clarity, reducing conflict, and ensuring your wishes are respected after you're gone.

To learn more about Mr. J. Rodger & Anna Henson:

1.  www.rogerhensonlaw.com

2. or call  405-273-8558 


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Three Generations of Estate Lawyers

Speaker 1

And in that line where we know that the parents have indicated to us that a certain child is really going to be litigious, let's say, then we're able to draft language into that trust agreement that reduces the risk of litigation. Yeah. I'm not going to say it will eliminate it, but it will certainly give pause to the person who wants to litigate.

Speaker 3

And I was going to say and tell your attorney, tell your attorney if you're anticipating that this is like it's a safe space. We've heard just about everything. You're not going to surprise us.

Speaker 4

Welcome to Counsel and Commentary, the ultimate podcast for entrepreneurial lawyers ready to take their practice to new heights. Each week, we dive deep in the business strategies, growth frameworks, real-world lessons you didn't learn in law school but absolutely need to build a thriving, sustainable firm. Whether you're a solo practitioner or running a small team, you'll discover actual insights on leadership, marketing, client acquisition, system building and financial management, all tailored specifically for the legal world. Hosted by seasoned entrepreneur Jonathan Tuttle, founder of Revenue Send a leading lawyer. Google Ads and SEO agency. Also Midwest Park Capital, a boutique alternative commercial real estate asset fund business. Cash out a service-based business roll-up PE firm and Get Podcast Bookings a podcast guestbased business roll-up PE firm. And get podcast bookings a podcast guesting tour agency for those wanting to get booked on top podcast shows. If you're ready to work smarter, lead better and scale faster without burning oil, keep listening and let's build a firm and life you deserve.

Speaker 4

Welcome back to a new episode of Council and Commentary. Today I have two guests in the episode, so a unique experience here. It's Roger and Anna from JR Henson Law. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3

Thanks, jt, we appreciate it.

Speaker 4

Yes, we look forward to this, Awesome guys. So give us Anna. Do you want to start first, Kind of give you a little background, how you got a lot, and then go from there yeah, well, um, so this is actually a family practice roger's my dad, and so I got involved in law.

Speaker 3

You know, it's kind of funny. You grow up in small town and everybody says, oh, are you going to be an attorney when you grow up? Are you going to be a nurse, like my mom's a nurse? And I've no, no, no, no. And this, uh, in college I was like you know what, actually, maybe. Yeah, I think I will wake up in a journey, so it's cool being exposed to it my whole life and then ultimately deciding. You know, I got a degree. My undergrad degrees are in philosophy and strategic communication, and law is really the perfect marriage of those two things, of learning how to think clearly, articulate yourself well and create cohesive and logical arguments and then communicate that strategically. That's kind of the name of the game. So it was a really nice transition into the field, and then to have a mentor like dad really was the icing on top of the cake. It was.

Speaker 1

It was that's kind of how I got into it, but yeah, and to expand on that, uh, my dad was also an attorney, so Anna is third generation uh, three generations of attorneys here in Shawnee, oklahoma.

Speaker 1

And I had a similar experience my dad, when I was born, he was the county attorney here. Now it's referred to as a district attorney and I remember sitting around the breakfast table and the dinner table, hearing some of the stories and particularly when he was was county attorney, and then being able to see him in the courtroom later when I was in in high school and all, and it was something that I saw a lot of value in, because dad was helping people and, in many respects, helping them find a way to get to the next phase of their life and to have sustainability and satisfaction of where they are, and so I liked it. I went to law school, I did. I had decided by the time I was 13 I was going to be an attorney and then became one, and then then, lo and behold, my daughter decides to become one the genes are strong yeah, the whole generation.

Speaker 4

But that's it gives you like, because I grew up in a real estate family, my dad and I obviously pursued real estate as one of my adventures and so when you grow up and you absorb it, I think you have a step ahead and initially and I might maybe agree with me on this initially you're like no, I want to do my own thing, kind of like wait. Actually, this is actually a good pathway and if you could bring value and add value and you're excited about it, I think it's a great way to navigate your future growth. What kind of first drew you into estate planning and trust law? I know you guys do real estate and business law, but let's start with that to begin with.

Speaker 3

Start with estate planning?

Speaker 4

Yeah, or if you want to do real estate, whatever kind of, because I know you focus more on the real estate. Is that correct?

Speaker 3

Yeah, well, honestly, we both do kind of all of it, which is that's one of my favorite things. You never know what's going to come in the door and it forces you to stay current and engage in all sorts. This one in law school trust and estates was one of my favorite classes. It was trust and estates and property, and every time I got to the end of the semester and I kind of went, oh no, this is definitely my favorite class this semester, I would just laugh because it would be the type of law that dad practices, and so trusted estates was one of those, and I found you know in how, in how dad does trust in estates and how he's kind of mentored me, as well as how we both think about it.

Speaker 3

It's just a privilege to have an insight into people's lives because estate planning you get to know someone's family really intimately. You see, you know, you learn their fears, you learn their concerns, you learn who and who they trust, who they don't, what they ultimately want. It's a very deep insight into the core of a person, and so it's really an honor when people trust you to be the one to handle their last affairs, and especially in a small town. So you've got. I think not only is it just a privilege to be able to help people be at peace with something that's inherently hard to be at peace with with your own mortality. Help them be at peace with that and also give them some peace of mind, and it's interesting to figure out how to make people's very specific wishes happen to the best of your ability. I mean, what would you add to that?

Speaker 1

Well, yes, my dad did a lot of probate and wrote many wills when he was practicing law, and that has continued to evolve. And what's been interesting about watching the law over the last 49 years is how it has evolved to meet the needs of the people. Before then, back when I first started, it was wills. That was the primary way of doing estate planning. Was you do a will Then came along, or just before? That was joint tenancy.

Speaker 1

One of the biggest problems that existed at the time when I graduated from law school in 1976, is that the estate taxes here in Oklahoma they would tax. There was no marital deduction and so when a spouse died, the other spouse had to pay estate taxes. That's not true today. In fact, in 2010, oklahoma did to pay estate taxes. That's not true today. In fact, in 2010, oklahoma did away with the state taxes. But there have been things that have that have been passed by our legislature that have actually benefited people. The key question at the very beginning that I ask people when they come in for estate planning is what do you want to accomplish? Because if we understand the goal, then we're able to use the law to craft a way to meet that goal at a reasonable expense and where what is left for the children is greater than what it would be otherwise. Yeah, yeah, what is left?

Wills vs. Trusts: What You Need

Speaker 4

for their children is greater than what it would be otherwise. Yeah, yeah, no, I yeah it's. Estate planning is one of the most powerful tools and it's also one of the biggest things people have the biggest stress about, because they're like how is it going to transfer to my family for future generations? Uh, and what? So, to that point, what would be the difference between a well and a trust? One one should consider one over the other because that's you know, I forgot the exact number, but the average American doesn't even have basic foundation for estate planning. So what would be the difference between those two?

Speaker 1

if somebody's looking, considering one of those options, Well, if I may address that and I'll just be frank with you, JT, I'm not a big proponent of trust, except when the situation allows for it or calls for it. As far as a trust is concerned and this is the basic difference from my experience a trust is created and a trustee is named. Typically it's the settlor or the one who creates the trust is also the trustee, and then they name somebody to succeed them upon their death. But that requires administration of the trust. Currently, the expense of setting up a trust can be as much as the cost of a probate or a significant cost of doing a probate. Nobody oversees that trust, Whereas if you have a will and you have to probate the will, the court is there to oversee to make sure that the wishes of the one who made the will are followed.

Speaker 1

Cost of a probate, you know, like I say, is significant. Cost of creating a trust is also significant. But what most people don't factor in on a trust is that when it's time to distribute the corpus or the assets of the trust, that there is almost as much expense there as in the creation, and that is particularly merited where there is discord among the beneficiaries.

Speaker 3

Can I jump in Sure? Yeah. So I would say and again, all of this with the caveat of in Oklahoma law just need to put that in there. That the way I often describe it to clients, because a lot of people you know, you hear everywhere oh, I need to trust, I need to trust, I need to trust, I need to avoid probate. There are other ways to avoid probate, like non-probate transfers and things of that sort. So usually when we have an opportunity to sit down with people and discuss their assets and what they want to do, you don't need to go through the expense of a trust and it'll be more cost at the end. No-transcript. So it's just a matter of really, what are your goals. If you've got very specific goals, if you've got tax related goals, whatever it is or if you have a very significant estate, then a trust might make sense. But it really just depends on your assets and your goals.

Speaker 1

I will add that, as far as the trust is concerned and Anna is correct If you're looking at federal estate taxes, it behooves a person to take a really good, strong look at. The use of trust would be warranted is where there's a blended family, or there are children that they want to benefit more than they want others but there's got to typically be or a special needs child, whereas if a special needs child were to inherit the assets that might actually kick them off of the program that they're on that the state provides for their need and care and maintenance and you don't want to do that simply because once you're off, it's real difficult to get back on again. Yeah.

Speaker 1

So there are circumstances that merit the use of a trust, but just a blanket. You know trust for everything. I disagree with that yeah, I like that.

Speaker 4

It gives a clarity behind that situation and what's the life stages? Should people start thinking about estate planning?

Speaker 1

I mean. Well, from my, from my experience, I think most people need to start contemplating it when they're in their 50s or early 60s and particularly when they're looking at retirement or about to retire. One of the tragedies that I have seen have been people who have put it off too long, and I remember in one particular situation. This lady was a school teacher. She had never been married, no children, she claimed. She was dirt poor and she came in to see my dad. He did a will for her. She didn't want anything else. She left it all to her nephew.

When to Start Estate Planning

Speaker 1

He suggested strongly suggested, I might add that she name an alternate in case he died, and she was convinced that she would die first. Turns out he passed away first. Then she was not capable of changing her will and it was real interesting because I probated her estate. I was the one that called the nephews' children. He had one natural child and one adopted, and I got a very interesting reaction from both of them and she probably would have rolled over in her grave had she known that it was going to go to the two of them.

Speaker 3

And I would say also in the time, the times to consider estate plans are times when there's a large change in your life. If'll say I'll expand on that a little more because if you acquire an asset, so if you are a young adult and you buy a house, it's worth considering transfer on death deed or a will something of that sort. Once you start acquiring assets, it's time to start thinking about designated beneficiaries. Once you have kids, time to start thinking about that. But at each moment when you have these big life changes are times to review it. So when you get married, time to review it, if you've already got an estate land, when you have kids time to review it, when you retire, time to review it.

Speaker 3

I had someone whose will, their most current will was 1978, when their child was an infant who is now grown, with kids who are grown, so it's like that just wasn't relevant anymore. It wasn't accurate to what she wanted. So, yeah, I would say, just being mindful of when you've got these new exciting big life changes to also consider, okay, I might need to look at is my will still accurate?

Speaker 4

Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1

Or more to as much to the point as what Anna has said. Not only is it accurate, but does it meet my needs, as my life has changed.

Speaker 3

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1

Because life is dynamic.

Speaker 4

I see, when you start getting real estate involved and assets like to Anna's point that becomes, those little assets become worth a lot more as they get paid off over time and then you don't want the state to have it. The family ends up wanting to fight over it. So what would be the biggest mistake people make when creating like their estate plan that you've seen?

Speaker 2

not funding their trust correctly mistake people make when creating uh like their estate plan that you've seen not funding their trust correctly, I would say, oh, that would be one of the biggest mistake.

Speaker 1

no-transcript adequately anticipate things that may occur in the future. I've had people come in and say well, I want to leave it to my three kids, that's fine. What if one of them passes away? Right, you know. Do you want it to go to the remaining two, or do you want it to go to the children of the third child? Or what if the third child doesn't have children now and do have children later? Right.

Speaker 1

You know, it's those things we don't like to think about, the fact that an entire family can be wiped out in an event. But I can tell you, jt, two events come to my mind immediately where an entire family was wiped out from automobile accidents on the interstate.

Speaker 3

Yeah, and it is hard to think about, but they are important things Making sure you understand your estate plan and how to use it, and making sure that you genuinely consider all of the options that need to be considered.

Speaker 1

And that's probably the key thing, hannah is let's look at what is available. What? How do these various items, uh, meet the goals and needs of our clients, because there is a tapestry there in the law of them. And how do we do that reason at a reasonable expense now, so that our clients and their family will have a reasonable expense upon that ultimate event? Yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah, at first. I've interviewed a few attorneys and they've had scenarios like that not specifically in your type of law, but just like injury attorneys where they have had to sue somebody from where the entire family had passed away. It's crazy Trust administration what specifically happens during a trust administration when somebody passes away?

Speaker 1

in that scenario, basically, In that scenario I will say every trust agreement that I've seen addresses when the primary beneficiary passes away. It will then say it will either go to the surviving spouse or it will be, or it will go to the to the named beneficiaries for either immediate distribution or to be distributed at some future point or some future event.

Speaker 3

Yeah, the trust document should outline all of those things. So really you just follow the successor trustee just follows what the trust document outlines. So it's somewhat unique in the sense of that person who created the trust. It's specific to what they wanted to happen. But on the other hand it's somewhat standard still that you have your successor, you distribute according to the terms of the trust, you dissolve the trust, you know that kind of those steps.

Speaker 1

And it becomes very important here that the trust agreement state clearly what the intent of the settlor, the one who made the trust, what his or her desire is to occur, to occur and all. And that's if you get a good, seasoned attorney that is, a wordsmith, if you will they're able to state things with greater clarity.

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. What would be the main responsibility for trustees and what mistakes do they often make? So some people kind of look for it, look out for that oh, okay, several this could be a long question.

Speaker 3

It sounds like no, my first thing is and I can't stress this enough keep a good and accurate accounting. Keep your receipts. You know where money goes, where it came from. Make sure that is all crystal clear and don't do what we call self-dealing. Don't give yourself money. Don't do any of that Like don't. No, you are in a fiduciary capacity. You have certain responsibilities that you owe to the beneficiaries in that kind of situation. So it's really important that you're meticulous in your accounting. If you've got trust funds, if there's like actual money in the trust, I would second that you know emphatically.

Speaker 1

The other thing that I find one of the could be a problem area is the naming of who the successor trustee is. It can be a child to understand with significant clarity what the the parents are wanting to occur upon their death, and it's been real interesting. Uh't happen every time, but frequently. You know the parents are sitting here in our office and the dad will say, well, I'd like to have Johnny do this. And I look at the mom and she's looking at her husband like do you think johnny could really do this?

Speaker 3

you learn a lot about the family and and it does.

Speaker 1

It's not necessarily spoken, but you can see from the body language you know who they trust and who they don't trust. Sometimes they trust the eldest, sometimes they trust the youngest. Sometimes they will trust the one who has a college degree and is doing well in business. They'll trust another one that is more empathetic to them. I mean, it's just.

Speaker 3

Sometimes a third party. Sometimes the best option is to not have a family member be the one in charge, and that's okay too. Be realistic with yourself about who is honestly the best option for the purposes of you know if your family's going to fight. Parents usually know if the family's going to fight and who is realistically the best option as well as making who would you know correctly, take note of everything and account properly and all of these things. So it's kind of it's a big responsibility, depending on the trust.

Trustee Responsibilities and Common Mistakes

Speaker 1

And in that line where we know that the parents have indicated to us that a certain child is really going to be litigious, let's say then we're able to draft language into that trust agreement that reduces the risk of litigation. I'm not going to say it will eliminate it, but it will certainly give pause to the person who wants to litigate.

Speaker 3

And I was going to say and tell your attorney tell your attorney if you're anticipating that this is like it's a safe space. We've heard just about everything. You're not going to surprise us and it's going to stay between us. You know it's not something that will be told to the community, but we can only serve you as well as what we know. So tell your attorney. If you sign something stupid, tell your attorney. If you don something stupid, tell your attorney.

Speaker 1

If you don't trust someone to just just say it, tell us and you know, jt, that is something that is very difficult, and I'm going to speak generally here it is very difficult for any individual to be honest with themselves yeah I love that.

Speaker 4

I think you have a really good goal. Nugget there is give the attorney as much information because they could. You know they're giving them. It's not just a boilerplate. A boiler template it's gonna be like okay, we're gonna actually put this based on your current specific needs and potential future problems that arise. One question I would ask can a trustee be personally held liable for errors?

Speaker 1

I would say, yes, it depends. But here again, you can have language in that agreement that releases the trustee of any of those kind of negligent errors. Now then, if he is, do acts of commission or omission? In other words, if he decides I'm going to do this period or I'm just not going to do it, I don't care what mom and dad said, I'm just not going to do it, I'm going to do it this other way, then yes, I think that there is. You can, I think, ultimately pierce that trust veil and have the trustee openly held liable, but that is in most cases, I think, a pretty long stretch.

Speaker 3

Yeah, unless you've breached your fiduciary duty and you and say someone, one of the beneficiaries, starts looking at the accounting and they're like, look, you've been paying yourself this amount of money that's not granted under the trust agreement, whatever it is, then that's a different situation, but yeah so we might make a comment here about fiduciary duty and, to just put it simply, that is looking after some, somebody else for their benefit. Yeah.

Speaker 1

I think if and I'm getting away from the legalese and all that you know if, if a trustee is thinking well, am I going to breach my fiduciary duty? The question is should be. Is my question not, as my action, not going to benefit the name, the beneficiary?

Speaker 4

now, I'd like to next guys give it really in depth there. Uh, this is actually kind of like a question to that point. What are some warning signs that I trust or estate planning may lead to?

Speaker 3

uh, our plans might lead to disputes or challenges down the road if it's ambiguous and you can have like a hundred page trust, and if it's ambiguous, usually the hundred, usually the long trusts are ambiguous, because it's simply overkill. But if it's ambiguous, you're inviting different interpretations and inviting people to fight about what it means.

Speaker 3

So you've got to make sure, and that's one of the reasons, honestly, why online forums are so dangerous because they are and I you know I say that as someone who is a tech native. I grew up doing microsoft word lessons in school, so but they are so dangerous because it's just a form and you don't have someone with the knowledge of this is how the court might interpret it, or these are some ambiguities or whatever it is, and you just fill it in without you know having the adequate language and clarity and that sort of thing. But I would say ambiguity is a huge part that invites litigation, especially for a particularly argumentative family.

Speaker 1

I would like to go. I would like to take a little uh side track here, and that is when it comes to forms that people fill out, whether they get them online, whether they buy them or whatever. I'm thinking of a particular probate that I was involved in. The gentleman had left a will and in the will he cut it. He had four children. He cut two of them out specifically said I don't want these two to have anything. I leave it to these other two. Very next paragraph I leave everything to my descendants. So counterdecks and and see descendants. And that's an ambiguity right there. You know you've cut two of the four out. Now you're leaving everything to the descendants. The descendant goes beyond an heir. An heir is the next person in line bloodline, typically Descendant. We were giving notice to six month old kids, great grandkids because, they are

Speaker 3

a descendant kids, great grandkids, because they are a descendant Right.

Speaker 1

And it was just because he had just filled in the form and the form had descendants. Yeah, Anyway, the other thing, and getting back to your question, JT, one of the ways and this is just a practical way we know that there is maybe an issue is when one of the beneficiaries come in and they make the comment I understand, dad and mom were in here and did a trust. I want a copy yeah no you know mom and dad are our clients. Yeah, what they do days here, here we go.

Speaker 1

In fact, we try to figure out ways to not even acknowledge that the parent, where it, was, in here to do a trust or any other. You know legal services yeah, I could.

Speaker 4

Yeah too. Yeah, that could be open up a can of worms because the people, all the other attorneys, they're like, oh, what assets they have. And if it's not, if it's transparent enough yet the uh, you call the ambulance chaser attorneys that wanted to get Kate, like, get some new clients, like, oh, they have how much real estate? Yeah, I'll take that on. What role does digital asset play now, cause we've been talking to kind of like some online forums what role does digital asset planning now play in estate work? Is it like, is like you're seeing a lot of people, like some of your competitors, other people using online forms, and what are some of the pitfalls and challenges from that, besides what you mentioned? But yeah.

Warning Signs of Future Estate Disputes

Speaker 1

I think one of the pitfalls of using online forms is not understanding the legal concepts and theories behind them. This is not a business where you just fill in the form and think you've got it done. I don't know of any attorney anywhere that doesn't have a set of forms in a given area of his practice his or her practice. The key to it.

Speaker 1

It, though, is that's the beginning point yeah there is no need to reinvent the wheel when the wheel's out there. The question is do you expand the wheel or what you know you?

Speaker 3

you tailor it to the specific needs of the client and that takes time and it could look like a totally new document. You could start with one I don't know some random quitclaim deed and then by the end it could look like essentially a different document because you've done so many different changes to make sure it fits what the client wants and that it actually can do what it's trying to do. And so when people try to do it themselves, they'll leave off, say, keep the quitclaim deed example. You can get quitclaim deeds online easily. You can get them from county clerks, whatever.

Speaker 3

But if you write the legal description wrong, if you don't have it incorrectly, then you could be looking at a quiet title which is thousands of dollars. You could be looking at an invalid conveyance because it wasn't as sufficiently particular, you know. So it's really a matter of knowing the theories behind. It allows you to make sure that the documents are actually doing what you want them to do. So there's that element of um. The law in the digital age, I guess, is kind of the idea but, then.

Speaker 3

So the I I had a few different thoughts with your question, but were you asking more about how is digital media and and sort of things impacted the practice, or are you talking about digital assets?

Speaker 4

I got those mixed up uh, at your first point, to the act, your project, because, yeah, everything's going digital.

Speaker 3

So okay, yeah, um, that was something in law school I took like a legal entrepreneurship class, and we talked about a lot of different things and about different ways to meet client and consumer needs within the digital realm. Do you offer digital packages that you can download? But the thing is, is that attorneys are held to a professional standard too? So we open ourselves up to danger if we're just saying, oh yeah, download this digital package, it'll do what you want it to do, because I can't guarantee that it will do what you want it to do if you don't fill it in correctly. But my name's on it. You know what I mean. So there's that element as well. And, of course, we want our clients to get the best possible documents and the best possible results that we could achieve if we can. So it's kind of I don't know of any attorneys in town that offer forms like that or digital sorts of things, just because everything is tailored to the situation. What do you think?

Speaker 4

not great, yeah. So basically I get the lead in and then you have to get them on the conversation, in person or on the phone, to actually find out their exact needs. Because you're also a lawyer, you want to be in like a. You know the US is very litigious, so you don't say, hey, we'll solve this without actually finding out what their case is.

Speaker 3

Yeah, we get calls all the time of people saying, well, what's a base estate plan cost? And it's like I would love to talk to you about what you would even need. Let's sit down and talk so I can tell you these tools will help accomplish your goal, and then we can talk about these tools typically cost this much.

Speaker 1

I want to take a little sidebar on this. When people call and say say, how much do you charge for a given doc, what's your hourly rate? You know? Uh, I could tell you what my hourly rate is it's not gonna solve their issue. Yeah no, it's not gonna solve their issue and they're gonna like talk.

Speaker 4

You're asking what their hourly rate is, but the other thing, though, jt is, you can.

Speaker 1

They can go to an attorney that charges, say, $200 an hour and that attorney takes 10 hours to do the work, so that's $2,000. They could go to an attorney that charges $300 an hour. He sounds more expensive. Yes, by the hour he is, but he gets it done in three hours.

How Proper Planning Makes a Difference

Speaker 4

Yeah, which one is the more expensive Pay for value and add time yeah exactly it's just oh yeah anyway, and what I have found is I'm a business, so it's always about paying for value and expertise and time back. It's not about who's the cheapest, who would give me those results and what serves me best without names. Could you share a memorable case where proper planning made all the difference in the world?

Speaker 3

Oh, okay, give me a second to think when proper planning made all the difference in the world.

Speaker 4

Like estate planning or even business planning. You want to use the business or real estate planning. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1

Well, there is one that actually goes back many years ago. Dad had done a. His clients had come in, they owned 1,000, 1,500 acres of land and they had decided that they were going to leave everything to their youngest daughter. They had become estranged from their son and eldest daughter and they decided that they were going to leave, like, say everything to the youngest daughter and reserve to themselves the life estate. Fifteen years later, let's move the clock, the present the Sun comes in and he says my, you know, I'm entitled to that 1500 acres. And I shook his head, said no, I don't think so. He said my parents, my parents, had no business and were not in their right mind leaving it to my youngest sister period. And I posed the question to him what were your parents like 15 years earlier?

Speaker 4

Did they know what they were doing?

Speaker 1

Oh, dad knew exactly what he was doing. He was good, he knew how to farm, he could get the best out of the land. Mom was great. Da, da, da, da da. They knew exactly what they were doing and I said, sir, sir, here's the document. You'll notice the date was 15 years ago. You just told me they knew exactly what they were doing. Here's where they left it to your younger sister. You're out of luck, it's. He left. He was no another word was said, but the parents' wishes were properly followed. The youngest daughter got the land, but she also had taken care of him for 15 years.

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah, those are perfect segue. So how can people make conversations about estate planning less awkward with family members, so like situations like this don't even happen?

Speaker 3

basically, uh, every family is so different and every family structure is different. Every and you know, every family is dysfunctional in its own way. The longer I'm in this business, the more I will stand on that. Everybody has their things, so it's hard to say that there's like a one size fits all for what makes things awkward versus not. But I think ultimately it will never get better if you don't talk about it. So you don't have to talk about it all at once, even just, you know, approaching that topic and kind of sussing it out, seeing how your family interacts with it, and then you can come back to it at a later date. Whatever it is, I would just say don't make assumptions about family and how it's going to go or anything. And if you want to talk about it with your family, your family is not entitled to know it either. So if it's something you don't want to talk about, you don't have to.

Speaker 4

But if you want to, it will never get less awkward if you don't just start the conversation. Does that kind of yeah, no, yeah, it's uh. Families, yeah, families always have the biggest. When money becomes involved, things change, they're friendly.

Speaker 1

There's mama and papa die, true colors are shown and what's interesting there? And I'm and I'm going to uh delve off into a situation where I've had clients in that do not want to tell their children what's going on yeah and that creates discord among the kids upon the death of both parents. And what's worse is I've had, I can think of two or three over over the many years where one parent has told one child one thing and told another child another thing and told the third child of something else.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's their neighbor child and it and it's, and and I see that they are having a very difficult time reconciling it. Yeah, number three, upon the death of a parent. In fact, I don't think it gets reconciled at times. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Growing Your Law Practice Authentically

Speaker 4

That's the biggest issue, like, I think, with the state planning is figuring out. Everything is divided and keeping emotions at bay and people knowing what they're going to get ahead of time so that issues like this don't evolve. If someone's listening and we always talk about Sal from Top Attorneys of North America and I think this is a great conversation, because in law school both of you guys, as you know they don't really talk about how to grow your practice what are some tips of some lawyers listening to this? If there's lawyers listening to this, what would be some tips they need to do to grow their practice how to get clients and how do you grow your business.

Speaker 1

I would say, and I'm going to go back to, I will tell you how my dad did it back in 1948. I will tell you how my dad did it back in 1948. And that is he became involved in local politics, ran for county attorney, was successful in the election and after two years his name was was well known throughout Pottawatomie County and then after that, he became involved in a local civic organization it's Qantas Club, shawnee. When I came in one of, I think one of the key things is getting your name out and let people know that you are practicing law that one is practicing. And what I did? I became active in the. And what I did? I became active in the community theater. Now then, the one who encouraged me happened to be my debate coach from middle school. She said I want you to come out here, you need to get involved.

Speaker 1

One would not think being involved in a community theater would be beneficial to the practice of law, but what was helpful is knowing and being able to read your audience. Who do you quote play to? Who do you look at? How do you present yourself? What's the lighting like, all that sort of stuff. I mean, you know, uh, oh, my goodness, I just had several stories come to the back of my mind, but we won't delve off into that. But the other thing is is being active in a civic organization. And when I say active, don't be just a member, get, get, jump in with your feet, get wet If they're like here. The Shawnee Kiwanis Club looks after youth. We do, you know, like Little Olympics. We've done it now for 93 years running. We help kids at Christmas, we give scholarships.

Speaker 3

I mean, we're working with other leaders in the community and that's where business comes from yeah, I think involvement in the community, even if even if you don't choose to do a civic organization, though that is incredibly helpful because you make a lot of connections every week um, but finding some way to be plugged into your community, whether that's through a civic organization, through a book club, through a church, through some other type of volunteering effort, just being involved with the people around you and finding ways to engage in the community is, I would say, the most most critical piece and don't be afraid, when they start asking questions, to give them a straight answer.

Speaker 1

I mean, it's not uncommon for for people to ask me about a question or something about well, how you know, I've got some property out here, how would be the best way to get that to my kids? And so you know I don't charge for that. I just tell them this is what you need to do. I'll tell you what, roger, we'll come in. Let's just make it important to come in and we can discuss this further. Hey, that's great. Yeah, and they do and we do. Yeah.

Speaker 4

No, I love that. I sat on different charity boards in Chicago for years Homeless dogs, battered women, abused children and then also kids trying to get scholarships to go to culinary. So I've did the help with different organizations, with their marketing and exposure. So, yeah, I totally agree with that. It's a great way to get trust and also you're giving back. At the same time, you're building relationships, you're out in the community. People see you as somebody gives back, helps and has evolved and you know helping the community as it comes back to you in different ways maybe not immediately, but like and also you're helping people. That's all it comes down to absolutely jt.

Speaker 1

That's the paradox of it is by helping other people, ones of business will grow.

Speaker 3

And this is fundamentally a service profession, you know.

Speaker 4

Start others first.

Speaker 3

Absolutely.

Speaker 4

Value first. Take other people first and with no expectation, and then it comes back to the right people align with you. So, yeah, 100% agree with that. As we wrap this up, you guys have been amazing. What would be the best way for people to find more about you, like your website or email or any information you want to provide?

Speaker 3

yeah, we do have a website, uh, j roger henson plc. If you just search that and shawnee oklahoma, uh, the website will come on up and then, um, you'll be able to find our contact information on there, and I would say that's probably the best way for people to reach us is find the website. Give us a call right.

Speaker 4

What's your number? Do you want to put the number in? I think you plug it in 405-273-8558 perfect. Thank you guys, so much for being a council commentary thanks, jt.

Speaker 3

Thank you appreciate it appreciate you.

Speaker 4

Thank you, hey, it's jonathan. Make sure to download. Listen weekly as I bring the top lawyer guests sharing their best insights, providing exclusive resources and most actionable advice. Finally, I get a lot of people asking me to help them one-on-one. Yes, I can, but it's very limited. Go to revenueascendcom for lawyer, google Ads, seo and CMO consulting For commercial real estate investing. Go to midwestParkCapitalcom and those looking to invest in service-based business roll-ups go to BusinessCashOutcom. And finally, get Podcast Bookings, a top podcast guesting tour agency. All links are included below. Please like, comment and share this podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening.

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Jonathan Tuttle

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