Voices in Health and Wellness

How Exposure, Creativity, And Compassion Rewire Anxiety with Jonny Baker

• Dr Andrew Greenland • Season 1 • Episode 51

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The gap between fear and freedom is often smaller than it feels. We sit down with therapist and coach Jonny Baker to unpack how integrative hypnotherapy, NLP, guided meditation, and psychotherapy principles combine to help people move from spirals of anxiety into steadier, more connected lives. Johnny’s route from art school to hypnosis shaped a practice that prizes imagination, pacing, and relationship over rigid protocols, and his approach shows why creativity is not a luxury in therapy—it is a lever for change.

We dig into health anxiety and death anxiety, two themes that quietly dominate many lives, and explore how graded exposure can be applied not just to spiders or lifts, but to intrusive thoughts, bodily sensations, and long-held fears. Jonny explains how to titrate discomfort, expand tolerance without white-knuckling, and keep agency with the client at every step. Working fully online from Milan, he highlights the surprising strengths of video therapy, the role of meditations in between sessions, and the practical realities of growing a practice when geography blurs.

The conversation zooms out to the wider wellness landscape: social media stress, algorithmic polarisation, and why so many minds feel overclocked. Johnny references Ian McGilchrist’s hemispheric model to argue for a shift toward right-brain leadership—connection, nuance, and process—so goals live alongside presence. We also get candid about the business: how to niche without narrowing your humanity, why simple messages beat clever ones, and how periodic case analysis can sharpen clinical craft. If you’re navigating anxiety, building a therapy practice, or just craving a more whole-brain way to live, this one offers practical steps and a calmer frame to think within.

If the conversation resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it today, and leave a review to help more people find thoughtful mental health conversations.

👤 Guest Biography

Jonny Baker is an integrative therapist and coach who runs Change Feels Good, a practice blending hypnotherapy, NLP, coaching, and meditation. With a creative background and nearly two decades of clinical experience, Jonny helps clients rewire anxiety through a practical, compassionate approach grounded in neuroscience and behavioural change. He works primarily online with adults seeking transformation through emotional clarity, exposure work, and deep therapeutic connection.

Social Media Handles:

  • Website: https://changefeelsgood.com
  • Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonnybaker/
  • Instagram:
About Dr Andrew Greenland

Dr Andrew Greenland is a UK-based medical doctor and founder of Greenland Medical, specialising in Integrative and Functional Medicine. Drawing on dual training in conventional and root-cause medicine, he helps individuals optimise their health, performance, and longevity — with a particular interest in cognitive resilience and healthy ageing.

Voices in Health and Wellness explores meaningful conversations at the intersection of medicine, lifestyle, and human potential — featuring clinicians, scientists, and thinkers shaping the future of healthcare.

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Dr Andrew Greenland:

Welcome back to Voices in Health and Wellness. This is the podcast where we sit down with forward-thinking practitioners, coaches, and clinicians to explore what's really shaping the future of well-being from the inside out. Today I'm joined by Jonny Baker, a therapist, coach, and integrative practitioner whose work lives at the intersection of mental health, neuroscience, and lasting behavioural change. Johnny runs Change Feels Good, a practice that blends integrative hypnotherapy, coaching, guided meditation, and training for mental well-being. His approach is rooted in deep psychological insight, but delivered in a way that feels practical, accessible, and grounded in real-world transformation. Jonny, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon.

Jonny Baker:

Thank you very much. What an introduction. Wow.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

No worries. Hopefully it was accurate.

Jonny Baker:

Oh yeah, I mean it was uh it was way better than I could have put it. Yeah, right.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Maybe we can start at the top. Could you perhaps talk a little bit about your journey and how you've ended up doing what you do?

Jonny Baker:

Sure. So um about 19 years ago, I was so I I initially did uh I went to art college and did lots of art and got into perception and stuff, and then and off the back of that, I thought I don't want to be uh a graphic designer, which is what I was headed towards. Um I was really interested in hypnosis, so I immediately sort of enrolled on a hypnotherapy course. Um, well, not just hypnosis, but helping people as well, um, hence hypnotherapy rather than just stage hypnosis or something like that. And um then through that I got into neurolinguistic programming um and thought, oh, this is really an interesting way of expanding some of the principles of hypnosis into uh many different areas, uh, including you know the conversation, more being more conversational, so obviously sort of taking Eric Sony in hypnosis uh to you know, not in another direction, but maybe extending some of the work that he did. Um and uh and yeah, and applying it to things that other things I was interested in doing, like training, training people, um you know being on being on stage as it were is uh you know a really interesting application of NLP, and it's since kind of made its way into so many different areas, really interesting. And then I started practicing, um and that was so I I that was in Kent, sort of where I grew up, uh East Kent, and um did that for many years and really just immediately knew that I'd found my calling, and this is I just got a hell of a lot from working with clients and and was very fortunate, very pleased that uh I was getting some good results with them as well. And um yeah, if we come up to around 2021, so the lockdowns, COVID lockdowns had sort of more or less passed, but through that process, obviously I got used to working online. Uh I hadn't done a little bit of online work before then, but obviously all my work went online, and um at that point I was living in London with my wife, and um we thought, okay, she's Italian, and um that gave us the opportunity of getting out of London. Not that it's a bad place because we loved living there, but it is an expensive place, and we moved to Milan, and um and I just sort of this this is where I am now and um just sort of continued from there. Um I'm not in a prison cell, although it might look like I am. We've just literally moved house and uh we haven't really got anything, as you can see, on the walls, um, but still in the Milan area, yeah, still working online. Um, and I work with UK clients. Something I really uh I did research, but I didn't fully anticipate is the fact that I now I'm sort of I can only work online. I can't I I can't work as a hypnotherapist with clients in Italy, although I can do training work and I can do coaching. Um so I'm for that reason I'm I've now enrolled, I've been doing this course a couple of years now. Um, I'm doing uh a course that will up level my qualification so I can begin so I can work as a psychotherapist. Because in Europe you have to be a psychotherapist to be a hypnotherapist. Interesting. So it's it's great. I mean, you know, obviously I'm doing it as a means to an end, but it's just a wonderful opportunity for me to um to learn more, to grow as a practitioner, as a person, and I'm really enjoying it. I'm getting a lot out of it, and uh and it's sort of you know what I've learnt already is already I'm beginning to apply some of the principles, and and I'm definitely beginning to see that how you know, give names to to some of the things that I'd developed over the years because obviously I'd learnt hypnotherapy, but from practicing with clients so much, I'd sort of learned my own methods and my own approaches, and and I'm beginning to see kind of oh okay, so there's there's a little bit of well, there's a lot of person-centered work in the stuff I'm doing here, there's a lot of uh gestalt here, and there's um um schema therapy here or there, and and Adlerian approaching approaches in in other things that I do. So that brings me up to now and kind of what I'm doing here, basically.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Really helpful to hear the inspiration in the background for and the journey as to how you've got what you're doing. So, how would you describe the kind of transformation your clients are usually seeking when they come to see you?

Jonny Baker:

Well, I have um so most of my clients are people of anxiety, you know, most of my clients have anxiety, want to work with anxiety, and within that category is a subcategory of health anxiety and death anxiety. And I'm not really sure. I I think it's I started to notice that I was getting more clients of that with with those kind of issues, and also my interest in in those areas was was beginning to grow as well. So I'm not sure how it happened, but it did begin to happen, and then I thought I can focus on this niche, and uh, and then of course, that you know, I'm getting more and more clients with with these kind of issues coming up uh as well. Um and and yes, and I'm beginning to sort of, you know, there's I forgot to mention transpersonal therapy, which is something that I'm I'm becoming more and more interested in as well. Uh and exposure therapy, um, which I suppose is is a is an approach that fits into many other different approaches, but um it's traditionally used for phobias. Um, you know, if say for example, someone has a phobia of spiders, then you might begin by just talking about spiders a little bit, and maybe you can help someone picture a spider in their mind, and very gradually you can you know look at a book, look at a drawing or draw a picture of one, or um watch a video, uh, and then you know build up to the point where you're holding one in your hand, for example. Um, so it's really a very simple process of whatever it is that brings up a sense of fear or discomfort in you, just having a relationship with that, whatever it may be, um, whether it's a physical object or a physical life form, uh, or if it's a um a thought or a feeling, uh, you know, it's it's the same principle, and and I find it very effective just applying that principle to whatever it is that people are anxious about. Um, and sometimes that could be you know uh death, it could be um it could be a a relationship they're having with you know, a difficult relationship with someone, it could be um the the sense that maybe as a child they they didn't really receive the attention or affection that they needed, uh, or they were they had a sense of abandonment, um, and just getting familiar with and having a having contact with with those kind of emotions that are that are difficult and uncomfortable. Uh obviously, again, at the rate and speed that they are capable of processing it um and no no quicker than that. So it can take time and it can be quick, but that's tends to be that's one of the main ways that I work with people anyway. There are many different ways, but yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Thank you. And um, what does a typical day or week look like at the moment? Are you mostly client-facing, or how are you balancing the kind of the behind-the-scenes stuff that you have to do in terms of you know marketing and the the business things of running this kind of clinic?

Jonny Baker:

So that's a great question, and it varies from week to week. Um so I have this course that I'm doing, and um uh sometimes that you know there might be weeks where I'm doing, I guess, 60 or 70 percent of my work is is the course, um, and others where it's maybe nothing actually, uh, depending on what's what's up, what what's necessary. Um apart from that, I I will be seeing clients, I guess, between one and six per day. Um and the rest of the time is marketing, is um writing notes, strategizing things like that. Um yeah, so that gives you a kind of a rough idea of of my balance in that respect. Um I I have until recently, I suppose, I've been a very reluctant marketer, which is uh not very helpful. Um but it is, you know, I accept, I have accepted that it's something that is as necessary, and uh I've begun to actually enjoy some of it as well. Uh I've tried a lot of different things, and a lot of different things have just seemed to have absolutely no effect at all. Um but what I have found to be effective is is me in a way. Um simple messages are obviously very effective, but because of what I do, it's such the therapeutic relationship is such an important thing that people need to understand what it's like to have a conversation with me that's it's not an everyday conversation. You wouldn't probably even talk about these things with your family or friends um often. So I think people need to um need to have a kind of impression of who I am and how I come across. So videos um have worked better, audio recordings. I've got quite a lot of um meditations that have been really helpful in in my marketing. So they're they're great standalone meditations, people enjoy them, and that's sort of I I do get a very small income from that as well on Insight Timer, for example. That's mainly where most of them are. Um, but it also gives me the option, so it also sends a few clients my way as well for one-to-one work. Um, and again, doing um live streams. So I was doing quite a lot of live streams, particularly on Instra Insight Timer, and they were they were really effective, they were working really well. Maybe I'll do a podcast at some point as well. Who knows?

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Well, yeah, you're very welcome to use this one for local promotion. I always think that podcasts are a good business card for what people do, because it's basically it's a very natural conversation. You're talking about your work and you're prioritizing your approach. So I think that always makes for very good marketing, and very happy for you to have this one afterwards if that's helpful.

Jonny Baker:

That's very helpful. Thank you so much.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Are you seeing any um shifts in the kinds of people that are reaching out to you? I know you've mentioned the kind the focus of the problems that you're dealing with, but uh what is there anything about the kinds of people that are reaching out?

Jonny Baker:

That's a good question. So there is um simply through doing this psychotherapy course, I have had to shame who I'm working with. So I used to work with uh a reasonable amount of children and young people, but mainly adolescents, um, and I can't do that anymore. Not with not through hypnotherapy anyway, uh, or psychotherapy. So simply through necessity, I'm only working with adults now from now on, in that with that hat on, with my therapy hat on. Um so but I I don't know really if there's a if there's a type, I suppose most of my clients tend to be between 20 and and 40. I know that's quite a big range, but and most tend to be female, but I'm not sure if that's because females tend to be more ready to talk about their emotions. Um, and that's really my you know an important part of what I do. Uh, although you know it's it would be probably better if if men did that more. Um at the moment, at least, it's it's mainly women who who do that, and I don't know why. I don't know why. I know that you know a lot of the people that I do work with are um through word of mouth, through recommendation. Um but yeah, it's it's a very difficult thing to put my finger on, really. But um yeah, I say relatively young people um who I say maybe like 70% female to 30% male, um who have anxiety, and that could be students, um young professionals. I have to say, actually, thinking about it now, like there are they do tend to be slightly more creative people, and that could be because some of my um there are certain people I've worked with who are just an absolute godsend in terms of of marketing because they are really uh having a lot of conversations with with people they meet and recommending me, and I'm just eternally grateful to those people. Um and uh and I maybe because of the a few of those people who who tend to do that are creative people work in creative industries that I tend to be getting more creative people coming my way, or because some of the work, particularly the more particularly hypnosis, hypnosis works better if you're creative, um NLP works better if you're creative, any kind of visualizing internal representations, these things, you know, you can I definitely work in other ways for people who who are not in that, you know, don't have that strength, but yeah, so it could be that as well. But I certainly enjoy, you know, I I I think I'm as a creative person myself. I I think yeah, there's something there. There's a there's a playfulness that that can that we can we can work through. And that's not to say that people who aren't naturally creative can't become more creative as well, but some people just just are, and uh and it there seems to be a synergy there.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Yeah. Thank you. So we're talking about the the people, but if you notice any shifts across the health and wellness space more generally, obviously you sit with your particular niche in the health and wellness space, but what are your observations about the health and wellness space more broadly?

Jonny Baker:

I think it's I think therapy is therapy is more accepted, which is a which is a good thing. Um across the genders actually. Um it's yeah. I'm not sure I'm not sure why exactly, but um it's uh I think yeah, all sorts of things. It's it's it's in, you know, it's in the media. There are, I think there's T there's a TV show that people keep talking about that I still haven't watched actually, um, that follows uh people through therapy. Um and I understand that's kind of brought a few people into into the area that wouldn't otherwise be interested in it. Famous people talk about having therapy quite a lot, so certainly that's a big plus. Um and there are a lot of people who need it, you know. There's the world is such a strange place for the ever since COVID, it's it seems to me to have uh to very much um, and I'm not sure how it's shifted exactly, but um there's uh there's you know, there's obviously there's social media, there's uh mobile phones, there's all sorts of things, and you know, I think everybody's familiar with the effects that these things can have. I like it too. So I live in Italy, and and um Italian people are just really warm and welcoming and lovely people, but once you get in a car, it all changes, and yeah, and it's uh it's a dog eat dog world out there on the road, and uh and kind of dangerous as well. Uh, you've got to be really have your wits around about you and and expect that no one will give you any space, and yeah, so it's it's really uh it brings out the worst in people. Having that distance of being in a car and people having that anonymity kind of brings out something, uh let's say like a monster in people, and the same thing happens when you're online. Um, you know, you can hide behind a persona, um, you can hide behind your phone, and you can be rude, you can be uh angry, you can be all of these things that we keep a lid on when we're with people in person. So so yeah, and obviously that that has this effect on on people, and and that that changes the landscape of the kind of people, the kind of problems that people have that come to therapy, and the kind of people that come to therapy as well. Um so we've got that to deal with, and then there's you know, the uh the the polarism um that's let's say partially informed by algorithms and who knows what forces, but uh you know, there's it seems to be ramping up uh incrementally, and uh that is not good for our mental health. It has our amygdala constantly active, constantly firing, and uh not constantly, but you know, to a greater extent is is hijacking the rest of our attention, and um and it um yeah, it makes it make you know it raises our cortisol and uh and and that has a huge impact mentally and physically. Um so so there's a great need for both what you and I do, I think. Uh there's a big crossover there, and I'm reminded of um you know someone uh the work of um Ian McGilchrist who I really respect, and it's his approach really applies to many other psychotherapeutic approaches as well. The idea that the world is the the mentality of people is uh is progressively becoming more and more left-brained, um, which has to do with categorization, um differences, um reducing um concepts to things that are very maybe simple and uh easy to understand, but but uh doesn't communicate nuance and connection. So the right brain is more about connection, more about the whole, understanding the whole of whatever it is that you're understanding, whether it's a person, whether it's a society, um, whether it's a concept, um and and relationality. And I think that's a really important aspect of it, you know, the connectedness. It's also to do with becoming rather than an end result as well. And I think a lot of people come to see me and they're like, What I want this end result, and very much focused on on where they want to get to, which is great, and we should always have that, but living life for the process of living life for the journey of living it is it brings us the most happiness and fulfillment, and also helps us to relax and helps us to approach life in uh a better way, generally, and that that is more of a right-brained activity. So his his his what he's saying is not that you should just have half of your brain working, it it should be led by the right brain, by that wholeness, and the left brain is much happier when it's following up and it's performing tasks that are informed by right brain uh activity, let's say. That's a real yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, do some. There's a really good podcast with interviews with him. Um, if you want to learn more, Ian McGillchrist or read his books. Um, but anyway, yes, I think I I went off a bit of tangent there. I'm not quite sure what the question was, but hopefully that answers the question.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

It's all good. No, thank you. And you mentioned some some trends, and you mentioned specifically things like social media and mental health awareness. Um, is those things changing how you do what you do? Obviously, it affects the people that are showing up to you and what they've been exposed to, but have you had to adapt to these kind of trends that you're seeing?

Jonny Baker:

Uh yes, well, certainly, you know, working online, uh, you know, uh video calls a little like this, that's I've had to adapt to that. It hasn't been too difficult. It's something that you know research shows that it's equally as effective to work in this way than it is as it is in person. Um, there are some things that may be more effective because it's sort of more widely acceptable to be face to face, to sort of be really close so you can see people's faces, facial expressions, understand emotion perhaps in a better way than you might be able to if you're in a room with them in some ways, but you don't have the body language, so there's a trade-off there, I guess. Yeah, so I've so adapting to that and um and then adapting to marketing social media through social media. Um it's like I say, I'm not really an expert in that, and it's not my my greatest passion. Um, but uh you know, I I sort of I love what I do, but and I I love what I do really, and my my passion isn't in um shouting about it. Um but obviously you know it's a necessity, so I I've got used to it. But it's um it's difficult to um in that area, it's difficult to to be heard, to be seen. Because I'm I'm working also because I'm working online, I don't really have a geographical location. Um so most people who do what I do work in an area, they work with local clients in that area. Um and a lot of the um directories that people would search for therapists are kind of geared towards that. Um and even social media is geared towards that as well, Google Maps um geared towards that. So it's it is a little bit of a that's a bit of an open question for me at the moment about how I, you know, I I haven't really fully grasped how to to make that work better, but I'm I'm trying various different things. I'm just doing the same things that I was doing before. Um but uh I think it's and I actually I most of my clients do come from uh East Kent, where I was based, and and London, um, simply because that's where my geographical location was. Um but it so even even though I am kind of floating and I can work with anyone, uh certainly in the UK, but in other places in the world, some places in the world, depending on the on the law, um I am still kind of rooted to Southeast England in a way. Um and that's fine, that's okay. Um but yeah, so it's it's uh it's a work in progress, I guess. Um it's uh I haven't got into TikTok. I know that you know things are getting shorter and shorter and shorter, videos and stuff. Um but also longer and longer and longer because people like podcasts, don't they? So um I I think I'm down with the longer stuff more than the shorter stuff, really. Um that's my cup of tea, uh, I would say. So I veer towards that. Um but who knows, maybe there's there's scope there for um for some I don't know, some dancing videos or something.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Yeah. Okay. Um so obviously you are running a business, um, thinking of it as a business, what's going really well for you right now?

Jonny Baker:

Um, it is my work with clients that's going really well for me. I think you know, this the the course that I'm doing and applying the principles into that. I've recently done a case study which um I've very meticulously analysed what I'm doing in the sessions and and how the conversations are going, the impact that it's having, which I wouldn't normally do, and I don't think is a good idea to do consistently. Um and there's not time to do that. But doing it with a client, um, obviously they've given their consent for me to to uh you know to record because I had to record a couple of the sessions and uh and uh pick it all apart. Um that's really helped me a lot actually. And um recording, listening to what you do is uh there's so much more that I I had never realized that I was doing things that you know are not helpful that I've realized and I've I've changed, and other things that are helpful that I've expanded on, and and ways I've I've realized that I can integrate different approaches that I that would not have not have occurred to me as well. So it's a very helpful. uh exercise and and I would say that's the thing that's working the best for me at the moment. Yeah. Although I'm kind of I I've got a chunk, so a chunk of this course that I'm doing at the moment and I'm really looking forward to getting back into to marketing. I've got a few more ideas about that and I want to uh to push forward with that as well because I've had to leave it to the wayside in in favour of my uh psychotherapy course for a little while. Yeah. And on the flip side is there anything that's been particularly frustrating feels harder than it needs to or any um challenges you've had to overcome in doing your work recently um yeah and I think I think it's simply yeah I mean I suppose taking a a hard look at myself and being critical of what I do in that um case study has been difficult but you know it's always it's always the the game of uh marketing for me it always has been uh I wouldn't want to uh predict my future but that has been the hardest thing and it's always been the hardest thing I have to say I have to be honest uh for me I think um I think I know what works now but uh it's finding the time to to make that happen integrating it into into my week and uh and doing enough of it um so that it gains more momentum um so yeah that those are the my current challenges at the moment um I'm thinking about if you had for instance a sudden influx of clients from the Kent region tomorrow um what part of the business would break first and hopefully it won't be you when you say break do do you mean like collapse like fall apart?

Dr Andrew Greenland:

What would be the weakest point of the system if you know if you had 50 enrollments who who knows there maybe maybe thousands of people listening to this podcast if they all telephone you tomorrow and say I want to come and see you what would happen?

Jonny Baker:

What a wonderful problem to have um I simply wouldn't have the time to to schedule it all um to I have a yeah I mean I have on my website well I linked on my website there's uh I use a calendar um booking app so I suppose they could do that um I generally give well I do always give people a um um like an initial inquiry introduction thing um and that I might be pushed for time to do that I think I'd have to be really a lot more strict with uh with with that like over over sometimes I have a I give uh a little bit more time uh than I'm than I'm meant to in my sessions and I'd have to be a bit more on point with that I think I think I just need to hire someone to to manage the inquiries more than anything else. Yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

And if you were to um start from scratch tomorrow obviously you've been on a long journey of discovery and learning um is there anything that you would do differently if you could if you were going to start again tomorrow with everything that you know from before?

Jonny Baker:

Well assuming I knew what my niche would be I would immediately focus on a very uh narrow message in terms of this is what I do um talking directly to the people that are looking for my kind of help uh uh it's although it does take a while to to understand what that can be you know you do have to kind of work for a while before you really get that um and um yeah so I would do that uh I would be I think a lot more focused in in um I would apply that to everything in building my website and into the uh the um blogging social media posts videos uh meditations um and not be distracted so I do have uh tended to get distracted in terms of I'm really interested in this and I want to talk about this and and all you know and that's cool uh I think we should all do that to a certain extent but maybe like 20 30 percent of the rest of it should be this is the message this is who needs to hear it um repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat I would do that um and um I'm still trying to do that yeah and where are you looking to take things over the next six to twelve months or so with your business I um I'm simply I simply want to work with more clients um and because I just love it I love what I do you know that there's still space for you know creating meditations and I think that's actually that can really that's something that I I recommend to my clients as well um you know in between sessions listen to this meditation or that meditation um I enjoy that because I kind of make the music and everything and I produce it myself um and training I do like um working with a a group of people a large group of people and applying the same principles and giving people a taster of what I do to the extent that it's possible in an environment like that um so yeah and this kind of thing as well you know um live streams or podcasts um so a bit of everything but mainly one-to-one sitting and really connecting and really understanding people and really helping them to process difficult things and come out the other side smelling of roses on that note johnny thank you so much for your time this afternoon it's been really interesting hearing about you and your work and your development and where you're take looking to take your business so thank you so much for your time really really appreciate it. Thank you so much Andrew um thank you for reaching out it's been uh yeah it's been really nice uh you're you're great at interviewing it's um it's really easy to talk to you so thank you very much thank you thank you very much