Voices in Health and Wellness

Sleep Without The Quick Fix with Emma Gawne

• Dr Andrew Greenland • Season 1 • Episode 52

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Sleep shouldn’t demand that parents ignore their instincts. We sit down with Emma Gawne, a certified sleep coach and founder of Help Baby Sleep, to unpack a humane, evidence-based approach that respects infant biology, attachment, and the realities of family life. Emma’s personal journey through poor guidance and postnatal depression led her to build a model that moves beyond quick fixes and one-size-fits-all programmes, offering nuanced support that helps families find rest, rhythm, and confidence.

Across our conversation, Emma explains why “biological best” sleep doesn’t always mean long, uninterrupted stretches—and why easy night feeds and calm resettles matter more than chasing milestones. We dive into the airway–sleep connection, a crucial yet under-discussed factor in infant rest. Mouth breathing, snoring, reflux symptoms, and feeding challenges can signal upstream issues that fragment sleep; Emma collaborates with ENTs, paediatric dentists, lactation consultants, and paediatric osteopaths to address root causes. She also shares how parental nervous system regulation shapes a baby’s ability to settle, and why co-regulation beats rigid tactics when everyone is exhausted.

We explore changing parenting culture—more fathers on shared parental leave, less appetite for cry-it-out—while naming a persistent mismatch: expectations still mirror sleep training goals. Emma offers practical ways to make nights sustainable without abandoning responsiveness, from timing tweaks to sensory profiles and feeding nuances, and reflects on the realities of marketing in a world that rewards quick promises. If you’ve “tried everything,” this conversation reframes the problem and shows how tailored, collaborative care creates lasting change.

If this resonates, subscribe, share with a tired friend, and leave a review—tell us the biggest sleep myth you want debunked next.

👤 Guest Biography

Emma Gawne is a certified holistic sleep coach and founder of Help Baby Sleep, a UK-based practice offering evidence-based, attachment-focused sleep support for families. Drawing from a personal journey through postnatal depression and a professional background shaped by neuroscience, Emma helps parents build confidence, find rest, and make sustainable sleep choices that align with their baby’s developmental needs. Her work centers on education, emotional attunement, and empowering families without resorting to quick fixes or rigid sleep training.

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About Dr Andrew Greenland

Dr Andrew Greenland is a UK-based medical doctor and founder of Greenland Medical, specialising in Integrative and Functional Medicine. Drawing on dual training in conventional and root-cause medicine, he helps individuals optimise their health, performance, and longevity — with a particular interest in cognitive resilience and healthy ageing.

Voices in Health and Wellness explores meaningful conversations at the intersection of medicine, lifestyle, and human potential — featuring clinicians, scientists, and thinkers shaping the future of healthcare.

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Dr Andrew Greenland:

So my guest today is Emma Gawne, a certified speak coach and the founder of Help Baby Speak, a UK-based practice that offers tailored evidence-based support to help adopted families find rest, rhythm, and confidence in their parenting journey. Welcome to the show and thank you very much for your time this afternoon.

Emma Gawne:

Thank you so much for having me. And I'm excited to be here. So thanks, Andrew.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

No, you're very welcome. So maybe we can start at the top. Could you perhaps tell us a little bit about what inspired you to step into sleep coaching specifically?

Emma Gawne:

Yeah, no, absolutely. So we have to rewind. Probably now coming up to yeah, 11 years, and when I had my first child, my son. And I think you know, I'm grateful actually, in the sense that we didn't have the plethora of information that we have today, you know, with Instagram and the internet. And actually for me, it was more being thrown lots of different books with lots of different kinds of information, tips, suggestions, etc., that really contradicted one another, but also as a new parent, um, really went against my gut instinct and what I thought I should be doing in terms of sleep and how I thought I should be supporting my son. Um, and so for me it's actually a really personal one because I had some guidance. I'm not going to name any names, but it really wasn't the right guidance. And I know now, you know, having spent the last nine years practicing as a holistic sleep coach, but it really went against everything my son needed. Um, and as a result, I ended up doing things that I felt very, very uncomfortable with. And I ended up with quite severe postnatal depression. And I'm not saying that the two I directly link, but it definitely, you know, the advice I was given definitely didn't help in terms of my own mental health. Um, anyway, to sort of fast forward and a few more years later, a lot of my friends then started to have babies. Um, and again, I was just so aware of how little evidence-based you know, support we were being given and just how conflicting and how demoralizing and how anxiety-provoking it was. And I, you know, I I was I studied science at school, I love science, I love human biology, and I just couldn't see any link between what was developmentally normal in terms of infant babies, and bearing in mind infant babies are mammals, and the advice that we were being given to leave these babies and put them down in separate sleep locations and let them get on with it. And so I think you know, I decided that um I wanted to find something, I wanted to find a course that was evidence-based, that involved one-to-one teaching, um, and that allow would allow me, you know, number one, to kind of give myself confidence in what it was that I was doing in terms of my parenting skills, but also to be able to support initially my friends, but then you know, later on, I ended up working um for a period of time in a law firm, um, and it struck me just how many parents were coming in in the morning completely exhausted with very, very, very little support in place, and the information or the advice that was in place, like I said, she just went against normal biological infant development. Does that make sense?

Dr Andrew Greenland:

No, it does, thank you. It's always really helpful to understand the inspiration behind what you're doing.

Emma Gawne:

Yeah, so I I took quite a long time to try and identify the right course because unfortunately, you know, there are lots of people that can call themselves a sleep consultant. I'm sure you're aware of it as a as a medical practitioner. And there are a lot of courses which you could sign up to and you know, in the course of a weekend, come out with some sort of a qualification. Um, and I thought, you know, it's really important for me that I find something that you know not only looks at sleep itself, but looks at nutrition, looks at neuroscience, you know, looks at attachment, actually has you know, well, you know, well-established, well-known practitioners teaching these core modules as opposed to it just been online over a weekend. So I found um a course in America, um, and then not shortly after that, um, the amazing Lindsay Hookway um with her partner Emma started the holistic sleep coaching program here in the UK. So I've also been able to do parts of that as well, as well as you know, continual professional development with various other courses, and um, you know, and I'm talking about you know, courses on infant feeding, courses on attachment. It's not solely sleep-related, but obviously, of course, all those tenants play into the sleep picture. Um, and I've also been very lucky to shadow some amazing practitioners over the course of my career. So I work very closely with incredible lactation consultants, incredible pediatric osteopaths, pediatric dentists, pediatric ENTs. So, you know, there's a lot of people in the puzzle in the picture, in terms of the support that I offer, and I've also been able to learn from them as well, which has been so helpful and so important for the journey that I'm on. Um, so yes, that's a long, a long story of how I got to where I am. Um, but I think you know, it was really born from a real passion and a real desire to support families, but to give them the information that they really needed, but also the information that takes into consideration their baby's developmental attachment and connection needs because, as far as I could see, so much of the advice that I was reading and that's still so mainstream doesn't do that.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Fascinating. Really interesting about the inspiration, and it sounds like you've put together your own kind of approach model for dealing with this. And so, how has um helped baby sleep kind of evolved over time? As you know, you learn more and more, you meet more and more people, you share learnings. How's how's the whole operation evolved?

Emma Gawne:

Um, so I think you know, like with anything, you start off with you know, a certain amount of information, as then as you practice and you experience and you meet new colleagues, that grows and that grows and that changes. Um, and I think, you know, I think for me, um, it's about firstly sharing and educating parents about what's normal and what they can expect, rather than making these really sweeping promises about being able to fix things. Because I think a lot of a lot of parents go out there looking for a fix. And I, you know, initially when I started, I wanted to provide a fix, you know, because we live in a fix-it culture, whereas now I'm really, really clear and I'm really up front with parents about the fact that this is not me fixing their baby sleep, it's about me working with them because they're their babies' experts, you know, they know their babies better than anybody. I don't, but I have the experience and understanding, and I know the nuances that contribute to sleep. Um, and so it's about me working with them and identifying what potentially might be playing in sleep, might be acting as a barrier and preventing the baby from sleeping at their biological best, but also at the same time being really clear about what that biological best might look like. So it might be that baby wakes two, three, four times a night to feed, but that seed is easy. You know, babies relax, they return to sleep easily compared to a baby that's waking up the same number of times, but's waking up distressed, you know, it's waking up thrashing around. It takes parents a long time to soothe the baby, you know, for everybody in the whole family to return to sleep. So I think it's very, very individualized. There is really no one size fits all. Um, but I would say if there's something that's kind of become and risen to the prominence over the time that I've been doing this, it would be the conversation around airway and around airway health, and the fact that you know, so many people don't appreciate the correlation between breathing and sleep, and the fact of the mat, you know, if you're not breathing properly, you're not going to be sleeping, opt me, and you're very likely to be waking up a lot more than if you were breathing as you should, as nature designed. Um, so I think you know, that's kind of when I started the airway conversation, you know, it was there, but it wasn't prominent, you know, it wasn't at the forefront like it is for me today. Um, and I think, you know, actually, you know, as an adult, um, and as a 40-year-old, I have, you know, gone through a lot of my own challenges with my sleep, and I've recently been diagnosed with upper airway resistance syndrome, which I have I have presumed and thought I've had for a long time, but I've just had a clinical diagnosis recently, and so I think it's about getting the information to the parents in those early years, because that's so important because there are so many signs and symptoms that are being missed and overlooked, and that are not being talked about enough, and of course, you know, it goes hand in hand with brain development. So if a child isn't getting quality sleep because they're not breathing properly, that's impacting on their brain, and that's something I feel very passionate about communicating and sharing with the families I work with, in but in a non in a non-frightening way. Obviously, I don't want to go in there and start talking about brain development, you know, and brain damage. It's more about saying, look, we've come here today to talk about your infant sleep, but I need to start off by looking and seeing whether we're seeing any red flags, and red flags might be you know, mouth breathing, noisy sleep, restless sleep, um snoring, um what else? Um, reflux symptoms, speeding challenges, all of those need to be looked at really carefully. Um, and then it's for me then to refer out to the relevant practitioner who I think is the best person to support that family at that stage of development. Um, so you know, that might be referring to an ENT, it might be referring to a pediatric dentist, it might be referring to a lactation consultant or a pediatric osteopath who understands the airway conversation.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Airway being massively um important throughout life, um obviously you starting starting from the early years, but I'm seeing the whole sort of sleep happening a thing in adults and later adults. So it's it's become definitely more important in the overall management of everything, including sleep and brain health and everything else. It's interesting you hear hearing you talking about this from the early years perspective. So um how does your day-to-day typically look at the moment then in relation to the work that you do in this space?

Emma Gawne:

Um so I think that no one days the same. I think um, and actually that that suits me very well because one of the things that I like is to have variation and diversity, but typically I will some I will kind of divvy divvy up my week between actual visits, home visits in person to people's homes, um with virtual calls, um, either supporting people, you know, once I've met with them, or often I I will have people from further field or you know, somewhere else in the UK, which means I can't get to them. Um, and then I'm also you know, uh working on my Instagram, I'm working on my my blog. So I I think having fresh information that I'm able to share with parents and parents that can't necessarily afford my services is really important to me, um, as well as building relationships with people in the community. Um, so I think it's very, you know, for me, almost the most important thing actually is getting to parents and talking to parents before they even have the children, they even have a baby. So, you know, I I work quite closely with midwives, um, and I'm looking at trying to, you know, actually finding a way to start this conversation with pregnant with pregnant mothers. Um, so that you know, not to scare monger more than anything, to reassure and to take away and dispel quite a lot of those myths that I'm seeing that are so prevalent in society. Um, so yeah, so it's very varied, it's sort of a mixture of actual client one-to-ones or a lot of sort of community outreach, marketing, creating new resources. Um, I think um one of the things I have noticed um recently is that the prevalence of online courses is growing, particularly when it comes to sleep. Um and I think that they certainly serve a purpose, but I think when you have something so nuanced, um for me the real you know, in terms of what I can provide, it's really about having those conversations in person rather than writing a course. Because I think you know, you're tired, you're reading the course, and you're you know, you're not necessarily going to see beneath the lines, you're not necessarily going to see something, especially with your own child. Your child is your child, and you know, they're they're they're perfect in your eyes. Um, and so I think uh I think that I'm not at this moment in time ready to produce a course. I want to focus much more so on still being able to provide that one-to-one service, be that you know, meeting people in their homes or in a community setting where I can talk to them, you know, w after having done a workshop or something like that. Um so yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Okay, well, you're right. I mean, of course, it can only ever really be generic, giving math information, but I think what you offer is a more customized approach where you can take the individual nuances of the family into consideration. So I think it's it's really important doing that one-time work.

Emma Gawne:

Yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

So what you've been doing in this space for quite a few years now. What are the biggest changes you've seen in parenting and early childhood in the last few years, perhaps?

Emma Gawne:

So I think, well, I think the involvement of fathers, so fathers being able to take more responsibility during um shared parental leave. Um, so I've definitely noticed there's been a massive paradigm shift in the number of dads who are at home and who are actually, you know, looking sole carer, well, at least during the day for the child that didn't really exist um when I started. Um, and I've really seen, especially since since lockdown, a lot more um, you know, parents are contacting me and it's dad at home with the baby for three or four months as opposed to mum, which is definitely a new thing. Um, and I think it's a great, it's great. And I think, you know, I'm absolutely thrilled that we, you know, that as a society we can now offer this to parents to have this shared parental leave. Um it's a shame that I think it's a shame that I didn't have it when my children were small. Um, whether it existed or whether it was just not being spoken about, I don't know. Um, but so that's a big shift. Um I think interestingly, there has been um, you know, there's definitely a shift away from wanting to or not wanting to sleep train. Um and when I say sleep train, I'm talking really about um things, you know, like cry out or control crying. However, so much of that parent's expectations around what normal infant sleep looks like is still bedded in that sleep training conversation. The idea that we need to get our babies sleeping for long periods of time and sleeping independently, even though they don't want to get to that point using non-responsive sleep training methods, that concept of independent sleep goes hand in hand with that sleep training conversation. Does that make sense?

Dr Andrew Greenland:

It does, absolutely, thank you.

Emma Gawne:

Um, so I think there's definitely been a shift, but almost for me now it it's I spend a lot of my time having to educate parents kind of from the outset, because although they're on board with wanting to be responsive and focus on co-regulation, their goals are still very much set in that sleep training mentality. Does that make sense?

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Yeah, absolutely.

Emma Gawne:

Um, so I think that's a big change. Um, so I think that's why I said to you, I want to get to parents before they had the child. So they are actually coming into parenthood with an understanding of what normative infant sleep development looks like, what infants need, what does attachment mean? Um, and and you know, because the thing is, we've been bringing up babies for millennia, for hundreds of thousands of years, and interestingly, the history of sleep training really only belongs in the context of the last 150 years before that. We were we were bringing our babies up as we had done, keeping them close, feeding them regularly. So it's almost like having, you know, without being patronizing, having to re-educate families because there's such a prevailing underlying current. Even though we've got years and decades now of neuroscience research, attachment research, that sleep training conversation is still so prominent. So that's definitely something that's shifting, the landscape shifting, but it hasn't fully shifted. So I think for me as a sleep coach, that's something that I'm finding quite challenging. Um, because I get what parents want to do, they don't want to ignore their child, but at the same time, I'm not sure they are that ready to accept what normative infant sleep looks like and what babies need. And I think that's also because there's such a clash with what we have, you know, culturally, what we're able to provide for families and what historically we would have been doing. And the fact is, is that we don't necessarily have babies with sleep problems, we have a societal problem in that we don't have the support structures in place to enable babies to be babies and to support the parents to allow that to happen. Does that make sense?

Dr Andrew Greenland:

It does, thank you. I was gonna ask you about um millennial and Gen Z parents. Are they approaching sleep and wellness differently?

Emma Gawne:

I think the ones that I'm seeing, it very much depends on where you live, interestingly, and who you're mixing with, um, and the messaging that you're hearing. So, yes, some of them are, but some of them really aren't, and some of them, and I think as well, Andrew, because if you think about, you know, if you've got a family and you know, you've got this generation, you've got the previous generation, then you've got the previous generation, a lot of the messaging around sleep is coming from family, directly from the family, or at least people who are, you know, part of the older generation, so will have done certain things in a certain way. Um, so I think that those people that look for it, yes, the answer is yes. Um, and I also think it really depends as well a lot on the algorithms. So if you're on Instagram and you go down a certain route and then you start getting information about brain development and neuroscience and what's normal, then that's gonna sway you. Whereas if you go down and you start typing in help me, how you know get my baby sleeping through the night, you're then gonna get information coming from that direction. So I'm not sure that it has massively, if I'm honest.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Okay.

Emma Gawne:

Especially not, sorry. I was just gonna say, especially not in what I would call weird countries, so that's Western, economic, industrialized, rich, democratic countries. I don't think so. I think if anything, fleet training is still really, really, really prominent.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Interesting. You've referenced um Instagram and social media a little bit on this call. What what is um what is working in terms of marketing this and what's driving the demand, do you think? What's that you're seeing?

Emma Gawne:

Um well, I think if you are on Instagram and you're searching for sleep tips or sleep coaching, um, and then you start looking at various websites or various um accounts, um, and you know, don't I think people are looking for quick fixes a lot of the time as well. So if someone's promising a quick fix or get your baby sleeping through the night in two to three days or even a week, that's really, really appealing when you are four or five months, six months into the thick of it, you've not slept for a good three, four hours. I don't know, possibly before you even had your baby. And I when I say slept, you haven't had that consistent sleep. You're gonna go, you're gonna go for the quick fix. You're going to you know investigate something that's going to give you immediate relief because it's a horrible place to be when you're sleep deprived. Um, and you know, I'm not saying that people should suck it up and bear it, absolutely not, but there are lots of ways that we can get parents more sleep, more rest, make the situation more sustainable for them without changing how they respond to their baby. Um, and interestingly for me, Instagram has never been a great marketing platform for me. Um, because I'm not I'm not selling a quick fix, I'm selling a really complex new one service that involves me spending, you know, several hours talking with the family and getting to know them and understand what's working for them and what isn't and what would be possible and what wouldn't. Um, and we're looking at things like you know, nutrition, dietary advice. We're looking at baby's temperament, we're looking at baby sensory needs. I I I think from for a service like I'm providing, Instagram is not really the platform. I think it's a good place for me to share information, um, tidbits of information, but certainly not to kind of sell myself on, um, if that makes sense. Um, so I think the people who Instagram works for are the people selling courses um or the people selling programs, like sleep training programs, where they might come and you know talk you through something over a period of four or five days, and that's it, sort of finite. Whereas I will often support the families that I'm working with four months. I mean, I've got families who I've supported with their first child, and you know, we've constantly kept in touch, and then they have another and we keep in touch. So it's you know, for me, it's about building a relationship and maintaining that relationship. It's not a sort of here we go, here's the answer by. Um, and and and that's because things are changing, and a baby's development is not a linear process, and neither is sleep. It goes up and down, up and down. Um, so I think um for me, um, Instagram is like a magazine cover, you know, kind of gives people an idea of who I am and what it is that I, you know, what it is that I kind of think um and concepts and ideals that are important to me rather than me using it as a sales platform.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

So what's your approach to a parent that comes in saying, I've tried everything and nothing works? What would you do with them?

Emma Gawne:

I'd say, well, I think firstly, it's very easy to blame yourself. Um, and I say to them that um sometimes you have it's not that you haven't done something that's necessarily the right thing, it may well be the order in which you did it, um, or it may well be um, you know, timings or how you felt in that in that moment, because I think a lot of the time when parents are trying to make changes to their infant sleep, they have good ideas, you know. They might be trying something that in reality is probably not a bad idea, but either they are you know trying it at the wrong time of day, or they're trying it on a day when they're absolutely exhausted, so their nervous system is a state, and if your nervous system as a parent is dysregulated, and you're trying to make a change to to how your baby's, you know, either falling or the location and where they're the location and where they're falling asleep, it's going to be almost impossible if you're dysregulated as a parent, because your baby doesn't have the ability to calm themselves down, they're relying on the parent's brain, you know, they rely on on the prefrontal cortex on the hippocampus to put a break on the gas pedal. And if the parents' brake isn't working properly, that's not going to happen. So I think a lot of the time it's about reassuring the parent that they're not doing anything wrong. Um, and also I think too, sometimes you know, they've tried everything. Well, what sort of questions have they been asked or have they asked themselves? So it's again, it's sort of it what have they tried? Who have they worked with? What level of detail has that person gone into? Because it's you know, there's again a lot of nuance, and there's a very varied degree of how detailed people are when they're offering that sleep support. Um, and I will often get parents say to me, Oh my goodness, your questionnaires are so in depth. I just worked, you know, a couple of months ago with another sleep consultant, and she didn't ask me anything. And I just think, how? How can you support a family without asking them anything at all? Because it's then it's just presuming that you know the answers and you've got. Some generic fix. So I don't, if I'm honest with you, I don't look too closely at what other people are doing because I don't think it's necessarily that helpful. I think it's more important for me to talk to my colleagues in the space and talk to the people that I'm working alongside to get an understanding of what they're asking, what they're looking for. So when I do then come to um flag, you know, and reaffer out, I'm really certain that I'm looking at the right thing. Um, so you know, I and I think lots of people do come to me and say they've tried everything until they met me, and that's when they then got the answers that they were looking for. Um, so yeah, does that does that answer your question?

Dr Andrew Greenland:

It does, thank you, thank you. Um so you've talked a lot about your model and why it's so successful, but is there anything that's frustrating or limiting you in terms of your growth or your ability to provide the service or any challenges that you've had to overcome in doing this work?

Emma Gawne:

Um yes, I think definitely there are some limitations in the sense that I think the main issue for me is that when you're tired and exhausted, coming back to this wanting of the quick fix, if somebody's saying to you I can help you, but it's going to take, you know, I can't give you a timeline necessarily, I can't give you a guarantee. But what I am going to do is go into real detail with everything, and then I'm going to make sure that I guide you step by step through the process. And they're saying, Well, I need I need a definitive answer, I need to know whether I'm going to see improvements in a week or two weeks' time, and I'm not going to mislead people. That's a real challenge for me because then I think that they will often go elsewhere if they're not in that mindset of actually understanding that you know this is not a quick fix, sleep is not a quick fix. Sleep, you know, sleep itself is a homeostatic bodily process. You can't teach somebody to sleep, but you need to understand what it is that's preventing that individual, be an adult or a baby, from being able to sleep. And that's complex. So, you know, it's so that that's a tricky one for me. Um, and I don't think that, you know, I'm not going to win everybody, um, but I think the more information people have and the more they understand that these quick fixes they're looking for are not the answer, then hopefully we can start to change it in terms of people like me offering support. Um, and I, you know, I'm also not I'm not prepared to lie. I'm not prepared to say to somebody, will you come and work with me and I'll get your baby sleeping through the night in seven days. I'm just not prepared to do that. And I will often say, if your baby sleeps through the night, that's a byproduct. That's not our goal. My goal is to get you as a family to a place where you feel more rested, where your situation is more sustainable, and actually to empower you because a lot of these parents are feeling really disempowered and don't have the confidence and don't have the tools to manage their situation. Um, and that for me is really important because you know, you can often have a situation where someone might, you know, let's say somebody goes down the traditional route of sleep training, and that baby sleep might improve, you know, but in two, three, four months' time, they might be back to where they were initially, and they just then I'm the wiser. And I'm really keen to ensure that doesn't happen.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Got it. Um, if you had a magic wand that could fix one thing in your business overnight, um, client expectations aside, what would that be?

Emma Gawne:

Um I think it would be um having a more consistent um stream of clients, I think that's what would I would like to see. Because I think I go through periods where I am very, very busy and I have waiting lists, and then I go through periods where it's almost like, oh, has everybody gone on holiday? And I I can't, you know, and I'm trying to discern whether the rhyme or reason for this, and I just simply can't. Um, and I know from having spoken to colleagues who do similar to me, it is the nature of it, which I imagine is why a lot of people now are selling these quick courses, because it is um, well, it's constant, isn't it? It's a silent form of income. Um, so I think that's the challenge, and I think it's the same for lots of you know, lots of therapists, lots of practitioners like myself that you do have these ups and downs, but that's really tricky. I think that's a really tricky one, and not, and I guess also for me, you know, with a with an osteopath, and I'm using an osteopath because I go to an osteopath regularly, you know, I might not see them every month, but there's a kind of element of management there. So I will go back maybe once every twice, you know, twice every few months, or sorry, once every two months. Um, whereas for me, it's almost like you win a new client, you support the client, and then they change because the child grows older and things change and they no longer have the issues that they did. So I think that's a challenge as well. Um, because you're having to go out and find new clients very regularly rather than nurturing the clients that you already have.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

Got it. And finally, what are you looking to do with um help baby sleep in the long term or certainly the next six to twelve months? What sort of direction are you hoping to go in?

Emma Gawne:

Um, so I'm hoping to, like I said, when we first started talking, I'm hoping to um find a way of getting the message to parents before they've had their baby, um, about what to expect in terms of normal development of infant sleep, how they can support themselves, um, you know, thinking about what care systems, what strategies to put in place so that when they do find themselves with that very little baby, it's not a complete shock. Um, so I think that's something that I'm going to be focusing on and working on, as well as um hoping to um expand my business more locally around me. So I spent the last 20 years living in London, and in the last couple of years I moved out to Ascot. So although I have a really um I have a have a great business, I have a great foundation in South West London, in terms of my local clients, I found it quite difficult to grow that where I am now. Um there just doesn't seem to be the community structure that they that I found in London, which is interesting because there are lots of villages around where I am, but in London, I think you know, I think to be a parent in London is much easier actually to be a parent than to be a parent somewhere more rural, which is where I am now.

Dr Andrew Greenland:

On that note, thank you so much for your time this afternoon. Really, really appreciate it. Really interesting conversation. Thank you for being so open and in depth about the work that you do and how you serve your clients. Uh, really been a pleasure having this conversation. So, thank you so much.

Emma Gawne:

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.