Renegotiating the parent-child relationship as the kids become the adults.

What happens when children become adults, parents become grandparents, and everyone has different expectations about family?

Julie is a licensed marriage and family therapist who owns her own practice, Juniper Counseling, here in Peachtree City, Georgia.  She works with adult individuals and couples and specializes in life transitions, sexuality/identity, and relationships. 

In this episode, David sits down with family counselor Julie Johnston to explore the evolving relationship between adult children and their parents. They discuss why some grandparents are deeply involved in their grandchildren's lives while others take a more hands-off approach, how family expectations change over time, and why even healthy families can struggle to navigate this new season of life.

Whether you're raising children, caring for aging parents, or trying to balance both, this conversation offers valuable insight into boundaries, communication, family obligations, and maintaining meaningful relationships across generations.

You'll learn:

Why parent-child relationships often need to be renegotiated in adulthood
How expectations can create conflict between adult children and parents
The changing role of grandparents in modern families
How to establish healthy boundaries without damaging relationships
Practical ways families can stay connected through every stage of life.

Recommended books: 

https://www.audible.com/ep/mytitle?asin=B01F2M2GDO&language=en_US&source_code=GO1PP30DTRIAL54702202491G8&ds_cid=21383977191&ds_agid=167499000670&ds_kids=299193458326&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21383977191&gclid=Cj0KCQjw3K7RBhDJARIsAKRtP5QXEzZaOJ6Sluv6xUWSSS_T34DhyopmXUI5kNYhWY9_7P0xXVgCIuwaAs4OEALw_wcB

https://www.amazon.com/Set-Boundaries-Find-Peace-Reclaiming/dp/0593192095

You can find me as David Monsour a.k.a. Disco Davo on most social media applications as well as my contact 
davidmonsour.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

All right, hey everybody. Today we are talking about renegotiating the parent-child relationship as kids become the adults. And we have Julie Johnston here today. Thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

You're very welcome. So I always start with one thing, and so I'm gonna ask you just to read this into the camera.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Okay. I need to read this.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Yes, please read it.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

My three favorite things are eating out with my friends and using commas. That's only two things.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

What a loser. You ruined it. Okay, so I was working on your intro, and I actually came up with a brand new word. I invented a word.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

It's called Arch Frenemy. You are my arch friendemy.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Okay. Yes. I mean, like the top, arch is like the top.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Like I'm your number number one arch friendemy, yes. Wow. And I will explain because I God, this is so hard to compliment you. Why is that? We can address that later.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Just avoid eye contact.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Yes, I will. So I you are my arch friend of me. I think we are competing for the coolest kids in Fayette County. Like I think your music taste, your the life of the party every time, all the things that I strive for. I'm always trying to outcool you. I think I'm pretty damn successful at it, but you at least keep me honest, and I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

That's really nice. Wasn't that nice? Yeah. Wow. I thought that you felt competitive because you just knew I was smarter. And it was all those things.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Yeah, but smart is not important to me. So you can have that one. Okay. Yeah. All right. All right. So we're going to start with the game just to be fun, because I I developed this great outro, and so I don't want to mess it up with the game at the end. So I'm bringing it forward. I just need you to finish the sentence. And there's a bunch of them, and I know you're gonna know them, but let's go. All right, it's seven o'clock. Where is Usher?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Oh, in the club? In the club?

SPEAKER_03 2:15

No.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

No. God, everybody says that.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

He's in the drop top.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

What type of shoes did Nellie have two pairs of? My God, you're not as cool as I thought. I don't know. I I'm gonna say two pair. I need to Air Force Ones. I have no idea. This is all right. Let's go older. Who did Whitney Houston want to dance with?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Somebody.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

Okay, thank you. How many problems did Jay-Z have?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

99.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Okay. Chris Stapleton says you're as smooth as Tennessee whiskey. Okay. What road takes you home?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Country?

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Yeah, that is right. What does TLC not want you chasing?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Rainbows. Don't go waterfalls.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Waterfalls, yes. Let's get a hard one and see what you got. What does Alicia Keys say some people live for?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

For the fortune?

SPEAKER_03 3:17

And the fame.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Fortune and the Fame?

SPEAKER_03 3:20

Yes, diamonds. Oh she has a list. Good. All right, last one, and we'll move on. What did Warren G want the regulators to do? Mount up. That's okay. You got better there.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

You were you were uh clearly my references are way older than Nelly. And Nelly's not new, so that's saying that's saying a lot.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

All right, look at that. I got those two cards out of the way, got that out of the way. All right, down to business. So you are a family counselor, and you have I you're kind of a big deal now. I understand you have gone out on your own and started your own practice.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

Is that brand new? Is that months old, years old that you've gone out on your own?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

It's pretty new. It's about a month old. I mean, I've been practicing longer than that, but yes, I've been on my own. Started Juniper counseling in May.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

So what's the difference between is it just financial that a reason for you to go out on the gas? Is it just a financial reason?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Like it's just independence. It's a little bit of I always knew I wanted to be on my own, have my own practice. It was kind of always the plan. And part of it is financial, part of it is like when you start out, I was in a group practice, loved being in my group practice. But there's like supervision and things that are offered there that you need earlier on in your career. Uh, that once you don't need those things, sometimes there's a little more impetus to go start your own thing.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

So just impetus. You deal with impetus too.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Not impotence. We'll talk about that. Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

All right, careful with these big words. Well no. Okay. All right. So today we are talking about just the parent-kid relationships. And I just again, you're somewhat witty, so I thought you'd be great on here. And I just threw this topic out and you said you actually deal with it a good bit.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Yeah, quite a bit. I mean, we're talking about adult children, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Right. Yeah. Adult children dealing with their adult parents.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

And we're not necessarily talking today about like just them aging and having dementia and all that. I mean, we can talk about that, but it's more just how to manage those relationships, I guess, because it's not as easy as we all thought it would be.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah. I think things have changed. There's been a shift generationally, and as far as what we're willing to do versus what maybe the boomer generation was raised to believe was required of kids. And so there's that tension now between there's a lot of us that are in kind of a sandwich generation where we're still we have young kids, and but we also have parents that we're helping out and trying to keep boundaries. I think people have boundaries now that they didn't have before, and that's creating some tension in these relationships too.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

So the boundary word in psychology, I think it's kind of like with everything else. We really swung, in my opinion, way too far on drawing boundaries everywhere. And if anyone hurts your feelings, draw a boundary and they're not they're not allowed to be in your life anymore because they offended you, versus okay, sometimes things are just gonna be hard and you're gonna have to be mean. Sometimes you just gotta deal with it. It's hard. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, I think it depends on what you think boundaries are. For in from my perspective, a boundary isn't about pushing someone away. A boundary is about how can I be close to someone who's difficult and still protect myself. Okay. So I think a lot of people do think of boundaries as like a hard wall that keeps people out. And for me, when I talk to clients about boundaries, it's about how can you stay close to this person that you'd like to, that you need to or want to stay close to, and also make sure that you're not getting run over or kind of sacrificing your own values.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

So it that is exactly what I think the pendulum did with boundaries. I think bound when we gave everyone permission to draw these boundaries, it gave everyone permission to shut their door and people no longer sit on their front porch. People are like, oh, I, you know, and it's a joke. Like, if somebody rings the door, I'm not even going to it. Don't stop by my house without calling and giving me a two-hour notice. And and everybody has their opinions on that because I thoroughly enjoy stopping by people's houses without notice. And I thoroughly enjoy when people stop by my house.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

Don't stop by and come and spend two hours. Like, I don't want, you know, if I'm in the middle of something, I need you to just say hey and leave. But if you're on the golf cart path, please do stop by and say hello and knock on through. I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

So that's your boundary is you don't want people coming and just expecting that they can stay, but you're open to them dropping by.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

It's an unofficial boundary.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

I think I hear it. I hear you. Like people, I think, do misunderstand boundaries, the words used a lot. And again, if it's if it's really about maintaining relationships, I think it looks a lot different.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Right. So why do you think this is such an under-discussed topic? Because I've I've talked with a couple friends more around like, does your mom, like as an adult, uh, it's weird when you're saying your mom just want to be clear. I'm saying as an adult saying, hey, does your mom come to all of your kids' soccer games? Does your mom like want to babysit like all the time, or is she like, are you feeling like you're having to beg them to?

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

So I think that's kind of what I want to talk about is sometimes there's got to be boundaries of your your mom wants to come and be involved in your life all the time, and you're like, we need some alone time, we got this, we're fine, versus hey mom, I don't want to have to beg you. Here's the soccer schedule for the season. Please come to every single game. But go home right at first.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Well, I think that again, like expectations. I talk about this a lot, how you know, and I'm sure you've heard this before, like resentment is the expectations are the key ingredient in resentment.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

And it's non-verbalized expectations. And so the difference is can you have the conversation with your parents about this is what I would really like from you? I would really like for you to come to every game and verbalizing that. It may never have been their expectation that that was something they were gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

So they're doing what they feel comfortable doing and showing up when they feel comfortable showing up. But if we don't tell them, hey, this is what in my mind I was expecting, which was not based on something you told me you were gonna do. It's just something I always thought you would. Yeah, it's not really fair to have these expectations of people if we haven't verbalized that. Right. And it's hard not to do. And you play the comparison game with other people, and you see they have all this extended family at every game and every recital, and you're like and the flip side, I feel like I think I get this from my mom.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

She wants to be invited every single time. And God, that sounds so simple. Like, how hard is it just to every single Saturday go, hey, there's another game tomorrow? But then it also, when they don't show up, it kind of hurts your feelings. Like, wow. Oh, you're gonna go to something else, and then you stop inviting them, you let them go, hey, I don't want to invite you every single time, and then get my feelings hurt when you don't show up. So let me just let you know here's the soccer schedule, here's the band schedule, here's whatever. Yeah, please come to everything. And then they're like, Well, you don't even invite me. It's like, how do we fix that, Julie?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

That's a good question. I think you have to be able to have those conversations and again being able to be honest with yourself about what was I expecting that I never even verbalized. And then if I've verbalized it and they're still not showing up, then I've gotta understand, I've got to kind of meet them where they're at. I'm not saying it's an excuse, it's like you're not gonna feel hurt, of course you're gonna feel hurt, but knowing, okay, this is what they're willing to give. This is, and so can I deal with that or not? Does it mean I wanna just not invite them anymore because then I don't want to get my feelings hurt? Or would I rather meet them where they're at and say, okay, you look like you're a like a three-game grandma, right? Like that's what you can do. And then I gotta deal with myself on my disappointment that you're not somebody different. You are who you are. Now, we can still have our feelings about that. It's not, it's a reason, not an excuse. But at some point we have to let ourselves off the hook of being disappointed every time when they've kind of shown us who they are.

SPEAKER_03 12:17

And I think maturity is probably a good resolution to that. And what I mean by that is like if my mom was to tell me, hey, I'm good for one soccer game a year, I'd be like, cool. Okay. But then when she doesn't show up to that one, or it's the last season, I'm like, are you coming? Oh no, it's too hot, now it's too hot. And then you're disappointed again. We're talking about a cycle of years of inviting and not showing up. And on on the parent of the adult side of, you know, you don't invite me, or the kids don't even come up and hug me right away after the game. And I just know some of those things that we all get our feelings hurt. Like, I know my mom has showed up, or my mom has come over here for some a Halloween party, and the kids didn't sit beside her and have a 20-minute conversation. She got her feelings hurt. It's like, I'm just gonna I'm gonna leave. I'm like, what did you expect them to do? Like they're nine, and you thought they were gonna sit next to you. And sometimes they do. Yeah, sometimes they uh will, but if they have other friends there or if there's any other distraction, they're likely gonna take it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

And I think being open about these things, like, mom, I'm gonna tell the kids that they should absolutely acknowledge you every time you're here and thank you for coming. But I'm not putting the expectation on them that they're gonna sit there for 20 minutes, right? I want that's that's not something that I'm pushing with them. So set her expectation that she's gonna have let her deal with her feelings about that not being enough.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

And, you know, when it's just us and family, then you know, that's when you'll get that quality time. But there's a large group, it's likely that you're not gonna get that time. We still want you here. Yeah, but just being kind of open about it and then allowing your parent as an adult to handle that. Now, if they're not emotionally mature, they may not be able to handle that message. Right, right. Some of this might ring true for you too.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Not me, yeah, not me. I'm I'm fully emotionally immature. Right, mature. Oops. Oops. Uh, so what is what is something common that you hear maybe in your office that nobody wants to say out loud? Is there a common theme other than what we might have already talked about that that is going on that's hurting relationships?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

My parents are racist.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Uh I mean, there's a lot of politics and and forgive me for interrupting. Uh because I do see that, and not necessarily with my mom, but I do find that sometimes the older generation is more likely to only read headlines and to and fear because they're older, because things change, they're not like we were when a kid, when I was a kid, or whatever. So they are living in fear, which is being fed to them on purpose. And so they go in a hard direction on one side or the other, and it it does hurt. That's something I've had to work out with with my mom, and I think she and myself have done a great job of figuring out what we can talk about and what we can bring up. And I'm not one that says you can never talk about politics because I think it's okay to talk about it sometimes, but at some point you got to know when to cut it off or what what's that hard line where you know you're not gonna agree on?

unknown 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

I mean you set expectations for what's gonna be the outcome of that. Am I am I gonna change their mind?

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Probably not. But does it feel good for me to be true to myself and my values to say, you know what, we are really on opposite sides of this issue, but this might be as far as we take this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

And what I've kind of figured out, and it works for parents as well, but just for anybody, is if whatever you're saying is making the other person defensive, then you there's no way you can win the argument. Because they automatically, it's like an animal that's all of a sudden, there's nothing you can say because they're just going to defend their stance. So we've all got to find a better way of giving our opinion without attacking and making that other person go straight to being defensive. Because I know there's a lot of people in this current environment that would love to denounce some of the current politics, but they fear they fear giving an inch, like, oh, well, then I'd be admitting that you're right. And I don't think you can, I don't think it's both. I think this current person could be horrible, even though maybe his politics are okay. Well, let's move on.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Okay. I I yes, I think politics are coming up a lot. And there's it's so layered, right? Like there's this, I'm realizing now that what a lot of what my parents taught me is kind of based in maybe some racism. And now I I'm frustrated that they still feel have these beliefs, and I'm also frustrated that they led me to believe these things, you know, kind of told me these stories for so long, and now I'm having to unpack it. And so there's a little bit of resentment there, and I think everybody's doing the very best they can with the information they have at the time, and we also all have the opportunity to learn new things if we're open to it.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Right. And yeah, because I I try not to give people too hard a time that may have had opinions 20 years ago or spoke on things or used words or said because it wasn't, but I don't think people understood the impact those words or thoughts were having on other people. So I I'm not gonna judge you because, and and and I'm it don't judge me on the way I thought 20 years ago. I felt like I was pretty open-minded, but but there were a lot of things that I said and did that I'm like, dang, that was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

So I think you know, we all got to grow from it, and that's what we hope for.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah. Time goes on, we get exposed to different things, different ideas, different people, and hopefully we learn and get better all the time. The difference is, is the person that we're talking to or dealing with willing to do the same work?

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

And if they're not, then we got to make some tough decisions about do I just do I need to find a way to meet them where they're at and still protect myself? Or is this someone that is too negative of an influence in my life? Would I want this person telling my kids how to, you know, giving my kids life advice? Right. If not, why am I letting them speak into me? So it's it's tough, it's a tough time.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

It is. All right, so let's let's change the dynamic a little bit. Let's talk about the adult child that maybe was hurt by their parent. And I'm not talking about just they said one thing, but maybe there was some trauma or something. How then do they any recommendation for how do they deal with now that that parent needs their help? Maybe they're struggling or financially or health-wise or whatever. How should an adult child handle a parent that maybe was not a good parent when they were a kid?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

I think there's it's innate in us from birth to desire a relationship with our parents. That's safety, right? Like we need our parents to survive as an infant. So it is we're designed to desire that relationship with them. And we need a relationship, we need them to be good for us to be good growing up. And so I think there's a lot of times where we you see kids with parents that ask a lot of them learning to be people pleasers, learning to just make things right for the parent, because that'll make things right for me. And then as you get into adulthood, you know, they're able to create some separation just by growing up, moving out, having financial freedom, all of that. And then the cycle come back comes back around, and those parents again are asking for help, asking, you know, requiring. And that's the difference too. Are they asking for help? Are they is there entitlement in it? Are they requiring requiring it? And so I think what all that stuff kind of gets pulled back up. Some old wounds that maybe we've been able to move work through with distance now all of a sudden come back up when we have to step into that role again. And I think the difference is one, can they understand the and do they care about the impact it's having on us to have to give that help? That makes a big difference. If we know, look, they don't want to put us in this position, they appreciate it, right? They're trying really hard to still give us space and and not impede on our lives in a way that's gonna be damaging, that's fine. That's one thing. If they're stepping right back in and it's like, you should do this because you're my parent, when they start shooting on you, you've got a problem.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Yeah, that.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

So I thought you cussed on my podcast. That's not true.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

No, I'm keeping it clean.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

PG. So, what what advice do you give to the to the adult that doesn't want to be there for their parents?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

I think there's room for that. I think again, you there's a lot of things to consider. It's like uh, you know, how is this parent approaching you for the help? Do you feel like you should give the help, or do you want to give the help? Sometimes you can care for someone, or let me step that back. You can treat someone with dignity without it coming from a caring, loving place. And it may be that you're able to compartmentalize and say, I will help this person because they are my parents and I don't want to see them suffer at the same time. Here's what I'm willing to give. Like this is boundaries. This is, I can get you to the appointments, I can talk to you on a fairly regularly, regular basis to check in. But there's a line to how much I'm willing to give and how much access I'm gonna give you to me. And that may be the best you can do, and that's okay. I think for everybody that's gonna be different. If exposing yourself to them exposes you to more trauma, then you may make the decision that's not something I can do. And maybe I find someone else that can help you.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

So that's a great end of that. So maybe just humanity comes in. Like, even if it wasn't your parent. Right. Like maybe you can't handle physically checking in and taking them to doctor's appointments, then just the humanity of it. Let's find them a resource, yeah, somebody to help just the humanity.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Here's what I can do where I can still, you know, feel like I'm staying aligned with my own values and my own self-protection, but also feel good about myself as being somebody that would help anybody in this place. Right. So there could be a line between treating someone with dignity and actually it being a loving, caring relationship. Maybe that's not always possible.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Right. And I think I think the fear is, I don't know if it's a fear, but one thing that I'm very conscious of is the way I wrote this fancy. The way I parent my parent is the way my kids are gonna parent me when I'm in that position. And that's I'm very conscious of, okay. I would never be like she is when I'm that old. I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't talk that. I would be, but I'm like, I don't know what I'm gonna be like in 20 years. I've got to be conscious of how I'm reacting and responding just to them. Am I going to visit? Am I calling and checking in? Are they invited to this and that? Because I do think about, you know, as my kids are getting close to getting older and getting out, are they gonna call? Are they ever gonna call me? Are they ever are they gonna invite me to their Thanksgiving or Christmas? Yeah, they're gonna invite their mom if you're like, because we're in a separate relationship, are they just gonna go to their wives because it's easier? So we're just gonna go to our wives' house because I don't want to deal with your child. So yeah. I think you got to be very careful of how people are watching.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

They are watching, and I think that's there's two sides to that. We want to show kindness because that's what we would want who we'd want our kids to be. And we also want to let them know that this is a choice that I'm making, and I won't do this at the price of our family paying a price. Meaning, I'm not gonna let this person, if I feel like this person's not necessarily healthy for our family, and I'm not saying this is the case for your mom, I'm just saying maybe I'm gonna step in and help grandma because it's I feel like it's the right thing to do, and it's something that I would hope that any of us would do. And I'm also going to make sure that you know our family is still respected and protected, and we can do both.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Right. Yeah, oopsie. I just touched that.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Oh no. Uh should we start over? I don't know. Probably not. I don't think we need to. So, what are some practical tips for making conversations with adult parents easier? So, what if you just don't have a lot in common? Like we talked about the politics and other things. What are some what is something we can do just to make it easier to get along with? Because my mom is wonderful. I mean, she is an amazing person, like loved by people, so she serves her community, she's incredible. But me and her are just butt heads, like all the time. And so it is a work in process trying to figure out how do I go and have a conversation. Because it seems like everywhere we go, it ends up taking that turn. So, any good tips for how, and I made that scenario up. My mom's an angel. I'm just kidding, we get along perfectly.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

It's like just that watching. I think one setting your expectation for what the outcome of those conversations needs to be. Not every conversation has to feel like a connecting, you know, loving exchange. So if the point is we want to maintain contact, we want to stay involved in each other's lives, but not necessarily be speaking into it and taking each other's opinion all the time, then stay with the safe topics. What are we good at? We're good at talking about the kids, we're good at how's your gardening going, right? How, you know, what is what have your last couple of weeks been like? Asking open-ended questions where they can speak about themselves. And sometimes that's enough.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Right? That maintains the relationship. They feel like they've been checked in on. You feel like you, you know, you know how they're doing. That's okay sometimes. I think a lot of times what gets in our way is just feeling like we need to hang up the phone, you know, feeling like that we've really just had this kumbaya moment. It doesn't always have to be that way.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

So is do you think we always talk about people are gonna treat you how you allow them to treat you? So and we talked about earlier about how we can tell them what our expectations are. Do you think there's ever a point, or do you think that's okay if you are always having to tell someone? And I'm not saying that an ugly word, but always having to talk about, hey, this is how this needs to go for me. Yeah. Like, hey, when I come over, can we not talk about that? Like, and that might be a constant reminder. Is that too much to ask of, let's just say me to constantly say, you know, hey, when we go on vacation this year, or when I plan Christmas, this is what I'm gonna expect. Like, I feel like you're always coaching them or writing it out when you feel like you shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

I think that's a good question. So it's another kind of misunderstanding about boundaries. Because boundaries are about not what you're gonna ask them to do because you don't have any control over ultimately whether they're gonna listen to that. And for people who need boundaries, they're most of the time not gonna listen to it. And you are gonna have to keep saying it. So an effective boundary is really saying what you're gonna do, and that way you have a plan no matter what. And that's something you're either gonna communicate to them or you're just gonna know inwardly this is, but sometimes I think it is helpful to verbalize it to the person, meaning if you choose to A, then I'm gonna need to B. So that might look like C your way out. There you go. That was really that's the next step. If this A and B thing doesn't work out, then the C is the final, truly. But it may look like if you're gonna if you choose to bring up politics every time that we're together, and it's saying this is your choice, you're choosing to do this. If you choose to bring up politics every time we're all together as a family, I'm gonna need to not have you over as much. Right, I'm gonna need to immediately change the subject, and that might get awkward for you.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

But that's what I'm gonna do. And that way you don't have to worry about what they're gonna do. You're not telling them don't talk about politics, because guess what? You can't control that. They're gonna keep talking about politics. So if you find yourself saying it over and over again, that's not an effective boundary. You haven't said what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Well, and maybe, I mean, I'll just give you an example that that I am using now that's slightly different than than politics, is when I go to my mom's house, she has collected a lot of things. And for some reason it it bothers me that there are so many things. And so I'm wanting to remove some things and move one of the seven lamps that are on the counter. And and when I know that it's even not even efficient, not in her best interest for this to be sitting right there in the middle. And so I was constantly trying to to clean or fix or consolidate, and she would take it for a little bit and then it would just be a blow up. It's my stuff, leave it alone. So, what I've had to say is, hey, just letting you know, I want to, these are things I want to do, I want to help you, but I can't because it's gonna end up in a fight. Because the way I see the way your kitchen should be laid out for you to have easy access to things and to cook and not have a fire hazard, you don't agree with. So please don't think that when I come over and just sit on your couch and talk doesn't mean that I don't want to help you with your yard, but I don't agree with how you think your yard should look. And it's a big fight because I don't think you should have five chairs at every table. It's like but it's her house and it's our stuff.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

So yeah, I would check. For me, I I hear that a lot, and I think there's one, we have to make sure that are we really reacting to what's happening right now, or is there old stuff getting brought up, like what the house looked like growing up, and it kind of pulling some of that up when you go in and see just an example, but also it is her home, you know, checking in with yourself like is this an actual hazard? Like, am I worried about her house burning down? Or I just I don't like the idea of her being a cluttery person.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

That's on you.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

That is that that and that is exactly what it is. Yeah, because there are more things than not, are this doesn't make sense for it to be here, but it's really not a problem. It's just like, why is this here? Right. I wanted to set my plate down and you have a full-on Easter garden on your counter.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

So the boundary you might need to say that you're gonna host more often. Yeah, we're gonna need to be at my house more often. I get really like, maybe you don't like the triggered word, but like it gets me super activated in here. I that's on me. Yeah, so if you don't like triggered, so it's triggered the new R word. No, uh no, it's definitely not, but some people don't like it. So, because it got overused, it gets overused. It is, and it's attacking, it makes you feel defensive because so that's on you, but to say this is on me, but I'm gonna need and I'm gonna need to maybe host more often so this doesn't become a problem between us.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

All right, so what should adults give themselves permission to feel? And you can answer that from the adult. The adult parent parent or the adult parent.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh feelings emotions are not in our control. So I would say you give yourself permission to feel whatever you're feeling. What you can control is how you the meaning you make out of it and how you respond to it. So you shouldn't judge yourself for any emotion that you have because that just comes organically. But the meaning you make out of it, you get you need to question. So thinking about, you know, if you're feeling resentment, you know, it can give me an example of kind of what feeling that you're thinking of when you ask that question.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Well, just like I just I don't want to be around them. I don't want to go. Like, why do I not like my parent? Or my parents are racist, or uh that's not a good example, but uh I don't know, just anything like that of just feeling like wow, I should like this person more, or I should want to be around them more. I should want them to go on our family vacation. Why do I not want them to go on my family vacation? That's why am I a bad person because I don't want them around more.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yeah. Again, the shoulds, that's where immediately that means you're shaming yourself.

unknown 34:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

And it's a bad place to go. It's a you're not gonna get to any good rational thought and decisions when you're in that shame place. So if you're shoulding, you're gonna back out of that. There's no should.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Get the should out of here.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

What get the should out of here? What would you like? You know, instead of focusing on what I don't want, what would I like? And then work towards that. I think any of these feelings that we have, like I should want to spend more time with my parents, but that's I think allowing ourselves to feel that way is like, oh, why am I making myself feel so bad? Why don't I, why don't I want to? Well, there's some pretty valid reasons of why it's uncomfortable for me. But allowing for like, there's lots of conflict going on for a lot of us where it's, yeah, there's some stuff that I feel like, you know, my parents have some maybe really backward ideas about some of these things, or they criticize my parenting, or, you know, because I think they know better and I feel like I know better now, and things are not the same, right? So, but I can also respect that they gave me a good childhood, and both those things can be the truth. And so letting all those conflicting feelings kind of settle in and know that both those things can be true. I think when we try to settle, it's like either I'm a good person or I don't want my parents to go on vacation with me. No, I can be a good person and not want to vacation with my parents. I like to spend time with my parents in limited chunks of time because that's how we can do it. That's how we can keep a good relationship. That's how I'm maintaining the relationship is by limiting sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

If we spend a lot of time, it might blow up. So maybe that's how I am protecting the relationship.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Creating some space around that time or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Oh, right. All right, last question. And if an adult wants a better relationship with their adult parent, or if the adult parent wants a better relationship with their adult child, what is their first step? And then finish that with how they can reach you. So if that first step involves that, or maybe it's to the point where it's not something they can do on their own, how do they reach you? Where do they find you?

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Oh, okay. What's the first step? And then how to reach me. Well, uh, you can Google Juniper Counseling. The website is junipercounselingptc.com.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

Okay. That's a tree, right? Grows in really tough.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Yeah. It grows in harsh environments. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

I love that tree. It's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Yeah, but I'm local here and I do virtual, so I can see anybody in the state of Georgia, actually. But virtual or in person.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Should that be like a step a lot of people should consider right away, or are there things they can do on their own?

SPEAKER_01 37:45

I think two things. If you're finding that there is you've reached a tough point in your relationship and it's hard for you to be around them, and it's something you desire, then yeah, to reach out and to first look inward. That, you know, I think a lot of us focus on, well, if they would just be this way, it would be easier. But we have to consider what am I doing? How am I getting in my own way? And letting some of this resentment and anger keep us apart, right? So first we got to look at ourselves. But I think, you know, there's the step to approach someone else about one if the parent wants to have a closer relationship, if the adult child wants to have a closer, closer relationship, to communicate about that and just say, hey, look, this is something I desire, and start with here's what I'm willing to do differently that I think might help. I people it's really hard to be defensive with somebody who's saying, This is on me first. And we all have something we could be doing differently. Unless we're talking about a straight-up abusive relationship or you're talking about a narcissist or really emotionally immature person who's not capable of take having that kind of dialogue. If you feel like your parents are open to change, lead with this is what I'd like for us, and this is what I think I could do differently to change that dynamic. And hopefully it leads to them having the same kind of response.

SPEAKER_03 39:12

Well, I know that the issues between me and my mom are probably about 60, 70% my fault. But if she would just fix the 40% that's her fault, I wouldn't have to change.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

You're absolutely right. I think that's the approach you've taken to life in general.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Yes. So we just need to work on that.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

So if everybody else would change, life would be better.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Exactly. Well, I love this because I think when we think of counseling, we think of marriage counseling. We think of my kids are making bad choices counseling. We think of trouble or you know, anything but this. And I think most people, almost everyone agree that counseling benefits you, period. It gives you a way to talk things out, hear a different perspective. I assume you're always you're not always agreeable or disagreeable, whatever the word. Like, I mean, I'm I'm assuming if if somebody's right and it is all the other person's fault, you're gonna say, Hey, you are right, but let's figure out how to deal with it. Versus because I have heard that it was like all they did was just tell me I was right and the other person was wrong, or all they did was tell me I was wrong. And I'm like, I don't want to go sit and hear that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Well, you know me personally, but I'm a pretty directive therapist, and so I am always asking my clients to look in word first. But if again, if we're talking about abuse or just a relationship that the other person's not capable or open to change, then it's about okay, what do we need to do for you to protect yourself? You decide, you decide if you want to have this relationship or not. But if you do want to have it, how do we make sure that you're able to stay protected and still stay close? It's possible.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

Who's your favorite TV therapist? Old or new, current?

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Oh gosh, TV therapist? You got shrinkage, you got Kramer. I used to love Kramer. Shrinkage is hilarious, but I do yell at the TV because what they do is so wrong.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

Um it's funny, that it's worth it.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yeah. I do, I love the show Couples Therapy on I think it was, I think it's it's HBO on Netflix. She's great. And I don't know. I had a TV therapist. I'm thinking about Fraser. Gosh.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

Frazier, I said Kramer, Fraser, Fraser. I thought Kramer.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Really old reference.

SPEAKER_03 41:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

But Fraser, yes.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Wasn't he on like a radio show?

SPEAKER_03 41:37

Yeah, well, he started Cheers and then he started his own show called Fraser.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Okay. Okay, that's really old.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

Last question, I said that twice already. The best podcast you've ever been on.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Oh. I'm gonna say it's this one. Oh, thank you. This has been really enjoyable.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Awesome. All right, closing time podcast with Julie Johnson. Thank y'all very much.