DTF Better with Sage and Sara: Planting Pleasure Seeds | How Intimacy and Connection Grow

Welcome back to Truth Meets Taboo and to another episode of DTF Better with Sage and Sara, the series where we explore how to become more connected, more expressed, and more turned on by life itself.

In this conversation, Sara and I continue unpacking pleasure, but not in the way you’ve been taught to think about it. This isn’t about performance, perfection, or peak experiences. It’s about the small, intentional ways you build a life that actually feels good.

We introduce the idea of “planting pleasure seeds"; tiny, everyday practices that expand your capacity for joy, creativity, and self-expression over time. Because pleasure isn’t something you stumble into. It’s something you cultivate.

We move through everything from self-expression in your space, to creativity, to relationships, to the way you’ve been conditioned to prioritize others over yourself. And I share more about my own process of learning how to choose what I actually want—without filtering it through anyone else.

This is not just about seggs. 

It’s about becoming someone who is deeply available; for pleasure, for truth, and for life.

This episode is an invitation to slow down, get present, and start building a relationship with yourself that actually feels good. 

Themes Explored in This Episode

•  Pleasure as something you cultivate, not chase 
•  “Planting pleasure seeds” and building capacity over time 
•  Why pleasure is often externalized instead of self-led 
•  The difference between performing pleasure vs. experiencing it 
•  Self-expression through space, creativity, and environment 
•  How your environment reflects your internal world 
•  Relearning joy through small, intentional practices 
•  The role of curiosity in accessing pleasure 

Jump to the Part That Calls You

0:00 Intro
7:34 Planting Pleasure Seeds in Our Lives
16:49 The Importance of Self-Pleasure and Self-Care
27:31 Embracing Self-Governance and Intimacy Skills
36:04 Exploring Personal Desires and Whimsy
46:40 The Importance of Presence in Experiencing Life
1:01:35 The Vulnerability of Sharing Personal Experiences
1:14:34 Seeking Community in Non-Monogamous Spaces

Connect with Sara:

• IG: https://www.instagram.com/confidentpelvicrehab
• Website:
  http://www.confidentpelvicrehab.com

Connect with me:
Instagram
desiretheforbidden
justasuccugirl

Tiktok
desiretheforbidden | pleasure professor 🍒 sage

Website
https://www.desiretheforbidden.com/

Transcript

Sage D (00:01.29)
Hello, my sweet, sexy vixens. Welcome back to Truth Meets Taboo. I am so, so, so excited to be here this afternoon because I am doing my second episode with Sarah. And so I'm so, so, so, so excited to have Sarah back on the podcast. Y'all really, really loved having her on the podcast before. Thank you so much for all of the wonderful feedback, for all of your beautiful comments. I really love when I see you all in person.

and you all discuss about the podcast and how much you all are loving it. So thank you so, so, so, so much. Hi, Sarah. It's so good to see you again.

Sara (00:40.302)
Sage, it's good to see you too. You I never showed you what I'm wearing actually. I feel like this is important before we jump in. I'm, I went to this market over the weekend and this beautiful girl was selling these handmade metal jewelry and I bought this, it's like a square for those that are just listening, this like square metal with this dangling goddess stones. I don't know, I just

Sage D (00:47.744)
Please.

Sage D (00:59.478)
Thank

Sara (01:09.522)
I saw this and I thought of you and I was like, this is my first time wearing it. And I thought, this is what I need to be wearing on the Truth Meets Taboo podcast with Sage.

Sage D (01:17.718)
Oh my God, I love that you saw a thing and you're like, I would like to wear this on the podcast. Like that makes me so happy because I remember when we were, when I was taking your sex mentorship program. And one of the things that you had talked about that I really loved was this idea of like adorning yourself and feeling into the identity of the.

energy or the person or the character or the vision of who you're trying to be and That's something that really has stuck with me after all these years and so I Really loved that it came full circle in the podcast so that makes me very very happy and it's beautiful and I Just I'm so in my goddess era right now, too So I'm just really into adornment and having like really pretty things on me. So I love that you found

Sara (02:09.996)
Yes, thank you. I do feel very pretty.

Sage D (02:10.902)
You're welcome. You look so pretty by the way. Your hair. my gosh. Sarah has this beautiful short bob cut and it's got cute little soft curls in it. It's luscious, luscious. Libra, Libra. We love.

Sara (02:26.36)
Well, speaking of the embodiment, I picked, I think we talked about this on the last episode, but I picked my word for the year, which was based off of a play, this one, Stage Kiss that I'm supposed to do, which might not end up happening. anyway, this was what I imagined a French bob, this flirty energy for the year. So yeah, I'm really feeling the vibes, really dressing the part.

Sage D (02:33.033)
Yeah.

Yes.

Sage D (02:47.637)
Yes.

Sage D (02:52.34)
Yeah. She's queen. We love it. We love it. I loved our last podcast. It was so wonderful to get to chat with you. And I love that today's episode is really going to kind of be a continuation of that conversation. Just as a reminder for everyone, we talked a lot about what does reorienting our relationship to pleasure look like, especially as we navigate maybe away from the idea.

of prioritizing our pain or focusing on our pain and instead kind of focusing in on and finding and exploring our pleasure. And so Sarah, I'm curious, know, what you had in mind for our conversation today and where you think you want to take us on our little journey for this afternoon.

Sara (03:37.081)
So honestly, I just wanted to have a lot of fun. I help people with really serious things in terms of medical conditions that cause a lot of pain. And in my own personal life, I've been trying to just find pleasure and joy without my phone, in the news, in the state of the world. And it's been...

a challenge. I've personally been struggling with some mental health things. I've personally been struggling with some physical things. I use exercise in order to feel good and I have been able to exercise the way that I enjoy. And so I started listening to this podcast that I loved and she talked a lot about creating this spring curriculum and I was very encouraged by it. I do always like to say if something in

inspire me their names. So let me make sure I that. And we'll put it in the credits at the bottom. We'll do that, because I don't have it right in front of me. But I felt really, I loved this idea of some, so the original creator, it was a lot of very academic, like coming up with a curriculum of an intellectual things that you wanted to learn. You know, I wanted to learn a language or wanting to learn how to play the violin or whatever.

but I was listening to the In the Meadow podcast, which she's just wonderful. I think her name is Victoria and she adapted it to be more of just things that feel good, just little pleasures. Like I would love to know how to plant seeds and them grow in the sunlight. Like just the most adorable, I was like, you are a fairy creature. Like you're just so, I just love, very whimsical. was like, you're just.

Sage D (05:24.842)
very whimsical.

Sara (05:29.378)
my fairy older sister and I just love listening to you. And I was like, you know what? I want to be someone's fairy older sister. And here we are. So I thought, how could I apply this not only to myself, but also to some of the work that we do in terms of planting? I love the phrase that you came up with Sage of planting pleasure seeds that, you know, can maybe the idea of accessing pleasure in this like sexual, you know, like,

Sage D (05:31.978)
Yes.

Sage D (05:36.886)
Here we are! He's arrived!

Sara (05:59.321)
feel my nipples and they're amazing. Like that's not accessible to everyone, right? But a lot of people, these little tiny permission slips to be a more interesting or interested person can feel edgy within itself. And it was something I was like, I wanna do that for myself. And...

Sage D (06:11.52)
you

Sara (06:23.018)
experiment with and feel good and I just played with it myself and that's what I wanted to share my own truth, my own fun, my own pleasure and just kind of see where we go with it.

Sage D (06:33.342)
I love that so much and I really love this idea again of kind of like planting little pleasure seeds in our gardens because I think it can get really easy when we're in our garden to be looking at all of the things that need tending to or adjustments or as we talked about last episode maybe we've planted some pain seeds or paying attention to our pain plants a little bit more than other plants.

And I really love the idea of planting pleasure seeds because it is also the idea that like pleasure grows over time. You become a person who experiences more pleasure the more you do it, right? Our capacity for pleasure, the pleasure in our life, the pleasure we can see, the pleasure that we can feel grows exponentially over time through our patience, through our watering it, through our being with it, to us speaking nicely to it.

Sara (07:12.514)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (07:26.998)
to us tending to it, right? And so if you're listening right now and being like, I feel overwhelmed by the idea of even thinking about pleasure or trying something with pleasure, something to remember is that planting a seed of even being invested or interested or curious about your pleasure will blossom something that is more related to you accessing your pleasure over time.

And so it doesn't matter where you are on the journey, you can literally plant seeds at any time in your journey.

Sara (08:00.152)
Yeah, I completely agree and I love what you're saying and that it just making it something that's important. Because I think often we think that the thing is important is the thing that we need to take away or the thing that we need to work really hard at doing and we very rarely see these as skills and things that are important. If we want loving relationships, there's a skill

Sage D (08:08.566)
It's good.

Sara (08:30.038)
to meeting people. There's a skill to self-regulating when people aren't treating us the way we want to be treated. There's a skill to being angry when our boundaries being, you know, these are skills and they're great skills to have. If we want to feel connected to our home,

There's a skill in growing plants to have tea that makes us happy. Like these are important things and decorating, yeah. All of the things that we're told aren't important because they don't make big companies a ton of money always.

Sage D (09:04.766)
and decorating. Yeah. Yeah.

Sage D (09:14.836)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, something I think a lot about in relationship to even doing these things, I just said decorating your home, right, as a source of pleasure. I used to be someone who actively avoided decorating my homes because I was carrying a story and a belief system around my childhood trauma of like, I don't ever stay anywhere long enough for it to matter, right? And so because I'm rotating and moving through

Sara (09:40.206)
you

Sage D (09:43.018)
different environments or moving a lot or what have you, I don't grow a particular attachment to my home, which means I don't decorate it, which means it doesn't feel pleasurable for me to be there. Right, and so for me, was a really big, it's been a big adjustment over the last probably four years of decorating my home. And now I have a home where I host events and bring clients and all of this stuff. And I cannot tell you how...

deeply meaningful it is to me that the number one comment I get from almost everyone who has come into my home is how warm and inviting and comforting it feels. And I think that that's just a testament to when you prioritize your pleasure, when you plant your seeds in your own garden, the pollination, the smell of the flowers, the vibrance of the colors in your garden, all of that also has a ripple effect.

on creating beauty and love for other people in your life as well and pleasure for them as well because then, you when people come to my home, they feel a sense of pleasure because they feel cozy as well. And so I think it's also really beautiful how pleasure can be a multiplier as well.

Sara (10:55.342)
Can we go down this tangent? Because I have a lot of thoughts about what you just said. But first, having been in your home, it's so true. I I've seen a few of your homes and just walking in, you can see some of your culture with the Japanese inspired rope. You see whimsical flowers that I remember I've written them down because I love the, I forget the photographer's name when you have like these beautiful vulva-esque nature inspired photos.

Sage D (10:57.428)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Sara (11:24.962)
There's people that you are connected to, that you love on the stairwell. There's plants. It's nothing performative. It's just you. There's hibiscus tea. There's the things that you're interested in. There's cozy blankets. It feels personable, not because you're looking through a Pinterest and saying, what would look cozy? It's...

Feels that way because it's authentic to who you are and it's authentic to what you like and the colors that are feeling good to you in that season and the things you're wanting to consume and you're giving permission for it to be a little bit messy. It's not perfect.

It's not everything's not organized in the best way. And you're like, you know what, we can sit on the floor because I don't have a million chairs, but it's still going to be really cozy because I got all these cushions and I just took a bath with rose petals. And so it smells like that in here because I practice what I preach. Like this is literally the experience of entering Sage's home.

Sage D (12:21.206)
Thank you for saying that. That means so much to me. Because I do think what you're saying is so true that your pleasure should be self-focused, right? And I think so much of our pleasure is other focused. Am I pleasing someone else? Am I pleasurable to look at? Am I pleasurable to be with? Am I pleasurable to be around? Like, am I pleasing my partners enough? And I think to your point that when we identify, name, and then own,

our own pleasure, the way that that then gets expressed feels so comforting to be around because it feels so true, right? It doesn't feel performative. It doesn't feel like you're putting on a show or doing anything to make the pleasure there. To your point, it's just what you like. And so you feel that naturally.

Sara (13:13.87)
And I couldn't agree more that it's actually hard to do. It might sound ridiculous, but so last year, my word for the year was Rose Garden because all I wanted to do was make my home things that I liked. And it was a challenge for me because like you, I always lived in transitory spaces. And I had this belief that my...

So the partner that I live with, my nesting partner, that, you know, he's very different than me in terms of he's very minimalistic. He's very, he likes minimalistic design and I'm colorful. I not, I like whimsical eclectic, if that makes sense. Like whimsical but cozy. And I didn't know how to make that look and I just avoided it.

Sage D (14:01.918)
I see. I see.

Sara (14:09.43)
And because I was like, well, anything I do is gonna be wrong and anything I do is gonna overwhelm quote unquote my partner. And it wasn't until my friend, my friend Susan, she said, Sarah, just, it's your house too, paint the wall. What are you talking about? And I was like, okay. And I literally, I painted a wall bright orange.

And it felt so liberating. I cannot describe to you. And from there, all I did was I picked colors that I liked. I painted some things orange, some things green. I put plants. I'm in the process of making a bathroom with these whimsical twinkle lights and greenery. And the house looks so me. And I feel, as a creative person, I can't describe to you how much...

better I feel. I didn't even know that this was something I needed until I did it. Until I walked into my home and I go, every morning I see the morning light come through and it like shines through my little crystals coming that like, you know, make the little iridescent shadows. And I'm so proud of myself that even this morning when I was journaling a little bit, I wrote down, I'm really proud of the way my home looks.

Sage D (15:13.168)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah.

Sara (15:26.466)
This morning, I swear to you that is when I wrote down and so I couldn't be the more timely for this conversation.

Sage D (15:26.624)
Yeah, no.

Sage D (15:34.558)
I love that. I love that so much. And I think you're right that we oftentimes are taught to externalize pleasure as about other people and almost vilified and shamed if we look at it from a place of self, right? The idea of like, I could give myself pleasure or I deserve pleasure, right? Pleasure has always kind of been touted as a thing you give to other people, a thing that you provide for other people, a thing that other people

Sara (15:53.592)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (16:04.66)
get from you. And I think reorienting our orientation to pleasure as for us is really important for myself. It's not just what I can give that is pleasurable or providing pleasure, but also what is pleasurable for me to me. And really realizing that the place that that also has to start is with yourself, right? Like you yourself have to be committed to your own pleasure.

Sara (16:35.0)
to the whimsy of it.

Sage D (16:36.554)
The whimsicalness of it, yes.

Sara (16:39.95)
Do you want to jump in and give it a try? Kind of see what we did. you know, I was listening to this and I did find the original creator. So it was Elizabeth Jean made it mainstream according to what I've heard. And then I found it with In the Meadow podcast. And I really tried to reimagine it in a more pleasure seeds way.

Sage D (16:42.879)
Yeah, let's do it.

Sara (17:09.794)
So maybe you and I, Sage, can even come up with some cute names, because a lot of these I did not come up with. But just you can choose any categories that fit your life. So the categories that I chose for the spring, because this is my first time doing it, and it will be fun. Maybe next season we can talk about how it went. Maybe some of the seeds I decided not to water, decided not to plant, all of that. And what I love about that is not

Sage D (17:35.924)
You know, or change to something else. Yeah.

Sara (17:38.986)
Exactly. It's very light. So I chose a few categories. I know you can see them too. I'm curious if you have the same categories listed when you looked at it or if you kind thought of them as different names.

Sage D (17:41.462)
Yes, we love it.

Sage D (17:56.958)
I came up with different categories for mine, yours were really helpful to look at. So my categories are different, but a little bit aligned.

Sara (18:06.03)
Okay, what do you think is the best way to do this? Like go through each one? Do you want to?

Sage D (18:09.494)
I'd love to hear maybe if you want to share a little bit about yours and then I'll share a little bit about mine. So like maybe a high level overview of what you have in yours.

Sara (18:17.902)
Okay, cool. So do you want me to share like a high level overview of what I set for the next season or what I kind of feel like I did last season? I'm just trying to think what's the best way here.

Sage D (18:29.45)
What's in the notes that you have?

Sara (18:33.014)
Okay, so for this upcoming season. Okay, so I chose for the upcoming season a few different categories. So I thought of one would be a study in self care and love. The next category, which I think is adorable was named by Victoria in the Meta podcast Hobbitry. So like things you do inside your house.

Sage D (18:58.325)
Ew.

Sara (19:00.494)
The third category relationships and sex and then the fourth one creative exploration and so I Tried to limit myself to three in each category, but honestly one in each category is great. I'm just a person that Loves to make lists I have I'm just a list lover and I've just let myself be a list lover and not put shame into the list Making it's okay if I don't do all the things on the list

Sage D (19:22.998)
We love it. Yes, we love a We love a list. I love a list.

Sara (19:32.527)
So yeah, so in study of self care and love, these are three that I put in there. The first one was, I noticed, so over the weekend, I went to this place called Hostel in the Forest, which is more hippie than it even sounds. It is a hostile, but I'm trying to explain. It is,

If you've never been to a hostel, then I feel like in the US, people imagine hostels as horror movies or something, and internationally, that's not how they're seen. it's kind of glamping. There's all these tree houses. It's absolutely beautiful. But the transformative part of it, and I've taken two different people, I keep it very close to my heart because it's...

Sage D (20:07.894)
I

Sara (20:25.184)
a magical experience that anybody I've ever taken there has also had an amazing experience. And the big part that creates that are the people that go and leaving your phone in the car. So you leave your phone in the car and you just exist. You just exist with the people and everyone is just naturally making eye contact, naturally reading books, naturally having the sun on their face, you know what I mean? And it's just very healing in that way. And I just found myself

Sage D (20:50.89)
Yeah.

Sara (20:54.712)
doing movement just because it felt good in this beautiful room they call the Glass House and writing poetry and I could even read one later, we end up having time and that feels good that I wrote, I actually wrote one called My Glass House, which I feel like might be good fitting. I'm gonna write it down so I don't forget. But it was just a really wonderful weekend and it just really connected me to my body and one of the, one of the,

Sage D (21:10.39)
Ugh.

Sara (21:22.74)
rules or one of the signs. They have like a sign that has rules quote unquote when you first walk in. And it said on the bottom in this space don't apologize for yourself. And I really took that to heart of trying when I was there for the weekend to not apologize for myself. And I found it so hard because I constantly apologize.

And I find all these different patterns in which I do that. It even can be sometimes gender specific or people specific. Often with men, I find myself being like, here I am, you're welcome. But then with women, I'm like, here I am, I'm sorry, is it okay? Can I sit down? Do you like me? Will you be my friend? Like it could be people specific, it can be place specific. And so I really try to work on it just make a friend.

Sage D (22:09.002)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sara (22:17.6)
This is just one on my list, which is what I was telling you is like I'm struggling a little bit with how deep I should go. I'm just going to try to give myself permission to not apologize even right now and just hold space and just trust that it's okay. Trust in the editing gods. But yeah, learning self-compassion and to laugh at myself was the first one that I had on there. I don't really know how you work on this skill, but I think just even putting self...

awareness on it of something as a skill that I want to work on is feels really good and expect this to get so deep Sage so quickly. I'll go through these these three and then I would love maybe to hear some of yours before we go into the next section but that's feel like a good okay the second one that I put in this category was

Sage D (23:04.893)
Yeah

Sara (23:12.226)
to learn a little bit more about neurodivergence, because I felt like that went along with apologizing for myself. And I'd like to learn there's this wonderful person, and I, let me get her name. I always like to make sure I meant to write it down, I'll get it. But there's this wonderful person that I follow that, that,

writes and does a lot of thought leadership work in the connection between intimacy and ADHD. And I've been diving a little bit more deeper into her work. And then the third one I have is creating my own personal Sabbath because the weekend in Hostel in the Forest was so meaningful to me that I was like, how can I do this in a smaller way? I am a Jewish person, but I am not, I don't celebrate.

the Sabbath every weekend or anything like that. But I thought, how can I do this even if it was a few hours or from a certain time until the next morning on Friday night or where I just see what happens, just put my phone away and just exist for the night. No plans, no nothing. Just exist and do what feels good, eat what feels good, smell what smells good.

Sage D (24:23.658)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (24:32.022)
Mm-hmm.

Sara (24:32.626)
and just exist and how can I learn the skill of having a personal Sabbath and I'm excited to dive into this book that I purchase on a personal Sabbath. I really would like to...

get the name of that as well if you can give me a second. I know we can probably edit out the thank you.

Sage D (24:56.949)
Yeah.

No, no, we can edit that. Take your time.

Sara (25:07.374)
You can hear me, huh?

Sara (25:28.77)
The Sabbath Way. I have not read this book by.

Was that the one that I was thinking about reading? Hold on, let me double check.

I haven't read this book so I'm not recommending it yet and I can let you know how goes.

Sara (26:32.878)
Yeah, The Sabbath Way by Travis West. Like I said, you might have even been the one that recommended it to me, it's been in my, yeah, because it's been in my list of things to read, but I haven't, I haven't.

Sage D (26:36.086)
I think I've heard of this before.

Sage D (26:41.365)
No, I don't think it was me.

Sage D (26:49.184)
Yeah, I think I've heard of it, I think.

Sara (26:55.222)
And that, while I was looking up the things I wanted to look up, I can actually tell you the other person's name. It is Dr. Leanne Bornman. She has a really wonderful podcast as well on ADHD and sex, and I just adore her. met her at a conference once, and she has some really wonderful work in that area.

Sage D (27:16.502)
That's wonderful.

Sage D (27:20.118)
Yay! were you finished? Were you complete? Or were you- did you have more you want to share?

Sara (27:25.538)
Yeah, well, I would love to just pause there and hear your thoughts on those things or, you know, your, if you made a category for yourself, I don't know what the best way it may be here to organize it, but I just wanna give you some breath as well. But that was my first category and the things that I put in there.

Sage D (27:48.16)
Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I actually really loved that you brought this topic forward, because I had been kind of thinking about what I wanted to do for 2026 and thinking about some things and stuff like that. so if you've been on this podcast, then you know definitely this is my year of self-governance, like really finding my self-governance, my self-agency, my autonomy, really harnessing my discernment and kind of pulling myself into kind of...

Really knowing myself, a recent relationship I was in really taught me how much I don't know how to answer the question, what do you want? Oftentimes my wants are dictated by what other people want around me or what I think that they want or anticipating what they want. And that's left me in a place where I oftentimes don't know what I want, where I'm not clear on what it is that I want or what I want to be doing or...

when I wanna be receiving. And so I'm really working on this year of really trying to find my self-governance and my knowing again. And so really thinking about like a lot of solo dates and taking myself out and going to do things that I enjoy, right? That aren't dictated about, does somebody else also wanna do this? Does somebody else find this pleasurable? Does somebody else think this is cool or interesting?

and just do the things that I find interesting and do the things that bring me joy. So that's a big one for me. I'm doing a lot around creativity right now. then lastly, also expanding myself in my intimacy container. I think there's lots of ways that I'm doing that this year. I did a little bout of abstinence for about 60 days.

Sara (29:18.062)
Mm.

Sage D (29:39.206)
I am thinking about moving slower in my connections where I'm seeking more alignment versus approval. Something fun that I've just decided I wanted to do is also just become a little sex pot this year. And what I've been by that is just like,

Sage D (29:59.728)
get my intimacy skills up both physically and mentally and emotionally. So I got a book, and of course it's over there and I can't get it right now, a book about how to essentially be so in tune with your vaginal walls that you can make your vaginal walls like pulsate and grip and roll and things like that. so thinking about that, working on my seduction skills, working on

you know, how I want to be in the bedroom and how I want to show up in my intimate containers and really becoming this like sexiest sex pop version of myself and really learning a lot about my sexuality and about how I show up in intimate spaces, especially going to parties and like things like that now that I don't have a partner and what that looks like and who am I as a sexual being when I'm, you know, single versus partnered.

So yeah, so I think that's a lot of what's been coming up for me in terms of little seeds that I'm definitely planting.

Sara (31:07.234)
Well, first off, we all need this book, but especially being a pelvic floor physical therapist, I'm like very curious now because all I, large part of what I do is help people with lots of different anatomy, whether it be inner or outer anatomy to learn how to roll and contract and whatever they want to do with their pelvic floor expand. so I need to know this book. So we're having to get that before the end of today. And I also love the term sex pot because the idea of

Sage D (31:13.429)
Yeah

Sara (31:37.135)
creating even a date for yourself of like, what's going in the pot tonight? And it can fluctuate literally, what am I gonna eat? What am I gonna smell? Because it surprises me to hear that about you Sage that you're like, I don't know what I want because I feel like you do. You know what you like to taste. You know what you like to smell. You know what you like to wear. You know what you like to hear. And it's just like putting it together in a more whimsical way and giving yourself permission to just name it. I feel like is the...

Sage D (31:40.843)
and food.

Sara (32:05.344)
liberating thing. I've just been like, yeah, when I put all that together and I name it, now it feels like the paint on the wall. Now it feels like mine.

Sage D (32:16.734)
Yeah, and I think what I am also realizing too, to your point, is that like, yeah, I do actually know what I want and speaking that and naming that and like demanding that is so hard for me. And I think that goes back to what we've been talking about this whole episode, right? That my pleasure was always seen as an extension of someone else or in reflection to someone else or what have you. And so even though I know...

that I'd rather watch this movie over that movie because you want to watch that movie, I guess I'll just say yes, right? Instead of saying, no, I don't want to watch that movie and then finding another movie that is pleasurable for me as well as pleasurable for the other person versus sacrificing my pleasure for the other person's, right? So it's an interesting arc of a journey I'm going on this year of like, yeah, I do actually feel very firm in my knowing of what I want, but I think I actually grow a lot of resentment in my connections because I don't.

I sacrifice a lot. I like succumb to the feeling of like, even though I know what I want, they want something else and so I should give them what they want.

Sara (33:21.422)
Hmm.

Sara (33:25.79)
And I'm also hearing maybe like permission to even get more creative with some of those things and like tapping into that. You know, the other day I had just this really wonderful dinner, which I feel like there's so much magic in dinners, especially of gatherings of like women, non-binary, feminine, any form of queer spaces, but we just laughed. was such a lovely dinner.

Sage D (33:32.106)
Yes.

Yes.

Sage D (33:44.106)
I agree.

Yes. Yeah.

Sara (33:55.567)
This one person that was there, she was just really quirky. And she talked about this book she was making, just casually talked about this, about how she loved cheese. And she was making this book. every time, because she loves to journal since she was a little kid, and every single time she was eating cheese, she was going to take a little picture, like with her phone, print it later, put it in her journal, and how she'd already started, where she was when she ate the cheese, what was paired with the cheese. She's learning more about cheese.

Sage D (34:22.986)
So cute.

Sara (34:24.866)
And I was like, that is adorable. And we're just all craving, just craving these kind of hobbies, craving this kind of connection, craving that kind of slowness, craving the kind of non-performative, like it's just in my journal, it's not online, craving this kind of just slowing down and connecting to cheese, like connecting to something small. And then I just started to think like, what is my cheese? I

Do I have a cheese? Is there something I'm that whimsical about? I have no idea. Maybe other people see me that way and can see the light in me in that way, but I was like, I'm just amazed. So all week long I've been thinking, what is my cheese? What a fun thing that we can do. There's something about allowing creativity in our desires that...

Sage D (35:07.199)
I'd love this.

Sara (35:16.674)
really helps us to name them and play with them and really make them your own without it being performative, without it being about someone else and just like in the most whimsical, permissive, silly way possible.

Sage D (35:31.222)
I love it.

Sara (35:32.815)
We should try to think of our cheese for our next podcast. Anyway, the next category, do want me move on to the next category? So I had a few different categories in here. So the first one was study and self care and love, which I guess was the bit deeper one, the truth one as Sage says. The next one was hobbitry. So things that you might do in your home. I've been into, so I got hurt and when I got hurt,

I got into making these blankets. I felt really anxious, so I was into making these blankets with my hands. just, the hand knitted blankets were, and by the way, the blankets are a big hit, but I have a problem because a lot of people love these blankets, and I have this list of people that are like, Sarah, what about me? You've known me for 20 years, and I love that blanket, so.

You know, whoever said that hobbitry or making gifts or making things at home was a less expensive hobby, they lied. It is not. But it has been really fun. It has been really sensory. I am really proud of myself that I can make these really soft blankets. I even made one for my close friend, Ryan. He had this.

beautiful, luxurious wedding in Ft. Lauderdale. Just imagine the most glam wedding you've ever been to. I felt like I was at two princes wedding. It was just so, it was unbelievably gorgeous. Everyone, by the way Sage, this is where I learned, side note here, it's worth it. This is where I learned that black tie doesn't mean fancy, it means literal black tie.

Sage D (37:02.161)
wow.

Sara (37:20.642)
because my partner Robert was with me who you've met and he's looking at me and he goes, Sarah, did you notice anything different about me and everyone else? And I go, what? And he's like, Sarah, do you notice that I'm not in black and everyone else is? And I hysterically laughed. was like, no, I didn't notice. He wasn't even in a tie. And I walked in, nobody else had gifts. Cause I guess at fancy weddings, people don't really give a lot of gifts. I don't know, maybe they're all gift cards or something. But I walk in with this massive rolled blanket and it's like,

Sage D (37:30.774)
You

Sara (37:48.719)
I made like a king size blanket. So beautiful. I'm really proud of my blanket, but it's straight up is I didn't know what to put it in. I put it in like this big bag. And then we put it on the gift table where nobody else put a gift and they hide it. They hide it underneath the table where later I find the wedding coordinator and I go to the wedding coordinator. I'm like, Hey, I just want to make sure that Ryan gets to take this gift home.

Sage D (37:58.558)
Ha ha ha!

Sara (38:15.726)
And she's like, okay, do you mind passing it to me? I crawl underneath the table in my dress and high heels. Well, you me, I don't really wear heels, but my one inch little wedges. And I get this big bag out and I hand it her and she looks at me with disbelief and she's just like, what is that? A dead body? Just what is this thing? But after all of that, I will say, he did say he loved the blanket. So these are very warm and cozy.

Sage D (38:22.102)
You

Sara (38:40.482)
But I thought, okay, well, what other hobbitry things can I make at home that make people happy and can be gifts, can be for myself, can just be nourishing? And these are the ones that I've been wanting to do. I really wanna make some tea with herbs that I grow. I've been wanting to do this a long time, but I keep killing herbs. So I am open to feedback here, because I feel really bad when my plants die, but I would love to learn how to make my own.

teas and feel witchy in that way. I want to learn how to make my own bone broths. I have done it before. Like you know the really gelatin ones and then freeze it. I just feel really good when I sip on bone broth. I drink them a lot. It makes my whole body feel good and so I do eat it every day but I want to make my own. And the last one I had was I ate my whole home one day off to do like the

Sage D (39:15.766)
Me too.

Sara (39:37.859)
What was that MTV show about when you like show, yeah, we're gonna have to do Sarah Cribs and I'll show you all my plants. But I'll show you my plants in my blankets. But you can even take care of the plants in my home. I'd like to be able to say like what they are and just know that they are doing well. But luckily I have outsourced due to ADHD that so there is.

Sage D (39:40.022)
Okay.

Sage D (39:44.512)
Yes.

Sara (40:01.678)
someone that comes to my home that helps me with cleaning and I have asked her if she would also help me with watering my plants, which is the best thing I've ever decided to do. So thank you, Emily, for keeping my plants alive.

Sage D (40:11.22)
love that. Amazing, amazing. I love that. Yay. I'm also, I'm really into this hobbitry topic. think doing things at home, making things at home. I'm really into cycle syncing right now. So I'm like trying to figure out my nutrition related to that. So yeah, I love this. I love the hobbitry one.

Are we feeling, I'm looking at the time, so I feel like we probably need to move to the next sections, because I think we still have three more sections to get to, yeah?

Sara (40:46.112)
I think it's two, but I'm not in a rush, but if there's something else you wanted to add, like I want you to feel, okay.

Sage D (40:54.836)
No, I feel complete.

Sara (40:59.561)
Um, okay. So yeah, the next section I had, so studying self care, hobbitry. And the next one is the fun one for us, right? The relationships and sex. So I was listening to a podcast with Mark Brackett, Dr. Mark Brackett, who I think he's a professor at Yale and he wrote the book. The app is called How We Feel, but the book is called.

I'm blanking. Anyway, it's about having words for your feeling. Like what is the difference between anxiety and shame or fear? And for me, I've had a really hard time with that. So I've been using the app probably twice a day. It's been really helpful for me to just name my feelings, have a little bit more vocabulary. And I wanna get a little bit better at that because what I personally have found is that I try to guess when I'm...

When I, I often feel discomfort around, maybe I notice that somebody else is a little uncomfortable or that's how I'm perceiving it and I temperature track, is everything okay? Am I doing anything wrong? Instead of just saying, feel nervous. I feel, and so I wanna get better at that. So that's something I am working on when it comes to my relationships and sex.

When it comes to relationships, would love to, like I mentioned the dinner party, I was invited to one. I wanna have my own little dinner party with friends. I wanna be, I have a hard time when I host just being present and allowing things to be messy, allowing things to not be perfect, not needing my hands and my body to be busy, like just being and just existing with friends. And I just wanna exist with friends and have food not.

a ton of activities, maybe this is Neuro Spicy Girl problems, but just exist. And that's something I wanna do this season. And sex wise, I think I did, yeah, I changed this one. wanted to, I know Sage, you're really great at this, but I'd love to create a scene for, I wanna feel confident.

Sara (43:23.578)
in doing a whole scene with one rope, where I can use one rope for Shabari and do a whole scene that feels very fluid and dynamic and not like still not performative, it's just like another, the, feel very confident and like I'm really able to take the lead and move with the music and the flow and the other person and listen to the other person's body and the other person's just really able to let go with just one rope.

and I'm really able to do the body mechanics in a ways that feel good to my body, even given some of my own personal, I'm a physical therapist, but I personally just had surgery, so it's like practicing what I teach in terms of how to do body mechanics differently at this time. I know that you created those awesome courses for my program on using Shabari even as a, and using rope.

as assistive devices, which was just amazing. I've never seen anybody do that, like using rope as ways, let's say you're having a physical limitation as a way to be an assistive device. Even let's say somebody has a spinal cord injury. If you've ever seen an assistive devices, they're not always the most beautiful. They're not very sexy. They haven't really changed since like the 1950s. And so using rope to be connective and really fun ways.

It's just amazing and so I want to use it in my own play for my own physical limitations that I'm struggling with right now.

Sage D (44:56.446)
I love that. I love rope as a tool for just connection and intimacy. So I love that you're wanting to explore that more and that that's feeling like really calling to you. yeah. Ugh. It's so good.

Sara (45:13.277)
Do you want me to move on to the last one? I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add or a little...

Sage D (45:16.982)
I didn't have any more, no.

Sara (45:18.956)
Okay, great. I just want to make sure I leave space for you, Sage, because I love your mind. Okay, so the last one I had was like art and creative exploration. And yeah, it'll be fun to kind of go back and just see which of these, like I said, I love to make lists. Don't always, sometimes you look back at the list and it's really funny. I remember I made a list of all the things I wanted to do when I went to New Zealand and I literally did none of them, but had an amazing experience.

Sage D (45:25.878)
You

Sara (45:44.143)
It was just like the intention of how I wanted to feel and I did feel that way. How I wanted to feel was skinny-dip. I wanted to feel like I could swim naked and leap and have fun and I did get to do that. I literally went bungee jumping. I literally went swimming naked, you know, but I didn't do a lot of the things I wanted to do like hiking Milford Sound because of the weather, right? So it's okay.

And that's how I think this might go. But I am feeling really motivated and excited because these are seeds of pleasure. They're things that I authentically really want to do. So for art, I said, I love to sing and I want to learn a jazz standard. I just bought a, so I went to an art festival and this.

Sage D (46:25.344)
Have fun.

Sara (46:32.078)
had these beautiful photos printed with film soup. Have you heard of film soup, Sage? Okay, me neither, which was like, she basically took film and developed it, and then you just, okay, I didn't grow up using film, all right, so millennial here, so I might say something real stupid, but you basically take the film and you destroy it in film soup, and then it makes it have this naturally really cool effect.

Sage D (46:38.326)
Mm-mm.

Sara (47:01.55)
And I just want to get back to like hand hobbies. So I just bought this film camera and I'm very excited. It was like $20 off of eBay and I'm really excited to learn how to take pictures with the film camera and then you literally destroy the film with like matcha tea and oranges or something and then develop it and hopefully magic happens. So that's something I want to try.

Sage D (47:21.472)
That's very interesting.

Sara (47:25.364)
and the last one is maybe something we could even do, but I wanna learn how to sing really simple rounds, like songs that are just for fun, just for healing, not for performance, not for an audition, just a simple round of, and even make up my own, that use three simple chords and just keep it.

Sage D (47:33.587)
Yeah, yeah

Sage D (47:44.715)
Mm-hmm.

Sara (47:51.341)
you know, three simple chords, one little line of a poem and just repeat repetitive and just find healing in my voice. It's not something I love to sing, but I've never really used it for my own personal just healing. And it was like, why not? Like just let's simplify it and just have fun.

Sage D (48:00.532)
I love that.

Sage D (48:06.794)
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. love that. Yay. So many good seeds. So many good seeds for the spring for pleasure. I'm so excited. I'm curious to see what we both end up doing. I think it's gonna be fun.

Sara (48:25.708)
Me too. And thank you for being so open to this. I know it's a little bit of a quirky, and maybe, I don't know, I know we maybe spoke a little bit longer on some of these ideas, but really just, I think the theme and the through line trying to get across is just in experiencing life and that we both work in sexual wellness. We both work in spaces that a lot of people

especially right now, there's just, there is a political nature to the work that we do. You can't separate the two. There is heaviness to the work that we do. You can't separate the two. But just like allowing the through line of experiencing life, because that's really what it's about. How can we help ourselves? How can we help others to just tap into experiencing life and what it has to offer?

And what a fun way, I couldn't think of even a better thing than modeling my own truth and where I'm at now of personally struggling. I'm personally struggling to move my body. I'm personally struggling with my own mental health because movement really helped me with my own anxiety. And I'm like, okay, my extroverted self, myself that wanted to go climb mountains has to stay home. Myself that is now struggling with some chronic health stuff.

What can I do at home? How can I change to having this relationship with myself, with others, with my body, with sex that is changing, that's evolving in ways that I didn't expect but might really grow into something beautiful?

Sage D (50:08.266)
I love too that you're talking about change and how inevitable it is and why things like this are so important. Just because you plant seeds now this year doesn't mean that you won't plant seeds again, right? These seeds will water and grow over time. But part of getting comfortable with planting seeds is also about knowing that your garden needs tending to. And to your point, sometimes you're gonna have to pull plants that you're never gonna see again. Flowers that you're never gonna...

smell again, pleasure that you're never gonna feel again because your body is incapable now for whatever reason. And I think knowing that you can plant more seeds at any time is an important part of being able to tend to your garden and not keep weeds for way too long or flowers that are dead for too long or to prioritize things in your garden that don't.

Sara (50:42.99)
Mmm.

Sage D (51:04.339)
that need to be let go, right? You need the soil for something new.

Sara (51:09.422)
That is such a great point that I'm really glad you said because I don't know if that came across, but the idea, at least for me in this is I wanna give it a try doing this seasonally. So this is my spring and then in the spring, I wanna look back at this and see how it went and it would be even more fun if we can chat about it. And reset one for, I had to sing the song.

Spring, summer, I'm like, here we are. Like what comes next? But you know, what then goes in the summer, but what an important remembering that I just wrote down when I do that is what does need to be removed before going into, when I do think about the summer. Because that is something I struggle with. can, just on a personal level, I can struggle sometimes with...

Sage D (51:38.334)
I'm sorry.

Sara (52:05.838)
seeing what needs to go.

Sage D (52:08.125)
Mm-hmm, me too, me too. Yeah, it's hard sometimes because when things are in your garden, you want to keep them. They're beautiful, they smell good, they provided you something at some point, right? And so, yeah, but some things are overgrown and need to be cut back and need to be completely removed or, you know, flowers are, there are definitely some flowers that are completely dead and need to be, you know, completely taken up from the soil so you can plant a new one. And so, yeah, I think it's important to remember those things.

so that we don't hold on too tightly to anything.

Sara (52:40.758)
Yeah. Yeah. Me too.

Well Sage, kind of separately, I you can kind of edit things out. That was the, you know, we can leave it there. I did have the second point about, you know, is slowing down and all of that, but it doesn't, you know, I would just want to have authentic conversation. Like it doesn't, we don't have to do all three points. You know, we can kind of just end with the experiencing over proving. That's fine too, it's all good.

Sage D (52:52.266)
Yeah, yeah,

Sage D (53:16.342)
Yeah, I think we can combine these next two points if we just want to kind of like bring them together. do. I am curious to hear your thoughts on this. I like what you wrote. So I am just curious in general about the slowing down part. And then I did put in something for the experiencing over proving. I said, instead of rushing toward pleasure, we cultivate it like a garden. Desire grows when we slow down, pay attention and tend to it with curiosity. So that's just kind of something I put for how we might wrap.

Sara (53:16.524)
We can make the second.

Sage D (53:45.376)
things together. yeah, wherever you want to take it.

Sara (53:49.251)
Well, we can just go to there and end with number three or we can go into number two where we just talk a little bit about how dating is going and that's where I would talk about that. So if you wanna talk a little bit about dating and I would talk about this.

Sage D (54:04.888)
is point two specifically about dating?

Sara (54:08.492)
I think that would be a good segue of just like how we're doing, how's dating going and it's, let's just save that for when the energy is there for that. think that's what my gut's telling me.

Sage D (54:19.326)
Okay, so you want to go to the experiencing over proving?

Sara (54:26.176)
I think so, that's what my gut is telling me. I mean, I'm happy to, if you're in the mood to do more bantering, we can start to talk just like, how are you doing? How's life? How's relationships? And I think that we can go into that point too. I just don't know where you're at in your head space and how you're feeling.

Sage D (54:28.246)
Let's do it.

Sage D (54:41.398)
Let's go to experiencing over proving. And we can just kind of wrap that and then we can go into our normal banter.

Sara (54:44.238)
Okay.

Sara (54:48.226)
Okay.

Sara (54:54.648)
So yay, okay. So this was really fun, Sage. I know that we, you know, I'm really curious if anybody else listening ends up doing their own spring intentions or has thoughts on this. I think a really great through line through all of this work was just this idea that it's experiencing, like it's experiential of life over proving and this idea that we're

not trying to perform in our sex, perform in our house. It doesn't have to be the pink color that the next home buyer is gonna love. It doesn't have to be a performance of the cheese book that we're gonna show on the dating thing. how do we, it is actually really hard to wire our brain to just do things that feel good just for us, even though we all talk about how that would be a great idea. And so how can we experience more instead of

you know, or prove that...

Sara (56:09.582)
Sorry, I'm losing my train of thought of what I meant by proving.

Sage D (56:13.726)
Take your time, take your time.

Sara (56:25.496)
Yeah, just like proving that you're, I think what I meant more is performance. Yeah, sex, more of experiencing over performing. Performing what somebody else might like or performing a pleasure for some, an audience in general.

Sage D (56:49.46)
Yeah, I love what you're saying about this. And I think what's really coming up for me is like this idea of presence, right? I think when we're experiencing pleasure truly, we're like very present with what is happening. And I think something I'm really thinking about a lot in terms of being more present is what does it mean to be present, right? Is it?

paying more attention, is it being more curious, is it not reaching for my phone when I feel anxious or like there's a lull in conversation, is it holding eye contact a little bit longer than I normally do because that makes me a little uncomfortable to be seen. And really thinking about your ability and capacity to experience pleasure is directly related to your ability to be present.

If you are not able to be present, you cannot actually receive pleasure because pleasure is an experience. It is something that is happening to you that you intrinsically internalize as something that brings you comfort or joy or something good inside you. And in order to actually experience that, you have to be present to it. And so I think I just want to remind folks that in order to actually truly be receptive to pleasure, to know your pleasure, to find your pleasure,

You have to be willing to be present to it and to be present to yourself long enough to feel it.

Sara (58:22.542)
You're always so good at putting like really great words. Do you write too Sage?

Sage D (58:26.486)
Thank you.

Sara (58:30.99)
Do you write? Like, do you write poems and all that too?

Sage D (58:31.156)
Yeah. I am such a writer. I love writing poems. It's so funny. If we want to start talking about what we're reading and stuff, this actually kind of dovetails into that. I'm reading this book called Right Now, Fear is My Homeboy. Yeah, Fear is My Homeboy. And it is a great book of I'm only on chapter one, but it is like just been a great book of like

reminding me how much my fear has held me back and continues to hold me back.

And just this idea of like, just this idea of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're so cute. Just this idea of like.

Sara (59:14.666)
Did you hear my belly?

Sage D (59:21.878)
how success adverse I am or like adverse I am to receiving pleasure or receiving success or abundance or goodness sometimes and how that keeps me in this like.

loop of my own pain and really trying to...

overcome that a lot right now. And really realizing how much my fear really does keep me kind of stuck there.

Sara (59:53.657)
Yeah, do you mind if I ask more? Like what do you mean? Like an example or something?

Sage D (01:00:03.894)
So I've always been somebody that really likes non-fiction books. I've never really been a fiction book reader. Like fiction is fine. We love a good little world situation, but I've always really liked non-fiction books because it's usually been self-help, self-development growth of some kind. And so it's always been a lot of personal storytelling. And I find that to be really beautiful and really relatable and really, I really like consuming it.

And I think that there is a calling inside me that wants to be a writer in a nonfiction way, sharing my story, sharing my experiences, sharing things. And I've now tried to start writing three different types of books like that. And there's just something in me that just stops me every single time. And the more I read these books where people are just like, no, I literally just sat down and wrote this or like I wrote this while I was like living my life every couple of days, I just write a chapter or whatever.

Just really sitting with myself, like what the fuck is getting me to this place of like just not sitting down and writing a seven page book. It's seven chapters. Like what? It's seven, I used to write hundreds and hundreds of page papers for college all the time. Like what are you talking about? Why am I telling myself a story I can't write a 200 page book?

And this fear that like, it's not good enough, it won't sell, the stories aren't interesting enough, I'm not interesting enough, I don't have anything interesting to say, nobody cares what I have to say, I'm gonna humiliate myself by putting myself out there, what if nobody buys the book? Like there's just all of this stuff and...

Sage D (01:01:38.654)
It's just really, and even in my connections to my relationships, I realized for a long time there was a lot of fear of going all in too much, or being too into someone, or being too invested, or being too much, then it failing, or getting your heart broken, or all these being left, or whatever.

Sage D (01:01:59.146)
And I talk about this in my work a lot with shame, which is that like shame.

how we feel about our desires is ultimately how we act on our desires, right? If I don't feel worthy enough, if I feel shameful, if I feel that I don't deserve something, I'm not gonna take the risk. I'm not gonna do the thing because why would I? And I'm really realizing how much I don't take risks because I keep telling myself this story of like, why would I? Because I'm literally like my biggest ops. And...

Yeah, I'm just getting to a place of kind of being done with that.

Sara (01:02:37.08)
Hmm. Can I challenge you? Because I am curious what your, even if you don't end up writing it, there's not going to be, this does not have to be your announcement of like the bag over the wall or whatever the metaphor is. I'm just curious what the book is that's in the back of your head. The Sage book.

Sage D (01:02:56.318)
It's not one book, it's like eight books. It's like so many thoughts and ideas and things that I wanna write about, right? Like my stories, like a memoir, I wanna write about sexual shame. I wanna write about like somatic healing work in community. Like there's just so much I wanna write about. I think like a lot of the core...

is around like my dating history and a lot of the like self-sabotaging and like really concerning behaviors I've exhibited in dating and relationships because I wanted to be chosen because I wanted to find love like whatever.

Sara (01:03:36.559)
So yeah, the through line of all of your ideas is that there's a through line to your own truth and your own personal experiences in how you might think about a broader topic like shame, for example, and that's what makes it feel so vulnerable. I can really relate because is it okay if I plug a little bit? Because I want to, I just, okay, so I, where is it? I literally.

Sage D (01:03:45.685)
Yes.

Sage D (01:03:51.124)
Yeah.

Sage D (01:03:57.803)
Yes.

Sara (01:04:03.918)
just published a book and it is the Amazon people keep giving me a little bit of a hard time with the cover. So by the time this is published it should be on Amazon. So it might be the day one. I hope that would be amazing. And I was terrified. So it is...

Sage D (01:04:21.362)
It's so exciting!

Sara (01:04:25.518)
I also have a list of books that I wanted to write and I would not have been able to do this without a friend of mine. So I have a friend and she actually helps people do this. I'm gonna mention her. Her name is Callie Williams and she is the workbook expert, I think is the name of her business, but she helps people to do this. But without her, I wouldn't have been able to because it was just having someone say, no, that's a good idea.

that's unique. so anyway, I made mine an experiential workbook instead of a, you know, I think when you talk about sex or relationships, so much of it is in an experience and not like, even the way that you teach, you're always talking a story and that story is often a lesson, right? And so it can be really invulnerable to teach in that way. And I wanted this to be

more of an experience that you're finding through yourself versus a workbook or versus a book that's like a how to do something. So it's called Heart to Heart, which is an acronym, a workbook, thank you, a workbook for people navigating pelvic floor challenges who want to embrace play and bring joy back to the bedroom. And it's all about

Sage D (01:05:34.144)
That's so cute.

Sara (01:05:46.435)
navigate finding what we're talking about today like finding the words the things that you like knowing what you desire especially it really can be for anyone but especially for people that have had experiences of pelvic floor concerns being blocks and i made it experiential and what's really cool is that joseph my partner who you know he did all of the drawings and they're adorable so he was the illustrator

I'm gonna show you some because they're so cute. Like he's just such an amazing. I could not have done this with others is my point. Like sometimes we have our ideas and we just get in our own way and all we need is just somebody to say, you know what, that's a great idea. Let me just like boost you a little bit. Here's a, this is like a banana. But they're honest. He did.

Sage D (01:06:41.796)
my gosh, so cute.

Sara (01:06:44.418)
He did all of the drawings. It's just like every single page is just like, and then so, and then in what you're saying, I included examples, I call them heart to heart story times, where this one is called, this story is actually not in the book anymore. This is an older edition. I actually changed the story. So if you are watching this video, you will not see this story in the book. But I included personal stories and it felt so vulnerable to do that, like to write.

Sage D (01:06:47.978)
So cute.

Sage D (01:07:03.894)
I'm sorry.

Sara (01:07:13.838)
personal stories that were connected to that section. And honestly, I think sometimes you just need another person, like another person to just be like that, no, that one first, it's a great idea, just do it. And then, nope, on this day we're gonna meet and let me see it, let me see what you started with. And someone to do your drawings and like just, especially creative people, think once you sometimes, sometimes it starts with the cover, like my graphic designer.

Sage D (01:07:28.096)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (01:07:40.682)
Yeah.

Sara (01:07:42.297)
Her name is Lain Fortinez, she's amazing. Sometimes I just start with the graphic and once I see the graphic, I'm like, okay, now I have to write the book. It's almost like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, yeah, like people talk about, I've never done the whole wedding thing, but people talk about, well, now that I have the dress, I gotta go, I'm gonna have to go find a place to wear it.

Sage D (01:07:51.99)
Mm-hmm

We start, yeah, yeah.

Sage D (01:08:02.76)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that you wrote a book. Thank you for telling me so that I can promote it for you. That's so exciting.

Sara (01:08:13.55)
Thank you, that's probably my, well this was my first place sharing it and this might be the first place somebody hears it and can buy it. So that would be really exciting. If you do hear this and support me, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Sage D (01:08:18.038)
Yeah.

Thank you for telling us. Thank you for telling us. my gosh, that's so exciting. I love it. love it. love it. I love it. What else is going on for you? How are you? How are things?

Sara (01:08:29.026)
Thank you.

Sara (01:08:38.028)
Right? The honesty part of just like talking authentically is hard. I'm like, how am I? Especially me, I'm a process out louder and it's so hard for me to just really ask myself that genuinely.

Sara (01:08:56.085)
I am doing well. I, how do I say, I feel a lot of duality because I really do feel a lot of love in my days and my life and my relationships, but I am struggling with my mental health. And so sometimes when things are going well, but internally you're not feeling so great, you...

I'm like, well, what's wrong with me? Why? Why every, look at this. Like, look at this, this is beautiful. Why? And so I personally am just struggling a little bit with finding solutions, finding the care I need, getting care for those things can sometimes be hard. Getting the right care can be a challenge. Finding the right doctor, all of those things. But overall doing well, I'm...

The sex and relationships part has been good. I think it has been really limiting in terms of not being able to be as free in my body, which is something I teach. so having to learn myself, it feels so vulnerable when I can't move freely. It's distracting. So yeah, of course I can do a different position.

but it just feels distracting and it definitely takes away, like I definitely wouldn't wanna play with a new partner, for example. There was a girl that was interested in doing more like, you know, sensual kink dungeon type of stuff, non-genital related stuff. And I was just like, I have no interest, not because I'm not interested in this person, not because I'm not interested in those experiences.

but because it is so distracting that it is so vulnerable to exist in those spaces right now that I don't want to be that level of vulnerable with somebody I don't know or somebody I don't know well and hold that space for them. So just really that duality of working in that space but also struggling in some ways that are unique that I haven't struggled before is different and it's hard.

Sage D (01:10:54.394)
Thank you.

Sage D (01:11:11.572)
Yeah, I'm thinking a lot about seasons while you're talking to this idea, sometimes you're just in different seasons around your body or around your sex life or whatever. Sometimes you're resting, sometimes you're healing, sometimes you're, you know, exploring, sometimes you're adventuring, sometimes you're being really focused or intentional. So I really appreciate what you're saying about just navigating all of that and how difficult.

change can be and I'm feeling in a similar place with some recent changes in my own dynamics and things like that. Spoiler alert fam, your girl's single again. We'll talk about that on the next episode. yeah, just seeing myself in different versions of like when I'm with someone, when I'm not with someone, how I feel.

if I'm more sexual, if I'm less sexual, those types of things. just really recognizing that also too, if you do not feel good in your body, it's very, very, very hard to be intimate with other people. That's something I'm really noticing right now, because my weight has been fluctuating a little bit. And as we've been talking about, I've been on cycle syncing. And so my body's just been going, I got on unibird control. So like my body's just going through different hormonal.

changes and so trying to honor my body and where it's at and what I want and what I need and even you know thinking through some of my demisexuality and thinking about coming into this new place around being more aware of the emotional connection I need with someone before I can be physical with them.

and really advocating for myself for those types of experiences, right? I think we live in a very casual hookup culture and it can be very hard in that culture to advocate for like, no, I would really like to have like an intentional sexual experience where we're actually like caring for each other and showing up for each other and emotionally present, not where we're just like taking each other home and hooking up. And I'm finding myself more and more disappointed by people's lack of ability to do that, which is...

Sage D (01:13:30.044)
also bringing up a lot for me around like what does sexuality look like when I'm not partnered and don't have that emotional support or connection that I need.

Sara (01:13:44.387)
Yeah, so part of what I'm hearing is like, you are, know, having experiences and non-monogamy, because I know that now you're exploring what it would look like to just be in more monogamous connection, but having had those experiences, it's been easier to be a little bit more explorative, casually, sexually when you're in partnership, because you feel safe in that romantic connection.

Sage D (01:14:11.978)
Yes.

Sara (01:14:14.67)
And I can really relate to that because I go through seasons where I'm like, girl, I want to just see, I want to go play, I want to go have some fun. And I went through that season not that long ago and yeah, okay, let me talk about it for a little bit longer because...

Sage D (01:14:21.302)
you

Sage D (01:14:26.134)
Yeah, I remember we talked about it a little bit, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I was just saying I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sara (01:14:34.382)
You know, I'm just saying cuz this was this was my the little pizza thing I wanted to share earlier and I'm just gonna I'm just gonna share because So what happened was? What happened was is I was like, you know what would be fun. It would be fun to go on a date It would be fun to play and I'm really I go on date on on sites that are geared for non-monogamous more kink more queer people So it's very open all of these things and my I did not

Sage D (01:14:39.892)
Yeah. See, yeah.

Sara (01:15:03.394)
realize what I was actually looking for. I had this big epiphany, but I think what I was actually looking for was more community. And that is not where you're gonna find it. And I did not realize that. I was, cause what I was looking for was like, you're a couple that we could hang out and play like games and then we would, we just can take our pants off and dance if we feel like it. Great. Like that sounds fun. I could be myself, but that's not, that is not what exists.

Sage D (01:15:12.278)
Yeah. New. New.

Sage D (01:15:26.41)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara (01:15:32.533)
That is end that is I I did not it was like this biggest mind explosion because was talking to this one person and he was just saying the most wild things to me like just all of these really kinky things that he wanted to do but in a way that did not feel safe like but just but but I hadn't been exposed to this level of

confidence of like just very very highly encouraging me to like come over right now and and and and just be very very quick impulsive and I didn't But there was a part of me that remember that that wanted to write there was a part of me that wanted to just go Okay I'll be impulsive girl and just go have a good time and go have sex with this stranger right like I really wanted to answer the

Sage D (01:16:08.651)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (01:16:13.078)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sara (01:16:29.902)
part that scared me was when I noticed how this was actually kind of a creeper and I noticed that that part of me could have existed where I was self blaming like, I did something wrong here when, know, because they did this crazy thing. I didn't even end up meeting this person. I just had not been exposed to this world in a long, long, long, long time.

Sage D (01:16:45.547)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Sage D (01:16:53.398)
Mm-hmm.

think I can spin a minute.

Sara (01:16:58.09)
Yeah, it had been a minute. So in this experience, what I realized, I was like, you know what? This is what it feels like. It feels like, like so many people are just trying to, and I've heard people use this metaphor before, but just trying to order pizza. And it felt so unsafe. It felt so scary to me of just like expecting, basically wanting sex work, but not wanting to pay for it because I believe in sex work, but basic, not wanting to pay for it, not wanting to respect it. And just basically being like, I want,

a thicker bottomed girl that will tell me that they think I'm smart while we pretend to be my girlfriend for 24 hours and that they're really interested in me and that I cannot talk to. Like, you know, this crazy pizza that doesn't exist. And so the healing thing that I found for this experience that washed my soul that I would love to share with you,

Sage D (01:17:35.823)
This is...

Sage D (01:17:43.83)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sara (01:17:54.511)
is I decided that, and I ended up putting it in my book actually. put it on, I even wrote it down, it's on page 42, because I ended up, as soon as this happened, I literally added it in my book and then resubmitted it to Amazon because I was like, no, this has to go in here. So I said, you know what, I am not a pizza. And I thought, what am I? And then I really went into detail about it. I was like, okay, well, what would I be? What would course one be? What would course two be?

Sage D (01:18:09.61)
I love it.

Sara (01:18:24.022)
What would course three be? What would course, girl, I went detailed. And then I, me and my partner made this meal. We ate it and ate each other literally. And it was the most healing experience. Like if you have not done this and if you have been online dating and it has been a shit show, I highly recommend feeding your soul.

Sage D (01:18:51.094)
That's amazing. I love that you guys made the meal and then ate it and then fucked around. That's amazing. I also, I have made a personal boundary with myself that I will not be getting back on the dating sites now that I'm single. I have never had any luck on dating sites ever, ever, ever, ever. Never had a single one that worked out, never had a relationship. And to your point, it's so...

Sara (01:19:06.308)
yeah.

Sage D (01:19:19.71)
It's fast food dining. It's just, yeah, it's literally like a, it's like popping into a McDonald's. It's popping into a Wendy's, Thurger King, whatever, like you're just, you're just swiping. I can't, I can't do it. I can't do it. I won't do it.

Sara (01:19:33.135)
Well, I will say I met Joseph actually on Tinder. I met Robert on OkCupid. Yeah, so my relationships did start online. However, I do think there has been a shift and I also think that there's seasons in which the season I'm in now, I am not in a season where when you meet people in the world, in real life, you really...

Sage D (01:19:38.742)
WHAT?!

Sage D (01:19:44.362)
I love that video.

Sara (01:20:00.92)
quickly when you meet them can just feel an energy. so even when I meet somebody on a dating app, I always call it a chemistry check when I first meet because I'm just like, let's just see what the chemistry is. But it is so hard not to just set a little bit of expectations or whatever and just all of that and just the amount of time it takes. It is a lot of energy and we don't...

Sage D (01:20:04.31)
for sure.

Sage D (01:20:11.818)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara (01:20:29.312)
always have that kind of energy. know I don't right now. To be expending and I feel like it's changed where people really don't have as much social skills. Like, I don't know, maybe I'm, I just, think social skills have gone down and so it's more energy.

Sage D (01:20:44.886)
since COVID for sure. my God, since COVID, like we all went into isolation for a couple of years and then came out and pretended like we all know what we were doing again. And it's like, no, we've all been isolated by ourselves, fighting with our partners, getting divorces, learning about ourselves, having dark nights of the souls. And like, and now we're more divided and divisive than ever. Like there's just so much to unpack there. But one of the reasons I also won't get back on the dating sites is because

I believe that I'm going to meet my future partner in person, in an organic way. And I really won't have it any other way. So getting on the dating apps, like, doesn't serve me. Right? And I think that's something that I want to encourage people who are listening as we're talking about planting your pleasure seeds and stuff like that, is actually plant the actual fucking seed that's right for you, not the actual, not the fucking seed that you think is, you think is right for you.

Right, and what I mean by that is like, okay, like let's say for me, like, I want to date. Planting the pleasure seed of like putting effort into the dating apps is not the right pleasure seed for me because being on the apps is not fucking pleasurable for me. I fucking hate swiping. I don't like being on there. I feel like I don't understand who people are by reading their... It's, it exhausts me more than it does anything else. And it doesn't bring me any pleasure. So why am I planting the seed of being on the dating apps if I know inherently that doesn't bring me any pleasure?

But because I believe that that's how I'm gonna find a boyfriend that way, or that that's how other people found their boyfriend, like, whatever, right? I'm telling myself these stories about, ultimately, I can't have what I want. I don't get to meet someone in person. I don't get to have the organic connection, me cute, that I want. And so I need to settle for getting on the dating apps. And so part of what I'm learning right now in this season of my life is like, you have to fucking tell the universe, no, I don't want that.

No, I don't want that. And so I'm not even going to entertain anything around that. Right? And the reality is I don't want to meet someone on a dating site. So I'm not going to get on the dating sites because I don't want that.

Sara (01:22:48.396)
Yeah, and I think adding in the seed that you would want because there is still a skill of like, so maybe this is my neurodivergence talking, but I remember, so I've lived in many bodies. I've lost 100 pounds more than once. And so when people see me in the body that I'm in now, you don't always know that people treat you very differently based off the body that you're in. And you don't really realize that until you've lived in many different bodies in the world.

Sage D (01:22:57.387)
Tell me.

Sara (01:23:18.214)
And I say that because I literally, and again, this might be my neurodivergence talking, I remember the first time I lost 100 pounds, learning that the flirting thing is, I feel so silly saying, I can't believe I'm saying this right now, is literally looking at somebody that I wanted to flirt with, I would count to three, Mississippi, and smile. And it was that simple, but.

Sage D (01:23:33.974)
No, it's it. It's it. it.

Sara (01:23:45.487)
I was like, my gosh, that's it? You literally look at someone and smile and they look back at you and they notice you and that's them flirting with you? What in the, what? And that shows confidence? And that was terrifying for me. And so we don't always see these things as skills, like, do we have, okay, the skills to meet people that we don't know.

Sage D (01:23:46.632)
Yeah!

Sage D (01:24:05.416)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (01:24:13.61)
Yes. Yes.

Sara (01:24:15.826)
in the wild because they are skills.

Sage D (01:24:18.506)
Yes. And I think you're right, right? Am I approachable? Am I open to being approached? Am I open to finding someone? Right? Because I think that's also something in this context, right? Of like, OK, I won't get on the dating apps, but being on the dating apps does show that you're available, right? That you're open, that you are interested, right? And so in person, I have to think about how do I make myself look available? How do I show I'm interested in someone? How do I meet someone? How do I attract a person that I would be interested? Yeah, there's so much to consider.

Sara (01:24:48.462)
And there is a privilege, and the reason I mentioned the body type is there is a privilege to not just a physical change, but even the, let's say, okay, so I am a polyamorous person. So there's more practice and experience around rejection, but rejection still doesn't feel good. And so a lot of people, especially where I live, I don't live in a very open place.

maybe I've never even heard that. And so if I'm going to be just meeting people at a random place, there is a skill in hearing a lot of rejection because I am not the lifestyle that they're used to. And that could be similar if your religion is different than the people that you're around, if you're age based. So there's a privilege to certain people that

that are able to just interact a little bit easier and then the mobility and then also the physicality, of course, right? So it's challenging and so there are places in which I think dating online is actually awesome and beautiful and I actually really like dating online but it is, like what you're saying is finding what it's actually giving you energy. Like I loved that wording and how, and if it's not, like,

Sage D (01:26:04.31)
Sure. Yeah.

Sara (01:26:15.922)
what of those pleasure seeds needs to, the weed needs to be, and it's just not right now. It could be a not right now. Yeah, we could have this conversation. I could just see you and I having this conversation in.

Sage D (01:26:20.768)
Mm-hmm.

Not in this season. Not at this time!

Sara (01:26:33.282)
the fall and you being like, know what, my gosh, I absolutely love online dating. I met this girl on there, she is so beautiful. you know, like you're like, just permission that like this is the season right now where you're like, you know what, I wanna date monogamously. I see myself maybe meeting a man and in that way. And maybe there's another season where you're like, my gosh, I'm like super, I don't know what it is about her and she has three other partners and I'm just head over.

Sage D (01:26:39.606)
You

Sara (01:27:00.502)
heels and we're just it's great and this is what I want and everything's great. I can't wait to share with all my podcast.

Sage D (01:27:07.158)
Yeah, it's interesting getting to experience so much change and getting to share that so widely with people. It's a lot for sure, but it's also really beautiful. And I think you're right. is my constant, change is my love story to continuing to find myself. Right? Like the...

The continuation of finding myself, the commitment to finding myself, my love story for that is the way that I've changed.

Sara (01:27:40.271)
And we're all so thankful that you do. It's such a gift to the world that you do, because not everyone is willing. This is the things I think that your listeners are always, why they keep coming back and listening. Because you're willing to share that change. You're willing to share that evolution. You're willing to share that in that liminal space. You're willing to come one week and be like, I just met this person and let me show you what this NRE looks like. And then you're willing to come back the next week and be like, my gosh. What a nightmare.

Sage D (01:28:04.35)
We broke up! I really love that you're saying that too because I think something that is really important to me that...

that I hope I never lose is my willingness to be so unapologetically, pathetically, intensely in love with people and like to be all in on just connections and relationships, even if they don't work out. And for a long time, I had a lot of shame about that. And I think I'm really moving into this place of like, no, it's actually like a really beautiful thing that I'm so loving and so willing to deeply invest in connections that feel exciting to me.

it's okay that they all don't work out. And that doesn't mean anything about me.

Sara (01:28:56.312)
Well, what a gift. I could talk to you all day, which we totally should organize that, but I know that we should probably start to wrap up.

Sage D (01:29:01.014)
you

Yes, yes, yes. Thank you so much for being on this podcast as always. I'm so excited for our future episodes. Thank you all so much for listening. I hope that this episode was helpful for you as you are on your own journeys, as you're thinking about your own springtime season and all of the things. Please make sure you're taking good, good care of yourselves. The season of Mercury retrograde right now here in March and the lunar eclipse that we had last week is doing everyone in. So I hope you all are resting.

drinking plenty of water, taking very, very good care of yourselves. And as always, wherever your longing leads you, I hope you stay turned on by your truth.