DTF Better with Sage and Sara: When Pleasure Feels Too Much | The Nervous System Conversation

You say you want pleasure. More connection. More intimacy. More ease in your body.

But when it actually shows up… something tightens. You pull back. You overthink. You start bracing.

This isn’t a mindset issue. It’s a safety issue.

In this conversation, we get into what it really means to receive pleasure and why so many people struggle to stay in it. From nervous system responses to the stories we carry about intimacy, this episode breaks down why feeling good can feel unfamiliar, overwhelming, or even unsafe.

We talk about the “should” patterns that pull you out of the moment, the fear that shows up when connection deepens, and the reality that pleasure is something your body has to learn how to hold.

This is about noticing your patterns without shaming them and starting to build capacity for something you actually want.

If you’ve ever felt like you can’t fully relax into love, intimacy, or even simple moments of joy… this one’s for you.

Listen all the way through. Then take one thing from this episode and actually practice it in your real life. That’s where this work starts to land.

Themes Explored in This Episode

•  Why pleasure can feel unsafe even when you want it. 
• Nervous system regulation and its role in intimacy 
•  The connection between emotional safety and physical sensation 
•  “Should” thinking and how it disrupts presence 
•  Pleasure as a skill, not just a feeling 
•  Fear of intimacy and pulling away from connection

Key Takeaways

• Wanting pleasure is not enough. Your body has to feel safe to receive it. 
• Shame does not go away by force. It shifts through awareness and understanding. 
• Your nervous system determines how long you can stay in pleasure. 
• Overthinking and “should” patterns pull you out of the experience. 
• Emotions are signals. Ignoring them disconnects you from your body. 
• Intimacy can trigger fear, even when it’s something you want.

Jump to the Part That Calls You

0:00 Intro
6:23 The Problem with “Should” Thinking and Losing Presence
11:03 Reactivity, Overstimulation, and Pulling Away
22:05 Belief Systems and Internal Narratives
36:23 Being Disruptive and Advocating for Yourself

Connect with Sara:

• IG: https://www.instagram.com/confidentpelvicrehab
• Website: http://www.confidentpelvicrehab.com

Connect with me:
Instagram
desiretheforbidden
justasuccugirl

Tiktok
desiretheforbidden | pleasure professor 🍒 sage

Website
https://www.desiretheforbidden.com/

Transcript

Sage D (00:01.314)
Hello, my sweet sexy vixens. Welcome back to Truth Meets Taboo. Happy springtime. We're in springtime. Very exciting. We hit Aries season. The astrological New Year's has hit. We are now in the time where flowers are starting to bloom. So many little things are out. We're out of hibernation. So exciting. And I'm so excited because Sarah is back and we are going to continue our conversation.

that we've been having on pleasure and planting our pleasure seeds and tending to our garden. So welcome back, Sarah. It's so good to see you again.

Sara (00:40.396)
Yay, I'm so glad to be here. Whenever you did the intro of like, welcome my sweet sexy vixens, I think of the 90s, all that, and she's like, that's me. And that's like, I wanna like interrupt you, be like, that's me.

Sage D (00:59.064)
haven't thought about what yeah it's all that right that's what it's called yeah I haven't thought about that yeah I think so yeah I haven't thought about that show in so long but I loved that show it was such a fun show and yeah that's me we love a good theme song we love a good theme song

Sara (01:03.436)
Yeah, Amanda, right?

Sara (01:14.028)
That's me.

you

Sage D (01:19.756)
Well, I'm super excited to talk today as we're kind of thinking about our continued conversation on planting seeds and thinking about our pleasure gardens. I think one of the things that has been coming up for me a lot is as I've been leaning into pleasure, as I've been focusing more into pleasure, this idea of like, does my body actually even feel safe enough to hold what is growing?

Right, and I think for me, even acknowledging can my body hold pleasure for an extended period of time, right? Where pleasure is kind of like existing day after day in abundance in such a way that I feel it regularly.

Am I comfortable with that? Can I hold the feeling of being in pleasure so much, right? When I'm so used to the idea of maybe not being in pleasure or maybe I haven't embraced pleasure at all or pleasure maybe feels unsafe because it feels like the other shoe is going to drop. But I've just been thinking a lot about even if we plant our seeds, even if we try to tend to our gardens, the soil...

right, has to be open to fertilizing, receiving the seeds, planting, all of that. And that's a big part of being able to tend to our gardens. And so, yeah, that's been coming up from me a lot lately. I'm curious for you if that resonates at all or if you think about that in your relationship as you're thinking about planting your seeds.

Sara (03:09.358)
excited to go deeper. And, you know, because there is, there's writing poems, there's taking baths, and then there's the reality of that pleasure is actually a really uncomfortable feeling and a skill to practice. And even myself, I find

I often have this feeling no matter what I'm doing that there's another thing I quote unquote should be doing or should be focusing on. And it's hard to really ask myself, am I practicing joy, am I practicing pleasure? What does that even look like in this moment? It's like even this morning I wrote a poem. I spent probably two hours writing this poem. I enjoyed it. I did it while walking. But there's this other part of my brain that's like, well, maybe I shouldn't be using my phone while I'm walking.

and maybe I should be catching up on the calls that I should do. And now it's like no longer 5 a.m. but 9 a.m. and I haven't done my exercising and maybe that I need for my body. you know, there's this endless rotation of thoughts that go through my head that there's something I'm forgetting, there's something I should, which I hate that word as we all do. And it's a practice to say, I'm enjoying this, I'm safe even if it's uncomfortable and to recognize that it is uncomfortable.

and not have this like meta shame that why is this hard for me? Why is this uncomfortable?

Sage D (04:37.74)
Yeah. Yeah. I think about that a lot of the idea of should I should be doing something else? I should be doing this. I should be should be should be and how much that strips away presence and the ability and capacity to actually receive whatever it is that you're doing. Right. And not being able to be present to what you're receiving, which means you're not able to fully

you know, be in your pleasure or explore your pleasure or be in whatever the moment is. And I think a lot about like you can plant the most beautiful seeds or have, you know, the most beautiful ideas for things that you want to work on or pleasure that you're trying to find for yourself or explore.

But if the soil that you're planting those seeds in is depleted or tense or unwatered or unfertilized, know, the plants won't thrive. So the things that you are trying to cultivate won't thrive. And so I think a lot about the nervous system as soil, right? Like that's kind of how I see those connections being made, right? My nervous system is the...

essentially the foundation for my ability to receive pleasure. When I'm feeling safe in my nervous system, when my body is feeling relaxed, when I am able to be present, when I am able to be fully in an experience because my nervous system feels safe, then I'm able to actually fully receive the experience. And

I think that's something that's really interesting about nervous system regulation research is looking at when your body is in the different types of nervous system cycles. I think that's what it is cycles. like the parasympathetic nervous system. There we go.

Sage D (06:48.814)
sympathetic nervous system, talking about the vagus nerve, those types of things, like really recognizing that the body does actually have a mechanism for showing you that it is in a state of receiving, right?

Sara (07:12.024)
You know what's so interesting about this is that I've just taken so many neuroscience classes about pain and about, the flip side of that is always pleasure, right? whenever I'm taking these classes, my overwhelming feeling during them is angst. while I'm taking these classes trying to learn about my nervous system regulation, I feel nothing but regulated. And...

Sage D (07:31.15)
No.

Sara (07:42.011)
a, I think a simplified...

Like all the tools, all the science, it's so important, but a simplified thing that I'm inviting to practice with it is more of looking at a lot of my own responses, my own feelings as gifts, even the ones that I'm shooting on. So for example, looking at, for example, know, fear.

And fear is really a way that my body is asking.

to know what's important to myself. Or anger is really looking for a way to know my boundaries. Or sadness is literally looking for connection. And trying to see the gift in my natural responses, whatever they are, versus trying to change them or push them away. Even our words of Shuz, it reminded me of a poem by Shel Silverstein of.

Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be. And it's the Shell Silverstein of just listening to those, that part of you that's wanting to do something different. That has been a practice that's been helping me a lot.

Sage D (09:18.542)
I love that so much and I love what you're saying about like just simplifying the practice and simplifying the understanding of what we're talking about in the body. I think that that is a really good point. I'm curious for you, do you feel like your body ever does kind of like a bracing for pleasure where like,

where you maybe come up against something where you want to engage with pleasure or you want to engage with something pleasurable and your body kind of does like an immediate like I don't want to do that or don't do that or like that fear response comes in.

Sara (09:58.804)
Hmm, it's a really great question because there's so many different types of pleasure, but I have a very high reactive response in general to touch of any kind, intimate touch, non-intimate touch, but it's beyond that. It's like different senses. So loud sound or strong sense. I often have a reactive response that in the past has told people that are trying to connect with me don't

don't connect with me that I've had to really sit with and try to understand. And to be honest, I still have that response. And so there are a lot of places in which I'm resistant to the connection or to pleasure because my first response is reactive, but often my second response is leaning in and connecting.

Sage D (10:29.324)
Yeah.

Sage D (10:57.358)
This is so fascinating, because while you're talking about that, I was like, what does mine look like? And mine actually looks like the more someone extends pleasure to me, the more pleasure I get from like a connection or someone. That's when I start to, it's like, it's going back to what I was saying before, it's almost like I can't hold all of it. It's so much that it feels like, my gosh, like I have to.

So like when I'm thinking about my relationship currently, like I have to be mindful because there's so much pleasure in the relationship overall, just like happiness and joy and playfulness and all of this stuff, that sometimes I notice my body and nervous system start to become like a little bit angsty towards that. you're being so nice to me, or it's like so much love, it's like so much pleasure and...

My body starts to kind of reject it a little bit because it's feeling unsafe, right? Like it's too much, like it's too good to be true. Like there's too much pleasure here. So I have to start to distance myself or brace or prepare for it to like not be good again. Is that making sense what I'm saying?

Sara (12:13.038)
Do you find that in intimate connections with friends and in all intimate connections or new romantic connections?

Sage D (12:20.856)
I think.

I think any and all intimate connections for me. I think the intimacy of being close, right, can feel very scary for me. And so the closer I get to someone and the more pleasure I'm receiving from gaining closeness and connection with that person, the more I start to fear that connection.

Sara (12:26.958)
Hmm.

Sara (12:47.372)
I really resonate with that. the reason I asked it more broadly is I just realized this about myself. I really enjoy being in small groups of people because it takes all this pressure off of me to interact, to be really present. They're laughing and I'm laughing too. But having one person over for dinner.

going to get coffee with one person to catch up, it feels like so much pressure in my body. like, what am I resisting? Am I resisting connection? What is the pressure that I'm putting on myself right now to have this chat with a friend, a genuine just conversation, just dinner? Why do I feel like that is...

A challenge. It really is a challenge for me. I just noticed this about myself recently.

Sage D (13:46.05)
Yeah, I really love that you're sharing that because I think what you're really surfacing for us is the roots of the soil, right? Which is like, what are my belief systems or what are the narratives that are kind of like feeding and or starving my pleasure, right? Roots are about nourishment.

Sara (14:03.618)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (14:06.166)
So roots are what we draw nourishment from, right? When we think of plants, plants draw their nutrients and their nourishment from roots. And so what exists in our roots in the soil? What are the stories we've told ourselves? What are the things that we are holding inside? And recognizing that you can starve yourself of pleasure and sexuality and intimacy, right? Like you can actively starve yourself of that. And so,

I've also been thinking a lot about this and really thinking about recognizing one of my biggest fears in life is that I will grow old and die alone, that I will not be surrounded by friends or family or loved ones, that like for some reason I just end up in a state of aloneness. And...

I notice the ways that that fear has kept me from making deeper connections like you're talking about, right? Choices that I make to not go on those one-on-one conversations or not call my friend when I know she would love to hear from me. Not schedule that time with that person or not send that, you know, condolences card to a friend or whatever, right? And...

I've been sitting with this a lot, this feeling of like, how am I avoiding intimacy or pleasure as a way to essentially...

Sage D (15:43.456)
avoid my fear, right? Which then kind of self-perpetuates the fear because I'm just distancing myself as a result.

Sara (15:52.014)
you

I'm curious when you are looking at, because some people are more introspective than others. And also, I think sometimes looking at your roots alone when you're feeling lonely, which so many people are feeling lonely, isn't always the healthiest or most helpful.

Especially, know, at least for me, I'm a processor at Louder. So I'm curious, like, what helps you to notice these things about yourself that you're wanting to, that are like making it difficult for you to water your soil with orgasms and then the metaphor that I'm making very literal.

Sage D (16:36.43)
So are you asking me like how I came to these realizations or are you asking me? Go ahead.

Sara (16:48.718)
I'm curious, like noticing these patterns in yourself. If you're just an intuitive person that ponders that, you just sit around and being like, hmm, I wonder what I'm struggling with right now. Or if you have a journaling practice, if you go to therapy, you have a person that you just feel like you can process out loud some of your patterns with, like what helps you to notice these things about yourself?

Sage D (16:52.398)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (17:18.05)
Yeah, okay, I got you. So yes, I definitely go to therapy. So I have a therapist that I see regularly that helps me, you know, definitely sort through a lot of my thoughts and things like that. The other thing is that I am an avid nonfiction reader. So that is like a fun little fact about me. I probably read the same amount of books as a fantasy fiction reader as a nonfiction reader. I probably read about...

10 to 20 self-help, self-development, intimacy, connection type books a year. And so obviously that reading those books brings up.

thoughts, right? And they're asking you questions in those books and things like that. And so I do a lot of self-reflection journaling, all of that through that process as well. And then I will say that for myself, I know I'm an external processor. So I've actually over the course of the last few years really started to cultivate

Sara (17:58.478)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (18:17.12)
a strong practice in my friendships where I get to share and verbally process with my friends. So I have a friend, you know, we call each other once a week and have like a phone call where we process things. I have another friend where we co-work once a week. And so when we co-work, we process and catch up and do things of that nature. And that's something I will say to people is cultivate your friendships, cultivate your networks, cultivate your communities where you can

process and engage about the things that you are working through with people because it is one thing to sit alone in your room and process things and pick through things and da da da da in the the quiet of your four walls and no one can see you or judge you or shame you for what you're working through. There is something deeply medicinal in my opinion about sharing that with other people.

healing that with other people in community, letting yourself be witnessed, letting yourself be heard and seen, seeing yourself reflected back in the experience and the resonance of other people. That processing together will teach you more about yourself than you could ever imagine.

Sara (19:30.766)
Yeah. Well, in real time, I want to ask you about what you just said. So just kind of mirroring and let me know if I heard what you said. You this fear of being alone, right? You're noticing this route of you have a fear of being alone that comes up in relationships. And to what I said earlier, fear, if I look at it as a gift, I think it could be a gift around intuition. My intuition is telling me something.

that could be really challenging to listen to. And I'm curious if that resonates with you. And if so, you know, just your kind of in real time processing around that. Like if that fear was a gift to listen to your intuition.

Sage D (20:23.438)
So you're saying that if the fear of being alone was a gift, like if being alone was a gift instead of a fear, is that what you're saying?

Sara (20:30.58)
No, I'm saying that there are certain times that this fear comes up, right? You mentioned it comes up when, what'd you tell me? Cause you, when does that come up for you? Like you notice this fear come up.

Sage D (20:44.139)
Usually when I build closeness and connection with people, the more closeness and connection I build with people. So the more intimacy I'm investing in, whether that's time, energy, communication.

Sara (20:58.92)
And can you think of like a recent one, you don't have to say it out loud, but just a recent one to have like in your head as an example. So if that came up and that fear was a gift that was something in your intuition, is there something that you feel like is a gift? know, maybe it's not real that you're, you're currently are with somebody that cares about you. You're building intimacy, right? But if it's,

your intuition to maybe listen to that, right? I don't know. I can't be your inner sage, but which I love that word,

Sage D (21:31.052)
You

Sage D (21:34.742)
I guess, hmm.

Sage D (21:42.946)
I guess I'm not fully sure I'm following along in terms of like...

Sage D (21:49.826)
I guess my-

My intuition when I'm in that moment is telling me, is telling me that it's safe, right? That it is safe to be able to connect and that it is what I want, right? Which is what I have to remind myself in most of those times is like, this is what I want. And so I have to keep investing in that, right? I have to keep watering the soil. I have to keep tending to the garden and planting the seed. I can't just ignore it.

Sara (22:06.275)
Mm.

Sage D (22:22.583)
Is that making sense?

Sara (22:23.026)
Mm, I love that. you know, I'm not a therapist. Neither of us are, right? But this has been, that kind of noticing has been helpful for me instead of trying to remove this fear or even have this like meta shame because I'm this high achieving person that shouldn't feel bad and should have intimacy and everything should be perfect all the time of saying, hey, this is an invitation for...

Sage D (22:29.102)
That's all.

Sara (22:49.07)
when I do feel this in my body, it feels like clammy in my chest, it feels sweaty in my hands, it's an invitation that I'm doing something a lot of people don't, which is choosing that this is something I want. And that's my intuition saying, choose, this is something you want. I want closeness, even if it's uncomfortable. And to me, that's really beautiful.

Sage D (23:00.226)
Yes.

Sage D (23:09.408)
Mm-hmm. I do. Yeah, I do think that and I think Being able to make choice from a sovereign place Right, which is why looking at your roots is so important your belief systems your narratives your stories because What are you reinforcing for yourself? What is the story that you're telling yourself? What is the story that you are?

kind of reinforcing in your mind as the truth about who you are and what you deserve and all of those things, right?

Sara (23:42.294)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's actually a book right next to me called Everything is a Story. I have it right here. I love it. I want to say the author's name is

Sage D (23:44.204)
Sara (23:55.854)
It is Everything is a Story by Caitlin Curtis. Did I mail you this book as a present? I did. I don't know if you read it, I just loved, just.

Sage D (23:59.49)
Yes. I haven't read it yet, but it's on my, it's on my shelf for, I am such an interesting person when it comes to books. I usually have like stacks of books out that I'm like, okay, in the next, usually like in this year, I would like to read this book and I just have them like kind of stacked out. And then as I finish a book, I kind of go over to like the area where the books are. And then I'm like, okay, which one do I fit? And it's always really intuitive. And it's so crazy to me that it's always,

Every time I finish the book, I'm like, okay, this was the book that I needed to read right now. And so I haven't read this one yet, but she is on my shelf for this year. So hopefully I will feel intuitively called to read her this year.

Sara (24:46.158)
Well, I used to really shame myself for being such a slow reader. Like, I write a book as I'm reading it. Basically, right in the margin so much that I write, but it's, I have found sinking into that and letting myself be really slow with a book and actually find things that I wanna adopt and try on as I'm reading has been really lovely. But she writes,

Sage D (24:50.003)
really?

Sage D (24:54.017)
Yeah!

Sage D (25:04.343)
Yeah.

Sara (25:13.862)
story as an acorn the acorns becoming a tree and it's all metaphor for how we see our stories how we pass on our stories and really lovely imagery and really lovely I don't want to say tools because it's much softer than a tool it's but ways of perspective of looking at stories that I have found so helpful and yummy even as I go on walks I'll find an acorn and I'll put it in my pocket and I'll think about what type of

Sage D (25:21.422)
cute.

Sara (25:43.976)
of, it'll give me a physical piece for maybe this thought that's going through my head. And I try to think about what type of story is this? Is it spherical or linear? She talks about how some stories are spherical, like an acorn they repeat, or linear they're in, you're going through that story. And the spherical versus the linear acorns are actually picked up by different types of animals. birds versus squirrels.

you know, things that fly and kind of come back annually versus squirrels that are munching on the ground. And all of that type of imagery and metaphor has really infused into even like my daily walks and how I look at my story and reframe stories in ways where I'm not completely trashing one version, you know? Like I don't have to trash that my brain immediately. Sometimes, okay, I'm gonna give a more grounded example. I...

I confidence, right? have confident pelvic rehab, all about confidence of your belly, confidence in your pelvic floor. And yet, I've lost 100 pounds and have all this extra skin and a part of my brain is still focused on my extra skin belly and how it hangs, how it feels, a lot less than it used to be, but there's still a part of my brain that's being occupied by that noise. And it's been really helpful for me instead of trying to get rid of that story and just practice confidence.

of saying how can this be a part of my story, but not the whole thing. What parts of this am I wanting to use as power, use as fuel, use as beauty, instead of trying to remove this part of myself altogether?

Sage D (27:32.556)
I love that. And I love that you're talking about being in union, right? I talk about this a lot when I think about shame work around sexuality. We don't want to be in opposition with our shame. We're not trying to remove it. We're not trying to get rid of it. We're trying to become in union with it, which means understanding it, loving it, seeing it.

knowing it, accepting it, and I think this idea of like coming into union with parts of yourself that you feel like shouldn't be there or are wrong or are negative or bad or what have you, whatever you've connotated for yourself about it.

is how we settle our nervous system to begin to feel safe because part of what's making us feel unsafe is that we feel like we're bad or wrong or something is wrong with us.

Sara (28:39.424)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so many women in particular, although I work with all genders, have this disconnect from their body, not just how it feels, but looking at it, touching it in any capacity, let alone pleasure, let alone letting in something that feels good. And a comment I think, I love that you talk about all types of shame because I think that there's a...

a flow that often goes to religiosity and departing from all aspects of ideology that made you feel a certain negative about yourself. But I think there couldn't be anything more divine and connected to the universe than feeling pleasure. And how can you marry your religiosity that serves you or marry your beliefs, your values?

in ways that that feel delicious and taste good.

Sage D (29:41.624)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, and allow you to experience your body. That's a lot of what I feel for me is so interesting about the pleasure conversation. So much of it feels connected to how disassociated are you from your body, right? How disassociated can you be from your body? And pleasure feels...

like the avenue to which we find that embodiment again, right? We find that presence again, that awareness again. And I think that makes me think about, you know, how long can you actually enjoy the experience? How long can you actually stay in a pleasurable experience, right? Without rushing to the next thing or moving to the next thing and really letting yourself be in it. And so I know for me,

It's so interesting because I have a partner right now who's so invested in my pleasure and wants to give me so much pleasure. And he's very good about being dominant about it, which is really helpful for me. But I am still so resistant to experiencing a certain level of pleasure, like a certain number of orgasms, a certain number of bodily sensations. I start to get overwhelmed to the point where I actually physically push him away from me.

which is such an interesting point of data around me and my body and my nervous system, that there is a threshold for me that feels like this is dangerous or something is wrong because I'm feeling so much pleasure. So that's been an interesting edge for me to be playing in right now of thinking about how can I surrender into that and...

recognizing I actually do have a pleasure threshold, which is crazy to think about sometimes.

Sara (31:45.902)
Is your pleasure threshold something you've noticed even by yourself, like during your own self pleasure?

Sage D (31:53.934)
That's a good question. I think.

I think the drive to continue to pleasure myself decreases and so then I think it just naturally kind of ends. I don't think I have that same. I don't know. This is a good question. don't.

I don't know that I've pushed myself to a place with self-pleasuring where I've been like, that's too much and I need to stop. I just kind of get to a place where I'm like, okay, I'm done. So maybe that is an edge that maybe I do need to try.

Sara (32:28.056)
Yeah, because I mean, sometimes it's our body. There is an overwhelming amount of chocolate where it's not tasting good anymore, you know? So sometimes it's just there's a lot of chocolate. And even if we're not used to it, like, we're like, you know what? I'm going to let myself eat as much chocolate as I want. And at first, we might eat the two whole dark chocolate bars, right? But then eventually, we're like, is that?

Sage D (32:35.054)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Sara (32:56.302)
and that can change over time. And then other times it's different when you're with on your own versus another person. You're like, okay, my threshold when I'm by myself is I can have a chocolate bar, but with another person, it's really difficult for me to enjoy the chocolate bar. I wanna...

And so sometimes it might just be literally a physical response. And then other times it might be if it's really different when you're with your partner versus by yourself, more of the deeper roots that you're bringing up. Is it difficult for me to allow pleasure when somebody else is involved and why and how and all those things?

Sage D (33:38.19)
I'm so curious about this thought of like the overindulgence of pleasure and like what you think about that, right? Like there is, can be too much chocolate, right? And too much pleasure and too much physical connection and all that kind of stuff. So when you think about that, you know, what happened, does that show up for you at all? Have you had personal experiences like that where you're like, okay, that's too, or just your pleasureful experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sara (33:58.296)
You mean during sex? Or w-

Well, both, yeah, for sure. I mean, I am a dopamine-seeking person and I love this very big paradox in life in that I love novelty, I love spice, I love bright, I love glimmer, I love sparkle, I love loud, but I also get really overstimulated. And it's very confusing. So there are some times where I'm distracted from pleasure.

Let's say somebody, let's say my partner is giving me orgasms in oral sex, right? And I'm distracted because of the music, because my body is being overwhelmed by music or my body is being overwhelmed by the air. So I often feel overstimulated in general, where certain days I, it might be really easy for me to sink into my body. And other days I might be really into my head of.

feeling just overstimulated. And I can feel like that with all kinds of different pleasure. And for me, that's part of something I like to play with. Maybe being denied orgasms or playing with more of my leading energy where I'll say, need to wait while I touch myself.

and watch me as I take a break. Instead of getting more and more in my head, I use it as a tool of like, I need something to be a little different and how can I play with this feeling of being a little overstimulated or a little over pleasure in a way that feels really yummy to me.

Sage D (35:44.43)
I love that you're bringing this up and I love specifically that you are also talking about being comfortable being disruptive. So this is something that's been coming up a lot in some of the spaces I've been in with other feminists around sexuality and kind of flow in a sexual experience or intimate experience of like being able to do that, recognizing you're feeling overstimulated, recognizing you want something different and being able to stop the experience and shift it.

Right? And being able to say, to your point, no, you're gonna watch me for a little while now, or I'm gonna go do this now. And I think something I've heard women really struggle with is like that disruption piece. Well, we're already doing this one activity, so we should keep with the same activity, and I shouldn't be disruptive and create a problem and da-da-da-da-da-da, right? And so it's been really interesting to work with women on how can you be more disruptive? Because the disruption is actually you advocating for yourself.

Sara (36:26.094)
Mm.

Sage D (36:44.738)
And we've learned that advocating for ourselves and our pleasure is a problem because it's disruptive, right? And so I really love what you're saying about, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is also about...

Sage D (37:00.49)
Yeah, sorry, I'm having, not sorry, I'm having this download right now. You can only enjoy it as long as you're in the experience of enjoyment, right? And so when you start to move out of the experience of enjoyment, that's the time to say, okay, I need to do something else to move back into the experience of enjoyment, right? So.

to create a longer sense of enjoyment, you have to actually be comfortable with making adjustments, making disruptions to keep finding the path towards enjoyment, right? Because the path towards enjoyment isn't just gonna be a straight line.

Sara (37:38.318)
Disruptive is sexy. Disruptive is confident. Disruptive involves self-compassion. Disruption involves change. Disruption involves the other person feeling safe because you advocate for yourself. So even if it's uncomfortable, the more we practice being disruptive, I almost want a shirt that says I'm disruptive now, or I'm a destructive, sexy bitch. Like, I don't know. I think the more we can embrace and practice

Sage D (37:41.858)
Yeah.

Sage D (37:59.502)
Thank you.

Sara (38:07.534)
pausing for even, and I love the word disruptive because oftentimes I'll use the word more like pause, but it's, the power that's evoked in being disruptive is really something I'm loving that you're saying and wanting to play with more.

Sage D (38:26.242)
Yeah, I specifically am using the word disruptive because I work with a lot of women who experience sexual trauma of some kind, right? And I think something that we should probably honor for all of us is that the deepest level of sexual trauma that many of us experience is at our own hands, right? All the times that we have said yes when we really meant no. All of the times that we have done things that we didn't really want to be doing. All the times that we weren't disruptive and stopped and

when we knew we didn't really want to keep doing it. And really recognizing that being disruptive is not just about saving and protecting yourself from other people who might hurt you. It is also about having that conversation with yourself of like, we're no longer going to keep hurting ourselves. We're no longer going to keep ourselves in this

sense of shame or sense of smallness, right? That we're going to stand up for ourselves and for our bodies. And when someone is doing something to us that we don't like, that we stand up for ourselves and we say, no, I don't want that. No, thank you. No. And I'm...

Sara (39:38.094)
you

Sage D (39:42.19)
It's interesting because there's a lot of conversation in the kink and BDSM and kind of group sex space right now about consent and navigating consent and all of those things as there always is. And one of the big gaps that I see in that space is that we are not empowering more people to be disruptive and stand up at an event and call people out and say what is happening and.

know, demand that they be heard that something is happening in the space that they don't like. And it's why, you know, people go home from parties or group events or things like that, and then they write about it later about what they experienced at the event instead of standing up at the event when it's happening, looking that person in the face and being like, no, this is not OK.

and getting the group organizers and bringing them in and having a conversation in the moment and making sure people understand what is okay and what is not okay. And standing up for ourselves, being disruptive in that way, in the group, in the setting, in the present moment, not later, not tomorrow, not three years from now, but being able to stand up in the moment saying something is happening to me that I don't like and we need to deal with it. It needs to be addressed.

and good.

Sara (41:06.958)
I that you hold a lot of nuance, but for a listener that might not know you as well or know us as well, I do want to just bring up the complexities of trauma and that fawning response can be one that we're bringing up a lot right now and talking about. And that response of you go with the thing because it's safer to appease than it is to disrupt. And sometimes that is

1000 % true. And other times it is uncomfortable. And I just want to be careful around language because I think a lot of women have a position of self blame when it comes to bad things that have happened to them. And I know that you hold a lot of nuance in that, in that it's not at all what you're saying. And I just want to emphasize that that's not what you're saying at all.

but that it is a power move to be disruptive and to learn that skill, especially as a woman that has been socialized not to be.

Sage D (42:20.6)
Well, and I think too, and I will say this, I'm not here to co-sign anyone's victimhood, right? Like I understand we are all victims. We've all been victims of something of varying degrees. I'm not gonna dispute that. I'm not gonna discredit that. I'm not gonna invalidate that for anyone.

I'm not the right practitioner for someone who wants to be in that space dealing with their victimhood and wanting to be in that trauma and wanting to circle in it and process it. I do think that that's important. I do think you need to do that. I've had to do that in my own journey. And I think that the women that I've been in community with and that I've been working with,

are in a place of wanting to move out of their victimhood, where they wanna move out of the space of, no, I don't wanna continue to live in my trauma and be the girl that was traumatized and be the girl that was assaulted and be the girl that was da-da-da-da-da. I wanna be disruptive. I wanna be the girl that stands up. And it's also like, no, anything that's happened to you at the hands of another person who's harmed you is not your fault. And...

What I said is still true. We have probably harmed ourselves more than anybody has ever harmed us because we fall into victimhood of our own patterns and our own stories and our own belief systems. And yes, there are real situations where fawning or freezing or certain types of responses are necessary for survival. But that's not what I'm speaking to. I'm speaking to...

when we are in a place as a woman to move past that, if I'm showing up to a sex party, that's not a victimhood space. I'm not a victim there. I'm consenting to be in a sex space. I'm consenting to show up to have sex of some kind or voyeur or I'm consenting to at least be there. But if I'm walking into a sex party with the idea that I'm already a victim because I'm there, that's, babe, no.

Sage D (44:16.396)
because then you're anybody who approaches you, anybody who speaks to you is now a predator, is now trying to harm you, is now trying to do something to you. No, babe, you're at a sex party. People are approaching you because you're at a sex party. That's why we're here. So that's what I'm saying is like, I'm trying to, in my communities, do the work of

We are here doing kinky, sexy things. That's why we're all here. We've agreed to be in these containers. You don't then get to show up in that container, not speak up for yourself, not advocate for yourself, not follow your consent practices and then be a victim.

I'm trying to support women who want to show up in those spaces empowered, boldly, in their pleasure, in their own consent frameworks, in their bodies. And you can't do that if you are a victim because those things cannot coexist. You cannot be confident and empowered if you're also a victim. So for me, it's part of...

getting to a place of understanding that if I want to engage in my pleasure, if I wanna be at this sex party, if I wanna do these things, I also have to be able to advocate for myself and feel empowered and be able to stand up for myself. And yes, if I'm going into a sex space and I am fawning and freezing and having these...

parasympathetic nervous system responses, maybe I shouldn't be in those spaces because I'm now unsafe to play with because I cannot regulate my own nervous system playing with people. So how are you now a safe person for me to play with? Right, and so this is about acknowledging that you have to take responsibility for your own nervous system.

Sage D (46:16.532)
around intimacy and you cannot rely on another person to keep you safe and to keep you in a sense of containment. You have to contain yourself and when things are happening that you don't want to be happening, you have to stand up for yourself, especially when it is in an environment like that where the purpose and intent is to be there for that and

People are actively saying that it's a part of the rules to communicate when something is happening that you don't want happening.

Sara (46:51.544)
For a listener, the through line, I'm curious, you know, for somebody maybe that's never been to a sex party, and there's different kinds of sex parties, know, dungeon spaces and swinger spaces. Can you think of an example that is kind of like a route, you know, to the topic of today that you've kind of addressed and it helped you to be disruptive at a sex party or at a kink party or...

Sage D (46:59.628)
Yeah, for sure.

Sage D (47:12.526)
Hmm.

Sara (47:19.502)
in a certain environment that you might not have been in the past, just to kind of give like a grounded example to somebody that might have never been in those spaces.

Sage D (47:29.56)
So I think for me, one of the root things that I have is that I am not allowed to desire or like have desires or like want things or want to explore my sexuality, right? That I'm not allowed to be slutty or promiscuous or all of these things. And so I think for me, the way that...

that has shown up at like parties and things like that is maybe I have gotten even offended or upset by people who are maybe

showing interest in me or expressing interest in me or maybe I feel shame if I do something at a party or if I explore myself sexually at a party and though and then I start to feel shame about that and instead of taking ownership of that I start to then project that onto the other person and be like well we ended up having sex and I didn't really want to do that even though I said yes and so then I make it into a weird thing where it's like well you violated my consent because we had sex and maybe I didn't really want to and it's like no

I wanted to, I just, I have this story that I'm not supposed to be doing that, so after the act is over, I'm telling myself a story about why that was wrong and why that was bad, and instead of me being bad, I'm gonna make someone else bad. And so, I think it's important to remember that these stories can create projections, and that's something we need to be mindful of when we're in these spaces, is that we're not projecting.

our own shame, our own stories, our own roots onto other people.

Sara (49:16.376)
That's a really good example and I can think of times that I've been at parties and...

It is uncomfortable to be disruptive. You know, I don't do a lot of pickup play. Pickup play is a term that a lot of kinksters will use for anybody listening to kind of play with somebody that you haven't developed a connection with, that it's more of a quicker negotiation. I don't really do a lot of that. I also tend to go to more of kink spaces, which are more sensation-based. People using rope, people using...

candle waxed and there's often not genital play in the room. But I recently was curious about going to a swinger space, which there's not every community is different. Every party is different. Every person's different. But it was my first time navigating that space. was part of a I did know a few people there, but not many people.

And there was this person that kept flirting with me and I was interested in, they were interested in me. And I remember trying to engage in this conversation and I could just tell that this was not something he was used to. Like just me engaging in a conversation around what I like, what I don't like, what I'm comfortable with, how I...

It's actually why I wrote my book with the heart acronym, because I literally follow my own acronym in my own little NeuroSpicy mind. I start with my H, I go to my E, and this is how I engage in a conversation. And even that alone of advocating for myself, I think is really practiced in some spaces that are sexual and not in others, even though you would think it would be. And so even the act of that conversation, I could tell was disruptive to this person and how they like to interact.

Sara (51:14.542)
And so when it came, my intuition was curious. And sometimes it could be hard to know if curiosity is something you want to lean into, or curiosity means let's not. But my curiosity leaned in. found myself just in a room, me and this one other person. And my gut was telling me to be disruptive and say, you know what, is it OK if we just cuddle? I just wasn't into it. I wasn't feeling it connected. I wasn't feeling. I was like.

this person's cute, but I just, don't want to. They weren't present in a way that I like to feel present. And even just being, I felt so powerful being disruptive of just saying, is, I just want to cuddle. And then leaving the room and not caring about that person feelings. You know, I really am very conditioned to, to particularly, you know, I enjoy intimacy with.

many genders, but particularly with anybody with a penis, I'm just like, there's a penis, the penis needs to be happy. If the penis is not happy, then I have failed the game. And to just say, know what? Nope, not interested was disruptive within itself in that space.

Sage D (52:30.306)
Yes, think recognizing the ways that we have forgo- forgone.

sense of pleasure and safety because we feel the pressure to provide pleasure and safety for other people. Right? And especially as women, that socialization to be desirable but not have desires. Right? You are to be desired, to be sought after, to be seen, to be admired, but you are not meant to have needs or wants or requests. Right? And so to your point, that act of

Sara (52:47.416)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (53:09.002)
No, I'm not gonna do anything sexual with you because that doesn't feel right for me. And being able to move into that place of what is pleasurable for me in this moment and to what point. Because pleasure for me might be just holding your hand. It might just be sitting next to you. It might just be chatting with you. It's not actually having sex with you. And...

I think we all need to spend more time with ourselves knowing, do I want to escalate this to this level of physical intimacy or do I actually want something different? Because that actually brings me more pleasure. Because we can also synonymize pleasure with certain acts and certain things, right? And so making sure that we're also releasing control of the idea that pleasure is a certain thing or looks a certain way.

So I'm curious, based on our conversation and kind of thinking about pleasure and things like that, is there anything that's sticking out for you about your soil or what you feel like you have in terms of nourishment or roots for your garden that you feel like you might be working on or that's really like surfacing for you?

Sara (54:35.374)
So I feel there was a time in my life where I did not feel comfortable with my shirt off, didn't feel comfortable with my body, didn't feel comfortable receiving or giving pleasure. I feel really comfortable with those things right now and in my power and confident. But where I have noticed I want to use those skills in other ways in my life,

is around dinner. I find it really challenging to sit and just enjoy food or have neutrality with it. And so I'm wanting to take some of that confidence and some of those tools around my meals and make it a more pleasurable experience for me, even if it looks different than other people, of when I...

am eating, just putting just enough that I live on this planet, I deserve to feel good on this planet and to nourish my body in ways that feel good to me. And just to be curious about what that can look like when I eat dinner, the way I have been curious about it for sex and all it entails. So I'm wanting to get intimate with my dinner.

you

Sage D (56:03.682)
I love it. I love that so much. That's amazing. I think for me, I am really the through line right now that I'm really working through is group stuff. I've really been exploring a lot of group play with my current partner and working through.

Working through my shame around receiving pleasure, around sharing and watching my partner with other people and enjoying group dynamics and enjoying that type of play, I feel a lot of shame around that. There is a lot of narrative out there about how shameful that is and how wrong that is and how we avoid that constantly. so even being too close to your friends is something that I feel like is vilified in a lot of ways. And so I'm just...

Sara (56:44.952)
Mm-hmm.

Sage D (56:54.562)
I'm really picking through a lot right now. I've been going through a lot of parties lately and doing a lot of group play. And so I'm really in an integration phase right now, a processing phase right now. It's been going really well, but I'm definitely noticing where my capacity edges are for receiving pleasure around that and where my shame is telling me certain stories. so, yeah, that's interesting.

Sara (57:14.958)
Mm-hmm.

And it's dancing with other people's conditioning as well at the same time, because you can sense the person in room that also is carrying a similar wound to you and wanting them to feel comfortable. And so it brings up so much. You know, I always say sometimes the hardest, the hardest thing, for example, in polyamory for me has not been jealousy is what people will think of. It's been seeing my partner be heartbroken and.

Sage D (57:24.813)
Yes.

Sage D (57:30.136)
Yes.

Sara (57:48.364)
Sometimes the hardest thing, I think, in exploring other sexual dynamics, casual group play, for example, is surprising what it ends up being. It's like holding space when somebody else I can tell is bringing up feelings inside me of shame because of how they feel about their own body. you know, it's just really interesting.

Sage D (58:16.258)
Yeah, absolutely. And feeling that projection from other people, feeling other people's shame stories, it's why group dynamics, not just in the sexual capacity, but healing and working through some of these things together is so interesting because none of us, none of us got away unscathed by the socialization and the shame and all of that. And so there's something very beautiful about being in it together.

about healing that together, feeling pleasure together. It can be really beautiful.

Sara (58:45.848)
Mm-hmm.

Sara (58:52.974)
This was lovely. I'm really glad that we had a very vulnerable, authentic conversation today for the internet. I'm not sure how I'm feeling about this one, that's probably my intuition saying that it means it's important to me.

Sage D (58:58.306)
Yeah.

Sage D (59:11.126)
Yeah, this was, I think this was a really good, deep conversation and I'm excited to continue our conversations and just continue our work together. I think it's so needed in this world right now and I hope that people resonate with this particular episode. I know we talked about some really deep things here and yeah, I just want to honor that I know.

If you know me, then you probably are very comfortable with what I said around some of the things that we talked about today. But if I'm new to you and you don't know me and anything I said rubbed you the wrong way or maybe offended you or brought something up for you, I'm gonna invite you into your process around that. just know that everything I do say is always from a place of love and care for all of us. And again, just supporting you and wanting you to.

be able to move out of a place where you no longer see yourself as a victim, because I think that's so important. hope that whenever you're ready to be in that space that we can meet you here. And also just know that that space is really hard to be into, and I've been there too. And so much love to you wherever you are in your journey on this. In receiving pleasure and being open to pleasure, it's...

It's a journey for all of us. And no matter where you are, what's coming up for you, you are so loved and so cared for and so worthy and so seen. And I hope that as you continue your journey and as you continue to plant your seeds and work through your soil and tend to your garden, that all of the things that you plant come to bloom for you. And so.

With that being said, think we will wrap up this particular episode and wherever your longing leads you, I hope you stay turned on by your truth.

Sage D (01:01:05.262)
Bye bye.