[S1EP1] Why Pastoral Succession Matters More Than You Think | Pastoral Succession

In the inaugural episode of the LeadingSmart podcast, co-hosts Holly Tate and Tim Stevens delve into the crucial topic of pastoral succession. They discuss the importance of being prepared for both planned and emergency successions, especially as many baby boomer pastors approach retirement. The episode touches on common misconceptions about succession planning, the emotional and identity challenges pastors face during transitions, and offers insights into the best timing for these conversations. Tune in for a thoughtful exploration of how churches can navigate leadership transitions smoothly and effectively. Plus, enjoy a fun segment of 'Rants vs. Raves,' where Holly and Tim share their personal likes and dislikes.

00:00 Introduction and Tragic Story
00:17 Welcome to the Leading Smart Podcast
01:20 Why Pastoral Succession Matters
03:15 Planned vs. Emergency Succession
05:52 Misconceptions About Succession
07:27 Emotional and Identity Challenges
11:04 Rants and Raves
15:19 Conclusion and Next Episode Preview

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Transcript

Worked with the church a few years ago where the pastor is super healthy. He was a runner, marathon runner just dropped dead. He's 48 years old. Dropped dead while he was on a run. Yeah. And that church was immediately forced into the succession conversation and hadn't, was not well prepared for that.

Hey everybody. Welcome to episode one of the LeadingSmart podcast. This is our inaugural, our very first episode, our very first season, and we're talking all about pastoral succession. I'm Holly Tate. I. Your co-host and I'm joined today by the one and only the founder, the genius. I call him the Yoda of church leaders, Tim Stevens.

That seems a bit excessive, but glad to be here. I idea was quite on. Okay, I skipped the Yoda part. Makes me sound. Maybe it's the ball. No, like Yoda. You know, Baby Yoda is so popular right now. , I'll call me baby Yoda. That'd be great. That'd be [00:01:00] awesome. That's awesome. Well, Tim, how are you feeling? This is our first episode of our first season of the LeadingSmart podcast.

You've been like bending my arm for years Yep. To do a podcast and I finally gave in. You did. So I'm, I am actually excited, I'm excited about this topic. I'm excited about kinda where we're going. With the podcast. I love the idea of doing seasons. I think that's gonna be great. So it's gonna be fun. That's awesome.

Why are we starting out with pastoral succession as our very first topic of the LeadingSmart podcast? Yeah, that's been, a burden area, an area that I've worked with a ton of pastors on succession, and it's such a pivotal moment in the life of the pastor and the life of the church.

A lot of these pastors have been there for 30, 35, 40 years. Yeah. And so it's a significant thing for the church. And you see so many churches getting it wrong. So many leaders that they had no intention of hurting their church, but by how they leave, it hurts their church. And these are like preventable problems.

So it's, I think it's a very [00:02:00] important conversation to dive into. I think it's also a really important conversation for this moment in time because the data. I love this organization called Ryle that does a lot of multi-generational data and topics, and the latest data that they've put out, they say that by 2030, which is only five years away, which is crazy, for the most part, baby boomers will be retired from the workforce.

Yeah, of course that's not true across the board, right? 'cause we still have some of the silent generation that's sticking around. But that means in the next five years, we will see a large majority of the workforce being fully retired, and that impacts the church. Just like any other business or nonprofit as well.

So are you seeing that a lot right now? You've been in church leadership now for what, over 30 years? And so are you seeing succession become a, um, more popular topic just because of the woman in time we're living in as well? It is. There's a lot of, boomer pastors who, right now are thinking like, okay, I'm 1, 2, 4 years away from transition.

I may or may not have someone on my [00:03:00] team who I think can take my place, but I don't really know. I don't know what the church is gonna do next. Some of these pastors have just dreams about what they would like to do next, but they've got their identity so, so tight with the church. So lots of those conversations happening.

Yeah. Okay. You just touched on this a minute ago, but let's talk about the difference in succession. So there's planned succession you just mentioned, some pastors are thinking right now, 1, 2, 4 years ahead. I just talked to a pastor yesterday. That's thinking four years ahead, which is amazing.

Yep. And then we have our emergency successions. Yeah. So we're gonna dive into that in detail in episodes further along in this season, but just kinda give us an overview about the difference between those two and. Why each are important to think about? Yeah, and probably a foundation of all of our conversations are gonna be related to the fact that every pastor is going to have a succession.

They may plan it, they may not. Worked with the church a few years ago, worked the pastor, super healthy. He was a runner, marathon [00:04:00] runner just dropped dead. He's 48 years old. Dropped dead while he was on a run. Yeah. And that church was immediately forced into the succession conversation and hadn't.

Was not well prepared for that. And we'll unpack this as we go along of uh, this emergency succession where I think every church, if it's your first week, you should have an emergency succession plan that's baked in. And then the more kind of intentional plan, like if this plays out and 60 or 65 when I want to step away or when others think I should step away, which sometimes is a conversation.

Then what's that look like as well? So it'll be fun to unpack both of those. Yeah. What about too early versus not early enough. So like the pastor I was talking to the other day, I loved his intentionality. He's read several books on the topic. He's thinking four years ahead, he's already talked to the board about how he wants to retire in 2030 and have a really healthy transition.

And part of me wondered. Four years, like I can barely think next week ahead, which is [00:05:00] probably a me problem. Um, You're nodding your head yes. Four years is a great amount of time to have the conversation, so yeah. Tell us more how long is too early and when is it not early enough? I think for the conversation it, there's never a too early.

I think the conversation should be happening. In fact at Willow Creek, Dave Dummitt and I the very first week started talking about succession, and wow. And a sense of like, we dunno if it's five or 10 or 20 years out, but a sense of like, let's start having this conversation now because neither one of us are gonna be in this seat forever.

And so I think you can't start too early. I think as far as getting like into the intentional planning and when we at LeadingSmart kind of join up with the church to walk through this, it's usually in the one to four year range. I talked to a church recently that was about 10 years out.

It's let's dive in and have some good conversations. But there's some groundwork you can lay, which we'll talk about, but I think you're getting into the actually intentional, the work of the plan about one to four years out. Yeah. Well, So you've got, there's four common misconceptions that leaders have about succession that I've heard you mention before.

And the first is that, which. You should wait [00:06:00] until you are ready to retire. Yeah. Um, So you just mentioned that. What are the three others that are the misconceptions that we need to be aware of? Yeah. One of 'em is that you'll know when it's time to transition that like you personally will know.

Not necessarily. We all talk about being self-aware and we all think we're self-aware and we all think everyone else is not self-aware. We all lack that a little bit. I really do think so. And so we need people around us speaking into that. And so you don't, you won't necessarily know, like you won't wake up one day and think, oh, okay, I think it's time.

It's probably gonna be an unpacking, it's gonna be a journey. It's gonna be a lot of prayer with you and your spouse, with maybe your board, with some key people that are close to you to kind of tap into that. So I think that's, that's a common myth. I think also a common myth or misconception is that you'll know when someone else will be more effective than you.

There's a sense of oh wow, I have someone on my team, they're ready. And it's okay, now's the time. I don't think that necessarily is a trigger. It could be a trigger and we'll talk about that. But I don't think it necessarily is a trigger. And a lot of [00:07:00] guys will, a lot of pastors and leaders.

We'll wait until they have that person and then they don't ever have that person. Or that person comes and stays for a while and then they leave. When the pastor was ready to say, Hey, I think you're my replacement. And then they're gone. They got a job offer somewhere else. Yeah. That's so true.

And I love what you said about how we all think we're self-aware. And even if you are self-aware, I think what I've seen pastors who are facing the succession conversation is. The realization once it hits that the emotional the spiritual and even the like professional identity that's so tied up into yeah, being a pastor, that you can have a plan and be self-aware.

But at the end of the day, it is an emotional and heavy process often, even if it's a good thing and a celebratory thing. And it's that way for, often in the retirement conversation of succession. Which re retirement and succession are not always no synonymous. Yeah. I think that's also a misconception, right?

Yeah. I think transition is maybe a better word. Yes. [00:08:00] Because almost always these pastors, they still have gas in the tank. They still have ideas, they still have things that they want to pursue. They still have dreams. And they're, most of them are not like, oh, I just wanna go golf, for the rest of my life.

They're like, they have other things that they want to do or could do, or they're passionate about. So I think that's probably a, a misconception as well is like people think I don't wanna retire. So succession isn't necessarily about retirement. Some uh, pastors will call it that and they're going to move and they're gonna be closer to their kids and they're gonna invest in their grandkids and whatever.

But a lot of 'em, it's more of a transition than it is a retirement. That's a great point. We're gonna unpack transition and succession in lots of detail across season one. We're gonna have 10 episodes on this topic of pastoral succession. Build with resources along the way.

We're gonna be talking about how your board has a responsibility in all of this, and what do those conversations look like. We're gonna talk about finances, both personally and with the church. We're gonna talk about internal versus external candidates [00:09:00] um, and even more across these 10 episodes. So, um, Can't wait to learn more from you, Tim, about all of this.

One of the ones you, you mentioned a minute ago was just how weighty this is, and even emotional for the pastor. We're gonna have a whole episode. Just talking about that because you give your life to something. A lot of these pastors have started the church. So they've been there for 25, 30, 35.

I worked with one pastor 44 years that he, since he had founded the church and like your, like you mentioned, like your identity it's an emotional decision that you can't even, like these pastors, they know it's gonna be hard. They don't know how hard it's gonna be. And what they're gonna go through, what their spouse is gonna go through their family.

Just the sense of uncoupling their identity from that church and then figuring out what is next. It's, that's a difficult journey to go through. And you've seen that firsthand, Tim, 'cause you've walked with hundreds of churches through succession process. Starting, you've been coaching leaders for what decades?

Probably 25 plus years. And then at Vanderman where you were the VP of [00:10:00] consulting, walking with churches, and now at LeadingSmart, even in the last year. How many churches have you walked alongside or pastors have you walked right alongside in this succession conversation? Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, there's so many pastors that are in this conversation right now, and it's a um, vulnerable topic to bring up, like a lot of pastors.

Feel like if they bring it up to their board or to their staff, that they're gonna lose control of the narrative or the pace or the timing or their choices. I think every leader, even if they appear secure, they carry some insecurity. Yeah. And so the insecurity is that maybe they already want me gone, so if I bring it up, they're gonna.

Push me out or it's this, I'm gonna lose control of the pace of how this thing rolls out. But yet they need some people to talk to about it. Yeah. I mean, they need, They need to be able to have conversations to help 'em just discover themselves if this is the right time. And that's a great point because, and the next episode two, we're actually gonna talk about this very topic.

When is. [00:11:00] The right time to start talking about succession. But before we let you go, we have a segment, a part of the LeadingSmart podcast that's called Rant versus Raves. Yeah. Which each week could pick. This is perfect for both of us. Pick, yeah, pick if we're gonna have a rant or if we're gonna have a rave.

And we've heard each other for years, our rants and raves. I maybe I've heard more rants from you than raves. It's true. It's true. Which maybe you're gonna start with a rant. I don't know. Today I am starting with a rant. Okay. I think it's probably the one that you've heard from me the most. Do you have a guess of what it is?

I think yes. And just so you know, this has nothing to do with succession. We're like, yeah, this is just hard. Right. Turn Holly, Tim, what we love and what we don't love, I'm gonna guess it has something to do with. The flight you took to get up here yesterday. It sure does. Okay. It sure does. Let's talk about it.

My rant is United Airlines, which is a rave of Tims, but anyway, I love United Airlines. Yeah. This kind of started when we were both at Vanderman together and we're on flights a lot, [00:12:00] and I'm a Southwest Airlines loyalist, which I'll save that for a rave later. That's a rave later. But even the process of boarding with United, I hate the zoned system.

It's like a herd of people. And Tim always says, but if you were faithful, then you'd already be on the plane. You just have to be like committed to your airline and then they treat you well. You mean you have to spend lots and lots of money. And so it's like a, you just have to like a tiered, it's like a marriage holly cast system.

It's like a marriage. That's what it's like. You don't keep playing the field. You like commit right? In a marriage. So it's like that. Mm. Anyway, I hate the herd process goes in. Okay. Here's a perfect example of why United is my rant. So we board the plane. I'm in a middle seat because I was one of the last to board and also the last to buy your ticket.

No comment. And the flight attendant is helping this woman who was confused about where to put her bag and he was. Friendly, but with this sarcastic tone. And then at the very, she was like, thank you for your help. And at [00:13:00] the very end he goes, oh, always an attitude of service. And then rolled his eyes.

I'm like, I feel like you're overdramatizing. Oh no, I am nailing it. That's exactly what happened. But just the, it was just this like he was. Seeped in sarcasm to be fair, your rant is really against the legacy airlines and I, and it just happens to be united for you. 'cause if you're not flying Southwest, you live in Houston, you're gonna be on United.

I would say that's true, but United in particular, I feel is the, like I've flown Delta, I've flown American, and to me there's just this like cold everything from their brand to the experience. It's. Cold. It's separation like first class is like completely separate in a way. That's true. On American Delta.

They're four. They're like guarding the first class people, like they're so special and, or the peasants in the back and your airline is gonna have first class here soon, southwest has, everybody has first class at Southwest. Not soon. They're gonna have separate cabins. Yeah. No comment.

Okay. So what's your rave? Tim Stevens. All right. So I did [00:14:00] choose a rave this time, not a rant. Um, And it's I, I could choose United Airlines 'cause that actually I am very committed to them. I think they're great. But uh, so have you heard of this TV show on Netflix called Adolescence? You've mentioned it to me.

Yes. I, my, I've not watched it. That's my brave Okay. Amazing show. From several different reasons. The, so every, there's four episodes. Every episode is shot with one shot. And if you do, don't watch the behind the scenes till you watch the show, but the but then watch the behind the scenes and you'll see how they're like handing off the steady cam camera, putting it on a drone, handing it, putting it in a car, all these things.

So that, but it's like one continuous shot. So it's just genius how they shot it. The storyline is phenomenal. The acting, especially the 13-year-old, that's kind of the center of the uh, storyline is is just amazing, especially when you consider he's shooting this in one shot. But it's such a great show.

It's heavy. It's uh, it's weighty, it's emotional. [00:15:00] So if you're the type like my wife who like shows all kind of like neatly tied up by the end and everyone lives happily ever after, maybe not your thing, but. If you don't wanna watch the show, watch, at least watch episode three. Lemme just tell you that.

And you'll be fine and you'll be able to appreciate the show, but Fantastic. You're like the fifth person that said that that's raved about it. It's raved about it. Yeah. Thanks for joining us on episode one. Join us for episode two. Next we're gonna talk about when it's time to talk about succession. 

Hey everybody. Thanks for listening to today's episode. I wanted to invite you to download our pastoral succession ebook at leadingsmart.com. Mm-hmm. We do a deep dive of all of the things that we've been talking about this season, and so you can download it for free@leadingsmart.com and walk through it by yourself or your team, or your board.

So go to leadingsmart.com to download the pastoral succession ebook today.

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