Beyond the Iron Throne: Inside the Game of Thrones Fandom

One wrong wedding toast can rewrite an entire story, and Game of Thrones proved it on a global scale. We sit down at Fandom Outpost Studios with our friend Jami to unpack why Westeros still feels sharper, darker, and more addictive than most modern fantasy, especially with House of the Dragon ramping back up. 

We get into the essentials of A Song of Ice and Fire by George R R Martin: from the seven kingdoms of Westeros to the mix of political intrigue, backstabbing, and just enough magic to keep you uneasy. Jami helps us break down how real medieval history feeds the lore, why the HBO series became such a cultural force, and where new viewers should start if the books feel like a mountain. 

If you’re a longtime fan or a total newcomer, hit play, share the episode with your favorite House loyalist, and leave us a review so more listeners can find the show. What moment made you realize nobody in Westeros is safe?

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Transcript

Studio Updates And Weekend Wins

SPEAKER_04 0:00

All right, coming to you from Phantom Outpost Studios. We're here for episode 29.

SPEAKER_05 0:08

Like you just hit all the buttons. Like a cat. I love the record scratch. Oh gosh. I can't believe that. Do we need to take that again? We're good.

SPEAKER_04 0:19

No, we're fine. We're fine. Perfect. Well, Nick, how you doing?

SPEAKER_08 0:23

I'm great, man. I have been hard at work. Yes, you have been on uh uh Phantom Outpost 2, which uh there'll be more word coming on that here before too long. I'll you know, maybe actually maybe I should put out that rendering that you sent to me, Ben.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Like, yeah, put out a teaser for everyone to kind of get hyped, you know.

SPEAKER_08 0:41

I don't be as hyped as I am, but I'm I'm really excited. I mean, not even just to have a studio space, but just to have a finished basement that um can hang out in and you know, that's makes my house worth more money. That's you know that priorities. I mean I gotcha. I hear you. There's gotta be a financial component to it, right? Like that's the way it goes. That's you know, we're all adults. Yep, yeah. But anyways, yeah. Uh oh, that's right. Ben and I actually had uh had an exciting couple days here. I you know, we got to got to go to the uh Origins board game festival, and that was awesome. Incredible.

SPEAKER_06 1:18

We we went for one of like four days, and uh next year I think we will be going to all four days because it was incredible. Yeah, we got to play tests like six games at least. Yeah. Uh we spent way too much money and bought a lot. Um but it was a great time. And yeah, like you know, they had like you know, you could uh join DD campaigns, you could test brand new things that they just wanted people to give feedback on. They had other, yeah, like I mean, you could paint minis and stuff like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:48

I felt like it was an event that was made directly for me. I just I I really enjoyed the fact that I could walk around, somebody's like, hey, you want me to teach you a board game? I'm like, yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_06 1:58

And they'll they'll ask you, like, do you want the two-minute version or the five-minute version? Always the five-minute game. We were here for this, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:06

Um but no, it was it was a lot of fun. I really I enjoyed that a whole lot, and I was glad that I got to go with Ben.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

That was definitely the highlight of my last few weeks, too. Wow, yeah. I I think the text where you guys invited me, I just must have missed it or something.

SPEAKER_08 2:17

Sorry, Mikey.

SPEAKER_06 2:19

If you would sit down and play a board game with us, then yeah, we'll invite you. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_08 2:23

I don't know if I've ever, let's see. If I ever played a board game with Mikey, did did you ever play Quelf with us? I don't remember that. Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_04 2:29

Okay, we did play that a lot. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:32

Man, that was that was the game. That was college right there. Playing Quelf. Quelf and Katan.

SPEAKER_06 2:37

Shout out to anyone who knows Quelf. Yeah. It's a great game. It's a great game. It's a great game. Uh Mikey, what's what's new with you?

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Yeah, well, I'm you know, I'm riding high off the weekend. We had a wedding. My wife and I were both in the wedding, and uh, yeah, our friends from church, and just so much fun. It was incredible. Um, just great time with friends. Father's Day was great, just had an awesome day. My in-laws were in town for the first half of it, and then uh Yeah, I went to church, just got pizza afterwards. Like it was just a great weekend. I mean, like Friday, Saturday, Sunday were all great. So um, yeah, I had a really fun time. Awesome. Ben, what uh besides the festival, did you do anything in the last week?

SPEAKER_06 3:17

Uh let's see, I saw one of my favorite bands, the Arcadian Wild. They were in town, saw them at the Roomba Cafe. That was a really good time. If you're into some folk music, especially just like a four-piece, like they they do great stuff. Um went to the also went to the Columbus Arts Festival, which I have something for Nick that will be in our new studio that um we'll reveal at some point.

SPEAKER_08 3:36

Dude, I didn't I thought the the arts festival was earlier in the summer because I always I always want to go and then I forget to look and see like what weekend it happens in.

SPEAKER_06 3:44

Yeah, it was two weekends ago.

SPEAKER_08 3:46

Okay, that makes sense, yeah. That sounds right.

SPEAKER_06 3:48

But yeah, that was a good time too. Highly recommend.

SPEAKER_08 3:51

No, it's uh that's another fun, fun thing. I mean, there's I feel like Columbus has so many great festivals and things like that. But that was that's one that I really thoroughly enjoy as well. I'm sad that I missed it again. I need to like look it up beforehand and like, all right, let's put this in the calendar for next year. That way I can remember, you know, these some of these dates.

SPEAKER_06 4:08

There's there's got to be like a Columbus festival calendar out there. No, I'm sure there is.

Why Game Of Thrones Now

SPEAKER_06 4:12

Well, anyways, uh today we are talking Game of Thrones, which I'm super excited about, especially with the new season of House of the Dragon just premiering this weekend. And uh a good friend Jamie is joining us. Longtime um DD player with me and Nick for a while. Yeah, and uh sister-in-law to Keith, who's been on. So yeah, happy to have you. Yes, that's that's how we do. Until we start getting some big names on this podcast. It's what we gotta do. Which will come someday. Yeah, one day. One day, maybe. Uh, anyways, so let's get us started, Nick. Why don't you introduce us?

SPEAKER_08 4:50

Hello and welcome to Fandom of Fandoms, the show where every single episode we are diving into the worlds that fans love the most. And this week we are talking Game of Thrones, and there is a lot of content that we could definitely talk about today. So I'll I'll I'll be interested to see where the the conversation goes. You know, there's books, there's shows, there's games, there's I mean, just so much stuff to talk about. So let's go ahead and dive in. Um, I believe, I think uh who am I supposed to pass?

SPEAKER_06 5:18

I'm gonna give us a little bit of an overview, and again, I'll I might butcher a lot. Jamie, do you know when the books came out? That's one thing I didn't look up.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Yeah, so the first book was released in 1996. Okay. 30 years ago. That's crazy. And the most recent book was released 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_06 5:33

So it's been a 15-year gap, and we still have not gotten the last two books, which Michael and I were and Jamie and I were talking about a little before since Michael doesn't know a lot about it. But uh yeah, so we'll get into it. It started with the book series, uh, the first book being called A Game of Thrones, the the saga being called A Song of Ice and Fire, uh, written by George R. R. Martin, as Jamie said, coming out first in 1996. Uh there are currently five books out. Yeah, and two more supposedly on the way. Um, but they've also spawned some offshoots of the books themselves. These had individual novels and stuff like that. Uh the show itself, or the show and the book it themselves uh cover uh a place called Westeros, a fantasy world, where there are seven kingdoms on this one continent. Um, and it kind of starts off with the death of the hand of the king, like the right-hand man, uh, which spawns a lot of controversy, who caused it, etc. And uh amongst that, like all these kingdoms start warring for power. There's a lot of deaths, there's a lot of um, yeah, like backstabbing, political intrigue, there's some romance stuff that happens, and there are dragons. Um yeah, I that's I I don't know how else to go into it without like just telling the whole story, which will take us the the the show took, I think I looked it up like 73 plus hours or something like that. So we don't have that much time. But we will get into what we can.

SPEAKER_08 6:55

There's a lot of things that we could talk about.

SPEAKER_06 6:57

I feel like we'll mostly stick with the the books and the main show. Like, because there are two s spin-off shows, uh there's House of the Dragon and there's A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, which both based on other works of novellas, yeah. One of them being more of a textbook.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Well, yeah, so the House of the Dragon is based off of from the beginning, it was a short story within like an anthology series called Dangerous Women, and then um they expanded by putting out kind of an encyclopedia of the world of ice and fire called Fire and Blood. And that's where they you know drew out a lot more of the story that they've based the show on.

SPEAKER_06 7:37

Yeah. So um before we kick it off to Jamie. Oh, sorry, Nate. I wouldn't interrupt a minute ago.

SPEAKER_08 7:41

I didn't even remember from the it's been so long since I've watched like the first episode. Who was the the the hand of the king before he goes to Edard? John Aaron, yeah. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

Yeah, so and he, you know, he kind of had raised Ed Stark and Robert Baratheon up from boys, and so they were all kind of real close together.

SPEAKER_06 7:57

Yeah. Uh husband of Lisa Aaron of the Veil. Okay. Catelyn's sister.

SPEAKER_08 8:03

Yeah, and she doesn't show up until much later in the what is that? Like is that season? Is this season one?

SPEAKER_03 8:07

I think she's in season one. She's in a letter at the very beginning, the very first episode. She's the one that kind of hints that John Aaron's death was not necessarily natural, so she's got suspicions.

SPEAKER_06 8:18

Yeah, so lots of lots of twists and turns. And one of the biggest things that I think caught the world by storm when the show came out was just like the shock factor of a lot of these reveals, twists, etc. So that that was one of the biggest things. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Uh one of the best characters ever dies, episode nine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Do we have a spoiler?

SPEAKER_06 8:40

Yes, uh, you know nothing, Jon Snow.

unknown 8:43

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

SPEAKER_06 8:44

I figure that's a good spoiler one. Yeah, that's it. But I again, like, this has all been out for a while. So if if you don't know, then I have to I do I do have to continue my confession.

SPEAKER_08 8:55

I still did not watch the You never did, then the the season or the series uh finale that was I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

I just I find that kind of impressive to make it all the way to the last episode and be like, nope, I'm I'm good.

SPEAKER_08 9:08

I don't even know what like it wasn't even like a a choice that I made at first because I I don't know, some people were like, I especially after watching the last episode, you know, wanted to just said a whole lot of terrible things about it, whatever. And it wasn't like I heard that and I was like, ah, I'm just not gonna watch it. It was more like, uh, you know what? I I know what happens. I guess I just don't want to expose myself to the the drama of it all. I don't know. I I didn't uh well we'll we can get into it later, but it was yeah, I I I didn't find it too surprising the direction with which they chose to end the show based off of the last season.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

So there's not spoilers for you. No. You just didn't see it happen.

SPEAKER_08 9:47

No, I I didn't watch it, but I know the I know this the end of the story. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 9:52

Gotcha. Well, Mikey, I know that you're the one person around the table who doesn't know much about it, so why don't you tell us what you do know just of picking it up from culture?

SPEAKER_04 10:00

Yeah, well, it's funny you say that because it is such it's so prevalent in our culture at you know, the show. And um, I actually thought this was way older than the nine the 90s, to be honest with you. I thought the same thing. Yeah, I don't know, it just has that kind of vibe, you know. Yeah, um, just like that fantasy, you know. I think like old time yeah, I'm yeah, I'm thinking like Lord of the Rings or something like that. Yeah, you know, absolutely. But anyway, but yeah, I've never seen the show, never seen any of the spin-offs. Um I know some of the memes, you know, like uh but honestly, that's really the extent of it. So I'm definitely excited for you guys to expose me. Well, spoilers. So spoilers.

SPEAKER_06 10:36

Well, I don't think Michael's ever gonna watch it. So that's true. Uh Nick, what's your background of the show?

SPEAKER_08 10:41

Uh yeah, I've I've seen uh a decent amount. So I've I've obviously I've seen the the the entirety of the main series. Minus one. Uh minus the last episode. Um I have read the first two books, I think. Um and I've played some of the game, like the the telltale game. Um that's that's one thing. So like I've some of the media that's out there, and then I did uh a little bit of of House of Dragon, and it didn't grab me quite enough. Like that I was latched on and just could like you didn't stick around long enough. Eventually I want to come back to it maybe, but um yeah, just I don't know. I whatever, for whatever reason. Like I I loved actually the actors and stuff that weren't were phenomenal. I just I didn't have as big of a a draw to it as I did to the main series personally.

SPEAKER_06 11:33

What about you, Ben? What's your background? Yeah, so I didn't start watching the show immediately. I started maybe at the beginning of season two. Like a lot of friends were into it, and I was like, I guess I should check out this thing, and immediately was sucked in. It's exactly like my uh right up my alley. Uh after I've caught up with the wherever I was in the second season, I've read all the books since. Only only once, but I mean, yeah, um, still have read them. Um, I mean, I guess uh Fire and Blood, I've maybe leafed through since again it reads more like a textbook. Yeah. And but uh I did read Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. That was hands down like my favorite portion, I guess, of the story, even though it's not part of the main series.

SPEAKER_08 12:12

I've heard good things about the series. I don't know, I haven't tried it yet, is it?

SPEAKER_06 12:15

I I've seen the first episode and I keep meaning to go back. It's just it's uh I fallen off my watch list. I need to go back to it because I've heard great things too. Jamie and I were just talking about it beforehand too, and yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to it. But I'm also looking forward to again House of the Dragon, which just came out this past weekend, the first one. So I want to get back into that too.

SPEAKER_08 12:32

What are they on now? Season three, season three, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Nice. Yeah, awesome. Well, let's yeah, I mean, let's kick it over to uh Jamie, our guest.

Jamie’s Origin Story With Westeros

SPEAKER_04 12:40

So I guess just to kind of start things off, how I mean, how did you originally get into uh Game of Thrones?

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Yeah, accidentally. Um coincidentally, the maybe the day or the day after my niece came home from the hospital, so when she was born, I stopped by my sister's house to drop off some stuff. And she said, Oh, we're having people over to watch the show because we have HBO and they don't. So they had a few friends stopping by and they said, You want to stick around and watch the show? And so I watched the first episode and then immediately went and got books. Uh-huh. And um, so I I was hooked from the beginning and started reading the books, you know, well ahead of when the show was keeping pace with them. And um, so then by the time the fifth book came out, I was caught up and ready for that one to to be released. So um right away it drew me in and I had had no knowledge of it beforehand.

SPEAKER_08 13:33

So see, I would have guessed that you saw the that you read the books before you watched the series, but it wasn't you you discovered the series first. So there we go.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

Same way I did Lord of the Rings, first first movie, and I was like, I better go get some books.

SPEAKER_06 13:43

Yeah, I think I feel like that's our generation, though. Well, yeah, like uh Nick's Nick Two, right? Yeah for movies first uh for Lord of the Rings.

SPEAKER_08 13:52

For Lord of the Rings. Um that's prob probably. Okay. Probably, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 13:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

It's a it's a it's a backwards way to go at it, I guess.

SPEAKER_08 14:02

Yeah, very cool. Then you've kind of uh it's it's nice when you can almost because then you're not I I think I've said this before. I feel like when you read the book, you're automatically just like you're spoiled, you you want it to be to fill in this gap of what you hope it's gonna be, and then you're you're gonna you're setting your yourself up to be disappointed. That's the that's the key thing when you do uh books first. But when you can discover the movie or the series and you're like, I'm just watching this as its own thing, you can kind of appreciate it for what it is and not be constantly making that comparison to the written works of it. So I don't know, there's a lot to be said. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:35

No, that makes sense. What um so obviously you fallen in love with the series, you read the books. I what is it about like the world that kind of keeps you coming back?

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Yeah, so in general, I am a big fantasy literature genre reader. So um, and for me, it's usually the world building that gets me in in those series. So, you know, the richer, the deeper the lore is is always what draws me in. And this one, you know, it's it's very history-based too. So if you are kind of a history nerd, then some of the events within the series, you know, The Red Wedding was based on a real event in Scottish history called the Black Dinner. And the the um the Starks and the Lannisters are a lot like the War of the Roses with the Yorks and the I can't say Lancaster's Lancasters. Lancasters. I never really knew that. Yeah, so he draws on a lot of like medieval European history for you know, the wall, like Hadrian's Wall and the Wildlings or like the Celtic warriors who fought against the Romans, and you know, even a little bit like in Essos when you get into the n the other continent that's in this world, it's a lot like on the Roman Empire kind of feel. So if you like history and you like, you know, the kind of world building in the fantasy genre, it's really easy to get drawn into this series.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

Yeah, very cool. I mean, there are so many you know, huge popular fantasy series out there now. Like I don't know, I guess what what is about Game of Thrones that kind of stands out from these other like popular fantasy series?

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Yeah, so this one I know Ben has mentioned a couple of times, you know, the political intrigue and the the romance and and that kind of stuff. I think it draws a lot of people in who wouldn't otherwise be interested in fantasy. And you know, it's a lot of the um alliances and rivalries and that kind of stuff, I think is pretty relatable as far as you know the the world we live in today. So um I think it has a lot more broad appeal than some of the more high fantasy kind of writings.

SPEAKER_06 16:28

I I think that it does a great job of though it is a set in a fantasy world, it feels very real and just the characters how they act, like they are all very self-motivated. And like, I mean, again, like given our current political climate and stuff like that, it just feels like it it's very reminiscent of that. And the fact that it's in the fantasy world just is like a backseat as opposed to like you know, like Lord of the Rings or something else that's like that's the forefront of like, yeah, these mystical creatures, this mystical place. Like it's just it happens to be in that world, but it's about very real things.

SPEAKER_08 16:58

There is magic, but it's not focused on the magic, it's focused on the uh human uh relationships and I was thinking how like the the books themselves I I was always interested, like when I started reading the first one and how it almost it was very obvious that I don't know, I don't know if George R. R. Martin like knew that he wanted to have it. I guess it's a dream of anybody, like oh I want to make a a a movie or a a series off of my novel or whatever, but like just the way that it's written is very cinematic. Um you know, it it's the the chapters are are starting off with the the the characters and then that it's I mean almost I I don't know, like that they're they're telling that character story in that chapter and then they'll jump over and this is what's going on with this character to say and I guess that's you know that's books in general, but like something about it just very much sets up this scene by scene of what's happening that they can jump from this story and then oh well at the same time, this is going on. Yeah, I don't know. It's it's very cinematic to me, it has that feel.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

And he has done screenwriting as as part of his um background. They I don't know exactly what all his credits are, but I know he wrote for the um was it in the 80s, the Beauty and the Beast. I remember that too. Yeah, I was just saying that as credits to like what's how I know that back when like, oh my gosh, I remember watching that as a kid.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Yeah. Do you guys know who or I guess what he was inspired by for the Game of Thrones?

SPEAKER_03 18:23

I think a lot of it was actual history for for some of these, you know, the political factions and that kind of stuff. He I think he really drew heavily on history, and I think he said that before, that that was where a lot of his inspiration came from. And then dragons. I don't know. And dragons.

SPEAKER_06 18:39

Well, and again, like the interesting thing is there are three dragons alive at the time of the main story, but like we don't know that. And so again, it's while it's a fantastical world where these things exist, they're not like the forefront, like they are not the main characters.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Technically, there aren't any alive when we start the story. You were correct, yes. So we think they're extinct and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:58

But like Nick's Nick talking about the the book switching back from chapter to chapter to chapter, like for to from different characters' perspectives reminded me like who would you even say the main character is? Like there it's not like a lot of things out there where there's like one character, one narrative we're following, and there's like occasional branching off things. It's like the book, I don't think there are main characters. Exactly.

SPEAKER_08 19:18

In the in the series, obviously they want, you know, it's it's follows the Starks, but I mean, like, that's it doesn't always come across that way, I don't think, in the in the books. That's the the main characters, you know.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Our first POV chapter is Bran, from a main character perspective. We do have the prologue with the um Men of the Night's Watch in the Wildlings, but Bran is our first POV character, so we do get his perspective first. But I I think in the show it's a lot more especially in the first season, it's a lot more stark.

SPEAKER_06 19:47

I almost think that they had to do it that way because they're the one redeeming family, it seems like. That's true. To some extent, yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Almost the one redeeming character. Well, yeah, Ned, yeah at a certain point.

SPEAKER_06 19:58

Uh rest in peace in that.

SPEAKER_08 20:01

He does die in everything. That is the that's the joke, right?

SPEAKER_06 20:04

Oh, wait, spoiler. You know who fin jumps now. Yeah, we're we're talking season one here, buddy. But um, Scene Bean, Sean Bean. Yeah. Oh, I love Sean Bean. Yeah. Again, just like he dies in the first movie of uh Lord of the Rings. You're right about that.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

He dies in this. He doesn't die in National Treasure. I thought he did die. I just remember him being the bad guy. No, he doesn't. He doesn't know. Does he just get arrested? Yeah, he gets arrested.

SPEAKER_06 20:29

Gotcha. I I feel like it wasn't even like a Mission Impossible 2.

SPEAKER_08 20:35

It was oh no, it was um it's he was in James Bond. He was in Goldeneye. Oh, yeah. I know he was in something recently because I thought Recently. Well no, I was just sorry. I was watching it recently. I was I was thinking it recently um because of our episode on James Bond. So that's a call back to James Bond because yeah, he was he was in Goldeneye. And you know what's funny? When I recognized him, I wasn't thinking Game of Thrones, I was actually thinking National Treasures. You didn't even think Lord of the Ruins National Treasure. Wow, that's great National Treasures.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Yeah, that you you're a true millennial for that.

SPEAKER_08 21:15

I guess so. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm like, yeah, that's the bad guy from from National Treasure.

SPEAKER_06 21:21

That's so funny. Wow. Oh my word.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Does he live longer as a bad guy than he does as a good guy?

SPEAKER_06 21:26

It seems like it, I think, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Bormir is hard to pinpoint exactly. Which which side he's on. We'll go chaotic neutral. Chaotic neutral. Yeah. That's funny.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

Uh where are we at? Well, do you want to go over our starter?

SPEAKER_08 21:42

Yeah, let's uh let's do

Where To Start And Why

SPEAKER_08 21:44

that. So um, as I said, there is a lot um of of different stuff that you could dive into with Game of Thrones. Where would you recommend somebody start?

SPEAKER_03 21:53

I would recommend starting with the HBO series, the you know, kind of the the classic. I know that the book started first, but I think that the series has a lot broader appeal as far as, you know, are you a are you into fantasy or not? You would you would get a lot more out of the show if you're not super into reading fantasy books. But um and and despite, you know, the feelings that people had when it ended, it was a really well-received show and it really reached I mean it's in the cultural zeitgeist so much that people who don't care about it know things about it.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Yeah, yeah, it's so true. I mean, yeah, that's a great point. Because I mean, in the 90s, early 2000s, I never heard of Game of Thrones ever. I mean, the books or anything. And then it's like, yeah, the show was so impactful, and honestly, it's kind of impressive because it was never a prime time show, right? It was just HBO Max. Yeah, it was on HBO. So even that by itself, being on an exclusive platform, is I mean, it's impressive, you know. Yeah, the big deal.

SPEAKER_06 22:50

I I'm sure I was probably HBO's like biggest money earner of all time. Yeah, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_08 22:55

I was just thinking it, I mean, it was really because the first couple of seasons would have been before streaming was much of a thing for sure.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

So like it would have been yeah, it was it was on the HBO channel.

SPEAKER_08 23:06

Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, really? Okay, wow. That's I that's what I'm watching. Yeah, HBO. Okay, it certainly does. I yeah, because I was just thinking, I'm like, that's part of the reason why I don't think that I saw, I mean, because I don't even know when they came out with like the the streaming service specific to HBO. That was much later. Yeah, and and so the way that I ended up watching most of them ended up being like getting the DVD box set after the season had already gone all the way through and then watching those. Like that was that was how I experienced it.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Dark Ages real callback.

SPEAKER_08 23:38

I mean, I'm not rich, I didn't have an HBO subscription. That's why you have to have a friend or parents to, yeah. Now I don't even want to pay for HBO Max because it's gotten so expensive. We don't need to get on that soapbox. Uh um, sorry, that so we got uh a starting point. Um I don't know, where where do you think? I mean, would you I guess I'll I'll throw it out here, Ben, because you've at least experienced it. Would you agree start somebody with the series over the books?

SPEAKER_06 24:06

I would agree. Uh just because again, like I think it's the most approachable, and I think that like they do such a good job. Like Jamie said, like, except maybe the last season, it was just so well received. Like the it's just it's it's so intriguing. All the actors are incredible, like uh the effects for the time especially were in were amazing, and cinematography, like it has a little bit of everything. Um, so yeah, that's an easy way to get into it.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

Yeah. I do remember having to make a slideshow for my friend though to help her understand which character it was which.

SPEAKER_06 24:39

I I had to look up family trees and stuff like that. Like that's it's hard to follow a little bit like that. But again, there's enough resources out there now that you can follow it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 24:48

I was in surprisingly, like despite the fact there are so many characters, I there are some times where it feels that those like with so many characters that you're following, it feels convoluted. And at least from my end, like I've never been, I don't know, I I guess confused by like I wasn't, you know what I mean? Like I did the characters are memorable enough that that when it came back to them, I wasn't like, oh, I forgot who this person was or whatever. Like I something about I don't know if it's just because the show's so good or whatever, or just the the quality of it, but I never necessarily felt completely lost. Like you know, you you definitely have to be paying attention, but like you can. I don't know. That I don't know. I maybe that's just me. Because I I have had other shows where there are a lot of characters, and I do get like I'm like, this this is too many.

SPEAKER_06 25:33

Like I can't I can't keep up with all this, but I don't I think I think it helps a lot that everything's divided into families and houses. Yeah, they've all got colors.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Yeah, they all should ratchet probably Lannister. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_08 25:45

Yeah. Um, well, we usually go at this point and talk about uh our elevator pitch or our impassioned plea, Jamie. So if if you had to convince somebody in 30 seconds to a minute why they should watch or participate in the Game of Thrones fandom, what would you say to them? And you can feel free to use the camera. Mikey might bring some music in at some point. I just don't want to surprise you there. It just makes it seem more emotional, you know.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

It is an impassioned plea for someone to jump into this fandom. Yeah. Yeah, I would say, you know, if you like intrigue, you like mystery, you like a little bit of uh drama and backstabbing and and any sort of uh human relationships you can find, it's definitely a show for you. And if you like dragons, there's dragons, you know. I think that there's just a lot for everybody um to choose from as far as what appeals to them and and what would draw them in.

SPEAKER_06 26:40

Nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 26:41

Beautiful. Great. Memorable characters, I would say. But don't get too attached to them. That would be the my addition to that. You never know when you might do not get attached to anyone.

unknown 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

If you like a good plot twist, that's they'll get you there.

SPEAKER_08 26:55

That is true. Well, I think that brings us up to our break here. So we'll be back and uh have a little bit more to this discussion.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_06 27:13

Wow. Doesn't hype you up, does it? No. It shouldn't. Bring me down. So people died. Yeah.

The Red Wedding And Real Stakes

SPEAKER_06 27:23

One of the most memorable things that we can talk to, especially like uh we as we get into like fandom cultures, is the Red Wedding, which you've mentioned. One of the most dramatic twists to an episode on TV kind of ever. So many people died. Wow. So many main characters died. Yeah. Which and uh and like usually the the show ends going to like the credits theme and stuff like that. This episode was like complete silence for like 30 seconds after this the show was over, and then it goes into that the reigns of Castomir, which is the the Lannisters theme.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Yeah also based on the extermination of an entire house.

SPEAKER_08 28:04

So who in all dies at the red wedding? I don't even remember.

SPEAKER_06 28:06

I know Rob Stark and his wife, Catelyn Stark. Okay. Um I mean that those are the main characters. Tully survives, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Uh I can't remember if it's Blackfish that's there or Edmir. I think Edmir because he's supposed to marry one of the fragrances. Yeah, he survives, yeah. Um and it's it is a shock because you know, drawing on medieval culture, the guest right is really important. You know, some once someone's eaten your bread and salt, you're they're under your protection. And that was not honored, yeah. Yeah. Um but there's I think one of the best visuals of the entire series after that when they parade John's body with Greywyn's head.

SPEAKER_06 28:50

I mean Rob's body.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Sorry, Rob's body with Grey Wynn's head with his iron crown on it, and it's just so haunting. Yeah. And oh that was so beautiful. They did a great job with that.

SPEAKER_08 29:00

I don't remember that part.

SPEAKER_06 29:02

I think that's technically the start of the next episode. Because that's when Arya has made it to where the wedding is, knowing that the Starks were there, and then they see her brother's body. Yeah, and she sees her brother's body carried out with his wolf's head stuck to his body. So yeah. Dark, dark stuff. Michael, you uh we convince you to watch it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

It's it's so shocking. You just really don't expect and and even though Martin takes the Kill Your Darlings directive really seriously, as we saw with Ned Stark in the first season, you just still are not expecting so many main characters to meet their end at that.

SPEAKER_06 29:43

Especially where it is in the overall art overarching plot of the show. Like Rob Stark has been named King of the North, he's built up this giant army, he's had a couple of military victories, he's heading south to go take on the Lannisters, and then this is what happens.

SPEAKER_08 29:57

It looks like the Starks are on the up and up at that point.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

And the phrase are not a super powerful house. Oh no, not at all. Yeah, they're they're kind of weaselly.

SPEAKER_06 30:04

Their whole thing is they have this bridge that they protect.

SPEAKER_04 30:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

Well, I I really respect that they're willing to kill off main characters because in this day and age, 2026, you will never, ever have a main character killed off. Ever. It is literally impossible. So I I really like I'm it's making me want to watch the show.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

The stakes are a lot higher. There's a lot more to lose.

SPEAKER_08 30:28

I'll say this though. After the red wedding, are there that many main characters that are lost? Because at that point, like it does, I feel like it follows the same set. Like, I always I was kind of worried after the red wedding that I was gonna lose, like, I mean, you know, fan favorites like Tyrion or John, uh, you know, or uh who else uh we do lose John momentarily. Valid, yeah. Like, I mean, but those ended up being ended up being the the main characters later on, and they uh I think all of them make it to the end. Yeah, well, actually that's not true, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

Yeah, I mean, by the time we get to the end, we're losing a lot of main characters because everything's kind of crumbling down around us. But um, yeah, that that was a point that was it should not have happened, you know.

SPEAKER_06 31:13

So Mikey, one thing we haven't mentioned is like, okay, so like we we talked about all this like political intrigue and whatnot. It's uh as you get further on in the series, it's it serves as a distraction almost to what they find is the real threat, which is a giant zombie army that's approaching from the north. So that's it starts to become like a a different war in that way where like some people are like, hey, we need to look this way, there's something bigger coming, and everyone's like, nah, don't worry about that. Like, I want the throne.

SPEAKER_08 31:39

Yeah, and the real most disappointing episode for me, which was the one that they built up so much, the huge battle that takes place at the you know, at uh um oh my gosh, is it Winterfell right now?

SPEAKER_03 31:51

The Battle of the Bastards, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:52

Well, we well, yeah, I'll say which one Battle of the Bastards or when the the night with the nice one with the night.

SPEAKER_08 31:58

The one that's so dark that you cannot see anything at all. And they build it up. It was this big, huge thing. So they it was I remember when it was in production and all this stuff, they talked about how like, oh, they spent eight weeks, you know, every single night going out there and having to film all this stuff, and I was like, Oh, this is gonna be awesome, it's gonna be amazing. And it was like they in the post-production, they just didn't bother to like backlight or bring something in there to like make it so you can see what's going on. And um, I was I that was the real that was the true disappointment for me anyway. I guess it's not fair.

SPEAKER_06 32:30

Well, that that's a good segue into our like hot take section of the fandom culture.

Finale Fallout And Daenerys Debate

SPEAKER_06 32:34

So let's let's get it out of the way. The biggest hot take of this fandom, the final episode and the way that the series ends. Jamie, what's your overall opinion on it?

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Yeah, so I think I think the final season in general felt just really rushed.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

You know, we got fewer episodes in the last two seasons than we had had in any previous seasons, and it felt like so much time had taken place across the previous seasons, and then we just got crammed in so much action, so much plot in the past, you know, the in the last six episodes, you know. So the um the feeling was rushed. It felt like, you know, the showrunners didn't want to be there anymore. Um, but then by the time you get to the final episode, which you're never gonna please everyone with a final episode. No one's ever gonna be happy with the way a series ends. It's just not possible. But again, it just felt like they just kind of phoned it in. Yeah, a little bit. And and people walked away feeling kind of ripped off, I think, was was the main vibe at the end of that. I mean, they could have ended it the same way if they had wanted to, and I think still had a better reaction if they'd have done it better, so yes.

SPEAKER_06 33:44

Stretched it out a little bit, yeah. Because again, like they cram like two whole wars into the final three episodes, essentially. And so it's it's it'll it's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Yeah, and they've spent you know, six seasons building up all the stuff that's supposed to happen, and then it's just off and so on.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

Yeah. Are there any fans out there that love the finale? I've not heard them.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

I haven't heard them. You know, the complainers are always louder, but I I definitely I was telling Ben that I was re-reviewing some of the like synopses that people wrote up after episodes aired, you know, and the comments on the final synopsis for the one I was reading, the synopsis had, you know, just a guy who was writing his take on it, but it was it was mostly like what happened. And then the comments on it were kind of 50-50. There were some people that were like, okay, you know, that's what I expected or whatever, but no one that was glowing reviews, and then there was a lot of like, man, what?

SPEAKER_08 34:38

Yeah, yeah. Can I say that? I mean, I I really I truly did enjoy the second to last episode. Like that was I I thought it was really good.

SPEAKER_04 34:45

See, Nick, I was saying you're you are the one that I think would actually like the finale.

SPEAKER_08 34:49

I mean, out of anyone I know, I I so one thing to to understand throughout the like why I think a lot of people were so angry about the finale is the fate of Daenerys Targaryen. That was the one that like I when people bring it up, it's like that's ridiculous. I have a lot to say about that. And to me, it made perfect sense.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Yeah, I like she was on that path.

SPEAKER_06 35:11

Yes, agreed, and like having like my my whole thing is like I so I watched the finale, I didn't touch it for like two years, came back and rewatched the whole series, and they do lay out like her madness kind of building, and that's like yeah, I think that was the biggest thing is like because these were like over a year between uh seasons and stuff like that, you don't get that full build-up, and and so like yeah, when you go back and re-watch it, there's definitely some moments of so Daenerys starts with nothing, Michael. She's bit she's got a royal name, but she's an outcast because everyone's hunting her because they want to kill off that family, and so she's married into like these wandering nomad like army, and she ends up taking control of them through power, like, and then rescues a bunch of slaves and builds up her army more and more.

SPEAKER_08 35:56

She is one of the I mean, from the beginning, you're you're kind of rooting for her because she's you know the underdog persona and actually has a moral compass compared to some of the other characters that are here. Like, there's a lot of the the audience is behind her and wants to see the happy ending with with her.

SPEAKER_06 36:13

And I I do think that that's why like so many people were disappointed, because again, if she's one of the main characters, one of the main moral things to latch onto in this show, and then all of a sudden, the very last episode, the biggest thing is she kind of goes crazy with power and like Jon Snow, her ally slash lover, slash nephew. Yeah, well, they didn't know until very very late to their relationship the Luke and Leia situation. A little bit, yeah. Well, because yeah, Jon Snow was born as a bastard, and so he didn't know who his lineage was, etc. etc. But like no one did really. Um, but yeah, so then like yeah, that just the complete madness that took over. Everyone's like, wait, that's not Daenerys, that's not the Daenerys we know and like are been rooting for. But like it the signs have been there.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Meanwhile, her father was a king, literally the mad killed Targaryen king, and he was called the mad king. So they're showing you that she has his madness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:10

And I mean, what's the the phrase with Targaryen every time a Targaryen is born?

SPEAKER_03 37:14

And it's either madness or greatness. Yeah. Whatever, however, it's exactly phrased, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 37:18

And then is that that's what the house of dragon is about. Like it's before Aries Targaryen, but like way before. Yeah, like a thousand years before. A thousand?

SPEAKER_03 37:26

So, yeah, so you get to a knight of the seven kingdoms, and egg, the little boy in that, is Daenerys' great-grandfather.

SPEAKER_08 37:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

And then in the House of the Dragon, like the sort of the main characters are his great-great-great great grandparents. So we're going way further back. Way back, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:44

Like the Starks aren't even a thing.

SPEAKER_08 37:46

They're there, but was there a planned series at one point that was supposed to be like the one one generation before? Maybe that's what it was. There have been civilian.

SPEAKER_06 37:55

Yeah, there have been several spin-offs that were rumored and then killed. Like uh, there was supposed to be one about following Jon Snow after the series ends.

SPEAKER_08 38:04

There was supposed to be one is that killed?

SPEAKER_06 38:07

It might still be up in the air, but from I mean, uh from what I heard, it was kind of killed. I think part of it I I think part of it had to do with Kid Harrington and some stuff that happened there, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

He's busy.

SPEAKER_06 38:18

Yeah. Well, he was supposed to be big in Marvel, but then that didn't happen. I don't even know that who was he gonna play in. Yeah, who was he gonna be? He was gonna be I can look it up. I can't remember Michael. He he it involves the sword and it was during the Eternals. Oh, okay. He played someone's love interest in the I think it was the Eternals. And he was supposed to like become essentially the King of the Black Knight or something like that.

SPEAKER_08 38:41

I don't know that I ever I I think I watched part of the Eternals and then never finished it. Yeah, look up Kit Harrington.

SPEAKER_04 38:46

Yeah, it was the Eternals. Um he played Dane Whitman, who is the Black Knight. Nice.

SPEAKER_06 38:51

So even that was supposed to be a thing, and then Marvel, you know, went a different direction, and so that might have been part of it.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Like he might have signed a big contract with Marvel and then there's been half a dozen other show spin-offs that have been greenlit and then dropped, I think. So yeah.

House Of The Dragon And Spin-Offs

SPEAKER_06 39:07

So we talked a little bit about like so what what are your overall takes on House of the Dragon? Since this is like a kind of like our quote unquote outside the fandom sort of thing. And these it's like tangential. Yeah. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:17

Yeah. Um, so with both of those spin-off series, I like I like them both for different reasons. You know, House of the Dragon, we're way back further in history and we're dealing with a lot of the political intrigue that is the Targaryen house. It deals a lot with succession, and you know, should the oldest male heir who's further down in line inherit the throne over the female heir who's been named, and there's a lot of backstabbing and and that sort of thing. And a lot more dragons. A lot of dragons. A lot more dragons. Although sort of spoilers, although we know that there's no living dragons at the beginning of our current series, uh, most of them don't make it out of the dance with the dragon.

SPEAKER_06 39:54

So it's it becomes a civil war amongst the Targaryen family.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Yeah, the greens versus the blacks, and and all based on succession, who should sit the throne.

SPEAKER_06 40:03

Yep. And yeah, so every side has dragons, and so it's a giant war of dragons.

SPEAKER_08 40:08

So yeah, as Jamie said, that Where when does that so when does the war of dragons actually take place? Was that in the It's the second season or at the end of the second season?

SPEAKER_03 40:17

So the the Battle of Rooks Rest is where we really see like dragons fighting dragons. And I thought I thought it was really well done. That was a heart breaking episode, yeah. I had so I I watched the series with my parents, which gets awkward sometimes because it's HBO, so there's a lot of nudity, there's a lot of sex scenes and stuff. Um, but they're like, you have to watch it with us because we don't know what's happening. So you have to tell us like who's that guy? What's he doing? Why is he here? And um, so we were watching the end of that, and I cried so hard. I had to tell them I understand that dragons aren't real and that that's not a real animal that died, but I was so upset. But I thought they did, I thought they treated it really well. I enjoyed that um the end to that season, and I'm excited for the next season to come out. There's been a lot of hot takes on House of the Dragon as well. There's a lot of people who don't think the showrunners are treating the material like it should be treated. I'm enjoying it. I think it's great.

SPEAKER_08 41:10

As there always will be. I don't know if this is true or not, but at least to me. So it as you got into the later seasons of Game of Thrones, uh, the that it became very, very plot focused. There was less gratuitous nudity in sex scenes. I agree with that. And it feels like they made a 1-8. Like when I started into House of Dragon, I I felt like they went back to to season one Game of Thrones level nudity and sex scenes.

SPEAKER_07 41:34

I do think they front load it to get people in. I really did. I really think they've got a lot of things.

SPEAKER_06 41:37

I do think that that's what especially the original series was like the big shock and awe factor of you know, like, oh well, they're having this discussion in a brothel. And it was just like, yeah, there's so many brothels in the streets.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Same with House of the Dragons, how many brothel scenes, and then they're like, oh, let's actually do some real stuff.

SPEAKER_08 41:50

Yeah, I think that's what like surprised me when I started watching the new because I I guess I was so used to the later seasons of Game of Thrones. I was like, okay, you know, like it's been very plot-driven, whatever, and then it came very much, it's like, all right, there's you know, boobies in your face.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

Well, you know, especially when HBO was one of the few things you had to pay separately for. They're like, we need sex and we need violence, or else people are not gonna pay this separate fee. So I think it kind of became a little hallmark of their their shows. But um, they I think the same thing in House of Dragons, they kind of back off on it a little bit and start getting into like actual plot.

SPEAKER_06 42:22

Yeah, this is season two, especially like as as the war is picking up, especially because like, yeah, the the first the front half is all taking sides and figuring out like who's gonna be with who, and then as they get into the war, then that's more focused.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

You're fighting over too. Very valid, actually.

SPEAKER_06 42:39

That's funny.

SPEAKER_08 42:40

Uh well why don't we it jumps in time too, right?

SPEAKER_06 42:42

Yeah, there's a there's like a time skip in there.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Yeah, so you have so and there's also opinions though about the actors that played the characters young and the who's playing them old and that sort of thing. Although you've got Matt Smith. I was gonna say, is he still in it? Yeah, looking like the Walmart Witcher, his his Damon Targaryen. He's he's a character you love to hate.

SPEAKER_06 42:59

So absolutely moments, though, which has been very interesting. Yes. Yeah. Uh Millie Alcock, super super girl. Supergirl, yeah. Is in the first season. Okay. Nice. Raina?

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Rainera. Ra's also everyone's name is like a variation on the same thing. So you've got Rainiera and Rainice, who are uh aunt and niece kind of sort of thing. And then you've got three Aegons and an Aemond and a Damon.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

Honestly, that's kind of like Lord of the Rings. A little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

Everyone's got the same name with one different letter.

SPEAKER_06 43:32

Uh Nick, well, why don't we start shifting into our bigger discussion about the main game with Run series and kick us off with some would you rathers?

Would You Rather In Westeros

SPEAKER_08 43:39

Let's do it. Um we got a 50-50 here, so you gotta pick one of them. Would you rather support House Stark or House Targ Targaryen?

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Um, you know, the Starks seem like a more redeeming house, so but the Targaryen do have dragons. So I mean I think I'd have to go Stark.

SPEAKER_05 43:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_08 43:54

Uh serve as Hand of the King or Commander of the Knight's Watch.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Mm, I think they both have to deal with some really unsavory characters. But I'd say the ones that the Hand of the King deals with probably smell better.

SPEAKER_08 44:08

So I mean Hand of the King is is a little more glamorous too. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 44:12

A lot more pressure, though, and power and pressure. Yeah. So the commander of the Night's Watch, the Knight's Watch, Michael, like so there's a giant wall at the north of this you this world that's supposed to be keeping out the wildlings, the barbarians, and these zombies. Others. Yeah. And uh but all the people that they that work on the Night's Watch and at the wall are prisoners usually. Like instead of like getting killed, you can go serve your life in as a watchman. Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

They they take no wife, they father no children, they wear no crowns, they hold no lands.

SPEAKER_08 44:45

There is some respect to it though. Like they that they are so even though they are our prisoners, there's like a it commands some level of of something. Yeah, it's like a military service where you're like, Yeah, yeah, that's a good word. Yeah, dignity.

SPEAKER_03 44:59

Yeah, yeah, you're protecting the realm.

SPEAKER_08 45:01

Um would you rather have uh Varys network of spies or Littlefingers?

SPEAKER_03 45:07

Um I I definitely would go with Varus because he has you know children's spies. I think they're way more conspicuous. His little songbirds. And yes, his birds. And I think just in general, he seems like he has better intentions than Littlefinger. I I don't know for sure, but I think he's a more scrupulous guy if he can be, as the master of whispers.

SPEAKER_08 45:27

So much as he can be. Yeah, I you I feel like you do like him better. Littlefinger, I at least for me, anyways, couldn't stand him. Not a likable character. Yeah, 100%. Um, would you rather have a dragon or be able to warg?

SPEAKER_03 45:42

That's a tough one. I'd rather have a direwolf than a dragon.

SPEAKER_08 45:46

I guess we should say this for anybody that has it maybe isn't aware what is what is war. It's for Michael, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 45:51

Yeah, so I'm always representative of our larger audience who doesn't know all the non-fan, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Um so it's which does it does show up in Lord of the Rings as well, but it's the ability to put your consciousness into an animal. And specifically wolves for the Stark family, um, they can warg into their dire wolves and experience the world as the wolf. Um I I think I would go warg, but the I don't like the idea of warging into the animal. I want a dire wolf, but I don't want to do that to them. Based on how it turned out for Hodor, I don't think it's comfortable for the wolf.

SPEAKER_08 46:28

Would you rather be mentored by Tywin Lannister or Elena Tyrrell?

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Easy. Elena Tyrrell. She's am I allowed to swear? She's a bad bitch. One of the best lines in the whole series when she says to Jamie, tell Cersei, I want her to know it was me. Yes. Well, it was it's not in the book delivered that way, but it was delivered so well in the show. It was perfect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 46:51

Um would you rather study with the Maesters at the Citadel or the Faceless Men at the House of Black and White?

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Faceless men are way cooler. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:00

With it matches your rogue tendencies as well.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

As I will refuse to play any DD character other than a rogue. Uh that wasn't triggering. Yeah. Yeah. The Citadel is just a bunch of old dudes.

SPEAKER_08 47:13

Fair. Very fair, yeah. Yeah, the uh what is it? I I so I didn't even fully completely understand the I mean, I feel like they're meant to be mysterious in some way, but I'm sure there's there's lore that I'm not aware of. I just remember the entire uh storyline with Arya and the faceless man. I was just always so confused about what I think. They cover it way more in the book.

SPEAKER_03 47:33

Yeah, yeah. It's you know, it's an assassin. Sure.

SPEAKER_06 47:36

Basically, uh but the the assassins, Michael, have the ability to shape shift their face to look like anyone. Ah and like yeah, and they like the situation. Kinda, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:45

Yeah. But it's also adjacent to a religion as well. So there's like a little bit of worship to a deity who's kind of kind of the god of death, yeah, right? Like it's interesting.

SPEAKER_08 47:55

Uh would you rather spend a year at the wall or a year sailing with the gray joys?

SPEAKER_03 48:00

Oh, the gray joys creep me out. That and that's why I put it up there. It's like, yeah. Creepy dudes. Although they do have a really cool house words. We do not sew. Those are cool house words, but they're creeps, every one of them. They are creeps.

SPEAKER_06 48:13

I I can't think of a single gray joy that I'm like. Uh yeah, I would like to spend time with them. No. Well, what was it?

SPEAKER_08 48:18

Theon had some redeeming qualities eventually.

SPEAKER_03 48:21

For like four and a half minutes.

SPEAKER_06 48:22

After so much happened to him. It took cutting off part of him for him to get there. Yeah. Oh, man.

Best Arcs Worst Endings Biggest Twists

SPEAKER_08 48:32

Um, all right. Well, larger, larger discussion questions now. Who wants to kick us off?

SPEAKER_04 48:36

I'll uh I'll jump in here. What what character do you find to have the most kind of interesting arc over the series?

SPEAKER_03 48:45

Yeah, I think um it's hard, really all the Stark children, they they start out in extremely different places than they end up. So I'd say probably John of all of them, but um, and you know, him starting out as not even really a Stark child kind of adds to that. But yeah, I I think each of them goes through the story in a way that you almost don't expect.

SPEAKER_08 49:08

So I th I'll be surprised that's who you went with. Because for me, it's for sure Tyrion. Yeah, yeah. I love I mean, I guess he was the he's the fan favorite for a reason, but like I I don't know. It his his change over the course of the series was was fascinating. You know, from being somebody that you didn't necessarily root for to uh becoming this, I don't know, I the the ultimately I would say he is kind of like the the true North morality a little bit of the of the series in a lot of ways, especially when you know things go so go south with Daenerys.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Yeah, he definitely is by the time he's her hand, um the the voice of morality that we need.

SPEAKER_06 49:47

He doesn't start that way. Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

Yeah, he does I mean, as far more just kind of in in less consequential ways. He's he's not a moral character, but um I never really rooted against him. Oh yeah. I always thought he was, you know, he's he's always he's got a tiny bit of that little um the the wise guide or teacher character that I always love, you know, the Obi-Wan and A little bit, yeah. He's got a lot of things. You know, he's he'll people into saying, you know, trust yourself and do what you need to do and the rest of the world be damned. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:16

And at least in the books, they definitely represent him as much more of a like well-read person. Like he's the one who like knows so much about all the families and the history of the world and stuff like that. Because uh, Michael, for context, he was born a a dwarf. So like his he's kind of like an outcast of his family, and like so like he's always kind of put picked on, pushed down, etc. So he kind of like he's he's often off gallivanting and doing whatever the heck he wants, but like he does genuinely put a lot into studying and like yeah, learning about everything. Nice. Um, well, uh along those lines, what character do you feel like had the most disappointing end of the arc?

SPEAKER_03 50:56

I think also Jon Snow.

unknown 50:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:59

Um, you know, just the way I read. So a lot of the story is based on prophecy and and interpreting you know things that we we think might happen. And there's an arc of the prince who was promised, who's supposed to be the one that's to guide this world through the threat of the others and the long winter and that sort of thing. And you get the idea that it should be John, yeah, based on you know, a song of ice and fire, and he is the product of the house of fire and the house of ice, and and so you expect a big dramatic ending for him. And we don't have the end of the books, so Yeah, it could be coming.

SPEAKER_04 51:33

Fingers crossed. Who knows?

SPEAKER_06 51:35

But in the series, like in the series of a real disappointing end. So he ends up, he ends up spoiler alert, he ends up killing John Snow Daenerys and his his lover, and uh just basically gives up everything and just goes back north of the wall. Just like to go live out in the wild. Right. Okay. And again, yeah, he's and like the last couple seasons, like he's really building up in like uh like respect of others, and like he's taking on leadership and stuff like that, and then all of a sudden he's like, nah, yeah, I'll see you guys.

SPEAKER_03 52:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:08

Yeah. I for me, the most disappointing arc actually is Jamie Lannister.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

I didn't want to see him. Well, what part of it?

SPEAKER_06 52:17

Well, the specifically the very, very end, how he dies. Um, so they're building up Jamie and his sister, who was the queen for a long time, have like a weird bad uh weird relationship uh of more than just familial uh twins. They're twins, but they also yeah, they have three children together. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 52:40

Yeah, there's some of that.

SPEAKER_06 52:41

But I mean again, tying into historical things, it was like for a lot of these families, at least uh how this they write it, a consolidation of power. Like we're gonna make this super Lannister, uh essentially.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

Um Joffrey was a super Lannister, give him that.

SPEAKER_06 52:55

Super in some ways, but anyways, so like like he's just always sticking up for his sister in the first couple seasons, and then they start to like take that away from him, and we start to see like a more noble self, like a more uh someone who's thinking outside of just his family and stuff like that. And they're building that up, and then the very last episode, he runs back to Cersei's arms and they die together.

SPEAKER_08 53:18

And I'm just like makes a lot of sense though.

SPEAKER_06 53:21

It does, but it's just so disappointing. Yeah, because again, they've just they did so much work in the he like kind of has a will they won't thing sort of thing with Brienne of Tarth, and like then all of a sudden he's just like, Oh no, like my sister's about to die, I need to be with her. Like uh again, it all makes sense, it's just disappointing.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

I was written for Brienne and Tormond, though. So I mean, yeah, Torment, uh one of my favorite characters.

SPEAKER_08 53:44

I'm glad that you brought up Joffrey though, like, because that's one that I want to. So that was I I wanted to to I don't know, just bring up the fact that this kid no longer acts because he was so good at his job. Everyone hates him, like everyone hated him, and so because of that, he stepped out of the limelight, doesn't do anything with with acting anymore. And I I don't know, it's it's mind-boggling, I guess. I I don't know. I I hate that we've talked about this before with other actors and stuff like that that have been bullied out of roles and stuff like that. But I don't know. I just there's something to be said there because even though, yes, you do hate Joffrey, yeah, he plays him so incredibly well. Like it is incredibly uh Jack Gleason is the actor's name.

SPEAKER_06 54:29

Yeah, he's also Joffrey. Very young him in Batman, yeah. Yeah, but no, he plays like uh Joffrey is very much like your typical spoiled brat prince who And he does such a good job with that character. He's power hungry and thinks that he deserves everything and takes things from people in ridiculous ways sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

So there's a couple of roles that I feel like the actor brought so much more to the character than was even in the book. You know, uh Jack Gleason is one of them with Joffrey, and Joffrey was a rich character in the book, so it's yeah, you know, he had a lot to work with, and he still brought more to the role. I think Richard Madden playing Rob Stark brought way more to that role than was in the book. He did such a great job with it. And Olena Tyrell, you know, some of these characters that are kind of they're good characters, but the actors get on the screen and they do so much more with them. It's just really fun to see.

SPEAKER_08 55:20

Whose turn is it? Mine? Yeah. Yeah. Um so uh we've kind of covered this a little bit, but I didn't know if there was any other plot twists you wanted to talk about. Um so the series is known for its plot twists, Michael, as we've already kind of led to. Um what are some of the things or what's uh one that shocked you the most?

SPEAKER_03 55:38

Um we could also say Joffrey's wedding and his step. The purple wedding, yeah. That was shocking. That was that was well done and and pretty surprising. I would I'll veer off a little bit from the main show though, and go to Another Seven Kingdoms, and I won't say anything because I know it's real spoilers because it's happening right now, but um the end of the the first season, the well, I think it might have been the penultimate episode, but um we have we have a real good character death there that yeah that I was waiting for.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

It was one of those situations where I was like sitting there watching my parents like what's gonna happen, what are their faces gonna look like?

SPEAKER_03 56:12

I did like with the red wedding, that kind of thing. I'm like, I know what's coming.

SPEAKER_08 56:15

Was that I I was under the impression that that was a limited series. Are there is there going to be more than one? I think there's gonna be more than one.

SPEAKER_03 56:21

Well, they're working on the next season right now, and I think it's uh scheduled to come out next year. Oh, okay. If I'm correct.

SPEAKER_06 56:27

Yeah, I mean the book itself is not very long, especially compared to Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_03 56:31

So it'll be interesting to see what what all they do with it, but it does take place over a long period of time though, so they could do a ton with it. And the little kid who plays egg is the most adorable thing I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_08 56:41

Yeah, so you know he's gonna die eventually. No, he doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 56:44

He doesn't in this series. We know the history, and he does not die. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 56:48

He has to go become king.

SPEAKER_03 56:50

Yes, my dog is named after him. He's he's so cute.

SPEAKER_06 56:53

That's funny.

SPEAKER_03 56:54

Oh, also, um oh no, I started to say a different a different surprise, and now I've lost it in my brain.

SPEAKER_06 57:01

Well, Nick, Nick, do you have a favorite twist?

SPEAKER_08 57:04

Who I I mean I I would definitely have to to agree with you with Joffrey's death. That was that was that was definitely a shock. I was not expecting um him to get killed off, especially with I mean, anytime you got like a big bat in a show and and he gets taken out. Now that's the the cool thing is that it does take over to an even you know I mean, there's plenty of people that you root against in the show, but there are uh other evil characters that show up throughout the show that then you're like, okay, you know what? I lost the person that I I love to hate, so who am I gonna get? There's more. There's more. You've got options, which is nice.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

I will say, um, the one I thought of it's not really a spoiler, I think, but the way they presented it was really great was The Mountain and the Viper. Oh, and that episode was paced so well. And I mean, you don't know what the outcome's gonna be, so it's not really a spoiler, but um the way that that pans out, yeah, it shocked yeah, that was a good one.

SPEAKER_06 57:59

The spirit then that involves someone I was gonna bring up to Michael, you know whose career this really launched? Who's that? Pedro Pascal. Yeah, we had Game of Thrones thanks for Pedro Pascal. He was in what, like six episodes, maybe. Tops, yeah. Dar new Game of Thrones. His death is but his death, he was played the Viper.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, he's a great character, he does a great job with the character.

SPEAKER_06 58:21

And but this launched his career. Like he was a nobody when it started, I feel like. Yeah, I never had seen him before. Wow, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

And then he's in everything.

SPEAKER_04 58:29

Yeah, literally everything.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:31

All right, well, we got time for one more question, so I'll I'll ask the last

What We Would Fix

SPEAKER_04 58:35

one here. Um, there's so many good questions on this.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

I'll keep talking until midnight.

SPEAKER_04 58:42

If you could change one thing about the show's ending, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 58:46

Yeah, specifically for me, I feel like the battle for the Iron Throne should have happened before the battle with the others. I think that felt more significant. The way that they the story frames it, that's the bigger threat, that's the bigger problem, and that's what we should be more concerned about. And the who wins the Iron Throne should have an effect on that battle. So that's the main thing I would switch up. And they could have come to the same ending a different way, but if they had done those two things in backwards order, to me, it would have felt more true to the series.

SPEAKER_08 59:21

Stretching it out longer, right? That's the big key thing. Like just instead of that one last instead of six six episodes. Six episodes in the last season, yeah. And a full season at the very least. You're right, there was just so much that happened. Were they were there any super episodes? I can't even remember.

SPEAKER_06 59:36

Were there I think I mean they all started to be like over an hour by the end, but like yeah, I don't I don't know if there's anything over like an hour and a half. There's like an hour ten, hour fifteen, probably.

SPEAKER_03 59:45

I don't remember specific, but I don't think so.

SPEAKER_06 59:47

Yeah. Because like, I mean, especially we've like we two huge plot points of who's gonna win the iron throne and how are they gonna deal with this the threat of the the whites, like uh yeah, like uh but covering both of those in two to three episodes. That it was too much. Like it was too much. Because like we just went right from killing the Night King onto like, okay, well now we're gonna go take over the throne and the Lannisters and the way they did both of them felt like neither one mattered what happened in the end.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:19

Yeah. No, I would I would I mean that's a fair criticism. When people come in, I didn't say that it was rushed, it was not there was not enough there that they could have, you know. I i it could it should have gone on longer, truthfully. Like it should have gone on for two or three more seasons, and you know people would have watched.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:34

They didn't need to.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:35

That was the biggest show in the world.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:37

Why did it like why did they decide to end it in one last big season there?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:42

Did they my understanding was the showrunners were moving on to different projects?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:45

Is that what it was? Well that's a shame. The two of them were signed up for a trilogy for Star Wars that got canceled. So that I think that was part of it. Wow. I think part of it too was because they were starting to get to territory that George R. Martin hadn't covered at all. That you know, like they're like, we don't know how much more we can do with like that makes sense. So like they got as we said, um, an outline from George R. Martin of like what he was thinking of for the ending, and so they kind of covered it. But like, yeah, filling in all those plot holes, all those other things, like that was a lot. And so they're just kind of like, yeah, maybe we just this is how we end it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:19

Yeah, I don't think he had a plan to fill in those plot holes either. So they they were up against a lot.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:25

I mean, you know, George R. R. Martin's no plan is is better than you know, sequel trilogy's plan whenever they got there. I mean, it's you know what I mean? Like it's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:37

I can't I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:41

Yeah does not watch the show, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:44

I'm not the kind of person that that likes to be negative about my fandoms, you know. You you're in good company with me. I respect you. Yeah, we respect that. And if there's new content, I'm excited to consume it. And if it's not exactly what I pictured, okay, we'll just move on. If if all I really like is the books, I can just go back to the books, you know. So I I don't love to sit around and nitpick, you know, this should have happened and that should have happened, but there are definitely things that would have made me, you know, feel a little bit less sad at the ending.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:15

Yeah, nice. Well, that brings us to our uh our closing segment here a little bit.

What’s Next For The Franchise

SPEAKER_08 1:02:21

So what are the the next big things happening with the fandom? I know you've kind of alluded to House of Dragon. Is there anything else on the horizon for Game of Thrones?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

Well, we have talked about a few nebulous ideas that there are other spin-offs coming out. Um we do have another season of Annight of the Seven Kingdoms that's in production now, so we should see that soon, if if not next year. And then the House of the Dragon season three just premiered yesterday as we record. So we've got more of what's already in production. As far as I know, that I haven't heard anything that's brand new coming on the horizon, but yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:56

I mean, uh like back to the Jon Snow thing. I know that they're still kicking that around. If Kid Harrington and like some producers sign on, that that could get greenlit easily. Um we talked about the the Robert's Rebellion potentially being a series or like a one season sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:12

I'd love to see Aegon's landing and oh yeah, and and see West Ross before they saw dragons. Yeah. I think that would be a cool thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:20

Yeah, getting everyone's first glimpse of a dragon would be able to see incredible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:24

Aegon the Conqueror and Balerian the Black Dread and in the Flesh. I've seen a skull only.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:30

I feel like there's also like one following Arya afterwards as just like an assassin. Like I feel like that was kicked out around too.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:37

But yeah, I think in the show she said she was sailing west to find out what's west of Westeros.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:42

Yep, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

Which I don't know if that was necessary.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:46

Yeah, one of the other there's Westeros and the other con continent is Esos as an East. So and that's east of Westeros. On the line of Middle Earth, we we know.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:58

Well, we always uh I mean we're just very appreciative that you came out to meeting.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:04

We could like you know, we could keep talking for several more minutes, even if Mikey doesn't have anything to contribute.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:09

So take a nap, we'll keep talking. Yeah, it's been so fun. Thanks, you guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:13

Absolutely, thank you.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:14

Well, where are we headed next is the in the podcast realm?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:19

Well, we're actually having our very first return guest. So it's fun. Yeah, our friend Lindsay's coming back. Um, she originally did um Gilmore Girls. Oh my gosh. That was a long time ago. It was the Gilmore Girls episode. So she's coming to talk about Nick uh the Jonas brothers. I almost said Nick Jonas. I mean, that'll be part of it.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:39

Yeah, so uh yeah, this will be real interesting because yeah, uh, I I I kind of leaned towards this one because she's always telling me about the fandom. And so a big focal point, like a lot of times we cover the content itself of the fandom. This time I think we're gonna have a big discussion around the fandom itself, which I'm looking forward to. I don't know much about other than what Lindsay's told me, but it sounds wild. It's also our first band, our first word musical artist, like yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:03

I we talk about John Williams every single episode, but this is the actual band. Whatever it is. Get out your fandom bingo bingo card. We said John Williams.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:14

Yep, that's it has to come up in every episode. That's uh that's a goal. He does, yeah. And with that, I feel like that's a good place to end us. So uh we'll we'll see you guys next time. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:26

Well, we hope you enjoyed hearing about today's fandom. Thanks for joining us. Give us a follow on Instagram or threads at FOF.pod to stay up to date with all the latest, and check out the video version on YouTube at fandom of fandoms. Have a fandom that you want us to dive into? Send us an email at fandomofpodcast at gmail.com. Till our next adventure. Keep being passionate, keep being curious, and keep being a fan.